We have been desensitised....what we need is to start thinking like the generations of world war 1 and world war 2....the only people in the US who still have some sense of community awareness are the people in the Bible belt of the US.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at July 25, 2004 8:07 AM

I have to ask again this question"WHY DID NO ONE ON BOARD CONFRONT THESE MEN"?

Expired Visa's and they still got in! Come on people is everyone waiting on big brother to step in? They only help themselves and place blame every where else.Is it not time to ask some guests of our PENAL SYSTEM if they would like to serve in the all volunteer units that should you live you may have amnesty?

People to not be afraid of these cowards and have faith that no jury seated in this here America will convict any one of HOMELAND DEFENSE.

ME PERSONALLY WILL BE JUDGED BY TWELVE,NOT CARRIED BY SIX.

Posted by: Chuck at July 25, 2004 8:38 AM

Our elected leaders are now driving me crazy. They never talk in the terms I know they should bew using. Is this intentional or because they are still ignorant of the truth about Islam and how widespread the hatred for the West is? How could they be this ignorant?

I'm practically ready to drive up to Washington and sit on the Capitol steps myself with an armload of books for the President.

Posted by: Foehammer at July 25, 2004 9:56 AM

That is a very good idea. A scholarly sit-in. People will quietly assemble, bringing with them copies of the Qur'an, and the hadith of Bukhari or al-Muslim, and the biography of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq. And they will bring books -- in all languages, with passages highlighted and even inscribed on placards. There will be a few with that will have Sura 9:29 written out, and then other placards will have quotations from the major commentators on 9:29. A brigate of former Muslims, women and men, will carry quotations from Qur'an and hadith about the relative significance and worth of men and women, with appropriate passages from the Qur'an and from the sharia. There will be others carrying placards, each with some historical note about treatment of dhimmis. A few Indian-Americans may carry some that say "60-70 million Hindus massacred." Sikhs may carry placards about the Jihad declared against them at Patna. Armenians can carry placards about the genocidal campaign carried out by Muslims (not only Turks, either) against the "giavours." Copts, if their families are out of Egypt, can stand along, with posters telling of their own treatment at the hands of Egypt's Muslims -- including attacks and murders of Coptic priests, attachs on churches and even on schools for disabled children. Maronites, who speak Arabic but are misleadingly called "Arabs," can arrive, perhaps simply carrying the collected writings of Habib Malik, and reminding people of what happened at Damur and elsewhere. Bahai's may appear, and Christians from Pakistan and Indonesia, and Ibo who can hold signs reminding people of how Egyptain pilots, working for their fellow Muslims, helped to kill nearly a million Christians during the war for Biafran Indepedence. Francis Bok and some of the Lost Boys will tower over it all, reminding the Congressmen and the press -- if it dares to cover the matter -- of what has been happening to black Christians in the Sudan.

If the press, if Congress, if our leaders, presist in remaining silent, or to speak only gnomically about Islam, about Jihad and dhimmitude, then let it be thrown in their faces -- day after day after day. And when those who first come to protest, and to offer -- not lies but knowledge, both that contained in Qur'an and hadith (and perhaps a nice selection of quotes from recent sermons at Al-Azhar, or in Tehran, or all over the Saudi Kingdom, would also be useful)-- of course, with everything that is used also to be obtainede at a handy website, where people can consult. It is a melancholy truth that the governments of the Western world are inhibited from articulating what the problem is. Some are inhibited out of ignorance. Others are inhibited out of a naive belief that a "religion" simply must be worthy of respect, and cannot possibly be the source of our problem. Still others do not wish to confron reality because their own pathologies (unreasoning hatred of their own civilization, hatred of America, antisemitism) cause them to be handmaidens of the Jihad.

Who will see the need for such a permanent presence in Washington? And who will oorganize and who will help to fund it? The idea is not idiotic.

Posted by: Hugh at July 25, 2004 10:26 AM

Bravo Hugh, sardonic wit is unmatched. Many in Washington know the truth. However, the self-absorbed politicos in Washington won't take the chance of losing even one Muslim vote. Their campaign slogan will be, "Dhimmitude for the masses. Better dhimmi than dead."

Most Americans don't know the meaning of the term, and many would rather be a dhimmi than lose the ability to go the mall or watch their mind-numbing idiot boxes while in the comfort of their own homes. Surely these people will vote for whomever will allow them to maintain their standard of living. It's very sad.

Posted by: epg at July 25, 2004 10:41 AM

Reza, Does it snow in Arabia?????

Posted by: Djinn'nSquirt at July 25, 2004 11:33 AM

Yes, Hugh, all victims of jihad,
must unite to fight for our freedoms.
For if we don't, life on this earth
won't be worth living, our farms
and forest will become deserts,
our cities decay and creativity decline,
and as the light of civilization
dims, darkness will descend.

Yes epg, too late the dhimmis will find
their standard of living will be lost
along with their peace of mind.
We must educate our friends and family,
let the media and politicians know
that facing the truth can keep us Free.

Posted by: the poetess at July 25, 2004 12:44 PM

In order to permanently solve a problem, find the cause. Lame but convenient excuses like 'Muslims don't want to share the planet' are going to ignore the terrorism issue and thus NOT solve it. No Muslim has ever said that. In fact, they are asking the U.S. to withdraw its forces from 176 countries around the globe, and please "share the planet".

I love America and dearly wish its end to be different than that of Rome or Persia or Japan, but the arrogance leaves no other choice.

I have just left the U.S. disgusted by the townsfolk of Lynndie England welcoming her as a hero, while the whistleblower's parents had to board up their home - I cannot trust the American people any more.

American friends, read the Dec. of Independence, read the Federalist Papers, keep your army for defence, learn from history, otherwise: the Barbarians have arrived - it may take them 10 years or 100 years, but irrationality is the end of empires.

As long as you keep saying, "muslims want to rule the world", "muslims are a cult", "muslims are evil", you are not harming the muslims but rather ignoring the true causes of your most urgent problem. Nero liked fiddling!

Posted by: Upright at July 25, 2004 11:03 PM

Of course, they probably were musicians. Perfectly legit, but musicians can also be terrorists, or scouts/researchers for terrorists. Anyone, any seemingly harmless bunch of people, can be recruited by terrorists, to plot, plan and/or carry out terrorist acts. They've been recruiting non-Middle Eastern people, so why not musicians? Artists? Or women? Good cover. Oh, we're just musicians, sharing our culture with your people! How benign. If you put musicians or artists or other seemingly harmless groups through extra scrutiny, people would be up in arms. They'd accuse the govt of racism, of fostering a paranoid environment, etc.

As far as the expired visas thing, it's very disappointing that the US is so careless in this day and age. My spouse flew on a separate flight to myself and my children a couple of years ago (out of LAX), due to frequent flyer points. They almost refused to let us on the flight, saying I could be kidnapping my kids, that I needed a legal letter that gave my spouse's permission for me to fly with my own kids. And yet you let Syrians loose with expired visas!

Posted by: feralee at July 25, 2004 11:12 PM

Please visit The Human Rights Party.

The URL is http:/forums.delphiforums.com/western1

Posted by: Voltaire at July 25, 2004 11:56 PM

Sorry.

The URL is http://forums.delphiforums.com/western1

Posted by: Voltaire at July 25, 2004 11:57 PM

Here is a pertinent exchange I had with someone concerning Ms. Jacobsen's article:

Regarding the article you sent, there is a
preponderence of conflicting evidence. I don't know
if you are familiar with a website called
www.snopes.com. This website attempts to confirm or
belie various urban legends and unconfirmed reports.
I have found this website to be very unbiased and well
supported in its conclusions. Until recently, the
status of this story was undetermined. Now, it has
been updated:

I'll write my comments after each claim separately, but I want to make some preliminary comments first. The U.S. is held in the throes of a politically correct mindset wherein the government is taking risks and obfuscating damning evidence which might expose the worldwide Islamic jihad going on. President Bush is guilty of this too, but this is especially going on in the State Dept and other branches of the government. For instance, the reluctance for racial profiling, the insistance that Islam means "peace", the freeing of terrorists on procedural errors, and a whole slew of things that are going on and which I read about daily in my news reports. For some really incredible evidence of government negligence which includes the FBI, CIA, and others, read this book I ordered "Terrorist Hunter" about an Iraqi Jewess who did undercover work about the Muslim community and worked with the government and showed how they kept covering up for the Muslims. So the phenomenon that Mrs. Jacobsen indicates isgenuine and well known, and hasn't changed in the least despite 3 years since 9/11.
Second, Mrs. Jacobsen is not a fly-by-night. She is a respected journalist and even a fearless one (you see she was willing to go to India within 10 miles of the Pakistan border -- you need guts for that). She wasn't a hysterical matron. Even in the article you see that she didn't jump to conclusions and hysteria right away -- only after enough things had happened to indicate that something serious was going on.
Her article was sent all over the States and received tremendous exposure.It put the government in a very bad light. Obviously, the government wants to protect itself and cover up how negligent it's been.
The sequal to her article showed how many pilots and stewardesses wrote her that they have witnessed these strange goings on many times and they believe they are "dry-runs". This is the imput of others -- who she names -- not her own hallucinations. If this wasn't true, why would a normal, intelligent person be fear-mongering the whole US public? Look at Mrs. Jacobsen's previous writings and you'll see she is no sleazy writer.
You also have to ask yourself why the shenanigans which Mrs. Jacobsen described in her article occured only with middle Eastern men and nobody else on the plane.Are there no other musical bands carrying musical instruments with them to perform who travel on a plane? How come these Middle Eastern men (all of them) have such a pressing need to use the bathroom all the time? Why aren't they sitting in their chairs reading books or relaxing like everyone else, if they have no ulterior agenda?
The perceptive Mrs. Jacobsen did not indicate that the field marshals "sitting all around them" were looking at the Middle Eastern carefully or going after them to check what they were doing in the bathroom, as one would have expected from wary field marshals.
In brief, I think the article you sent me is a government attempt at damage control.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp

Origins: The "Terror in the Skies, Again?" article
written by Annie Jacobsen and published on
WomensWallStreet.com, in which she details her
experience with passengers (whom she viewed as
terrorists) on a 29 June 2004 flight from Detroit to
Los Angeles, caused quite a stir, to say the least.
That article contained a good deal of supposition, and
a follow-up article, identified as an "Opinion Piece,"
didn't offer much to validate author's assumptions.

As things turned out, although the events Ms. Jacobsen
claims to have witnessed on her flight did occur (more
or less), her interpretation of them (that they
involved a group of terrrorists making a dry run for
building a bomb in-flight) was erroneous. The men she
observed on her flight were exactly what authorities
told her they were: a group of Syrian musicians who
had been hired to play at the Sycuan Casino & Resort
near San Diego. Like any other group of passengers,
the men in musical ensemble talked to each other,
moved around, ate food, and used the restrooms while
the flight was in progress.

Read again her description in her first article of how they spoke to each other, used the bathroom is coordination with each other, defiant looks at other passengers, how they emptied their bags in the bathroom.

According to federal air marshals, Ms. Jacobsen
"overreacted":

Undercover federal air marshals on board a June 29
Northwest airlines flight from Detroit to LAX
identified themselves after a passenger,
"overreacted," to a group of middle-eastern men on
board, federal officials and sources have told KFI
NEWS.

This is not true. She says her husband was told privately by a stewardess that there were field marshals "sitting all around them" but no one identified themselves to her or her husband.

The passenger, later identified as Annie Jacobsen,
was in danger of panicking other passengers and
creating a larger problem on the plane, according to a
source close to the secretive federal protective
service.

Just read her account. She was calm and cool throughout the entire event, even though her fears were mounting with each additional strange behavior by the middle eastern men. At no point did she even get close to panicking; the most you could say was that she was very concerned, as anyone with eyes would have been too. The only point at which she was close to panicking was in the minutes before landing.

"The lady was overreacting," said the source. "A
flight attendant was told to tell the passenger to
calm down; that there were air marshals on the plane."

If the stewardess was told to tell Jacobsen that there were field marshals aboard, why did she also tell Jacobsen that she's not permitted to tell but is doing so anyway?

The middle eastern men were identified by federal
agents as a group of touring musicians travelling to a
concert date at a casino, said Air Marshals spokesman
Dave Adams.

Jacobsen wrote she became alarmed when the men
made frequent trips to the lavatory, repeatedly opened
and closed the overhead luggage compartments, and
appeared to be signaling each other.

"Initially it was brought to [the air marshals]
attention by a passenger," Adams said, adding the
agents had been watching the men and chose to stay
undercover.

Was it brought to the air marshals attention by a passenger, or had they been watching the men all along? Contradiction here.

Jacobsen and her husband had a number of
conversations with the flight attendants and gestured
towards the men several times, the source said.

"In concert with the flight crew, the decision was
made to keep [the men] under surveillance since no
terrorist or criminal acts were being perpetrated
aboard the aircraft; they didnít interfere with the
flight crew," Adams said.

The air marshals did, however, check the bathrooms
after the middle-eastern men had spent time inside,
Adams said.

FBI agents met the plane when it landed in Los
Angeles and the men were questioned, and Los Angeles
field office spokeswoman Cathy Viray said it's
significant the alarm on the flight came from a
passenger.

"We have to take all calls seriously, but the
passenger was worried, not the flight crew or the
federal air marshals," she said. "The complaint did
not stem from the flight crew."

The stewardess who spoke with Jacobsen told her that the staff was worried and everything was under surveillance. If the air marshals were concerned enough to check the bathroom after the Syrians used it and were keeping them under surveillance, why did they say that Mrs. Jacobsen was overreacting? If there was no alarm from the pilots or staff, how come there was a mass of FBI and airport security men waiting to interrogate the Syrians when the plane landed? Obviously the passengers couldn't alert all these officials while still on the plane.

Federal agents later verified the musiciansí
story.

'We followed up with the casino," Adams said. A
supervisor verified they were playing a concert. A
second federal law enforcement source said the concert
itself was monitored by an agent.

They freed the men shortly after questioning them, so how did they verify their story? Did they go down and check that the men performed, or did they make a call to the casino and ask if the men were slated to perform? How did they know that the owner of the casino is not a terrorist in cahoots with them who was prepared to give them a cover story? I bet you any money that they just called up the casino rather than doing a careful check.

After seeing all the incorrect info and damage control which the article has until now, you realize that all the "facts" brought in the response about verication by authorities, an agent being at the concert, etc. may be phony.

"We also went to the hotel, determined they had
checked into the hotel," Adams said. Each of the men
were checked through a series of databases and
watch-lists with negative results, he said.

Sure they can check into the hotel. Why not, especially if it's run by one of their friends. You don't need much intelligence to know that you have to provide cover for yourself and have a convincing story. They're not dopes.

The source said the air marshals on the flight
were partially concerned Jacobsenís actions could have
been an effort by terrorists or attackers to create a
disturbance on the plane to force the agents to
identify themselves.

Typical government frame up. Governments -- I see this in Israel all the time -- demonize dissidents by trying to frame them and accuse them of sedition, rioting, anti-government activities, etc. This line is so obviously false.What "actions" did Mrs. Jacobsen do that they are talking about, other than her husband speaking once with a stewardess? Ms. Jacobsen was a respected journalist who was traveling home. They want to accuse her of being in cahoots with terrorists to create a disturbance on the plane? And for the spurious goal of getting agents to identify themselves? You believe this bull?

Air marshals' only tactical advantage on a flight
is their anonymity, the source said, and Jacobsen
could have put the entire flight in danger.

What are air marshals doing on a flight and why are they anonymous if not to catch potential terrorists? This line makes it sound like their ultimate goal of being there is to be clandestine and Mrs. Jacobsen could have endangered everyone on the flight by exposing them. More frame-up. This whole article is just damage control.

"They have to be very cognizant of their
surroundings," spokesman Adams confirmed, "to make
sure it isn't a ruse to try and pull them out of their
cover."

This line takes the cake.

Someone who studies politics on a steady basis quickly learns how to spot the holes in stories disregards the propagandizing and mind-bending terms. I've also learned to be suspicious about government's agenda and goals.
Just the fact that Mrs. Jacobsen was an individual with no ulterior agenda, and she is revealing serious flaws in the government, already puts the facts seriously in her favor against the response of the government.

Posted by: mgardner at July 26, 2004 2:42 AM

Yes, and furthermore ...

Lotta chat about the Syrian band on Flight 327 but nothing on this most critical part of the WT article:

"a man of Middle Eastern descent locked himself in [the lavatory] for a long period. The marshal found the mirror had been removed and the man was attempting to break through the wall. The cockpit was on the other side " -- !?!? EXCUSE ME?

Folks, that should set off some major alerts but I don't see a trace of follow up. When? Where is the miscreant now? Why is the media completely ducking this -- are corroboration rules suddenly back in vogue?

...so, given that we KNOW they're probing, why isn't the Syrian band on extended vacation at taxpayer expense? I don't care if they passed the initial interview, visa or no visa -- they're Middle Eastern men who brought themselves to the attention of a flight crew with threatening, rule breaking behavior... "Sit down, boys, we need to talk. This could take a while."

We ARE at war with Islamofacism. We ARE being probed. We SHOULD take prudent countermeasures.

Posted by: tin man at July 31, 2004 8:42 PM