AHMADI MUSLIMS,eh! Talking about PEACEFUL JIHAD.Am cautious but perhaps there is a glimmer
of hope here? Especially as they're considered to be HERETICS.

Posted by: Morgane at August 1, 2004 7:46 AM

Ban the Quran...that will be THE only way....the Quran is Islams Mein Kempf....simple as that.......

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 1, 2004 8:06 AM

It would be good if it were true; I see new brands of Muslim appearing, such as Progressive Muslims but are they just wrappers?

it may be that these people are truly liberated Muslims i heard a report on the BBC in which a group of Muslims actually blamed Muslims for bringing Islam into disrepute, these were quite scathing rebukes(Omar Bhakri would call it apostacy)

Posted by: breadwinner at August 1, 2004 8:06 AM

"We have to join together to challenge the stigmas and our main theme is one of peace. In essence we are calling for a jihad - a battle for hearts and minds - to persuade people through our conduct and good deeds that Islam is all about peace."

If they want to convince us that Islam is all about peace and "good deeds," they are going to have to practice them exclusively. Saying one is about peace, while cutting off the heads of those who are not practitioners is an oxymoron. You can't have it both ways. Where are the examples of peaceful behaviour? Where is the tollerance to those who do not hold the same religious faith? Where are the soup kitchens for the starving and kindnesses for those who might never accept Islam as a religion? They don't exist. So, if they want to convince us that Islam is a peaceful religion, they have their work cut out for them.

As far as I can see it, Allah's worst examples of his peaceful and compassionate nature are the people who follow his Qur'an. Through their actions, they bring about the feelings of contempt that those who are not Muslim feel toward the Muslims. I would rather die (or die fighting) than believe in such rubbish.

Posted by: paula at August 1, 2004 8:19 AM

No we are not just wrappers. We are Muslims that deplore terrorism and who want to make a change. There are large numbers of peace-loving, open-minded "progressive" Muslims, but what we have to say does not get any coverage in the media because we do not fit the stereo-typical extremist Muslim profile. The media wants a long-bearded fire-breathing Muslim to report about.

Yes! We do exist, but it's hard to carry our message to non-Muslims because we get accused of just being "wrappers".

Also, asides from Ahmadis, other sects of peace-loving Muslims are: Aghakhan Ismalis, Bohras, Qadianis, and many Sufi groups. There are also large numbers of Muslims who don't associate themselves with any of these sects but love peace all the same.

Chan'ad Bahraini

Posted by: Chan'ad at August 1, 2004 8:27 AM

where do you stand on israel?

does your 'moderate' faith say yeah or nay?

Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 8:29 AM

The Ahmadiyyas have been persecuted in Pakistan as Infidels. The fact that they, and a handful of other tiny groups within Islam may abjure violent Jihad -- or may respect a prophet who made the mistake of appearing after Muhammad (another problem, because it implies that Islam was not fixed in stone a long time ago)-- merely clarifies the situation. A handful of small groups, most of them declared "not Islam" by the world's Muslims, and in many places subject therefore to the same kind of persecution that non-Muslims must endure, invite comparison with what is regarded as orthodox Islam -- and orthodox Islam suffers by the comparison.

But to make the mistake of assuming, for example, that all Sufis are otherworldly twirlers, whirling dervishes or gentle readers of Rumi, would be dangerous. For many a "revert" has begun down the path of Islam by laboring under delusions about the nature of Islam, finding out only later, and slowly, what its real teachings are. This is particularly true of women who marry Muslim men and decide to "revert" and then find out that what they thought Islam was all about turned out not to be true. For examples of this phenomenon, one could read "Leaving Islam" edited by Ibn Warraq, which is a collection of testimonies of ex-Muslims, both those born into the faith, and those who converted (reverted) to it.

Posted by: Hugh at August 1, 2004 8:57 AM

Paula said:

Where are the soup kitchens for the starving and kindnesses for those who might never accept Islam as a religion? They don't exist.

Actually, the Ahmadis, Aghakhan Ismailis and Bohras are all involved in several humanitarian, education, health, and rural development projects around the world, regardless of whether it is Muslims or believers of other religions who are benefitting. Also, many Sufi orders have a long tradition of handing out huge amounts of free food to the hungry, once again regardless of faith.

forrestshalom said:

where do you stand on israel?

You'll have to be more specific. I defend the right for Israel to exist, but I obviously don't agree with all of its actions. What exactly about Israel do you want my opinion on?

Posted by: Chan'ad at August 1, 2004 9:28 AM

Chanad:

I know that Ahmadis reject violent jihad, but do they also reject the sharia and humiliating treatment (dhimmitude) for non-Muslims?

Be honest, now.

Posted by: Suzan at August 1, 2004 10:07 AM

And do they support the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate?

Posted by: CGW at August 1, 2004 10:28 AM

For the love of God!

Why we so willing to grasp at a peaceful solution that we would allow our selves to believe this garbage. If this is true and we all know how much faith we can put in the words and promises of Muslims, this is a very small sliver of hope.

I, for one, do not put an ounce of trust into this report, the fundamental message of this site is that Islam and the Koran by their very essence obliterate free will and replace it with blind adherence to an ignorant dogma of the stone age.

But even if this is 100% accurate, what about the other One Billion, Two Hundred and Forty Nine Million, Nine hundred and Seventy Thousand Muslims (give or take) that believe the message of Mohamed allows the infidel to be decapitated,rpaed or mudered.

Believing this crap is just what the PC politicians would like us all to do.

As Mohammed Atta said, “just be quiet and everything will be ok”

Come on folks, way too little, 1400 years too late!

Toro

Posted by: Toro at August 1, 2004 10:38 AM

Chanad - The above posters have asked the pertinent questions. We are awaiting your answers.

Posted by: epg at August 1, 2004 10:42 AM

Toro, it is true that Ahmadi Muslims reject violent jihad. In the 19th century they were accused of being "British spies" (they were founded in British Colonial India) because they rejected violence.

However, I do believe that they support sharia and dhimmitude, worldwide Ummah, and the like, like all other Muslims do. They just want THEIR conception of the Ummah rather than the Sunni or Shia one.

Chanad, can you confirm or deny?

Posted by: Suzan at August 1, 2004 10:48 AM

This webpage is about persecution of Ahmadis:

http://www.thepersecution.org/

It is taken from the list Internet Toolbox for Islam-critics:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=661

Posted by: Ali Dashti at August 1, 2004 11:24 AM

Chanad:
You have your hands full. Readers at this and other related sites are only too aware of the role of taqiyya and kitman in the Islamists drive for a world caliphate. And even if the Ahmadis represent a truly "peaceful" and "tolerant" sect of Islam and can manage to convince a majority of the Muslims to accept their more peaceful approach, there remains those pesky violent portions of the Qur'an and the extremist portions of Sharia law. As long as the Qur'an is held to be the only and last word regarding Allah's law, there will ALWAYS be fundamentalist purists among the Muslims who feel it is there sacred duty not only to impose their ways upon all infidels but also to purge Islam of all moderate, or what they would deem, apostate elements, such as the Ahmadis.

So how can it ever change?

Posted by: RJDJR at August 1, 2004 11:45 AM

The story of ahmaddiyas is a sad tale of
reforms in Islam in the Indian subcontinent.
British sympathy and liberal outlook for reforms in Indian society allowed the evolution of extremely successful Hindu reformers like Dayanand Saraswati, Vivekananda, Ram Mohan Roy etc. (Despite this, the British avarice driven colonization was still criminal and horrible for the economy, trade, and literacy rates.)
This put pressure on Islam to produce reforms or be left behind. Thus came Ghulam Ahmed, the reformer. He rejected violent jihad and said the muslims will henceforth not pick up the sword.
He also rejected the miracles of Jesus.
He was challenged by Deobandis (who follow Koran word to word just like Wahabis), another growing
movement in the subcontinent. Koran was the word of God. It could not altered, it could not be reinterpreted. Then came Ghulam's most serious mistake. He said half jokingly that he too was a prophet and commanded the muslims to take up their cause using non violent means. Then began the systematic denigration of ahmaddiyas by the deobandis. There could not have been a fifth prophet in Islam. Ask any mullah in Pakistan and verily he will tell you, " Ahmediyas are not muslims. Innocents should be careful of Ahmediyas. And Allah (swt) knows best".

Ahmediyas are not considered muslims in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Deobandis won. Aurangzeb always wins over Dara Shikoh in Islam. Koran and Hadith cannot be reinterpreted. So even today, muslims can practise polygamy, sharia, and violent jihad in the subcontinent. Thus failed a genuine attempt to reform Islam.

Ofcourse an exception can be made if you are nuke scientist selling secrets to other Islamic republics. Remember the Pakistani national icon - Abdul Qadeer Khan - the nuke scientist who did a technology transfer to Libya, Iran and North Korea. He is an Ahmaddiya !
Still, he won praise and pardon from the Deobandi General Musharraf. Yes, the only time muslims will consider an Ahmaddiya as muslim is when he smuggles nukes.

Posted by: Naresh C. at August 1, 2004 12:29 PM

Ahmadis who speak out will be the first to be sacrificed like sheep. Do you really think you are part of their ummah?

Posted by: Degenerate Artist at August 1, 2004 1:46 PM

By the way in the above post, when I meant Ghulam Ahmed rejected miracles of Jesus, I meant the 'muslim' Jesus
rather than the 'Christian' or even 'Jewish' Jesus. He was impressed by Christian teachings and he tried to imbibe Christian teachings too.
He started of as a genuine rationalist but ended more like a cultist when he realized intellectual debate was not possible within subcontinent's Islam. He jokingly claimed to be the last avatar of Vishnu too to foster hindu-muslim unity in the subcontinent. That was the final heresy for deobandi muslims. More virulent strains of Islam won over this cult like attempt at reforming Islam. Today, they cannot even vote in Pakistan or visit a mosque
(yes, even under the so called 'enlightened moderation' of hypocitical Musharraf.)

Posted by: Naresh C. at August 1, 2004 2:03 PM

Chanad - The above posters have asked the pertinent questions. We are awaiting your answers".Posted by: epg at August 1, 2004 10:42 AM

Well, Chanad "where" is your responce.

Right, thats what I thought.

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 3:18 PM

uh can i have this is in arabic?

"... I defend the right for Israel to exist..."

chanad

Posted by: forrestshalom at August 1, 2004 4:50 PM

Chanad, I would hate to do an injustice to anyone who genuinely wants to solve the problem of Islam vs. the rest of the world, and who wants to live in peace, but I'll believe it when I see it. It's the "deceit" factor--I'm sure you understand.

First, I confess I know nothing of your sect. If your version of the Koran etc. expunges all references to killing infidels etc., and if you and like-minded folk stand with the rest of the civilized world to actively oppose the violence, and if you actively and openly support all efforts to support those who are threatened by the current version of Islam, then maybe we can talk.

If you are genuine, then I wish you well.

If you are practicing deceit, I don't wish you well.

P.S.

Where do you stand on Israel (there is only one Israel, by the way)?

Where do you stand on sharia?

Where do you stand on the status of women?

Where do you stand on change, innovation, and knowledge?

Where do you stand on human rights? Can you define a "right"?

Where do you stand on the issue of belief?

Chanad, a lot has happened in the world since Al-Ghazali. You guys should have listened to Ibn Rushd.

Oh, well. We'll see.

Posted by: cubed at August 1, 2004 5:11 PM

Don't expect to hear back from Chan'ad anytime soon.

Evidently he is a "phony".

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 1, 2004 5:30 PM

Have gone to Article -thanks to Ali Dashti

Quote
'In Rangpur[Bangladesh] they captured and tortured
15 Ahmediyyas, forcing them to do Tawba and renounce Ahmadiya Islam. Did the Prophet Mohammed
teach us to torture in the name of Islam?'

ANSWER TO THIS IS: unfortunately 'YES'

Posted by: Morgane at August 1, 2004 6:06 PM

Beware! Ahmadis are not Muslims.

Allahu akbar

Posted by: Reza at August 1, 2004 6:34 PM

Wow what a response! I don't know if I have time to respond to all of the questions, but let me take a shot. Also, let me just make it clear that I do NOT belong to the Ahmadi sect as some people have assumed.

Suzan said:

I know that Ahmadis reject violent jihad, but do they also reject the sharia and humiliating treatment (dhimmitude) for non-Muslims?

I don't know the details of their religion but I'm quite sure that they don't follow the traditional Sunni sharia. I've never heard of any Ahmadis demanding capital punishment for anyone. I have also never heard of any Ahmadis wanting treat non-Muslims in a humiliating manner.

CGW said:

And do they support the establishment of a worldwide islamic caliphate?

I'm quite sure they don't want to impose a caliphate on non-Muslims. They have their own internal system of a caliphate I believe, which is the equivalent of the Catholic's papacy. But I'm quite sure they don't aim to impose this on the rest of the non-Ahmadi world.

RJDJR said:

As long as the Qur'an is held to be the only and last word regarding Allah's law, there will ALWAYS be fundamentalist purists among the Muslims

Yeah, I understand your concerns... the Qur'an and hadith say alot of things which I just don't agree with. And this is exactly what we are trying to chance. In my opinion, Muslims must learn to move away from a literalist interpretation to Islam. By this I mean we must give up the idea that the Quran is Truth. For the Truth can't lie in a bunch of words written on parchment 1400 years ago. As the Zen Buddhists say, "a finger that points at the moon is not the moon itself". In that way, words are not the Truth,... they only point towards the Truth, which all human beings know deep down inside. There are alot of absolutely beautiful things in the Qur'an which I know is right,... but there are also many questionable statements. Rabia Basri, the famous 8th century female Sufi saint, is known to have crossed out verses in her copy of the Qur'an because she was convinced that her God could not say such things. It is this critical approach that I believe Muslims must begin to adopt. Yes, I agree with you that it will be very difficult to bring about this paradigm shift among Muslims, but it must be done, and I am beginning to see the first signs of change. We must give up this fast-food approach to Islam. I know, it would require a much longer post to fully explain what I mean, but I don't have the time right now. Will hopefully have a post about this on my blog in a few weeks time.

And now the questions posed by cubed:

Where do you stand on Israel (there is only one Israel, by the way)?

As I said in a previous comment, I certainly defend Israel's right to exist and its right to defend itself. But I don't agree with all of Israel's actions. However, the problems I have with Israel are essentially political in nature, and not religious. If you're wondering what I think of jews, I think they're great, Woody Allen being the greatest of them of course :) (Seriously, he is my hero). I share the views held by the Hug-a-Jew column, so have a read.

Where do you stand on sharia?

If the Sharia tells me to beat people, execute people, stone women, or treat non-Muslims in a humiliating matter, then I do NOT believe in following it.

Where do you stand on the status of women?

I believe they are equal human beings. To answer the questions that I know you're really wondering about: I don't think they should be beaten or stoned and I think they should have the right to freely choose for themselves how they would like to dress.

Where do you stand on change, innovation, and knowledge?

Woah! What a question. I would need a book to do justice to this question. But to answer what you're really wondering about: No, I don't think we should be clinging to tradition just for the sake of it. There are alot of good things about tradition, and along of bad things about it. Take the good and throw out the bad. The current Islamic paradigm could certainly do with some change. Please be more specific for a more specific answer.

Where do you stand on human rights? Can you define a "right"?

I believe ALL humans have certain inherent rights, which I don't have time to go into,... but try referring to UN charter of human rights, which I agree with more or less. I'm not entirely sure what you a mean by the second part to your question. Maybe refer to Spinoza... I agree with much of what he said with regards to ethics.

Where do you stand on the issue of belief?

!!! Another question that requires a thesis to answer. But again, in short, everyone is essentially free to choose what they believe in so long as their actions do not impose on others (i.e. believing that raping babies will make God happy). It is wrong to, and impossible to, impose belief on someone else. Okay, that's insufficient. Try being more specific in your question.

Chanad, a lot has happened in the world since Al-Ghazali. You guys should have listened to Ibn Rushd.

I agree on that one friend. A lot has happened, so it is imperative to bring about change.

Just want to let you know that I will be away from my computer for the next two to three weeks so I won't be able to respond until then. Maybe drop me an e-mail if you have a specific question, or leave a comment on my blog.

Posted by: Chan'ad at August 1, 2004 6:40 PM

Here's the drill. Bears, Gorillas, Lions, Tigers, Gators, Sharks......All superior in strength, size, and speed to humans. By rights, they should be able to rule the world. One problem, they are all intellectually inferior to man, and thus, lower on the food chain.

Islam will never rule the world, for they simply do not, and will not ever be in the intellectual position to do so. Though slightly higher in intelligence than your average gorilla, Muslims lack the patience and negotiating ability.

When a bear, or a rhino, etc charge us and we're armed, charging us is their final act, as we blow their brains out. This is not an attempt at humor. This is factual. We are better educated, and far more sophisticated. They only way we can lose this war, is to believe for one second that there is such a thing as "peaceful jihad". Read Robert Spencer's and Daniel Pipes' books to fully understand this. They are far more experienced with the Middle East that I will ever be.

With regard to Raisin's post stating that Ahmadis are not Muslims, my short reply is: Good for them..

Posted by: DCWatson at August 1, 2004 7:23 PM

Chanad

Many people see the WTC atrocity as the product of an intensley evil mind, and this one act has driven a wedge between Islam and the Western world; people who never really thought of Islam as anything other than a peaceful religion started to see things differently upon examination of its apologists.

The worst evil a man can inflict on himself is to make his family and his neighbours fear him; for it is true that no-one will allow themselves to present him with adverse news lest he unleashes his blind but fearsome rage on them, it is in this manner that he has isolated himself from his family and neighbours

This is the situation islam is in!

How can Islam get out of this situation?

Posted by: breadwinner at August 1, 2004 7:32 PM

Good for Chan'ad that he comes to this site to have an open and honest discussion with people; he does so at some peril to himself, because unlike most of us, he does not live in an open and free society. He is the real deal, and I believe there are plenty of muslims like him.

In fact, I believe it is the Chan'ads of the world that will eventually make the difference in the ME and the war with Islamist by causing reforms within their government to move them along towards freedom. Please take time to read his blog and go back through posts; I doubt there is much there to disagree with.

There is no doubt we are at war with a segment of Islam that wishes to change our way of life. We need to know who the real enemy is and it's not all muslims. They are in the same boat as us and we all need to be rowing together against the enemy.
This post by Mahmood of Mahmood's Den explains alot about Islam and the ME.
Re(2): Our Democracy, Our Way.
Posted by: Mahmood Al-Yousif on June 09, 2004 06:02 PM
Steve believe me when I say that the situation in the Third World in general and the Arab world in particular is much more complex than that.

But we (the ordinary people) have common concerns:

1. we don't want to die
2. we don't want to be tortured
3. we don't want our families and friends to die because of our actions
4. we don't want our families and friends to be tortured because of our actions

do you know how scary it is to live in this kind of situation? you probably don't, so let me tell you a little bit of how I feel, and if one of my compatriot Arabs disagrees with my assessment then I am all ears.

Arabs do not differ at all in their physique or psyche (essentially) from you. Where we differ is that we continuously live in abject fear of the rulers and their instruments. These instruments range from rebuke to murder for you and your family. If you dissent – and there are many who do – then the wrath of terror is visited upon you and your family. That means no income, no business, no education, no job, and no life. It is a very brave man or woman indeed who bucks the trend.

Would you honestly dissent in these situations? It's easy for you to point fingers and accuse us all of cowardice, it is difficult for you to really know our culture because you judge us by your own. Your forefathers have fought tooth and nail 300 years ago for liberation. At that time you didn't have to contend with "big brother" standing next to your oppressor, and communication was much simpler, so re-enforcement to the armies took months if not years for it to arrive at a battle scene, and when they do finally arrive the situation has completely changed, and a winner declared.

Now people rise against their oppressor and what happens? Within hours the tools that prep the regimes are there jumping on your head and re-establish the "status quo" to their benefit. Easier that way isn't it? Better the devil you know than the one you don't? And the oil/natural supply chain is unaffected, so your people can carry on with their picnics. What happens to the people who have risen? 6 feet under with their entire families.

Do you have any idea how many attempts people made to topple a morally-bankrupt government in the Middle East? Did any succeed? No, but if you look in the Empty Quarter, or any other uninhabited and remote location in the Middle East I guarantee you will find bodies so smashed that they could only have been dropped from high altitudes, maybe right next to mass graves.

Some people just could not handle this kind of pressure and choose to get out, emigrate to climes more to their liking. Most couldn't have that luxury so they stay and toe the line.

What I'm saying really is that in this day and age it is virtually impossible to topple any government by force (at least in the Middle East) and the only way to have your say and change things for the better is education and slow and painful reform.
This reform is happening now not because our rulers feel the need to "involve" their populace, but rather they have been told to do so, even marginally to show that "they care", but real things carry on as usual.

So be patient. Things will change now and Bahrain is demonstrating one way of doing so. It would not have happened here but for the struggle the people of Bahrain have carried on since the 50s and before. We're just starting, at least this time I believe there is no turning back.

Saudi is different for sure. But changes are happening there too, the first of which is the ugly and contested divorce we are witnessing now between the House of Saud and the Wahabis.

If the world thinks that the people of Saudis are exclusively Wahabis they are sorely mistaken. They are detested by the lay Saudi. I suspect that there numbers do not exceed 20% and that is probably generous. But the old adage holds very true in this situation: "the empty jar makes the loudest noise." Unfortunately the remaining 80% are afraid for their very lives and livelihood. They are opposing these empty jars, but in their own ways which are not always opaque enough for you to see.

Finally they didn't touch or try to help Frank Gardener most probably because the police will accuse people trying to rescue him as the "real" killers! If he dies in their hands they WILL be held responsible! This is how the Saudi machine works. But the majority Saudi people are decent human beings. You can take that to the bank.

Posted by: M at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM

Cha'nad, where do you stand on the right of muslims who wish to apostate from their religion?

Posted by: Voltaire at August 2, 2004 6:45 AM

Chan'ad
Why don't you just create your own Koran. Throw out the stuff that you don't like, and keep the stuff that you do like.

Posted by: Voltaire at August 2, 2004 7:08 AM

"The the majority Saudi people are decent human beings. You can take that to the bank".

"If the world thinks that the people of Saudis are exclusively Wahabis they are sorely mistaken. They are detested by the lay Saudi. I suspect that there numbers do not exceed 20% and that is probably generous".

Posted by: M at August 1, 2004 10:41 PM

I am in the process of researching the above claims by M. If there is anyone with accurate information to the contray please respond accordingly.

Thanks,

Son of Infidel

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 7:23 AM

Voltarie,

Nice try, but Islam has not reformed itself in 14 centuries and it certianly is not going to now.

IF any thing Islam, the sunni sect that is, has become more radical with the spread of Wahabbism.

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 2, 2004 7:32 AM