Goodnes, you wonder how many times some one has to be slapped in the face to finaly admit that they are being slapped?

This cult and its followers cannot be trusted, no, they cannot even be given the benefit of the doubt ANYMORE...they ALL have ONE ultimate goal....they are like ants in an ants nest.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 10, 2004 6:44 PM

My step-sister's daughter has been introduced to Islam through a summer-time work colleague. I am ringing the alarm bells, and they think I've gone over the edge. Isn't this "dawah"? What next, all in family convert, or "off with their heads"?

This is rural Pennsylvania, Amish country, unfortunately my family is Biblically illiterate (I am a late bloomer to Christianity), and they have no sense of authentic & true, vs. false & of "the dark side". As a matter of fact, I'd venture to guess they are of the apologist, "poor mistreated Muslims" stance, & probably agree with Kristof's assessment that believing Christians are as deadly as Jihadists.

Any advice?

Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 10, 2004 7:02 PM

Daughter of Patriots:

First of all, please let her read my piece, "What is the Shariah?". It provides full excerpts of Shariah legal clauses together with references as to the validity of the information. Here are some examples of Shariah law and a link to my piece follows:

1. Offensive, military jihad against non-Muslims is a communal, religious obligation;
2. A person who is ignorant about Islamic legal opinion must follow the legal opinion of a scholar;
3. The penalty for a Muslim apostate (someone who no longer believes in or no longer follows the tenets of Islam) is death;
4. When slaughtering animals for food, a knife must be used to cut the windpipe and gullet;
5. A woman is only eligible to receive half the inheritance of a man;
6. Marriage may be forced on virgins by their father or father’s father;
7. A non-Arab man may not marry an Arab woman;
8. A woman must seek permission from her husband to leave the house;
9. A Muslim man cannot marry a woman who is a Zoroastrian, an idol worshipper, an apostate from Islam or a woman with one parent who is Jewish or Christian, with the other being Zoroastrian; a Muslim woman cannot marry anyone but a Muslim;
10. A free Muslim man may marry up to four women;
11. Retaliation is obligatory in most cases when someone is deliberately murdered except when a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, a Jew or a Christian kills a Muslim apostate or a father or mother kill their offspring;
12. Non-Muslim subjects (Ahl al-Dhimma) of a Muslim state are subject to a series of discriminatory laws – “dhimmitude”;
13. The penalty for fornication or sodomy is being stoned to death;
14. The penalty for an initial theft is amputation of the right hand. Subsequent thefts are penalized by further amputations of feet and hand;
15. A non-Muslim cannot testify against a Muslim in court; a person who is “without respectability” cannot give legal testimony; a woman’s legal testimony is only given half the legal weight of a man’s (and is only acceptable in cases involving property); to legally prove fornication or sodomy requires 4 male witnesses who actually saw the act;
16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation;
17. Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
18. Laughing too much is forbidden;
19. Musical instruments are unlawful;
20. Creating pictures of animate life is forbidden;
21. Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;
22. Slavery is permitted;
23. People may be bribed to convert to Islam;
24. Beating a rebellious wife is permissible; and,
25. Lying is permissible in a time of war (or jihad).

http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/21475

Posted by: Mentat at August 10, 2004 7:30 PM

Daughter of Patriots:

Then, she could either read Ibn Warraq's Why I am not a Muslim or Robert Spencer's Islam Unveiled. Or, she could read Hugh Fitzgerald's Islam for the Perplexed here:

http://nojihad.com/contributors/hugh/onislam.htm

Or she could go to Answering-Islam which answers pretty well every question that you could ever have about Islam from a Christian perspective and provides a wealth of information.

http://answering-islam.org/

Obviously, she should read the Qu'ran herself, but you have to be careful about the edition you get because some are deliberately mis-translated to deceive Western readers. Here is a good translation, in my opinion.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140445587/qid=1092181023/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0802575-2480027?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Then you have to be aware that a large part of Muslim belief is based on the ahadith (remembrances of what Muhammad said and did recorded by his followers) and Muhammad's example as recorded in the ahadith.

Answering-Islam has links to collections of the Ahadith (plural) (singular hadith).

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/index.html

Also, you need to know some basic history about Islam. Just pick up the Encyclopedia Brittannica and read about how Islam spread. That is damning enough. Before there was Western Imperialism and colonialism, there was Islamic Imperialism and colonialism.

http://www.eb.com/

Finally, you must be aware that Muslims are religiously obligated to lie or, more charitably, misrepresent it or not tell you about certain aspects of their faith in order to put it in a good light. This is called taqiyyah or kitman.

http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp

Here's an excerpt from Imam Yaha Hendrick on how to do Da'wah (proselytize)as an example of how they will approach you:

Second, the only topics that will be allowed in any gathering where non-Muslims are addressed will be limited to subjects about life, our purpose, Allah' guidance/forgiveness, the Qur'an and its role in life and the example of the Blessed Prophet. There will be no lectures on fiqh, politics, tassawuf, Unani healing or the psychothematic paradigms found in the writings of obscure Persian or Urdu poets. No exceptions no matter how "big" the money behind the event is.

http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/articles/article10.htm

And, finally, here is a Da'wah site so you can see the whole scoop on how they intend to take over the world. And I ain't kiddin - Muslims are religiously obligated to help convert the whole world to Islam or become part of the Islamic social order. Capiche?

http://www.dawanet.com/methods/default.asp

Posted by: Mentat at August 10, 2004 8:05 PM

Daughter of Patriots:

Sorry above should be Yahiya Emerick not Yaha Henderick (I don't have a perfect memory, sorry).

I can't wait for my direct mind/computer link! LOL.

Posted by: Mentat at August 10, 2004 8:17 PM

This is a serious problem; Islam stunts the mental growth. It separates those who accept it from their Infidel relatives (and it already sets out how you must deal with those relatives). If it akin to having a child being brainwashed into a cult -- no, not akin, precisely the same thing, except this cult has hundreds of millions of members, and so it seems, from the outside, to be a religion worthy of automatic respect.

Along with Ibn Warraq's Why I Am Not a Muslim," already recommended, I would suggest his book of testimonies by ex-Muslims, "Leaving Islam." Those, and many other examples that can be found at the websites of ex-Muslims, such as www.secularislam.org and www.faithfreedom.org, along with articles by Ibn Warraq himself, Ali Sina, Azam Kamguian (on the treatment of women in Islam -- this kind of thing may be particularly useful for girls who are being seduced into the belief-system -- they are unlikely to be as concerned with how hostility toward all Infidels is inculcated). And another essay, which can be found at www.secularislam.org and at www.nojihad.org, is Ibn Warraq's meticulous comparison of the defining features of fascism (as set out by the Italian writer Umberto Eco) with the main characteristics of Islam -- an almost perfect fit.

Try to keep any relative in danger of succumbing away for the da'wa pitch of a fellow employee, until you have mastered this material, and tried to suggest to this victim that she read precisely what you have read, and understood, and re-read. And ask her, again and again, if she understands that Islam has been a political failure (the only Muslim state, out of 57, that is vaguely democratic is Turkey, and that is because Kemal Ataturk constrained Islam), an economic failure (sitting on hundreds of millions of barrels of oil, and receiving money because of an accident of geology, though you did nothing to deserve that money -- and charging $40/barrel for oil that costs under a $1`per barrel to produce -- is hardly "economic success." Despite the largest transfer of wealth in human history, the Muslim oil states have failed utterly to create modern or even functioning economies; they are totally dependent on foreign workers, both the highly skilled and the unskilled. Islam is an intellectual failure; it forbids statuary and paintings of live beings (and would, if it could, destroy all of those existing, just as tens of thousands of Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, and Jewish places of worship, and artifcats, were destroyed over the centuries of Muslim conquest and Muslim rule). In the last thousand years, there is not a single intellectual achievement that can be ascribed to adherents of that belief-system (Abdus Salam, the one Nobel Prizewiner in Physics who is called a "Muslim" was, in reality, an Ahmadiyya, a sect deemed Infidel by other Beleivers); many of the previous achievements either involved simply transfering the achievements of non-Muslims -- the Chinese invention of paper, the Hindu invention of the zero and of what are wrongly called "Arabic numerals"; the translation of Greek texts, which took place largely in Muslim Spain and in Baghdad, was largely a matter of Christian and Jewish translators from Greek, into Syriac, thence into Arabic, later on more translations were also done directly from the Greek. The fact that Aristotle was translated, and thus "saved" for the West, is peculiar. What, save for some commentaries, did Muslim civilization do with Aristotle? The answer is -- almost nothing.

Again, this should be treated with a full-court press, by all relatives concerned. They should fully inform themselves about Islam. Let her try anything -- Zen Buddhism, Hari Krishna, crystal therapy, channeling, table-turning, any damn thing she wants -- but not a belief-system that will not only, as I wrote, stunt her mental growth, but may make her actively hostile, or passively hostile, to all her Infidel relatives, to her country, to the West. It is not a fate one would wish on anyone, whatever the putative "serenity" and "wholeness" and all that stuff that those peddling their Da'wa wares claim.

Posted by: Hugh at August 10, 2004 9:10 PM

Interesting that the State Department says that the bin Laden family distances itself from Osama.

The State Department is to Saudi Arabia, as the NAACP is to the Democratic Party...an apendenge.

To: daughter of patiot

I suggest that you contact a expert, don't just read a book. I suggest that you contact Dr. Craner, Professor of Theology at Liberty University, in Virginia. He was a muslim and became a Christian. He would be the expert to help you. You can contact him through the University. He speaks nationwide, and has had a open invitation to this specifically.

Prayers are with you.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at August 10, 2004 9:15 PM

Hugh:

Since no one else is likely to do so, I would just like to say thank you for taking the time to write the above piece. If we can just save one person from this terrible belief-system, we will have done something worthwhile with our lives.

Posted by: Mentat at August 10, 2004 9:34 PM

Bin Laden is a hero to most Muslims[I'm sure he thinks so too].This guy has had every advantage money can buy including wives and technology toys: latter probably rate more highly than former
as women are expendable, only good for breeding and serving their lords and masters. Psychologically believe that our Osama was resentful at only being one among Daddy's Kiddiwinks numbering at least 51-56 progeny by different wives/concubines. If Muslims were more sports minded [apart from going on Jihad] they would have appreciated making up soccer or baseball teams, no outsiders needed. So Osama grew up with a grudge, he wanted to be the best among his numerous siblings. In Islam he found what he needed, the coming of the [second] Mahdi,
where he can be hero worshiped forever more by 1.2
Billion Muslims. And YES, I do believe he thinks of himself as this lengendary figure which makes him all the more dangerous because in his super-ego,HE CAN DO ANYTHING IN THE NAME OF ALLAH. Forget bullshit of in the name of most merciful and compassionate etc.Should be interested to know what others think.

Posted by: Morgane at August 10, 2004 9:45 PM

As the Umdat al-salik states with regard to the re-establishment of the Caliphate:

16. The establishment and continuation of the Islamic Caliphate (by force, if necessary) is a communal obligation

pp. 638-639

THE OBLIGATORY CHARACTER OF THE CALIPHATE

o25.1 (Mawardi:) The reason the office of supreme leadership has been established in Sacred Law is to fulfill the caliphal successorship to prophethood in preserving the religion and managing this-worldly affairs. The investiture of someone from the Islamic Community (Umma) able to fulfill the duties of the caliphate is obligatory by scholarly consensus (def: b7), though scholars differ as to whether its obligatory character is established through reason or through Revealed Law.

pp. 642-644

THE THREE WAYS A CALIPH MAY BE INVESTED WITH OFFICE

o25.4 The caliphate may be legally effected … (1) by an oath of fealty … (2) … by the caliph appointing a successor … (3) through seizure of power by an individual possessing the qualifications of a caliph (H: meaning by force …) [letter writer’s emphasis]

All Osama has to do is claim that he has the qualifications to be the Caliph; then, he is off to the races.

Posted by: Mentat at August 10, 2004 10:07 PM

Daughter of patriots

Let her know that if she converts to Islam, she'll never be able to leave it. The penalty for apostacy is death. Tell her that if she joins, she'll never be able to change her mind about it later on.

Posted by: Voltaire at August 11, 2004 7:33 AM

Go for the source....expose this noxious pestilence for what it truly is....print all the info and GET THE QURAN and quote the references....and reference the hadiths, they are bone chilling frightening but are imperative in understanding Islam....this should be enough.......

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 11, 2004 7:49 AM

and....if that and all the other suggestions above wont work...then time will be her best friend.....not many stay in this religion when they finaly find out what it is really like

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 11, 2004 7:51 AM

Thanks to everyone for the comments -- very informative. I hear thru the family grapevine that the muslim colleague in question, is a "shy, young man who is very homesick", leaving to somewhere in South Pacific in October. The family member is off to another state for vacation, and I don't think she's been converted, but is going back to second year college in Sep., & I fear becoming indoctrinated with all sorts of leftist (anti-American) propaganda. That's another story.

Paranoia? Perhaps.

Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 11, 2004 8:12 AM

Need to be on guard against this shy young man ,
There are rich Imans & Mullahs who wouldnt flinch at sending $10,000 to this "Shy" young man to secure a fresh young toy/slave,..
Dont mean to scare you but a private detective may be in order to prevent her from going off to "Visit" with this "seemingly" shy youing man In any forigen country,
Does she have a visa? ,If she suddenly applies for a visa, she needs to be watched closely.
Sounds like a horror novel, but it DOES happen

Posted by: AvrageJoe at August 11, 2004 11:01 AM

daughter of patriots - years ago I was told by a friend, "Whatever you do, don't get involved with Muslim men." She said this because she had seen first hand what happens when Western women marry Muslims and wake up to find one day they are wife #1 and that their husband has plans for three more wives.

Not only that, she told me of a friend of hers who met a modern Arab man in Lebanon who was a highly educated professor, originally from Aman. This woman eventually married him and a year or so later pressed her to return to Jordan with him. Despite reservations, she agreed to return with him for a small vacation, however, once in Jordan they never left. Within no time at all, he married two more women and when she tried to disuade him, the beatings began. She could not believe this modern, educated man could have turned into this backward misogynistic monster. In the end, she had two children from him. He used the children to keep her close to home. She could never leave the house without one of the children staying behind. After the birth of her second child, she attempted to flee the country. She managed to get to the airport and almost made it on the plane with their older son when he called the airport and airport security hunted her down. When they returned her to the house, she was beaten very badly.

Eventually, she managed to escape, but had to leave her older son behind - taking their daughter with her. When she arrived in the States, she contacted my friend and through her help, she disappeared. She told my friend that if he ever finds her, "He will kill me and take our daughter back to Jordan." (And all of this from an educated moderate Arab man.)

Having seen the movie, "Not Without My Daughter," regarding a similar experience with Betty Mahmoody. I have to believe these stories are pretty commonplace events. Your step-sister's daughter will be playing with fire if she chooses to become involved with this "shy, young man who is very homesick." Just because he is that way now, when trying to interest her in Islam, does not mean that will be how he is once she is ensnared. I mean, who would think that an educated, enlightened moderate Arab professor would turn into such a monstrous control freak?

Posted by: paula at August 12, 2004 5:38 AM

Daughter of Patriots,
I would argue that it is not enough merely to be warned against the dangers of Islam. In Matthew 12 Jesus says:

43“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”

So long as the "house" is empty, i.e., a person does not have a belief in Christ, they are vulnerable to evil beliefs. I would argue that the answer to your step-sister's daughter problem is not so much to dissuade her from a belief in Islam, but to persuade her to believe in Christ. Do you happen to know what her relationship is with Jesus?
Regards,
Steven Lohr

Posted by: Steven Lohr at August 12, 2004 9:18 PM