LOL...a little Jewish boy put a spell on mohammad...that is hilarious. Way back in college I dated an Israeli and his grandmother would do an evil eye type of thing (at this point I wanst so sure she had all her faculties) but we never paid much attention to that, mohammad is an even bigger idiot than I give him credit for.

Perhaps the reason muslims seem to favor Kerry is because he is similar to their prophet...talking about things he knows nothing about (eg deer hunting) and instead of making their own living..marrying a rich widow.

At least someone is finally telling the truth, of course muslims will say that this particular group of muslims are cracked and dont know what they are talking about..and the PC fools will eat that up.

"and lo!".. who the hell talks like that in this day and age...

Posted by: USAgirl at August 23, 2004 8:27 PM

Classic case of perpetrators [Muslims] blaming their victims [Jews] as it was Muderous Mo and Jihadists who drove out peaceful Jews from Medina.
This time Israel remains threatened but unbowed and will crush Jihadists. The more this fanatical scum are despatched to Allah the better.
Show no mercy for we shall be shown NONE!

Posted by: Morgane at August 23, 2004 8:45 PM

Yes that "prophet" creature really hated Jews, from day one. They were happy in their own religion but he wouldn't allow that. He wanted everyone to fall at his feet and follow him. Or else. They laughed at him. As you would, if some dickhead came along and started spouting about some new religion where he was the Big Cheese and you had to mindlessly follow along. That must have really pissed him off. So he started slaughtering, to get back at them, and to get his point across more forcefully. Once he had enough cohorts, you didn't have much choice, did you? Follow this deluded psychopath or be murdered.

This enmity continues today. Hate the Jews because the "prophet" hated the Jews. No other reason. Just hate them because he said so. Islam's not noted for being full of free-thinkers, who say 'that was then, times are different'. No, they just mindlessly follow hateful edicts written 1400 years ago. What this "prophet" creature decreed back then apparently applies today, forever. Apparently he was the final, the perfect, the wonderful, the merciful. Because he said so. Don't question that, just brainlessly follow, brainlessly hate, brainlessly kill. How sick.

Loads of lovely references in their war manual about what to think of Jews, those nasty free thinking people who had the audacity to choose who they wanted to worship. How dare they?! Kill them! And lefties stupidly think this is all about Israel, and if only the Jews were nicer to Palestinians, Muslims would all give everybody a great big group hug and we'd all live happily together, respecting each other, allowing everyone to do their own thing. Tra la la la la!

Posted by: feralee at August 23, 2004 9:21 PM

I have engaged in many arguments with erudite scholars who emphatically declared that religion is not an issue in this conflict. Religion is the crux, the very essence of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and always has been. Not because the Jews can't get along with the muslims, but because muslims consider all of Palestine to be "Islamic" territory.
This frank, albeit it arrogant, admission will be disavowed by the liberals and other muslims, and the charade will continue.
Islam is such an obvious sham, a pseudo religion concocted by a barbaric Arab warlord to attain wealth and glory. The very notion that God would replace the Bible with the Quran is absolutely ludicrous.

Posted by: Susanp at August 23, 2004 9:29 PM

If only they'd had chlorapromazine in the 7th century, none of this would have happened.

Posted by: Doctor Phibes at August 23, 2004 9:32 PM

"And ever since the first hour in which the Muslims let the beautiful fragrance of Islaam flow through it (Madeenah), ...".

And it is evidently still flowing through Jeddah, where they are 5 to 10 years away from drowning in their own sh-, er, sewage.

jay

Posted by: jay at August 23, 2004 9:43 PM

Muslims hate Jews for many reasons:

1. Mohammed stole many of his ideas for his koran out of the Jewish Torah. If they can destroy Jews and the Torah, they can claim it was all mohammed's "divine" inspiration and not just a cheap imitation.

2. Jews are hardworking and industrious. They transformed that shithole of a desert into productive land. If you have ever been to Israel you can see the stark difference between Israel and the Palestinian land, its like going from the US into Mexico. From clean and orderly, to dirty and disorderly. This is an embarrasment to muslims everywhere.

3. If they can destroy the Jews, they can steal the rest of the Jewish icons like they have attempted to make Moses into a muslim and well as Christ.

Lie, steal, destroy, coerce and kill were the hallmarks of mohammed, and they are the hallmarks of muslims today.

Nothing has changed....

Posted by: SonofMoses at August 23, 2004 9:45 PM

ISRAEL: we are with you!

and most importantly so is Yeshua Ha'Mashiach, your king.

pity the poor moslems who dare fight against the Holy One of Israel and his people..

Posted by: forrestshalom at August 23, 2004 10:05 PM

No coexistence is possible as they will continue in their delusion to wage a predatory war of aggression and we will continue to resist.

Posted by: epg at August 23, 2004 10:07 PM

Lie, steal, destroy, coerce and kill were the hallmarks of mohammed, and they are the hallmarks of muslims today.

Thats why I personaly am confident that Natural and Divine justice will occur with this malignant religion......because it is chaotic to the natural laws of lifes principles.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 23, 2004 10:24 PM

The main point here is of course correct. The Arab opposition to Israel always emerged from the general Muslim opposition to any sovereign Infidel state within the dar al-Islam. In 1920 the Arab notables of what became Mandatory Palestine (the "Palestinian people" were invented only after the Six-Day War, as an afternoon's research in the relevant archives would reveal -- perhaps the quickest source to check are the records of the U.N. General Assembly and Security Council, especially in 1947, 1948, and 1949. Not one word, not one syllable, indicating the existence of a "Palestinian people." Nor in 1956. Nor in 1963. It was only after the war that Israel won, and Arafat's predecessor as main spokesman for the local Arabs, Ahmed Shukairy, was shunted aside, and a bit of thought went into how to get the world to accept a more palatable formulaton of "we shall drive the Jews into the sea" that the relentless Jihad against Israel was redefined. First, the "Palestinian people" were invented. And as few people seemed to realize that the toponym "Palestine" was not in use in the Muslim world, that there had been no such place under the 500 years of Ottoman rule, nor under the Arab rule, nor that of the Byzantines -- not as a separate unit; and fewer still seemed to realize that the word "Palestine" which became known in Western Christendom, merely reflected the attempts of the Romans to efface the Jewish connection to the land by replacing the word "Judea" with the word "Palestine" (an adjectival form from Syria palaestinorum, Syria of the Philistines, after a tribe that inhabited five coastal cities in southwestern Israel and disappeared several thousand years ago. But so many people are so ignorant, that all one has to do is talk about the "Palestinians" and "Palestine" and they nod their empty heads, and think -- yup, it must belong to them alright. Otherwise, why would they be called "Palestinians" and why was that called "Palestine"? This level of idiocy, believe it or not, is also what goes on in the world's press (there used to be some standards, some minimal knowledge of history required) and in the diplomatic corps.

Now if the Jihad against Israel is essentially without end as long as the ideology of Islam remains what it is, there is no point in all this blather about "negotiations" and treaties. DOn't tell that, of course, to those people, such as Martin Indyk and Richard Hass and the egregious Dennis Ross, who haven't a clue either as to the centrality of Islam, and the real naturee of the conflcit, nor of the tenets or history of Islam. For all I know they read Esposito, or at best Lewis (a great supporter, now much chagrined, of the Oslo Accords -- as he has been of the "Light-Unto-the-Muslim Nations" project in Iraq, which misses the point entirely of what the Infidel world needs to do, which is -- not to bring "democracy" but to act in a way that will constrain Islam, in the first place by doing whatever is necessary to show to the world, of Infidels and Muslims alike, that Islam has been a complete failure, politically, economically (sitting on top of oil does not make a country an economic success -- what is remarkable is despite the trillions of dollars, what miserable failures the OPEC oil countries have been in their attempts to have real economies), intellectual (what achievements in the last thousand years can be ascribed to Islam -- and what are the great limits on human creativity that this belief-system that discourages free and skeptical inquiry, that provides a complete Guide to the Universe that prevents thought, that forbids statuary, most painting, most music, and of course most real literature as all other cultures understand that word-- what are those achievements, exactly?), and moral (for a system that is based on the conquest of the world, even if it is not achieved or not acted on every minute of every day), and that actively seeks to subjugate all non-Muslims, against whom hostility is inculcated from the Muslim cradle to the Muslim grave) -- well, all of this is far beyond the Rosses and Indyks of this world.

And of course that is all they know. They do not know about Islam. They have spent years, decades, on "negotiations." That is what their careers are made of -- that and managing to convince some rich people who think they are helping Israel (Haim Saban, the Weinbergs, all those others who bankroll the likes of Indyk and Ross). If the war against Israel is a Jihad (and of course there are a few islamochristians such as Hanan Ashrawi who come in handy in helping to disguise the Jihad, the Islamic impulse behind everything -- and it also helps to simply ignore, without comment, the repeated invocation by Arafat of the Treeaty of al-Hudabiyya, the main documents of Hamas, the PLO, and all the other groups, which are completely soaked in Islamic doctrine.

There is no solution, and negotiations are silly. The only solution is that of darura -- necessity. If Israel abandons its idiotic belief that further concessions and further retreats will make peace more likely, when it will without question make war more likely, it has a chance to survive. And if Israel's leaders do not understand this, it is up to those outside, who see more clearly, and who understand the significance of Israel and the Land of Israel or the Holy Land (take your pick) remaining out of Muslim control -- for that control would have devastating consequences for the morale of Christians and Jews, and indeed of agnostics and atheists who have emerged in Western Christendom, and cannot be allowed to happen. If that means "saving Israel in spite of itself" by working against its suicidal impulses to surrender and to be blinded by its left, so be it. The history of Israeli diplomacy, after all, is a history of blunder and failure.

It is not surprising. The ruling establishment in Israel consisted not of Mizrahi Jews, who knew something about dhimmitude, but of people from Europe, who knew nothing, and learned little, about Islam. Jabotinsky himself talked about the need for an "Iron Wall" and he realized that the Arabs would never accept Israel otherwise -- but even he did not understand that Arab opposition (despite a facade of "nationalism" and the useful local Christian Arabs who had internalized Muslim attitudes just the way Michel Aflaq, the Christian Arab who founded Ba'athism, did) was based on Islam. Many Israelis realize this -- Moshe Sharon, Raphael Israeli come to mind among the scholars of Islam. But most do not because the realization that there is no solution, that there is only the hope of an endless standoff, is just too painful to contemplate. Denial of reality can be very strong. It was strong in the 1930s with the Nazis. It was strong , in the refusal of many in the democracies to understand either the nature of Bolshevism (it should have been clear by 1919, when Mark Aldanov wrote "Lenine" or after the Kronstadt mutiny, or after the terror unleashed following Fanny Kaplan's attempt on Lenin's life) or of its still more hideous avatar, Communism.

The fact that for centuries Muslim peasants tilled the soil, and were illiterate, and hardly knew the Qur'an and the hadith, meant that they were not a threat. But with Saudi and other Arab states getting rich, they could pay for mosques, they could pay for madrasas, they could have a full panoply of audiocassettes, videocassettes, and now satellite channels. It is harder and harder to find those quiet, simple folk who may call themselves "MUslim" but were once scarcely the threat. The doctrines did not change. They were always there. There were dozens of Jihads thorughout the 19th and 20th centuries -- beginning with that in 1804 in West Africa, continuing in North Africa with Abdel Kader, and in the Sudan with the Mad Mahdi, and in India, and of course the Jihad against the Armenians, and the 1915 world-wide Jihad that was declared (and records of it were declassified by the State Department only in recent decades -- why that declaration of Jihad was hidden from public knowledge is a fascinating question). What changed is that the Arabs (who essentially are the moving force in Islam, and despite the universalit claims, Islam is a vehicle for Arab linguistic, cultural, and even political imperialism -- the most successful imperialism in world history, one hardly recognized, much less resented, by most of its victims).

Yes, of course, the Jihad against Israel is merely the most publicized of the JIhads -- though until now the Arabs have worked mightily to depict it not as a JIhad (they needed and worked assiduously for Western support, and they have been quite successful too ever since they promoted that "Palestinian people" idea virtually unopposed by the helpless, confused, inarticulate Israeli governments, good at waging war, terrible at presenting their own case or even in understanding the most elementary things about their own case). In failing to see things clearly, successive Israeli governments have failed their own people. And what is more, they have failed the West by not helping the West to understand the larger question of JIhad. ONe cannot blame them; they have been under terrific pressure; they lurch from one crisis to the next; they are pushed around even by their closest ally, the United States. Still, if the war against Israel had been understood as rooted in Islamic tenets, if those tenets had been publicized, comprehended, and taken into account, would the countries of Western Europe, or their elites, really have allowed in, with such negligence and nonchalance, millions of Muslims into their very midst, which has already created, for the indigenous Infidels, a situation far more unpleasant, expensive, and dangerous than it would otherwise be.

True, Israel owed the rest of the world exactly nothing. But had it analyzed its own problem correctly, Europe would not now be in danger of transmogrifying into Eurabia, and be busy rewriting its own history to accomodate absurd Muslim demands, and reshaping its own collective understanding of its own past to make its present appeasements more palatable. Madness, all way round.

Posted by: Hugh at August 24, 2004 12:02 AM

“The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews “
by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi.

Yet I don’t see any evidence of this being true by the way the arab world acts towards jew’s and the west. Our rules of engagement with Muslims should be, shoot first, don’t hear crap later. And thank you Pres Bill Clinton for not doing what should have been done in 1996. I knew you where not a good leader, a good leader makes the hard choices that are not popular but they are the right choices. We must kill Islam not just USAMA BIN LADEN. Our fight is with Islam.

Posted by: Bar at August 24, 2004 3:15 AM

There is no solution, and negotiations are silly. The only solution is that of darura -- necessity.

The negotiations are the perfect ploy for "palestinians". It affords them the legitimacy they desire. They make unreasonable demands of the Israelis knowing full well they will never agree. This enables them to keep getting money from their supporters.

Imagine if you were Arafat getting millions for your "struggle". Would you agree to a settlement knowing that the money would stop flowing and you would be held accountable in a time of peace for all the money you skimmed off the top? Of course not. If Arafat can keep the intifadah alive he can keep collecting the cash, not answering to anyone for how he spends it, and not have to worry about a democratic government being elected of which he may have no part and probably will get into trouble for skimming off from the money they have been sent.

Peace is bad business for them. Also the more the Palestinians can be made to look like victims, and the Israelis made to look like aggressors, the anti-semites of the world will have ample fodder to fuel their hatred of the Jews and to justify their acts of aggression. Thats why I hate Sharon, he just played right into their trap.

Peace for palestinians is bad for muslims everywhere and it will never happen, they will keep making ridiculous demands to keep the illusion alive that they really want peace. They want the destruction of Israel like they have always wanted. They just got cleverer over time to create a legitimate reason for their desired annihilation of the Jews.

Posted by: SonofMoses at August 24, 2004 4:42 AM

In failing to see things clearly, successive Israeli governments have failed their own people.

I think its more complicated than that. Most Israelis have a dislike/fear of the arabs for all the wars they have put them through, so when the suicide bombs started going off, people demanded action. Conservative hardliners always do well in war times. People want strong leaders. So its the people who demanded the hardcore tactics of Sharons government.

However the best way to deal with them would have been the opposite, to kill them with kindness, not bullets. Imagine if the world was regularly shown TV images of Israelis building roads, hospitals and parks in the palestinian villages. Creating jobs for them etc.

This would have made it very difficult for them. How could they justify terrorist tactics against a state that treats them so well? They would have been powerless. Not to mention the incentive to kill would have been diminished. When people have nothing to lose its so much easier to turn them into soldiers.

Unfortunately the Isrealis would never have voted for a government that did this. It would be seen as too accomodating and soft. So now they have an escalating war which will never get resolved.

Its too bad, sometimes you have to understand human psychology to win a war, brute force is not always the best weapon under all circumstances.

Posted by: SonofMoses at August 24, 2004 5:13 AM

Hugh wrote:
First, the "Palestinian people" were invented. And as few people seemed to realize that the toponym "Palestine" was not in use in the Muslim world, that there had been no such place under the 500 years of Ottoman rule, nor under the Arab rule, nor that of the Byzantines --

Hugh you certainly know what you are talking about.....Benjamin Netanyahu former israel PM once said " Palestine is a land without people and palestinians are a people without land"

How unfortunate that people and the media do not even bother to question this at all.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 24, 2004 8:24 AM

Will we ever have any peace from these death-cults? How can you deal with people who think yawning is "of the devil" and that their god hates yawning but likes sneezing? Look it up.

Christianity and Judaism have just as many stupid and manipulative tricks to keep people in constant fear of offending the deity that “sees all and knows all” as Islam does.

Any human endeavor be it religion or anything else, that is driven by fear is doomed to create misery and despair.

The imagery of death and dying and the glorification of death that predominates the major religions of the world should give us some “clue” as to their true nature purpose.

Our one life is the only thing we have that is truly our own. Religious zealots whose worldview is DEATH = GOOD (heaven, virgins, hashish, eternal ‘life’, streets of gold, etc.) and that LIFE = FEAR (of hell, god(s) punishment, and inhuman rules required for salvation, etc.) see DEATH as the answer to their and your problems in LIFE. And they will take your only LIFE from you in their vain attempts to please an invisible parent. A better definition of insanity you couldn’t possibly ask for. And another reason RELIGION=EVIL when the death-cultist’s personal religion is the only one that has the TRUTH and it must be propagated no matter what the cost in human lives and misery. That is nothing but EVIL.

Life is the answer. Learning how to live in this world with the one life that each of us has should be the main effort of humanity. Instead a large portion of us are out trying to please invisible buddies (insert favorite deities name here) that we think are going to reward us if we dance to stupid rules made up by backward human jerks, bullies, and tyrants whose true purpose was to control other human beings, not get them closer to some unknowable diety.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 24, 2004 10:41 AM

F.g.~ As a Catholic, I have NO clue what you are talking about. Except where it relates to islam.

Posted by: Gary at August 24, 2004 11:40 AM

Gary ~ F.g.~ As a Catholic, I have NO clue what you are talking about. Except where it relates to islam.

Well Gary, have you read your BIBLE lately? Do I need to mention the Passion of Christ? The violent death of Christ is the cornerstone of the Christian religion. The Catholic Church is infamous for such atrocities as the CRUSADES and the Spanish Inquisition. Convert or die was the cry then. Just think of how many cultures have been subverted and destroyed by the Catholic Church in its campaign to convert (save) the world.

If you think Christianity is any less bloody or less death related than Islam then you really do need to get a CLUE (or a Bible) Gary.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 24, 2004 3:04 PM

Once again we have been given a gift by some Jews and will we use it to protect ourselves or let our enemys get it to destory us??

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ebtomcat.htm#EINSTEIN
Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the universe]." This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein believed in the Christian God. Used this way, it is out of context; it refers to Einstein's refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by quantum theory. Furthermore, Einstein's religious background was Jewish rather than Christian.
A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy, and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941. In it he says:

The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal.
For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress.
In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself.
This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task ...

The other gift other than the 10 comandments was a way to protect the Human race from this evil that is set to kill alll who will not follow their god can be disstoryed!!!

The hate of the mulsums goes beyond Jews this all must hear take the wax out of their ears and hear the truth!

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”
Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’

Hugh as always love your work!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

PS
A gun in hand is beter than 2 cops on the phone!!

Posted by: Catherine at August 24, 2004 3:09 PM

jihadbuster -

Thanks man, I see the light now; the scales have fallen from my eyes! Your logical and rational assessment of me and what I had to say was right on. NOT! Number one, every assumption you made was wrong. You seem to be just another religious intellectually milk-feed jerk that thinks his religion is the only one and if the world’s population doesn’t get behind it they are all lost. The primary difference between your (contrived) worldview and those of Islamic religionists is geographical in nature. Fundamentally you both think everyone else is wrong and you’re the only one with the truth and there is hell to pay should anyone disagree with you. That’s basically it dingus. The horrors unleashed on the world by the war between the religions pales any notion of good that you think it has been doing. I tell you what, you should get a life that isn't ruled by the fear you'll go to hell and be tortured for all eternity if you haven't completed some ritual or followed all the rules, laws, or other messages from the "spirit world." Your comments about institutions of higher learning tell a great deal about you. Your neck is as red as it gets Mr. Jihadbuster. What a joke. It is people like you that start and maintain Jihads not atheists or agnostics. You guys start them, you don’t bust them up. You are the one that needs to get a REAL life instead of the FANTASY one constructed of superstitious nonsense that you live in now.

I don’t care what anyone chooses to believe about god, the flesh, and the devil as long as they respect the rights of others to believe differently. Unfortunately the major religions and those who passionately ascribe to them rarely do. Rather they would force their brand of beliefs down our throats for our own good because they are so "concerned" for us.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 24, 2004 4:25 PM

f.g. wrote "Christianity and Judaism have just as many stupid and manipulative tricks to keep people in constant fear of offending the deity that “sees all and knows all” as Islam does."

As a Jew I have no idea what the hell you're talking about and, yes, I have read the Torah lately.

Have you?

Here's a story for you. A couple thousand years ago, a king walked up to Rabbi Hillel and said "If you can tell me everything that's in that book of yours while standing on one foot, I'll convert." Rabbi Hillel stood on one foot and replied "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. The rest is commentary. Go study."

Take Rabbi Hillel's advice, f.g., and study the texts you are so quick to demean before you make another post such as that.

Posted by: Whistling Dixie at August 24, 2004 5:17 PM

F.G.~ You are an IDIOT. KeithJoy does better and he's wrong on most counts.

Go. Away.

Posted by: Gary at August 24, 2004 5:52 PM

Dr. Phibes--

It would have taken more than a psychotropic to cure what ailed Mo and his merry band, it would have taken a proper philosophy.

Ethics is the branch of philosophy that addresses the question of what is good or not good. A moral code is based on ethics, which provides the "standard" by which good is judged. A moral code is a set of values which is CHOSEN TO GUIDE OUR THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS.

To one degree or other, for reasons that are too long to go into here, most of us have chosen human life as the "standard of the good." If a thought or action tends to support life, it is good; it it tends to threaten life, it is not good.

Mo not only failed to recognize that human life is the standard of the good, and therefore the fundamental value on which to base a moral code, he deliberately chose death as his standard. He worked very hard to make human life as miserable an experience as possible, a condition that one could only escape by dying.

If you choose to base your thoughts and behavior on the notion that death, not human life, is good, then they will be substantially different from those of us who choose life.

Not even Haldol can help someone who thinks like that.

Posted by: cubed at August 24, 2004 6:10 PM

Oh btw, f.g.? If it wasn't clear to you the first time (and it is obvious it wasn't)- I have NO clue what you are talking about. I was raised to be a good (Catholic) man, not what you choose to distort my faith into.

Make any more sense?

There are some atheists who post here whom I would be pleased to call friends. Unlike you, they prefer to Use their minds and see the bigger picture.

Christianity will be here Loooong after islam bites the dust. Get used to it.

Posted by: Gary at August 24, 2004 6:17 PM

Well you have me there Whistling Dixie, I have only studied English translations.

And Gary, touche, that was a wonderful retort there. "Go away." Can I use that?

I'm puzzled though, just what part of the "bigger picture" do you think I'm not seeing?

"Christianity will be here Loooong after islam bites the dust. Get used to it" Thanks Gary you're making my point for me. I rest my case.

Peace everyone. I really mean that because that is really what we all need and want, not more reasons to hate one another.

There is room enough in this world for all the ideas that anyone could possibly have, but we can't let there be any room for intolerance. Oppressing other people, in any manner, is morally wrong and produces only more hatred and violence.

Do I think we should be after terrorists? Hell yes. Do I think we should find and punish anyone who aids them in anyway? Yes, indeed. Do I trust Islamists? F*** no. Do I trust the religious right? You're kidding me ... right? Am I mad as hell that American men and women, some just boys and girls, are dying for WMDs that don't exist and (the somewhat revisionist version)that f***ing bunch of assholes that didn't have the balls to stand up to Saddam themselves? Yeah, I'm pretty damn mad most of the time now.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 24, 2004 6:54 PM

so according to your definition, we who are Christian here are automatically oppressing you?

No wonder I don't get what you are saying. it is total bullshit.

If you were coming here to talk about islam, as you finally got around to, why didn't you just do that in the first place, instead of pulling up centuries-old errors of Christianity? Errors that we have long since learned from and put behind us, I might add.

And NO, Hitler was not a christian. no neo-nazi today could ever be, either.

Posted by: Gary at August 24, 2004 7:07 PM

Gary wrote: "so according to your definition, we who are Christian here are automatically oppressing you?"

Uh Gary, no, I wasn't refering to myself. I was refering to everyone's ideas about religion, that also includes people other than Catholics Gary. It's this dogged insistance that anyone has the corner on the truth that is the heart of the Islam/Christian/Jew issue. Besides fellow, you couldn't oppress me if you had two people helping you.

Go take a history class or something for Pete's sake.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 24, 2004 7:42 PM

Oh heavens children -- such a fuss!

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes unto the Father but through him? When asked to show the Father to his followers, Phillip I think, Jesus said something like "he who sees me sees the Father."

A rather bold statement that must be either objectively true or false.

But somewhere Jesus said, along with love thy neighbor, that no one comes unto him, unless the Father enables him.

So, either Jesus is who he claims to be or he is a liar.

If he is the former, then bickering over the matter is pointless and a person will presumably be enabled by the Father, as Jesus taught, and recognize him for who he truely is.

In this case, the matter is not between individuals, but between individuals and Jesus.

If Jesus is the latter, then the matter is settled too in a way, and pointles diatribe will just give you gas.

So, let the tongue lashings desist and focus your energies on the more temporal danger that awaits all of us.

The polemics can be worked out in a higher venue for the rest of eternity.

More to the point, if Jesus is the former -- its all worked out already anyway!

Posted by: witness at August 24, 2004 8:55 PM

Oh heavens children -- such a fuss!

Didn't Jesus say that no one comes unto the Father but through him? When asked to show the Father to his followers, Phillip I think, Jesus said something like "he who sees me sees the Father."

A rather bold statement that must be either objectively true or false.

But somewhere Jesus said, along with love thy neighbor, that no one comes unto him, unless the Father enables him.

So, either Jesus is who he claims to be or he is a liar.

If he is the former, then bickering over the matter is pointless and a person will presumably be enabled by the Father, as Jesus taught, and recognize him for who he truely is.

In this case, the matter is not between individuals, but between individuals and Jesus.

If Jesus is the latter, then the matter is settled too in a way, and pointles diatribe will just give you gas.

So, let the tongue lashings desist and focus your energies on the more temporal danger that awaits all of us.

The polemics can be worked out in a higher venue for the rest of eternity.

More to the point, if Jesus is the former -- its all worked out already anyway!

Posted by: witness at August 24, 2004 8:56 PM

f.g.,

You're not the only atheist here, but the crux of the matter is not WHAT you believe regarding the supernatural or one's personal relationship (for lack of a better phrase) but rather HOW you relate to others who happen to be opposed to that belief.

As rudely as some have treated you here, they don't feel that they have a religious and dogmatically sanctioned right to personally kill you. This is the main difference between what is written in the Koran versus what is written in other religious texts.

Posted by: kafira at August 24, 2004 9:29 PM

There are major, central correspondences and contrasts (of these latter, some are cosmetic, while others are vexed and vital) between radical, Revolutionary Islamism/ Jihadism and Nazism. When it comes to rank antisemitism, they see identically eye-to-eye.

Recently, in “Anatomy of Fascism”, by R. O. Paxton, Nazism in Germany and Italian Fascism were characterized as: “obsessively preoccupied with community decline and compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, combined with a mass party of committed militants, which abandons democracy and embraces redemptive violence”. Additionally, he could’ve largely included Communism in that description... and, definitely, contemporary Islamo-fascism.

But, finally, Nazis insist that “Aryans” are the Earth’s exclusive “master-race”, while the Islamist zealots - in practice - are Arab supremacist in predisposition (but slightly less so on the criterion of ethnicity alone, than upon a True Believer’s TOTAL adoption of the Arabic tongue and Arab culture and mentality, etc.) Bottom line: both ideologies are thoroughly Totalitarian.

Nazis, Fascists and proto-Islamo-fascists collaborated tightly before and during WWII (in the Balkans, North Africa and Middle East); they’re back together again today. A classic illustration of this is a website called “Radio Islam”, an intensive and intricate conflation of the antisemitism of the “Mein Kampf” and the Koran - Nazis and Islamo-fascists melded-in together, feeding off one anothers’ ultra-violent nonsense, BOOSTING the venomous lunacy of each.

By repute, about four years ago, European &/or Latin American Nazis/neo-Nazis hosted a confab at a resort in the “Tri-Border Area” of Argentina, Paraguay and Brazil, which was attended by a cross-section of Mideastern Islamo-fascist terrorism - from the “secularist” gangs of the PLO to arch-fundamentalist el-Qaeda, as well as Hezbollah (patronized by Iran), other Lebanese factions, plus those squads being sheltered by Syria and Iraq, Islamic Jihad and Hamas (sponsored by the ur-terrorist Islamic Brotherhood, “el-Ikhwan el-Muslimin”), inter alia.

At this “Terrorist Summit”, the (Soviet-trained) “Terrorist International” and the recrudescent “Jihad Inc” entered into a MERGER. Pointing strongly to this conclusion is that, following the reported warm agreement to do so at the “Convention”, the “el-Aqsa Intefada” - which the vile, PA/PLO-Hamas-Jihad Islami-“Pal” Hezbollah “President”, Yasir Arafat, calculatedly ignited shortly afterwards - has established a type of joint paramilitary “High Command”, the “Palestine National & Islamic Forces Combat Front”, organized to maximally mobilize the efforts and resources of ALL the terrorist groupings in the ongoing, “Palestinian” terror-offensive.

The bloody Islamo-fascists and the Nazis can get along FINE nowadays - provided that technical topics, propaganda, their shared history and their overlapping, genocidal views on the Jews are the sole subjects of common interest which they stick to.

However, should these two cruel barbarians ever venture into the touchy territory of which of them ought to be the future Ruler of the Judenrein planet they seek, they’d indubitably, immediately, wildly, be directly at one another’s throats! - In the wash-up, though, concretely, objectively, there’s not a whit of MEANINGFUL difference between them, none whatsoever.

Posted by: HGII at August 24, 2004 10:10 PM

f.g.,

Your attacks on Christianity and Judaism are baseless,without merit and are typical of an atheist heathen such as yourself.

They clearly show your lack of knowledge and understanding of these two religions.

I doubt that you have ever read the Old or New Testament.

Futhermore to equate Judaism and Christianity with Islam futher shows your complete ignorance of the fundamental and extreme differences that exist between these religions.

"The horrors unleashed on the world by the war between the religions pales any notion of good that you think it has been doing"

It is the Islamists,if you haven't noticed, that are perpetrating the death and desruction that has been unleashed on the world today.

There are numerous Christian and Jewish organizations that provide humanitarian aid and assistance to the many suffering people of this planet.

I will leave you with the following:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made. John 1:1-3

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

1 ¶ And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:1-18

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 24, 2004 10:17 PM

Son of Infidel,

Your assumptions are as appalling as your presumption to preach to me. Read the Bible, well yeah. I was raised in one of the original colonies, hobby at early age (11)-comparative religion, died in the wool Southern Baptist origin, Pentecostal/Charismatic adventures, Fringe Cult adventures, Fundamentalist/Holiness episodes ,Cult studies and so forth..

I’ve read the Bible through several times in numerous translations some of which are sitting a few feet from me on the shelf. Get off your high horse and humble yourself before god sonny boy. Your pride shines like old Moses’ face. Repent! Don't make me quote scripture.

The subject of my posting, which has been slightly demonstrated in the microcosm of this thread btw, (yikes, I must really be tired) was to point out that much of the strife and needless bickering we are experiencing is caused by ignorant people caught up their favorite fantasy world view. You might as well be taking the works of Tolkien as non-fiction and fabricating a world view from it complete with gods and whatnot. And hey, more power to you brother. Just stay in your yard.

And you are perfectly right; many religious organizations have done and continue to do great works of humanitarian nature. I look at Mother Theresa and how she lived her life and just stand in awe. What a tremendous human being. There are many, many, more who do good works as well. There is no denying that.

However, if we would put the man-hours that the human race squanders on spiritual matters, that are essentially unknowable and by nature cannot be substantiated, into humanitarian efforts in an attempt to relieve the pain of common folk we’d already be in heaven.

Chill.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 25, 2004 2:18 AM

I also meant to say that I actually did believe it all (The Bible, Santa Claus, etc.)in a big way and spent many years as a religious zealot before finally coming to an understanding of grace that the Baptists found too libertine. Later, after some rather nasty life experiences I want bore anyone with, I had a lucid moment or too. I realized that I just couldn’t rationalize away what had been staring me in the face for a long time. The whole notion of invisible all powerful beings directing, influencing us, and essentially owning us (demons, angels, gods, creatures from the ID :) is something “we” (we being the human race) made up. Primitive superstition distilled as literature. In the remaining years of my life I want to face it with my eyes open. I need something that is real.

Nevertheless religious texts provide great insight and guidance in some the most basic of human needs. It’s good in that respect. The problem is when you take it all too seriously and get pulled into that fictional world of Prophets delivering “The Word of God”. Yeah, uh huh, I have drunk deeply from that well. It can boarder on madness.

Chill,

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 25, 2004 3:00 AM

I also meant to say that I actually did believe it all (The Bible, Santa Claus, etc.)in a big way and spent many years as a religious zealot before finally coming to an understanding of grace that the Baptists found too libertine. Later, after some rather nasty life experiences I want bore anyone with, I had a lucid moment or too. I realized that I just couldn’t rationalize away what had been staring me in the face for a long time. The whole notion of invisible all powerful beings directing, influencing us, and essentially owning us (demons, angels, gods, creatures from the ID :) is something “we” (we being the human race) made up. Primitive superstition distilled as literature. In the remaining years of my life I want to face it with my eyes open. I need something that is real.

Nevertheless religious texts provide great insight and guidance in some the most basic of human needs. It’s good in that respect. The problem is when you take it all too seriously and get pulled into that fictional world of Prophets delivering “The Word of God”. Yeah, uh huh, I have drunk deeply from that well. It can boarder on madness.

Chill,

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 25, 2004 3:01 AM

f.g.,

The tone of your reply is one of anger and hostility towards Christianity.

"after some rather nasty life experiences I want bore anyone with"

Evidently something must have gone wrong somewhere in your life.

Futhermore, to state that man squanders his time on spiritual matters is truly an ignorant and foolish statement.

It is the very teachings of Christ that prompt us to help our fellow man.

"Let not the needy be forgotten nor the hope of the poor taken away"

For one to have been exposed to the teaching of Christ Jesus the "Son of God" as you were, and the fact that you reject them so vehemently is troubling.

Tell me exactly what it is that the Lord Jesus taught, that you find so ofensive?

"Yeah, uh huh, I have drunk deeply from that well"

It sounds as if you have "drunk deeply" from the well of Satan or you have some deep rooted emotional problems.

Return to your roots and accept Christ into your heart and you will find true peace,"Peace which the world can not give"

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 25, 2004 4:51 AM

"A LITTLE or superficial knowledge of philosophy may incline the mind of man to atheism, but a further proceeding therein doth bring the mind of man back again."
- Francis Bacon, The Advancement of Learning

Posted by: daughter of patriots at August 25, 2004 7:42 AM

Posted by F.G
If you think Christianity is any less bloody or less death related than Islam then you really do need to get a CLUE (or a Bible) Gary.

F.G

With all fue respect I think you should take a good look at your history books and put a book mark in them, becuase the last cruisade was a fairly long time ago, and contrary to what you are trying to lead us to think, the cruisades were NOT sanctioned by the Bible, or Jesus, or the Apsotles.

But the opposite is found in the Quran and Islam, where the sanctioning of Killing, unbelievers is not only preached and taught today in Mosques but ( as if you may not have been aware) been carried out in the form of terrorism as you see it.

If you claim to have been a very religious person (Christian) then you would be more than consciously aware of the teaching of Jesus that the central thrust of his Life, sayings, and examples were peaceful and motivated by love...even for his captors and enemies.

Go and study Islam and tell me wether you find the same in the prophet Muhammad, his life, his teachings and his examples.

Dont compare what previous generations did in the name of Christ, that does NOT make the Bible wrong or Violent, that only higlights the hypocricy in Men.

But on that point, when was the last time you read of a Christian fundamentalist plot to detonate bombs in public places to kill innocent people?? What Mcveigh? I hear you say?? I guess ONE person makes the full statistic for some people.

Oh hang on what about Ireland? wow now theres a telling tale....except there is one problem there, ITS NOT ABOUT RELIGION, its about politics, and even if it was about religion, it would go against Jesus teachings and righfully condemned by the BIble.

But you look at the history of Islam and read the Quran and then read the hadiths, and if you come back with the same conclusions with your comparison of Islam and Christianity, then I can only assume that you are bereft of understanding and discenrment.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 25, 2004 8:21 AM

I've read Hundreds>/b> of history books, many on religion, F.g. You still have NO clue what you are talking about, nor shall you ever convince me. I can't help that all you can see and spout is Hatred.

enough of this. Next thread!

Posted by: Gary at August 25, 2004 9:05 AM

Yes I hate nuts that think they are hot-wired to God and ignore basic human decency to kill non-combatants in cowardly and inhuman ways.

As for Satan, well Gary Satan is just in your head, and obviously not mine because Satan is just part of the super-story you've bought into. And I don’t see demons behind every bush anymore either.

Relax man, I'm not going to subvert the world by pointing out that the core of the world's problems today lies in the laps of religious nuts on both sides of the Atlantic am I? I don't think so.

Posted by: f.g. at August 25, 2004 1:41 PM

Relax man, I'm not going to subvert the world by pointing out that the core of the world's problems today lies in the laps of religious nuts on both sides of the Atlantic am I? I don't think so.

Yes...but once again there is a huge chasm of difference between the two.

A Fundamental Christian will still pray for you and tell you that Jesus loves you,or even tell you that you are condemed to hell if you dont believe, BUT THAT IS WHERE IT STOPS WITH THEM.

Muslims will not only tell you that you have to convert to Islam or you will go to hell, BUT THEY ARE COMMANDED TO SEND YOU THERE IF YOU DONT. I dont think I need to go into giving evidence here, if you cannot see this then I' sorry for you.

Posted by: Joe Bananas at August 25, 2004 7:09 PM

A M E N !!!!!

Posted by: witness at August 25, 2004 8:01 PM

f.g.,

Clearly you have been proven wrong.

As I stated previously you have some unresolved emotional problems and your mind is somewhat unbalanced...

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 25, 2004 8:27 PM

>Clearly you have been proven wrong.

Well with the level of thought you guys are putting into this I can see where you would be convinced of that although I’m not clear about what you think I have been proven wrong about.

>As I stated previously you have some unresolved
>emotional problems and your mind is somewhat
>unbalanced...

So anyone that doesn't buy into your religious fantasies and pray to your invisible friends is mentally unbalanced? I see. You must understand that however logical to you that may seem it appears to be down right insane to me.

You boys play in your sandbox and slap each other on the backs for putting the "atheist" (which I am not) in his place. You are such great folks; I want to be just like you. What great human beings you seem to be. Keep up the good work spreading your unique brand of "Jesus' love" for all mankind.

Figuring out which religion is the “Genuine” one ultimately requires a step of faith in which you suspend disbelief so that you can participate. Many of us brought up in the US are Christians by default and few bother to investigate anything else. A great many if not most people ascribe to the religion or politics of their peers and parents and have no desire to look into any thing else. What you get is a bunch of people believing something for no better reason than that is what they were taught and that is all they see. The Arab world is pretty much that way. They are in the freaking dark ages of human rights.

I’m more concerned about the Muslims disregard for the rights of woman and children than I am that they don’t love Jesus. The reason they treat their woman like shit is because their religion sanctions it, the women have let them get away with it for centuries and there is no RULE OF LAW in the Middle-East. It is the RULE OF RELIGION.

As a general rule I agree that Christianity is less of a danger than Islam and Buddhists seem to be not much of danger to anyone. But you guys seem to have missed the point about the concept of religion as a danger to rational thought. Once you get someone to believe “God is on their side” they’ll do just about anything. They’ll even ignore there scriptures blindly following their leaders because they are “God’s men”. Christians do that just as much as Muslims do. That is dangerous.

It would be hard to believe you guys are for real if it weren't for my experiences as one of you myself.

Take a deep breath and go on about your business. The mean agnostic will leave you alone now. God forbide that he would make you think about religious belief systems and how they control the world we live in.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 26, 2004 12:19 PM

f.g.:

You're trying to accomplish too much at once.

The focus of this site is anti-jihad but posters frequently degenerate into partisan or parochial philosophical debates which wind up being divisive.

Please join us in the fight against jihad, against islamism, against the establishment of a worldwide caliphate.

Let's focus on our common cause rather than on our differences. These differences of viewpoint will always exist but they distract from the issue at hand, one which is critical for our survival as a nation and as a civilization.

People of ALL persuasions need to use whatever political, spiritual, moral, ethical, etc. resources are available to them to defeat this enemy. Squabbling over what are, in the face of the greater threat, lesser differences, is self-defeating and only gives the enemy a perceived advantage. (I say perceived because I firmly believe in our absolute commitment to unity in the final analysis.)

With all due respect, some of your comments show a remarkable lack of knowledge about islam. May I suggest starting with Robert Spencer's books, then Ibn Warraq's Why I Am Not a Muslim, as well as th qur'an and ahadith? (I apologize if you've been studying islam for as long as most of us here - some for years - but your comments seem to indicate otherwise.)

Posted by: CGW at August 26, 2004 1:06 PM

f.g.,

Tell me exactly what it is that the Lord Jesus Christ taught, that you find so ofensive?

I am still waiting for your responce to the above question...

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 26, 2004 1:42 PM

Typo: "offensive"

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 26, 2004 1:44 PM

CGW

My point is we must beware of the danger of not recognizing the duplicity and hypocrisy of declaring only ONE religion toxic.

Islam = Bad I get it. Let's just not try to replace it with another equally insane mindset and say we did good.

And you are correct my knowledge of Islam is rudimentary at best but I'm working on it.

Pardon my slobbering rant.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 26, 2004 1:47 PM

"Tell me exactly what it is that the Lord Jesus Christ taught, that you find so ofensive?"

Where have I said anything bad about Jesus Christ?
Almost any time I start talking bad about Religion someone assumes I have something personal against their God,god(s),or favorite patron saint. Religion is a human thing and it is humans that create the problems that I find "offensive". Invisible celestial beings haven't ever bothered me.

Posted by: f.g. at August 26, 2004 1:53 PM

f.g.,

It is obvious from your remarks, that you have a strong dislike for Christianity.

As I previously stated, I believe you may have suffered some type of emotional trauma, this could explain the above.

I suggest that you expand your knowledge of Islam, this will help you from sounding ignorant when you post comments here.

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 26, 2004 3:02 PM

SOF,

Just what did I say about Islam that was so off base? Seriously.

My problem is with all claims of contact with the supernatural. It is fiction and superstition and the world is being run by it.

As far as this emotional trama thing goes, get off it, name me three people that aren't in the middle of or recovering from some emtional trama in their lives at some point. Good grief man, stop practicing medicine on the web. You're a quack.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 26, 2004 3:20 PM

f.g.,

The power of the Lord is real, not as you say "fiction and superstition".

If you choose to deny this , that is your error.

I pray that one day you will return to your Christian roots.

All the best and May the Lord bless you and keep you.

Sincerely,

Son of Infidel

Posted by: Son of Infidel at August 26, 2004 4:13 PM

SOF,

I appreciate the sentiment if not the content. Now stop pouring coals on my head.

Peace,

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 26, 2004 7:38 PM