Attacks against children in the United States will be a BIG mistake.

Posted by: epg at October 7, 2004 4:29 PM

Attention jihadis (I know some of you read this site):

If you "pull a Beslan" on America, there are going to be nuclear warheads a-headin' your way. Liberals will be unable to prevent it, and frankly, many of us won't even want to prevent it.

You want to see Iran, Pakistan, or Indonesia turn into Afghanistan Part Two? That's what you're going to get.

Remember: America "gets a Beslan" and Islam goes the way of the Inca.

Posted by: kj at October 7, 2004 4:41 PM

This is just too horible to imagine, but do you think the media would name the enemy- finally?

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 7, 2004 4:47 PM

An attack on a school here in the US by Islamic Jihadists would certainly cause a great deal of trouble for American Islamists. Like the Jihadists care. Islamic Jihadists are murdering morons who kill their own without much of a thought.

Another thing, I don't know if the rest of the world has forgotten that a great many of us here in the US own guns, lots of guns, extra guns to hand out to neighbors even.

fg.

Posted by: f.g. at October 7, 2004 4:52 PM

horrible PIMF

Posted by: Carolyn2 at October 7, 2004 4:58 PM

A Beslan repeat in the US is almost unthinkable. There's no way in ANYONE gains anything from such a disaster. I eman what's the point of carrying out a Beslan if you can't ultimately claim responsibility and watch your stock soar amongst jihadi scum ("Heil great new leader!") and Palestinian pseudo-victims (remember the dancing ini the streets when the towers fell).

There's No way anyone will dare remotely wanna be associated with such a carnage.

Besides, the Feds have just issued guidelines, there's no need to panic as of now. Or so I hope.

Posted by: voletti at October 7, 2004 5:16 PM

We have Jihadis here in the West, probably born here, who are going to be the main threat in years to come. However, it will not be American muslims who attack America, but more likely British or European muslims who will do so. And similarly, it will be American muslims who go on the Jihad around the world. In their own home countries, they will be content to offer financial and other support to visiting Jihadis. The reason for such an arrangement has a simple explanation; not to put the local ummah's existence in jeopardy.

ISLAMIC TERRORISM AND ISLAMIC IMMIGRATION:

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/CFIA/CFIAReport112801.htm

Posted by: DP111 at October 7, 2004 5:18 PM

DO YOU THINK THE WARNING COULD HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE vAN THAT EXPLODED OUTSIDE A SCHOOL YESTERDAY???

f.g. is right but we will we hear or will they hush it up like the van yesterday?

Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Bush Sanctions China - Espionage From Beijing
Charles R. Smith
Thursday, Sept. 30, 2004
The Bush administration has announced a new series of sanctions against China. The sanctions lodged against Chinese Army owned companies were imposed because of illegal arms technology transfers to Iran.

HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE HEARD THIS??

PRC Bribes Candadian Diplomat
The rise in military tensions with Beijing also come on the heels of a major Chinese/Canadian scandal. The Asian Pacific Post has reported that a high ranking Canadian diplomat based in China has left his post suddenly after he was suspected of accepting bribes to help Chinese nationals enter Canada illegally.

AND THEN THERE THERES THIS??

China's Economic War - Stealing Jobs and Technology From America
Charles R. Smith
Tuesday, Sept. 14, 2004
According to GM China, the similarities between its Spark minicar and Chinese Chery Automobile Corp.'s QQ model are more than just mere coincidence. In fact, if you examine the automobiles, they are virtually identical

Illegal Jeeps
"Chrysler's concerns were amplified when Chrysler CEO Robert Eton was made aware that knock-offs of Chrysler's Jeep Cherokee had been seen on the streets of Beijing. When complaining about this to Chinese officials, he reportedly was told that this (the ability to copy Chrysler's Jeep Cherokee) was a good sign of progress in China's auto industry, about which he should be pleased. Apparently, he was not, and Chrysler soon canceled plans to go ahead with the Shanghai plant," states the report.

The failed Chrysler deal is not the only example. Audi, the German car maker, also had a sweet deal with China to manufacture its very popular 5000 sedan during the 1990s. However, once the terms of the deal expired, Audi was hustled out of China.
Suddenly, the same Beijing car maker began producing the "Red Flag" sedan. The Red Flag was identical to the Audi 5000 right down to the last nut and bolt - with the single exception of a plastic red-flag hood ornament.
Chinese officials scoffed at Audi's accusations of out-right theft and cited the red flag as proof the vehicle was different.
Nearly a decade has passed and things have not changed much. A recent study issued by the U.S.-China Economic and Security Commission warned of Beijing's policy of piracy and illegal technology transfer requirements.

Reprinted from NewsMax.com
Tuesday, Oct. 5, 2004 12:02 a.m. EDT
Iraqi Physicist: Saddam Funded Nuke Program Till 2003
The Iraqi physicist who ran his country's uranium enrichment program says that Saddam Hussein continued to fund efforts to develop nuclear weapons right up until the U.S. invasion in March 2003.

"Saddam kept funding the IAEC [Iraq Atomic Energy Commission] from 1991 ... until the war in 2003," reveals Dr. Mahdi Obeidi in his new book, "The Bomb in My Garden." While Saddam's nuclear program officially ended after the first Gulf War, the reality, says Dr. Obeidi, was far different.
"I was developing the centrifuge for the weapons" right through 1997, he now admits.
In an interview with WABC Radio's John Gambling, the Iraqi centrifuge scientist said he was ordered to keep his nuclear bombmaking research concealed from U.N. weapons inspectors.
And even after 1997 - when Saddam's nuke program went dormant - Obeidi says he continued to keep his centrifuge plans in safe storage - in a cardboard box buried beneath a lotus plant in his front yard.
"I had to maintain the program to the bitter end," Obeidi explained, saying his only other choice was death. All the while the Iraqi physicist was aware that he held the key to Saddam's continuing nuclear ambitions.
"The centrifuge is the single most dangerous piece of nuclear technology," he writes. "With advances in centrifuge technology, it is now possible to conceal a uranium enrichment program inside a single warehouse."

YEA IN THE GARDEN UNDER HIS LOTAS PLANT?? AND WE ARE TO BELIEVE THEIR WAS NOTHING GOING ON TO BELIEVE MULSUMS WHO THINK IT IS OKAY TO LIE??

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3585235
8:35am (UK)
Wales Vanishes from EU Yearbook Map

By Laura May, PA News
Wales has been missed off a map used by European Union statisticians to illustrate the front cover of their official annual yearbook.

The map of Europe shows England and Scotland in the correct position but between the Welsh border and Ireland there is nothing but the Irish Sea.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/485871.html
Abu Amin had been a member of Ahmed Jibril's Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.

According to the London-based Al-Hayat newspaper, police suspect that Abu Amin, a good friend of Khalil's made the telephone call which ignited the explosive charge attached to his car at around 11 A.M.

Sources close to Abu Amin, who apparently quit Ahmed Jibril's organization two years ago, denied that Amin was involved in the assassination.

Reprinted from NewsMax.com

Soviet Missiles Seized From ETA Caches
NewsMax Wires
Wednesday, Oct. 6, 2004
BAYONNE, France -- French investigators seized portable Soviet-made anti-aircraft missiles found in caches used by ETA, dealing another blow to the armed Basque separatist group whose political leader was arrested over the weekend.

The two SAM-7 shoulder-fired short-range surface-to-air missiles, still in their original crates, were recovered Monday night from underground caches beneath houses in Urrugne and Briscous in southwest France, police said Tuesday. ETA, which is blamed in Spain for more than 800 deaths since the late 1960s, is thought to have purchased the weapons in the 1980s, police said. But the group has never used such missiles in any of its attacks.
Reports circulating Tuesday in the Basque country said there were two missiles and suggested ETA bought them from Irish traffickers. Connections between the Irish Republican Army and ETA are well-known.

ETA has rarely been considered a weapons trafficker, only a buyer on the black market.

The missiles form part of a giant hoard of weaponry recovered from various caches in coordinated raids over the weekend. Police also netted Mikel Albizu Iriarte, ETA's suspected leader since 1993, and his partner, Soledad Iparraguirre, who is accused in 15 killings.

The French and Spanish governments trumpeted the arrests as an important victory in the fight against the armed group that has carried out bombings and killings in Spain for an independent Basque state.

Police found 880 pounds of dynamite, hundreds of pounds of chemicals for making bombs, 40,000 rounds of ammunition, thousands of bomb detonators and dozens of guns, including assault rifles. Abundant documentation also was seized.

Also Tuesday, Mikel Albizu, Iparraguirre and nine other suspects rounded up over the weekend were being transferred from Basque country to Paris, where they were to be locked up at headquarters of the anti-terrorism unit of national police, judicial officials said.

ETA wants an independent Basque homeland in northern Spain. The group is declared a terrorist gang on both sides of the Atlantic.

LOOKS LIKE THEY ARE ALINED WITH THE UBL CROWD AFTER ALL???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DEFEAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE EYES OF THE WORLD TO THEIR THREAT AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at October 7, 2004 5:28 PM

I was with the Guardian Angels conducting such sweeps during the sniper spree in Washington and Virginia a couple years ago, and I can tell you it will take a considerable amount of manpower and constant surveillance to prevent such a tragedy from occurring here in the United States. Even with the military background and martial arts training of our members, we would still be no match for a heavily armed group of jihadists determined to blast their way into a school and massacre its occupants. The school systems and law enforcement agencies simply do not have the resources to effectively protect all the nation's schools. The only realistic solution is to allow armed civilians to sweep school grounds and monitor activity in their vicinities, which is highly unlikely given the government's wariness of employing "vigilantes" and "paramilitaries" to assist them in this task. What we are more likely to see are false promises regarding the ability of law enforcement to protect our children from terrorist attacks.
One of the things that has got to change post-9/11 is the government's attitude towards an armed populace, and that it is an asset to be employed in the fight against domestic terrorism. This means the Second Amendment will have to be respected in-full, and that citizens will have more latitude to defend themselves when confronted with people who seek to destroy us and our nation.

Posted by: Rottweiller at October 7, 2004 5:35 PM

Dancing in the streets after 9/11 happened right here in Canada, you didn't need to go as far as Israel to see that. G-d forbid such a thing should never happen here, because I don't think anyone could prevent the innocent Muslims from being rounded up and torn to shreds along with the guilty ones. I still have nightmares about Beslan, and can't imagine such horror in the U.S.

Posted by: libbysmom at October 7, 2004 5:40 PM

Just remember, they did find a disk with the emergency plans for the San Diego school system when they arrested a man in Iraq.

OT:

I have gotten several e-mails from members concerning "karl" and "linda".

Don't get caught up in the flamers posts.

Always remember, this is a tactic to get everyone upset and off topic.

Any newcomers that may just be reading the site and trying to make up their minds about what information we post here, will be put off by the exchanges with these people.

This is what they want. Don't let them get that result.

Ignore them, stay focues and always post references with comments if possible.

This helps the newcomers and also, takes the wind out of the lies the flamers post.

Also, remember the message I forwarded on to you, people are watching, we are makining an impact and they will try to disrupt us however they can.

Posted by: susan_b at October 7, 2004 5:50 PM

I was going to say "relax, everyone, the U.S. is not Russia and much was learned from the mistakes at Columbine."

But then I thought about what libbysmom said, and realized that she was more on target. If such a thing happens, many innocent Muslims will be ripped to shreds, mosques will be burned, and we'll see Congress pass some sort of bill not seen since the Geary Chinese Exclusion Act of the late 1800s. Hopefully, those who would commit such a crime are able to see the consequences. Of course, there will be those who will blame such a thing on Mossad, the C.I.A., etc.

For those of you hoping for implementation of the Second Amendment in such a crisis, don't hold your breath. Unless all the S.W.A.T. officers are dead or incapacitated, they're still in charge if a U.S. Beslan should happen, and they'll shoot anyone perceived to be interfering. Armed civilians would have made a difference in Beslan, but in the U.S., it's a mixed bag.

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 5:59 PM

tHREE BLAST A THE SINA HILTON HOTEL AND 2 CAMP GROUNDS?

PART OF THE AMERICAN TRIBE
SQUIRREL HUNTER
SPIDER KILLER
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DEFEAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
SHARTON HOTEL IN BAGGDAD HIT BY ROCKET NONE HURT AND TERRORIST IN TRUCK KILLED BY AMERICANS!!!!

Posted by: Catherine at October 7, 2004 6:23 PM

For those of you hoping for implementation of the Second Amendment in such a crisis, don't hold your breath. Unless all the S.W.A.T. officers are dead or incapacitated, they're still in charge if a U.S. Beslan should happen, and they'll shoot anyone perceived to be interfering. Armed civilians would have made a difference in Beslan, but in the U.S., it's a mixed bag.

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 05:59 PM

I'M ON A KKK BRID MOMENT WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

First we have the 2nd Add.!!
Next the town it happens in will be like the L.A. roits and the police stood by and let it happen for how many days?

I like to think the American people will have more restrant?
I'm sure they will but the town it happens in will not??

I don't think they will hit a school but maybe a dance hall they don't like that kind of thing but the islamic terrorist are loseing and may need a big impack to make Americans all look like they do with hate??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory the Defeat of the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat and give them Balls to stand and Fight Amen

PS
God Bless the country's who have Heros!!
pitty the country's who need them??

Posted by: Catherine at October 7, 2004 6:44 PM

I remember reading this over three years ago:

Hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of additional guerrilla forces remain under cover to await further orders to conduct military operations against more American civilian targets, including "soft" targets such as schools, shopping centers, sporting events and entertainment venues.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at October 7, 2004 6:58 PM

I am trying to remember something I had seen on TV during the Afghan war.. There was something about video tapes of training that the terrorists had done, and it was about taking over grade schools.

Does anyone else remember this? or have a link to the information?

If I am correct, than this type of thing has been in the works for a long time.

What exactly will it take to wake up America to the threats we face??

Posted by: ed2010 at October 7, 2004 7:02 PM

Nahariya/Avivim School Bus Attack, 1970:

On May 8, 1970 there was a brutal attack on an Israeli school bus by Palestinian terrorists who crossed the Lebanese border.

Avivim, an agricultural community established in 1963, is just metres from the border with Lebanon. Settled and built from the ground up by Moroccan immigrants, the majority of the residents belonged to one of two families; Peretz or Biton. The local council bus picked up children each morning to take them to two schools.

The terrorists knew the schedule of the bus and were able to ambush it. They fired on the bus, killing the adults instantly. The bus driver continued until he himself was shot. Then the bus crashed, injuring many of the remaining children. The attack caused the death of 9 children (aged between six and nine) and 3 adults, and left 19 others crippled for life.

The terrorists were never apprehended.

Ma'alot (or Maalot), 1974:

The beautiful northern Israel town of Ma'alot is located in the Western Galilee, 20 km east of Nahariya, and less than an hour's drive from Haifa. Ma'alot was founded in the 1950s when hundreds of thousands of immigrants came to Israel from North Africa, refugees from hostile Arab nations where they were no longer safe. The Israeli Government at that time decided to place new immigrants in development towns such as Ma'alot.

On May 15, 1974 (Israel's Independence Day) a group of 11th grade students from Safed (Tsfat) were on a field trip to the Golan, a full day of hikes. That night, the children were housed at a school in Ma’alot where they slept on the floor. During the night, three Arab terrorists dressed as IDF soldiers attacked the school, killing the guard and some of the children. Some of the children escaped by jumping out of a window on the second floor and the rest were held as hostages.

In the morning the terrorists were identified as members of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) who had infiltrated from Lebanon. The DFLP is a Marxist-Leninist and formerly pro-Soviet group that split from the Popular Font for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) in 1969. They presented their demands: release Arab terrorists from Israeli prisons, or they will start to kill the children. The deadline was set at 6:00PM the same day.

The Knesset met in emergency session. Although Israel’s policy forbid negotiation with terrorists, the plight of the children forced an exception. By 3:00PM a decision was reached to negotiate, but the terrorists refused a request for more time.

At 5:45PM a unit of the elite Golani brigade stormed the building. All of the terrorists were killed in the assault, but not before they took the lives of 21 children. There were a total of 26 victims, including several people murdered by the terrorists on their way to the school the night before.

In Beirut, eloquent demonstrations honoring the fallen fedayeen as noble martyrs of the cause were ordered by Nayef Hawatmeh, the DFLP leader.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at October 7, 2004 7:12 PM

Catherine,

Please read my post again. Major cities (granted, a Beslan style attack might not happen in a major city) in the U.S. have well organized S.W.A.T. units with plans which cover all sorts of contingencies. They're here to do their job and put their lives on the line, if need be. Hence my Columbine comment.

Hitting a "dance hall" somehow doesn't have the same impact as hitting a school with hundreds of children.

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 7:13 PM

Do I think this can happen? Yes.

Do I think we would get an overwhelming response? No. Because I think the Mainstream Media will start spewing the "Islam means 'peace'" bullshit. Mayors will get the local imans to give a big speech on how Islam is a 'religion of peace'.

OR they will totally ignore the Islamic aspect (remember - they still don't identify the terrorists in Beslan as being muslim). Hell I dont think they will even call them 'terrorists'.

And if they do they will strongly imply that they are 'right wing extreamists' - anyone but their allies in their quest to destroy america - the muslim terrorists.

Posted by: CrazyFool at October 7, 2004 7:33 PM

If anyone of us was confronted with a hypotethical catastrophic attack such as 9/11 was,we would have probably said the same things as these said right here,right now about a Beslan-like attack in the US:they wouldn`t dare,there would be revenge,there would be muslims deported or interned in concentration camps,etc....no such thing happened after 9/11 became a reality,no such thing would happen if a Beslan-like attack will be carried out here in the US.
The liberal media will again say it was Bush`s fault,it was America`s fault for oppressing the muslims ,etc.
Not only that,but the national guard would probably be dispatched in our cities,to protect the muslim communities against "racist" violence.
I`m not sure what exactly will it take ,what kind of cataclismic islamic attack,in order for us to wake up,name the enemy (ISLAM),and destroy it once and for all.
In the actual political correct environment,it is almost inconceivable for such a strong stand to be ever made.
God bless America,our troups and our president.

Posted by: adela at October 7, 2004 7:47 PM

KAUN THANK YOU!!

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 07:13 PM

I KNOW THAT READ MY POST??
I don't think they will hit a school but maybe a dance hall they don't like that kind of thing but the islamic terrorist are loseing and may need a big impack to make Americans all look like they do with hate??

kafira the swat teams across America have already said the outcome would probley be the same?

That the framers believed it was possible that extraordinary threats to the nation might be so grave as to justify the suspension of personal liberty entirely, is clearly in evidence in the language that they penned for Article I., Section 9.:
“The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”
Now consider the following description of our present circumstance and let us ask ourselves whether we are a nation that has been invaded by a foreign military force and whether invocation of Section 9 would therefore be possible if deemed necessary by the President:
For a decade, guerrilla military forces have crossed the borders of the United States and assumed covert positions deep within the sovereign territory of the nation. At the command of a foreign headquarters, elements of these forces executed coordinated hostile military actions against civilian American targets in New York City and Washington DC. Nearly 3,000 American civilians died. Hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of additional guerrilla forces remain under cover to await further orders to conduct military operations against more American civilian targets, including "soft" targets such as schools, shopping centers, sporting events and entertainment venues.

So was this a violation of their civil rights or were they unfairly deprived of their rights as prisoners of war under the international laws of war? Not according to the United States Supreme Court. In a unanimous Supreme Court decision, the court upheld this procedure, ruling that an enemy “who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property” was an “unlawful combatant” subject to military trial and not “entitled to the status of prisoners of war.” (Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942)). The Supreme Court felt that these men had violated the International Law of War and were therefore deserving of the harsh response of the United States that was meted out to them.

NOW KERRY WOULD ONCE AGAIN DIVIDE AMERICA YES DOES HE HAVE TO BALLS TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO KEEP YOUR KIDS SAFE ???

I SAY NO!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat Amen

PS

Like this too!!

Resolve of the American Nation
Because of the freedom to fearlessly engage in transparent public discourse on issues that affect the very life of the nation, the people of the United States have been able to make very difficult public choices throughout their history. Rising to the challenge of the present threats is, as we have shown by our action in the past, a disciplined and methodical affair. We always begin with a discourse among ourselves such as the present, and we always end with decisive action.
In a popular myth, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, Chief of Imperial Japanese Naval Operations, addresses his command staff on the morning of December 7, 1941, immediately following their attack on Pearl Harbor with the words, "I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." Less than four years later, on August 6, and August 9, 1945, the hapless denizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to behold the face of Shiva.
On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars -- but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war -- but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks -- but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day -- and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack. ...
They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.
These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.
We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. -- President George W. Bush, address to a joint session of Congress and the American people, September 20, 2001.
And so it appears that the naive crafters of the doomed totalitarian Islamic ideology, have again awakened the slumbering giant. He will not rest again until his work is done.
-- Timothy F. McDonough, Ph.D.
Dallas, TX

REMEMBER AMERICA THE JOB IS NOT DONE YET DO YOU TRUST JOHN JOHN TO GET THE JOB DONE??

I DONT!!!

Posted by: Catherine at October 7, 2004 7:53 PM

'Armed civilians would have made a difference in Beslan, but in the U.S., it's a mixed bag.'

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 05:59 PM

Many of the Beslan civilians outside the school were armed with their hunting rifles. I read a report that once the shooting started, maybe a dozen of the Russian Special Forces were killed by over-zealous civilians who mistook them for terrorists or were just firing wildly.

The Russian soldiers/police should have kept the parents etc well back from the hostage scene. Let's hope that lesson is learned if such a horrible event should ever happen again.

Posted by: Benelux at October 7, 2004 7:58 PM

Benelux-

I had heard that Russian civilians did eventually storm the building, but I had not heard that they killed Special Forces members accidentally. We don't always get all the news we need, even here in the U.S. Many thanks for the info.

Posted by: kafira at October 7, 2004 8:30 PM

I heard late this afternoon on a local radio talk show that American soldiers found blueprints or floorplans of six American schools in Baghdad this summer! Schools in small cities and towns, including Gray, Georgia. I live in Georgia and I've never heard of Gray, so it must be very small. There's more to this school warning than we are being told.
Driving home tonight, I was listening to Michael Savage, who gets a bit carried away at times but I like him anyway. He repeated what I heard this afternoon about the schools. Michael Savage and local talk radio are as diverse as it gets. He's in San Diego; I'm on the other side of the country. Savage was ranting about how they're going to murder our children in the heartland, and you know, he might be right. They're due for a major change in tactics.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Department of Homeland Security would tell us what they know?

Posted by: Susanp at October 7, 2004 10:17 PM

Ed2010:

Precisely right...here's one such article from World Net Daily, October 2002.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29216

Posted by: jawa at October 7, 2004 10:42 PM

Attacks on US schools are probably planned to influence the election, say 72 hours before polls open. The attacks will follow the Beslan model, with large numbers of kamikaze terrorists attacking each school. The aim, of course, is to influence the election and I think they will. They will probably use Iraqi or Palestinian muslims to divert attention. Who do I think "they" are? Al-qaida backed by Iran and Syria.
My two cents, worth, anyway.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at October 7, 2004 11:01 PM

Everyone, if you get the chance, Google.......

terrorist plans to attack american schools,

Then read down through everything that comes up.

I'm sitting here laughing and banging my head on my desk at the same time.

It's no wonder they may target our schools, every plan we have to defend them is available on the net!!!

The Dept. of Homeland Security, the Senate Sub-Committee on our schools and terrorism, not to mention individual school districts have their plans on here.

I got as far as page no. 3 and had to stop. It was making me sick.

Posted by: susan_b at October 7, 2004 11:23 PM

If we're up against an enemy willing to hit a school in a deliberate anti-civilian terrorist attack, the US government should make it abundantly clear tha Falluja or South Waziristan is our hostage--even to the point of nuking the places.

Posted by: Kepha1 at October 8, 2004 1:59 AM

School Bus
The U.S. Education Department advised school leaders nationwide to watch for people spying on their buildings or school buses to help detect any possibility of terrorism.
PhotoDisc

School Warning
School Plans, Security Information Gathered by Suspected Iraq Insurgent Focus Concern on Schools in Six States
By Brian Ross
ABCNEWS.com

Oct. 7, 2004— Schools in six states in particular are being watched closely based on information uncovered by the U.S. military in Baghdad this summer, law enforcement and education officials told ABC News.
A man described as an Iraqi insurgent involved in anti-coalition activities had downloaded school floor plans and safety and security information about elementary and high schools in the six states, according to officials.

School officials in Fort Myers, Fla.; Salem, Ore.; Gray, Ga.; Birch Run, Mich.; two towns in New Jersey; and two towns in California have been told to increase security in light of the discovery.

Officials in the New Jersey towns, Franklinville and Rumson, were notified by counterterrorism officials last month that their schools had been possibly singled out.

"Once we were notified, we immediately put a plan into effect," said Dwight Pfennig, deputy commissioner of education for the state of New Jersey.

And William Matthews, superintendent of schools in Jones County, Ga., sent a letter to parents, faculty and staff last week notifying them that security was being increased during the election season.

"In an effort to be proactive and ensure the safety of all, we are reviewing our school safety plans," Matthews wrote in the letter. "You may notice an increase in law enforcement visibility as well as other measures designed to provide a safe and pleasant environment."

Matthews said in the letter that the information was not considered a threat.

School officials in Salem, Ore., told ABC News affiliate KATU that local law enforcement has no knowledge of a specific threat to any schools there. "The safety of students and staff is a priority to us, and we will continue to make every attempt to keep them secure," Salem Superintendent Kay Baker told KATU.

On Wednesday, the federal government warned schools nationwide to look out for suspicious activity that might signal terrorist activity, and told school officials to be on the lookout for anyone spying on their buildings or buses, expressing interest in obtaining site plans, and other types of suspicious activity.

It followed an analysis by the FBI and the Homeland Security Department of the school siege in Beslan, Russia, last month, in which nearly 340 people, many of them children, were killed.

Law enforcement officials said they had no easy explanation why an insurgent in Baghdad would be gathering such specific information about American schools, some of them in small towns.

And though the information was recovered in July, it was not given urgency until the attack in Beslan.

Ultimately, officials say they are hoping to increase security in schools and heighten awareness without causing parents nationwide to panic.

ABC News' Richard Esposito contributed to this report.

Posted by: susan_b at October 8, 2004 3:59 AM

Symposium: Chechnya: Russia's Palestine?
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 8, 2004

The recent tragedy and horror in Beslan has clearly placed Islamist terrorism on the Russian map. Is the crisis in Chechnya no longer local, but now connected to the world-wide War on Terror? What is the main significance of Beslan? How can the Chechen terrorists best be crushed? Or will the violence multiply if Russia refuses to make concessions? Is Putin to blame for Chechen terror? Is Russia now our ally in the War on Terror? To discuss these issues with us today, Frontpage Symposium has assembled a distinguished panel of experts:

Ariel Cohen, Ph.D., is Research Fellow at the Heritage Foundation and author of Russian Imperialism: Development and Crisis (Praeger/Greenwood 1998). He had tea with Putin on September 6 along with a group of foreign policy experts;

David Satter, a senior fellow of the Hudson Institute and a visiting scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Nitze School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). He is the author of Darkness at Dawn: The Rise of the Russian Criminal State.

and

John Loftus, a former Justice Department prosecutor with code word clearances whose 1982 expose of Nazis working for western intelligence won the Emmy Award for Mike Wallace. He is the author of several books on the Middle East and the director of INTELCON.US, the upcoming National Intelligence Conference and Exposition. At 10:30 every weeknight, the Loftus Report is a featured segment of ABC national radio, and Fox Television's "Inside Scoop with John Loftus" airs at 11 am Sundays. His website is John-Loftus.com.

FP: Ariel Cohen, David Satter and John Loftus welcome to Frontpage Symposium. It is a pleasure to have you here.

Mr. Satter, let’s begin with a general question. What do you make of the recent tragedy in Beslan? What is its main significance?

Satter: I think the main significance of the Beslan tragedy is that it demonstrates the determination of the Russian authorities to crush all resistance in Chechnya regardless of the consequences. It's worth pointing out that although we now know that there were more than 1300 hostages and that the Chechen terrorists had made specific, concrete demands, the Russians stated at first that there were 354 hostages and that there were no demands. This suggests that the Russians had decided not to make a serious effort to save the lives of the hostages, including the children, and in the interests of destroying the terrorists were ready to lie to their own people.

The determination of the Russians to crush any and all Chechen resistance has also been demonstrated by the behavior of Russian officials in the wake of the tragedy. The Russians have offered a huge cash reward for the killing of both Shamil Basaev, who organized the Beslan massacre, and Aslan Maskhadov, who condemned it and tried to prevent it. It was Maskhadov who offered himself as a negotiator in exchange for a guarantee of his safety and whose offer was ignored. Lumping the two together indicates (more than the Russians would wish) the regime's true intentions. Maskhadov was and remains the hope for a negotiated settlement of the Chechen conflict. He is the only legitimately elected Chechen leader and he has repeatedly sought negotiations. The ideas that he and his colleagues have put forward for Chechnya's future are realistic and moderate. In fact, they amount to little beyond a demand for a form of protected autonomy for Chechnya. The call to kill him therefore reflects a desire to use the Beslan tragedy to avoid any serious effort to solve the Chechen problem and to eliminate a possible avenue for solving the problem.

The difficulty for Russia is that Chechen resistance probably cannot be completely crushed. It can only be driven to take increasingly murderous forms. This radicalization and steady barbarization of the Chechens has been evident throughout the history of the two Chechen wars. During the first war, the Chechens welcomed and helped foreign correspondents, spared Russian prisoners and even aided the mothers of Russian soldiers who came to Chechnya looking for their sons. It is impossible to expect anything like that kind of behavior today even from the moderates let alone the radicals who have grown up with ten years of war. Even the radicals, however, have shown an evolution toward increasingly barbaric behavior. In the Dubrovka theater siege in 2002, they freed children under the age of 12 and used bombs that were duds and could not detonate. This time, they targeted children. What they'll do next time is anyone's guess.

By their nature, the Chechens are not good recruits for international Islamic terrorism. They have a specific territorial dispute, they do not reject Western civilization and they have chivalrous traditions. If Russia persists in its present policies, however, they could become a very deadly component part of international terrorism.

Cohen: The significance is that the peoples of Russia are subjected to unspeakable atrocities, very much like 9/11 and other jihadi activities that are going on around the world, including in Israel, Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia and elsewhere.

Terrorism, whichever its justifications and historic roots, has to be made outside the pale by the international community, just like human sacrifice, cannibalism, piracy and slavery. Otherwise, it will hit us again, and it will hit us hard. Jihadis in Iraq have "specific" demands. They want the US out, and they want Prime Minister Iyad Allawi dead. Al Qaeda has specific demands: they want the US out of the Middle East; they want U.S. to stop "polluting" the Muslim world with our "infidel" culture.

Unfortunately, those who try to "understand" or "explain" the atrocities committed by radical Chechens -- or Palestinians -- intentionally confuse or mislead, as to who are the perpetrators and who are the victims.

Those who are well aware of, but intentionally ignore, the jihadi dimesion of the radical Chechen wing are misleading the readers and the American public as to the true nature of this tragic conflict.

No question, the Russian government has made mistakes in Chechnya since 1994, and I will elaborate on these later. No questions peacful Chechens were abused by the Russian Army, but on September 1, the first day of school, it was a multi-ethnic group of over thirty radical Islamist terrorists, including two female suicide bombers and some Chechens, who took more than 1,000 children, teachers, and parents hostage in the North Ossetian town of Beslan in Russia.

The terrorists deployed explosives around the school, hanging them from basketball hoops in the gym, where most of children were kept. This was the fifth massive hostage-taking event in Russia since 1995, and it would end in tragedy. Shamil Basaev, leader of the radical terrorist Islamist wing of the Chechen separatist movement has taken responsibility for the massacre.

The terrorists subjected the children and other hostages to unspeakable abuses, denying them water and food, killing some at random, and forcing many children to drink urine. Europe has not seen such cruelty since the Nazi atrocities of World War Two.

After two days, the terrorists triggered an explosion in the gym, and many children ran out. The terrorists opened fire, and many hostages were shot in the back and killed. Russian special forces and the armed local population attempted a rescue, but the death and destruction brought about that day spoke clearly to a a security failure of gigantic proportions.

Heart wrenching scenes of a bloodbath rescue; of small bodies buried in tiny coffins; of parents breaking down in grief at their children’s graves, shocked the world. Many Russians watched the crisis on television, tears pouring down their cheeks. They repeated after their leaders, "It’s a war. A war has been unleashed upon Russia."

Loftus: But who is behind the war? There is much speculation from Israel that Chechen terrorists are being trained by al Qaeda in Iran. The Russian intelligence services are certain that that the Taliban previously sold heavy weapons through the Saudis to help the Chechens. A number of the baby-killers of Beslyan were Arabs, not Chechens, and at least one is believed to be a Saudi.

Russia is and always has been a principal target of Islamic extremist groups. While Russia's behavior in Chechnya has often been abhorrent, the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the Chechen people want a truce, a cease fire, any kind of peace under any kind of terms, even if it means the end of their dreams of independence.

The Islamic extremists are horrified by this pacifistic trend. They intentionally chose baby killing to inspire a brute force reaction from Russia, hoping that more Russian brutality would drive more Chechens back into the arms of the nationalist extremists. Recruitment by incitement of genocide. The Russians know this and are holding back, at least until their young protégé turns 30 and can take over his late father's job as the ruler of what passes for a Chechen democratic government.

It is my view (and I think that of the majority of the intelligence community) that the baby killers never had any intention of negotiation. Indeed, when some of the insurgents first learned the target was a school, they attempted to protest and were executed. Two of the "black widows" bomb belts were exploded by remote control as an encouragement to the others. It is clear from the manner in which the hostages were treated that there never was any intention of letting any of the children out alive.

Look at the larger picture. The western oil companies want to build a pipeline through the Pankisis gorge, one of the most violent and terrorist-laden places on the planet. What is up with that? My take: the Chechen terrorists have been offered a share of profits to protect the pipeline, same with the Chechen democrats. Everyone in Chechnya wants a slice of the pie, and is willing to fight to the last Russian baby to get it.

Satter: In evaluating the Russian response to the Beslan hostage taking, there are two points that need to be kept in mind.

First, any country whose citizens have been taken hostage has an obligation to try to protect their lives. In the case of Beslan, where there were at least 1200 hostages, a large percentage of them children, this obligation was overwhelming. Nonetheless, the Russians refused negotiations - even to buy time - and thereby made the massacre that followed inevitable.

Second, the roots of the Chechen conflict lie in the Russian effort to crush the national aspirations of the Chechens unconditionally. As a result, the Russian refusal to negotiate in Beslan, although reflecting a desire not to reward terror, was not rooted in political or moral principle at the level of fundamental demands.

Saving the lives of the Beslan children was not a priority for the Russian government any more than saving the lives of the hostages in the Dubrovka Theater siege was a priority two years ago. This disregard for the lives of one's own people is barbaric and is not made less so by the unspeakable behavior of the hostage takers.

Cohen: If you negotiate with terrorists and answer their demands, there will be more terror and more demands. The terrorists in Beslan wanted all Russian troops out of Chechnya - that was one of their demands. They also wanted prisoners from the previous raid to the neighborign Ingushetia out of jail.

Think about it. If a school was taken over in Iraq -- or in neighobring Kuwait or Jordan, and the demand was to pull US troops from Iraq, what do you think our reaction would be? Would we just surrender to terrorist demands? What they want is to break our spirit, force us to do what they want. And you get what you reward. Surrender to terrorist demands will escalate terrorist attacks and make attacks on schools, like the PLO attack against a school in Maalot, Israel, in 1974, a legitimate tactic. However, negotiations to gain time, wear the terrorists out, and prepare an operation are legit. The Russians tried to do just that. They failed, as the terrorists started to dictate operational tempo by blowing up explosives in school. Hostages ran. Terrorists shot. At which point, the poorly trained Russian forces moved in, and armed locals were shooting at everyone. Bloody mess!

As for the broader picture, ethnic and religious unrest is endemic to the territory of the Russian empire and the Soviet Union, as prolonged guerrilla warfare during 18th-20th centuries in the Caucasus, Central Asia, Western Ukraine, and Baltic states demonstrate. In particular, ethnically based warfare and insurgency are hardly new to the Caucasus – North or South – for the last two centuries.

President Putin has admitted that the first Chechen war, unleashed by the Yeltsin Administration in the fall of 1994, in which 80,000-100,000 people were killed and over 100,000 became internally displaced, was an error. After the defeat of the Russian army in Chechnya, Moscow granted the rebel region quasi-independence in 1996.

Sadly, "independent" Chechnya has turned into a disaster for its own people. Armed gangs and clans have the run of the house. Radical Sunni (Wahhabi/Salafi) clerics imported by Saudi Arabia have established Islamic religious courts (Sharia) in the society, which previously had practiced a rather lax version of Sufi Islam. Public hangings have become commonplace. Thousands have been kidnapped for ransom. Slave markets have appeared throughout this European borderland. Oil from pipelines is looted, pipelines sabotaged, transit trains from Russia strafed, passengers robbed, drugs trafficked, and arms smuggling and other contraband are rife.

The Wahhabi presence, including ties with Al Qaeda terrorists, has increased, strengthening the leadership of radical Islamists such as Shamil Basaev. Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, bin Laden’s second in command, spent six months in Chechnya setting up training camps and preparing "jihad" – holy war. The Russian security services arrested Al Zawahiri, but having no idea of who he was, eventually let him go.

The Second War. The second Chechen war was started in 1999 with the invasion of the neighboring republic of Daghestan by a radical Chechen faction commanded by Shamil Basaev. Explosions in apartment buildings in Moscow and Volgodonsk, in which over 300 people died, greatly contributed to escalation tensions. Basaev did not and does not hide his geopolitical ambitions of establishing an Islamist religious-military dictatorship, a Califate, from the Black Sea to the Caspian. Such an entity, with ties to Al Qaeda and extremist circles in the Middle East, would radically change the geopolitics of Russia and Europe.

To portray the conflict as that of the Chechen "good guys" and the Russian "bad guys" is unbelievable simplistic and misleading. The Russians have obviously made mistakes - in both wars. They were unjustifiably heavy handed. Their military and security forces are unreformed, and the leadership hasn't recognized that. Or if it did, it has no clue how to change things. Retired colonels and generals from the General Staff propose to scrap the whole system and start anew. And the Chechen fanatical adherence to demands for independence, and tolerance of, and willing participation in, Wahhabization, have cause the population of Chechnya to decline by 1/3 since the beginning of the war in 1994, with over 100,000 people killed and 200,000 emigrating to Russia and abroad. Most Chechens living in Moscow and elsewhere would tell you that this is an unmitigated disaster which could have been avoided if both sides showed some patience, realism, and common sense.

Loftus: I think Cohen is right. The Russians intended to negotiate, and acceded in Beslan to the hostage takers demand that the same paediatrician who was a trusted mediator in Moscow be brought to them. As I understand it, the negotiations were progressing successfully. The terrorists had agreed to allow some of the wounded hostages to be evacuated. At the same time as the vans arrived to carry some of the wounded kids out, a dispute arose among the terrorists themselves. Apparently, several were Chechen mercenaries who were appalled at the idea of child murder and rebelled.

According to the sole terrorist survivor, the "colonel" detonated several bombs prematurely as an internal show of force. This had the unintended consequence of blowing out some of the glass windows in the gym. The kids panicked and ran, prompting the terrorist sharpshooters on the roof to open up on the fleeing kids. The Spetznatz troops were caught off guard and charged, thus escalating the conflict.

Unless the Russians have completely fabricated this chain of events (unlikely given the number of witnesses), there was an ongoing peaceful negotiation in progress, all the Russian assault troops had been ordered to stand down, and the truce was only shattered by the terrorists quarrelling among themselves. If these are the facts, Satter is quite wrong to blame the Russian government, and Cohen is wrong to accuse them of a lack of patience. It is unreasonable to expect 19 year old Russian soldiers to stand by while little children are being shot down in front of their eyes.

The survivors themselves confirm that the terrorists stated their intent to kill them all. Events suggest that they meant what they said. Under these circumstances, negotiation might have a bought a little more time, but the body count would have remained the same.

A broken watch is right twice a day, and this time the Russians are right on Chechnya. Saudi Arabia funds the terrorists, and will continue to do so. Their Wahhabist cult (condemned as a heresy more than sixty times by mainstream Islam) is the ideological well spring for the justification of baby killing.

There are few options and no good solutions. Stalin once deported an entire ethnic group from the Caucasus region to Siberia. Now mass deportation of civilians is considered a crime against humanity. The traditional route, of setting one warlord against another, will only perpetuate the civil war and perhaps cause it to spill over the borders. Containment along the borders would require a massive number of troops, more than the Russians can afford.

The less drastic solution is to cut off the flow of money and arms to the terrorists. As Putin said to President Bush after 9/11, "if you want to wage a serious war on terrorism, we will join you, but that means taking down the source of terrorist funding, the Saudis." Bush blanched. One thing that the Americans and the Chechen terrorists have in common is a desire to ensure the continued flow of Saudi oil.

To the disgust of the Russians, it is clear the US and EU have concluded that they would rather have more oil for their SUV's, even at the price of the babies of Beslan. The most dangerous evil in the world is not communism, fascism or terrorism, it is indifference. The West continues to shrug while someone else's children are murdered. Soon, I fear, it will be our turn unless we wean ourselves off our addiction to oil. In war, some sacrifices have to be made. We can sacrifice our SUV's and live quite normally. Or do we continue to sacrifice children?

Russian oppression in Chechnya was not the cause of Islamic extremism, it was merely the place of its early appearance. It is a tragedy that the Saudis chose this sad and embattled region for their experiment in terror. Of course, Saudi intermeddling alone cannot explain what happened in Beslan. In the long run, the root cause of all insurrection is injustice, the cure for which is justice. The war on terrorism must be fought on all fronts, including civic reform. Cutting off funding to terrorists is only the first step in the long march toward Democracy and Freedom.

Let us take that step.

*

To finish reading this symposium, click here.

Posted by: susan_b at October 8, 2004 4:32 AM

Symposium: Chechnya: Russia's Palestine? (Continued)
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | October 8, 2004

FP: Sorry, let me interrupt here for a moment. The “root cause of all insurrection is injustice”???

Mr. Loftus, I can’t let that one slip by.

The ideology of militant Islam is a perfect delegitimization of this point. Read the writing of Sayyid Qutb, the Muslim Brotherhood’s great theorist and the father of modern Islamic fundamentalism. In his work “Milestones,” which serves as Islamism’s Mein Kampf, he discusses the urgent need for Islamic insurrection, jihad, war etc.

And guess what the cause is of this need for insurrection? It’s “injustice” alright. And guess what that “injustice” is in his eyes? It’s the injustice of what is happening here right now in this symposium: freedom, free speech and every possible thing you can imagine is connected to it.

For Qutb and for all militant Muslims, injustice is to have to live sharing this earth with people like us -- kuffar (one of the Islamic terms used for unbelievers) and to be threatened by our jahiliyyah (basically everything and anything connected to earthly cheer, joy, sensual or physical pleasure, and everything and anything unconnected to the yearning for death and suicide – Islamism’s top objective).

Qutb perfectly crystallized the urgency of militant Islam’s insurrection against the free world: the necessity to extinguish human freedom in its every form. In his trip to America from 1948-1950, Qutb grew in his hatred of America because of his revulsion of the reality that women were actually making many of their own decisions, that they were not covered up, that humans were making choices about love for their own personal needs, that individuals pursued their own desires and interests, that humans were actually dancing and having fun (Qutb’s greatest outrage), and that, overall, people were free and enjoying entertainment and a good material life.

For Islamists, it is a great injustice to have to live next to such jahiliyyah and it must be wiped out, for it also threatens the Muslim world with its satanic temptation.

Mr. Loftus, you cannot offer the Sayyid Qutbs and Osma Bin Ladens of this world any kind of “justice” to quench their insurrection against the free world. The only kind of “justice” you can offer to do that is for every free person to submit to the despotic totality that Islamism, like its cousins communism and fascism, demands. Every form of free will must be abandoned. Cherishing all the joys of this earth and treasuring our lives here must be discarded, all for the sake of submitting to totality and then idolizing mass murder and suicide.

To try to fully “understand” why the Chechen terrorists did what they did is to suggest that evil is rational and can be eliminated if appeased. It ignores the reality that the 20th century taught us so tragically and violently: that irrational mass movements exist that yearn for mass murder and suicide for absolutely no logical or explainable reason at all. And all we can really do to eliminate them, as we did with Hitler and eventually the Soviet regime, is to fight them and destroy them.

In any case, we are running out of time.

Each panelist has one comment left.

Mr. Satter, feel free to comment on anything that has been said and also please include a note on a potential solution to Russia’s Palestine, if there is one.

Satter: I'm puzzled by Ariel Cohen's version of events in Beslan. He states that the Russians engaged in negotiations to gain time and wear the terrorists out. But, in fact, there were no negotiations. The three persons requested by the terrorists as negotiators, the presidents of North Ossetia and Ingushetiya and pediatrician Leonid Roshal never made it to the terrorists. This was believed to be the result of an order from Moscow. The only politician who entered the besieged school was Ruslan Aushev, the former president of Ingushetiya and a strong critic of the war in Chechnya, who acted on his own. He left with a videocassette for Putin and 26 hostages.

From the testimony of the hostages freed during the subsequent storm of the building, it is also obvious that the Russian authorities had no intention of entering into negotiations. According to the hostages, the terrorists could not call through to a single high ranking official in North Ossetia. The officials simply refused to come to the phone, although the children of several of them were in the besieged school.

At the same time, an offer by Chechen leader Aslan Maskhadov to the Russian authorities to negotiate with the hostage takers in return for a guarantee of safe conduct was ignored.

John Loftus also seems to think that the Russian authorities were interested in negotiations, that negotiations took place and that they were "progressing successfully." Unfortunately, the only evidence supporting this claim appears to be Rochal's conversations by telephone with the terrorists' "press secretary."

The confusion over whether the Russians did or did not negotiate points to an intuitive realization that only negotiations could have saved the children of School number 1. As distasteful as it may be to negotiate with hostage takers, in many cases this is the only way to avoid a massacre. We therefore do Russia no favor by uncritically applauding the Putin regime's readiness to put the emphasis in hostage taking situations entirely on the destruction of terrorists. This is all the more true when the cause being defended is as dubious as the Russian war in Chechnya.

It has been pointed out many times that there is a way out of the Chechen situation. Chechen demands are, in fact, very moderate. The peace plans that exist call only for wide ranging autonomy within the Russian Federation. What is needed is for the regime to realize that it cannot dictate to the Chechens but needs to negotiate. In other words, the regime must adopt the same flexibility in seeking a political settlement that it should have shown in dealing with the terrorists in Beslan. The alternative is unending bloodshed inside Russia and, possibly, a new and dangerous role for Chechens in the plans of international terrorism.

Cohen: First, Chechnya is not Russia's Palestine. Israel has a historic and religious claim to the land of Israel which Russia lacks in Chechnya. The Jews, if you wish, are the Chechens of that land - the original dwellers, and the Palestinians are the later invaders. The Jews also had an uniterrupted presence in the land of Israel, a majority in Jerusalem, and the right to the land due to new settlement, which started in 1882. Finally, the creation of the state of Israel was voted on by the majority of the UN General Assembly in 1948, whereas no such international recognition was allowed to Chechnya one way or the other (neither to Russia's claim, nor to the Chechen indepdendence). So let's not confuse the two.

Second, the Russians need to get their counter-terrorism tradecraft straight. It was a pitiful sight to watch how they bungled the crisis. The systemic failures of policy and security apparatus that failed to stop the atrocities in Beslan were immediately obvious for Russian and Western observers. The Russian intelligence networks, run by the military, internal security forces (FSB), and the Interior Ministry police in the North Caucasus had failed to identify preparations for the attack or provide timely intelligence to intercept the hostage takers en route, before they entered the school. Similarly, a few days prior to Beslan, two female suicide bombers destroyed two Russian airliners and blew up a Moscow metro station and a bus stop.

The failure of the rescue operation was also obvious. The top military commander indicated that "there was no planning to rescue hostages" and disclosed that 48 hours after the hostage taking took place the main special forces were training 30 kilometers away. Even if negotiations were underway, rescue force had to be on location and ready to attack at any moment, especially in the dark, using night goggles, which the terrorists apparently did not have. The rescuers had only two or three armored personnel carriers to use as shields in approaching the building. As a result the special forces fighters were pinned down by the heavy terrorist fire.

The hostage takers also were permitted to dictate the operational tempo. They were able to impose the rescue timing by setting off the explosives and by putting up a stiff resistance that lasted 10 hours, from 1PM to 11PM, when most of them were finally killed. Sporadic fire continued until 4AM the next day. As the building was rigged with explosives, the only chance to save the children if negotiations failed, would have been to overwhelm the terrorists in a surprise, massive, precision attack, taking out most of the perpetrators in the first 5 to 10 minutes. Such an operation could have used storming force technological advantages, such as night vision goggles, stun grenades, or incapacitating gas. Nothing of the kind happened.Roaming Locals. Appallingly, the security forces failed to remove hundreds of armed locals from the hostage-taking scene, interfering with the rescue attempt and catching both the hostages and rescuers in their crossfire. No civilian-free zone was established around the schoolhouse, and this omission ended up allowing the terrorists to shoot civilians outside the building.

The security forces also failed to enforce a secure perimeter. Escaping terrorists broke out of the building and engaged in firefights until the next morning. The Russian anti-terrorist forces did not wear modern Kevlar helmets or, in some cases, bulletproof vests. While the elite Alfa and Vityaz units lost 10 men – the largest losses in their post-Soviet history – some of the rescuers were the local Northern Ossetian police crowd control and SWAT teams called OMON, hardly trained or equipped for a demanding mission of this type.

This was Russia’s fifth massive hostage taking, with over 1,000 hostages captured, and yet the Russian security forces demonstrated that they had learned little from the debacle of Budennovsk, Pervomaysk and Kizlyar in the 1990s, or from Dubrovka/Nord Ost.

Finally, the repeated statements in this debate that terrorists' demands were limited, or that the Russians refused to negotiate are factually wrong and politically dangerous. As both panelists indicated, Dr. Leonid Roshal, the children's surgeon from Moscow, had successful negotiations and some children in Beslan were indeed released. Ruslan Aushev, the former President of Ingushetia also negotiated.

THE TERRORIST LEADERS REFUSED FACE-TO-FACE MEETINGS WITH THEM AS THEY WERE AFRAID THAT THEIR LOCATION IN THE BUILDING WOULD BE DISCLOED TO THE RUSSIAN TROOPS BY NEGOTIATORS. MOREOVER, THE TERRORISTS - NOT THE RUSSIANS - REFUSED TO ALLOW PRESIDENT OF INGUSHETIA MURAT ZIAZIKOV, AN FSB GENERAL, ALEXANDER DZASOKHOV, PRESIDENT OF NORTH OSSETIA, TO COME IN CONTACT WITH THEM. THEY ALSO BROKE ALL THE WINDOWS TO PREVENT A GAS ATTACK, LIKE IN DUBROVKA THEATER IN 2002.

Finally, some seem to confuse a "conventional" hostage taker with Islamist terrorists, of whom they prefer to know little. You can negotiate with a bank robber in order to release a hostage. You can use psychologists, you can use tricks. But ultimately you want to catch the perpetrator and put him to justice. If there is a chance that terrorists surrender, you can drag the negotiations, or promise them a release, but later intercept and neutralize them. Russians tried to do that in Budennovsk and Pervomaysk in the 1990s, where the same Shamil Basaev group has taken hundreds of hostages. They failed to catch him. The result - Basaev was back with vengeance.

He is a mass murderer, infused with ideas of jihad, not a freedom fighter. Trying to depict him as one is like saying that the Nazis were German patriots who made the trains run on time. Untrue and misleading.

Negotiations with terrorists will breed more terrorism and blackmail, possibly with weapons of mass destruction. By the way, Neville Chamberlain and the French Prime Minister Daladier have "negotiated" with Hitler in 1938, and his "limited" demands on Czechoslovakia. You all know what happened next.

Let's not try to justify and explain the righteousness of cause of the Iraqi jihadi terrorists, of Hamas, Hizbollah, the Chechen Wahhabi extremists, of Islamic Jihad, Jamat Islamiya and Al Qaeda. These are the forces of evil which threaten our life, culture, religion, the wellbeing of the whole world.

Blood of thousands of their innocent victims, like Danile Perl, like the vicitims of 9/11, like the children of Beslan, cannot allow us to do so.

FP: Final word goes to you Mr. Loftus.

Loftus: It is ludicrous to shift the blame for Beslan to the victims. The Russian soldiers had been briefed that every effort to negotiate would be made, which would probably last for several days. The soldiers thought they had plenty of time to plan a rescue operation and erect a cordon. Many of the troops had not even put on their identifying armbands, which resulted in their being mistaken for terrorists. Many Russian troops were shot in the back by the heavily armed parents of Beslan who took part in a most chaotic and undisciplined effort to save as many of the children as they could.

It was the killers themselves who had no intention whatsoever of negotiating, they merely wanted publicity. As for Maskharov, who murdered his political predecessor, I understand the Russian troops now have him surrounded in Chechnya. The idea of him being given safe passage is to "negotiate" is just absurd. It was one more demand that the killers knew would never be met. To paraphrase the President, sometimes therapy just does not work. You just have to kill them.

The sad thing is that most Muslims in Chechnya despise the Islamic extremists. If they know of Qutb at all, it is that he is a heretic propagandist for the Muslim Brotherhood. The people of Chechnya know that the massacre in Beslan was a brutal tactic to try and goad the Russians into some brutal vengeance strike that would push the Chechens into the arms of the extremists.

The Islamic movement needs terror to incite more counter-terror to help their waning recruitment drive. It is, I submit, a sure sign of desperation by a movement that has lost the trust of the people. The fact that the Russians did not launch a massive bombardment of Chechen villages in retaliation is, I submit, a sign of the growing Russian maturation in counter insurgency. Decapitation, not devastation, is the route to victory.

The bottom line form the chaos in Beslan is that at least some kids survived. If the terrorists were able to fulfill their plans, none would have. The spetznatz units should have been primed to go from the first second. The Al Qaeda kidnapping manual makes it clear that this form of mass homicide attack is the wave of the future.

But in the ashes of Beslan, I see traces from the dustbin of history. The Muslim Brotherhood, founded in the 1920's, was the godfather of all the Islamic terrorist movements. The MB was a key instrument of Nazi intelligence throughout WWII.
The British hid the Nazi Arabs in Egypt when the war was over, and sent them to kill Jews in 1948.

When the Egyptian government booted the MB out in 1952, our CIA took them in and evacuated them to Saudi Arabia. There, the Arab Nazis were given jobs in the religious schools, and educated a new generation of Islamofascists like Osama Bin Laden. The CIA asked the Saudis to send the Nazis of the Brotherhood into Afghanistan in the 1980's to defeat the Russians. In 1989, the CIA declared victory, shredded all their files for the Muslim Brotherhood, and went home.

The Saudis did not want the Arab nazis back (who now called themselves Al Qaeda, but they are still dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood). So the Saudis paid off the new generation of Arab Nazis and sent them to Chechnya to keep on killing Russians. Think I am kidding? Google search "Banna" and "Nazi" and you will see what I mean. Instead of flagellating the Russian incompetents for Beslan, we might take a look at ourselves. Perhaps had we finished the job of denazifying the Arabs as we did the Germans, history might have taken a very different course.

FP: Thank you. I wish we had more time. These issues clearly need another symposium for discussion. For now, thank you kindly John Loftus, David Satter and Ariel Cohen. It was a pleasure and a privilege to have you all here. We hope to see you again soon.

*

Previous Symposiums:

Palestinians on Palestine: Walid Shoebat, Kamal Nawash and Ray Hanania.

Why the Mullahs Murdered Atefeh Rajabi: Donna Hughes, Nancy Kobrin and Banfsheh Zand-Bonazzi.

Islam's Killing Fields: Thomas Haidon, Jon Lewis and Walid Phares.

Atomic Ayatollahs: Jed Babbin, Jon Loftus and Reza Bayegan.

Feminist Anti-Semitism: Phyllis Chesler, Elinor Burkett and Tricia Roth.

The Islamic Reformation: Kamal Nawash, Walid Shoebat and Khaleel Mohammed.

The War on Terror: How Are We Doing? Robert Leiken, Daniel Pipes and Michael Ledeen.

KGB Resurrection: Mihai Pacepa, James Woolsey and Vladimir Bukovsky.

The Koran and Anti-Semitism: Bat Ye'or, Khaleel Mohammed and Robert Spencer.

A Tale of Two Wars: David Kaiser, Stephen J. Morris and Michael Rubin.

The Muslim Convert: Thomas Haidon, Nonie Darwish and Walid Shoebat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamie Glazov is Frontpage Magazine's managing editor. He holds a Ph.D. in History with a specialty in Soviet Studies. He edited and wrote the introduction to David Horowitz’s new book Left Illusions. He is also the co-editor (with David Horowitz) of the new book The Hate America Left and the author of Canadian Policy Toward Khrushchev’s Soviet Union (McGill-Queens University Press, 2002) and 15 Tips on How to be a Good Leftist. To see his previous symposiums, interviews and articles Click Here. Email him at jglazov@rogers.com.

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Posted by: susan_b at October 8, 2004 4:42 AM

Sorry about all that stuff at the end, thought I had cut all that out.

Posted by: susan_b at October 8, 2004 4:50 AM

(I'll willingly go to prison for what I do to Islamic followers if our children are attacked by these chicken shit Muslim degenerates.

My sentence will be worth it, because I'll send many to Allah. The Muslim population in America will be greatly reduced if an an attack like this ever happens.

Feel free to mark these words, Muslim bootlicker civil rights groups, and all Muslims trolling here. Islam is good for nothing, and damn our Government all these years for allowing them in.)

This story is just another reason why Muslims in America should be booted the hell out. Bastards.

Posted by: DCWatson at October 8, 2004 8:20 AM

It seems to me that there has got to be a way to protect our country (I'm an American living in Canada, getting the perspective from both sides is interesting) without turning it into a vast civil- rights-free zone. One commenter stated:

"This story is just another reason why Muslims in America should be booted the hell out. Bastards."

That kind of statement scares me every bit as much as Omar Bakri Mohammed, the 'cleric' who has called for the targeting of British schoolchildren, quite honestly. It seems hypocritical to call for the protection of the American way of life when the means will by definition make us quite a different America.

Does anyone else here notice the two main schools of thought re Islam and what conclusions must be drawn? There are a lot of enormously intelligent people here who analyze what Mr. Spencer writes, who discuss that and come to the conclusion that fundamentalist Islam is most likely one of the greatest threats to world peace today. And then there are those who are driven solely by hatred of anything different. We seem to be coming to the same conclusion - that we are currently living in a state of emergency- but the way we arrive at this conclusion is different, and I for one feel that difference to be significant.

Posted by: libbysmom at October 8, 2004 9:41 AM

My child just started going to school this year.

And as it turns out, it is in one of the school systems mentioned.

And as it happens, there have been a number of mosques going up in surrounding towns over the past 2 years.

As you may have guessed, I am not getting a good feeling about all this.

Posted by: ed2010 at October 8, 2004 9:43 AM

American Beslan?

Did you say American Beslan? or did you say the elimination of the followers of the Beast or that other clown allah?

If there IS an "American Beslan" surely, there will be NO MORE of this nonsense of tolerating these Savages these worshippers of Satan in the civilized World?

Clearly these Barbarians are living on borrowed time and the next foot they place in the WRONG spot will be their LAST.
I see a "glazed Car Park" as been the only future of the "Middle East"
When are these inbred mutants going to get the message that Judeo/Christian tolerance does not last forever, that the Judeo/Christian creed does not extend to the facilitation of the elimination of the followers of the Creator?

In short if there IS an "American Beslan" the Government of the United States will be the LEAST of your worries
God Bless the NON muslim for yours is the Kingdom of Heaven.

To the followers of Satan, Renounce you vile filth and join the Human Race as created by God Almighty in his image for there you will find PEACE.

Yours faithfully,
RSole

Posted by: RSole at October 8, 2004 10:03 AM

Dear Libbysmom: Rather than try to explain to you the harshness by which Muslims and their great contributions to all societies of which they infest are addressed, I would like to offer you the words of Samuel Adams:

"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution are worth defending at all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have receiv'd them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expence of treasure and blood; and transmitted them to us with care and diligence.

It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightned as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle; or be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men".

Feed on that please, before you begin calling anyone hypocritical. If the spineless ones in our society are willing to give up the American way of life to Muslim racists, they should shut up, and move aside so those who are willing to fight this plaque are able to do it unhindered.

Posted by: DCWatson at October 8, 2004 10:06 AM

It makes me shudder to even contemplate it, and after Beslan I was already imagining a British Beslan, after that homocidal economy leech Omar Bakri said such a massacre in the UK or US would be justified (which I posted to the daily Star and the Sun, who exposed the rat before the entire nation).

If a slaughter as evil took place in America, what would be the reaction of the left??? We already know their reaction to Beslan was minimal.... they made all the right noises initially, and then went on a mission to reveal "the other side of the story" (in other words - "what about all those killed by Russian soldiers in Chechnya." the heartless bastards showing again that their bleeding hearts only seem to bleed the victims of the past,and the villians of the present, and only if it suits their agenda.... and for gods sake, the Russian soldiers didn't hijack checnyan schools did they??? Any women or kids killed most likely were by accident while chechen "rebels" used them as human sheilds!!!).

But we're talking about a slaughter of american children, surely even the most extreme lefty wouldn't be able to excuse that, even if the perpertrator was one of their much-cherished muslims...... would they.
Well I'd like to think not but, then again , I really can't fathom out how their minds work, or if they actually do work at all!!

One thing is for sure though the consequences for islamo-garbage would be severe, and here I'm talking mass deportations (even Kerry's administration would have to; for the safety of the muslims though, rather than out of any kind of common sense), astronomical uproar, and a full scale attack on every known terrorist harbouring country with the full blessing of the UN and Europeans..... oh hold on a minute isn't that how it began after 9/11??? Yes it was, but many seem have forgotton about that or accuse the US government rather than the enemy who has blatantly revealed itself before the closed eyes of millions of westerners.

Oh well if a US, Beslan style massacre did happen (and I hope to god it never does), at least we'd see the back of another tyranical islamic regime, before the world forgot who are enemies are again.

Posted by: Rikki at October 8, 2004 10:44 AM

Kafira-
Keep in mind SWAT forces REACT to crises, they do not PREVENT them, which is why they cannot be relied upon to prevent an attack on a school. It is not their job to conduct patrols and surveillance, which is where the resource deficits are critical.

Posted by: Rottweiller at October 8, 2004 11:21 AM

The left will blame any attacks/atrocities on the administration's prosecution of the war in Iraq.

I don't see Beslan-style attacks as likely, for two reasons:

1. It's been done recently. The element of spectacular surprise bordering on the completely unimaginable (as happened on 9/11) would be missing.

2. Although demoralizing, it would not affect our economy to the extent that the terrorists wish to damage it. That is their number one target. They desire LARGE numbers of casualties and a devastating blow to our economy, a type of attack that would also be more likely to influence the outcome of the elections.

Posted by: CGW at October 8, 2004 1:07 PM

Will Beslan Awaken Us?

Sleep used to come so easily. Now he comes only as would the failed Patron Saint of Beslan, timid and not at all sure that he will be able to fulfill his obligation. I try to drag Sleep out of his hiding and force him to do his job, but he is impatient and very edgy when he does come. His visits are fleeting, like a small wild kitten that you cannot quite touch even if you feed him. Any interruption (such as a bathroom visit) causes him to retreat for the night, looking for more certain and less turbulent souls to call upon.

Sleep is afraid of the images slowly advancing across my mind. Children, covered with blood, naked and eagerly drinking from bottles of water because some Islamic fanatic has made them drink their own urine for 3 days. Bombs rigged to basketball goals. Russian soldiers with cigarettes hanging as lifelessly as the little ones they carry out of the gym, their eyes hollow with disbelief at their task. A tiny cross in a dead and bloody palm. I could go on, but you have all seen them and if they do not haunt you as they do me, then you are already dead. At least on the inside.

Then there are more images that the terrorists took themselves, of themselves; gymnasium-long blood stains running two feet wide through the middle of hundreds of kids who should have, at that particular time, been learning to add and subtract. Pictures of children shot in the back as they attempted to flee when the explosives detonated. Another witness who told of his friend who was run through with a bayonet for asking for a drink

My mind cannot grasp the images that we have not been shown of the terrorists filming themselves raping the children and forcing the parents to watch. If Sleep knew of these images or that their unseen hauntings are what are keeping me from embracing him, he would likely never come again.

Then my mind drifts from the far-away to the close-to-home and I try not to picture my own future grandkids (or any other children) in the same horrible circumstances. But, try as I might, my intuition tells me that it is only a matter of time. When I have previously discussed airplanes and air travel with my friends and family, I have always told them “Forget the airplanes, the next attack will be on a soft target like a school.” Right target. wrong country…for now. We too, are very vulnerable in that area of our culture.

There are so many of these soft targets that it is hard to pick the most vulnerable. Hospitals, amusement parks, non-secured areas of an airport, and voting locations are all areas where law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry firearms. Only the terrorists will have the weapons in these areas. I hope your unarmed combat skills are finely tuned and work well against bullets and bombs!

For all of you with whom Sleep is still a friend, it is time to wake up.

Are you and your family prepared? What can you do? One thing to do is talk to your school administrators and make sure that your children’s schools are locked up tight. In Beslan, the terrorists drove up to the front of the school and stormed the building. Ask the principal how he would handle a Beslan style attack. Better yet, ask the Security office in the local school district. The answers (if you get any) will probably scare you into home schooling your kids. Do you think your school is a safe zone because there is a “Gun Free Campus” sticker on the door? Get your head out of your proverbial backside!

Another thing. We as a nation are blinded by the politically correct crowd who have decimated our ability to pay special attention to those most likely to do us harm: Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40. Do all that you can to make sure these idiotic laws are overturned. They are going to get our kids killed.

Terrorist scenes are nothing new. However, with notable exceptions, few of them involve direct attacks upon the children of their assumed enemy. That difference may be the one thing that our busyness and preference for prosperity over terrorist worries cannot push to the back of our minds. THEY HAVE ATTACKED CHILDREN!

Let that soak in for few days and then find your anger.

Posted by: WhiteWolf at October 8, 2004 1:31 PM

jihadis,
there is no limit to your filth,
your degradation knows no bounds,
your perversions are beyond insanity
you are not fit to be part of humanity,
like a cancer cell you multiply,
and attack your host, soon major organs
are diseased and the body begins to die.
It is the cancer of lies,
it is the cancer of jealousy,
it is the cancer of pride,
and no veil of pretty words can hide
its true intent, like a cancer
you want to take over, make us submit,
and suck our energy and leave us like a husk,
our land a desert, the earth shrived and dead,

Never jihadis, never!
Never to a moon god,
never to a black rock,
to duality, mo and allah:
something for everyone,
from love of a sort to hate via fate,
it’s all here, a complete way of life
boasts the jihadi muslim brother,
submit and there will peace, no strife.

jihadi are a liar and a thief
and a killer of babies,
You are the garbage of mankind.
BE WARNED, by a caring warner,
you are breaking a sacred Law,
And will have to suffer in like kind.

Posted by: the poetess at October 9, 2004 12:42 AM