Regarding 'moderate islam is a solution':

What is moderate islam? Is it the islam of the people I know that even though they live in the US and were brought up in the largest moslem country in the world, yet still believe that the war against terrorism is against Islam?

They may be 'moderate' in that they do not behead anybody, are uncomfortable with kidnappings, violence, etc of their fellow muslims, but when it comes to standing up for basic human right, they never do, because they always 'understand' why those kidnappers, terrorists, etc. do those horrible things.

Unless they totally overhaul their religion abrogate all those anti human right verses in their kuran and hadits, we will never see the end of islamic terrorism.

But then, without those verses it is not Islam anymore, is it?

Posted by: jasmine at October 20, 2004 10:50 AM

Robert - Amen to the success of creating a moderate Islam. I'm not holding my breath as it will not occur during my lifetime. Thus, I will continue to be suspicious of words and motives until I am proved wrong by actions.

Posted by: epg at October 20, 2004 10:51 AM

Although Aykol may indeed be in the moderate camp, like all other Muslims, he seems to be more concerned with countering perceived attacks against Islam by non-Muslims rather than engaging in constructive debate with the radicals. As long as this continues to be the main m.o. with Islamic intellectuals, I fear nothing will change.

Posted by: kafira at October 20, 2004 11:31 AM

I really feel that the very idea of creating a moderate Islam is almost impossible without a greater emphasis on eudcating the masses. The radicals have such a firm grip that they will never let go because they have all the power. I do disagree with Robert about education being a P/C thing to say. After all, when they begin to learn about such things as history and arts won't the question of religion eventually come into the picture? By and large states of Islam are poor (generally, not the governments themselves)and literacy rates are extremely low in comparison to the rest of the world. Just simply teaching these people how to read and handing them a book on religion might be seen as blasphemy now but could lead to a new form of Islam perhaps the same way that Christianity began to do so many years ago.

Posted by: Acidreign at October 20, 2004 11:51 AM

Ali Sina has said flat out that "Islam must go" and that he "wants to kill Islam". This is coming from an escapee of the death cult. Who better knows the possibility of Islam's reform?

Any 'moderate' must demand that the 120+ jihad verses be eliminated from the Qur'an, plus the jihad hadiths, plus the anti-woman suras and hadiths, plus the anti-apostasy verses - and this is just a start. He must acknowledge that the Allah that is 'submitted' to on Friday is the same one who 'dictated' these same verses. He must acknowledge that Muhammad is NOT the perfect man with perfect morals. He must acknowledge the enormous death and destruction that has been done in the name of Islam during the last 1350 years.

After all this is done, what is left? NOTHING.

Ethelred

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 11:54 AM

Ethelred,
Great post buddy!!!
Hows things going at NoJihad???
Sorry I've not emailed in a while, I've got a new "thing" going on the outside world thats been keeping me damn busy.
Keep in touch.

Yours Uncompromisingly Bizarre Rik-ster.

Posted by: Rikki at October 20, 2004 12:11 PM

Rikki,
Your name sucks, try mine!!!

Posted by: Borg Destroyer at October 20, 2004 1:32 PM

Rikki/Rixta

'Outside world'??? Is that another forum?

Somebody (? Ibn Warraq) said there are moderate Muslims but no moderate Islam.

The problem is believing the Koran is the unchangeable, literal word of God. If Muslims just believed that it was 'inspired' by God they could say that all the violent/anti-women stuff was contextual and needs to be edited out. Or they could see it as a dynamic doctrine, eg women getting half men's inheritance may have been an improvement on the situation in 7th century Arabia, where presumably most got nothing, and should be seen as a stepping stone to full equality rather than the definitive rule for all time.

One 'moderate Muslim' who takes this approach is Israd Manji (sorry, spelling all wrong) in her book 'The Trouble with Islam'. But there are problems with her. First and foremost, she has no credibility in the mainstream Muslim world, not least because she is a young, unveiled, gay woman. And secondly, she believes (rightly) that the Koran does contain errors and cannot be the literal word of God. This makes her what Christians would call a heretic, and she has had death threats as a result.

I'm inclined to a rather pessimistic view of Islamic reformation. I've known many good people who are Muslims, but essentially they are 'bad' Muslims, completely unaware of all the nasty stuff in the Koran.

Posted by: Interestd at October 20, 2004 2:23 PM

Interestd:

Who said "There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam"?

That would be me.

Ibn Warraq may have said it also; I don't know.

Ethelred:

You're right. Any reformed Islam would be anti-literalist.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at October 20, 2004 2:26 PM

good discussion. in trying to understand this religion, i am coming to agree with hugh's conclusion that reform may be impossible

to imagine a reformation in comparison to the protestant reformation is like comparing apples and oranges. in the case of christianity, martin luther (and others) protested the catholic church based on interpretation of the Bible. such a debate about the interpretation of the koran, hadith & surah seems nonexistent (except perhaps when enshrouded in taqqiyah in order to deceive us infidels)

Posted by: ted at October 20, 2004 3:18 PM

Robert:

'Who said "There are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam"?

That would be me.'

Well said - I knew it was somebody very wise!!

Posted by: Interestd at October 20, 2004 3:55 PM

Well the Monsters who flew the plans in those buildings all could read!!

The Answer is what Golda Miear Said
We will not have Peace untill the Arabs love their Children more than the hate us???

I saw a gleamer of hope when Islamic Terrorist blew up a school bus full of Iraqi Children?

A Granfather told a news crew " what kind of faith do we have that tells us to kill our Children"

This is the hope for their Faith to stop the hate for all to stop the killing of all can this be done? Don't know is it worth a try Yes?

there things that their scolars can point to that are good and change those that are bad find some old books say that some monsters rewrote thier book and put in all the bad stuff that they had been fooled by the saten that mo-ham-od talked about that took possion of him ?

Like every lib trys to point out I aint no scolar but I'm sure they are out there to start the saving of these people because they are headed for doom if they don't change!!

We will do what it takes to Protect ourselves because you see we do love our Children??

They have a lot of work and will have to do it we can not do it for them? Americans have been very good and have not gone crazy but they will not change to fit them so they can HAVE THEIR HEADS CUT OFF WITH THEIR HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR BACKS ??

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SEE THE THINGS AS THEY ARE KILL OR BE KILLED?

The Mulsums call us stupid are we I think not or as f.g said OH! NO! stupid with a gun?

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DEFEAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
This is what they are up against and so are we??

DECEPTION:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”
Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”
Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”
Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”
Bukhari:V7B71N661 “Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.”
Bukhari:V6B60N8 “Umar said, ‘Our best Qur’an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah’s Apostle himself said, “Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.”
Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”
Qur’an 33:14 “Say: Flight will not avail you if you flee from death, killing, or slaughter. In that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little while. Say, ‘Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you?’”
Qur’an 33:21 “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.”
Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
Qur’an 74:52 “Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear.”
Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.’”
Qur’an 89:5 “There surely is an oath for thinking man.”
Qur’an 92:8 “We will make smooth for him the path to misery.”
Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”
Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”
Qur’an 47:24 “Do they not understand the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding.”
Ishaq:548 “By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ‘There is not much honesty among people nowadays.’”
Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”
Qur’an 5:101 “Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.” Qur’an 5:102 “Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”
Ishaq:567 “Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar.”
Tabari IX:36/Ishaq:596 “‘Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among you own people.’ ‘Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor against me? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah?’ ‘You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected by the Quraysh, and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need, and we comforted you.”
Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”
Tabari VI:110 “When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.’ Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad’s tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, ‘I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.’”
Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”
Ishaq:248 “Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment.”
Qur’an 2:6 “As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.”
Qur’an 2:9 “They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).”
Qur’an 8:18 “This and surely; Allah weakens the deceitful plots of unbelieving infidels.”
Qur’an 8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.” Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”
Qur’an 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”
Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.”
Tabari VII:85/Ishaq:363 “The Jews of the Qaynuqa replied, ‘Muhammad, do you think that we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowledge and you made good use of your opportunity.’”
Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”
Qur’an 61:5 “Moses said: ‘O my people, why do you annoy and insult me, when you well know I am Allah’s Messenger?’ Then when they turned away, Allah caused them to be deceived.”
Bukhari:V4B52N233 “Allah’s Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying copies of the Qur’an. [He said:] Unbelievers will never understand our signs and revelations.”
Ishaq:248 “Allah increases their sickness. A tormented doom awaits the Jews. Allah said, ‘They are mischief makers. They are fools. The Jews deny the truth and contradict what the Apostle has brought. I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.’”
Bukhari:V4B52N147 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A man may seem as if he were practicing the deeds of Paradise while in fact he is from the people of Hell.’”
Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”
Ishaq:383 “One of the young men’s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ‘You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.’”
Qur’an 3:24 “They have been deceived by the lies they have themselves fabricated; their religion has deceived them.”
Ishaq:397 “Then Allah said, ‘It is not for any prophet to deceive.”
Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”
Tabari VIII:23 “The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Qur’an. Then Nu’aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.’ Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.’”
Ishaq:496 “‘By Allah you lie,’ one said to another. ‘Liar yourself!’ ‘You are a disaffected person arguing on behalf of the diseased.”
Bukhari:V4B53N408 “When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ‘This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.’ The (Meccans) said, ‘If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ‘This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.’ The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ‘Apostle of Allah.’ On that Ali said, ‘I will never erase it.’ Muhammad said, ‘Let me see the paper.’ The Prophet
erased the expression with his own hand.”

Posted by: Catherine at October 20, 2004 4:23 PM

Robert:

I think that most of us, including Hugh, attribute the quote to Sir Warraq, but we will have to check who has the copyright.

To the others:

Islam has always been the same and behaved the same, especially after 900 or so. We in the West simply cannot believe such an evil exists, especially as a 'religion', and simply do not have the cultural memory of those times long ago. Hindus, however, are accustomed to long-term history; just ask any Hindu who is even slightly aware of India's history about Islam and Muslims.

Allow me to quote from Hugh, taken from a discussion between us about the possibility of interpreting the Qur'an, and hence Islam becoming something more benign. He said it was basically impossible because:

1) the canonical texts are immutable 2) the gates of ijtihad slammed shut a millennium ago 3) anyone who does not know the full Qur'anic teachings is always open to learning them -- and then, instead of rejecting them, many people will embrace them -- so strong is the brainwashing of Islam 4) should we Infidels take a chance that a sufficient number of Muslims will NOT accept the full teacings of Islam? Why? What is the evidence from history -- the evidence all goes the other, more painful and distressing way. Why should we act on anything other than Ibn Warraq's formulation: "There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate." To which I would add: One never knows precisely in what that "moderation" consists -- is it the result of ignorance, or of knowledge and then deliberate rejection of some of the tenets of Islam? Only the latter is acceptable, because ignorance can always be replaced by knowledge and then acceptance. And if there is at this point "deliberate rejection" by a few Muslims of the worst and most dangerous teachings of Islam, so what? They are a very small number. They do not speak out. They help to render Infidels unwary, and more susceptible to Da'wa, demographic conquest, and the other kind as well. And finally, they can always change their minds, and become more insistent on jihad, etc. And besides, again, WHY should Infidels base their entire way of thought, way of life, achievements as a civilization, legacy that ought to be tended, however imperfect we are, and handed down to some pathetic posterity (god knows we don't deserve the legacy of those centuries), on the assurances of "some" Muslims or the belief by some non-Muslims that "some" Muslims, are neither 1) ignorant of Muslim teachings nor 2) practicing taqiyya or 3) embarrassed to admit to themselves, or to others, what those teachings really mean and actually do not wish non-Muslims ill. What a chance to take! What folly!

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 4:36 PM

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
And lets look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?
There will be no more warnings?

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat give them Courage to Stand and Fight them Amen

Posted by: Catherine at October 20, 2004 4:44 PM

Ethel, honey,

Far be it from me to take anything away from Ibn Warraq. I claim no originality. Pardon me: I have said the phrase so many times, I started to think it was mine. But no doubt it is his.

Cordially
RS

Posted by: jihadwatch at October 20, 2004 4:48 PM

Akyol: "We just wish to cleanse that path from the distortions of the politically oriented radicals and intolerant bigots."
Akyol's comments just don't hold water. First of all, the jihadists aren't distorting the Qur'an - they are quoting it verbatim. So sorry about Sura 9:5 and all the other charming incitements of discrimination, hostility and violence in the Qur'an and elsewhere, but the radicals and "bigots" didn't put them there - Mohammed did.
As for the "intolerant bigot" remark, I would say Mr. Akyol is suffering from the common problem Mulsims have projecting the bigotry and intolerance of their own ideology's doctrines on those who are opposed to such arrogance. It is nothing more than the tried and true attempt to stifle criticism of Islam and its doctrines by slandering its critics. This is what it is - the suppression of free thought, conscience and speech, and it reflects poorly on Mr. Akyol, CAIR, and all the others guilty of this offense.

Posted by: Mike at October 20, 2004 4:58 PM

Bobby,

I do that kind of thing all the time, whereby what I have read gets lumped together, and who said what gets lost.

On the other topic:

Islam exists in a bizarro universe, where black is white, love is hate, peace is war.

To Muslims, dhimmitude is the way non-Muslims should be treated.

To Muslims, women are the last problem for his believers that Muhammad left unsolved: "I have not left after me turmoil for the people but the harm done to men by women." (Sahih Muslim, 6604, as described by Ram Swarup in his "Understanding the Hadith", p. 200 (Prometheus).

To Muslims, the Qur'an has 'clear convincing arguments' and an apostate is an evil that must be eradicated.

To Muslims, the world is originally Muslim, and hence that which is not under Islamic control is an abomination (Qutb, Maududi).

To Muslims, the earlier prophets back to Adam and Eve were Muslim, and hence MUST have received the same revelation. Since the Hebrew and Christian Bibles do not have the Islamic revelation, Jews and Christians have lied and rewritten their own Holy Books.

Stare into the eyes of a knowledgeable, believing Muslim, and you will see pure hatred, since YOU are an abomination. Back any Muslim logically up against a wall, and they must lash out, or else lose their mind.

The question "Why is a Muslim here in the secular, non-believing, disgusting, immoral, decadent West?" must be asked again and again to each Muslim. The answer, after all of the lies are stripped away is simply, "To destroy you." We simply cannot trust any Muslim to be on the side of Western civilization.

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 5:30 PM

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 05:30 PM

From my understanding such as it is the mulsums believe that God favored the Jewish people and Gave his words to them and the Laws but mo-ham-od Decided that they had broken the laws and fallen out of favor but If a Jew is true to his Faith they are as good as holy but of course the monsters like saddam and other's who had come before have made changes to their Book the Qu-ran?

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Suppoet them Amen

Posted by: Catherine at October 20, 2004 5:59 PM

Catherine,

Before I go into my understanding, I urge you to visit Ali Sina's site
Faith Freedom International, and read what he, an ex-muslim, has to say, plus of course Ibn "there are moderate Muslims, but no moderate Islam" Warraq's "Why I Am Not A Muslim". I claim no originality.

Islam says that Muhammad is the final prophet, and his revelation supercedes, corrects and completes all others (meaning Jewish and Christian revelations). Supercessionism is not unique to Islam, since Christianity says that it corrects and completes Judaism.

The early suras (Meccan) are full of peace and love, since Muhammad was trying to convince Jews and Christians that he belonged in their pantheon of prophets. The bits and pieces of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles in the Qur'an are incorrectly quoted, out of context, and out of chronology, and in many cases directly refute the original (as in denying Jesus' crucifixion).

After Muhammad was rebuffed, he turned angry and declared them the enemy precisely BECAUSE of their beliefs. The more a Jew clings to his religion, the more hated he is.

As an aside, Cooke and Crone, who have much work on the historical development of the Qur'an would look at the above as fantasy, since they think that the Qur'an, far from being dictated to Muhammad by Gabriel, developed over 200 years or so as a way to explain and justify the wars with and conquering of Arabia and the Middle East. This makes the most sense to me, but we are talking about what Muslims believe to be true, not what is true.

Anyway, Muslims believe that Allah always existed, and so the revelation to Jews and Christians MUST have been the same, but they rejected it, and lied about that fact in writing their holy books, making them all the more damned.

Islam denies Western religious history in its attempt to rule the world. Read Bat Ye'or's "Islam and Dhimmitude".

Sadaam is a friend of the Islamists only because he fought the Infidel. His secularism, brutality to other Muslims (although Shia don't count to Sunnis) was overlooked because Muslims would rather be ruled by a brutal Arab than a benevolent Infidel.

Hope this helps.

Ethelred

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 6:41 PM

Hope this helps.

Ethelred

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 06:41 PM

I know!! What would you have us do kill them all?

Trying in my little way to show them the Fork in the Road?

Because things like this ?

INTOLERANCE:

Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur’an 4:114 “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Ishaq:344 “We smote them and they scattered. The impious met death. They became fuel for Hell. All who aren’t Muslims must go there. It will consume them while the Stoker [Allah] increases the heat. They had called Allah’s Apostle a liar. They claimed, ‘You are nothing but a sorcerer.’ So Allah destroyed them.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur’an 33:64 “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”

Qur’an 5:10 “Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire.”

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

Bukhari:V1B11N617 “I would order someone to collect firewood and another to lead prayer. Then I would burn the houses of men who did not present themselves at the compulsory prayer and prostration.”

Bukhari:V1B11N626 “The Prophet said, ‘No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. Certainly I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.’ So someone said, ‘Allah’s Apostle, wouldn’t this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?’”

Qur’an 72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

Qur’an 72:17 “If any turns away from the reminder of his Lord (the Qur’an), He will thrust him into an ever growing torment, and cause for him a severe penalty.”

Qur’an 72:25 “Whoever disobeys the Lord and His Messenger then there is for him the fire of Hell where they shall abide forever.”

Qur’an 88:21 “You are not a warden over them; except for those who turn away and disbelieve, in which case, he will be punished with the severest punishment. Verily to Us they will return.”

Qur’an 90:19 “But those who reject Our Signs, Proofs, and Verses, they are the unhappy Companions of the Left Hand. Fire will be their awning, vaulting over them.”

Qur’an 95:4 “We have indeed created man in the best molds. Then do We abase him, reducing him to be the lowest of the low, except such as believe.”

Tabari VIII:130 “The Messenger said, ‘Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.’ Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: ‘Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.”

Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

And it goes on and on and on!!

The Iraqi People want Freedom as does most of the mulsum world the big ? is can they live with others?

When the learn to love their Children more then they hate US??

Calling them names and saying that they are wrong 100% puts them in a corner?

They Voted for the First time in their history and the Terrorist did not stop them? This is the power of Freedom Remember a baby does not come out walking?

If you want someone on your team not a good Idea to just punch him in the Face???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her Give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Defeat the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at October 20, 2004 7:15 PM

Catherine,

You constantly amaze me with your ability to bring out the quotes!

I was just trying to answer what you asked.

As far as what to do, I offer this (with great gobs of thanks to Hugh, Ali, Robert and others):

1) Continually work to bring the truth of what Islam really is to Westerners, but let's start with Americans. Fight to be able to discuss Islam truthfully, without the politically correct hounding us. This is starting to happen, too slowly for me, but it is happening. Muslims are still a small minority here, and the sooner they are forced to explain to us why Islam is not bad, and be on the defensive, the better.

2) Bring the truth of Islam to ignorant Muslims and help them leave the cult. This is what Ali Sina is trying to do. As an ex-Muslim, he carries much more weight with Muslims than you, me and Robert put together (sorry Bob!). The important thing, is that, if a Muslim honestly listens to the truth about Islam, and does not leave, then he cannot be trusted and must be watched. Yes, leaving is painful, but following the teachings of a psychopath and the orders of cult leaders even after learning the truth marks that person as dangerous.

3) Limit immigration - they are waging a demographic jihad.

3a) No foreign aid to Islamic governments.

4) Work to have Islam defined as institutional hate, and get it lumped with Nazism. It should have no more privileges here than it gives others in Saudi Arabia.

5) Actively fight the Islamists and the countries that support them. I personally don't care one bit about the suffering of Iraqis - they deserved Sadaam. Knocking him off, disarming the country totally, hanging around until some government forms, and then leaving might have been better. Other, more knowledgeable people have written that having a permanent, strong force in the region, backed with air and sea power, that monitors countries like Iran, warns them, AND THEN BACKS UP THE WARNINGS with painful repercussions to their infrastructure would be the most fruitful.

6) GET OFF OIL

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 7:43 PM

Er, uh, Ethel old man,

"As an ex-Muslim, he carries much more weight with Muslims than you, me and Robert put together (sorry Bob!)."

No need to apologize. You're 100% correct.

Cordially
RS

Posted by: jihadwatch at October 20, 2004 7:47 PM

UP THE WARNINGS with painful repercussions to their infrastructure would be the most fruitful.

6) GET OFF OIL

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 07:43 PM

We are on the same side you write much beter than me of course And the People are being warned and are Listening??

ANWAR and the Hidro car a Few things in Bush Plan that can't make it out of the Senate??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH,WISDOM,SIGHT AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VICTORY TO DEFEAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEM

Posted by: Catherine at October 20, 2004 8:15 PM

Catherine,

Yes, we are on the same side!

People are listening and the debate is changing, but slowly. I am working on a project that might help, but I can't get into the details yet.

9/11 was a major miscalculation, in my view, of Osama Bin Ladin, as was Pearl Harbor for the Japanese: both awoke the sleeping giant. Muslims, as is their wont, mix this very deep inferiority complex with utter grandiosity and megalomania. They think that they are strong enough now to start attacking the world of the Infidel. If they just kept breeding, they might have succeeded before we knew what happened.

A co-worker originally from Belgium assures me that, despite appearances, Europeans are not going to roll over and play dead. He predicts civil war in 10-15 years, as the Muslims keep pushing and finally overstep the bounds.

What will happen here if things in say, New York, get like Israel with suicide bombers on buses or subways, or if there are truck bombings at chemical plants, is anybody's guess. But I don't think we will just stand by and take it. Israel has been heroically restrained.

I think expulsion is the ultimate answer.

Posted by: Ethelred at October 20, 2004 8:32 PM

Ethelred - great post ! I agree, if 9/11 hadn't happened the muslims would have carried on breeding, slowly infiltrating, slowly converting BUT the attacks on New York & Washington have blown their cover. It's now up to all of us to continually show our friends what islam really is all about - once the deathworshippers and their PC apologists are well and truly on the defensive we'll know we'll have won in the short term. In the long term we have to ensure that we don't suffer another jihad down the line somewhere, the non-muslims of the world have got to unite to destroy this disgusting cult once and for all and for the good of all humanity !.

Posted by: Son Of Albion at October 21, 2004 1:33 PM

Dr. JACK SHEPARD THROUGH PEOPLE FOR PEACE GROUP

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/People_for_Peace_Group

CLICK TO JOIN AND SUPPORT THE RELEASE OF MRS. HASSAN UNHARMED.

IS CALLING FOR A PRAYER MRS. MARGARET HASSAN. AT NOON, NOVEMBER 1, 2004 WHERE EVER YOU ARE PLEASE STOP AND PRAY FOR ONE MINUTE THAT MRS. MARGARET HASSAN'S KIDNAPPERS BEGIN TO FEAR ALLAH FOR THEIR ACTION AGAINST A REAL ANGEL OF ALLAH'S MERCY, AND THAT MRS. MARGARET IS RELEASED HER UNHARMED.

NOVEMBER 1, 2004 MARK THE 2ND WEEK OF HER KIDNAPPING. WE PRAY THAT ALLAH OPENS THE EYES OF MRS. HASSAN'S KIDNAPPERS, WHAT THEY DO IS BLASPHEME AGAINST ALLAH

MARGARET HASSAN WHO HEADS CARE INTERNATIONAL IN IRAQ.

PLEASE TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND HAVE THIS PUBLISHED OR POSTED WHERE EVER YOU CAN! WE PRAY THAT THE KIDNAPPERS BEGIN TO FEAR ALLAH FOR THEIR ACTION AGAINST A REAL ANGEL OF ALLAH'S MERCY, AND RELEASE HER UNHARMED.

KIDNAPPERS OF MRS.MARGARET HASSAN; REMEMBER SHE IS A REAL ANGEL OF ALLAH'S MERCY. BEWARE AND FEAR GOD IF YOU HARM HER!

I PRAY THAT ALLAH OPENS YOUR EYES THAT IF YOU HARM HER, YOU CERTAINLY WILL KNOW AND DO BELEIVE THAT YOU WILL BE PUNISHED IN THE FIRE OF HELL, WHEREIN YOU SHALL DWELL FOREVER AND EVER.

TO JOIN US JUST CLICK ON
http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/People_for_Peace_Group

MAY GOD BLESS YOU FOR CARING ABOUT MRS. HASSAN AND JOINING OUR CALL FOR HER RELEASE UNHARMED.

................................................

WE CALL FOR THE IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF MRS. HASSAN A REAL ANGEL OF MERCY. BEWARE AND FEAR GOD!
BY DR. JACK E. SHEPARD

Join us now to support our call for the immediate release of Mrs. Margaret Hassan
who heads Care International in Iraq.

I have formed People for Peace Group especially with the Care International today, October 23, 2004 to show our support for the immediate release of Margaret Hassan, who heads CARE International work in Iraq.

She was kidnapped in Baghdad on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 as she was heading to work at CARE International. Hassan has joint British, Irish and Iraqi citizenship and has spent nearly half her life delivering food and medicine in Iraq.

Join us in asking that she be returned to her loved ones "in the most sacred Islamic month."

Join us in also Warning the hostage takers that their action of kidnapping and harming civilians aid workers is against the Teaching of the Prophet Muhammed and is forbidden in the Koran.

People for Peace Group which I founded in Rome, Italy will now be also using this new Care International site to organize world support to free Margaret Hassan a real Angel of Mercy.

Please join our call to ask her hostage takers to show her mercy. They have to remember they should fear God, because they have to know hostage taking and harming of people of mercy like Mrs. Margaret Hassan is forbidden in the Koran.

God will one day judge them on their actions and if they harm Mrs. Margaret Hassan certainly they will be punished in the fire of Hell, wherein where they shall dwell forever and ever.

We a urging the hostage takers to immediately release free Mrs. Margaret Hassan a real Angel of Mercy.

People for Peace Group is an Interfaith Group of mult-national individuals many active and retired Government and United Nations Employees. Please Join us by clicking on:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/People_for_Peace_Group “ Click Here”

You can also visit, my- web site- www.shepardusgov.com, showing my work trying to the End "the past" Iraqi Sanctions, click on Real Victims to see photos of my visits to Baghdad's Children's Hospital in 2001.

I am testimony to the over 1,490,000 Iraqi men, women and children that Saddam Hussein would not purchase Medicine or Medical equipment for with his Billions of Dollars. Saddam Hussein chose to just watch million of poor Iraqi’s die without helping them or caring for them.

Saddam Hussein chose only to use them as victims to blame on the Iraqi Sanctions.

Presently I am working to ending the present Iraqi War be teaching through our faith in God by work together is the only way to bring peace to the Middle East.

My present editorial campaign; is to stimulate Peace in Iraq by informing the world and especially the militant insurgents and extremists in Iraq that these edicts or fatwa published by spiritual leaders or religious scholars are false doctrines.

The Prophet Muhammad taught that the Koran was the infallible Word of God and the Koran is complete and edicts can not be added to the Koran.

The Prophet taught that choosing the scholars or the dictionary over Allah reflects a disbelief in Allah and His word (Koran)

"They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords; instead of Allah.."9:31 " So after the truth (Koran ), what else can thee be, save error?" Koran 10:32

These edicts are blaspheme against God and the Prophet Muhammad taught to follow these edicts or fatwa is evil.

If a kidnapper uses these edicts of fatwa for example cut the head off a hostage aid worker; the Holy Koran, guarantees punishment, "In the fires of Hell, wherein they shall dwell forever."

Just as important suicide bombers I am warning that the Koran taught any person who intentionally kills themselves, "they certainly will be punished in the fire of Hell, wherein they shall dwell forever and ever."

May God Bless the Middle East with Peace, please join us to call for the immediate release of Mr. Margaret Hassan.

Dr. Jack Shepard

TO JOIN US JUST CLICK ON
http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/People_for_Peace_Group

Posted by: Dr. Jack Shepard at October 24, 2004 3:42 PM