A Lament is a passive and weak response. A vigorous, active response is needed at this time. It appears that the Dutch are frozen in a state of inaction and can only talk about the problem. They are very thoroughly civilized and socialized to the point of being ineffective for their own defense.

Bodyguards and new laws are useless in the face of this predation that engulfs everything and laughs while DISREGARDING laws that are but abstractions and aren't enforceable when the other side doesn't recognize or simply disregards their existence.

Posted by: epg at November 6, 2004 6:00 AM

Close the bloody doors of immigration to these people....for goodness sakes what on earth has to happen next for people in Europe to wake up to these individuals from the dark ages?.

These people will be the curse of Europe, they will never be European.

Posted by: Joe Bananas...in Pyjamas at November 6, 2004 6:05 AM

At the very least there should be an immediate moratorium on further Muslim immigration into Holland.

The authorities have been presented with a perfect reason for taking action right now and they should seize it. The vast majority of Dutch citizens would welcome such a move.

Or will they dither and dhimmi and delay until national and local government is packed with muslims and their suicidal stooges?

Posted by: Benelux at November 6, 2004 6:44 AM

It's great that Mohammad B is being tried as a terrorist. Let's be grateful for small blessings.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 6, 2004 7:12 AM

When did Europe ingest the stupid pill and how long are its effects?

Posted by: Moe's Foe at November 6, 2004 8:05 AM

Here is a bittorrent file of the controversial short documentary by Theo van Gogh en Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The subtitles are Dutch, but most of documentary is spoken English.

http://66.90.75.92/suprnova//torrents/2963/Theo%20Van%20Gogh_-_Hirsi%20Ali_-_Submission_xvid-avi.torrent

Posted by: ariel at November 6, 2004 8:14 AM

These people will be the curse of Europe, they will never be European.

Well, Europeans haven't learned anything from past recent history. Everyone will finally panic when ordinary people are murdered by terrorist, but don't hold your breath until then. Theo Van Gogh is already being described in the press as a racist, an extremist, a right-winger, eccentric. That makes it much easier for everyone to stay calm with heads in the sand, I suppose.

A few years ago, I was planning a trip to England and Holland, but canceled it because of the increasing outbreaks of antisemitism. Of course, at that time the press were making apologies for Muslims by being 'understanding' of the hatred for Israel spilling over onto their own citizens. Does anyone actually believe that any country in Europe will see this as one more wake-up call?

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Posted by: libbysmom at November 6, 2004 8:22 AM

This guy will be tried as a 'terrorist'. That's fine and good, but the term terrorist has lost most of it's meaning. What is he? Is he a Basque? Is he an IRA guy? Is he an Arian Nation, Tim McVeigh type?? Why can't he be tried as a Muslim? Why can't we admit that it is the tenets of his religion that provided him with the legitimacy to kill Theo Van Gogh. If we admit this then we have to decide if any one who is a proponent of a religion that justifies the death of any critic is a true member of our free and open society. People who live in a free place like Holland must decide if this is something that can be allowed. Are there creeds that are incompatible with a free society? Someone needs to really think about this. Terrorism is just too vague.

Posted by: tger at November 6, 2004 9:34 AM

What the dutch should be aware of , is that the murder of Van Gogh was an act of terrorism on the dutch people, and therefore an act of war technically speaking.

It was done to intentionally intimidate the dutch public, and had a statement printed allover it:

"we are muslims, we are in your country, our numbers are growing. Already we have a muslim population in every European town and city, a global jihad has been called for, and it is underway. This is the beggining of the Jihad in the Netherlands. Your government will do nothing substantial to combat us, therefore we will keep taking the piss, murdering anyone who dares appose us, and anything large scale to combat our jihadist movement will be seen by the European authorities, NATO, and the UN as ethnic cleansing, making us untouchable....."

Any dutch reading this, this statement is being made all over Europe, in the UK the jihad has took it's form as a demographic conquest, with defiant muslim hate preachersaudaciously making hate speeches on our streets.
France has been almost totally dhimmitized, with the huge number of Algerians that immigrated there...and the sudden surge of muslims into france from allover the world that followed.
Germany is being overun by Turks.
In Serbia/Kosovo, muslims near enough own the place now, after the UN (led by a niave Clinton and a much less aware Tony Blair) obliterated serbs during their ethnic cleansing campaign...which was attrocious, but so where the attrocities commited by the Albanian rebels who had even less right to be there. Top and bottom of it being Milosovic, despicable though he is, at least saw the islamic threat for what it is and took action....just the wrong action.

It's happening allover Europe, the ones aware of this menace need to team together, meet up, and start making plans to fight it...soo if not NOW!!!
Their arrogant, over-confidence, their religious obsessiveness, their primitive awareness, and their under-estimating of Europeans, are their weaknesses, and will be the key to their downfall.

Posted by: Rikki at November 6, 2004 9:39 AM

How sad that Muslims are about to do what the Nazis couldn't,destroy the Country and impose a facists belief that will murder any decension.
It's far too late for Muslims to claim this was a rare cause of a madman not connected to Islam,the jig is up and the true face of Islam
has reared its head to be a cancer on the Dutch and kill them from within.

Again I'll contest the rants by scuzzy muzzy's
that is a small minority ruining it for the good Muslims.
Even if only 0.5 percent of the worlds Muslims ascibe to murdering God's children for Allah,that still about 7 Million closet Jihadists willing to
attempt the slaughter of thousands in exchange for finally getting laid by a female that isn't concerned aboput a Muslims personal hygene that can make some people barf.
If only 1000 people are killg per Islamist,that 7 billion humans murdered for Allah and there are only about 6.5 billion on Earth,talk about "paradise lost",Muslim are willing to wipe out all life on earth to bring peace to mankind that doesn't exist anymore.
The only good news is that heaven will be less crowded since all the Muslims will be in hell for either killing God's children,or failing to stop it by remaining mute about known terroristic actions in their neighbourhood.

NO - HIS LAMB
KNOW PEAS

Posted by: ala-sux at November 6, 2004 10:02 AM

Sites like JW are so important. The first line of defense is knowledge. There is a lot of bluster here inspired by frustration and some of it is only marginally useful, but some of the posts are rational masterpieces. Hugh is awesome. I would pay to watch him debate a mullah. There are many other very good posters here. Everyone who writes here has their part to play. Keep it up and tell your friends to check out JW. Nobody will agree with all the posts, but noone will go away ignorant either. So if the above lawmaker is just now lamenting the arrival of the jihad in the Netherlands, he should have been reading this site. He would have known that the jihad was there a long time before Theo Van Gogh was executed to protect Allah and all the Muslims from the truth.

Posted by: tger at November 6, 2004 10:58 AM

A very simple fact is overlooked by many.

!!!!A multicultural society can not accomodate a uniculture!!!
..............
Can anyone point out just one Islamic country that is known for its kind treatment of its infidel minorities?

And where is there one with a large muslim minority that has any peace?

Indonesia is always touted by the liberal media as practicing a moderate strain of Islam.

So how was the May 1998 pogrom against ethnic Chinese possible in this moderate nation of Islam?
Not to mention the regular machette attacks on Christian villagers, forced genital mutilation on the ones terrorized into conversion.

If Islam is a religion of peace and toleration, then of the fifty or so islamic nations, where are they? ... (the ones of Freedom, Peace and Toleration)
In Pakistan and Bangladesh Shiites and Sunnis bomb each others mosques.

Posted by: Uhller_Isshaytan at November 6, 2004 12:07 PM

Throw them out before they turn Europe into a wasteland like the place they came from!

Posted by: Jakester at November 6, 2004 12:10 PM

Authorities consider new measures including revoking the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity.....

Well by damn that's really putting the hammer down on the Muslim problem in Holland. That is one measure that is sure as hell going to stop em dead in their tracks.

Future headlines....DUTCH GOVERNMENT FIDDLES WHILE HOLLAND BURNS

Posted by: krkrjak at November 6, 2004 12:35 PM

Beheadings on the Rise Around the World

Sat Nov 6,10:01 AM ET

By LOUIS MEIXLER, Associated Press Writer

ANKARA, Turkey - It was called "Operation Baghdad" and, to be sure, the headless bodies of the three police officers recalled the violence in that city. But these attacks happened in Haiti, not in Iraq (news - web sites).

The brutal beheadings in Iraq appear to have inspired militants in other parts of the world who are drawn to the shock value of the horrifying attacks and the intense publicity they attract.

Thailand and the Netherlands are two other countries where suspected extremists recently beheaded or slit the throats of their victims in what appear to be copycat attacks.

Rime Allaf, associate fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, said beheadings are spreading because the practice "has so horrified us in the West."

"It achieves results and it makes the headlines," Allaf added. "People are talking about groups that we've never heard about before."

The horrifying tactic has spread as far as the Caribbean island nation of Haiti, where loyalists of ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide seized on the Iraqi beheadings as a symbol of strength and intimidation.

The headless bodies of three police officers were found in Port-au-Prince early last month, and authorities said the militants had launched a terror campaign called "Operation Baghdad."

Nobody claimed responsibility for the decapitations, but Aristide supporters echoed that thought.

"We'll be in the streets until death or Aristide comes back," protester Milo Fenelon said a few days later. "We won't stop. If they come in here, we're going to cut off their heads. It's going to be just like Baghdad."

In Thailand this week, a Buddhist village leader was beheaded after being shot in the chest. A note was left on his body saying his slaying was to avenge the killing of Muslim rioters by government forces.

And in Amsterdam, a suspected Islamic extremist shot and killed Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, then slit his throat. A note was left impaled by a knife on his body quoting from the Quran and threatening more killings.

"It's an ideal terrorist tool," said Jonathan Stevenson, senior fellow for counterterrorism at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Washington. "It is a horrifying image and I would say it is disproportionately frightening."

The first beheading by Islamic militants in Iraq was the slaying in May of American civilian Nicholas Berg. The killers posted a video on the Internet showing them pushing a bound Berg to his side, putting a large knife to his neck and cutting off his head as a scream sounded and the killers shouted "Allahu akbar!" — "God is great!"

A month later, an al-Qaida-linked Saudi group beheaded an American engineer in Saudi Arabia. The group did not mention Iraq but the executioners called themselves the "Fallujah Brigade" after the city in Iraq that U.S. forces had been besieging.

Since then, at least 12 foreigners, including three other Americans, have been beheaded in Iraq as part of a wave of kidnappings. Videos and the Internet were used to distribute the horrifying images across the world, compounding the shock value.

"I think the initial reason for the beheadings was true shock and awe," Allaf said. "These people are extremely media savvy."

The first beheading of a foreigner touted by Islamic militants was that of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, slain in Pakistan in 2002.

Decapitations had previously occurred in Algeria, Kashmir (news - web sites), Chechnya (news - web sites) and the Muslim-dominated southern Philippines but had rarely been used in past militant attacks in the Middle East.

The high-profile killings have inspired some revulsion from Muslims and in recent days there has been a heated debate on Web sites as to whether Islam endorses beheadings.

Mainstream scholars and intellectuals also have spoken out against beheadings, with some saying that the bloody practice is tarnishing the name of Muslims across the world.

"Beheadings and (the) mutilation of bodies stand against Islam," said Egypt's foremost religious leader, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi.

The shock value also has been decreasing with so many beheadings in Iraq, experts say, and newspapers and television stations are devoting less time and space to the killings.

"The benefit of these spectacular kidnappings and beheadings is going down and down," said Michael Radu, a terrorism analyst at the Foreign Policy Research Institute in Philadelphia.

"Sooner rather than later terrorists will have a problem in that killing innocents is not bringing them what they want and what they want is spectacular media coverage," he said. "Terrorism is part theater. When the theater part of it is cut off, then it doesn't make sense to kill or kidnap people."

Posted by: susan_b at November 6, 2004 2:02 PM

The real "radicals" are non-violent Islamic reformers like these.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at November 6, 2004 3:20 PM

Thanks for the torrent, ariel.

Posted by: Doctor Phibes at November 6, 2004 4:00 PM

I have a theory that Muslims are really
Martians in disguise. If this is true they can be effectively combatted by driving through
their communities and blasting Slim Whitman tunes from pickup truck mounted loudspeakers ala "Mars Attacks!".
...It's worth a try.

Posted by: Richard at November 6, 2004 4:17 PM

Predominantly muslim countries where other religions are tolerated:

Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and yes even Iraq.

In all these countries, you will find pluralism, multi-ethnic, multi-religious:

1) assyrian christians (iraq, syria, and a majority in Lebanon),
2) jews (iraq, egypt, lebanon, syria)
3) muslims (majority except in Lebanon)
4) sobi (iraq)
5) ziti (iraq - peacock god)

You found in the television coverage that there are indeed centuries-old churches in Iraq as there are in Jerusalem. This irrefutably supports the fact that muslims did not destroy the places of worship on non-muslims under their jurisdiction. These places were not defended by great armies, but by muslim armies in exchange for payment of the jizya (income tax on non-muslims) and support by zakat (obligatory tax from muslims)

Since the occupation, these churches have been targeted by terrorist, something that had not occurred previously in the history of Iraq, leading iraqis to believe the attacks were committed by terrorist infiltrators and not iraqis.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 10:32 AM

I want to recommend that people visit www.zachtei.nl , a Dutch blog in English.

Posted by: josie at November 7, 2004 12:03 PM

Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:

In the past 6 months:

1) I have come in contact with arabs or muslims in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
(y / n)

2) engaged muslims or arabs in a face to face dialogue about Islam.

3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam

4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions

5) watched a television documentary about Islam

6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local mosque

7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue

8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Islam

9) come in contact with arabs or muslims in the course of my daily affairs

10) befriended at least one arab or muslim in the course of my daily affairs

Thank you for your comments.
Posted by: hatshepsut [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 7, 2004 11:44 AM

If you do not want to post your answers to the 10 survey questions here, please email them to me at info@amwanet.org

All replies will be answered. These survey questions will be posted in other similar forums and web logs.

Thank you for your participation.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 1:29 PM

Anyone who chooses to answer this moron, hateshutup, remember:

He is trying to classify what kind of Hate you suffer from. Which is an Outright LIE about YOU.

He is totally bogus. Why do you keep bothering with him? So he can make a report to post on islamic hate sites around the world?

Don't let this bastard get away with an attempt to discredit. Do not let him do what the Left will be pleased to have him do! Think! This is the same kind of person who would work to dehumanize people in Nazi Germany, prior to slaughtering them.

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 1:31 PM

What may bother you the most, Gary, is they MAY choose to answer by email, and you will be none the wiser.

Have a great day :-) !

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 3:52 PM

without speculating as to hatshepsut's intentions, i must admit it is a little strange to be annonymously soliciting opinions for some sort of study in the blogosphere. not very empirical, to say the least

Posted by: ted at November 7, 2004 7:56 PM

wasn't hatshepsut the egyptian step-mother of moses?

Posted by: ted at November 7, 2004 7:57 PM

Hatshesput,
Stuff your questions up your asshole.
All you need to know from me is that I have done more than enough research into islam, know more muslims than I really want to know, have read the koran, have listened to both sides of every story, took the stance of a neutral on both islamic extremist , "moderate", and anti-jihadist sites such as JW.

I was once one of the ignorant , gullible westerners who saw islam as one of the worlds religions, and saw nothing dangerous about it.
After my period of research, however.... well lets just say my opinions on your beloved death cult have drastically changed.

Hows about you go to one of your islamic hate-spewing forums , or even a mosque, and do a survey on muslims asking them such questions as :

Are terrorists "un-islamic"???

Do you believe islam should, or will one day cover the planet???

Do you hate, dislike, or disrespect infidels??
If so why???
If not how do you view them : Inferior, dirty, ignorant, imperialist, other (specify)???.... select as you wish.

In your own words describe jihad.

What do you think of jews???

Do you think Beslan was justified???

Do you think it id right that suicide bombers attack innocent Israeli civilians???

Do you think it's alright for kids to be brain-washed into becoming suicide bombers???

Do you really believe that arabs have been, in what is now Israel since "time immemorial", or is it just another jihad technique to exile jews from arabia???

I know it's hard for muslims but ask them to answer honestly....maybe you could try it yourself.

Posted by: Rikki at November 8, 2004 7:42 AM

...Predominently Muslim countries that tolerate other faiths -- Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and yes even Iraq..."

Yeah, all of the above are so tolerant aren't they? A Canadian woman, Judy Carr, has spent years ransoming the few thousand remaining Jews out of Syria. Iraq's Jewish population has been decimated over the last three centuries to the point of there being about 50 left (and no, they didn't all leave after the establishment of the State of Israel. There's the Baghdadi Jews of India who left in the 1700s and many other exoduses in between). Jordan... ...I think they banned Jews shortly after its establishment and do not know if this law has since been repealled and as for the tolerance shown Christians in the same place... ...I'd rather hear from Christians from those countries. Right now, they are most certainly being persecuted in Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, to @ssh@t hatshepsut's claim of tolerance is laughable to say the least. It's easy to tolerate people, who, in the main, just ain't there, isn't it?

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 8, 2004 12:13 PM