Great article. Worth registering for.

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at November 7, 2004 7:06 AM

Could this explain WHY there have been so many sightings of Middle Easterners crossing the border into Arizona. Now we know the attraction.

Also consider the possibility that, as in Iraq where the WMDs have yet to be found and that jets and other large equipment have be unearthed in the desert sands, perhaps we have buried in our desert all that the jihad needs to carry out its plan.

The jihadists are mainly people of the desert, and American deserts could be their high ground, commissaries, weapons and fuel depot, and so on. And as they have had twenty-five years to create and stock a complex, under the radar, anything is possible. Look to the Afghan cave complexes f and Saddam's desert bunkers for the models.

I hope that someone in the military with at least half a brain has considered this possiblity.

Posted by: epg at November 7, 2004 7:46 AM

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=10315&TagID=1#

The republican system in Turkey shall be removed by the will of Allah, and it will be replaced by the Khilafah Rashidah

uploaded 06 Nov 2004

On the 29th October of every year the people remember the same day long ago in 1923, the day in which the Turkish Republic was founded. We say again that the republican system is a product of disbelieving western thought. It has no relation with Islam. Those who claim the republic comes from Islam, through deduction from the rules of election and shura (consultation) are either in manifest error or they are agents of the disbelieving west. Accordingly, it is haram for Muslims to rejoice or celebrate such a memory. We will continue, with the will of Allah, to reveal the error, falsehood and true nature of the Turkish republic, which is based on a system of kufr. We will continue to do this as we have done before and remind the people that celebration of its foundation is prohibited, and we will continue to repeat this until we witness its destruction.

It is no secret that the republican system is a product of the European civilization which is a civilization of kufr. It is the Europeans who first implemented democracy, secularism and republics; three satanic ideas invented to deliver them from the oppression of the Dark Ages, during which they sank in the mire. Ironically there is no great difference between the Dark Ages and the new systems they invented. At the time they thought themselves liberated by these systems, yet they filled the world with strife, wars, oppression and persecution. They filled Muslim land, as well as their own land and that of others with lakes of blood and tears. The republican system in Turkey continues to retract the people daily and drag them further into the depths of the abyss. Through their entire history, the people of Turkey have never reached the decline they have reached today-a total decline at a political, economic, social, cultural and moral level.

Since the republic was founded, it has been in continuous and unavoidable struggle with Islam. The secular rulers and army generals together with the bureaucracy of the government in Turkey continue their atmosphere of enmity and aggression against Islam and Muslims.

With regards to the current government of the Justice and Development Party, it is the same as the governments that came and went in the past 80 years. This government, like the previous ones, adopts with fortitude and sincerity the satanic, historic goals defined by the republic to each successive government.

They try to achieve these goals by selling the country to the disbelievers of Europe and to the Americans, until we are reduced to the state of a beggar at the gates of the disbelievers, gates at which we implore them like besotted doters to accept us in their E.U. It is through so-called religious dialogue they have equated between Islam and the distorted religions of kufr. It is through man-made laws, which they enact detached from the commands of Allah that they implement the historic goals of the republic. It is through continuous endeavor to distort Islam in compliance with the disbelieving west, under that which they call 'amendment and conciliation reforms' that they try to achieve these goals. It is through following the steps of the previous treacherous governments, by allowing the Jews to have hold over the land and wealth of the country and it is through their continuous deception and flattery of the people by agitating their emotions and tricking them to achieve their personal interests. While they gather at the tables of kuffar, they turn their back to our oppressed Muslim brothers in Iraq, Palestine, Kashmir and elsewhere, who implore for our support with tormented cries.

Oh Muslims!

You are now aware of the following:

The republic is a system of kufr that was created from kufr ideas. It is not as the ministry of religions struggles to force the Imams to say in their speeches; a system of merit and goodness. It is rather one of humiliation, defeat, treachery and depravity.

Despite their claim the republic is built upon the opinion of the majority, it always serves the interest of the minority. How many votes have the rulers of Turkey won to claim they represent the true majority? Was there not only one dictatorial party since the republic was founded in 1923 up until the fifties of the last century? Is it not the same party which killed Muslims through the courts of 'independence'? How does a republican system that was implemented in Turkey by force, suppression and oppression truly represent the majority?

Have not the kuffar make the prime goal of the republic in Turkey to eliminate the roots of Islam and destroy the Islamic Khilafah system? Have not the enemies of Allah and His Messenger eliminated the Khilafah through trickery and design only four months after the republic of Turkey was founded on 29th October 1923 i.e. on 23rd March 1924? Have they not caused the massacre, decline and defeat of Muslims throughout the subsequent 80 years? Are they not associates in all the crimes that took place since that day due to the absence of the Khilafah? Did they not say the day they abolished the Khilafah: 'The Khilafah had been incorporated in the republic; so the Khilafah is abolished'? May Allah [swt] fight them for the lengths they went to in distortion and forgery.

Oh Muslims!

The republic is not your system; it is rather the system and puppet of the kuffar. Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) has utterly forbidden the people to follow their whims, He (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) says:

أَرَأَيْتَ مَنِ اتَّخَذَ إِلَهَهُ هَوَاهُ أَفَأَنتَ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِ وَكِيلاً

"Have you not seen the one that chose his own desire to be his god? Would you then be guardian over him?" [TMQ 25: 43]

Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) has made clear that He and His Messenger are the only source for every thing related to life, in His saying:

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلاَ مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً مُّبِينًا

"It is not fitting for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) have any option in their decision; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in plain error" [TMQ 33: 36].

He (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) also says:

فَلاَ وَرَبِّكَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىَ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يَجِدُواْ فِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِّمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُواْ تَسْلِيمًا

"But no, by your Lord, they will not believe (in truth) until they make you judge of that which is in dispute between them, and find within themselves no dislike of that which you decided, and submit with full submission" [TMQ 4:65].

Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) says regarding most of mankind:

وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الأرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ

"If you obeyed most of those on earth they would mislead you far from the path of Allah" [TMQ 6: 116].

In light of all this we have mentioned, is it allowed to celebrate the memory of the ruinous republican system as if it were 'eid? 'Eid ul-fitr and 'eid ul-adha are the only days which the people should regard as auspicious, happy and blessed. What has this republic provided, since the black day of its inception and through all of its history until today, to the people of Turkey, to their values, to their resources and convictions, that they celebrate it as if it were 'eid? Do the people of this country love their claims; that it is good that we have democracy? That it is good there is a republic? That we would be lost, if there were no secularism? Is that the reason they celebrate this day?

Instead we ask; has the Khilafah been established? Has the Islamic ruling system been implemented? Has our resolve been motivated to help our Muslim brothers who suffer thorough massacre and murder? Has the Islamic da'wah started to be carried to the world by call and Jihad? Is that the reason they celebrate this day? If none of this has come to pass, then what memory are they celebrating?

What they celebrate is the 'eid of the enemies of Islam, and the 'eid of the hypocrites who flatter them to become rich, and revolve around them to become tyrants. It is these hypocrites whose hands soil the wealth and resource of this country, and consider them as mere spoils. They have taken these with the support of disbelieving colonialists who propagate the kufr ideas of secularism, democracy and republic inside this country. To celebrating such an 'eid as this, is to prescribe to their values and standards; values and standards which disagree with our own.

There are only two holidays for the Muslims, which are 'eid ul-fitr and 'eid ul-adha. Muslims have no 'eid other than these two. When the Messenger of Allah (saw) arrived in Madinah he found the people there celebrating two days as 'eid. So, he said:

«لقد أبدلكم الله تعالى بهما خيراً منهما، يوم الفطر والأضحى»

"Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) has compensated you by two other better days: the day of fitr (breakfast) and the day of adha (slaughter)."

Therefore, the 'eid of republic is a jahily (pagan) one. It is prohibited for Muslims to celebrate it. The fault and corruption of the republic becomes obvious from an intellectual aspect. From a political aspect, it serves the disbelieving colonialists alone. From a legal (shar'i) aspect, it is a system of kufr. It is only the stubborn, arrogant and fanatical people, akin to the polytheists of Makkah, who are left to defend the republic.

Oh Muslims!

Be assured that the black dress of the republic will be removed from you, by the will of Allah. The clouds of oppression, misguidance and treachery will with a surety disappear, and their evil rains will cease and dry. The State of the Khilafah Rashidah, based on the model of Prophethood will return soon. This is because it is a promise from Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) and the good news of His Messenger, may Allah send peace upon him and his family. Allah does not fail to make His promise, and the Messenger of Allah does not err.

Hizb ut-Tahrir calls upon you again in the blessed month of Ramadhan to work with it and support it. Dear brothers, let this Ramadhan be the last Ramadhan that comes to us while we squat under the arms of secular and kufr systems, and where the world suffers the stench of rotten capitalism, Muslim blood is shed in their own lands, their honour is crushed in it, and the echo of their cries fill the sky with pain. Let the republic make its way to hell. Discard it into the black dustbin of history. Let us establish the State of the Khilafah Rashidah as soon as can be, by the will of Allah. Indeed this is not difficult for Allah.

لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ مِن قَبْلُ وَمِن بَعْدُ وَيَوْمَئِذٍ يَفْرَحُ الْمُؤْمِنُون بِنَصْرِ اللَّهِ يَنصُرُ مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ

"Command is for Allah, in the former case and in the latter. And in that day, believers will rejoice the help of Allah to victory. He helps to victory whom He wills. He is the Mighty, the Merciful" [TMQ 30: 4-5].

11 Ramadan 1425
25th October, 2004

Hizb ut-Tahrir - Wilayah of Turkey

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at November 7, 2004 7:47 AM

AM YISRAEL CHAI
YWKH AKBAR

Posted by: Chuck at November 7, 2004 9:09 AM

Whoever said words to the effect that our Constitution is not a suicide pact, got the point correctly. Our softness toward Islam and Muslims has attracted the worst to us like flies to a rotting corpse. We are letting these sand savages do this to us as a nation by our "tolerance," which THEY HAVE NONE OF. We must stop all legal immigration of them, purge the ones we have (legally), and seal the borders to them. They intend to kill us, and those they do not kill, they want to maim and enslave. What "authorizes" them is ISLAM, not some "radical Islam," just ISLAM. Leaving them here and tolerating them is like leaving a fatal but curable illness untreated in your body.

Posted by: George Mason at November 7, 2004 9:14 AM

I hope Bush takes this on properly in his second term. I hope he does it the right way, but I hope he raises the issue that the root to most terror problems in the world begins with Islam.

Moose

Posted by: Moose at November 7, 2004 11:14 AM

There are propositions being heard with regard to these rodents slithering across the border from Mexico.

F.A.I.R. The Federation for American immigration Reform, based in Washington is hard at work with regard to amendments being passed. I'm attaching a few options for everyone here to get involved with this. Our nation depends on it.

In a rush to pass the 9/11 Recommendations Implementation bill before the elections, House and Senate conferees might drop the immigration provisions.

Today, we ask that you call four targeted conferees. These conferees have been the most vocal in their opposition or support for the immigration provisions.

If you are a constituent, say so when calling. If they ask and you are not, say that you are calling because this decision has enormous national consequences and that this legislation affects you as well as their constituents.

Action Needed:
Please call Senators Susan Collins (R-ME) and Joe Lieberman (D-CT) and leave the following message:
"My name is (insert name). This call is in reference to the conference on S. 2845 and H.R.10. I'm calling to urge the Senator to include the identification security and immigration enforcement provisions in the final bill to implement the 9/11 commission recommendations. Anything less is only a half measure to protect homeland security. It will be years before we see any positive results from merely rearranging the intelligence community. If the identification security and immigration enforcement provisions are included, the nation will see immediate protection from terrorists."

Please call Representatives Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) and Peter Hoekstra (R-MI) and leave the following message:
"My name is (insert name). This call is in reference to the conference on H.R.10 and S. 2845. I'm calling to thank the representative for holding the line against those who seek to drop the critically important identification security and immigration enforcement provisions from the final bill. Please continue to oppose any efforts to bring legislation to the floor that does not include these much needed provisions. It will be years before we see any positive results from merely rearranging the intelligence community. If the identification security and immigration enforcement provisions are included, the nation will see immediate protection from terrorists."

Contact Information:
Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) - (Vocal opponent of immigration provisions.)
D.C. Phone: (202) 224-2523
District Phone: (207) 945-0417

Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-CT) - (Vocal opponent of immigration provisions.)
D.C. Phone: (202) 224-4041
District Phone: (860) 549-8463

Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner (R-WI) - (Vocal proponent of immigration provisions.)
D.C. Phone: (202) 225-5101
District Phone: (262) 784-1111

Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI) - (Vocal proponent of immigration provisions.)
D.C. Phone: (202) 225-4401
District Phone: (616) 395-0030

Status of Conference:
The conferees, unable to come to a consensus last week, are still deliberating. House rules require Speaker Hastert to give 72 hours notice during recess before a House vote and Majority Leader Frist has promised his colleagues 72 hours to review the final agreement before putting it on the floor. With the elections vastly approaching, we expect a decision to be made by the end of the day. The conferees will either decide on a final bill or will postpone consideration until the lame duck period after the elections.
We have heard that they are focusing first on reaching an agreement over the intelligence section of the bill. If they reach agreement on intelligence, the threat is that they will take up the bill on Friday in an effort to reach agreement before the elections - leaving the immigration provisions hanging out to dry.

Tell the targeted conferees that no bill is doing enough to protect the nation from terrorists if it doesn't include the identification security and immigration enforcement provisions.

FAIR's # is (202) 328-7004. Please make your presence known.

D.C.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 7, 2004 11:38 AM

The devil! Tuscon is one of my favorite cities. I went walking in the desert without any water when I was there. Topped that off with a few drinks at the American Legion there.

Now. How do we go about making ICT feel unwelcome there?

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 11:39 AM

GUYS:

STOP ENGAGING THE MUSLIM TROLL ("hatshepsut", from other threads). If it were truly here to merely "observe" it could do that aplenty without serving as an agent provocateur. Don't encourage it, and it will go the way of all the other failed posers . . .

It's new tactic will be to simply pose questions. DON'T FEED THE MUSLIM TROLLS.

Posted by: CGW at November 7, 2004 11:39 AM

Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:

In the past 6 months:

1) I have come in contact with arabs or muslims in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
(y / n)

2) engaged muslims or arabs in a face to face dialogue about Islam.

3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam

4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions

5) watched a television documentary about Islam

6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local mosque

7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue

8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Islam

9) come in contact with arabs or muslims in the course of my daily affairs

10) befriended at least one arab or muslim in the course of my daily affairs

Thank you for your comments.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 11:40 AM

DC Watson, your strategy addresses ways to deter immigration of muslims to the U.S.

What strategy do you propose to deter U.S. citizens from converting to Islam? The majority of muslims in the U.S. are converts.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 11:42 AM

**ALERT**

This may be the wrong thread to bring this up, but so be it...Rumors are rampant that Arafat is dying of AIDS.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/4348.htm

"We know he has a blood disease that is depressing his immune system. We know that he has suddenly dropped considerable weight -- possibly as much as one-third of all his body weight. We know that he is suffering intermittent mental dysfunction. What does this sound like?"

Earlier, John Loftus told John Batchelor on ABC radio on October 26 that Arafat is dying from AIDS. Loftus said the CIA has known this about Arafat for quite awhile and that as a result the US has encouraged Sharon not to take Arafat out because the US has known Arafat was about done. It was deemed better to have Arafat discredited as a homosexual.

Although homosexuality is rife in the Arab world, it is at least officially considered a sin and a crime, and regarded--especially in fundamentalist circles--as a mark of great shame and depravity."

"I began to see tell tale signs of kaposis sarcoma. His Parkinsonian tremor was more than just a Parkinsonian tremor and he was also showing signs of weakness. The rumor about homosexuality/bisexuality has been around for decades. So I put two and two together when they started talking about his health over a year ago. The talk of a mysterious illness in this day and age should be a tip-off. He has some of the best physicians in the world attending to him. He can be diagnosed clinically, without perfoming any tests. All the doctors surrounding him know what he has. All this cloak and dagger about tests is a ruse. They understand the implications of divulging that he has HIV. If I were Suha I would be getting a little concerned."

Wow, I wonder if this will pick up some attention in the mainstream media.

Moose

Posted by: Moose at November 7, 2004 11:43 AM

Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:

In the past 6 months:

1) I have come in contact with arabs or muslims in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
(y / n)

2) engaged muslims or arabs in a face to face dialogue about Islam.

3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam

4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions

5) watched a television documentary about Islam

6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local mosque

7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue

8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Islam

9) come in contact with arabs or muslims in the course of my daily affairs

10) befriended at least one arab or muslim in the course of my daily affairs

Thank you for your comments.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 11:48 AM

Until all Muslims in the USA are rounded up and interred, this country will not be safe from terrorism. It's as simple as that. However, that is not the only step we need to take. We also need to round up and interr, indefinetely, ALL Muslim non-citizens; close all Mosques; close ALL Islamic charities; close ALL Islamic cultural and student organizations; close the embassies of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan, Lebanon; and seal our borders.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 7, 2004 11:49 AM

If you do not want to post your answers here, please email your responses to info@amwanet.org

All replies will be answered. These survey questions will be posted in other forums and similar web logs for response.

Thank you for your participation.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 11:49 AM

So far, I've identified several personality typologies in this group. I don't want to offend any one with scientific jargon that might sound demeaning, so I will only mention the positive ones that have been identified.

There is a clear distinction emerging here between those who have been influenced by the perceptions of others and have used inductive reasoning, as opposed to those who have used deductive reasoning to form their conclusions.

The "inducers" as I will call them have reached one set of conclusions, and the "deducers" have reached a similar set of conclusions but are have not closed the process to new information as it becomes available.

The "inducers" try to use intimidation and threats to keep the group solidified along the boundaries of the conclusions they have reached from induction.

The "deducers" are will to engage in dialogue, but with a clear cohort bias.

What I have not encountered in this forum, which may be expected, is anyone that is brave enough to ask "why", to look deeply in the reality of your perceptions.

This might be a lofty expectation, but I would expect it, especially in the comfortable anonymity of an internet forum. Otherwise, the group is reduced to a gang of like-minded synchronitis autonotrons which leaves no room for debate and reason, and itself is a closed system of logic (the very thing you so decry about Islam). This tactic might be useful if this forum is actually a war room for strategizing against the "enemy".

Some of you seem torn between who and what is the "enemy". Some said it is Islam, others said it is radical muslims, other said it is the foreign jihadists, not just muslims, moderate and radical. Still others believe arab culture and American muslims are the greatest threat.

How do you engage this threat inside as well as outside U.S. borders?

1) psychosocial culturalist
2) paranoid psychosocialist
3) latent soci

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:08 PM

Gary says:

"Now. How do we go about making ICT feel unwelcome there?"

It may be a drawn out process. You might pretend to be interested in embracing Islam as a means of infiltrating it. That way you can attend mosque and see what's said in the sermon. We need to be sleeper's sitting in their midst so we can pounce when the time is right.

Sounds rather distasteful, doesn't it?

Posted by: Kemaste at November 7, 2004 12:10 PM

Maybe Michael Moore's FRNHT/911 was right to critize Bush for not rounding up all Arabs and Muslims after 9/11 so they couldn't be "Allowed"
to leave in planes on 9/13/01 .
If you also look at the 93 percent of Muslims that backed Kerry and the CAIR survey that showed about 35 percent of Muslims in America think Bush is at war with Islam,it appears those Family-values Christians understand the Islamic threat to their kids future of having a family to learn family-values.

I really don't care anymore if Muslims dislike me,that's not my purpose on Earth to placate the paranoid followers of Islam that want to kill me for what they think I might do in the future.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 7, 2004 12:20 PM

hatshepsut,

A little background before I answer your list of questions: I have been working in Saudi Arabia for the past six years, so I have seen the Muslim in his native habitat. Since I work directly with Saudis, I come in direct contact with the results of their mostly abysmal education system. I will also admit that since Westerners have been randomly targeted for shootings, kidnappings, and beheadings recently, I am not feeling particularly charitable toward members of the Religion of Peace.

So on to your list of questions.

1. Yes
2. No. You cannot discuss religion there. All I would have to do is say something that anyone could perceive as "disrespectful toward Islam" and I could be - if lucky - expelled, or if unlucky, jailed for several months, then expelled. As a Western, I probaly would not be beaten and tortured.
3. No. No churches in Saudi Arabia.
4. No. No churches, temples, or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.
5. Yes. History Channel did a show on the life of Mohammed. Watched half of it - terribly hagiographic.
6. No. Saudi Muslims really do not want non-beliver visitors in their mosques. Bahrain, the only other Muslim country with which I have some experience would accept visitors in the past. With the current attitudes in the Middle East, I would rather go to the zoo and poke a lion with a sharp stick. Lions do not behead their victims. They just kill and eat them.
7. No. No synagogues in Saudi Arabia.
8. No.
9. Yes.
10. I do not know if I have befriended a Saudi. Consider what the Qur'an says about friendship between a Muslim and a nonbeliever.

Posted by: jay at November 7, 2004 12:22 PM

Ala-sux, you believe all muslims, or just all arabs, or both, want to kill you?

Sir?

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:26 PM

hatshepsut:

Have I ever attempted to enter into a dialogue with a Muslim?

Yes, once, when attending a festive dinner with my co-workers, I noted that a Muslim woman (ethnic Pakistani) known to be devote was ordering shellfish for her lunch.

Having the understanding that there are some similarities between Kosher laws and Hallal, I asked her about her choice. Her response: "We look at what the Jews do, then we do the opposite." Then she realized who she was talking to and looked a bit embarrassed, but did not apologize.

Yet, this woman is actually a nice person and, although we no longer work at the same company, we do keep in touch and exchange greetings from time to time. I harbour no hostility towards people of different religious persuasions and judge their worth by their humanity. I hope, in that brief exchange, that she learned something a little more positive.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 7, 2004 12:31 PM

waterdragon52,

That cannot be completely true or pork would not be haram.

Posted by: jay at November 7, 2004 12:36 PM

Jay, thanks for your response. I am encouraged by your openness, and if you want to know how you scored, please write me at info@amwanet.org (I don't want to influence the scoring mechanism by publishing it here).

Now, to your comments:

So on to your list of questions.

1. Yes

2. No. You cannot discuss religion there. All I would have to do is say something that anyone could perceive as "disrespectful toward Islam" and I could be - if lucky - expelled, or if unlucky, jailed for several months, then expelled. As a Western, I probaly would not be beaten and tortured.

Your concerns regarding the situation in Saudia are accurate. It is a distasteful situation and one that muslims, not non-muslims, should address. The situation for women in particularly is outside of the foundation of Islam, though they indeed proport to be the world-wide islamic authority.

You must understand what you see is the disciple of Abdul Wahab, a bedoiun arab who made a pact with Ibn Saud when the bedoiun tribes of Saudia were still operatinig as ruthless chiefdoms. Abdul Wahab advocated the create of a purist islamic school of thought, which is today called "wahhabism". This culture of Saudia is based on "wahhabism" not traditional Islam.

That being said, everything you saw in Saudia is a reflection of wahhabi culture and cannot be ascribed only to the interpretation of islamic doctrine... kind of like catholic v. protestant. Christian no less, but different interpretations of the same teachings.

3. No. No churches in Saudi Arabia.

You are right, or in Brunei, or other countries that have it as part of the system of government. Islam originated in the Arabian peninsula, current-day Saudia, and has a mandate to maintain its purity in the precincts of the two holy mosques (Mecca and the Prophet's Mosque in Medina). Should there be churces in Saudia? I don't know. Could non-muslims entere Mecca? That is prohibited.

4. No. No churches, temples, or synagogues in
Saudi Arabia.

(see my other comment)

5. Yes. History Channel did a show on the life of Mohammed. Watched half of it - terribly hagiographic. (this is typical, or was it hagiographic because it eliminated cohort bias?)

6. No. Saudi Muslims really do not want non-beliver visitors in their mosques. Bahrain, the only other Muslim country with which I have some experience would accept visitors in the past. With the current attitudes in the Middle East, I would rather go to the zoo and poke a lion with a sharp stick. Lions do not behead their victims. They just kill and eat them.

(Beheading, developed by french scientist Gillotine, was once perceived as a "human method of execution", fyi. Tensions are running high now in the middle east because diplomacy has been abandoned. I'm sorry you have not had the opportunity to enjoy traditional arab and muslim hospitality, which is normally quite gracious).

7. No. No synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

8. No.

9. Yes.

10. I do not know if I have befriended a Saudi. Consider what the Qur'an says about friendship between a Muslim and a nonbeliever. (the quran says "take not the non believer as "awliyyah" protectors... it also says do not choose friendship with a non-believer over a muslim" but all said in the context of conflicts and battles confront Muhammad and his followers at specific points in time. This was not a sweeing generalization.)

Thanks for your reply.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:39 PM

Pork is haraam for jews and muslims. Pork and alcohol became prohibited to muslims after the revelation of Jesus and the coming of Muhammad.

The chronology is important.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:40 PM

Waterdragon thank you for your response:

Have I ever attempted to enter into a dialogue with a Muslim?

Yes, once, when attending a festive dinner with my co-workers, I noted that a Muslim woman (ethnic Pakistani) known to be devote was ordering shellfish for her lunch.

Having the understanding that there are some similarities between Kosher laws and Hallal, I asked her about her choice. Her response: "We look at what the Jews do, then we do the opposite." Then she realized who she was talking to and looked a bit embarrassed, but did not apologize.

Well, Waterdragon, the woman used a poor analogy to explain her choice. What she was trying to say to you is that muslims during the time of Muhammad were commanded to appear different and distinct from the jews and muslims. In other words, if jews grew tedrils and long hair, the muslim must not. If jews grew long beards, the muslim must shorten his beard. The point here is to distinct in appearance from other religious groups.

She should have been embarrased by her answer, as it was inappropriate given the question. To illustrate this point, muslims may eat the food of the jews, the food that is kosher. That is in direct contradiction to what the woman tried to tell you was her choice of shellfish.

Now, take note. You now have at least two practical examples of a muslim criticizing the behavior of another muslim.

There is a well known islamic saying that has been authenticated through the chain of translators that a woman once challenged a ruling of the second successor to Muhammad, Umar Ibn Khattab. She was acknowledged and listened, and the caliph admitted his error publically.

Another salient example.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:47 PM

Yes,all the "paranoid followers of Islam"
do want me dead,and I can see how people like you
develope a paranoia from not reading in the proper text of a statement.
You appear bend on seeing everyone as being against you and assume any opinion different from
your version of reality is a threat to all you believed as the truth,this creates a closed mind and also explains why Islamic Countries don't produce cars ,airplanes,computers,spaceships
that's the norm now,TV's,radio's,nobel prize winners,higher human rights standards,female engineers,and the list goes on.

There is a reason why so many Muslims have to flee to Christian countries to get the freedoms
professed in the Quran,accept it,you'll sleep better and realize there's more to life than
reflecting back on who's responsible for past wrongs against "YOUR" people.
Lifes not about you,and that's why so many of us no longer listen to the whines for Muslims that play the victim and fabricate claims of Islamophobia and anti-Islamic societies.

kNOw HislamB

KNOW PEACE

Posted by: ala-sux at November 7, 2004 12:48 PM

JWers:

Why are you allowing a muslim troll who is consistently OT to dominate this (and other) threads?

Posted by: CGW at November 7, 2004 12:53 PM

Ala-Sux, sir, I don't know you and value your life as a human life. So your theory is invalidated. And I suffer from no paranoia, but I'm sorry, it seems you do.

You also seem to be doing a lot of projection of your feelings and fears onto others, evidenced by your statements.

You, unfortunately, also do not seem to understand global economies of scale.. that Libya and other countries have indeed produced airplanes and cars, but is there an open market for these commodoties? Economies of scale, Ala-Sux.

I'm trying to understand what you are trying to say, so I am listening.

Consider that fact that many christians leave christianity and convert to Islam. Such people know the story about HislamB and have chosen a different spiritual route.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:54 PM

CGW, you appear to be a "inducer". Would you care to answer the survey questions?

Thanks.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 12:56 PM

CGW, sir, here are the questions if you would oblige me:

Questions that I would sincerely appreciate if some of you would kindly answer:

In the past 6 months:

1) I have come in contact with arabs or muslims in my workplace, place of worship, or neighborhood.
(y / n)

2) engaged muslims or arabs in a face to face dialogue about Islam.

3) attended a lecture at a church which discussed Islam

4) attended an interfaith discussion about Islam and other religions

5) watched a television documentary about Islam

6) physically attended a lecture or service at a local mosque

7) physically attended a lecture or service at a local synagogue

8) attended a lecture at a local college or university about Islam

9) come in contact with arabs or muslims in the course of my daily affairs

10) befriended at least one arab or muslim in the course of my daily affairs

Thank you for your comments.

If you do not want to post your answers to the 10 survey questions here, please email them to me at info@amwanet.org

All replies will be answered. These survey questions will be posted in other similar forums and web logs.

Thank you for your participation.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 1:01 PM

Anyone who chooses to answer this moron, remember:

He is trying to classify what kind of Hate you suffer from. Which is an Outright LIE about YOU.

He is totally bogus. Why do you keep bothering with him? So he can make a report to post on islamic hate sites around the world?

Don't let this bastard get away with an attempt to discredit. Think!

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 1:23 PM

Remember: scum like hateshutup are the same kind who worked to dehumanize people in Nazi Germany, prior to the slaughter.

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 1:32 PM

I am not intimidated by nazi scum like you. One must warn against people who attempt to dehumanize the rest of the world, however. And that is the last I shall speak to you.

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 1:44 PM

Folks, CGW and Gary are right. The troll known as Hatshepsut is here for the sole purpose of provoking responses he/she/it can copy and post to Islamist websites as "proof" that Jihadwatch is some sort of "hate forum."

DO NOT ENGAGE this individual in any way, because anything you say is going to be taken out of context and used to attack the credibility of this site, Robert Spencer, and the anti-Jihad movement.

Posted by: lobo91 at November 7, 2004 1:51 PM

Thank you, Lobo. And here is a bit of backup to what I am saying:

http://www.geocities.com/savepenry/nazi.html

This person is attempting to use the same methods.

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 1:56 PM

Does it really hurt that much to just answer 10 simple questions?

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 1:59 PM

No one is attacking the credibility of this site. I'm rather glad it's here and I applaud Robert Spencer for what he's trying to do. He should be concerned about the security of his country.

However, there are those here that have other motives who run the gammit of hatred. That is ripe and fertile for my area of research

Also, I'd like the links to some of the jihadist sites you reference so I can include them in my research as well.

"Fear nothing but fear itself" was once quoted by a great stateman. It is amptly appropriate here.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 2:02 PM

Facts, Isshaytun,

FACT: The law of the times during the time of Muhammad placed no restriction on the number of wives a man could take, even to the degree of marrying both mother and daughter... this is fact. Islam restricted that number to 4 maximum and placed criteria on which women could be married to the same man (not mother and daughter)

FACT: The lawful age for betrothal (not intercourse) in other faiths of the day was 3. Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 5 or 6 and the marriage was consummated according to scholars between the age of 11 and 16. Some girls become pubescent at early as 8. According to the law of the TIMES, not our current law which legalizes sodomy, Muhammad was NOT a pedophile.

FACT: Aisha was the only one of Muhammad's 11 wives that was a VIRGIN. Most of his wives were widowed women that no one would marry and divorcees.

FACT: The concept of polygyny in Islam is not based on sex, it is based on men providing for and taking care of women in their charge. This is why most men have one and only one wife.

FACT: Muhammad was allowed 11 wives. No other muslim was allowed this provision.

FACT: The practice of slave captives as wives, 'amaa, is a practice that predated Islam and like other forms of slavery was tolerated. It became closely regulated after Islam as part of the war booty, female captives would be remanded as 'amaa, lower wives with lower status, but not as beast of the field.

FACT: The taking of 'amaa has since been banned publically in all islamic countries, including Saudia, and is practiced only in the most backwards of places.

The most famous 'amaa (consort), Roxelana, was the wife of Sulaiman the Maginificient, the 16th century Ottomon regent. She wielded so much power in the harram of Sulaiman that he married her and made her his queen (consider her "slavery" in context with that of Sally Heming) She beget him two sons, through whom she continued to wield enormous influence over the kingdom, some saying driving Sulaiman to insane fits of paranoia in fear of being murdered by them, leading to the decline of the empire.

FACT: The bible did not abolish slavery. Rather different interpretations of the bible, which is the word of God, were used to condone slavery for 400 years. Different interpretations of the bible claim that non-whites must be servants to whites because they are the descendents of Ham, who laughed at the genitals of his drunken, naked father.

FACT: Only in the quran do you see God rewarding the one who frees a slave. This is an incentive to abolish slavery. Is there such an injuction in the bible?

What kind of cruel God tolerates slavery? A merciful and forgiving God who is waiting on HUMANITY to get it right and act as brothers.

The quran, not the english Koran, is a book that must be read in context, not written in the same tense or verse as the bible. This is the source of much confusion for non-muslims.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 2:44 PM

'Now. How do we go about making ICT feel unwelcome there?'
Posted by: Gary

When our news media finally gets on the ball and does some real investigative journalism then Americans will wake up, maybe they will stand out in front of there local mosque and protest the hate that Moslems practice and Islam teaches. Overwhelming public pressure will surely be the only way that America can deal with the tyranny of Mohammadanism.

The hypersensitive Moslems would absolutely go insane, even the moderate Moslems hate would surface instantaneously. This would make even better news.

Every mosque in America should be under intense local media pressure, giving interviews, answering hard questions, letting the American public into the mosque every Friday. Tv programs should abound about Islam and the way Moslems treat Jews and Christians. Documentaries should be made about Moslem Terrorist and their effects on Israel and America. Sharia Law should be exposed, and the Moslems intent to subject all to it as part of their sociopathic ideology.

Expose the good works of the Moslem. Like the Palestinian children shows, those oh so loving cartons about the Jews. Expose the Qur'an.

May the world wake up to the hate of Islam and the tyranny of Mohammadanism.

Posted by: Bar at November 7, 2004 3:00 PM

The quran, not the english Koran, is a book that must be read in context, not written in the same tense or verse as the bible. This is the source of much confusion for non-muslims.
Posted by: hatshepsut

BS... How many Moslems are converted to Mohammadanism from a non arabic Qur'an..

They lie so easy and so bad!!!!!

Look the real Qur'an before it was corrupted..

“Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped on the Moslems and they were visited with wrath.”

“Or it be among the Moslems, men who will listen to any lie. They change the context of the words from their (right) times and places.... For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

Say: ‘People of the Islam! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Jesus, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?’ Say: ‘Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Jesus? Those who incurred the curse of Jesus and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine.”

Posted by: Bar at November 7, 2004 3:08 PM

Bar, I think you are trying to make a point and I'm listening. You seem to want to discuss religion, outside of the scope of my inquiry, but post whatever it is you are trying to discuss, this passage you say is from the "real" quran, and I will respond.

Also, most of the 6 million muslim in the U.S. are converts who learned Islam from an english translation of the arabic text. So your assumption was not correct.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 3:15 PM

Bar, I can also tell you conclusively that events of today in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East were foretold in revelations and vision to Muhammad 1,400 years ago. These events are well documented which account for such much apathy and docility in the majority of the muslim world today.. i.e., most muslim call this the "divine decree" of what God has willed will happen. Because so many events revealed to Muhammad and related to his followers have indeed come true, most are waiting now to see the rest of the prophecy fulfilled.

It is for this reason that many live in fear an trepidation of what God has promised will occur in the coming days. Most are in no hurry at all to see it all revealed as it will be beyond horrors as must minds have been able to comprehend.

This is also why many consider Islam to be the "doomsday religion" because of these terrible prophecies, but the reality is many have come true.

You mentioned a passage in the quran about the humiliation of the muslims. This, too, was prophesized, as well as what is currently happening in Iraq. But there are still more prophecies, Bar.

So, ultimately, you are correct that the fate of the muslims today is largely due to their own actions, but in a totally different perspective, from a socioreligious perspective. Because of this, you will see emerging soon a different kind of muslim, one that will appear even stranger, and even more distant and foreign to you that what you have grown accustomed. These are the "ghuraba'a" the strangers, and that is yet another story.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 3:20 PM

You all probably know this, but it might not be a good idea to reply offlist to hatshepsut's email address if you don't use an anonymizer of some sort. As for those questioanires, why waste our time answering questions which will only be used to help them understand us so that in the future it will be more difficult for us to pick out the trolls?

Hatshepsut's native language is not English, btw...

Posted by: libbysmom at November 7, 2004 3:31 PM

Gray

I think another peaceful way to protest any new mosque being built in America, is to show up at the local city council meetings and protest a center of hate being built in your neighborhood. This should also be done with any new Islamic schools. There is plenty of documentation to prove a very strong case of indoctrinated hate in Islam.
What city in America would want a center of hate = mosque?

Posted by: Bar at November 7, 2004 3:31 PM

Well, Bar, it's been done countless times.

I see you choose not to answer the survey, but I would suggest you find the courage to go to your local mosque on Friday and attend the Friday prayer services. Listen to what the imam says, see how you are treated as a guest. Repeat this experience at least 4 times to form a good consensus. Schecule a meeting with the local public affairs committe or imam and ask all your questions.

Then, see if your feel justify in your perception of hate. I think you will find the contrary, 99% of the time, and I think you are projecting.

Not having attending a church in the heartland in many years, I believe you are projecting, describing what you "think" happens at a mosque because of what you hear in your churches. I wonder, if I attended any of these bible-thumping churces, especially of the Falwell/Robertson variety, if I would hear hate-speech about Islam and muslims.

Based on what I've seen televised from Robertson and Falwell, I believe the answer is yes. So I understand why you believe hatred is being taught at mosque and in islamic schools.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 3:56 PM

Wrong again, Libbysmom. I will not conform to your reality and your stereotype. My native language is english... sorry, no prize. BUT I type fastest than I can structure sentences and words sometimes, hence you flawed assumption. Nice try.

And if you don't want to answer the questions, you still prove another of my theories.. that this is a closed system and not open to new facts and information. Therefore, you are no different from the islamist you claim to hate.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 3:59 PM

Folks - the thread is NOT FOR research so that Hatsheput can post the results of his research on other threads or for the purpose of writing a doctoral thesis, the topic at hand is

"...the most important nexus for international jihad outside of Pakistan and the Middle East.

Hatsheput is engaged in the kitman topic of changing the subject and has been allowed to engage and dominate. Please don't give him further opportunities to continue.

Posted by: epg at November 7, 2004 4:00 PM

.. and Libbysmom, many have replied offline by email, because they are not autonotrons, and you are not a svengali.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 4:00 PM

To any and all posters at Jihad Watch:

Not that you asked, but I don't think you or anyone else should answer this person "Hatshepsut." To do so is to allow him or her to put you on trial, thus shifting the focus away from the global jihad.

Another Muslim, Chan'ad Bahraini, recently asked me all sorts of questions about where I have been in the Middle East, what languages I speak, etc. I suspected that any answer I gave him, he would use for his own purposes, so I declined to answer (whereupon, of course, he used that). But it is a digression: this site, and the anti-jihad effort in general, is not about me. It is not based on where I have been, or what I know or don't know. It is meant to draw attention to the manifest activity of Islamic jihadists, and the ways they use Islamic texts to justify themselves and recruit. Those activities are a fact regardless of who I am.

The moral of the story: don't let attention be diverted away from the jihad.

There have been occasionally some posters here who are over the top, and I have consistently stated that those who call for genocide, nuking Mecca, etc., are not welcome here. However,
"Hatshepsut" is a deluded individual who believes that to resist violent jihad is racism (despite the ideological character of the conflict, transcending all races), that Jews perpetrated 9/11 (despite Osama's avowal that he did it), and that apparently any anti-jihad sentiment is "hate" (despite the fact that it is not Western non-Muslims who are perpetrating religious violence around the globe).

Just don't answer. This site is not about you and how many Muslims you had lunch with. This site is about the global jihad, which continues despite "Hatshepsut's" efforts to divert attention away from it.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 7, 2004 4:02 PM

I accept the reprimand, epg, as a guest. Please do proceed.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 4:05 PM

Spencer, I agree with most of your comments in the free public space of this forum, except your far-reaching conclusions in the end about my "delusions" (I believe that was your quote).

I applauded you for your efforts to create this site... as an American concerned for his country.

I noted there are those in this site who have other neferious motives, including genocide of all muslims.

I encourage you to more diligently redress such comments, less it be inferred that you condone these comments. Minimally, you should delete them from your site to maintain its character.

Lastly, again, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. There is no harm in asking a few honest questions if you have nothing to hide. Isn't what is being said to arab and muslims in America?

Enter the double standard, and thanks for listening.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 4:10 PM

And.. thanks to all of you brave enough to take the time to answer those few simple questions. It has helped me invaluably with my research.

There may be hope yet for America.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 4:12 PM

hatshepsut:

Why don't you answer my questions?

Violence: Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians? Will you condemn by name as terrorist groups such organizations as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Groupe Islamique Armée, Hamas, Harakat ul-Mujahidin, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, and al-Qaida?

Modernity: Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (for example, in inheritance shares or court testimony)? Is jihad, meaning a form of warfare, acceptable in today's world? Do you accept the validity of other religions? Do Muslims have anything to learn from the West?

Secularism: Should non-Muslims enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims? May Muslims convert to other religions? May Muslim women marry non-Muslim men? Do you accept the laws of a majority non-Muslim government and unreservedly pledge allegiance to that government? Should the state impose religious observance, such as banning food service during Ramadan? When Islamic customs conflict with secular laws (e.g., covering the face for drivers' license pictures), which should give way?

Islamic pluralism: Are Sufis and Shi'ites fully legitimate Muslims? Do you see Muslims who disagree with you as having fallen into unbelief? Is takfir (condemning fellow Muslims with whom one has disagreements as unbelievers) an acceptable practice?

Self-criticism: Do you accept the legitimacy of scholarly inquiry into the origins of Islam? Who was responsible for the 9/11 suicide hijackings?

Defense against militant Islam: Do you accept enhanced security measures to fight militant Islam, even if this means extra scrutiny of yourself (for example, at airline security)? Do you agree that institutions accused of funding terrorism should be shut down, or do you see this a symptom of bias?

Goals in the West: Do you accept that Western countries are majority-Christian and secular or do you seek to transform them into majority-Muslim countries ruled by Islamic law?

(These questions are from an essay by Daniel Pipes entitled, Do You Believe in Modernity?)

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1322

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at November 7, 2004 4:49 PM

Odd...hatesheput doesn't want to answer Juan's questions. I suppose if he/she had, I might be able to say there was some hope for islam. Regrettably, this does not appear to be so.

It's odd that some people feel they can interject into debates when they have no objective basis for doing so. One would, in fact, be forced to ask how exactly these questions could possibly relate to any prior hypothesis. Is the "objective" to "prove" bias? Frankly my interpretation is that the questions are not really representable as any kind of legitimate hypothesis, and would not certainly not be sufficient fodder for the defense of a thesis - then again, there is considerable variance among social sciences 'schools', so this cannot be a completely certain point. Some such departments are certainly more forgiving to their students, at least in certain cases. Pity does move mountains.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 7, 2004 5:10 PM

You know, pity does indeed move mountains. I'll answer the survey.

Basically yes to all of the above. I note that 2, 9 and 10 represent misleading points since they refer to arabs AND/OR muslims. I cannot say if the questions were deliberately posed in a misleading fashion, of course. In a side-note, muslims tend to become enraged, in my experience, in response to 2.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 7, 2004 5:16 PM

"It is for this reason that many live in fear an trepidation of what God has promised will occur in the coming days. Most are in no hurry at all to see it all revealed as it will be beyond horrors as must minds have been able to comprehend.

This is also why many consider Islam to be the "doomsday religion" because of these terrible prophecies, but the reality is many have come true."

Anybody know what prophecies he's alluding to?

Should we start building an ark?

Posted by: Benelux at November 7, 2004 5:31 PM

Hatshepsut:

Great jumpin hornytoads! Why did I ever think that you would answer "my" questions?

As Mr. Spencer would put it:

Anti-jihadists: 1 Jihadists: 0

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at November 7, 2004 7:14 PM

'Modernity: Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (for example, in inheritance shares or court testimony)?'
Posted by: Admiral Don Juan

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html

One son and one daughter. 4:11 says that one daughter will get half and a son will get double a daughter's share, which would be everything. 150% of the available property is distributed and we haven't even looked at the parents and spouse yet.

Apparently neither Mohammad or Allah can do simple math?

Posted by: Bar at November 7, 2004 7:26 PM

Now. How do we go about making ICT feel unwelcome there?

Posted by: Gary at November 7, 2004 11:39 AM

All about wild pigs we need more!! Hunt Javailni in the area of the siver bells!!

Get more pigs on the border and someone was talking about the caves of afhgan well their are many in that area??

One reason they have picked Tuson is that is the Lib part of AZ!!

Another reason is becuse of the porx to the border with mexico!! easy to port thing across!!

Get the hunters there more game more rednecks with guns loose!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to Stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Destory the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the World Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 7, 2004 8:07 PM

Who amongst us swallows the taqiyya dished out so copiously here? As to Arizona, which this comments section is about, knowing that the jihadists have infested that state, our anti-terrorist agencies can destroy one of their nests.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at November 7, 2004 8:33 PM

I wonder why we Canadians are not at all that concerned about terrorism. Now don't get me wrong as a freethinking liberal I am disgusted by many of the censory aspects of Islamic culture. But in my opinion it is far better to let them live how they like in their corner/shithole of the world. Osama is not so much interested in destroying the free world as he is in driving "occupiers" from lands he believes he and his religious views are entitled to.

Posted by: OttawaLiberal at November 7, 2004 8:39 PM

Thank you for your comments.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 7, 2004 11:40 AM

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THIS PART OF YOUR BOOK??

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!

Look at saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD]look at Afhgan and now have for the first time ever an elected President ubl[YELLOW COWARS WHO RUNS AWAY] no where to be found didn't stand and fight like he said he would??

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?

Earthquake in Iran kills 30,000 who harbors ubls son and wife’s??

OR THEN THERE IS THIS PART??

Qur’an 9:97 “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger.”

Qur’an 3:60 “The Truth (comes) from Allah alone. So be not of those who doubt, waver or dispute. If any one disputes in this matter with you, now after knowledge has come to you, say: ‘Come! Let us gather together our sons and women among ourselves. Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!’”

Qur’an 3:58 “This is what We rehearse to you of the Signs and Message, a wise reminder. The similitude (likeness) of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be.’ And he was.”

Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

Qur’an 3:55 “Allah said, ‘Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).… Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them.” [Interesting, considering...]

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.” [Another translation reads:]

Qur’an 3:55 “Behold! Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith. Then shall you all return unto me, and I will judge between you on the matters wherein you dispute.” [Another:] “(Remember) when Allah said: ‘Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me. I am cleansing you of those who disbelieve.” [A fourth reads:] “When Allah said: ‘Jesus, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve.... I will decide between you concerning that which you differed.”

Bukhari:V4B56N814 “There was a Christian who embraced Islam and he used to write the revelations for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again he used to say: ‘Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.’”

Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations [the Torah and Gospels] and follow this Apostle [Jesus]. Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.” [A third translation says that “they” refers to “disbelievers,” not the disciples and they plotted to kill Jesus.] “And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Isa [Jesus]) and Allah plotted too.”

Why would God have to Plot?

Qur’an 3:50 “(I [Isa/Jesus] have come) to attest the Torah which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.”

The Torah and the quran are not the same thing!!so mulsums are cursed??

Bukhari:V4B55N658 “Allah’s Apostle said ‘How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur’an and not by the law of Gospel.’”

So the quran was rewritten and the curse is on the mulsums and all who follow it??

Bukhari:V4B55N657 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, will shortly descend amongst you Muslims and will judge mankind by the law of the Qur’an. He will break the cross and kill the swine [Jews] and there will be no Jizyah tax taken from non-Muslims. Money will be so abundant no one will accept it. So you may recite this Holy Verse: “Isa (Jesus) was just a human being before his death. On the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus) will be a witness against the Christians.”’”

Could this be a rewrite again to curse the followers of mo-ham-od??Because notice how they leave out the Torah and the word of God??

Yes I can see how the king of Jordan is a little worried?? With the teachings coming from his country and other mulsum countries who want the death of Gods People who he saved from slavery???
And lets not forget Jesus was of Jewish Blood!! Yes something about the destruction of the people from Babylon could this be the followers of mo-ham-od??

Qur’an 3:45 “Behold, the angels said: ‘O Mariam! Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of those nearest to Allah.”

SO WHICH IS IT WHICH IS THE LIE??

Qur’an 4.171 “O people of the Book (Christians), do not be fanatical in your faith, and say nothing but the truth about Allah. The Messiah who is Isa (Jesus), son of Mariam, was only a messenger of Allah, nothing more. He bestowed His Word on Mariam and His Spirit. So believe in Allah and say not Trinity for Allah is one Ilah (God)…far be it from His Glory to beget a son.”

COULD THIS BE THE ONE THE KING IS A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT?

Qur’an 61:14 “O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah: As Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers (in the Cause) of Allah?’ Said the disciples, ‘We are Allah’s helpers!’ Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the victorious.”

IN GODS CAUSE TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE OF ISRAEL WHO HE SAVED FROM EGYPT?? REMEMBER JESUS WAS A JEW!!

THEN WE HAVE THIS?? PLEASE EXPLAIN?/

Qur’an 9:57 “Some slander you, blaming you (of partiality) in the matter of (the distribution of) the offerings [stolen spoils]. If they are given part of these, they are pleased, but if not they are indignant and enraged!”

LIKE NOW THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST TRY TO STEAL FROM THE IRAQI PEOPLE YES TODAY THE MONSTERS KILLED IRAQI MEN WITH THEIR HANDS TIED THESE ARE THE ONES YOU ALINE YOURSELF WITH YELLOW COWARDS WHO CUT MEN HEADS OF HOW SAD??

Qur’an 78:21 “Truly Hell is as a place of ambush, a resort for the rebellious. A dwelling place for the disbelievers. They will abide there forever. Therein they taste neither coolness nor any drink save a boiling water and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold, paralyzing, a dirty wound discharge. It is a fitting reward for them.”

WE SEE YOU NOW SO THIS WILL ONLY DESTORY YOU!!

Qur’an 5:59 “Say: ‘People of the Book! Do you disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that has come to us and that which came before?’ Say: ‘Shall I point out to you something much worse than this by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom He transformed into apes and swine.”

WE HEAR ALL THE TIME THAT WE ARE CRAZY TO LISTEN WHAT YOUR TEACHERS SAY CAUSE THEY ARE WRONG BUT AGAIN YOU LIE??

Qur’an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

YET THEY ARE NOT THEY ARE HEALERS AND GOOD FREINDS!!
EVEN THE SAUIDS ARE USEING THE ISRAELIS TO HELP TRAIN THEIR ROAL GAURDS??

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

SO WHY DO YOU TRY TO MAKE FRIENDS BUT TO TELL LIES TO FOOL??

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”

SO WE SEE YOU ARE TAUGHT TO HATE CHIRSTIANS TOO!!

Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”

SO YOU MEAN TO LIE AND FOOL US THEN KILL US??

Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”

SO PEACE IS NOT POSSABLE WITH YOU??

Qur’an 5:57 “Believers, take not for friends those who take your religion for a mockery or sport, a joke, whether among those who received the Scripture before you or among those who reject Faith; but fear Allah.”

Qur’an 5:68 “Say: ‘People of the Scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.’ It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people.”

THIS IS CRAZY MABY HE WAS LIKE IVAN THE TERRABLE AND HAD THE MERCURY POISON WHICH MAKES YOU CRAZY??

Qur’an 4:157 “‘We [Jews] killed the Messiah, Jesus,’ but they killed him not, nor crucified him. It appeared so to them (as the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man and they killed that man). Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself. Those who differ with this version are full of doubts. They have no knowledge and follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not.”

AGAIN DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS IN YOUR HAND THAT YOU CAN SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES OR TOUCH AND SMELL ?? MO-HAM-OD WAS CRAZY!!

RACISM:

Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.” [9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

WE SEE THIS IN THE SUDAN MULSUMS KILLING MULSUMS??

Qur’an 9:97 “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger.”

SO THIS IS WHY YOU THINK IT IS OKAY TO KILL IRAQIS

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN saddam[yellow coward found in a hole don't shoot i'm a coward] KILLED OVER 300,000 IRAQI PEOPLE WOMEN AND CHILDREN??

Just a few ? for you to answer??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[Freedom]to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 7, 2004 8:45 PM

Hatshepsut offered some interesting statistics:
"6 million American muslims, most of whom are converts."
I've seen some inflated figures, always presented by mendacious muslims, and many ludicrous assertions of the "thousands" of Americans who converted to Islam after 9/11. But this is a new one: 5 million (give or take a few) American converts to Islam??!!! Sorry, can't buy that one.

Posted by: Susanp at November 7, 2004 8:56 PM

I wonder why we Canadians are not at all that concerned about terrorism. Now don't get me wrong as a freethinking liberal I am disgusted by many of the censory aspects of Islamic culture. But in my opinion it is far better to let them live how they like in their corner/shithole of the world. Osama is not so much interested in destroying the free world as he is in driving "occupiers" from lands he believes he and his religious views are entitled to.

Posted by: OttawaLiberal at November 7, 2004 08:39 PM

And was Van Gogh in arab land and were those 17 women killed by a mulsum male in their land and were the Children in the Russian school in their Land and what the people in the WTC in their land??

You have put your head in the sand and this will not keep them from cutting it off !!

Read what they think is okay!!

DECEPTION:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”
Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”
Bukhari:V4B52N268 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘War is deceit.’”

Qur’an 4:142 “Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.”

Bukhari:V7B71N661 “Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.”

Bukhari:V6B60N8 “Umar said, ‘Our best Qur’an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah’s Apostle himself said, “Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.”

Qur’an 33:11 “In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.”

Qur’an 33:14 “Say: Flight will not avail you if you flee from death, killing, or slaughter. In that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little while. Say, ‘Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you?’”

Qur’an 33:21 “You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.”

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Qur’an 74:52 “Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear.”

Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.’”

Qur’an 89:5 “There surely is an oath for thinking man.”

Qur’an 92:8 “We will make smooth for him the path to misery.”

Ishaq:519 “Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ‘I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.’ Having got Muhammad’s permission, he said, ‘I must tell lies.’ The Apostle said, ‘Tell them.’”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.”

Qur’an 47:24 “Do they not understand the Qur’an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding.”

Ishaq:548 “By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ‘There is not much honesty among people nowadays.’”

Qur’an 5:41 “Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.”

Qur’an 5:101 “Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.”

Qur’an 5:102 “Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.”

Ishaq:567 “Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar.”

Tabari IX:36/Ishaq:596 “‘Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among you own people.’ ‘Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor against me? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah?’ ‘You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected by the Quraysh, and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need, and we comforted you.”

Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”

Tabari VI:110 “When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, ‘Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.’ Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad’s tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, ‘I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.’”

Qur’an 40:32 “O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.”

Ishaq:248 “Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment.”

Qur’an 2:6 “As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.”

Qur’an 2:9 “They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).”

Qur’an 8:18 “This and surely; Allah weakens the deceitful plots of unbelieving infidels.”

Qur’an 8:30 “Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.” Ishaq:323 “I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.”

Qur’an 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”

Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.”

Tabari VII:85/Ishaq:363 “The Jews of the Qaynuqa replied, ‘Muhammad, do you think that we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowledge and you made good use of your opportunity.’”

Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 “Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ‘O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.’ ‘Say what you like,’ Muhammad replied. ‘You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N369 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?’ Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes,’ Maslamah said, ‘Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.’ The Prophet said, ‘You may say such things.’”

Qur’an 61:5 “Moses said: ‘O my people, why do you annoy and insult me, when you well know I am Allah’s Messenger?’ Then when they turned away, Allah caused them to be deceived.”

Bukhari:V4B52N233 “Allah’s Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying copies of the Qur’an. [He said:] Unbelievers will never understand our signs and revelations.”

Ishaq:248 “Allah increases their sickness. A tormented doom awaits the Jews. Allah said, ‘They are mischief makers. They are fools. The Jews deny the truth and contradict what the Apostle has brought. I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N147 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A man may seem as if he were practicing the deeds of Paradise while in fact he is from the people of Hell.’”

Qur’an 13:27 “Say, ‘God leads whosoever He wills astray.’”

Ishaq:383 “One of the young men’s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ‘You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.’”

Qur’an 3:24 “They have been deceived by the lies they have themselves fabricated; their religion has deceived them.”

Ishaq:397 “Then Allah said, ‘It is not for any prophet to deceive.”

Ishaq:442 “By Muhammad’s order we beguiled them.”
Tabari VIII:23 “The Messenger and his Companions continued in the fear and distress that Allah has described in the Qur’an. Then Nu’aym came to the Prophet. ‘I ‘ve become a Muslim, but my tribe does not know of my Islam; so command me whatever you will.’ Muhammad said, ‘Make them abandon each other if you can so that they will leave us; for war is deception.’”

Ishaq:496 “‘By Allah you lie,’ one said to another. ‘Liar yourself!’ ‘You are a disaffected person arguing on behalf of the diseased.”

Bukhari:V4B53N408 “When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ‘This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.’ The (Meccans) said, ‘If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ‘This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.’ The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ‘Apostle of Allah.’ On that Ali said, ‘I will never erase it.’ Muhammad said, ‘Let me see the paper.’ The Prophet
erased the expression with his own hand.”

Now you say you are a lib but the libs I know at least I can Trust!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] To Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who SUPPORT them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 7, 2004 9:00 PM

FACT: The lawful age for betrothal (not intercourse) in other faiths of the day was 3. Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 5 or 6 and the marriage was consummated according to scholars between the age of 11 and 16. Some girls become pubescent at early as 8. According to the law of the TIMES, not our current law which legalizes sodomy, Muhammad was NOT a pedophile.

*FACT*: Most medical health professionals would consider sexual relationship between a girl of 11 to 16 and a significantly older man to be unhealthy at best, and probably likely to lead to emotional and mental problems for the girl at a later stage. This holds IRRESPECTIVE of the legality or otherwise of such unions.

FACT: The practice of slave captives as wives, 'amaa, is a practice that predated Islam and like other forms of slavery was tolerated. It became closely regulated after Islam as part of the war booty, female captives would be remanded as 'amaa, lower wives with lower status, but not as beast of the field.

FACT: The taking of 'amaa has since been banned publically in all islamic countries, including Saudia, and is practiced only in the most backwards of places.

*FACT*: Women are treated as second class citizens, bordering on being amaa, particularly in Saudi, and in many Muslim majority countries today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3475189.stm
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Sau-summary-eng
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3417739.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3435153.stm

FACT: The bible did not abolish slavery. Rather different interpretations of the bible, which is the word of God, were used to condone slavery for 400 years. Different interpretations of the bible claim that non-whites must be servants to whites because they are the descendents of Ham, who laughed at the genitals of his drunken, naked father.

FACT: Only in the quran do you see God rewarding the one who frees a slave. This is an incentive to abolish slavery. Is there such an injuction in the bible?

*FACT*: The bible has been used to BOTH support and oppose slavery, and Methodists and Quakers were instrumental in the early abolitionist movements. Today, virtually all Western countries with a Christian legacy have abolished slavery. On the other hand, slavery is still widely practiced in certain Muslim countries today.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_slav3.htm
http://www.iabolish.com/today/background/sudan.htm
http://www.iabolish.com/darfur/news/tuk09-19-04.htm

What kind of cruel God tolerates slavery? A merciful and forgiving God who is waiting on HUMANITY to get it right and act as brothers.

The same kind of cruel God that throws people into everlasting torture, not because that they are immoral or evil, but because they simply refuse to acknowledge or worship him.

Quote:
"It is for this reason that many live in fear an trepidation of what God has promised will occur in the coming days. Most are in no hurry at all to see it all revealed as it will be beyond horrors as must minds have been able to comprehend."
Unquote

The quran, not the english Koran, is a book that must be read in context, not written in the same tense or verse as the bible. This is the source of much confusion for non-muslims.

*FACT*: The people most confused with the Quran at the moment are Islamic extremists who use it to justify their violence. Non-muslims who are confused with the Koran merely spew bigotry on blogs or harass their Muslim neighbours. They do not blow themselves up in children schools or cut the throats of writers who disagree with them. Hence logic dictates that the efforts of educating the world on the "true" meaning of Islam as a peaceful and tolerant religion should be directed primarily towards the Muslims themselves.

*FACT*: The greatest genocide against Muslims today is probably happening in Darfur (the large majority of the black targets of the Janjaweed are Muslims), far outnumbering the Palestinians killed by the Israelis in the past decade. Ironically, their prosecutors are largely Muslims themselves and the Arab media seem to be as complicit in their silence on this fact as they are vocal in their solidarity for their Palestine brothers. Well, at least noone can say Allah doesn't have a perverse sense of humour .....

Posted by: gandalf at November 7, 2004 9:03 PM

The questioning of hatshepsut turned my blood cold. It reminded me of something someone told me once. When I was very young, this girl told me how she was molested out in a field one day. This molester told her he was doing some research and wanted to ask her some questions. While he was asking questions about molestation, he was molesting her -- it was truly sickening. I felt the same way about hatshepsut.

hatsheput said:

"You will see emerging soon a different kind of Muslim, one that will appear even stranger, and even more distant and foreign to you that what you have grown accustomed. These are the "ghuraba'a" the strangers, and that is yet another story."

Is this a veiled threat?

http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/scarves/strangeness.html

http://www.borrull.org/e/noticia.php?id=35122

http://www4.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/12/18/singapore.arrests.reut/

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-12-2003_pg7_48



Also I'm wondering if hatesheput expects Mr Spencer to denounce and purge all negativity directed at Muslims?

"I noted there are those in this site who have other nefarious motives, including genocide of all Muslims.

I encourage you to more diligently redress such comments, less it be inferred that you condone these comments. Minimally, you should delete them from your site to maintain its character."

Nefarious motives? Genocide? Diligently redress? See how sensible, how polite our guest is. Because he's referring to Muslims . G-d forbid someone 'say' something negative about Muslims, even those who spend their days plotting the death of infidels the way others punch a time clock.

Why doesn't hatesput condemn the murder of Infidels without ending it with, " however?"

Posted by: Kemaste at November 7, 2004 9:22 PM

The quran, not the english Koran, is a book that must be read in context, not written in the same tense or verse as the bible. This is the source of much confusion for non-muslims.

Posted by: gandalf at November 7, 2004 09:03 PM

SEAMS PRETTY CLEAR TO ME GUESS YOU THINK WE ARE ALL STUPID??

EXPLAIN THIS ??

TORTURE:

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “T