As JW has reported in the past, not a few arson/grafitti attacks on western mosques and muslim-owned businesses have turned out to be self-inflicted to attract sympathy.

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 9:35 AM

It is imperative that we do not fall to the level of hatred that the Jihad tries to provoke in us. We stand for freedom, equality, against hatred and violence and bigotry.

The Jihad soul wants to corrupt our soul. I truth the Dutch will see this and respond accordingly.

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 8, 2004 9:39 AM

DID THE SHOAH TEACH US NOTHING! I'M DISGUSTED

Posted by: orpheus at November 8, 2004 10:01 AM

Oh no, not the insulting pamphlets. Anything but the insulting pamphlets!!!

Posted by: ferrethouse at November 8, 2004 10:19 AM

"Vigilante attacks like these are always wrong."

Well said. One reason vigilante attacks are wrong is because Islamists use them to whine and create an even more deceptive mask to hide behind.

"I hope the Dutch government will take firm action against those who perpetrated them, as well as firm action against not only the murderer of Theo van Gogh, but against the Islamic assumptions and attitudes that motivated the killer."

Society has an inherent right to protect itself. In the long run the only way to prevent vigilante attacks is for government authorities to take the steps to combat and prevent all militant Islam and show the world and society it will not be tolerated.

Posted by: Report at November 8, 2004 10:19 AM

I am a new reader here, and this is my first post. I want to say first that vigelante attacks are wrong. But I feel the same frusration that those guilty of these crimes feel. If a muslim chooses to move into a western country, he must be tolerant of their customs ands laws, as he would expect them to be of his. Muslims will soon find themselves unwelcome everywhere.

Posted by: Hans at November 8, 2004 10:21 AM

Kaffir Boy, You are right on. These mindless attacks fueled by rage are very similar to what we are struggling against. An enlightened critical analysis of Islam will lead to the eventual disappearance of this problem. The more people learn about Islam the more it will disgust them ( Yeah Jihad Watch) Tit for Tat assaults is exactly what they want from us. It justifies their call for 'defensive' jihad. It's not wise to butt heads with someone who has callouses on his forehead.

Posted by: tger at November 8, 2004 10:26 AM

About that school. It's the school mentioned in the following article in the Wall Street Journal:

http://www.cidi.nl/news/2003/150403b.html

"Here in Eindhoven, the foundation's history is interwoven with that of the Cheppih family. Ahmed Cheppih came to the Netherlands from Morocco more than 30 years ago, seeking political asylum from what his son, Mohammed, says was persecution for his Islamic activism.

After taking early retirement as a laborer in 1986, the elder Mr. Cheppih got even more involved in Islamic affairs, his son says. "That became his profession here in Holland," explains Mohammed Cheppih, who is 25 years old.

The elder Mr. Cheppih helped found the mostly Moroccan Al-Furqaan Mosque and the Netherlands' first Islamic primary school. In 1989, the Saudi-based Al-Waqf foundation opened its branch in Eindhoven, eventually locating in the Al-Furqaan Mosque. It helped fund the elder Mr. Cheppih's primary school and began running seminars in Islamic law and spiritual belief, attracting several thousand students a year during the 1980s and 1990s.

The younger Mr. Cheppih says his father sent him to Saudi Arabia to finish high school and then attend university. In 2000, the son returned to the Netherlands as representative of the Muslim World League, Saudi Arabia's main international charity."

As you can see, this was not just any school but one with ties to fundamentalists. The government has known about these ties for quite some time now but nothing has been done about it. Is it any wonder that after the umpteenth time Dutch citizens become victims of islamic radicals they want to tear down the places where they learn this stuff?

It should also be noted that Dutch Islamic websites have grown more bold and are actually teaching muslims how to behead victims. Also important, the last week there were much more reports of muslims on the internet rejoicing in the death of Van Gogh than hatespeech towards muslims.

Posted by: Leveller at November 8, 2004 10:42 AM

The murder of van Gogh was also a vigilante attack. I'm for peace in the world and everything that goes with it, but the Muslims need to be taught that they're not going to simply use non-Muslims and critics of Islam as a door mat.

While attacks like this aren't the absolute correct measure, I won't lose any sleep over it. People around the world are tired of the Muslims and their whining. They're offended by the slightest of issues, yet are silent about their Muslim brothers sawing off the heads of innocent people.

Remember that they're had no trouble burning down churches. They've delcared war, so war they'll get.

Hopefully, Mosks won't have to be blown to bits to achieve peace. That being said, if they do, then they do.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 10:42 AM

Correction: they've, not they're.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 10:44 AM

One other thing, the 'insulting pamphlets' were quite harmless. You can see them here:

http://www.geenstijl.nl/paginas/moskeevarkens/

The text under the cartoon pig is not shocking. The group calls itself 'mosk pigs', other text reads: 'we are eating pork tonight' and 'on tour'. Very silly but hardly an attack. But as always, muslims show an incredible lack of humor and selfdeprecation.

Posted by: Leveller at November 8, 2004 10:53 AM

I think that some vicious parodies of Islam need to be put out in honor of Theo Van Gogh. Amsterdam should host the Theo Van Gogh Memorial Film Festival next year. Film makers from all over the world could be set with the task of portraying Islam in whatever way they want as long as it accurately reflects the Koran, Hadith, or some other official Islamic history. Why should Islam be spared from the satirical eye of our most creative minds? Take the most repulsive stories and play them up for shock value or sick humor. It could be a competition for the best 10 minute short. That's how long the movie that Theo got killed for was.

Possible topics:
6 yr old Aisha on a drooling Mo's lap
Mo and the best looking girl of the tribe. How wonderful this love story is. Nailing her on the day he had her family executed.
The poetess who got killed for making fun of Mo.
The list is long

I know this will probably never happen because nobody really wants to die for a ten minute short, but I can't think of a more fitting tribute to Theo. This would be vastly superior to scorching a few mosques and it would make them much madder. They like it when we torch their mosques.

Posted by: tger at November 8, 2004 10:57 AM

Vigilanteism is the inevitable result of negligent governance.

Posted by: Mike at November 8, 2004 10:57 AM

When government will not represent the will of the people, these things are more likely to happen. If the citizens see their people being murdered on the streets in broad daylight and the authorities seem to excuse the bloodshed, people will act out of frustration. It may be wrong but until we can depend on our governments to apply the law of the land, these events will occur. It doesn't make it right, but I understand their rage. When you read of the plans that the radical Mohammedans have for the west...

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 8, 2004 10:59 AM

Mosk Pigs!! How hilarious is that? These people think Mosk Pigs is an assault? No No No Getting your head cut off is an assault.

I have a Ramadan barbeque every year. I serve baby back ribs or North Carolina Pulled Pork and I make sure it's done in time for everyone to have some before the sun goes down.

That's making fun of Islam. That's not an assault. Islam should be made fun of at every opportunity.

Posted by: tger at November 8, 2004 11:05 AM

They did this themselves if someone else had done it it would have been Full!! and not at night when it was closed??

watch for them to make us feel sorry for them they know they are loose-ing!!

The Word is getting out??

Some old egption woman beet up-on a police man and he did right in the arrest and CAIR is trying to blame the cop but that dog don't hunt!!!

Call about Spector it does make a difference if the Judges let the Terrorist back on the Streets??

Think Pida and others [Getmo] ?

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory [FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to Threir Threat give them Courage to Stand and Fight Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 11:09 AM

"I think that some vicious parodies of Islam need to be put out in honor of Theo Van Gogh."

Right on, Tger!

I'd also like to suggest that comic-books and graphic novels be used to parody and satirise the IslamoNazis to good effect.

I haven't been to Amsterdam for a while but it certainly used to have a thriving underground comics scene and many comics shops.

I know there is an amusing U.S. graphic novel called 'Mohammed's Believe It - Or Else!' which is available online. Check it out for inspiration!

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 11:18 AM

It's not wise to butt heads with someone who has callouses on his forehead.

Posted by: tger at November 8, 2004 10:26 AM

Unless you believe in the 2nd addmenment!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory [FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Give them Strength to Stand and Fight Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 11:20 AM

Truely amazing,when Muslims are caught in person or on video murdering and commiting terrorists acts,we hear the cries of the "Alleged"
criminal and to remember the people are innocent until proven guilty.
Sadly,Muslims don't follow their own advice when dealing with the infidels. Without one person arrested they know exactly who is responsible,think of all the money democracies could save if the Police were replaced with Muslims that would point out the guilty party
without all that cost of getting trivial items for the Courts such as "Facts" .

I live in Canada and there has been a pattern
of vandalism to Mosques and claims of attacks on Muslims just after the media reports antisemitic
acts,but in only a few cases a misguided Jewish youth made the antisemitic act,but with Muslims it's only a few actual arrests to prove vandalism to Mosques and attacks on Muslims,the rest of the Islamophobic racist attacks never have enough information for the Police to do anything.
This wouldn't be the first time Muslims will sacrifice damaging a Mosque to milk sympathy for their "Victim" envy caused by REAL victims of beheadings and torture in Islamic jails for being a Christian or infidel.

Lets not overlook the paradoxical irony here for Muslims,they defend suicide bombers in Palestine that murder civilians in Israel because of a perceived occupation by Israel within their homeland.
Now lets transfer that to Holland,Muslims are the agressors and occupiers that have now murdered
civilians by terrorism in the name of a desired Islamic State for Holland. Either the Palestinians are wrong or the Dutch are right to defend their land from Islamic occupiers that resort to Palestinian style terror tactic to force the Dutch into submission and no doubt force them to convert or be thrown out as refugees for other Countries to take in.

During the 2nd world war the Dutch were welcomed into Canada for protection until the war was over,the Royal Family stayed in Ottawa and after the Canadians Liberated Holland the Dutch
made May 5th the remeberance day and schoolchildren are selected to adopt a soldiers grave and decorate and clean it two weeks befor
the celebration to show respect.
Ottawa has a Tulip festival each fall as a gift from the Dutch ever since the war,Canada also built Churches for the Dutch reformers to feel inclusive as Christians.
The Dutch are still welcomed in Canada and if they need a place to stay while the Islamists are removed just like the Nazis were when they were occupiers,Muslims that stay mute on these attacks are part of the Islamic army and not "True" civilians as the Palestinians see the Israelis over 18.

The Dutch have the right under U.N. laws that allow to resist a occupying militia even if they aren't in military garb,did Muslims really think that after what the Nazis did the Dutch would coward down to their demands to avoid bloodshed.
I noticed the bombs exploded when no Muslims were there to be injuried,this is the standard tactic in Canada to draw attention to the unfounded Islamophobic perception.

NO ISLAM - KNOW A FREE HOLLAND

Posted by: ala-sux at November 8, 2004 11:21 AM

It's time for all good and decent Muslims who are repulsed by the slaugher of innocents in the name of Islam to finally speak up. This silence is an indictment.

It's like the last 5 minutes of Perry Mason, if someone doesn't speak up now to save them, They'll all be convicted.

Posted by: Kemaste at November 8, 2004 11:28 AM

Tger suggested:
"I think that some vicious parodies of Islam need to be put out in honor of Theo Van Gogh."

Not "vicious", Tger, only truthful. Your idea is brilliant. Imagine if those fellows who did "Team America" were to produce a "Life of Mohammad". The subject is sooo ripe! But you are right, it would take a brave and reckless fellow to do it, as it would constitute a huge provocation in the eyes of the jihadis. Think of Salman Rushdie. Ridicule and satire are potent weapons. Let us use them.

Posted by: Zeno at November 8, 2004 11:33 AM

sorry

Posted by: bart at November 8, 2004 11:41 AM

kamaste:

It's been done and the petition results were very frightening,check out the CAIR USA website,their online petiton to denounce terror
"in the name of Islam" has only received just under 700,000 people agreeing with the protest.
CAIR and a few oher Islamic groups claim there are up to 7 Million Muslims living in America,do the math and see that about 90 percent are in favour of terrorism in the name of Islam.

Considering what they did to Van Gogh for opposing views of Islam,just think how scared
Muslims feel opposing the Islamists by declaring that their version of Islam is not the correct one even though all I have read in the Quran
supports the killing of non-Muslims as Muhammed did.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 8, 2004 11:42 AM

Robert - while I agree with you that vigilante attacks are wrong, it has been seen time and again that, if the state does not protect its citizens, they will protect themselves. I would blame the Dutch government (and the rest of the EU) for this attack and not the Dutch citizens.

Posted by: johnb at November 8, 2004 11:46 AM

Did anyone die or got injured from these attacks?

Posted by: callistos at November 8, 2004 12:00 PM

Catherine,

I beg to differ, if they did it themselves, the mosque will be full. If others did, then it will be empty. These islamo-terrorist have no respect for human lives, irregardless of whether muslim or not. Muslim mothers send their children to die for the glory of Allah.

Posted by: callistos at November 8, 2004 12:06 PM

Blowing off the door doesn't send a message. Blowing up the whole mosque is more to the point! Mosques are terrorist's caves in your neighborhood!

Posted by: D' Artist at November 8, 2004 12:13 PM

AM still trying to decide how to respond to this news...
should it be "boo-hoo-hoo" or "BWAHAHAHA"...
/sarcasm off

Guess johnb and DCwatson spoke my thoughts very nicely here.

Posted by: voletti at November 8, 2004 12:37 PM

I don't approve of this action, and also believe it to be counter-productive. It'll just result in more PeeCee laws designed to shield the poor picked-on Muslims from criticism and "oppression."

Nevertheless, I'd like to point out, even the people who did this have the moral high ground over Muslims. When Muslims blow up kaffir targets, they do it to full buildings at rush hour or at the beginning of the school day when the target is most full of potential victims.

These people blew the door off of a school at 3:30 in the morning when no one was there.

Posted by: Suzan at November 8, 2004 1:04 PM

Obviously a justifiable backlash due to the outrageuos Van Gogh murder. Sounds like these were very weak bombs and some old fashioned Molotov Cocktails. If the "mosque bombers" (that has a nice ring to it does'nt it) are caught they should be set free because they were simply "acting out of convictions".

Sniff, sniff, I notice a remarkably fresher smell in here today.

Thx

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 1:07 PM

The Muslims should ask themselves what they did to provoke this crime. After all, that is what the Left and Muslims always say when kaffirs are attacked by Muslims.

Posted by: Suzan at November 8, 2004 1:26 PM

Remember, Muslims often use schools as terrorist training and recruitment centers. Just look at how the Palestinians use UNRWA schools to teach terrorism to their children and encourage them to become homicide bombers. Mosques, as we all know, are often used by Moslems to store weapons and ammunition, to preach that non-Muslims may be killed and enslaved, to encourage the spread of Islam by force.

If the government of Holland will not protect their people from Islamic savages, the people have a right to protect themselves.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at November 8, 2004 1:46 PM

If there is anything that muslims respect it is power. that is why they embrace islam. and what is the most succesful type of government in the middle east? dictatorships. powerful and ruthless leaders like saddam. i have read many articles saying that allawi is using our marines to make himself look like he is powerful and not afraid to use force in iraq. i think that if regular citizens used force it would send the same message.

Posted by: bart at November 8, 2004 1:46 PM

This anti-islamic vandalism is a shot over their bow from der volk. Evidence of the will to fight back is encouraging. But mob and vigilante justice is a terrible substitute for lawful government action. I hope the Dutch Government can muster the spine to prosecute and/or summarily deport Muslims guilty of incitement to violence, conspiracy, or sedition. I hope the Dutch people can muster the spine their government needs. And mostly I wonder whether even that will be enough, given the demographic trend toward Moslem majority.

Posted by: Zeno at November 8, 2004 1:47 PM

November 8, 2004
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
Calf snow fall?? How can this be it’s November and they are crying Global Warming? It’s all about a dimmi tax!! Gore starts a global fund with G Sacs??
2 beauty queens killed in Napa Valley more to it? Could it be mulsums? Remember this is their M.O.? Remember those 2 killed on the Beach in their sleeping bags close by? Mulsum sees beauty and distracts them and mulsum kills beauty?

Oil below 50 dollars PASS the Energy Plan do not go back to sleep!!

Ivory Coast Mulsums kill French Military and take their base? The French say they are the mulsums Friends why do you do this? The French take out the Ivory Coast air force?

Once again Egypt makes cover for its power grab? Baridi [arab-eygpt-arab league] Look at the plutonium traces found in Egypt? Look at all the Islamic countries now with plans for nukes beyond their capabilities? Now they do not have Arafat[YELLOW COWARD CURSED WITH WORMS] as a distraction??

Again Jordan light on Islamic Terrorist only gives 4 Islamic Terrorist 1 yr in jail??

China grows grapes and does wine making seams their soil is better than France’s??

More Islamic Terrorist dead in Iraq today!!

Explosion at a Iraqi Church ??

USA 132 Police Officers dead this year and they were wearing body armor?

Call about Spector he can not be allowed to head the appointment of the Judges they will be lib and weak on the Terrorist??

Hugo Chavias hanging around with Castro? Remember Hugo was great friends with the damned saddam[YELLOW COWARD FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A COWARD] ? Remember he would not sell oil when saddam[yellow coward who was found in a hole don’t shoot I’m a coward] issued a boycott??

Islamic scholars say the mulsums are not supporting the Islamic Terrorist and that they should??

Earthquake in Japan no Deaths and little damage? Why because the Japanese people stand with the USA!! Our prayers are working!!? And ALL who Fight with her Amen!!

The Iraqi People know who their real Friends are the USA we are the ones who helped to get rid of saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]!! Remember the Iraqi People want their FREEDOM the Arab world was in support of saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] Monster who killed over 300,000 Iraqi People while the Arab world said nothing and did nothing?? The Iraqis Fight with the USA for their FREEDOM from the Islamic Terrorist MONSTERS who follow ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] that now kill the Iraqi People!!
Turn off the electric’s in Iraq for the whole country for a while Play Hard Ball if you don’t shut al-jeeze down? Remember the King of UAE is dead?? Remember it was Germany who sided with the Arabs in WW2 take out that sat. So what if they don’t get their T.V. Porn??

For those of you in the press out there? We stopped in April because of the New Iraqi Government and the King of Jordan who recommend a Iraqi General to be in charge?? Well NOW we are back to finish the Fight Because the Islamic Terrorist Lied and the King was wrong? The Islamic Terrorist has been killing the Iraqi People.... The Iraqi knows now we are in for a penny and in for a pound!! The killing of the Iraqi people by Islamic Terrorist will be stopped the American People have spoken on November 2!!

We miss Tory Clark and those wild outfits!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL the Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 2:02 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=7&u=/ap/20041108/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_school_explosion

""Eindhoven is shocked, very shocked, by a cowardly deed in the middle of the night when normal citizens are sleeping," Mayor Alexander Sakkers told reporters.

Sakkers said police would introduce round-the-clock surveilance of Islamic sites in the town of about 200,000 which has five main mosques. "

This just sends the wrong message to the regular citizens who can't stand to see islam take over their communities and governments. Why is the government protecting the enemy?

Zeno's comment was right on.

Posted by: bart at November 8, 2004 2:04 PM

tger said,

I think that some vicious parodies of Islam need to be put out in honor of Theo Van Gogh.......

I agree, a big budget motion picture, a la "the Passion of Christ" would be the fastest way, for Americans at least, to see isalm for real.

Nothing would educate the masses faster than a hollywood movie. It would almost overnight open the eyes of about 100,000,000 Americans.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 2:08 PM

Fellow Jihad Watchers...

I'm a bit perplexed and perhaps some of you can enlighten me on this.

There is frequent criticism that the mainstream Muslim communities in the west are not vocal [except in rare instances and than with only a weak response] in their condemnation of the radical Muslim acts of murder, mayhem, and terror. I have read numerous articles, heard several discussions, that the reason for the mainstream silence is fear of retribution. Well hold it, if there is indeed a well founded fear of retaliation doesn't that indicate that as a whole the "peaceful" Muslims in the west are fully aware of the covert activities under way in the west by radical Muslims???? Doesn't that indicate that they are aware of the overall intentions of the radical elements???? Doesn't their silence indicate they are aware of the radical cells in their communities???

See, this is why I'm perplxed. In the freedom of the western nations why would these people be fearful of speaking out were it not for the fact that they know things that we do not.And if knowledge of actual or suspected covert activity is not reported doesn't that make the mainstream muslim community complicit in terrorism????

Oh yes, I'm confused.

Posted by: krkrjak at November 8, 2004 2:08 PM

krkrjak

there are no radical muslims. they all have the same capability because isn't what the terrorists do justified within the quran?

Posted by: bart at November 8, 2004 2:15 PM

Posted by: callistos at November 8, 2004 12:06 PM

Never said the Islamic Terrorist did it I said the mulsums did it trying to fool the people to feel sorry for them I know I write a little confussing !! but I didn't say the terrorist did it? some people from CAIR did!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory [FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

PS
LOOK an READ their World??

Tabari VII:149 “I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, ‘Who’s there?’ I said [lied], ‘I’m a Banu Bakr.’ ‘So am I.’ Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: ‘I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.’ I said, ‘You will soon see!’ Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad.

Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”

PEACE, ISLAM STYLE:
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.’”

Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”

Tabari VII:158 “Judayy went to Abd Allah Ibn Ubayy to ask for support. He said, ‘I found him sitting among a number of his companions while the Prophet’s crier was calling men to arms. He said, ‘This is a clever trick of Muhammad’s.’ The Messenger of Allah besieged the Nadir Jews for fifteen days. In the end they made peace with him on the condition that the Prophet would not kill them and that their property and their coats of mail would be his.”

Qur’an 9:3 “And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Pilgrimage is that Allah and His Messenger dissolve treaty obligations with the Pagans.”

ASK YOURSELF WHO ARE THE PAGANS ubl [yellow coward who runs away] LAST STATMENT CALLED US ALL PAGANS??

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 2:16 PM

Bart said,

Sakkers said police would introduce round-the-clock surveilance of Islamic sites in the town of about 200,000 which has five main mosques.

5 mosques for a town of only 200K? in which the people are NOT all islamic. That's 5 too many.

The Dutch authorites are being way to PC on this. Wasting tax payers money to protect mosques where I doubt they collect tax on anyway, what a bad return on the money.

Look, these islamic immigrants are used to being treated like shit from their governments where they came from. They would'nt know the difference if the host governments made them pay high taxes, set curfew hours, and confined them to certain parts of town etc.

Freedom is a good thing but like all good things it takes a responsible person to handle it. Some can but too many others ruin it for the rest by being given too much free reign.

Bottom line is that all muslims are suspect.
If they don't like it then they are free to move somewhere else.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 2:29 PM

CAIR and a few oher Islamic groups claim there are up to 7 Million Muslims living in America,

Considering what they did to Van Gogh for opposing views of Islam,just think how scared
Muslims feel opposing the Islamists by declaring that their version of Islam is not the correct one even though all I have read in the Quran
supports the killing of non-Muslims as Muhammed did.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 8, 2004 11:42 AM

CAIR IS WRONG ONLY 2 AND A HALF MILLION AND WE HAVE OVER 43,OOO,OOO GUN OWNERS IN THE USA!!

AIR FORCES ANNOUNCE THEIR NEW BABY CALLED THE MOP BIGGER THAN THE MOAB

MOAB=20,000 LBS
MOP=30,000 LBS

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat and give them Courage to Stand and Fight Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 2:33 PM

Catherine,

Those verses compel me to say that the koran is no more than a textbook for murderers, pirates, bushwackers,theives, bigots, pedophiles, criminals of a types, satan worshippers,and oddly enough, cowards. They lay in wait for a sneak attack then run away after, not forgetting to steal anything they can from the victim.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 2:40 PM

Sakkers said police would introduce round-the-clock surveilance of Islamic sites in the town of about 200,000 which has five main mosques.

5 mosques for a town of only 200K? in which the people are NOT all islamic. That's 5 too many.

The Dutch authorites are being way to PC on this. Wasting tax payers money to protect mosques where I doubt they collect tax on anyway, what a bad return on the money.

Bottom line is that all muslims are suspect.
If they don't like it then they are free to move somewhere else.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 02:29 PM

I disagree with the first part of your statment but i agree with the last part??

the First part now they are watching the mulsums coming and going and taking pictures just wait the mussis will complain of the protection soon?? Today we have listening divices and will of course have to make sure they are safe inside?? They will not like this one bit??

TOO BAD!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdo,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 2:44 PM

Ah, some counter survellence, so obvious it escaped me at first. Makes perfect sence.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 2:46 PM

twintowers

Posted by: bart at November 8, 2004 2:51 PM

In honor of our new toy the MOP
Our new 30,000 lb Baby!!
http://www.beecy.net/frank/

Love those Guys!!

OT
http://www.nationalreview.com/miller/miller200411081250.asp
November 08, 2004, 12:50 p.m.
Letter from Barnier
My response to the French foreign minister.
"I am writing to you as a friend of America," says Michel Barnier, the foreign minister of France, in a "Letter to America" published in this morning's Wall Street Journal (unavailable online to non-subscribers). Now that there's no chance of the Kerry administration throwing a swanky state dinner for France, it's possible to interpret Barnier's letter as the second part of a new public-relations campaign to salvage Franco-American relations. The first olive branch came last week, with French president Jacques Chirac's surprisingly warm letter congratulating President Bush on his reelection.
But the content of Barnier's open letter suggests that he doesn't fully appreciate why so many Americans are irritated at France.
"I am writing to you as the citizen of a country that helped your country secure its own independence."
The French love to take credit for helping American colonists break free from British rule. To be sure, France provided enormous and perhaps indispensable aid during the War of Independence. But a proper understanding of history requires us to recognize that French motives were entirely cynical. King Louis XVI certainly did not accept the principles of the Declaration of Independence. He regarded as abhorrent the notion that "all men are created equal." Lafayette was even branded a fugitive when he first traveled to America to help General Washington's cause. This unfortunate matter was cleared up only after the French formally decided to intervene in the conflict — a decision that was based wholly on the desire to hurt Britain rather than help America. During the final years of the war, France pressed the Americans to accept a peace agreement that would have kept New York City, the Carolinas, and Georgia within the British Empire. After Yorktown and during the actual peace talks, the French turned on their erstwhile allies and tried to limit American territorial gains. If the French had gotten their way at the Treaty of Paris, the United States would have been confined to a narrow strip of territory along the eastern seaboard — like a North American version of Chile.
"I'm concerned about the campaigns against my country, and the recent surge of 'French-bashing.'"
I suppose Barnier thinks I'm part of the problem, as the co-author of a new book called Our Oldest Enemy: A History of America's Disastrous Relationship with France. But what exactly is "French-bashing"? The French have tried to suggest that it's a form of racism. "When you insult the French people, simply because they are French, then it's a kind of racism campaign," Jean-David Levitte, the French ambassador to the United States, has said. This is silly. The charge is leveled as a debate stopper that means to obscure the real problem. Americans are critical of France these days not because they're odious Francophobes, but because they're sincerely and legitimately upset about French behavior over the last few years — behavior that has actually hurt the United States. Moreover, I would wager that there's much more "America-bashing" going on in France than there is "French-bashing" going on in the United States. Long before Fahrenheit 9/11, books touting conspiracy theories about the Bush administration's complicity in September 11 were selling hundreds of thousands of copies in France. And consider this sentiment, expressed on the pages of Le Monde shortly after the terrorist strikes: "How we have dreamt of this event," wrote Jean Baudrillard, a prominent French intellectual. "How all the world without exception dreamt of this event, for no one can avoid dreaming of the destruction of a power that has become hegemonic. ... It is they who acted, but we who wanted the deed." So before lecturing Americans on "French-bashing," Barnier should take a hard look at what his countrymen have been saying about us — or at least those countrymen "who wanted the deed."
"France is actually among your best friends in the fight against terrorism."
Au contraire. At the very moment when Bush began to speak of the need to fight a war on terror — "a new kind of war," he called it — Chirac expressed his reservations. "I don't know whether we should use the word war," he said, standing beside Bush one week after September 11. Later, of course, there was the dispute over Iraq. As Barnier says in the Journal, "Let us recognize without animosity that the war in Iraq deeply divided us." Okay, let us. But let's not pretend that the animosity is over, at least not when France is demanding that the insurgent groups now murdering Iraqi civilians and killing American troops receive a formal place at this month's international conference in Egypt. This was an astonishing demand whose only conceivable goal was to bring further chaos to a country that already is suffering from more than enough of it. Think about it this way: Today's newspapers are full of stories about France cracking down on insurgents in the Ivory Coast, where gangs of thugs are attacking French peacekeepers and white residents. France is hitting back hard, as it should. But how would Barnier feel if the United States suddenly said that these violent mobs deserved the legitimacy of international recognition? Would he still call us one his country's best friends?
"Because we have common interests everywhere, we should have common ambitions."
Agreed. But before we join hands and face the future, French political and intellectual leaders must quit referring to the United States as an out-of-control "hyperpower" whose activities requiring "balancing" (i.e., opposing) on the international stage. Only then will genuinely fruitful cooperation on a full range of problems be possible.
"Why not convene a high-level group right now, consisting of independent, respected figures from both sides of the Atlantic to explore ways in which we can deepen our political cooperation?"
This proposal sounds curiously like John Kerry's call for a "summit." Of course, there's no harm in holding some meetings. That's how a lot of diplomacy gets done. But we shouldn't expect much from them. What matters much more than words — including words written in letter to America — are deeds. Let France make the first move.

WHAT ABOUT THE FRENCH DESTORYING A MULSUM COUNTRY'S AIR FORCE?? DIDN'T THINK THEY HAD THE BALLS??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Victory[FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 3:01 PM

Sakkers said police would introduce round-the-clock surveilance of Islamic sites in the town of about 200,000 which has five main mosques.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at November 8, 2004 3:03 PM

Plane crash in detorit lots of mussis there?? and remember they were a blue state??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 3:15 PM

Love what Rumsfeld said?
Okay it is not an opption to give safe harbor to Monsters who cut peoples heads off!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 3:19 PM

Jacques Chirac needs to be replaced. Does'nt the French presidental elections come around again in 2007? French people vote this prick out and send him packing.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 3:20 PM

Thus, we demand that all bookstores ignore such scare tactics and make Mr. Winn’s book readily available, in accordance with customer demand.

http://www.petitiononline.com/islam999/petition.html

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 03:33 PM

Another thing to do is buy the book for all you know as a present for the holydays Chirstian or Jew or Hindo or Buditest or Aithest buy the book for all you know this is not Europe we don't stop freedom of speach not even M.Moore??

Strike Back in a way we all can!!

If you can not afford the book go to the web sight and down load on to disk a part of the book do not let them win!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
They build houses well in GA. plane crashes into a house and the roof still in tac!!

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 3:47 PM

DC Watson, please keep that link for the petition shown on each Jihadwatch and Dhimmiwatch. I don't want to see the link lost or forgotten.

There were 212 signatures when I first saw it, and now there are 1,300 odd signatures. Please keep putting the link on each day, so that more and more can see it.

Remember, that there are 250,000 hits each day on this site, so there are a lot more people who are able to sign it.

And I'm looking forward to the day when there is a demonstration held on the right to criticise Islam.

When will that be organised I wonder?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 8, 2004 3:58 PM

There was a piss christ which stirred controversy. Wouldn't it be great if there was a "piss Koran" with the Koran in a container of urine.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 8, 2004 4:02 PM

How clueless are those who call this "vigilantism."
Your response is exactly what the terrorists want.
Congratulations, you've just made their job easier and my life worth a little less.

You might choose to wake up and realize we are in a WORLD WAR for our very survival.

Survival wars are not won behind a keyboard claiming moral superiority whilst crying "two wrongs don't make a right."

Wars are won by killing the enemy. The Jihadists know this and act on it.

Please wake up. Soon.

Posted by: Itai at November 8, 2004 4:07 PM

I was # 1412. Can we hope to see Naseem or 'hatshepsut' sign this petetion?

Posted by: Gary at November 8, 2004 4:09 PM

Now there's over 1400 signatures. Thanks to all. I agree with Catherine, we should all purchase copies of this book and give it to our loved ones for CHRISTMAS, and HANUKKAH.....

Please forward the link to all you know and let's shut this whiney Muslim crybaby crap down..

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 4:12 PM

I was outraged this past Easter when a Islamic show I found one night was running a series of educational pieces about how Christians
were fooled by a fake Jesus being replaced on the cross and appearing to people later and claiming it was a resurection.
The show ran Saturday's leading up to Easter and was a direct attempt to mock Christians as worshipping a false messiah,so far I have yet to see any show where Muslims are mocked in that fasion.
It appears that death threats are the tool for Muslims to suppress any free thought or criticising of the Quran,I can understand the claim that Mohammed's 9 year old wife might be acceptible in that time but Muslims current knowledge and standards of pedophilia should
prevent them from exalting and praising Muhammed.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 8, 2004 4:14 PM

1462 now.
We must not let the islam fear tactic silence us.

Posted by: dby at November 8, 2004 4:23 PM

1466 now.......We can knock these pukes back into the stone age in a matter of a few hours. Please send to all you know and ask them to sign.

It's time to show Islam that they will never dominate the civilized world baby.....

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 4:26 PM

Well, here we have it. As previously prognosticated, we see the absurdity factor in full swing. Muslim commits atrocity, citizens respond (albiet semi-inappropriately) and the state ends up protecting who? Holland is reliable test lab for what will play out in all western countries. Count on it, the dissolution of all western governments is inevitable. They'll go down before abdicating their liberal creed, no matter how many innocents are slaughter by muslims. Defending the imported terrorist perpetrators instead of its citizens is sending the average man in Europe over the top, at this rate Slobodan Milosovec will be running Europe in two years.

Posted by: newtopia at November 8, 2004 4:28 PM

I just ordered two of the book from Amazon (buy two and shiping is free). If you can afford it, do it - the thing companies care MOST about is the bottom line, and what sells.

Posted by: CGW at November 8, 2004 4:35 PM

Wars are won by killing the enemy. The Jihadists know this and act on it.

Please wake up. Soon.

Posted by: Itai at November 8, 2004 04:07 PM

I agree!!!

They are not the only ones who know how to fool people Mr. Spencer asked us to play nice and we are some better than others??

me I made no comment? of disaprovale
Just pointed out that it was the mussis who did it to themselves to make us feel sorry for them which I don't!!

I have seen the monsters in action and heard nothing from other mulsums again and again the kill then say feel sorry for the killers I'm a redneck and believe in hanging the killers from the tallest tree!!

I believe in what our Grandparents did in WW2 with Bombing and Dropping the Nukes on Japan !!

And we Will forgive ourselves for what the Islamic Terrorist and their Supports make us do Like our Grandparents did!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courahe to stay the course to Victory to Defeat Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
What Mulsums Believe??

Qur’an 49:9 “If two parties among the Believers fall into fighting, make peace: but if one becomes aggressive, then fight against the one that transgresses until it complies.”

DO NOT BE FOOLED THE WORLD IS WAKING UP SO NOW THEY TRY TO CHANGE TACTICS??

Tabari VIII:142 “The Messenger made peace with them on condition that the Zoroastrians should be required to pay the jizyah tax [so onerous, it’s akin to economic suicide] that one should not marry their women.”

UN GOLBOL WARMING YES THIS IS A TAX??THE WAR ON POVERTY IN MULSUM LANDS WHO ARE FILTHY RICH AND THEY WANT TO TAX THE WORLS THROUGH THE UN WHO RUNS THE UN BUT THE ARAB LEAGE??

Tabari VIII:163 “The Prophet said, ‘I think you will see Abu Sufyan [the leading Meccan merchant] come to strengthen the pact and extend the term.’”

Ishaq:543 “Abu Sufyan went to Muhammad in Medina to affirm the peace treaty, but Muhammad refused to speak to him.”

Tabari VIII:164 “Sufyan went to Abu Bakr and asked him to intercede, but he refused. When Sufyan asked Umar to help [avert war], he replied, ‘No way. By Allah, if I had only ant grubs, I would fight you with them! Ali said, ‘Woe to you, Sufyan. When the Messenger has determined a thing it is useless for anyone to talk to him.’”

THERE IS NO PLEASING THEM THEY WANT WAR!!

Tabari VIII:165 “There is nothing that you can do to make peace with him.”

THEIR BOOK NOT MINE??

Ishaq:544 “Muhammad commanded the people to prepare for the foray [raid, incursion, sortie, attack, or assault]. The Messenger informed his troops that he was going to Mecca. He ordered them to prepare themselves and ready their equipment quickly. He said, ‘O Allah, keep spies and news from the Quraysh until we take them by surprise in their land.’”

I BELEIVE THIS IS WHAT THEY DO AND LOOKS LIKE IT HAS ALMOST WORKED IN EUROPE BUT THE REDNECK AMERICANS HAD TO SLAP THEM AWAKE??

Tabari VIII:182 “Allah had enabled Muhammad to take the persons of the Quraysh by force, giving him power over them so they were his booty. Their lives were now his spoil.”

THIS IS HAPPENING IN HOLLAND THEY HAVE BEEN INVADED AGAIN IN JUST 60 YRS WILL THE FIGHT THIS TIME BEFORE IT IS TO LATE??

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 4:47 PM

DCWatson-
1537 signatures now...

Posted by: Mike at November 8, 2004 4:50 PM

hope you all read o few of the books for sell on that sight before you sign your name again buy the book in a store near you or on line where you trust??

Sorry D.C.Watson??

I aint into dateing no mulsum??

Part Of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory [FREEDOM] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 5:12 PM

An eye for an eye!

Vigilantiism does take over when Government fails to provide an adequate response and if ANYONE fails to recognise that islam is vile then they had better just stand by and let the peole exact justice.

Anyone who would look at me eye to eye and actuall want to kill me but are too chicken to do it face to face should all perish and I would like to "SHAHEED" them.

AM YISRAEL CHAI
YKWH AKBAR

Posted by: Chuck at November 8, 2004 5:43 PM

This thread is so long that I forgot who originally said it, but wouldn't it be a great idea, if a Ramadan barbeque was held in a public place for the general public?

That would be one way of showing how we feel towards Islam, and a way to get people out there who are anti-Islam, but who feel isolated in their opposition to Islam.

I think that Ramadan is finished this year, but maybe next year?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 8, 2004 5:44 PM

i signed ,,i was 1663

mark

Posted by: mark7762 at November 8, 2004 5:48 PM

please see: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003840.php#comments

Ana

Posted by: biker at November 8, 2004 6:17 PM

I signed also. Over 1700. Amendment 1 covers God, Allah, Jehovah, and every damn thing!

Posted by: Kirk at November 8, 2004 6:23 PM

Leveller

'Scholar' advises on manner of beheadings, apparently electric saws are more humane and therefore more pleasing to Allah [Satan].

http://siteinstitute.org/terrorismlibrary/communique/communique_1097189624.pdf

Posted by: breadwinner at November 8, 2004 6:38 PM

While I condemn such vigilantism, did anyone notice that the muslim school attacked in Eindhoven was named after a certain Tariq ibn Ziyad (spellings may vary) - I hope this isn't the Berber general who lead the Muslim conquest of Visigothic Spain in 711 AD. That would smack a little too much of an aspiring islamicist triumphalism now, wouldn't it?

Posted by: fieldvole at November 8, 2004 6:45 PM

Good job all....Catherine, this isn't about dating muslims, it's about shutting their whining down. Your e-mail will be private if you sign the petition.....I wouldn't lead you into trouble.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 8, 2004 6:45 PM

http://siteinstitute.org/terrorismlibrary/communique/communique_1097189624.pdf

Posted by: biker at November 8, 2004 6:51 PM

Oh my god, i mean: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003840.php#comments

Posted by: biker at November 8, 2004 6:53 PM

In Western states, there is compact with citizens that the state will protect citizens, and the citizens will give up vigilante action. Though there is no excuse for vigilante action, it is the state that has broken its end of the deal. It is not surprising that ordinary Dutch feel that they need to take action themselves. In a way this is good, as it reminds the state of its obligations and duty. Else we have nothing but anarchy.

Posted by: DP111 at November 8, 2004 7:50 PM

http://www.genoeg.nu/

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1286272004

The murder has made allies of both freewheeling liberals and traditional church-goers who normally condemn the nation’s drug culture and sexual licence.

SOMETHING THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST DON’T UNDERSTAND?? Thank God Amen

It said: "Muslims will have to learn that, in a democracy, religion, too, is open to criticism - this applies to Islam no less than to Christianity. Theo van Gogh, in this respect, always purposefully went to the limits of decency.

The rising tension in the Netherlands has led increasingly to calls from white Dutch people for Muslims either to accept Western ways or leave the country.
Prior to the killing, a poll found that a third of Dutch people felt threatened by Islam in their midst.

Barry Madlener, a councillor in Rotterdam, where half the population is foreign-born - many from Muslim countries - said: "If you say: ‘I reject the Western lifestyle and I don’t want to fit in your way,’ then I say: ‘Keep away.’

THEY JUST DON’T GET IT??
Justice minister Piet Hein Donner, regarded as a stern Calvinist with little in common with the ultra-permissive outlook personified by Van Gogh said: "If this is what has happened to this man, who did nothing but express his opinion, then one can no longer live decently in this land."

YEA THEY ARE RIGHT WELCOME TO WHAT THEY DID IN KOSOVO AND NOW TRY TO DO IN MASIDONIA [GREECE] !!
The Dutch cabinet, meanwhile, has made it clear it is considering new ways to tackle Muslim extremists, including stripping criminals with dual citizenship of their Dutch nationality, increasing police powers and boosting the budget of the security service.

HOW ABOUT REINACTING THE DEATH PLENTY??
Gerrit Zalm, the deputy prime minister, says the cabinet also considered taking action against a mosque in Amsterdam regularly attended by Mohammed B.
NOW YOUR TALKING!!
The film, Submission, may have been only 10 minutes long, but it caused uproar in the country when it was broadcast at the end of August.

BUT BEHEADING TAPES SELL LIKE WILD CAKES IN THE MULSUM WORLD??

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”

Mahammad forced himself on her. This is how it happened:

Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Muhammad raped a baby. I guess you are so proud of worshiping a pig like that, huh Arxos? lets not forgt, muhammad used the moon to measure seasons, so she was not nine yet, only 8 years old.

NO FREEDOM, NO CHOICE:

Qur’an 3:19 “Lo! religion with Allah (is) Surrender.”
SO THAT WOMAN IN THE FILM WAS RIGHT??

Ishaq:322 “Allah said, ‘Do not turn away from Muhammad when he is speaking to you. Do not contradict his orders. And do not be a hypocrite, one who pretends to be obedient to him and then disobeys him. Those who do so will receive My vengeance. You must respond to the Apostle when he summons you to war.”
THIS IS WHAT THE Islamic terrorist are using??

Qur’an 8:24 “O Believers! Answer Allah and (His) Messenger when he calls you to that which will give you life [martyrdom].... Fear the affliction and trial that awaits those who do not obey. Allah is severe.”
THEY ARE WRONG THOSE WHO FOLLOW LOOK AT arafat,saddam,ubl??? ALL YELLOW COWARDS AND THOSE WHO FOLLOW ARE IN HELL!!

DECEPTION:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”
SO WHEN THEY WANT US TO STOP FIGHTING AS BEFORE WE CAN NOT UNTILL THE MONSTERS WHO CUT PEOPLES HEADS OFF ARE DEAD!!
INTOLERANCE:

Qur’an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

US MARINE SAID HELL IS COMEING THEY BEEN HITTING US FOR WHAT 8 MO NOW IS PAY BACK!!!

DEMONS & DEVILS:

Muslim:C14B39N6759 “Aisha, the wife of Allah’s Apostle, reported: ‘Allah’s Messenger left my apartment during the night. Then he came and he saw me in an agitated state.’ He said: “Aisha, what has happened to you? Do you feel jealous?” I said: “How can it be that a girl like me would not feel jealous in regard to a husband like you? Thereupon Allah’s Messenger said: “It is your devil who has come to you.” I said: “Allah’s Messenger, is there a devil with me?” He said: “Yes.” I said: “Is there a devil attached to everyone?” He said: “Yes.” I said: “Allah’s Messenger, is there a devil attached to you also?” He said: “Yes.”’”

WHAT CAN YOU SAY??

Qur’an 67:5 “Your gaze turns back dazed and tired. We have adorned the lowest skies with lamps, and We have made them missiles to drive away the devils and against the stone Satans, and for them We have prepared the doom of Hell and the penalty of torment in the most intense Blazing Fire.”

THE NEW ARMY OF IRAQ AND THE US MARINES ARE DRIVING THE DIVELS OUT TO HELL AND THEY AINT COMING BACK CAUSE THIS DOG IS ON THE HUNT PEOPLE OF IRAQ MUT HELP HUNT THESE DEVILS WHO CUT OFF MENS HEADS AND RAPE CHILDREN AND WOMEN!!

Qur’an 3:145 “No person can ever die except by the permission of Allah, the term being fixed as by writing.”

AND THE US MARINES!!!

Qur’an 66:1 “O Prophet! Why forbid yourself that which Allah has made lawful to you? You seek to please your consorts. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Kind. Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

IF THE IRAQI PEOPLE FIGHT WITH THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST IT IS HELL FOR THEM !!

Qur’an 70:28 “Preserve their chastity except with their wives and the slave girls they possess—for which there is no blame.”

SOMEONE SAID THEY DIDN’T BELIEVE IN SLAVES??

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some of its people captive, including Safiyah, and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”

WAKE UP EUROPE??

Ishaq:535 “The women began to cry after learning about Ja’far’s death. Disturbed, Muhammad told Abd-Rahman to silence them. When they wouldn’t stop wailing, Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Go and tell them to be quiet, and if they refuse throw dust in their mouths.’”

NICE GUY??

Qur’an 64:14 “Believers, truly, among your wives and your children there are enemies for you: so beware of them! ... Your wealth and your children are only a trial.”

AND WHO WOULD TELL YOU TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN AND LOVE ONES THIS CAN’T BE RIGHT NO GOD OF PEACE WOULD EVER SAY SUCH A THING? SO THE QURAN CAN’T BE RIGHT??
Qur’an 8:28 “And know that your property and your children are just a temptation.”

NUTS
Qur’an 9:23 “Believers, take not for friends your fathers and your brothers if they love disbelief above belief. If you do, you do wrong. Say: If your fathers, your sons, your families, your wives, relatives and property which you have acquired, and the slackness of trade which you fear and dwellings which you like, are dearer to you than Allah and His Messenger and striving hard, fighting in His Cause, then wait till Allah brings about His torment.”

YEA saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] ,Arafat [yellow coward cursed with worms or is it aids?] ubl [YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] look who follow him the taliban and they are no more??
Ishaq:572 “When the Apostle learned that one of the Meccans had died in the battle, he said, ‘Allah curse him!’ He used to hate the Quraysh.”

So god has cursed those who follow him? Guess the left this one out??

Tabari VIII:187 “The [sixty-two-year old] Messenger of Allah married Mulaykah. She was young and beautiful. One of the Prophet’s wives came to her and said, ‘Are you not ashamed to marry a man who killed your father during the day he conquered Mecca?” She therefore took refuge from him.”

THAT IS HIDDING FROM HIM??

Tabari VIII:117 “Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself. Muhammad gave Dihyah her two cousins instead.” Ishaq:511 “When he protested, wanting to keep Safiyah for himself, the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims.”
Bukhari:V5B59N524 “The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet’s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?’”
GREEDY BUGER
Bukhari:V4B52N143/V5B59N523 “When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed [by Muhammad], so Allah’s Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.’”

RAPED HER??
Ishaq:311 “The Apostle saw Ummu’l when she was a baby crawling before his feet and said, ‘If she grows up, I will marry her.’ But he died before he was able to do so.”

LUCKY FOR HER??

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Ishaq:281 “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.”
Tabari IX:128 “When the Prophet married Aisha she very young and not yet ready for consummation.”
Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, ‘You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.”’

BOOKS TALK FOR THEMSELVES??
Tabari IX:137 “Allah granted Rayhanah of the [Jewish] Qurayza to His Messenger as booty [but only after she had been forced to watch him decapitate her father and brother, seen her mother hauled off to be raped, and her sisters sold into slavery].”

WHAT A NICE GUY??
Tabari IX:139 “Layla approached the Prophet while his back was to the sun and clapped him on his shoulder. He asked her who it was and she replied, ‘I am the daughter of one who competes with the wind. I am Layla. I have come to offer myself to you.’ He replied, ‘I accept.’” [Layla shared her story with her parents.] “They said, ‘What a bad thing you have done! You are a self-respecting girl, but the Prophet is a womanizer.’”

AGAIN THIS IS THEIR BOOK AND REMEMBER THEY KILLED 1200 PEOPLE IN NIGER FOR SAYING WHAT THEIR BOOKS SAY??

Qur’an 9:97 “The Arabs of the desert are the worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger.”

Tabari II:11 “Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”

CONFUSSED??
WOMEN IN ISLAM:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

LIKE DOMESTIC ANIMALS??

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

BETTER NOT SAY THAT TO AN AMERICAN WOMAN??

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

SO HE HATED WOMEN??

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]

THIS IS THEIR BOOK!!

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

THIS IS THEIR BOOK??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
Watson who sponsers this sight?

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 7:57 PM

Refreshing and out-of-character as the sentiments expressed here may be, are we just looking at another pending "termination with extreme prejudice"?

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=13708&name=Imam+urges+broadcast+of+Van+Gogh+film

Posted by: b C at November 8, 2004 7:59 PM

newtopia:Slobodan Milosovec will be running Europe in two years.

Isnt Slobodan Milosovec already in the Netherlands?

Posted by: DP111 at November 8, 2004 7:59 PM

Can anyone who is a muslim actually defend this??????????????

WOMEN IN ISLAM:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

LIKE DOMESTIC ANIMALS??

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

BETTER NOT SAY THAT TO AN AMERICAN WOMAN??

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

SO HE HATED WOMEN??

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]

THIS IS THEIR BOOK!!

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Thx C

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 8:07 PM

Once again, I see threats of violence at this site (incitement to "teach" lessons by bombing religious institutions)

In America and in most constitutional democracies, there is something called "equal protection in the law". There is also a federal statute which prohibits the use of electronic media to issue threats of violence.

It's such a simple thing to trace IP addresses these days and report federal crimes that cross state boundaries.

Mr. Spencer has a good site here. Use it for what it was intended, not as a coven for fomenting vigilantism. You'd be the first to whine if this site was taken offline.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 8:16 PM

Mr. Spencer has a good site here. Use it for what it was intended, not as a coven for fomenting vigilantism. You'd be the first to whine if this site was taken offline.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 08:16 PM

sounds like you make the threats??

Just putting up whats in your book??
If this makes you sick better look at the Beheading tapes your people put out in the name of your Faith??

And this is America and the Hate speach comes from the Mulsum world and we can't shut that down just like we could not shut down M.Moore but M.Moore is not killing People or CUTTING MENS HEADS OFF ISLAMIC TERRORIST ARE AND WHO IS IT KILLING IN THILAND MULSUMS AND WHO IS IT KILLING IN HOLLAND IS MULSUMS AND WHO IS IT KILLING IN SUDAN MULSUMS AND WHO WAS IT KILLING IN REWANDA MULSUMS AND WHO IS IT KILLING IN THE IVORY COAST AGAIN MULSUMS AND THE LIST GOES ON AND ON AND WHO WAS IT WHO KILL AND RAPED ALL THOSE RUSSIAN CHILDREN MULSUMS WHO IS KILLING THE IRAQI PEOPLE AGAIN MULSUMS WHO IS KILLING IN KASMEAR AGAIN MULSUMS AND IN INDIA AGAIN MULSUMS AND IN ISRAEL AGAIN MULSUMS

SO WHERE IS THE HATE SPEACH JUST THE FACTS MAN!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat give them Strength to Stand and Fight Amen

God Bless the countries who have Heros Amen
Pitty the countries who need them??

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 8:33 PM

"Imam Abdullah Haselhoef said not screening the film would give the signal that murder or terrorism pays."

Haselhoef? Didn't he used to be in 'Baywatch'?

Joke aside, this imam sounds somewhat more reasonable and sensible than the usual. If there were more like him there might be forty less armed conflicts going on in the world today.

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 8:44 PM

enter 'lil miss cheerful.

Posted by: cross at November 8, 2004 8:46 PM

Catherine, hateshutup is not worth bothering with. I will however point out to the liar that there are very Few people saying the vigilatism is a good thing- but they are saying that your fellow travelers are bringing it on themselves, worldwide.

By the way, hateshutup, have you signed the petition to allow that book to be published? Do You believe in free speech?

Posted by: Gary at November 8, 2004 8:47 PM

"enter 'lil miss cheerful."

Yep, I heard they were making another
Hannibal Lector movie.

Perfect casting.

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 8:49 PM

Cross, the indefensible (lies) needs no defending. This is a nice but cowardly little "holy war" you are waging against Islam here.

You should leave the cover of the internet and address your concerns (which are also fake and bogeus) with the many islamic institutions readily available to you.

You can, for instance, send your questions and concerns to:

http://www.islamonline.net
http://www.islamicity.org
http://cair-net.org
http://www.isna.net

Or, contact your local mosque, many have websites. The point is, it is cowardly to sit behind the cover of the internet and spread deliberate lies and contorted truths about the beliefs of others.

Just so you won't project your cowardice on me, I'll endulge your chronology THIS TIME:

(Your quranic quote)

WOMEN IN ISLAM:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

(The actual quranic quote, available in several languages, including English, at
http://quran.al-islam.com)

Touba 9:113 - It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans (idolaters), even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

(Your quote)

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

(Actual quranic quote)

Since you have now referenced Chapter 1, Verse 280, Chapter one of the quran as anyone knows who has read an authentic quran, in every translation, is AL FATIHA It is one of the SHORTEST CHAPTERS IN THE QURAN, and it reads:

[1] In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[2] Praise be to GOD, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

[3] Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

[4] Master of the Day of Judgment.

[5] Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek,

[6] Show us the straight way,

[7] The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

If you are referring to Verse 280 of Touba, Touba only has 128 VERSES.

(Your quote)

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

This is not the qur'an. This is from haddith and it is presented out of context. Probably too complex a matter to discuss with you based on your present mindset, but I'll give it a shot

Many women became the paramours and consorts of men other than than husbands (took lovers) and carried out secret liaisons behind their husbands backs (as was frequently the case when bedouin men went off for trade or battle). Such women were condemned for their "ungratefulness". A hard concept I know for you to grasp, since infidelity NEVER happens in current society.... riigght.

(Your quote)

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]

(The actual quranic quote)

Nisaa 4:43 O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say, nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

I'm really glad you picked this particular verse, because it exemplifies the commandment from God for muslims to be clean (wash themselves before prayer, remove feces, urine, sperm and blood from their bodies). YES, that's what "contact with women" meant. If you read the rest of this chapter, such as the following verse, you would know women are revered, not disdained, in the quran.

Nisaa 4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single Person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; fear God, through Whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) THE WOMBS (that bore you): for God ever watches over you.

You clearly see here God showing MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL, and that the WOMB of the mother is revered, so that means the MOTHER IS REVERED.

Too bad you didn't research any of those ahaddith from Muhammad that say that the one who deserves THE MOST RESPECT from the child is THE MOTHER. He repeated this THREE TIMES in one haddith to emphasize the degree of respect to which mothers are entitled above the father, and even Muhammad himself.

(your quote)

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

(the real quote)

Nisaa 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

Did you just miss that last part? .. "or until there is ordained some other way"? And this does not mean starve them.. that was YOUR interpretation. Where did you see that? Do you think she can't eat just because she's in the house?

In context, if the woman has committed a lewd act (take your pick) and there are witnesses to that act that can't be refuted, then she is to be in her house where she can be lewd all she wants, but not in public. That was 1,400 years ago, and as it clearly states, other means and provisions could evolve to handle such situations, and they have.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 8:52 PM

No, Gary, I didn't sign the petition, I don't care what some loonie toon says. He has no power over God and so he is insignificant.

Let it be published, matters not to me.

But there are others not quite so tolerant. And so if he wishes to incite violence among the feeble minded, that's his ball of wax. I would feel the same way about someone printing a book that says Mary, mother of Jesus, was a prostitute, and there have been many such parodies, equally as sick ans twisted.

Pretty risky business.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 8:55 PM

Yet many of the radical Islamist web sites that show mens decapitations are allowed to continue business as usual. If my a man had ben decapitated in my city, in my state, in my country, our people would not be afraid to act.

Posted by: vrkbarracuda at November 8, 2004 8:56 PM

Hatshepsut makes a good point above regarding the nature of incitement to violence. As I would be the first to defend her/his right to free speech and be a whiner on her behalf, I also come to the defense, for what it's worth, of those who express their frustrations in terms of active antipathy toward Islamic terrorism.

That said, I would like again to point out that in legitimate states, citizens have the right to elect representatives of their own choosing; and to abdicate their responsiblities thereby pushing the active minority into extra-legal defense is not a solution one should be discussing over the internet.

Our opponents are killers. We've known that for centuries. In our day it is now too obvious to all by their sympathizers that Islam is a direct military threat to life as we have created it in the Western world. If the Majority of our fellow citzens refuse to shake off their apathy and sentimentality regarding this threat, if they continue to pander and re-elect or refuse to unelect representatives of the true nature of the nations, then we will indeed have the true desire of the population itself: 500 years of Moslem slavery. We can see this clearly. So far we can still write about it and discuss it on the internet. But there are limits. Not only will our opponents murder us on city streets in broad daylight, our governments will defend their exclusive right to the use of force. Before we go too far in advocating vengence, we should consider the better alternative of organizing for the posiblity that in the future we might have the last line of defense when the government is by then too weak to defend us at all. These are things better discussed in neutral cities such as Sophia or Mexico D.F. where our polite talk of defense will go uncared about.

Finally, the question of bombing the door off a mosque in the middle of the night is one of its effectiveness. Tit for tat, I think we came up losers again. The point to be clear on is the nature of terrorism, which bombing of mosques is a clear case is it a tactic in the pursuit of a larger goal, or is it a strategy that one is committed to for its own sake? Did the bombing of a school in the Netherlands make sense in terms of a chess game? There's an important difference between knocking off a lot of pawns and captuing the king. Without a strategy we are wasting our time.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 8, 2004 8:56 PM

Blowing up a muslim school not only isn't ehtical/humane it gives a powerful propaganda boost to islamists. Islamists WANT atrocities to be done against them...they WANT to be attacked. That way they can justify their Jihad against us.

If the school targeted was teaching violence then there must be another "lawful" sanction to be used to combat this instead.

If we level all the laws in the land to catch even the devil what will we do then with all the laws being leveled flat? How would we protect ourselves with the choas that would result.

Posted by: obl r us at November 8, 2004 9:09 PM

Sad,Sad world and so many nuts, all one can say.

Posted by: Fred Dawes at November 8, 2004 9:21 PM

hatshepsut wrote:

"...the WOMB of the mother is revered, so that means the MOTHER IS REVERED.

Too bad you didn't research any of those ahaddith from Muhammad that say that the one who
deserves THE MOST RESPECT from the child is THE MOTHER. He repeated this THREE TIMES in one
haddith to emphasize the degree of respect to which mothers are entitled above the father, and
even Muhammad himself."

And now Reality (as reported on DW recently):

'Hakki Demir in trial for manslaughter appeared at the Adana court to hear the verdict. He claimed
to have killed his mother, Sakine Demir, to clean the family’s honor: “My mom was prostituting in
Istanbul. Everyone was talking about her ugly deeds. I decided to clean our honor. I found my mom
at my aunt’s in Adana. I found her sleeping and stabbed her in the heart twice. She woke up and
tried to scream. I covered her mouth and suffocated her. I stabbed her over and over again. I did
it for my family’s honor. I regret it. But I had to do it.”

The court’s decision to sentence him to life time was reduced to first 36 years and then to 20
years of jail time due to the traditional basis of the murder.'

Actually his mother wasn't prostituting herself. She went to stay with her sister for a rest.
But just doing something that little bit independent was enough for her to get her throat slit and
stabbed 17 times....Not unlike Theo van Gogh in fact.

Note he got a reduced sentence because of the TRADITIONAL BASIS of the murder.

Do we see a pattern emerging here.

(Or do we call ourselves hatshepsut?)

And BTW what kind of academic in the U.S. spells 'bogus' with an 'e' anyway?
Let's see...A bogus one I guess.

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 9:24 PM

I don't fear that our governments will fail the people, I fear the people will fail our governments, that the lack of defense of our nations will lead to the demise of my liberty. We have every right to change our elected representives if we choose to do so. If we don't, then I for one will not be satisfied with going with the flow to oblivion.

It's suspect to read that one man is willing to save the nation from itself, and that by committing outrages against the community. Yes, that smacks of fanaticism and intolerance, the very things we should be fighting against. But to rely entirely on the good sense of the people at large to defend our nation, of which each of us is a part, is to abdictate one's responsibilities to the state itself, not to impose anarchy and destruction on it.

If we refuse to accept the contingency that the Western world will by apathy go down to slavery, if we do nothing to plan for the eventuality of slavery imposed on us from outside, then we do nothing now as free citizens exercizing our rights.

If we don't actively promote our freedoms, if we gradually give up our rights peicemeal, then in the final stages our fight will be total, the casualty rate will be immeasurable, and the whole thing would have been easily prevented by a bit of prudent vigilance.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 8, 2004 9:25 PM

Good comments, and please take note.

Thought I don't agree with all your assessments (I'm referring to SonofWalker now, who presented a very salient, well presented argument, and OBL's comments), I have to respect your feelings as well as your beliefs.

This is called "dialogue". This is usually where an exchange of ideas occurs.

I posted some questions here yesterday for a survey I'm doing, and I won't repost them again so as not to be accused of "spamming" but I've concluded so far that this is a closed system of thought, where theories evolve based on inductive reasoning and not deduction.

But there are many factors that influence that methodology. Some people here are open to new information, others are afraid of it. Some are here trying to get a civil war going against christians and muslims (as if there could be a winner in such a contest.. has there EVER been?)

What do I want? Principally to understand.. what makes you perceive what you do, and hopefully you will be curious enough to want to know the same from me. Most here just want to slap a big fat "terrorist", "jihadist" label on anything that smells "muslim" or "arabic". You miss a golden opportunity here if you do that with me... a chance for honest dialogue with someone capable of thinking lucidly.

I won't be here long... my research here is done, so take advantage of the opportunity, or email me at info@amwanet.org.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:31 PM

one with a pretty fast typing speed, Benefux.

You see, I'm not anal-retentive and running spell check on every post. You'd be surprised, my friend, of who and what I am, if you but knew.

But I digress. You must choose. Do you want to castigate Muhammad and the religion of Islam, or do you want to castigate current modern-day practices, and all the variants of Islam that have arose in the past 1,400 years?

You choose the track, and I'll respond according, but don't mix "pomegrantes" with "dates".

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:33 PM

Please also note, that I am a muslim, I am an American (most have figured that out I hope) I love my religion, I know muslims are not perfect, I know the world is full of evil people, but I won't judge all people by the actions of a few disaffected people who act badly or do evil deads.

I also can tolerate other people's beliefs, and even other people's insults, because the example of the prophet I follow, Muhammad, did the same, and suffered far worst.

This is the heart and soul of being a muslim, and I am open to anyone, even in THIS group, who wants a friendly exchange.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:38 PM

Oh, again, one famous ahaddith from the life of Muhammad says that there would come a time BENEFLUX, when the congregation of muslims (the ummah of Muhammad) would be foreign to him, the even Muhammad himself WOULD NOT RECOGNIZE THEM.

We are in this time, and many of these prophecies have come to pass, and many more shall also be revealed.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:41 PM

'I also can tolerate other people's beliefs, and even other people's insults, because the example of the prophet I follow, Muhammad, did the same, and suffered far worst.' ~ hatshepsut

Then sign the petition so the book can go ahead. Prove your tolerance.

http://www.petitiononline.com/islam999/petition.html

Posted by: Gary at November 8, 2004 9:43 PM

sorry. BENELUX.. I didnot mean to insult you and was not trying to twist your name.. just didn't have on my glasses *hahahah*

Muslims are also polite ..

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:43 PM

I will not sign a petition to promote a book that degrade my beliefs. Are you nuts?

I also will not sign a petition to suppress his book. I don't give a farthing about him!

But let me share another secret with you. Do you know it is reported that OUR SOLDIERS have been desecrating the qurans of prisoners in their keep in Iraq? Doing such unpardonable things as URINATING on them, and masterbating on them?

Now, regardless of how anyone FEELS about another persons beliefs, don't you think that sends the wrong message to the iraqi people?

The kinds of things I've seen posted here, the hate-speech, may be getting read by some of our soldiers as a GREEN LIGHT to go to Iraq and deeecrate mosques and urinate on qurans.

Is this what we want?

How can you win this war if you become a terrorist yourself?

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:47 PM

ok... people.. nice comments really, but I must leave and maybe I will try to catch up with Spencer's news tomorrow. He really has some good stuff here.

I usually get my news from non traditional sources, so it fits in nicely

Hotep.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 9:49 PM

hatshepsut, I apreciate your civility. I just want to say something devoid of hatred. I am just curious about what you said about the prophet Mohammad being tolerant to those who insulted him. According to several well respected hadiths the Prophet Mohammad murdered and approved of the murder of several people who did nothing but critisise him. They didn't physically harm anyone, they just critisised the prophet. This isn't a good beahvioural example to follow.

I respect your faith but are you correct according to historical accounts that the prophet was peaceful and tolerant. The historical record does not support your view. These accounts of the prophet are in your own holy texts...they are not written by westerners to discredit Islam.

Posted by: obl r us at November 8, 2004 9:56 PM

Obl rus, there are 1,000 upon 1,000 of haddiths with different gradiations of validation, different translators. There is an ocean of commentary on the qur'an.

There is something called the sunnah, the life of Muhammad, his actual practices and sayings, and then there is interpretation of the sunnah.

We can start by looking at one or two of the references you are referring to... it doesn't have to be done here as I know some will attack you for even talking to me. You can email them to me and I will be happy to discuss them with you.

I can honestly say I know of not a single case where Muhammad himself ordered anyone killed for criticizing him. This is not even part of the shari'ah law today.

If you are referring to God commanding that Muhammad be held in high regard, I still can think of no instance where God ordered someone killed for insulting Muhammad. He was insulted throughout his life and almost killed many times by his enemy, so I hope you see my point.

However, I think you may be referring to fatwahs issued by scholars who love Muhammad to such a degree that they would order anyone killed who insulted him. That is the closest I can come to this at this point.

If you are referring to campaigns of war, again muslims are commanded in the quran not to fight as aggressors, but in self defense. Again, I know of no instance where Muhammad ordered someone killed for insulting him.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 10:05 PM

Perhaps I've missed the girl. I am certainly happy to engage in dialogue with others, often especially those I disagree with. Tonight, I'm sorry to say, I can do no more, being in the fifth, and I hope final day, of the flu.

I try to check back next day to read any comments others leave post, and if you don't get a quick response from me it's due to circumstances beyond my control, not from lack of interest. Tonight, I'm one sick fellow.

To end this evening's post let me state to all that though I do value our rights as free individuals to express themselves freely, short of incitement to violence--within reason-- I also must say that there does come a time when people of honest opinion differ to the point where those disagreements must be put aside for all parties to pick up arms in the defense of the Good. Only when the dialogue is closed will I be on the front lines of the fight against the slavery of the mind. So long as the dialogue continues, the arms remain hidden. My prophet is also a warrior, in some sense, perhaps only in that snse, like Mohammed himself: Socrates went to war in defense of the city and its people. Thank God he did more than that. But he did go to war, and he was a model I feel proud to imitate. Let the debate continue. Later, if it so chances, that we meet on the opposite sides of a greater conflict, I hope it's clear to at least some that I'm not at war to cause destruction, but as Bakunin wrote so pithily, to make constuction.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 8, 2004 10:09 PM

Yes, sonofwalker, you do write well, and I am feeling under the weather myself, and have tons to do and getting behind in my reading.

But I am glad you are an honest man and admit that your prophet was also a warrior, and I see Jesus that way, too, and believe me we respect Jesus and also await his second coming as a WARRIOR, not a lamb.

I'd be honored to be your friend (as did the great warrior, Salahuddin, to his friend, Richard the Lion Hearted). Another time, friend.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 10:15 PM

Apologies to you Hatshepsut if you have answered this before, but did you convert to Islam?

Posted by: fieldvole at November 8, 2004 10:15 PM

I was originially episcopalian, considered catholicism, and decided on Islam.

Posted by: hatshepsut at November 8, 2004 10:21 PM

"We are in this time, and many of these prophecies have come to pass, and many more shall also be revealed."

Tantalising. Please elucidate when you feel able.

Posted by: Benelux at November 8, 2004 10:23 PM

As long as violent atrocities continue against non-Muslims in the Islamic world, such attacks against Muslims in non-Muslim countries will only continue.

Posted by: Christian at November 8, 2004 10:24 PM

According though to the prohets first chronicler Al-Bukari, Mohammad did commit alot of atrocities. It is an improvement that you don't practice the practices as oultined in AL-Bukari's account. However many of your co-religionsts don't and alot of innocent people are dying because of this.

Frnakly I also disagree with alot of the statements in the Koran itself. I don't think that stoning adulterers to death is ethical...even more so since since women are not given equal weight in testifying under sharia law. I also am very much against killing lesbains and whipping homeosexuals as I know that their behaviour is accroding to current scintific knowledge due to early fetal brain developement. I also am against dismebering people for stealing. I am also against calling jews athe sons of apes and pigs. I am also against muslims having sexual rights to their slaves and their right to own slaves. I am also against non-muslims being forced to feel "subdued" and heavily taxed above the taxation paid by muslims.

It is due to such refernces in the Koran that I find it hard to beleive the prophet was a tolerant man. The dictates he states supposedly from god are brutal and inhumane.

If brutal and inhumane commandments come out of a mans mouth I can never trust what such a man says. I love humanity too much to do otherwise. Humanity deserves better.

Posted by: obl r us at November 8, 2004 10:55 PM

Did the bombing of a school in the Netherlands make sense in terms of a chess game? There's an important difference between knocking off a lot of pawns and captuing the king. Without a strategy we are wasting our time.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 8, 2004 08:56 PM

ONCE AGAIN THE MULSUMS BLEW THE DOOR!!
This is their way to make people feel sorry for them? Did it work? NO!!

The ? with all the arsionst around they would have burned it to the ground!! Like the Mulsums did in Germany the old Libary??

Hateusput is here to decive the people to make us see things that are not there here is what there book says maybe he reads another book?

I think he is from CAIR!!

WOMEN IN ISLAM:

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”

Qur’an 4:3 “If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth).”

Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”

Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]

Bukhari:V4B55N547 “The Prophet said, ‘But for the Israelis, meat would not decay, and if it were not for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands.’”

Qur’an 33:59 “Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and all Muslim women to draw cloaks and veils all over their bodies (screening themselves completely except for one or two eyes to see the way). That will be better.”

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Bukhari:V4B52N143/V5B59N523 “When we reached Khaybar, Muhammad said that Allah had enabled him to conquer them. It was then that the beauty of Safiyah was described to him. Her husband had been killed, so Allah’s Apostle selected her for himself. He took her along with him till we reached a place called Sad where her menses were over and he took her for his wife, consummating his marriage to her, and forcing her to wear the veil.’”

Bukhari:V5B59N524 “The Muslims said among themselves, ‘Will Safiyah be one of the Prophet’s wives or just a lady captive and one of his possessions?’”

Ishaq:593 “From the captives of Hunayn, Allah’s Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.”
Ishaq:185 “In hell I saw women hanging by their breasts. They had fathered bastards.”

Qur’an 24:31 “Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty except what (must) appear; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display them except to their husbands...”

Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. [And here’s the freedom-to-pimp card:] But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”

Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”
Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”

Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”

Qur’an 24:1 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”

Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

now he can try to change the color of the sky but it is what it is!!

We have seen around the world what these Monsters do KILL Rape Steal and the list goes on and on!!

America Will not simmit...

Europe has a choice and we hope they make the right one looks like they are coming t their sences??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Open the Eyes of the World to their Threat Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 8, 2004 10:56 PM

Hatshepsut,

mo is not a prophet
and if he were a prophet of god
i would kill myself

Posted by: dby at November 8, 2004 10:59 PM

Hatshepsut,
mo was a political force,
a military force,
a social force,
but never, ever, an ideal person,
he did not trust god
he resorted to violence
he was intoxicated with power.

Buddha gave up power
Christ had no interest in power
mo built an empire
the usual bloodthirsty way

is that really your ideal person ?

Posted by: dby at November 8, 2004 11:06 PM

the poetess is wild,
fire blazes in her eyes,
and shoots out in flames
her wrathful force is aimed
at the disgusting creature
with vile lies,deceitful claims,
who comes here and denies
the story of Asma bint Marwan,
the glory of her martyrdom,
in the kingdom of arabia . . .
mo and his evil twin allah
thought themselves rid of her
but they were wrong
for the strong will is never killed
and the heart fills with courage
and she rises again and again
from her deathbed, holding her child
and screaming like the wild banshee
I am Free.

Posted by: the poetess at November 8, 2004 11:10 PM

Now the muslims are getting a taste of their own medicine...
But since the dutch people has done all these attacks against "holy mosques",they have gravely insulted islam in the process,so ,according to the islamic doctrine regarding blasphemy,they all must be put to death by way of beheading.....
Interesting development,i hope all muslims,around the world take notice....once the ball starts rolling,nothing will be able to stop it.

Posted by: adela at November 8, 2004 11:11 PM

One dutch filmmaker was killed and the dutch people are sending a strong and clear signal to its muslim community...clean up your act or else.
3000 americans died on 9/11 and all our liberal media did was find excuses for the attacks. The american people did nothing at all.
Yes,we went to war in Afghanistan and in Iraq,but that was only because Bush was our president at the time of the attack;if it was a liberal such as Gore,we would probably still debating the issue together with the UN clowns.
But the american people ,the american street,did nothing.

Posted by: adela at November 8, 2004 11:17 PM

There are other ways to fight against islamic terrorism,such as street demonstrations,meetings with local officials and politicians,letters to government officials,law suits,pamphlets,tv documentaries to educate the public,talk radio ,books,newspapers articles etc.
But when all these actions fail,and when national security and national identity/survival is at stake,if the government is corrupt or blind,then and only then the public has the obligation to take matters into its own hands.

Posted by: adela at November 8, 2004 11:23 PM

These attacks will certainly not solve the problem,but at least they will bring islam into the spot light and under close scrutiny.

Posted by: adela at November 8, 2004 11:25 PM

Hatshepsut,

re a post yesterday from you
where you state that beheading was 'invented'
( your implication if not word ) by the Frenchman
whats his name.

Of course, nonsense.
your choice for a prophet, mo,
ordered the beheading of all the males
on the Bani Qurayzah tribe, a Jewish arab tribe,
after attacking them with no provocation,
beseiging them for 25 days,
accepting their surrender to his mercy,
he beheaded the males,
distributed the women amongst his followers.

BEHEADED
BEHEADED
BEHEADED

It is written he beheaded the first himself,
so unhappy where his cohorts at such butchery
that he had to show the way.

This is the person in whose footsteps you
have chosed to walk.

you are certainly a sick puppy.

Posted by: dby at November 8, 2004 11:26 PM

You suggest that that the basis for our contempt for Islam is "inductive reasoning" (a polite way of saying we are "narrow-minded"), but you are clueless as to the many paths by which we all came to feel contempt for your creed.

I have met many Muslims in my life. One is listed on the acknowledgements of my doctoral thesis. Another inherited my research article collection when I left the lab for a better job. They are as fine a people as any other I know.

I don’t base my disgust of Mohammed on the Muslims I knew. I base it on my reading of the Koran a few months after 9/11.

I didn’t read it to "cherry pick" it for objectionable quotes. On the contrary, I wanted to prove that it was no worse than the Old Testament. When I did come upon the suras that incited hatred, violence, and misogyny only then did my liberal paradigm of "each religion being good in its own way" fall to pieces.

This hasn’t changed my views towards my Muslim colleagues from work. How can I blame people who were indoctrinated since they were children? As someone lucky never to have been raised with that hateful creed, how can I ever feel qualified to lead them out? Such a task is best left to the ex-Muslims at www.faithfreedom.org. I do however reserve a great deal of suspicion and contempt for adults who convert to Islam because unlike their Arab counterparts, they should have the tools to know better.

Human nature can transcend and overlook hateful teachings. My biggest concern is that many good Muslims are useful idiots for an evil Muslim leadership that uses their financial and moral support for nefarious purposes. Worse still, their creed takes them so many steps closer to the slippery slope whereby they become terrorists.

Wake up and smell the coffee hatshepsut! Look at what Islam has done to the world. Look at what it has done the Arab mind. Stop being Mohammed’s footstool. Save yourself.

Posted by: Rublev at November 8, 2004 11:27 PM

I'm astonished that, after all this time, my fellow JWers are still so susceptable to taqiyya and kitman. Anyone even CONSIDERING engaging this "hatshepsut" person should go back and read all of the threads from Nov. 6 & 7 JW articles and examine some of the egregious comments it made.

Now you are being targeted as potential da'wa subjects, and yet you simply accept the goodwill of this troll at face value. I recommend that you first examine its now-discredited comments on other threads, Spencer's warnings against addressing it or answering it in any way, and remember the familiar patterns exhibited by other muslim trolls. First they will "clear up your misconceptions", and if they fail to accomplish that, they finally resort to threats about eternal hellfire if they don't manage to cut off our heads first.

Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of having to constantly point these patterns out. Most of you should know the drill by now.

Never believe anything that comes from islam, its apologists nor its defenders.

BTW, the troll is not American born and raised. Linguistic clues give it away.

Posted by: CGW at November 8, 2004 11:27 PM

'There is also a federal statute which prohibits the use of electronic media to issue threats of violence.' Posted by who else : hatshepsut

Fact : Typical Moslem scare tactics that make a weak attempt at arresting your freedom of speech.

Mr hateshutup maybe you should call the internet police and have them come over and read all the threats of violence made personally against you, I am sure they could use a good laugh.

Fact : Mr hateshutup will consider the apostasy of Mohammadanism as a direct threat of violence against himself.

Fact : Typical Moslem reaction to the apostasy of Mohammadanism, and always puts there offensive jihad in a defensive role in there own minds.

Posted by: Bar at November 8, 2004 11:32 PM

Poetess,
thank you.

I did not know the name of that poetess martyr
assassinated on mo's instructions

May we honour and revere
Asma Bint Marwan
long after mo's name is forgotten
and his legacy annuled.

Asma Bint Marwan,
Poet hero.

Posted by: dby at November 8, 2004 11:39 PM

hatshepsut,
Christianity has many prophecies also. They are all being fulfilled before our eyes. The fig tree has "put forth leaves" after 2000 years. We know that the Lord is returning soon, but before he returns, we know that " the man of sin" will appear on the earth and will require that all receive the mark in his hand or on his forehead. Anyone who refuses the mark can neither buy nor sell, and will be beheaded. I would be interested in the prophecies that you speak of. I will not be converted nor will you, but I am curious about what you alluded to.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 8, 2004 11:40 PM

I know CGW, but I want to know what he/she has to say about those prophecies. I am grounded in my faith.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 8, 2004 11:45 PM

"I was originially episcopalian, considered catholicism, and decided on Islam."

What is that, shopping for faith?

"I OFFER YOU THESE THREE UTTERLY PERFECT WAYS OF GOD"

....for you to choose from of course, depending on your own critical analysis as to what suits you best.

"Obl rus, there are 1,000 upon 1,000 of haddiths with different gradiations of validation, different translators. There is an ocean of commentary on the qur'an."

....but I thought it was perfect, above reproach.... oh right, except for those little typos and mistranslation.

As related to the original topic of this thread, natural selection favors the strong, those who appease are swiftly eaten, save for some instances, like the little fish that clean the mouths of sharks, I'll not do that for islam.

Islam is pushing again, but again they will be pushed back, back to the desert, no thanks to the suckers.

Posted by: khamr at November 9, 2004 12:02 AM

We have two brilliant scholars of Islam right here and access to articles by dozens of others, but Hatshepsut insists we would be better enlightened by the canards of Islamic apologists, leftist university professors, imams at local mosques, and last but not least, IslamOnLine!
How stupid does this erudite "social scientist" think we are?! We chose this site because we get the uncensored truth about Islam. If we wanted lies, obfuscations, propaganda, taqiyya and kitman to soothe our troubled minds, we would visit the many venues that disseminate this detritus.
It must be hell to be a muslim. They live their entire lives trying to conceal the truth about Islam from hapless infidels yet they blindly defend Islam's horrid dogma as the immutable word of God. Do they lie because they are ashamed or because they know the truth is revolting? They lie, kill, torture, rape, enslave, and hate to defend the sanctity of Islam, but where is the peace, comfort, serenity, love, and hope intrinsic to religion? Muslims share a pathetic illusion of superiority, anger, bellicosity, ubiquitous victimhood, and contempt. These negative elements are rudimental to this "great, monotheistic religion", but how are they relevant to spirituality? Islam is a creed of perpetual dissatisfaction and war.
Since good and evil have been unofficially eradicated from our lexicon, replaced by moral/religious/cultural relativism, I must conclude that Islam is antithetical to the archaic definition of "good." But the most deleterious aspect of Islam has to be its manifest entrenchment of misery. Have you ever seen a happy muslim?

Posted by: Susanp at November 9, 2004 12:06 AM

One hundred boats bearing 1 million desperate uninvited immigrants set sail from the Ganges for the fabled coast of the French Riviera. They are totally destitute and have decided their only chance of survival is in a country with a conscience that traditionally welcomes refugees from the Third World. Their journey will take 50 days.
In France, the news is trumpeted with pride by the liberal media, churchmen and left-wing activists. Favorable media echoes are heard all over Europe. Political leaders and the armed forces fumble for common policies. Publicly, French authorities praise the intrepid voyagers. Privately, they exchange ideas on how to divert 1 million hungry souls to other shores.
Trendy French radio journalist Albert Dufort sees the makings of a historical redistribution of wealth between the First and Third Worlds. "We're all from the Ganges now," he proclaims. Schoolchildren write essays eulogizing latter-day "sans culottes." The theme is picked up and sweeps the Continent.
As the armada passes through the Straits of Gibraltar, panic sets in. French Riviera inhabitants begin fleeing north. The French president deploys armed forces along the coast. They are told to defend the country against the now imminent invasion of the poverty-stricken 1 million from the Ganges.
But with their ears glued to transistor radios, they heed Dufort's call not to oppose the landings. They desert en masse. Police open jail cells before shedding their uniforms and hotfooting it home to take care of their families.
Terrified by what he has wrought, Dufort heads for Switzerland in his expensive sports car, but is recognized en route and murdered. As hundreds of thousands of inhabitants of coastal towns and the surrounding Provence country move north, tens of thousands of revolutionary students travel south to greet their Ganges brothers.
Unbeknownst to the welcoming throngs of idealists, the Ganges multitudes are coming to settle scores with the wealthy West that has kept them subjugated without hope of a better life. They hate the West their leaders say robbed them of the higher standard of living to which they were entitled.
The 1 million Ganges folk are not alone. Millions of others monitor their progress from all over the Third World and plan to follow them to the Promised Land. Thus the Third World conquers modern industrialized societies, but not before much mayhem and unspeakable carnage and atrocities.
The story of the demise of Europe as a citadel of civilization is the scenario imagined by French author Jean Raspail in his 1973 runaway best seller "The Camp of the Saints." Much of it was drawn from the near revolution by French students in 1968, which fizzled when French workers turned down the students' appeals for solidarity and went on working, and because President Charles de Gaulle had journeyed to Germany to ensure the loyalty of his French army commanders.
But the novel/parable keeps selling several thousand copies a year, presumably because of fears that Europe is being slowly Islamized by its estimated 20 million Muslims from North Africa, sub-Sahara Africa, the Middle East, South and Southeast Asia.
Many European leaders oppose Turkey's entry to the European Union, convinced it would allow 71 million Muslim Turks to settle anywhere and overrun Europe's Christian civilization.
EU Commissioner Fritz Bolkestein, former leader of Dutch liberals, warned this week that Europe would "implode" if Turkey becomes a Union member. In a speech at Leiden University in the Netherlands, Mr. Bolkestein said the EU would be like the late Austrian-Hungarian Empire, which became ungovernable after taking on too many different ethnic groups.
Were Turkey kept out of the EU, say those who favor its membership, the pent-up frustration would radicalize a huge country that sits astride Europe, the Middle East and Asia Minor. British author and Islam expert Bernard Lewis, quoted by Mr. Bolkestein, says an EU with Turkey as a member would turn Europe into an extension of North Africa and the Middle East by the end of the 21st century.
But this is a minority view inside the EU Commission ivory towers in Brussels. Eurocrats are putting the finishing touches on a recommendation, due Oct. 6, to begin membership negotiations with Turkey. An EU summit meeting in December is expected to give the whole laborious process — an anticipated 10 years, when Turks will number 83 million — a final seal of approval.
Turkey almost scuttled its application by suggesting new penal legislation that would have criminalized adultery. "If that ever spread to EU," said one Brussels wag, "at least half of some 400 million Europeans would become criminals."
The proposed Turkish law was "momentarily" withdrawn to facilitate opening of EU membership negotiations. If Turkey is a land bridge between Asia and Europe, the adultery flap revealed a yawning cultural gap between urban Europe and rural Turkey.
Turkey waited patiently for its turn to negotiate EU entry as East European countries jumped the queue of applicants. So concluded a "wise men's" report by a covey of European elder statesmen. But once Turkey becomes a full-fledged EU member, the Maghreb nations of Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria will also knock on Europe's door. So will Ukraine and Belarus. The collapse of the top-heavy Austrian-Hungarian Empire analogy then becomes plausible.
European public opinion surveys show a majority oppose Turkish accession. This is reflected in the Continent's parliaments. Ratification would fail today. Ten years hence is unpredictable. But the "Camp of the Saints" syndrome grows rather than shrinks.
Hundreds of illegal immigrants still arrive daily at the EU's outer frontiers, known as the "Shengen space." They are mostly Muslims. And the biggest security problem for Europe's intelligence agencies is Islamist extremism. French security recently found some North African residents of France were recruited to fight the U.S. in Iraq.
The Islamization of Europe
Arnaud de Borchgrave
Tuesday, Oct. 5, 2004

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the course to Victory[Freedom] to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist ans ALL who Support them Open the Worlds Eyes to their Threat and give them Courage Amen

PS
could be goat boy??

Posted by: Catherine at November 9, 2004 12:07 AM

hatshepsut states:

"But let me share another secret with you. Do you know it is reported that OUR SOLDIERS have been desecrating the qurans of prisoners in their keep in Iraq? Doing such unpardonable things as URINATING on them, and masterbating on them?

Now, regardless of how anyone FEELS about another persons beliefs, don't you think that sends the wrong message to the iraqi people?"

I know how you feel about the desecration of things that are precious and holy to you, hatsheput. Being a Jew I can tell you the terrible pain I feel knowing that many of our irreplaceble Jewish holy sites have been desecrated, burned, destroyed after being turned over to Palestinian cousins for 'guardianship'.

Maybe you'd like to read about them.

Desecration of Jerusalem

Destruction of Temple Mount

Destruction of Joseph's Tomb

What happened at Joseph's Tomb

Posted by: Kemaste at November 9, 2004 12:16 AM

Oops, here's the links ...

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php

http://www.israel-wat.com/pics2_eng.htm

http://www.geocities.com/rachav/Intifada_pics4.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_josephstomb.php

Posted by: Kemaste at November 9, 2004 12:18 AM

Susan, you are right. I went back to the November 7th thread and refreshed my memory. I am not fooled by those who come here.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 9, 2004 12:22 AM

We know that the Lord is returning soon, but before he returns, we know that " the man of sin" will appear on the earth and will require that all receive the mark in his hand or on his forehead. Anyone who refuses the mark can neither buy nor sell, and will be beheaded. I would be interested in the prophecies that you speak of. I will not be converted nor will you, but I am curious about what you alluded to.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 8, 2004 11:40 PM

Have you seen the mussis with the mark from them hitting themselves with a sword [on their forheads]?? and we are seeing this evil today decapitions, beheading sounds to PC CUTTING PEOPLES HEADS IN THE NAME OF THEIR god??

Could be girl

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength,Wisdom,Sight and Courage to stay the Course to Victory to Defeat ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

Posted by: Catherine at November 9, 2004 12:25 AM

Exactly, Catherine. That is what I am getting at.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 9, 2004 12:31 AM

Like all criminals and cons, they first have to gain your trust. Can't be trusty if your're not polite and make nicey nicey first.

I sense a deep seething hatred bubbling just under the surface with our friendly and polite "little miss know it all".

This person is a minority oddball that hates Western people and in particular white people and possesses a real distain for southern US folk.

Could be some muslim freak that attends louis farrakan rallies.

Keep posting troll.

Posted by: cross at November 9, 2004 1:12 AM

Like all criminals and cons, they first have to gain your trust. Can't be trusty if your're not polite and make nicey nicey first.

I sense a deep seething hatred bubbling just under the surface with our friendly and polite "little miss know it all".

This person is a minority oddball that hates Western people and in particular white people and possesses a real distain for southern US folk.

Could be some muslim freak that attends louis farrakan rallies.

Keep posting troll.

Posted by: cross at November 9, 2004 1:13 AM

Rublev--sounds like you had some experiences similar to those that drove me to confessional Calvinism (after the Westminster Standards and Three Forms of Unity). Most who speak of how horrible the Bible is have read it only selectively, and with little reflection.

I'd be willing to surmise that there are probably lots of hermeneutical rules, etc. that the Qaida types disobey when reading the Qu'ran--although I have to admit that I think Muhammad reflects a lot of half-baked folklore in his pictures of Judaism and Christianity--enough to convince me the Qu'ran cannot be of God.

Posted by: Kepha1 at November 9, 2004 1:40 AM

As someone else pointed out sometimes these "attacks" on muslims turn out to be hoax's
committed by muslims to get sympathy.If these attacks turn out to be real,the truth is only property was damaged no lives were lost and they pale in comparison to the killing an maiming committed by muslims against westerners in the name of Islam.There was a time I would have felt sympathy for muslims but that time has long past.Only property was lost and that should be covered by insurance.

Posted by: Roxane at November 9, 2004 2:33 AM

If I may I would like to make another observation. This person who maintains such an aristocratic air of intellectual superiority and thinks that it has an ability to charm is nothing more than a fraud.

Sure it can conjur up convincing phrases and reach into it's bag of knowledge on certain subjects and recite them at will but all people that want to con others have the same ability. A single con is no big deal but when the con is perpetrated by an enemy as large as organized religion, the victims (all the people not in the religion) lose their freedom and maybe their lives.

The way I see it, islams con game is to get all non muslims guard down and when the time is right they will strike. This person demonstrates an example of the deception. Included is a type of divide and conquer. Notice how it "rewards" people that begin to coorperate and how it shows distain for those who don't. We should continue to see more of this type of assault in the future.

hatshepsut, I say to you, you are cursed. The more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know. You are now, knowledgeable enough to doubt all religions and may even doubt the existance of God. Your mind doubts, questions and does not know for certain what will happen to you when you die.

I submit that isalm for you is nothing more than a political tool. You began posting right after George W. Bush wins re-election, must have sent you over the edge huh, hatshepsut. You really don't have any love for any muhammod or God or Country. You love yourself. You are are traitor to the US if you ever were a citizen. I have pity for you because for all your apparent intelligence, you are miserable. A social outcast. You can't change anything in this country because you are a fringe lunatic, a la ted kazinsky. He was smart but a freaking wacko, kind of like you.

Posted by: cross at November 9, 2004 2:46 AM

Hatsheptsut:

Can you please tell me WHY you became a muslim?

Do you know that you can never change your mind, since the penalty for apostacy is death?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 9, 2004 3:18 AM

Dear Susanp

There have been many excellent posts on this thread but these lines of yours deserve an encore because they are so acute and true. The pinpoint skewering and focussed, intense vision of many people here, including you, must make Muslims wince in pain. Keep contributing, please share your gems with us. Hateshutup must be in agony by now ;-)

{{Muslims share a pathetic illusion of superiority, anger, bellicosity, ubiquitous victimhood, and contempt. These negative elements are rudimental to this "great, monotheistic religion", but how are they relevant to spirituality? Islam is a creed of perpetual dissatisfaction and war.
Since good and evil have been unofficially eradicated from our lexicon, replaced by moral/religious/cultural relativism, I must conclude that Islam is antithetical to the archaic definition of "good." But the most deleterious aspect of Islam has to be its manifest entrenchment of misery. Have you ever seen a happy muslim?}}

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 9, 2004 6:09 AM

Naseem, America is not a person or a religion. Countries INCLUDING Islamic countries have been going to war since forever. What about Sunni's blowing up Shi'ite mosques and vice versa.

It's wrong for a person to kill, except in war I guess when it's legitimate.

HOW did Mohammed move society along? I think that pagan Arabia would have been a pretty cool place.

Sure it would have been very rough and tumble, but it strikes me as a place when people worked hard, played hard, and loved hard. And above all, they would have been FREE. Free to think how they liked, free to dress how they liked. They would have been REAL Arabs, living real lives and it's a shame that Islam ended all that.

The stopping of female infanticide is about the only good thing that Mohammad did, but I have no doubt it was because the gender disparity became too great, like it is in India and China today.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 9, 2004 6:18 AM

With remeberance day coming up it is so insulting to the brave young men that died liberating Holland,the Dutch are once agains being murdered in the streets and Muslims are about to do what the Nazis couldn't.
Islam is a occupying force in Holland and just as the Palestinians claim the U.N. give them the right to resist occupation through opposing the aggressor's,the Dutch have no choice since the Soldiers of Islam dress as civilians.
The Nazis MAY have been the vicious animals
the world wanted to purge form the planet,but at least they had far more guts than the Muslims since Nazis wore uniforms or armbands that let you know who the enemy was.

Muslims have just spit on the graves of the men that fought to make Holland the Country
that Muslims could live in and practise tolerance and pluralism for other faiths.
If only the soldiers knew that 60 years later the sons of Allah would be slaughtering God's children in the streets of Amsterdam to inflict
far more psychological terror than the Nazis.

I say the violence is only the legal "Resistance" to foreign occupiers wanting to make Holand an Islamic State ruled by Shariah-Law from the Muslim populated nation, it will be a real tragedy if Islamic terror forces the Dutch to flee Holland as refugee's fearing harm from personal religious beliefs.

How quickly the opressed become the oppressor's.

NO ISLAM - KNOW A FREE HOLLAND

Posted by: ala-sux at November 9, 2004 6:48 AM

Susanp:

Please post more often. Yours are some of the best comments here.

Posted by: CGW at November 9, 2004 8:25 AM

This topic has veered off-line but I would like to make a point regarding the comment: "Wars are won by killing the enemy. The Jihadists know this and act on it."Itai
Actually, that is not true. Think about it for a minute. Wars are won by gaining and holding land. Yes, you usually have to do this by means of killing the enemy, but not always. Look at Macarthur's leapfrogging enemy islands in WWII.
In this case we are trying to gain ideological ground as well as physical ground in places like Afghanistan and Iraq so that the terrorists have no government support.

WWII didn't end when every German or even every member of the Nazi party was killed.
The US Civil War didn't end when every Southerner was killed. We have to get the terrorists themselves and their bases, then work on something like Denazification of Germany or Reconstruction of the South among non-terrorist Muslims.

The whole idea of war victories as body counts is a CBS Vietnam thing. Rethink it.

And lashing out at people who did not kill Van Gogh is just stupid. That's why people throughout the ages have opted for governemnts instead of mob rule.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney at November 9, 2004 8:35 AM

Naseem, we see what we see, no matter what order the evil verses are placed in. It all spells disaster for peaceful people who wish to keep their hands, feet, and especially their heads, attached.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 9, 2004 8:36 AM

I just came upon (much earlier) post indicating that Hatshesput is a recent convert to Islam. Now I realize that my post to him/her was a total waste of time. Any Western adult who converts to Islam is either stupid, ignorant, or evil. In effect, we shouldn't waste our time on traitors.

Let the light shine upon the poor wretches like Naseem who were probably born into the religion that only knows peace in the grave.

Posted by: Rublev at November 9, 2004 12:03 PM

Rublev,
While I am certainly not an expert on the subject, I have observed that many muslims claim to be former Christians. They believe that they can then ridicule Christianity and we will think they have some kind of extraordinary insight.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 9, 2004 4:44 PM

Muslim school set ablaze in Holland. Muslims retaliate by firebombing churches in Rotterdam, Utrecht and Amersfoort. It looks like the opening salvos of a real shooting war in Europe against the scourge of jihad may finally be upon us. Anybody here surprised?

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at November 9, 2004 8:52 PM

I'm with others of the mind that vigilante attacks are wrong, but in this case, totally understandable. The Dutch have been pushed too far. Time to push back. The Islamics understand only threats, hatred, intolerance and violence. There is no point in any dialogue with these brainwashed savages. Laying down and taking it time and time again only pumps up their pathetic machismo, empowering them and making them feel like they can control us all. Like others have said, vigilantism is the result of inept governments who don't protect their people, only their own self-serving interests.

It's too bad it has to get like this, but there doesn't seem to be much other choice. All this pompous talk about not stooping to their level ... well, if we don't, they'll keep lopping us off at the knees, because that's the only level they understand - the gutter.

Posted by: feralee at November 10, 2004 9:19 PM

NO NEWS MRS. "MAMA MARGARET" HASSAN

Dr. Jack Shepard, People for Peace Group

Message NO news about Mrs. "Mama Margaret" Hassan 9:25 AM-12 Nov, 2004

NO news about Mrs. "Mama Margaret" Hassan

Ling and Kathleen and everyone! There is No news, that I have heard about Mrs. Margaret Hassan.

We have to keep the story alive. People should know that people like us still care and want news, only Good news.

I God willing ONLY BY GETTING REPORTERS AND TV to write and talk about People for Peace Group and our CALL to Prayer for "Mama Margaret" will we save her.

See if you can get a local newspaper or TV to talk or show a place of prayer talking about they are adding their prayers and their voice to our prayers.

To free Margaret we need more articles about our effort. If you look at Google search: for Mrs. Margaret Hassan; People for Peace Group; our care Web site comes up 5th, so people know what were trying to do.

We need more people and we need more publicity to help get world attention back on Mrs. Hassan.

With Iraq and know this new offensive and death of Arafat; the news agencies are so busy with so much happening.

We have to call the newspapers and TV and talk about what we are trying to do.

We at People for Peace Prayer Group are Calling for Worldwide prayer this and every weekend for the safe and immediate release of Mrs. "Mama Margaret" Hassan, and we want the kidnappers to know what a real Angel of God's Mercy Mrs. Hassan is helping for 30 years deaf children and building clinics for their care.

We have to ask the newspapers because only by printing stories about our prayer effort and what kind of person Mrs. Margaret Hassan really was can be have a chance of saving her life.

We need more people have to know and join us.
http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/People_for_Peace_Group

We need more people to write and say especially on TV that they are also praying for the immediate release of Mrs. Hassan.

Then World leaders and World religious leaders will have to talk about her and kidnapping in Iraq.

Dr. Jack Shepard, People for Peace Group

Posted by: Dr. Jack Shepard at November 12, 2004 12:55 PM