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More questions than answers remain, but officials in New Jersey sound as if they're ready to wrap up this case. "Officials zero in on answers in family's killing," from NorthJersey.com, with thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist:
"We're getting somewhere that hopefully is going to give us a clear indication as to what the motive is," said Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio. "And once you have motive, that helps lead you to the people involved."DeFazio still won't discuss the intricate details of the case or explain why investigators are leaning toward a financial motive for the killings. But he did provide a glimpse into the probe, which has included assistance from an FBI profiler.
"The FBI does not think that, based on the information gleaned from the scene, it's based on religious extremism," the prosecutor said, without elaborating.
Yet have all significant leads been given adequate consideration? Can the Hudson County Prosecutors Office really maintain this?
The reasoning of the prosecutors' office itself raises obvious questions:
One is that the killers didn't bring the murder weapons to the house, killing the family instead with knives they found there, DeFazio said. That doesn't indicate a planned assassination, the prosecutor said.The family was bound and silenced with duct tape that may or may not have been inside the house, he said.
They were killed with knives from the house, so it wasn't a planned assassination? It doesn't seem hard to imagine a killer who planned to use knives he found in the house -- particularly if he had been there before.
Other questions are in this article itself:
One theory holds that the victims were significantly wealthier than their modest home indicated and the killers were trying to gain access to the hidden money. Although there was evidence of robbery, a large amount of jewelry remained untouched, authorities said. Several religious symbols - including cross tattoos on each family member's wrist - weren't damaged."Do you think if it was financial they would not take the gold and a ring from my sister's finger?" said Ayman Garas, the dead woman's brother. "Do you think if Hossam had a lot of money he would have complained about his job not giving him enough hours?
"I mean, he never complained about money, but he wasn't rich."
'Savage attack'
One investigator familiar with the case said it is likely that the killers spent a "considerable amount of time" inside the house.
The extent of Hossam Armanious' injuries also suggests a substantial effort was expended, possibly to get financial information from him, the source said.
Armanious clearly suffered the worst of the injuries, including numerous stab wounds, said an official with knowledge of the investigation.
All of the victims appeared to suffer "ritualistic" injuries, including holes bored under each family member's neck, said the source, who saw photos taken of the bodies after they were released to a funeral home. The face of each victim was obscured with a bag, he said.
Iscandar said he was told about such injuries by a Garas family member shortly after the murders.
DeFazio conceded: "This was a savage, savage attack. Whoever did this are not humans."
However, he insisted the injuries aren't consistent with those in ritualistic homicide.
Others have come to just the opposite conclusion. Note also that this bears out what I first reported here about the holes in the victims' necks.
Iscandar's own theory - which has no supportive evidence - is that a "sleeper cell from overseas" used a middleman in the United States to commit the crime. The killings, he said, are similar to those carried out by terrorists throughout the world, something he said Americans aren't used to seeing."Americans are stupid and naïve," Iscandar said. "They don't understand the Middle East."
The Armaniouses were like any other middle-class American family, Iscandar said.
"I'm trying to think why they picked this guy," he said.
Longtime friends
Iscandar and "Sam" Armanious became friends in Egypt in 1982. Born in the historic city of Luxor, Armanious owned a small tourist motel before coming to the United States in February 1996. Iscandar gave him a job in his Summit Avenue bodega, where Armanious worked for about eight months before landing a job catering for hotels.
Armanious was laid off from the catering job about six months ago, Iscandar said. Amal Garas had recently gotten a job with the U.S. Postal Service, he said.
Iscandar said he fears complicity by the Coptic community in the murders and points fingers at leaders of the church, who say he is trying to push a political agenda and escalating the tension between Muslims and Christians in Jersey City.
Iscandar claims a "collaboration" between the Coptic Church and the Egyptian government is stifling public discussion about the killings.
"The church and government interfered and people have stopped talking [publicly]," Iscandar said. "They want us to shut up."
But the family is not shutting up; their press conference is scheduled for 3PM today.
Posted by Robert at February 15, 2005 7:29 AM
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I will be interested to see Who covers this on the news.
Posted by: Gary![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 15, 2005 8:25 AM
DeFazio conceded: "This was a savage, savage attack. Whoever did this are not humans."
Dreadful grammar aside, I can just see the headlines: Armanious family murdered by aliens
at February 15, 2005 8:53 AM
Today’s OT news and commentary, Always Jihad Related, never to be silenced.
Chickendoves:
http://techcentralstation.com/021505A.html
Lynn Stewart’s (potential) Treason:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200502150746.asp
at February 15, 2005 9:22 AM
All of the victims appeared to suffer "ritualistic" injuries, including holes bored under each family member's neck, said the source,
What is the significance of the holes? When they say "ritualistic" injuries it leads me to believe someone knows of some ritual that includes boring holes in the victims necks. Is there such a ritual? If so, what is it and what group does it belong to? Just from that scant description it sounds to me like the knives may have been spun in the necks as torture.
How can the FBI ignore the death treats made to this family that most certainly were of a religious nature? Something certainly does sound fishy doesn’t it? Do you think that the FBI would cover up Islamic murders in the U.S. in some attempt at not causing a panic or retaliations? Certainly someone in the Justice Department would blow the whistle on it if that was the case, or so I would hope.
Remember the headless body found in N.J. at the same time the murders happened? Looking into this yesterday I found where that has been ruled a suicide. The fellow did it by tying ropes to a pole, then to his neck, and then driving across the parking lot effectively hanging himself horizontally as it were. He apparently left six or so pages of a suicide note in the seat beside him.
Hopefully the N.J. murders will get wrapped up soon and we will know the truth. No one here will be surprised if it turns out to be religiously motivated I am quite sure. The question is, “What is the proper response?” What can, and should the government do?
I believe a documentary needs to be made by the private sector. An anti-Moore type individual out there somewhere needs to make a documentary exposing this horror. Or was that the purpose of killing Theo Van Gogh, to give anyone pause that might ever consider such a thing in the future?
f.g.
Posted by: f.g.
at February 15, 2005 9:28 AM
Just yesterday I read on another blog that, in general, police believe that murders using a knife or knives are killings of a personal nature, whereas murder by guns tend to be more impersonal. Of course, this is not always true, but the murder of the Coptic family seems to fall into the category of "personal." I am so afraid that the police in New Jersey are moving towards the "Killed by person or persons unknown..case closed." If this is the case, I wonder if someone on an Islamic website, six months or so from now, will take credit for the murders, safely tucked away in the folds of the "Islamic world."
Posted by: maryrose at February 15, 2005 9:30 AM
While one awaits final results, surely De Fazio and the FBI realize that they themselves are on trial here. If they have not studied the attitude of hostility, murderous hostility, that Islam inculcates (not all Muslims accept the teachings, not all Muslims even listen to the teachings, but the teachings are there for anyone who is an "immoderate" rather than "moderate" Muslim), if they have "learned about Islam" from John Espositio or Michael Sells or some taqiyya-teacher plucked from the membership of MESA Nostra, if they have not committed to memory "The Dhimmi" and "Islam and Dhimmitude" or listened to the testimony of ex-Musims such as Ali Sina and Ibn Warraq, if they have not consulted with the people who know best how Copts are treated in Egypt, and out of Egypt (that is, Copts themselves, at least those who are not afraid to speak freely), if they think that there will not be an investigation into their investigation, including compelled future testimony about any communications that might have occurred with Egyptian officials, or with Copts in Egypt who, naturally, have been terrified by the Egyptian government either into lies, or silence, or at best the use of aesopian language -- they are quite wrong.
As for the little matter of the killers using knives already found in the house, which presumably means that the killings were simply the unplanned byproduct of a robbery (why this follows is completely unclear), there are at least two obvious explanations for not bringing knives.
It may be that the visitors that night came first to argue with Hossam Armanious, and assume dthey would not need to kill them. Perhaps Sylvia, the daughter, had been too successful in her high school, and had converted some fellow Egyptians, Muslim Egyptians, to Christianity. Perhaps, in return, the enraged Muslim father of those children had visited the house, determined to force the Armanious family, but especially Sylvia and her father, to themselves admit their guilt, and then and there, renounce Christianity and accept Islam. In his demented view, that would be tit for tat, for as a Muslim he would not see the patient conversion to Christianity of an individual, over time, through the deployment of argument and appeals to one's moral sense, as in any way superior to the forced conversion to Islam, under threat of death. After all, this is how so many, over 1350 years, were converted to Islam. In this view of the matter, it would be a tit for tat revenge.
And perhaps, that night, the father and the 15-year-old were defiant, believing themselves to be in free America, and that certain things would not, could not be done, as of course they would be done, and gotten away with, in Egypt. And at that point the invader, with or without others, decided to kill them all. It is quite something -- the complete indifference of organized Christian churches, to what is likely an act of martyrdom (not "homicidal" or "suicidal" martyrdom, but real martyrdom, as written about in old books) by the Aramanious family.
Someone well-practiced in the slaughter of sheep for the Muslim festivals would not have as much trouble as we Infidels would, as we could see from all those unforgettable videotapes from Iraq. Perhaps the killer was even more well-versed in slaughter than that: for example, he any butcher could make easy use of any knife that came to hand in the Aramanious's kitchen. Has that been considered?
Or, perhaps, it really was just a robbery that got out of hand. How often we see robbers tie up every member of a family, and methodically slit their throats, and mutilate in very particular ways, their Christian tattoos, and take all the time in the world to do this, but neglect, in the end, to spend 30 seconds to remove, say, a valuable ring from the mother's hand (why not, if money is the object, simply cut off the ring finger?).
Whatever is announced, the future of those in the Hudson County Prosecutors Office, and of the FBI agents involved, are also going to be in play. Even if The New Duranty Times gives the story short shrift, many thousands of intelligent and unfoolable bloggers, all around the world, are watching this closely.
And the first thing they will want to know is: just what does everyone involved know about the treatment of non-Muslims, as mandated under the Shari'a? For if this is not known, or imperfectly known, then the investigation is being negligently conducted.
Posted by: Hugh
at February 15, 2005 9:37 AM
With the increased interest by American viewers in watching criminal cases, one would think this case would be splashed all over television. Is it not more mysterious than Scott Peterson?
Posted by: ted at February 15, 2005 10:00 AM
Hugh,
Were the tattoos mutilated or not? I keep seeing contridicting references made here.
f.g.
at February 15, 2005 10:30 AM
"The extent of Hossam Armanious' injuries also suggests a substantial effort was expended, possibly to get financial information from him, the source said.."
Or more likely a result of trying to make them denounce thier religion.
Any crime scene investigator worth their salt will tell you that this crime scene indicated the brutality(rage) inflicted on the victims was personal due to the location of the wounds in the face and neck ... No run of the mill burglar or robber who wants money or jewels goes through this. He kills the strongest of the group and the rest cooperate. I'm disgusted beyond words at the way the authorities are attempting to make a murder investgation politically correct.
Posted by: Kemaste at February 15, 2005 10:32 AM
OT
A few of us at JW/DW have had discussions about how to replace the "islamophobia" term, which is grossly incorrect, as by definition it denotes an IRRATIONAL fear of islam - for those truly afraid, that fear is rational and indeed completely justified, characterized by NORMAL, not abnormal psychology. What we need is a term that denotes utter hatred of and contempt for the "belief system" which is islam, without the connotation of a fear-based approach.
Someone in a post awhile back suggested "islamomisia" based on the Greek "misos", but this is usually applied in English as a prefix (misogyny, for example) and I can't find in my rudimentary searches whether or not this is a correct construct, and how those who would embrace "islamomisia" would be designated.
Any Greek or Latin experts out there that could help with this? Any and all suggestions are welcome - the point is that we need a label that we have assigned ourselves and embraced rather than one derogatorily thrust upon us by the enemy. Letting them define us is unacceptable.
Posted by: CGW at February 15, 2005 11:02 AM
CGW~ here is a link...
http://www.lexfiles.com/basic-grk-m-z.html
one suggestion:
islamosophic (One who is wise about (or wise to?) islam. Maybe not the best.
islamotherapist- well, perhaps that is what Mr. Spencer is...
antislamic
...I'll leave the rest to others. Working on a drawing and can't get the face down the way I want it.
Posted by: Gary at February 15, 2005 11:16 AM
The reason perpetrators use knives they find at the scene is so they
a: don't have to carry them to the scene, and risk being caught with them
b: don't have to worry about disposing them, because they have no connection to them in the first place
and if we assume premeditation
c: *everyone* has knives in their kitchen. Certainly a family that cooks at home does, especially when one of the adults is a caterer. So you know you will have knives to choose from.
Case in point: my mother in law (of blessed memory) shot and killed a burglar in her home in St. Louis about a decade ago. He was armed with
- mace
- duct tape
- handcuffs
all of which he brought with him, and
- a butcher knife, which he picked up in the kitchen after he forced his way through the back door.
His last mistake was thinking she wouldn't pull the trigger.
All's well that ends well.
I could go on at great length about Hudson county and the Jersey City PD, having grown up in a mixed Irish/Jewish/Sicilian household in New Jersey. I expect that they are desperately seeking some poor black kids with no alibis and, like Old Media, they have failed to come to grips with the Internet's ability to keep 'inconvenient' stories alive.
Posted by: Al Haganah at February 15, 2005 11:51 AM
Antislamic about sums it up don't you think? Or the shorter AniIslamic which sounds better to me.
f.g.
Posted by: f.g. at February 15, 2005 11:54 AM
Everyone's credibility goes down the drain when they build their argument upon facts that are not true.
It has been stated again and again that the tattoos were not damaged. That report came from a single anonymous source speaking to the NYPost. Nearly every other paper and news organization has had on the record statements saying it was not the case. It may have been a hate crime, but you're not going to sway disbelievers by repeating untruths. You only give them fodder to disagree.
Posted by: bfrank at February 15, 2005 12:02 PM
bfrank,
Your meaning is unclear to me. It sounds like you are saying that the "undamaged" report is the bogus one however your closing statement makes me wonder if you meant it the other way around. (scritch, scritch)
f.g.
Posted by: f.g. at February 15, 2005 12:30 PM
DeFazio conceded: "This was a savage, savage attack. Whoever did this are not humans."
Word up, Faz. They were Islamists.
Posted by: Cato the Elder at February 15, 2005 12:45 PM
The fix is in, and this guy DeFazio is obviously being pressured or paid off.
I mean, you've got to be a complete moron not to see who did it. Who else slits throats like this? Who else would slit the throat of an eight-year-old as casually as that of an Eid sacrificial goat?
Even in the murder of Theo Van Gogh, the killer plugged Van Gogh six times with a gun, but had to slit his throat too, just to make sure. He had to do it, in order to comply with Sunnah.
Guns weren't around at the time when Mo was slaughtering the infidels with knives and swords. Think about it. They always copy everything Mo did down to the nth degree. Mo and his friends killed with knives and swords.
Posted by: Suzan at February 15, 2005 1:03 PM
It's a joke. Everyone within the Coptic Community, with which I am close, knows what happened. The fact that knives from the house were used actually makes it more perverse in an Islamist way: to use the infidel's own cutlery to slaughter them is especially twisted, and in a way makes sense given their freakish views on religious justice.
It infuriates me that this moron hasn't consulted with experts on Islam - both "clerics" and Western phD's, like Daniel Pipes or something. Robbery? Give me a break. Robbery of goods valued
This might have been an inside job, Taqqiya-style, and was most definitely performed by at least two people. The sad fact is, this crime will never be solved, and I'd rather it stay that way than hear the false and placatory chidings of an asinine ersatz-investigation.
Anyone know if the press conference is to be broadcast, if so, where? Thanks.
Posted by: written at February 15, 2005 1:53 PM
It's a joke. Everyone within the Coptic Community, with which I am close, knows what happened. The fact that knives from the house were used actually makes it more perverse in an Islamist way: to use the infidel's own cutlery to slaughter them is especially twisted, and in a way makes sense given their freakish views on religious justice.
It infuriates me that this moron hasn't consulted with experts on Islam - both "clerics" and Western phD's, like Daniel Pipes or something. Robbery? Give me a break. Robbery of goods valued less than $1000 is usually punishable by, at most, 5 years in state. To slaughter, ritually, an entire family? Besides being unspeakably not human, you're looking at the death penalty. Surely a rational actor would consider that: surely the person that "DeFazio" want to believe did this (a lone, drugged up, unaffiliated Latino or black kid from the neighborhood) would consider it. But no.
This might have been an inside job, Taqqiya-style, and was most definitely performed by at least two people. The sad fact is, this crime will never be solved, and I'd rather it stay that way than hear the false and placatory chidings of an asinine ersatz-investigation.
Anyone know if the press conference is to be broadcast, if so, where? Thanks.
Posted by: written at February 15, 2005 1:54 PM
The Armanious Family and truth are victims of mid east politics and oil profits.
The US pays fat sums to Egypt, in exchange for Egypts peace treaty and "cooperation" with Israel, and thus turns a blind eye to Egypts human rights violations and persecution of Christians.
Does the same for Saudi Arabia,whose princely family happens to be business partners with the Bush Family dynasty. In and out of the Carlyle Group.
You see the war on terrorism is disconnected from Islamism, in and out of the Bush administration, or so the rhetoric and actions seem to prove. After all we invaded and are occupying Iraq that the Shi'a can bring forth their Islamic Republic led by The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, and for this our treasury is raided, our posterity plundered and our childrens blood spilled.
And of course to "prove" that Bush's Saudi and Kuwait pals are also the victims of terrorists, a bomb goes off here and there, killing infidels, not Saudis, allowing their buddies to whine "we too are victims".
I just can imagine the political pressure, from Washington that is placed on De Fazio.
There is damage control here,for the sake of mid east "peace" and Saudi derived profits and oil.
The Armanious family, like the rest of us, are throw aways, disposables in the greater game.
Posted by: Giaour at February 15, 2005 2:29 PM
MaryRose posted:
"police believe that murders using a knife or knives are killings of a personal nature, whereas murder by guns tend to be more impersonal."
Sadly, if this is the case, it demonstrates the utter failure post 9-11 of our police to upgrade their training. They are not learning from the experiences of Daniel Pearl, Theo VanGogh and many others.
Maybe they are unwilling to face certain realities.
Or, to be more cynical, believe they can cause the genie to return to the bottle by ignoring it.
at February 15, 2005 2:37 PM
More today from the local Jersey City Journal:
http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/index.ssf?/base/news-3/110846587053190.xml
Posted by: Howard at February 15, 2005 2:47 PM
All of the victims appeared to suffer "ritualistic" injuries, including holes bored under each family member's neck, said the source,
Where is GRISSOM and HORATIO?.....need your help with this boyz.
Freaky dude from Law and Order would be good also.
would these holes be consistent with something from the house as well or were these made with a knife and if so how? something amiss with this statement.
a knife would start as a sharp point but if you were to twist and thread it in we would be left with a large hole made by a knife.....but since it does not appear a knife did this lets assume they went into the garage or basement in search of the perfect hole boring tube everyone has laying around.
God forbid this ever happen to my family or friends and my sentiments our with the friends,relatives and church.
Posted by: hadithher2 at February 15, 2005 3:43 PM
Columbus Dispatch 2-15-2005
MOSQUE FIRE IN IRAN KILLS 59, HURTS 250
Cause of the blaze: A Kerosene heater ignited a woman's veil.
Where was Allah on this one? Or is this tragedy the fault of Valentine's Day?
Jackasses
Posted by: DCWatson at February 15, 2005 3:53 PM
at February 15, 2005 3:57 PM
I missed the press conference.
A google search indicates little attention was given to it - but only 1 hour has passed since the planned press conference.
Did anyone see it? Hear it?
Posted by: justamomof4 at February 15, 2005 4:08 PM
Hey CGW and Gary,
here my suggestion: ISLAMOscient,
"scient" from Latin "Scire", to know in English.
Scienter means "knowingly" and thus islamoscient would mean "knowing islam"
Posted by: nippon at February 15, 2005 4:08 PM
Hey justamomof4, yeah nothing on google - if this was a CAIR conference i'm sure within two hours news would be swarming. I couldn't locate it being aired (tv or radio) in time, and missed it as well.
Posted by: written at February 15, 2005 5:19 PM
From the articleMany Copts fled Egypt to America in the 1980s and 1990s to avoid what they perceived as growing Islamic fundamentalism and an increase in tension between the Muslim majority and the Christian minority.
The operative word here is "perceived".
Posted by: DP111
at February 15, 2005 5:39 PM
What "The Google" can't cover this? Maybe they've been struck by the stupid stick.
Posted by: fox1 at February 15, 2005 6:47 PM
Why would the Coptic Church cooperate with the Egyptian government? I must have missed a story on that. Has the Coptic Church over here failed to become sufficiently Americanized so as to have developed a backbone?
I hope the family hires a pit bull trial lawyer to go after that website and any other entity or person that can be identified as having a role.
What's wrong with New Jersey? I don't think that Texans would put up with this crap from law enforcement for an instant. (In fact, we'd all be at the firing range preparing in case some Islamic goon tried to invade our houses) Don't the citizens of New Jersey outside of the Coptic Community see the danger of allowing this to fester? They should all be raising holy hell about the lameness of their law enforcement authorities.
at February 15, 2005 6:53 PM
Not much, but post press conference:
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstories/topstoriesny_story_046153653.html
Posted by: Howard at February 15, 2005 7:15 PM
"DeFazio still won't discuss the intricate details of the case or explain why investigators are leaning toward a financial motive for the killings. But he did provide a glimpse into the probe, which has included assistance from an FBI profiler.
"The FBI does not think that, based on the information gleaned from the scene, it's based on religious extremism," the prosecutor said, without elaborating."
I remember how wrong the FBI profilers were in the D.C. area sniper killings which turned out to be muslim terrorists Malvo and Muhammed.
The profilers said the killer was a lone white man...
Posted by: jawa at February 15, 2005 8:30 PM
No muslims; No mosques. Deport them. All of them.
Posted by: Havoc at February 15, 2005 8:58 PM
A criminal investigation based on false or suspect assumptions is does not 'zero in' but, of necessity, 'zones out'.
Posted by: JTF at February 15, 2005 9:50 PM
How about "Islamanathema" base on the Greek for accured by God. The real God of course.
at February 16, 2005 3:28 PM
Excuse my spelling i mean accursed by God.
Posted by: Darkwing Duck at February 16, 2005 3:29 PM
Darkwing Duck:
I like it! It has a certain ring to it, once you figure out how to pronounce it.
Posted by: CGW at February 17, 2005 6:25 AM
ISLAMABHOR
Abhor. To hate extremely, or with contempt, to loathe,
detest or abominate. To despise. To reject.
at February 18, 2005 2:09 PM
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