Dear me, this sounds such a lovely fable...The sort dangerous Islamic fundamentalists feed to gullible Westeners and paid Dhimmis like John Exposito and Karen Armstrong. Please explain numerous bombings around the Globe, also 9/11,
WHEN INTENDED VICTIMS WERE NEVER OFFERED A CHOICE TO CONVERT TO ISLAM!! OR DEATH. Such a gentle, peaceful religion, I don't think...

Posted by: Morgane at February 23, 2005 5:04 AM

Finally someone has painted a scenario I can understand.
My understanding is that the question posed has only 2 answers.
A)Accept and convert to islam
B)Do not accept and face the wrath

The clear choice is B) and with that I ask the Almighty YKWH with his son ISA seated at his right hand to forgive me for what must be done.

Posted by: chuck at February 23, 2005 5:24 AM

Did anyone read Osama's "invitation to islam"??? If the muslim world view is one such as this distorted, bag of primitive dribblings, is there any wonder the core of the ummah consists of violent, sub-evolved apes who shoot their guns in the air, blow themselves up, and equate the importance of human life as practically nothing next to centuries old, gibberings of insanity from a raving nonce.

His misconceptions are obvious, even if the british and americans were responsible for the handing over of palestine to Israel (which they have every right to, the jewish semites presence pre-dates islam and is mentioned in the bible... the palestines never existed.... unless they mean the phillistines who are of greek origin..... the original muslim inhabitants of the region where the apocalyptic raiders that invaded undert the instruction of Mohammed, exiling the jews..... also note that muslims believe the entire world is muslim territory!!!).... that still does not excuse their endless hostility towards the west when we practically keep them all alive .These babarians would do well to note we could cut off their aid in seconds and pop bullets into them as they starved.

All of the other "reasons" for their attacks on ,and hatred towards the west are for our assistance inwars against islamic uprisings and militias (all of which have no place in the civilized world.... they attack civilians, maiming and killing women and children, all so they can impose their draconian sharia law.... and expect us not to get involved or side with them???..... maybe they should study human behavior, and take a good long look at themsleves ; then see who does the best impression of human beings, muslims are quite unlike any "civilization" on this planet).

Posted by: Rikki at February 23, 2005 5:48 AM

Make no mistake, essentially the US and allies are doing exactly the same thing to the Muslims. We are offering them the choice of:
a) Converting to an ideology that does not seek to wage war on or murder Westerners, or
b) War, and inevitable destruction.

Mohammad was many things, a dummy was not one of them. We have chosen a very similar policy to him, some 1400 years later.

The difference is, we hold the whip hand (nukes). Senate, Congress and the President only have to say the word, and option b) is invoked and completed somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour later.

A mere 3000 people killed as evidence that the other side has not chosen option a), and two countries get invaded. Hopefully the Muslim world will learn in time not to call our bluff.

Posted by: 2468 at February 23, 2005 6:25 AM

A mere three thousand dead and about 280 million madder than hell about it.

You missed the other threads test and the A/B question posed there. And the choice is clear

Posted by: chuck at February 23, 2005 7:02 AM

2468 (seems your counting skills are as efficient as your observational skills, judging by your knowledge),
We aren't offering them any kind of ideology, we simply want to put an end to their religiously backed conquest of the planet, in which we are a major setback because (a) we are far more advanced in technology and combat, and we have evolved beyond the dark ages of religion ruling peoples lives (and are now at a point in time where we can choose whether we follow religion or not, and don't want to be taken back to the times when those who weren't religious were killed, especially not by neanderthalic imberciles who have simply not evolved correctly and rely on oil to fund their violent conquest, and us to feed them).
(b) Our free civilization goes completely against the kind of un-free society they want to exist, and we are a threat to islam in their view, because of the muslims in the west being secularized, and the influence spreading throughout the umma.

We are not trying to impose any kind of religious dominion on the islamic ummah, we are simply trying to put an end to the terrorism that is the result of their religious insanity. We want our lifestyles to continue, we want the freedoms we are used to, to still be available to our children, and our childrens children. Islamic terrorism is an attack mon our very way of life therefore, we must retaliate to protect that way of life.... otherwise, their attacks will continue until they acheive their goal.
Admittedly Bush isn't exactly on the same page as us here at jihadwatch, he's nowhere near clued up enough to understand and deal with islam as it needs to be..... but at least he's fighting the right enemy, and anything is better than just sitting around and letting an army of savage morons attack us,just because we don't believe in their stone age cult.

Their choices before 9/11 were simple, they could have give up on their jihad against the west (although even then they couldn't resist continuing their jihad on the rest of the non-muslim world, and would probably end up getting slaughtered by someone else), left us in peace, and lived under their own religious laws.... we don't want to.
Or, attack us and face the consequences.... they obviously took the latter choice, and the current war on terror is a result of that.
It's obvious to us all that these religious freaks will never give up, or stop killing in their gods name.... and because of that fact, we need to wipe out the terrorist organizations, as well as the islamic dictatorships that aid them, then we need to concentrate on the religion itself, giving them the choice of change it or ban it. Reform or oblivion.

It's time do-gooders like you got with the program and quit giving muslims so much undeserved sympathy. See them for the violent monsters thaty they are , sticking their asses in the air five times a day, teaching their kids to hate all infidels, and brain-washing them with the worst kind of poison, living lives of misery and then giving that life up as part of their mission to impose that misery on the rest of the world (just so the selfish slob can go to a paradise that doesn't exist).
They deserve everything they get.

Posted by: Rikki at February 23, 2005 7:51 AM

A fable akin to "How the Elephant Got its Trunk" -- "How Islam Came to Bukhara." Still, even if it were true, it is not exactly edifying. The Bukharans were still made an offer they couldn't refuse, but the fable tells us they so enjoyed their months under the rule of a Muslim army that they willingly accepted Islam.

And they all lived happily ever after.

Posted by: Hugh at February 23, 2005 8:18 AM

Hi all,

2468 almost has it right...from a muslim's perspective....You ARE over there and you DO want to impose democracy over sharia (by force ...over 140K soldiers are there).

This is not being done for the people of Iraq or Afganistan...... no sir, it is being done for the survival of the West.

I know that Bush et al couldn't careless about the situation unless it affects the US...which ofcourse it does.

The opposite is true for the muslim extremists...their very survival is at stake here.....and ofcourse they are there for the long haul. it has yet to be shown if the Western hawks are in there for long. As Mr. Rikki says "The muslim cannot possibly win" (in the short term)....but give it 5 years, 50 years, 500 years, 5000 years...eventually they will win...that is Allah's (swt) doctrine.... eventually there will be only Islam ...as ordained by Allah....and there is little that the West can do to stop it.

By trying to destroy Islam ...you destroy yourselves....

By trying to preserve Islam ...you destroy yourselves

By ignoring Islam .... you destroy yourselves

Only by embracing Islam ...once it is the global brand ...will there will be no war....nothing to fight about...peace will reign.

The more people who embrace Islam the quicker we will get to peace. I urge you to visit a mosque today ...listen to what the Imam has to say....look at the peace within Islam.....

in effect look to the future.

Posted by: Naseem at February 23, 2005 8:49 AM

Rikki,

Pull your head out of your ass for one second and read what I wrote. I am completely in favor of Bush's policies in this area.

But bear in mind, is what Robert Spencer says wrt Islam is correct? Is Jihadism (i.e. forcing the infidels to accept Islam, dhimmitude or war) as central to Islam as the Ten Commandments is to a Jew, Turn the Other Cheek is to Christians (although some adhere to Eye for an Eye as well as the other 9 Commandments), or not believing in god is central to being an atheist?

If that is true, asking Muslims to give up Jihadism is the equivalent of asking an atheist to accept Christ into his life, or asking a Christian to give up the Ten Commandments (with the exception of Turn the Other Cheek).

What this means is that if they are to be true to their religion they are obligated to fight us.

Do I think the West is right to fight them, and if they won't change then to nuke them to oblivion? Hell yes! Bring it on!

But please explain why should I turn into an absolutist nitwit, unable to understand my enemy to do so?

Posted by: 2468 at February 23, 2005 8:49 AM

Naseem has it right, but bear in mind that he is writing form the Muslim perspective. That is what they believe.

As a Westerner who loves my freedom to be atheistic, the freedom to not have to give my female children clitorectomies or have sex with women with the clitoris intact, to ogle near naked women at bars, to blaspheme who in the hell I want to blaspheme, to play chess, to not have to bow to Mecca 5 times a day or submit myself to any number of arbitrary rules...

embracing Islam is not an option.

My enemies believe that ignoring Islam is not an option, and they certainly proved that one on 9/11.

My enemies believe that in trying to "defang" Islam, I destroy myself, then I'm willing to take that risk.

If defanging proves impossible too, then destroying Islam is the only option on the table. My enemies believe that in trying to destroy Islam, I destroy myself.

I don't believe we need to exercise that option yet, but if it comes to it I will certainly risk destroying myself to do so.

Posted by: 2468 at February 23, 2005 9:01 AM

The more people who embrace Islam the quicker we will get to peace.

Oh, like the peace between the various Islamic sects that kill on each other on a daily basis in the Middle East?

If the world had embraced Nazism during WWII the world would be at peace now too. But would it be a world anyone of us would want to live in? I don't think so.

There is no peace within Islam Naseem. The brutal nature of Islamic justice is obvious to the most casual observer. You only appear disingenuous when you make such statements. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

You seem to be an intelligent and thoughtful person. How on earth can you possibly think that if the entire world were under Islam that there would be any peace? There would be perpetual war between the various sects just like there is today. Wouldn't it? There is no reason to believe otherwise.

There is no peace in Islam because Islam is a tragically flawed philosophy whose problems have been exposed here again and again. What you (the Islamic people) say “Peace” and what you do “War” are two completely different things.

The Islamic teaching of using lies and deceit as a means to an end require us to discount your rhetoric and concentrate on your behavior. The behavior of the Islamic world is quite frankly infantile and dangerous. I don't want to live in that kind of world either Naseem. Why in the hell do you?

f.g.

D.T.O.M. (Don't Tread On Me)

Posted by: f.g. at February 23, 2005 10:04 AM

Robert:

I've researched this because I almost daily argue with Muslims and their apologists.

To my knowledge there is no Muslim country that forces non Muslims to pay Jizyah.

Iran (google Iranian Constitution) only recognizes three religions besides the state religion of Islam.

Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, in practise I'm sure (but can't prove) that they are second class citizens. Bahai faith is, however persecuted viciously in Iran, I don't know how Hindu's are treated but atheists have no rights and have to pretend to be Christians or Jews to get access to government services.

In Saudi Arabia, only Islam is allowed to be practised, exceptions made (in Aramco compounds) for foreign workers, ex patriots, from Dar al Sulh (the land of Truce), there are about 6,000 Christians (ex pats I think) in SAudi Arabia.

In Pakistan, a Christian can be, and they are, jailed and their property confiscated by the mere accusation of a muslim that they have blasphemed Muhammad or Islam. It is a widely used tactic by envious Muslims to get their hands on the property of Christians.

But I have not found any instance, currently, where Jizyah is exacted from non Muslims.

BTW, just got word that your latest book, The Myth of Islamic Tolerance is being shipped to me, can't wait to read it.

I don't want to sound too arrogant, but I have read and studied so much about Muhammad and Islam, that I don't think I will learn much new,but there are always gems that fall out of all books.

My next book order will include Bat Ye'ors book Eurabia. Didn't you say that you have written another book soon to be published?

Posted by: Giaour at February 23, 2005 10:32 AM

Riki sez:

We aren't offering them any kind of ideology, we simply want to put an end to their religiously backed conquest of the planet,

Yeh right, you believe that because you want to believe it. Take your President at his word, his is a war on terrorism, not Islamism. In fact his policies are actually promoting Islamism, such as the Islamic REpublic of Afghanistan and Islamic Republic of Iraq.

As we speak, Europe is dying out and the populations being replaced by Islam, Bat Ye'or's Eurabia.

Within two generations Denmarks population will be replaced, same is true of the other European countries.

Islamic Turkey (and Islam has made a resurgence in Turkey, as the secular regime of Ataturk has been replaced via democracy with Islam). The EU WILL admit Turkey, but it will take 12 years,(according to EU commissioners) which is about the amount of time needed to give Islam a dominant force in Europe.

Marseille is already 90% Muslim, there are Muslim enclaves all over France, and the cops fear to enter this enclaves.Muslim women have marched in protest against abuse by Muslim men, but the French authorities turn a deaf ear, and we all know the story of the Netherlands don't we.

Germany has a serious unemployment problem, but is still recruiting students and workers from Muslim countries.

England has expanded their Hate Crimes laws to provide special protection to Muslims, and even mentioning that a perp is a Muslim can get a person or a reporter 7 - 10 years in jail.

And here in the good ole USA, your President Bush has bent over backwards to cozen up to the Musim community, he has used his Executive powers in the form of Executive Orders to create faith based offices in all Federal Departments, and all of them have Muslim Imam's and representatives.

Even Wolfowitz, the Jewish neo con, eulogized Ayatollah al Hakim and compared him to Abraham Lincoln, like Ronald Reagan compared the Taliban and Osama bin Laden to the Thomas Jeffersons of their country.

Meanwhile your President is personal friends and his family and Cheney are business partners with the Saudis.

But don't let me interfere with your self delusion Rikki.

Posted by: Giaour at February 23, 2005 10:55 AM

Naseem said, come out of the light and into the darkness that is islam. NEVER.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 23, 2005 11:22 AM

*chuckles* the blindness of some Leftists. Rikki is not American. Anyone paying attention would know that by now. Typical of some groups, to see a site like this and figure everyone to be WASPs.

And anyone paying attention knows, the Bush family divested from Carlyle, Soros (kerry backer) is Heavily invested.

but I digress...

Posted by: Gary at February 23, 2005 11:23 AM

Naseems picture.

http://www.sd5.k12.mt.us/edgerton/5c/photos/Colonial%20Day/dunce3.jpg

Posted by: cross at February 23, 2005 11:58 AM

Islam = peace?
What an interesting fable!

Posted by: Jakester at February 23, 2005 12:15 PM

Dear Naseem,
your mouth writes checks that Islam cant cash.

What has Islam accomplished in 1,400 years?
Well this peaceful religion of Islam murders all who question it.

Well Israel become a country, and is still there despite continued Islamic hostilities and their goal of total Israeli destruction.
Well lets not forget Afghanistan or Iraq. Two former radical Islamic countries, that have been exterminated.

Naseem, you are ignorant of the fact that Islam murders Islam.
So even if the whole wide world was Moslem, they would still be blowing themselves up for Mohammad.

Yes, Naseem
If things keep going this way, it does look like the US will be in some deep trouble.

Why do I get the feeling that a Moslem would be threatening you with all kinds of violence as they are being blindfolded and led in front of a firing squad.

When will Islam learn to put its money where its mouth is.
Don’t just say your are a religion of peace, prove it!

Posted by: Bar at February 23, 2005 2:15 PM

Nassem:Only by embracing Islam ...once it is the global brand ...will there will be no war....nothing to fight about...peace will reign.

The more people who embrace Islam the quicker we will get to peace. I urge you to visit a mosque today ...listen to what the Imam has to say....look at the peace within Islam.....

Naseem you should hear yourself. You sound a true muslim fanatic. There is no choice in your system of thought for anyone. All people have to surrender to the rantings of a paedophile bandit and murderer that you call a prophet.

We in the West offer freedom to all, even muslims, so long as they abide by the law. Terrorising others, killing people who criticise islamic subjugation of women, is not our idea of tolerance, or for that matter any right thinking person.

1. By trying to destroy Islam ...you destroy yourselves....

We are not trying to destroy islam. In fact we are actually trying to bring into the 21st century, and thus give it some relevance and a chance to continue.

2. By trying to preserve Islam ...you destroy yourselves

It may appear from our half-hearted approach, that that is what we are doing, and that we will destroy ourselves in trying to preserve islam. There is a danger in what you say.

Personally I do not think there is any chance of any real Reformation of islam as the koran is not worth the effort. My own view is that muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh, should consider reverting to their native civilisation, ie Hinduism - a far greater civilisation then islam can ever hope to be, and stop mimicking the Arabs.

Have you ever considered why India continues as a democracy and is making rapid economic progress, while Pakistan and Bangladesh are beggar nations. There is not much difference between the three, except the culture of religion.

Preserving islam will not come at the cost of our destruction.

3. By ignoring Islam .... you destroy yourselves -

Actually that is the fastest way we can bring about the demise of islam. All we have to do is to expel muslims from the West regardless of citizenship, and then have as little to do with the islamic world as possible.

Believe me, if there is another attack like 9/11, the islamic world will rue the day it listened to mohammed.

Posted by: DP111 at February 23, 2005 5:39 PM

On the "Embrace Islam or Die" Option Offered by Osama bin Looney Tunes and His Ilk:

Islam offers ABSOLUTELY NO PHYSICAL PROOF TO CONFIRM ANY OF ITS TEACHINGS. And thus neither can it justify any of its teachings. Nor can it claim universality either at least with an iota of credibility) for the same reason.

What Islam has offered to humanity is a human sacrifice cult dressed up as a Judeo-Christian faith. Aren't you just dying to embrace it already? No?

You'll notice that Islam NEVER ceases slaughtering human beings---NOT EVEN OF ITS OWN PEOPLE. Observe the Muslims' ubiquitous screaming about America's alleged maltreatment of the 'Islamic world.' Yet, when was the last time you saw an Islamic megalomaniac-dictator actually punished by these same Muslims for actually perpetrating mass murder of his own people (in many cases with the victims numbering well into the MILLIONS)? Never. Never!

You'll notice thatMuslim Idi Amin was a legitimate 'guest' of Saudi Arabia for years despite his well-authenticated record of mass murder of his own people. THAT'S HOW mass murderers are treated by Islam and its leaders. Life obviously means NOTHING to this ideology. Human suffering never figures into the mindset created by Islam. Listen to the wailing of the thousands of Iraqis dying under American occupation, but NOT A WORD ABOUT Saddam Hussein's massacring of millions of Iraqis by his own hand. Human suffering becomes a token of political manipulation. There is no perception that life is itself important all to itself--only to be used for aggrandization.

Thus could the Muslim world's leaders truly care about the suffering of the Muslim people? Answer: Only if a non-Muslim political entity has brought it about. The moral? Killing is MORE ethical to Islam than dealing rationally with the world at large. Enslavement of humans is all-important. And this is because the deity to which Islam is bound has made killing and subsequent enslavement to its ideology all-important. Killing hidden behind counterfeit Judeo-Christian theology, what a horrific juxtaposition. Understanding is thus a crime to Islam (because it has so much to hide, so much that is repellent to humanity...and so much that is utterly counterfeit). Could anyone ever truly 'embrace' such a thing if they knew what it was? Think of what would happen to YOU if you 'embraced' such a thing. But at least they would force you not to think about it anymore...

No sane individual could ever embrace a human sacrifice cult that diminishes the value of all human life (even of its own followers). Or embrace a deity like Al-lah that is clearly a snicker-snack. Could anyone ever embrace an ideology that provides but one right to its followers : the right to be tyrannized? Could you??

But no one ever said Islam WAS sane, did they?

Don't you want to be a killer-zombie of Islam's???
No?????

Posted by: pythagoras at February 23, 2005 11:20 PM

NASEEM:

Drop Dead.

Posted by: pythagoras at February 23, 2005 11:22 PM

Giaor,
All of what you say has some truth to it, there are muslim havens allover Europe, the world is looking bleak, but if anyones to blame in the west, it's your fellow lefties embracing the fucking cult in the first place. Believe me I'm not happy with progress thats being allowed to take place, in the western jihad.... the fact is, it's happening, and we can continue doing what we're doing, exposing it and fighting it with our very beings, or just let the tide of evil wash over us (that which Naseem thinks will be our saving grace) and succumb to the satanic preachings.
I know where I'll be when that day comes....

A couple of points worth pointing out :
I'm not american, nor am I entirely optimistic about Bush's war on terror, nor the future regarding the fight against islam.... but I won't take the defeatist attitude that you have.... good god man, pull yourselve together .... is there any wonder most lefties are in denial on the subject and just choose to be virtual dhimmis???

Posted by: Rikki at February 24, 2005 5:31 AM

PS- Naseem, as time goes by, you get more and more like a true muslim...... fucking mental!!!

Posted by: Rikki at February 24, 2005 5:32 AM

Mr Rikki says "PS- Naseem, as time goes by, you get more and more like a true muslim...... fucking mental!!!"

Mr. Rikki my sincere apologies for that... it is and never was my intention to go there.

And over the past weeks I have seen my own attitude harden....and I put it down to to the fact that reading that most of the people here don't really want to engage or try and understand my beliefs....they simply want to eridate them.

As examples of this I was told to "drop dead" or "be damned for eternity" when the Coptic murders in NJ took place and the blowing up of the retarded person in Iraq. Despite my recorded abborence to these acts I was still damned.

Prior to coming to JW I knew that taqquia meant "Pillow" in Urdu and not the JW one of "lies, deciet and deception". But I know better now.

Being honest I have learned a lot about the "fundamentalist" side of Islam....one that you never really talk about or see in action at the ground level in Pakistan. Here, mostly people are friendly and go about living from day to day. They don't understand where JW is coming from....believe me ...no one goes there or even needs to.

So imagine "coming to the real (er US version) of the world". It makes me extremely angry to see what some of the Islamic jokers are doing in the name of Islam...absolutely furious..and I lash out...sometimes even when I don't mean to.

It also makes me sad and angry at how some here give no sense of understanding to my beliefs and where I am coming from....it's all "sess pool this and sess pool that". Yes, there are sess pools ...loads of them and I acknowlege that....

but there are also lots of good people too so I ask for a sense of perspective. If all muslims were fundamentalists...there would be complete chaos... at least I know that now.

I'll try harder in the future ...and I ask you to try too.

Posted by: Naseem at February 24, 2005 9:48 AM

Naseem does have a point.

I am currently reading Irshad Manji's 'The Trouble with Islam,' and she makes the following statement:

'Haram, for instance, can mean "forbidden" or "Noble" depending on which 'A' you stress.'

She also wonders why we would need to learn the Koran in the original arabic, when only 13% of muslims speak/read arabic.

This is why we need to make sure of the spelling of these words. Or the emphasis of syllables. I mean, for all we know, 'Allahu Akbar!' could well mean "I stubbed my toe again, Damnit!"

Posted by: Gary at February 24, 2005 1:37 PM

Naseem
I would like to apologize to you for my inflammatory remarks toward you and your religion of Islam. Please understand that being an America I have grow up with the freedom to express my views. Sometimes I express my views in some not so nice ways. But also keep in mind that we were unprovokingly attacked by radical Islam.

I see that you come here for the truth, in that regard we are on the same quest. On this quest, questions will arise that are going to be difficult to discuss. Please do not take it personally when we question the Qur’an, Hadith, jihad, Mohammad, etc.

I, being a American Christian, am at times confronted with difficult questions and inflammatory remarks about my religion. I have to not take it personally and then go found out what the truth really is and then give an answer for the hope that lies within. The hope being my faith. This has only benefitted me, by causing me to dig deeper than before. I hope you can garner the same effect.

Posted by: Bar at February 24, 2005 3:41 PM

Naseem,
When you talk sensible and on a level like that, I can relate to you. Although I'm usually quite hostile to you (and this is based on my anger towards fundametalist islam rather than you, which is perhaps the wrong attitude to take, but when you go preaching that islam is the way, in the face of attrocities that are the result of it; you make yourself an easy target)I do respect your refreshing honesty when condemning your fellow muslims actions, and it at least appears as though you're being sincere. I can be just as quick and nasty tempered as any human being, thats when I start calling for eradication of islam.....a I apologise for that.
Sometimes though I really don't see any chance of reform, and it looks to me as though even the most moderate among you could quickly change to extremist overnight.... just think how many moderates have become extremist ; you must understand this. The attitude you displayed in the post before last shows that even a muslim as rational and capable of debate as you can quickly become as irrational as the likes of Bin Laden.

I understand that you probably know thousands of muslims that have never done anything resembling violence in their lives ; but many of these exist in parts of the world where religion is the dominant force, over logic and education. I ask you, what would it take to make these people capable of violence???? Propaganda by clerics telling them that as muslims they are obliged to fight for Allah and kill as many infidels as possible, or perform some other method of jihad???The likes of Bin Laden claiming he represents islam when he attacks the west, which is the enemy of islam therefore all muslims??? With this kind of provocation, where moderates are seens as "not true muslims", the most moderate muslims are capable of becoming violent jihadists. There is nothing showing the west in a good light, showing it to be the epicentre of liberty and freedom that the west actually is, in these islamic countries, therefore the opinion of these people is always going to be a negative one (even if they immigrate to the west, they will still hold those previous misconceptions about the west, because those beliefs have been so heavily drilled into them .... putting their jihad and duty to islam as a priority even over their loyalty to the west that has provided them asylum from oppression..... do you see where I'm coming from???

Posted by: Rikki at February 25, 2005 5:18 AM

Bar, Rikki, don't be fooled . . . it's all an endless quest for da'wa, using whatever rhetoric will "get" to you.

You've been played, my friends.

Posted by: CGW at February 25, 2005 8:19 AM

Look back at the cyclical nature of the posts . . . rational, reasonable, then extreme, pushing the "embrace islam" message much as Reza did, then after the flames, back to rational and reasonable for awhile - but it always comes back to the "resistance is futile" message. Don't you recognize the specific da'wa method being employed?

Please don't be suckered in by the fake "sincerity" and the supposedly injured feelings . . . it's laughable.

Posted by: CGW at February 25, 2005 8:25 AM

Hi all, thank you for being understanding, I'm trying to be honest here.

It is infact people like CGW (& lots of muslims too)who stand in the way of progress & understanding between our two wonderful cultures.

CGW, I really don't know what your agenda is but let me remind you that I am one muslim woman (just one) who believes in Allah (swt) and do not classify myself as fundamentalist, I pray when I can but it is not 5 times a day every day.

I have a busy life in Pakistan , that and going to/from the UK every so often (where my son studies at University) looking after a husband and helping my daughter at a Uni in Pakistan + cooking + cleaning + holding down a job.

I also try to talk to people at JW usually once every couple of days....now I DON'T get a lot of free time, I don't know who Reza is/was and I am not particularly interested in reza or D'awa....there are plenty of muslims around anyway... I don't need to go there.

So for me anyway , you are wrong , you won't believe me anyway but there it is.

If I am imflammatory it is because I get MORE than my fair share of putdown....kappish.

Does that help you CGW as to where I am coming from?

Posted by: Naseem at February 25, 2005 9:22 AM

Greetings,

Im an ideological muslim revivalist, I would like to contribute to the discussions here upon this site, to provide a more varied and in depth debate about the issues raised here. Since there is so much to discuss here on this site, I would like to set the record straight regarding Jihad.

Jihad is the foreign policy of an Islamic state where fighting is one of the means of spreading the ideology. Diplomacy, Intellectual challenge and 'ideological influence by example of its application' are other means used in foriegn policy of spreading the ideology.

Like the America uses Military means to maintain the status quo of its political and economic dominance:

"The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas."

[Thomas Friedman, NY Times columnist - RESIST newsletter, September 2000, p4]

But Jihad is used to make the ideology of Islam be implemented over others with the express intention of eliminating opression, injustice and the inequity of systems which produce and reinforce poverty amongst people.
Because Islam is the only ideology where its purpose its not self benefit or greed but of the genuine elevation and enlightenment of mankind such that it brings real peace and stability.

I know they are alot of comments and misinterpretation about how islam treats it inhabitants but the simple fact of the matter is, my country (algeria) along with others still have people retaining their islam (en masse) even when all semblance of Islamic authority is passed. The portuguese (of which I share half my background with) remember the islamic civilisation as with fondness and awe. The indonesians converted to islam en masse just with the interaction of their society with our traders and merchants, the Islamic economic system was experienced by them- convincing them of Islams justice and enlightenment.
Other examples abound, the Mongols who conquered the islamic lands in the east only themselves to be conquered by Islam (i.e. the became muslims upon witnessing the islamic civilisation).
Another blatant example was the composition of an army of 80% marionite chrisitians who fought alongside muslims to repel the crusaders!

The Quranic ayat is taken out of context due to the nature of the translation you read, 'feeling subdued' means they accept the soverignty of islam upon them in their societal interactions.
This is similar to saying that all new citizens of america (who emigrate) should feel part of the society they are in and do not resist integration and thus they should interact others based upon the ideas america up holds which is Freedom and secularism.

Islam gave the best minority rights ever experience by a minority then and since, what country grants minorities their own laws to govern their own societal interactions?
Yes, the Dhimmi's had to pay a citizenship tax (1.5% on excess wealth) but this was only on men of working age and they payed it as a waiver to obligatory military service. Muslims pay 2.5% (on excess wealth) more tax then Dhimmi's and have to enter into military training to fight to protect all the citizens of an islamic state (muslim or otherwise!). So who has the more hardship in an islamic state?

Let us compare again with the motives that capitalism has for its foriegn policy objectives:

"The problem is that the good Lord didn't see fit to put oil and gas reserves where there are democratic governments."

Dick Cheney, Bush's Vice President at a 1996 energy conference

"There was never a plan to leave Iraq because there is no intention to leave Iraq. We (the Americans) are currently building 14 bases there. Dick Cheney can't imagine giving up that oil. The military can't imagine giving up those bases. That's why they can't come up with a plan to leave."

Chalmers Johnson, author of Sorrows of Empire, in LA Weekly, July 6 2004

"If war aims are stated which seem to be solely concerned with Anglo-American imperialism, they will offer little to people in the rest of the world. The interests of other peoples should be stressed. This would have a better propaganda effect."

Private memo from The Council of Foreign Relations to the US State Department, 1941

Isnt this to be expected from capitalism?,isnt it the ideology about maximising personal gratification as a means to achieve happiness?
Self-centeredness, greed, selfishness are just a few of many low level motivations capitalism has given individuals as a purpose to their life.

I sincerely hope we can enter this discussion of mutually understanding and comparing ideas for the purpose of attaining the truth.

I welcome all questions, replies and challenges, thanks for reading.

Salam
Abdul

Posted by: mujtahid at February 25, 2005 7:25 PM

Dear mujtahid

Can you prove that Mohammad was not a false prophet?

Sincerely
Bar

Posted by: Bar at February 26, 2005 2:48 AM

Salam,

Thankyou Rikki for your comment on my post, I assume you have read it and found it distasteful. This is your choice, but the comments you make against me, far from disproving the validity of my points, in fact, illustrate the scale of your intellectual defeat.

Muslims dont view westerners as gullible, in fact its westerners themselves which view each other as guillible, you assume europeans are such and they most definitely retort the same about you (I live in England btw)- the common arguements I hear are that americans are fooled by their own encapsulated world of their media and confounded by a political system they dont really understand, find solace in simple 'Good vs Evil' statements. This arguement is not from muslims but actually from English, french and german citizens of europe.

And whats more- you view them as gullible because they dont buy into the 'good vs evil' dogma being spewed out by your politicians when they clearly see that politics in all its machievelian glory is really about the selfish national self-interests of countries.

I welcome arguements but they have to be engagable and not of the kind which include words such as 'bullshit'.

Posted by: mujtahid at February 26, 2005 1:26 PM

Salam,

First I would like to address the question asked of me by Bar.

As for the proof of the need for messengers, it has been proven that man is created
by God and that religiousness is innate in man, since it is one of his instincts.
Thus, man, by his nature, sanctifies his Creator, and this sanctification means worship,
which is the relationship between man and his Creator. Leaving this relationship
without organisation will lead to turmoil and to worshipping other than the Creator.
Therefore, it is necessary to organise this relationship with a correct system which
cannot emanate from man, because he cannot comprehend the nature of the Creator
in order to set up this relationship between himself and the Creator. Hence, this
system must come from the Creator. Since the Creator has to convey this system to
man, therefore there should be messengers to convey to the people this way of life.
Further evidence of the peoples need for messengers is that the satisfaction of man's
instincts and organic needs is a necessity. If this satisfaction were left without a system
it would lead to an erroneous and abnormal fulfilment and thus result in man's misery.
Therefore, it is necessary to have a system to organise man's instincts and organic
needs. This system does not come from man, because his understanding of the
organisation of man's instincts and organic needs is liable to disparity, differences,
contradiction and is influenced by the environment in which he lives. Thus if this
organisation was left to man, the system would be liable to disparity, differences and
contradiction and would lead to man's misery. Therefore, this system must come from
God.
As for the proof that the Qur'an is revealed by God,it is well known that the
Qur'an is an Arabic book conveyed by Muhammad . Thus, it is either from the Arabs, from Muhammad , or from God, and it is not possible that it be from any
other except these three since it is Arabic in language and style.

The Quran, being considered a a source for legislation, description of reality, human society, psycology aswell as its literary characteristics not peotry or prose yet both simultaneously (not mentioning other characteristics),
It is false to say that the Qur'an comes from the Arabs because it challenged them to
bring forth anything similar to it. "Say, bring ten surahs like unto it." [Hud: 13]

"Say, bring one surah like unto it." [Yunus: 38]

A surah (chapter) is not such a big matter to attempt since a
surah of the Quran can be as small as 10 words.

They tried to bring the like of it but they failed to do so. Hence, this book is not of
their speech because they were unable to bring the like, of it, though it challenged
them, and they tried to bring the like of it. It is also false to say that it is from
Muhammad, since Muhammad is one of the Arabs, and whatever the height of
his genius, he is a human being and a member of his community and nation. Since the
Arabs themselves had failed to bring the like of it, this also applies to Muhammad ,
the Arab, that he could not bring the like of it. Thus, it is not from him. Moreover,
Muhammad has left narations of his own personal speech, whose authenticity is
beyond doubt. If any of these narations
were to be compared with any verse of the
Qur'an, there would be no similarity between them in style. He used to utter therevealed verse and say a comment at the same time and yet there is a difference
between them in style. Whenever any man attempts to diversify his speech, it will
remain similar in style, because it is a part of him. Since there is no similarity between
the hadeeth and the verse in style, the Qur'an is absolutely not Muhammad speech.
Besides this, none of the Arabs, who were the most versed with the styles of the
Arabic speech, alleged that the Qur'an is Muhammad speech, or that it is similar to
his speech. The only thing that they claimed was that Muhammad had brought
it from a Christian youth called Jabr. Allah refuted what they claimed and said:"We know indeed that they say it is a man that taught him. The tongue of him they wickedly point
to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear." [An-Nahl: 103]
Since it is proved that the Qur'an is neither the speech of the Arabs nor the speech
of Muhammad , it is definitely the speech of God, and consequently it is a
miracle for the one who brought it.
Because Muhammad brought the Qur'an, and the Qur'an is the speech of Allah
and His divine law, and because no one brings Allah's Shari’ah (law) except the
Prophets and the Messengers, then accordingly Muhammad must definitely be a
prophet and messenger, by rational proof.

Every prophet came to a nation bringing miracles which surpassed the greatest achievements that the nation was known for, in order to demonstate the superiority of God's majesty over his creation (mankind), thus Moses suppassed the Magic of Eygpt with a miracle resembling magic, Jesus surpassed the healing sciences of the Jews with a miracle resembling healing and Muhammed surpassed the Poetry and mastery of expression by the Arabs by a miracle resembling poetry and literary expression.

In all the 1400 years of Islam's existence, in all the people who were enemies of it and all the Arabic speakers today who are not muslim yet well versed in the Arabic language, None have taken up the challenge set down in the Quran to 'produce a Surah like it if you doubt this is from God'.
All they had to do was produce 10 words in the with the same style, conveyence of meaning and scope and thus Islam would be destroyed.

Imagine all the armies, money and lives thrown against the muslim world in history which were all needless IF they could simply produce a simple 10 word chapter.
(one 10 word chapter in the quran is surah ikhlas, if you care to look it up).

Isnt it amazing, if Muhammed, was a false prophet and he wrote the Quran, why give his enemies a chance to defeat his entire cause by challenging them to replicate it? wouldnt that seem like thelogical, political suicide to his cause if he was false?

Why is it that the Arabs used to warn their fellow inhabitants against listening to the word of Muhammed as they contained 'magic' which would steal away you senses and make you believe in him, does that sound like the accusation of sincere people or Intellectually defeated ones?

You decide, but suffice to say, Islam is proven three ways:
1. Miracle of the Quran which no Arabic speaker contests- yes, even christian arabs! I've spoken to them, yet they ,maintain their own religion because of their family.
2.Rationality of Islam and all its belief and law systems
3.The justice and fairness of its implementation, which was the majority factor of the mass conversion of most countries around the world (like mine- I know my own history and Islam, irradicated poverty in my country when it assimilated ours lands into it, Im from north africa).

Anyway, sorry to have written so much, thanks for reading it.

salam
Abdul

Posted by: mujtahid at February 26, 2005 1:27 PM

Greetings mujtahid

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
You seem to put a large amount of emphasis on speaking Arabic. I don’t believe that any scientific evidence exist that prove ideas in one language can not be properly translate into ideas in another language.

You compare the prophets Mohammad, Jesus and Moses.

Moses was given the power to performed miracles and prophesied.
Staff becomes a serpent, turns the water of Egypt into blood, plagues of frogs, gnats, flies, pestilence on Egyptian animals, boils, pestilence on Egyptian people, hail, locusts, darkness for 72 hours, death of all Egyptian firstborn both man and beast, the parting of the red sea and so on...

Jesus also preformed miracles and prophesied.
He raised the dead, walk on water, cast out demons, healed all their physical diseases, and so on and so on....

Mohammad preformed the miracle of writing in such an eloquent manner,
which the Arabs can not duplicate.

Lets just say for now that Mohamad was a prophet, hence the Qur’an is the very word of God (Allah).

In Surah 002.053 the Qur’an verifies the books of Moses (Torah) as coming from Allah.
002.053
YUSUFALI: And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

In Surah 002.089 we are told the Qur’an must conform to the word that was already given, being the Torah, Psalms, Gospel.
002.089
YUSUFALI: And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

In the book of Deuteronomy which is the word given to Moses by Allah (see Surah 002.053) here we find a test for prophets.

-But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.- (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ESV)

The above passage states that a prophet of God must speak about a future event and that event must come to pass just as the prophet foretold or he is not a true prophet of God and is to be rejected by men.

Sincerely
Bar

Posted by: Bar at February 27, 2005 1:42 PM

Greetings Bar,

Thankyou for your comment, while a thelogical debate in this forum is going slightly off topic, I would like to answer your question briefly and refer you to other sources of information for a more indepth explaination.

You take the Bible as your basis to assess the validity of subsequent claimants to prophethood, while the Quran does emphasize the previous relevations as originating from God, it does point out that the previous revelations were changed and corrupted in text and application into the form it has taken.
Proof of this, is the fact that the oldest manuscripts of the bible are 200 years after jesus and knowing written by people who never saw him (mathew, mark, luke and john). Suffice to say, there were many sects of early christians and the most powerfulest sect (who attained the backing of the roman leadership) dominated and wiped out most of the rest (Unitarians, bassilidians, marionites e.t.c).

So, current texts of the Bible have to be srutinized anyway, but Muhammed (saw) did make prophesies and it would be expected that if he was a Prophet of god, his prophesies should turn out to be true.

I will give you a few and the rest you can find out by searching the web or refering to the links I have put out.

1. When the early muslims numbered only five in the whole of Muhammed's (saw) home city (Mecca), he prophesised that Islam would conquer the Romans and the Persians (the two regional superpowers). The tribal community of Mecca (the Quraysh) use to mock the early muslims for this and say "ha, there goes the ones who will conquer the Romans and Persians".

2.The Prophet (saw) prophesized the conquering of Mecca even though they were the most militarily and politically powerful tribe in arabia.

3.The victory of Islam in Arabia

4.The defeat of the Romans and resurgence of the Romans in the persian-romano war (after a time when the Romans were severly beatenin AD615 such that their empire shrank and their future hung in the balance and the Quraysh boasted to the muslims that they would be defeated just like their polytheist counterparts defeated the monotheist romans, which the Quraysh used as a metaphor for their struggles against monopheist islam), the Quran said:

"The Roman Empire has been defeated
In a land close by;
But they, (even) after (this) Defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious — Within a few years. With God is the Decision,
In the Past and in the Future:
On that day shall the Believers rejoice"
(SURA RUM) Holy Qur'an 30: 2-4

about 9 years later the Roman inflicted severe defeat on the persians and drove them back to their lands.

5.The prophet (saw) foretold the decline of Islam and the return to backwardness of the Islamic civilisation- he also foretold of its rebirth (but this has yet to happen!!).

6.The knowing of unknown knowledge (by the prophet).

The City of Iram

The Qur'an mentions a city by the name of Iram (89:7). The city of Iram has been unknown to history, so unknown that even some Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur'an as being perhaps figurative, that Iram was possibly a man and not a city.

In 1973 the excavation in Syria at the site of the ancient city of Eblus uncovered the largest collection of cuneiform writings on clay tablets ever assembled. In fact, the library discovered in Eblus contains more day tablets that are more than four thousand years old than all the other tablets combined from all the other sites.

Interestingly enough, you will find the details in the National Geographic of December 1978 (pp.730- , esp. p.736) which confirms that in those tablets the city of Iram is mentioned. The people of Eblus used to do business with the people of Iram. So here in 1973, comes confirmation of the fact that, after all, there really was an ancient city by that name, wherever it was. How did it find its way into the Qur'an, we might ask?

Those Muslims who may have offered their comments, trying to explain away this reference that they were uncomfortable with, were outsmarted by the author of the Qur'an. They are those who would outsmart the author of the Qur'an They would attempt it. Primarily, their activity would involve trying to produce the evidence that the author of this book had a primitive understanding of the world around us.

7.More Unknown knowledge uncovered by the Quran:

Big Bang origination:
"Have not the disbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were one piece and We parted them? And We made every living thing from water. Will They not then believe?" (21:30).

These are a few evidences to show some of what you wanted,that the Prophet (saw) didnt just only reveal a miraculous message from God but brought the associated attributes of Prophethood as given to him by God.

Please refer to some links I found of search engine for a little more detail.

http://www.jamaat.net/muh-christ/Muh-Christ3.html

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=96

http://www.links2islam.co.uk/Homepage.htm#Science%20and%20Civilization

Posted by: mujtahid at March 1, 2005 3:43 PM

mujtahid
Go here http://www.co-jet.org/, click into the blog, then find one of my posts with my blog name "Bar" if you click it you will find my e-mail address. That is fit you don’t mind having your faith challenged.

Posted by: Bar at March 2, 2005 12:06 AM