In 30 years-time, Europe will be a welfare hell-hole consisting of 50% dhimmi atheists and 50% Muslims, with legislative and foreign policy decisions issued by a handful of plutocrats in Brussels in the service of their Arab paymasters. Jacques Chirac and Javier Solana will be gone but their legacy will live on forever.

Posted by: Charles Martel at February 27, 2005 7:02 AM

Once all the white middle class has fled how will the immigrant muslims be able to receive their social benefits....with no one to work and pay taxes there will be no way the Dutch govt will be able to support their muslim children.

When the host dies, the parasites that feed off it will die as well.

Posted by: USAgirl at February 27, 2005 7:19 AM

Flight of Middle Class Dutch is bad news for rest of Europe. When these stalwarts leave the 'ship' only Muslim rats left to breed and fight each other. Unfortunately if people aren't prepared to
FIGHT for their land then FLIGHT is the only alternative. Patriotism and pride in one's nation have become dirty words in Europe thus preparing the way to be overtaken by Islam.As for Chirac and Solana, they deserve a firing squad as both have played a large part in this disaster. Include
Blair in this too: Britain is in the throes of Dhimmitude because of his wretched immigration policy.

Posted by: Morgane at February 27, 2005 7:36 AM

Al Hamdulillah!Bismillah!

"If the Dutch are not willing to defend it, then it must be for the taking"- says Sheik Yer'mami.
And rightly so: "Sons of monkeys, sons of swine, I'm gonna make your country mine..."
Here he comes again:

http://www.terrorists-suck.org/fight/winds_of_jihad.html

Posted by: Terminator at February 27, 2005 7:51 AM

C'mon, Netherlanders! You fought the Spanish Habsburgs for 80 years! Should you cow before folks who show a willingness to go back to where they came from the minute you show a bit of backbone?

That goes for all other nationalities that read and post here.

Posted by: Kepha at February 27, 2005 8:47 AM

USAgirl

With the large supply of houses left behind by the upwardly mobile and ultimately converted into boxy tenements, along with cheap goods manufactured by tens of millions of Muslim workers in the expanded EU including Turkey, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, the cost of living in continental Europe will be dirt cheap. Think of the outdoor markets in North African countries today and you have a good picture of what the Champs Elysees will look like in 30 years.

Posted by: Charles Martel at February 27, 2005 8:53 AM

Such fun everyone has. I, for a start, despise the Dutch and always have. They are an essentially negative influence on world history. Their colonial empire was by far the most exploitative and piratical in all European history; they savagely exploited, not only the hapless natives (who, in the Dutch East Indies, were not infrequently butchered for convenience) but their own fellow-citizens (a Dutch governor of Capetown refused to listen to the city's own Dutch citizens, because "they had paid to live there, whereas the homeland Dutch had fought wars".) Once they could no longer do murder abroad, they imported murder, giving the world the great gift of legalized murder of the old and sick (euthanasia). Everything poisonous and suicidal in American and European recent history - including, indeed, complacently uncontrolled immigration - has reached perfection in the Low Countries. If they neither have the courage to have children (abortion) nor to live if things get a bit difficult (euthanasia), how can you expect them to show a little courage when the political situation gets tough? And I find it highly amusing that they should want to go to Canada of all places. Well, let them, and much good may it do them. If the Netherlands finally go up in flames, it will be the first bit of good it did to Europe since the last of its great painters died; it will serve as an example.

Posted by: Paolo at February 27, 2005 9:06 AM

Given the fact that the Dutch fought Hitler and the Nazi's for only six days during WW2, is it a surprise they're surrendering to the muslims so quickly?

This, for their "enlightened, anything goes" society.

(Historical fact: When Hitler's army entered then "Holland" during WW2, he threatened to destroy one city a day until the Dutch surrendered. It was when Rotterdam was leveled at it's center on the 6th day, that the Dutch surrendered to Hitler.)

Posted by: ROPMA.NET Webmaster at February 27, 2005 9:28 AM

Hei Paolo!

What are you talking about? I can only see exaggerations in your post!

The Dutch are a great people with a vast amount of technical, economical, and cultural contributions to the world culture.

Euthanasia is a very difficult topic and it does not have any room here to be discussed.

There are persons who will have a good laugh concerning the western infidels who are deconstructing themselves in grim debates whether one of their nations is better or worser than the other. Guess who will that be?

Although I am not Dutch and therefore cannot speak for them I feel that your post did a lot of damage.

So many *ironic* thanks for your nice pseudo-intellectual (or typical intellectual?) post that you produced.

Posted by: nippon at February 27, 2005 9:31 AM

It may not be possible to save the Dutch, but who will save the Rijksmuseum?

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at February 27, 2005 9:33 AM

Oranje boven!!

Posted by: nippon at February 27, 2005 9:35 AM

White flight has also recently accelerated in London. Where are the people going? Mostly to the counties around London with fast commuter links. London is still booming economically and the immigrant hoards are still pouring in to the UK to take advantage of a very generous welfare state with open borders. Eventually the flight out of London will be followed by flight from the UK. The retirement age population have already fled to rural areas of France and Spain. The whole system will collapse in about 15-20 years because the immigrants are not as economically productive as the native population. Or Europeans will rediscover their traditional love of very bloody wars.

Europeans no longer have a common culture or a vision of their place in the world. White Europeans are committing cultural suicide but they still sneer at the "dumb bible-bashing" Americans.

Posted by: 1630r at February 27, 2005 9:48 AM

ROPMA.NET,

you should study some good books about military history or military strategy of the second world war! The Dutch had NO chance to resist the Wehrmacht. Imagine a FLAT tiny country (just 35.000sqkm, the size of a German province) to be overrun by a far superior army with mobile heavy armoured forces and a modern air force which uses parachutes in order to destroy the then World- War-I- level fortress of Eben Emael.

Posted by: nippon at February 27, 2005 9:49 AM

Paolo must have been jilted by a blonde Dutch girl (or boy) in the past; no doubt unimpressed by Paolo’s limited charms. Poor Paolo must have been so traumatised that it’s impaired his reasoning.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 10:01 AM

Looks like with the accelerating flight from Europe,
in 25-30 years, it will no longer be the European
Union , but the European Caliphate. Forget about fine Dutch beer, forget about art and music. The works of Beethoven, Rembrandt and other famous Dutch names will be destroyed in the same way as the
Buddhist statues in Taliban Afghanistan.

The future looks bleak.

Posted by: sococm at February 27, 2005 10:05 AM

The problem is that the Dutch that are leaving are to stupid to realize they themselves caused the problem with their extreme liberal ideas. They will only quicken the spread of their sick views to Candians and New Zealanders. They should not be allowed to leave. Let them stay and fight and clean up the mess they allowed to occur in Holland and Europe. White flight will not work stay and fight what you have created instead of creating messes over here. Yes they flee Islam but they lack the ability to understand the fear that drives them. They will not be an asset to our country becasue the disease of liberlism has made them easy prey. They need to fact the facts at home not here.

Posted by: ecil_man at February 27, 2005 10:48 AM

Where are you from ecil_man? Judging by your post, either you're semi-literate or a recent immigrant from a non-English speaking country.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 12:28 PM

No,when thehost dies,the parasites will not die off,butthey will move on to yet another victim...

Posted by: adela at February 27, 2005 12:30 PM

It’s all very well for the wealthy middle class to flee the Netherlands, but how many of those leaving where up until very recently (or maybe still for all we know) ardent supporters of the ideology of multiculturalism?

What about the working class native populations these people leave behind? What about the ordinary people of Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Utrecht and a dozen other Dutch towns who are not wealthy enough, have the right skills or contacts to escape? It’s these people who have lived for the last 30 years with the direct consequences of mass immigration from Islamic lands; consequences of a social engineering policy they never asked for or were even bothered to be consulted about. And it is these people who will bare the brunt of the coming social upheavals that will engulf not only the Netherlands, but much of western Europe in the coming decades.

For those multiculturalist among the ranks of the fleeing, I say ‘thanks’ for the catastrophic mess you have helped create and now leave behind for others to face.

Posted by: nobby at February 27, 2005 12:30 PM

No one knows if those leaving were supporters of the policies that have now caused them to leave. It is more likely that they were passive observers of what others did for them. In many European countries the population is ill-informed about Islam, as non-Muslims are almost everywhere unless they have been directy on the receiving end for a long time, and even then there are reasons why non-Muslims cannot face up to the real nature of the ideology, and thus of the endlessness of the menace (as in Israel, with its current "Land for Nothing" policy, one more catastrophic burnt offering or oblation laid at the spirits of both Munich and Hudaibiyya).

Surely taking pleasure in the coming-apart of any European country is senseless Schadenfreude, even if one sometimes cannot resist the impulse. After one has heard Lyse Doucet with the Sunday BBC Newshour one wants to see many of its European callers-in (one Englishwoman, living in France, the organizer of some "Club des potes" which is apparently dedicated to the proposition that all Americans are created evil, and who ranted on both about how the "Iraq war was all about money" (presumably the U.S. was out to rob Iraq blind) and that "the Iraq war was costing the Americans so much they wanted the Europeans to help pay for it.") The farrago of illogic and nonsense and lies that she offered, and that was seconded by the hard-voiced, nasty Lyse Doucet, was not to be believed -- except that so many others echoed similar sentiments.

Yes, one knows that some in Europe deserve punishment, but not everyone. One can be infuriated, and still realize that the Europeans need to be helped. Many may be corrupt and illogical and cruelly anti-American and antisemitic (which was never morally acceptable; after Hitler, it is a crime that should beidentified, mocked, and the subject of both social and, where possible, legal sanction). But not all. Some are the helpless lemmings in an environment that has been created by Muslim propagandists, who have been working carefully -- see Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" -- along with corrupt members of various elites in European countries, with France in the lead, and in addition to hirelings, a number of non-Muslim apologists, prompted by anti-Americanism, or antisemitism, or a hatred for their own civilization, or more than one of these overlapping sentiments, and seeing in Islam a vehicle for the resentments and hatreds that they feel, make common cause with it. Many of those who collaborated with the Nazis were the same types: either they did it for the money, or they did it out of, inter alia, hatred of messy liberal mass democracy (represented by America), antisemitism (represented then by Jews, and now by "Israel" which is easier to attack nowadays), and dislike of what they saw as the "decadent West" in need of renewal -- through goosesteps, and heil-Hitlering, and Order, and the Group, and Us Against Them, and all those other things that are so easily found in Islam.

Posted by: Hugh at February 27, 2005 12:50 PM

For the blatantly uninformed here. The Dutch never had the intention of creating a multicultural paradise. On the contrary, the Netherlands and most of western Europe has been overwhelmed by the scope and nature of recent immigration. The immigrants here in Holland are (1) the progeny of guest workers who were supposed to have returned to their native country after their contract had expired but didn't and later brought over their 10-20 kids to join them. (2) so-called refugees and (3) illegal aliens. The great majority of Dutch were never in favour of mass immigration. Nowadays the Dutch politicians are in the fore-front of pointing to the problems of islam and immigration and have called islam what is is i.e. a backward, primitive culture.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 12:51 PM

Arhopala~ your name has my interest. All I am finding is caterpillar and butterfly info on the name... how did you choose it?

Some people do use translation engines to make their posts in English here. So! what are your thoughts on Dutch immigration?

Posted by: Gary at February 27, 2005 12:54 PM

No one knows if those leaving were supporters of the policies that have now caused them to leave. It is more likely that they were passive observers of what others did for them. In many European countries the population is ill-informed about Islam, as non-Muslims are almost everywhere unless they have been directy on the receiving end for a long time, and even then there are reasons why non-Muslims cannot face up to the real nature of the ideology, and thus of the endlessness of the menace (as in Israel, with its current "Land for Nothing" policy, one more catastrophic burnt offering or oblation laid at the spirits of both Munich and Hudaibiyya).

Surely taking pleasure in the coming-apart of any European country is senseless Schadenfreude, even if one sometimes cannot resist the impulse. After one has heard Lyse Doucet with the Sunday BBC Newshour one wants to see many of its European callers-in (one Englishwoman, living in France, the organizer of some "Club des potes" which is apparently dedicated to the proposition that all Americans are created evil, and who ranted on both about how the "Iraq war was all about money" (presumably the U.S. was out to rob Iraq blind) and that "the Iraq war was costing the Americans so much they wanted the Europeans to help pay for it.") The farrago of illogic and nonsense and lies that she offered, and that was seconded by the hard-voiced, nasty Lyse Doucet, was not to be believed -- except that so many others echoed similar sentiments.

Yes, one knows that some in Europe deserve punishment, but not everyone. One can be infuriated, and still realize that the Europeans need to be helped. Many may be corrupt and illogical and cruelly anti-American and antisemitic (which was never morally acceptable; after Hitler, it is a crime that should beidentified, mocked, and the subject of both social and, where possible, legal sanction). But not all. Some are the helpless lemmings in an environment that has been created by Muslim propagandists, who have been working carefully -- see Bat Ye'or's "Eurabia" -- along with corrupt members of various elites in European countries, with France in the lead, and in addition to hirelings, a number of non-Muslim apologists, prompted by anti-Americanism, or antisemitism, or a hatred for their own civilization, or more than one of these overlapping sentiments, and seeing in Islam a vehicle for the resentments and hatreds that they feel, make common cause with it. Many of those who collaborated with the Nazis were the same types: either they did it for the money, or they did it out of, inter alia, hatred of messy liberal mass democracy (represented by America), antisemitism (represented then by Jews, and now by "Israel" which is easier to attack nowadays), and dislike of what they saw as the "decadent West" in need of renewal -- through goosesteps, and heil-Hitlering, and Order, and the Group, and Us Against Them, and all those other things that are so easily found in Islam.

Every sign of defeatism, including those who are picking up stakes and leaving, should be a sign for alarm, not of pleasure. Perhaps those Dutch, leaving their own country, feeling that they no longer belong, will in their new countries not simply settle quietly in, but give interviews, help to sound the alarm, lest -- like the Copts in Jersey City -- they find that they are safe nowhere, that Islam is coming soon, to a country or a street-corner near you. Unless you make efforts to stop it, and you will only do that if you realize fully what kind of a fascism, in essence, it is. And no amount of gobbledybook about the tangential or imaginary Islam of some recent converts, as one who goes about touting his "Sufism" but has been taken apart for his naivete about the nature of Islamic teachings -- taken apart both by scholars of Islam, and by Muslims.

One cannot rely on those "reverts" who blandly assert the non-existence of dhimmitude, and who offer, not so much Islam, as their "own private Islam," by way of a defense. That will not do. And no one should bet their own safety on the likelihood that Western "reverts" acting out their own spiritual desarroi, and having settled on Islam, are better guides to the real Islam than, say, Ibn Warraq, or Ali Sina, or Azam Kamguian.

One does not suddenly become an authority on the theory and practice of Islam simply by reciting the Shahada and living among the most unrepresentative of long-westernized Muslims (as, say, in Bosnia). No, we are not about to trust our security to that sort of "expert" who keeps telling us it is all a question of "Wahhabi" Islam. Nonsense.

Posted by: Hugh at February 27, 2005 12:56 PM

Arhopala~ your name has my interest. Its not polite
to ask about me without telling about yourself first. So my Eglish sucks so what? Where are you from what is your native language? Are you male or female or neither or both?
The point is most here see the twin evils of islam and liberialism. The fact is thou the liberals will have there throats slit with the rest of us unless they wake up.

Posted by: ecil_man at February 27, 2005 1:38 PM

Hi Gary

Arhopala is a genus of lycaenid butterflies, predominantly in Southeast Asia. The genus Arhopala contains some particularly beautiful species. I have a particular interest in butterflies and a general interest in nature, which is why I chose the nick.

As to immigration, do you mean my views on past or present Dutch immigration?

As to past immigration, I think the Dutch government (not the Dutch people) made a horrible mistake by being too lenient and allowing the guest workers to stay and allowing family reunification. Any politician who questioned this policy was also ostracised. This blunder can be attributed to the Dutch social democrat PM of the time den Uyl, among others, one of den Uyl’s many blunders.

As to present immigration, I like the Danish approach. That is, severely limit immigration (or halt immigration as far as I am concerned) but increase support to the third world i.e. help provide better education and family planning to improve their quality of life. I would also focus help on those nations which are not anti-western in their outlook, which excludes quite a few of the muslim countries. As far as the million or so muslims that are already in the Netherlands is concerned, I think that they should be stimulated to return to their native countries since they are having such a pronounced negative effect on the quality of life in the Netherlands.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 1:56 PM

My native language is Dutch ecil_man. It's "will have their throats slit" by the way, not "will have there throats slit". There and their may sound the same but are not the same. What's your native language out of curiosity? I'm also curious about what you exactly mean by liberialism (no doubt you mean liberalism or do you?). Are you, for example, referring to neo-liberal economic theory and the possible negative effect of globalisation?

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 2:06 PM

Ok Ecil and Arhopala, go easy with chewing on each other :P We're all here for the same reason...

Thanks Arhopala, that's what we're after, Dialogue.

Posted by: Gary at February 27, 2005 2:21 PM

True Gary, we are here for the same reason. I just don't appreciate some of the comments that have been made here about the Dutch, which I'm sure you understand.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 2:27 PM

Altough my first, uninhibited mental positioning upon the controversy brought up in this page is to take sides with 'Paolo' and 'ecil_man', because both seem to understand the root of the problem, it is Hugh's toughtful, calm judgement what finally closes the argument by placing the blame of the Dutch exodus in a discriminatory manner. I myself have always positioned myself along the lines these JW/DW pages transpire but it will not make me inmune to the fatal consequences of my conuntrymen's poor perception of the dangers ahead. That said, I have always considered the Dutch a nation of moral morons, hence their present plight, for the predator always choses the lame sheep to start with.

Posted by: Cid Campeador at February 27, 2005 2:44 PM

Arhopala -
No, it has never even crossed my mind to have Dutch friends, let alone a Dutch lover. First, I happen to be Catholic, and even the so-called Dutch Catholics aren't Catholics. Second, how can anyone possibly not understand that euthanasia might indeed be found as the thing beyond the pale, the thing so revolting, so utterly and wholly unjustifiable, that anyone who practices, defends it, or does not fight with every legal means to end it, is as far as I am concerned lower than a pariah? Euthanasia is the murder of the old and the sick. Period. And my view, as a person who has stood by a number of bedsides and has a deeply disabled close relation is: keep your foul hands off my brothers and sisters or I'll duff you up. This is something on which I am not disposed to argue: it is a matter of primary human right and duty. Nobody has a right to kill another human being except in legitimate war or self-defence. End of story.

And nobody has even dared contradict my statement that the history of Dutch colonial rule was uniquely noisome.

Posted by: Paolo at February 27, 2005 2:47 PM

Another linguistically-challenged idiot joins the discussion, welcome cid campeador.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 2:54 PM

Arhopala

I see that besides a Dutch you are an arrogant idiot yourself, decrying other people's opinions on the base of your superior knowledge of a foreign language.

Posted by: Cid Campeador at February 27, 2005 3:00 PM

Paolo, you're stupidity seems to know no bounds. I imagine few people dared or better bothered to argue with you on any issue because you're too dim-witted to understand anything beyond your ingrained misconceptions. Why don't you keep your views on euthanasia and the Dutch Catholics (which is the most stupid statement I've heard in a long time) to yourself because this isn't the forum to spew such tripe.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 3:05 PM

It's not only your linguistic ability that is inferior cid.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 3:07 PM

The headline on this article is the most honest I've seen from the NYT. Perhaps they are getting a clue.

Be sure to click on the photo to see the entire Konings family. Somehow I suspect that five stolen bicycles were not the main problem: the parents surely want to protect their blonde daughter from the Muslim gang rapists.

Posted by: Dana at February 27, 2005 3:07 PM

The Islamic threat is at its most dangerous when it usurps cultures from within by way of lobbying, politicking and use of "race card" protectionism.

This threat exists in full force right here in the United States of America and Islam is taking full advantage of inroads in prisons, schools, book stores, charities and by means of our own Constitution.

What is happening to the Dutch is just a symptom of the bigger picture. Islam is not Christianity by any stretch -- it has not undergone any changes via a Martin Luther to smooth out any of its rough edges or to educate the people about metaphor vs reality -- it is as virulent today as it was 1400 years ago and only getting more militant by the day.

Every person outside the circle of Islam should be justly concerned about the future of this planet if Islam is allowed to spread its well-constructed lie of a cult across every nation and state. With more momentum fed by a new age of satellite dishes and fueled by minds like those at Al Jazeera, this threat almost read like a Stephen King novel, but I promise you, the threat is real and dire.

Fight for your homelands.

Posted by: Foehammer at February 27, 2005 3:14 PM

Arhopala,

It is not the strenght of your arguments what makes you less idiotic. In fact, conceding that your argumentation lacks strenght is doing you a favour, for I cannot see in your posts anything but insults, you silly Dutch moron.

Posted by: Cid Campeador at February 27, 2005 3:17 PM

Cid Campeador, Arhopala and Paolo,

may I ask how old you are?
PLEASE!!!! Stop that nonsense!

To Paolo: WHAT has the history of colonial Netherlands got to do with the trend of emigrating Dutch??? Do you want to tell us that the Dutch deserve their fate because they exploited the tabacco fields of Sumatra or the tin mines of Sulawesi?

If you want to do some Dutch bashing get the F*** out of here and surf websites where you will enjoy the company of like-minded people!

There you can discuss the bloody history of the "Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie"

Posted by: nippon at February 27, 2005 3:39 PM

Before we get too down on Europe, remember that the US also has big problems with immigration, and politicians too craven to protect the borders and our cultural integrity. The same "open borders" logic that was used to justify the mass immigration of Muslims into Europe is also used to justify massive illegal immigration into the US.

We too have a large portion of our general population and political class that buys into multiculturalism versus melting pot scam. We too have centers of higher learning and other organizations (read: ACLU) that support the destruction of American culture.

We also have a so-called "conservative" President who keeps the "Islam is the religion of peace" mantra going, as Saudi-funded mosques and the likes of CAIR spread their poison in our fair country. This conservative (term used very loosely) wants to open our borders even further. He pays lip service to border security while his administration regularly undermines immigration enforcement. At the same time increasing numbers of illegals from the Middle East cross the US-Mexico border.

It CAN happen here, and we in the US better get off our behinds so we don't wake up one day and find ourselves in the same boat. Indulging in fits of cultural superiority is a useless and wasteful exercise. Count us lucky that we CAN derive useful lessons from what is happening in Europe while still having the opportunity to forstall the same from happening in the US.

The soap box is now available for the next interested party...
Treehugger

Posted by: treehugger at February 27, 2005 3:47 PM

Arhopala - so the fact that I regard euthanasia as a crime makes me stupid. Would you at least care to offer anything that comes remotely close to being an argument? As for the Dutch so-called Catholic Church - three words. Schillebeex. Dutch Catechism.

Posted by: Paolo at February 27, 2005 4:56 PM

Oh, and Arhopala? Before you open your ready mouth about anyone's standard of English, learn not to confuse "your" and "you're". That's the oldest, dumbest, lamest spelling fuck-up in the book.

Posted by: Paolo at February 27, 2005 4:58 PM

"throat was slit, execution style"???

Hmmm... who performs an execution by attempting to hack off a head? Even most abattoirs just slit the throat as far as I know?

Correction: "throat was slit, Islamic style."

In a similar manner to "The entire muslim world was turned into a glass parking lot, American cowboy style."

Posted by: 2468 at February 27, 2005 5:21 PM

We can keep bitching and moaning how lame the Dutch are and how horribly wrong it was to accept a crapflood of militant religious zealots into my country, one question does remain: how the hell are we going to tackle this predicament and save Holland from total Islamic takeover?

Posted by: Jan Vink at February 27, 2005 5:41 PM

Wow with friends like that who needs enemies.

Posted by: chuck H. at February 27, 2005 5:44 PM

I don't blame this Dutch family for leaving. But the time is going to come when there is no place to go that islam has not left it's stink. What then? Will you fight? I refuse to become a dhimmi in my homeland, hopefully enough people will still have the desire to breathe free, and will put an end to these nazis' dream of world domination.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 27, 2005 5:52 PM

Amen to that Carolyn2.

JRR Tolkien had it right.

When asked by Frodo why they are continuing on a probably hopeless quest, Sam Gamgee replies "Because there is some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for"!

Treehugger

Posted by: treehugger at February 27, 2005 6:05 PM

Why is it these western european countries can't realize that they are wrecking their own way of life by this unlimited immigration. How can most of us see the problem but they can't. Last week I heard Michael Savage say that liberalism is a mental disorder. I am inclined to agree.

Posted by: gerard150 at February 27, 2005 6:45 PM

Jan Vink:how the hell are we going to tackle this predicament and save Holland from total Islamic takeover?

Good question, as it applies to all Western countries.

There have been suggestions, ranging from expulsion of muslims, to making a concerted effort to integrate muslims into their respective societies.

1. Expulsion - not politically possible in the current phase of the war.

2. Exchange muslim populations with the persecuted Christians in muslim nations - kills two birds with one stone. Again, not politically possible in the current phase of the war.

3. A concerted effort to integrate muslims. This puts the onus on the host society rather then immigrant muslims, and is likely to face opposition from the hosts.

4. Make an effort to make the West as inhospitable to the practice of islamic rituals. As an example, the muslim call to prayer, is an encroachment on the public square, and should be regarded as illegal.

The muslim slaughter of animals is clearly an affront to Western humane methods of dealing with animals.

A very hardline on forced marriages, honour killings etc.

There are several more that one can think of.

5. Convert muslims in the West away from islam

The last two are for the moment, the only realistic options we have. If we can turn muslims in the West away from islam, faster then population growth + conversion to islam (in the West only), coupled with making the West inhospitable to islamic rituals, then many muslims will leave. They will leave as they will be concerned that muslim men and particularly muslim women, are likely to drift away from the tent of islam, and thus put the whole Jihad/umma under jeopardy, both in the West and in dar al islam.

-------------------------

Folks - stay focussed on the main enemy of freedom.

Posted by: DP111 at February 27, 2005 6:50 PM

Nippon

That’s what I have been telling these simpletons cid el campeador, paolo etc. They just come out and say things like “If the Netherlands finally go up in flames, it will be the first bit of good it did to Europe since the last of its great painters died; it will serve as an example.” and “I have always considered the Dutch a nation of moral morons” etc. etc. This is an explicit insult to all Dutch people and I think as a Dutch person I have a right to respond. They have no right to insult me or other Dutch people like this. How would a Spaniard or Italian or American on the channel feel if I said all Spaniards or Italians or Americans were morons and similar things? I’m here because I see Islam as a threat to Europe and thought I would find like-minded people, not people who make outrageous and insulting remarks about the Dutch.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 7:22 PM

DP111, convert the muslims to what, christianity? Unfortunately history seems to show that the more tolerant religion cedes to the more intolerant and muslims seem to be very resilient to conversion. In the west I also see more western converts to islam than the other way around. Apparently these converts don't see themselves as traitors to their culture but they are. Even Cat Stevens who's father was a Greek cypriot converted to islam after all the Greeks have been through with islam. It's just hard to understand. I think the only thing that will keep them at bay is a form of territoriality i.e. the establishment of areas where islam is not welcome, which should include all of western and most of eastern Europe.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 27, 2005 7:34 PM

I may not be the best with words. But the west including the US is in big trouble. I have argued with the librarians about the books on Islam. It seems that CAIR is the one that picks them. I have argued till blue in the face with Christians that truely belive Islam is nothing more than a religion that has the same God as Christians and Jews. In fact they say Islam is a far better religon than the Jewish one since they belive in Jesus. The fact is. Islam is so evil few Christians can truely understand how evil and deadly for mankind it is. There are really only two options. One is totally warfare against Islam or we have to accept the fact mans future will be that of Islam only. I personnelly think Islam will win. Then mankind will quickly enter a new dark ages from whence it will never recover and the ability to advance in science will be gone forever. Maybe if man survives he will exist only as an exmaple of how a species that was on the evolutionary path can let false belief in religon destroy any hope of greatness. If thats the case we don't deserve to live.
Face it. Its either total war or totally submission to Islam. There really is no other choice in the long run.

Posted by: ecil_man at February 27, 2005 8:09 PM

Stop moving people, start moving freedom.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at February 27, 2005 8:27 PM

OT but extremely relevant:

http://austinbay.net/blog/index.php?p=96#comment-979

Mark Steyn's latest column roused a strom on the blogosphere. Austin bay disagreed with its premises and Steyn replied with many other notables in the blogosphere weighing in. Very insightful commentary, if you ask me.

Do glace through.

Posted by: voletti at February 27, 2005 9:31 PM

Arhopala:

It was conversion away from islam rather then to Christianity that was the option that I wrote. And it was one of the options that I pointed out that are available.

Admittedly the Christian faith is pacifist at its core and may not withstand the violence that islam brings to conflict. But we are not just Christians alone but secular culturalists as well. You know the division of "church and state" was not meant as public policy but as a personal way of following the teachings of Jesus while fulfilling the obligations to the state.

As for the conversion rate of muslims to Christianity or other and vice versa, it is diffucult to estimate numbers. Converts to islam are loudly proclaimed by muslims, while apostates of islam have to keep their identity hidden. If the fear that apostates are in can be removed by harsh punishment of islamists who treaten them, then we may see quite a different picture.

The geopolitical option you suggest, is also something that I have advocated on JW and LGF for quite a while. Coupled with this option, one needs to also reduce as much economic, cultural and scientific ties with the islamic world. This will bring the islamic world to its kneees in short order and force them to examine the main tenets of their society. In fact this was precisely what was happening through until the 1960's, until islam was given a reprieve by the West by allowing immigration, and the influx of huge amounts of petro-dollars to the islamic world.

Posted by: DP111 at February 27, 2005 9:41 PM

DP111 and arhopala:

It seems like what you're saying has been thought of before and expressed neatly on this forum. Dunno who said it though.

Moslems use the threat "Join islam or else..." and it seems like the only way out for the west is to get back in the same vein with a "Leave islam or else..." threat.

And it was an ex-moslem whho mentioned that every moslem is perfectly capable of lying for the faith by claiming to move away from it. the only sure way to prove he's really dissociated is to get him to burn that holy book of theirs.....

Posted by: voletti at February 27, 2005 11:08 PM

To the Dutch: It is the pattern.

Mohammed had poets killed when they opposed his views,
thehundred year old abu afak, the Medinan mother Asma Marwan.
And when Kab the poet returned to Mecca
His cousin who now followed the prophet mohammed said to him,
you must become a muslim or else flee for your life.
Kab wrote a poem praising mohammed that says:
“Indeed the prophet is a light providing guidance to the world,
and a drawn sword from the armoury of allah.”
Mohammed reward Kab with his mantle and for then on,
The “Poem of the Mantle” remains holy to muslims
And Kab remains the greatest of all artistic submitters.
It is a pattern woven over and over again,
Its design is in the books, the trilogy,
The Koran, the Hadiths of Muslim or Bukhari,
The Sira, or the biography of the prophet’s life,
The words of the moon god allah
and the pattern of mohammed’s life.

Posted by: the poetess at February 27, 2005 11:16 PM

To the Dutch the Brits,
the French, the Germans,
the Italians, the Poles,
the Spanish, the Greeks,
the Hindus, the Jews,
the Xians, the Buddhists
and Daoists, Chinese,
Japanese, lovers
of the earth and sky,
to all others
I cry, "we must unify."
We must see we are all
victims of jihad,
and must leave behind
the peaceful mind of another time
engage the enemy at hand, the one
who threatens our land,
our freedoms, our lives,
with theocratic mono-culture,
imperialistic demands of language,
barbaric customs with women made
slaves and held captive in their home.
We must unify, leave our differences aside,
and focus on our common enemy,
as it is his wish that we all divide,
that we cannot keep a laser light
on the jihad he wages day and night.

Posted by: the poetess at February 27, 2005 11:43 PM

DP111 and ecl-man: Who says Christianity is "tolerant"? I'm just not violent against anyone who's not violent against me. I still believe that Christianity is true, and that Islam, like logical positivism, Marxism, and a few others is false.

It seems that the so-called "Christians" you've run into are just post-Christian moderns with a residual sentimental attachment to the name of Jesus.

As for Cat Stevens and his Cypriot ancestry, my guess is that once he became a British celebrity, he probably looked on the old man as just another quaint relic of bygone days.

Frankly, while it is probably the case that Cat Stevens is a sincere Muslim (he's been one for decades), I usually don't put too much stock in the conversions of onetime media celebrities. Some of these people simply latch onto whatever is fashionable at a particular moment, and are more interested in the religion or cult's "attention getting" value than in what it truly believes. Home-grown Buddhists found from Chittagong and points east, for example, are a bit to the right of Pope Paul VI on abortion and sexuality; while the ethics-less Hollywood crowd falls over itself for Chan (the real name of Zen) and Lamaism while hanging onto their liberated lifestyles.

Posted by: Kepha at February 28, 2005 1:18 AM

Paolo, believe it or not, I agree with you about euthanasia and abortion--and I am a hardcore DUTCH Gereformeerde Christian (albeit the pastor who presided at my marriage was Sino-Javanese-American, not Dutch).

Goode Dag, Mynheer Arhopla (oder Myvrouwe?).

Also, if you drink something that sounds, in your language, a little like tea, it's because back in the 17th century, a Chinese merchant carried the dried leaf to what's now Tainan, Taiwan, sold it to a merchant of the Vereenigte Oostindische Maatschappij, who in turn sent it to Europe via Java and the Cape of Good Hope. When the Dutchman asked his supplier what the aromatic dried leaf was, he heard something like "tei" (since southern Fujian and much of Taiwan speaks Hoklo rather than the "cha" of Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hakka).

Also, the Dutch introduced Ming China's famous blue-and-white ware to Europe via the same route.

The South Moluccans and people of northern Sulawesi were not happy to see either the Japanese or Sukarno' whatever they may have thought of the Dutch.

The Dutch also opened the land I was born on to the commerce of the world (Nieuw Amsterdam).

Hugh, you are absolutely right about Schadenfreude. Further, though, while I can understand a coming European backlash against Islam, as a slightly offwhite person, I still am glad to be an American.

Posted by: Kepha at February 28, 2005 1:52 AM

Came to this thread late.

Stop bashing the Dutch. We all need to unify so let's do it.

Posted by: Voltaire at February 28, 2005 2:04 AM

Kepha: all my life I have seen certain progressions - from contraception to liberalized divorce to abortion to euthanasia - be presented as not just beneficent but inevitable all over Europe. I have found myself increasingly in revolt against this sort of beneficence; and I made up my mind that euthanasia was the point where I will not even begin to concede. It is the foulest abuse of language, the invention of a pretty word (in very vile, ungrammatical Greek) to mean a simple concept: the murder of the old and the sick. If people spoke like people and said: "kill your grandmother", even the average Dutchman would see exactly what degradation he was subjecting himself to; but they talk rubbish about "dying with dignity", and your nation actually are proud of it. There have actually been cases of doctors - or can they still be called doctors, after so much perversion of the Hippocratic Oath? - deferred to their own professional body and condemned for REFUSING to murder people. A country that is PROUD of this quite literally deserves anything that can happen to it. As for the deliberate destruction of Christianity on Dutch soil, I am neither surprised that your Pastor was not a full Dutchman nor that you find yourself more at ease in the United States. I suggest you have a look, if you have not already, at the Buttiglione affair, and at what it said about the determination of a certain kind of perverted North European liberal to exclude Christian belief from the Europe that Christianity made. These people are, in every sense of the word, parricides, and they deserve the sanction that the Fourth Commandment implies for everyone who does not "honour their father and their mother".

Posted by: Paolo at February 28, 2005 2:46 AM

It's sad that it has to come to this. I don't judge or damn these people for leaving versus staying and fighting. The couple in the picture are like normal parents, they want the best for their kids. In this case, they fear for their safety as well. It is natural for parents to want to keep their kids safe. There are all sorts of risks and dangers in everyday, normal life but in their case, they've got the added danger of coming under threat from lawless foreigners, people who come in, demand and threaten, contributing little if anything. Five bicycles stolen is pretty outrageous. My son has had one bike stolen in 5 years, and we thought that was outrageous enough. And to be threatened with physical violence is terrible for kids to have to put up with. That is a risk everywhere, but seems worse in areas where indolent Muslim youth hang around, expressing their arrogant Islamness.

There was an interesting point in the article about Holland being "full-up", citing that villages have all grown so big, they're joined all together, wiping out green spaces. They worry about being called racist or anti-immigrant for pointing this out, yet it is common-sense to have concern for your green spaces. You need them. You can't have an entire country full of paved concrete, cars, houses and people shoulder to shoulder. The doors should have been closed years ago, yet they stupidly allow more in, out of fear of what others might think of them.

So the successful, money-making type people are leaving by the tens of thousands. No surprise. For your hard work and high taxes, you expect something in return - safety and peace of mind being some of the basic needs.

Hopefully these Dutch people won't move to western suburbs of Sydney, for they'll find the same thing.

Posted by: feralee at February 28, 2005 5:02 AM

Dag Kepha

Zeg maar Arhopala, meneer hoeft niet. Ben jij soms Indisch? Asal dari mana dan selamat datang.

DP111

I agree. I didn't mean conversion to christianity is the only option and am not christian myself. Anything would be better than islam as you note. I also think we should find alternatives to oil as fast as possible so we can end our dependency on muslim oil and stop pumping money into jihadists. It would also do the environment some good.

Thanks Ummagumma for the support.

Feralee, I think the point has passed that a lot of Dutch people are worried about being called racist when they advocate stricter immigration policies or note that nature is disappearing from Holland. This was also what Pim Fortuyn and others have said. Unfortunately there is still a very strong tendency from the left to ostracize people who question islam and immigration, which is a pity because there are a lot of issues on which the left has some good points such as income inequitability, solidarity with the third world etc. Unfortunately the left also have come to depend on foreign-born votes and have quite a few islamic politicians, which I don't think is a good thing.

ecil_man, although you paint a somewhat pessimistic picture I fear that you may have a point. You may be happy to hear that a large portion of the Dutch have a strong distrust of islam and realise the threat it poses. In fact as far as realising the threat of islam I'd say that Holland is in the avant garde.

Posted by: Arhopala at February 28, 2005 7:13 PM

Too bad a few scared Dutch are considering fleeing their homeland because of the Muslims. But is this so surprising, given the (largely Dutch) Afrikaners fleeing South Africa after they handed over that country to the black savages? I see a pattern emerging... No, it would be far better for the Dutch to stay and fight. The Muslim presence in Europe needs to be eradicated by any means necessary. Perhaps they need a few white volunteers to help them find the courage? I know at least one white American who would dearly love to help his kith and kin take back their continent.

Posted by: Willy at March 1, 2005 12:31 AM

Too bad a few scared Dutch are considering fleeing their homeland because of the Muslims. But is this so surprising, given the (largely Dutch) Afrikaners fleeing South Africa after they handed over that country to the black savages? I see a pattern emerging... No, it would be far better for the Dutch to stay and fight. The Muslim presence in Europe needs to be eradicated by any means necessary. Perhaps they need a few white volunteers to help them find the courage? I know at least one white American who would dearly love to help his kith and kin take back their continent.

Posted by: Willy at March 1, 2005 12:31 AM

Goode Dag, Arhopla. No, I'm not Indonesian--at least as far as I know. I'm just an ethnically checkered guy who "wuz bawned in Noo Joysey" (once part of Nieuw Nederland), and, according to our American militant godless, needs to be retroceded to Great Britain because a clergyman represented it at the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

Posted by: Kepha at March 1, 2005 1:30 AM

Goode Dag, Arhopla. No, I'm not Indonesian--at least as far as I know. Just an ethnically checkered guy "wut wuz bawned in Noo Joisey".

Well, I will admit that I think the de-Christianization of the large part of the West is a big part of our Western cultural malaise (and this from a guy who might've voted Democratic had they run Joe Liebermann!). Some of the "lifetsyle" problems Paolo decries are clear-cut cases of Western civilizational suicide.

Posted by: Kepha at March 1, 2005 1:33 AM

Dag wederom Kepha

Hmm, I don't think I can agree with anything Paolo said. I think euthanasia or abortion should be a personal right and shouldn't have anything to do with finding islam a repulsive religion. I people with differnt belief systems i.e. buddhists, hindu's, christians, atheists need to get together and put a halt to islamic aggression. It's just pure insanity that some people don't feel at home in their own country any more and feel forced to leave and abandoned by their own political establishment. I lived by the way a couple of years in Indonesia and really saw how islam has had such a negative effect on an otherwise friendly and tolerant people. It's probably worse now in Indonesia than when VS Naipaul wrote his book "Among the Believers".

PS where did you learn your somewhat archaic Dutch?

Posted by: Arhopala at March 1, 2005 12:59 PM