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The amazing story of Yong Ki Kwon, yet another convert to Islam who has misunderstood the religion. One would think, as long as we are being compelled by American Muslim advocacy groups and their allies in the media and government to swallow this farrago about how Islam is a peaceful religion that has been hijacked by "extremists," that at very least these advocacy groups would address this worldwide misunderstanding of Islam by the most pious Muslims. For here again, it is the Muslims who are most serious about Islam who are waging jihad, and those that are least devout and literal-minded who are staying home. Al-Timimi trial update, from the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
FAIRFAX, Va. -- He never made it to Afghanistan to fight for the Taliban, but Yong Ki Kwon -- a Northern Virginia engineer who fled the United States nine days after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks -- said it wasn't for lack of effort.Kwon, 29, is a South Korea-born graduate of Virginia Tech who is serving an 11-year prison sentence as a result of his guilty plea last year on federal conspiracy and weapons charges. He has emerged as the prosecution's star witness in the case against Ali Al-Timimi, an American Islamic scholar charged with recruiting soldiers for the Taliban just five days after Sept. 11....
Kwon, one of nine men convicted last year in the so-called "paintball jihad" network, told a chilling tale of the birth of an American jihad.
The holy war was conceived in the suburbs of Washington, D.C., in the dawn of the 21st century and was born at a meeting in his Fairfax, Va. apartment Sept. 16, 2001, when Kwon said he and several companions decided to heed the call of spiritual adviser Al-Timimi and to be trained to join the Taliban.
Four days later, Kwon was on a flight to Karachi, Pakistan.
The call to holy war took Kwon, who became a U.S. citizen in August 2001, to the mountain training camps of Lashkar-e-Taiba -- known as the LET -- a group that the U.S. placed on its terrorist list in December 2001.
Under the guidance of militants who trained holy warriors for battle in Afghanistan, Kwon honed his skills with semi-automatic weapons and learned to fire a grenade launcher.
Kwon, though, said he never was able to join the Taliban. He was simply too late. The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan closed as U.S. forces took control of Afghanistan shortly before Kwon completed his training at the LET camp.
He said his mentors offered him another option: Go back to the United States and gather information for the mujahadeen, or holy warriors....
Dressed in a dark-green prison jumpsuit, the tall, bearded Kwon told jurors how he first heard Al-Timimi speak in 1997 at an Islamic Assembly of North America conference in Chicago.
Born to Christian parents, Kwon converted to Islam in 1997 and quickly found scholar Al-Timimi lecturing regularly near his Northern Virginia home.
Al-Timimi was known in strict Muslim communities across the word for his taped and Internet lectures. Supporters point to well-known lectures calling for peace in the wake of the first World Trade Center attack in 1993.
Al-Timimi also was listed as an advisory board member of Assirat Al-Mustaqueem -- an international Arabic language magazine published in Pittsburgh from 1991 to 2000.
The magazine called for holy war against Christians and Jews. It also lauded the international army that Osama bin Laden assembled for the Taliban in Afghanistan. The magazine once featured an article lauding Shamil Basayev, the Chechen rebel who took credit for last fall's bloody Beslen school massacre in which more than 300 people -- many of them school children -- were slain.
Wait a minute. He called for "peace in the wake of the first World Trade Center attack in 1993" but stayed until 2000 on the advisory board of a magazine that "called for holy war against Christians and Jews" and "lauded the international army that Osama bin Laden assembled for the Taliban in Afghanistan"? Some Islamic apologists and their allies have criticized my use of the word "taqiyya" on this site, pointing out that taqiyya properly refers only to Shi'ites pretending to be Sunnis for fear of persecution. Very well. I won't call it "taqiyya" this time, although I am not going to be intimidated away from using a word that sums up very well the Islamic doctrine of religious deception. That doctrine allows Muslims to lie about their faith when under pressure (cf. Qur'an 16:106 and also 3:28) and when in battle (cf. Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-270 and Sahih Muslim, book 32, no. 6303). Was al-Timimi practicing this deception that when he preached peace after the first WTC bombing? This is at least a question that prosecutors should investigate -- but they probably won't, because political correctness and fear will probably keep them from touching on any questions regarding Islam.
Kwon said he grew to know and respect Al-Timimi as he regularly attended lectures at Dar Al Arqam mosque in Falls Church, Va.Al-Timimi's lectures on such topics as the purification of the soul and the new world order were only one side of Kwon's pursuit of Islam.
The other side played out among Kwon and a small group of Muslim friends on the paintball fields and target ranges ringing Washington. That side focused on jihad -- violent holy war. And that focus turned to an obsession among Kwon and his friends long before Sept. 11, 2001, Kwon testified.
The group, which included two U.S. military veterans and several engineers, gathered regularly, starting in early 2000, to talk about or prepare for jihad.
"Russian Hell" -- a jihad video that featured bloody clips of a Chechen Muslim rebel leader executing a Russian prisoner of war -- was a favorite among the videos that the group exchanged and discussed.
"They (the videos) motivated us. It was like they gave us inspiration," Kwon testified.
Martyrdom, too, was a topic.
"As a Muslim, it's something you aspire to," Kwon said, answering questions from assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg. "We talked about it. I don't know how realistic we were, but we talked about it because it was very noble," Kwon told the jury of nine men and five women before U.S. District Court Judge Leonie M. Brinkema.
Members of the group wanted to be ready to take up arms -- should the need to defend Islam arise, Kwon said -- and they began traveling to shooting ranges for target practice and to paintball fields to execute military maneuvers.
Al-Timimi never was a part of their games, Kwon said, but he and other witnesses said the man they characterized as a respected mentor was aware of them. Indeed, they consulted Al-Timimi when the FBI visited one of the members of their group with questions. Al-Timimi's advice: Be more circumspect about their activities, Kwon and others testified.
Kwon recalled driving Al-Timimi home from the mosque Sept. 11, 2001 after the terrorist attacks. He said Al-Timimi and another scholar argued, with Al-Timimi characterizing the attacks as a punishment of America from God, while his fellow scholar decried the attacks.
That night, as they drove from the mosque, Kwon said Al-Timimi had a request.
"He told me to gather some brothers, to have a contingency plan in case there were mass hostilities toward Muslims in America," Kwon said....
Then, Kwon said, Al-Timimi advised the group that the effort to spread Islam in the United States was over and that the only other options open to them were to repent, leave the U.S. and join the mujahadeen -- the holy warriors preparing to defend Afghanistan against the coming U.S. invasion.
Four days later, Kwon was on the plane to Pakistan, embarking on a jihad that would land him in prison.
"I made the decision to go, but (Al-Timimi) was a big part of my decision to go," Kwon said.
Al-Timimi was, of course, wrong in thinking that "the effort to spread Islam in the United States was over." He didn't realize that even several years after 9/11, American leaders would prate about the religion of "tolerance" and "peace," and that apologists for Islam would compile reading lists for American generals, and that editors of supposedly tough, no-nonsense "conservative" publications would -- without having bothered to study Islam themselves -- refuse to publish some of the most important writers on Islam today (most notably Bat Ye’or), remove advertisements for books under pressure from an American Muslim advocacy group that a U. S. Senator has identified as having ties to terror, and dismiss as attempting to "discredit Muhammad and Islam" those who think that it is reasonable, in discussions of terrorism, to discuss Qur'anic passages and events in the life of Muhammad that terrorists themselves point to as the justification for their actions. No, if al-Timimi had foreseen all that, he would have been quite optimistic indeed.
Posted by Robert at April 11, 2005 8:51 AM
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The magazine called for holy war against Christians and Jews
Interesting how we are never given actual quotes from the source. We are instead told what the source allegedly says.
Very well. I won't call it "taqiyya" this time, although I am not going to be intimidated away from using a word that sums up very well the Islamic doctrine of religious deception.
The Shi'a are a sect in Islam. The word Shi'a literally means sect. They are not representative of the entire body of Muslims nor is their doctrine the widely accepted doctrine of Muslims.
That doctrine allows Muslims to lie about their faith when under pressure (cf. Qur'an 16:106 and also 3:28) and when in battle (cf. Sahih Bukhari, vol. 4, book 52, nos. 268-270 and Sahih Muslim, book 32, no. 6303).
About lying in Islam:
(16) It is of the adab of the high path of Islam to abandon lying, for it is unlawful. Allah Most High curses liars by saying, “May liars be slain” (Qur’an 51:10), in which slain means “cursed” according to the Arabic idiom likening the accursed, who loses every good and happiness, to the slain, who loses life and every blessing. The Qur’anic exegete al-Khazin notes that “May liars be cursed” originally referred to those who sat on the various roads outside Mecca warning people against the words of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) to keep them from becoming Muslim. The verse, however, like other Qur’anic verses, is not limited to the original circumstances in which it was revealed, but applies universally, to the end of time. Those who lie, except in circumstances in which Sacred Law permits it, are cursed by Allah.
(17) It is unlawful to lie, except when making up between two people, or lying to an enemy in war, or to one’s wife. It is also unlawful to praise or blame another with an untruth. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Lying is wrong, except in three things: the lie of a man to his wife to make her content with him; a lie in war, for war is deception; or a lie to settle trouble between people” (Ahmad, 6.459. H). Ibn Jawzi has said, “The criterion for it is that every praiseworthy objective in Sacred Law that cannot be brought about without lying is permissible to lie for if the objective is permissible, and obligatory to lie for if the objective is obligatory.” When lying is the only way to attain one’s right, one may lie about oneself or another, provided it does not harm the other. And it is obligatory to lie to if necessary to protect a Muslim from being murdered. But whenever one can accomplish the objective by words that merely give a misleading impression with actually being false, it is unlawful to tell an outright lie, because it is unnecessary. - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/adab_of_islam.htm
Regarding the original posted article, it is of note that the people mentioned were not training to indiscriminately kill Christians and Jews despite what some on this site might believe. They were training, instead, to defend a Muslim land from attack and occupation.
Posted by: Shukri![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at April 11, 2005 10:17 AM
Shukri:
"...lying to an enemy in war..."
You have proved my point.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
at April 11, 2005 10:21 AM
Reference #1:
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 11, 2005 10:42 AM
Part 2
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/2.html
Part 3
http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/3.html
at April 11, 2005 10:54 AM
"Regarding the original posted article, it is of note that the people mentioned were not training to indiscriminately kill Christians and Jews despite what some on this site might believe. They were training, instead, to defend a Muslim land from attack and occupation."
The land they were going to defend was being used as a base from which to indiscriminately kill "Christians and Jews". Your attempt at making a distinction founders on that massive, unavoidable fact.
More importantly, though -- these were supposedly American citizens. As such, they had a responsibility to defend the US, not to hare off to defend our enemies. They committed treason, as far as I'm concerned, and should be facing the hangman's noose instead of a comfortable stay in prison.
Posted by: Robert Crawford at April 11, 2005 11:06 AM
"...to defend Islam is necessary.." Could someone answer this question? Why does Islam need to be defended? Why isn't the beauty and grandeur of Islam enough to encourage non-Muslims to "revert"? Why do we constantly hear from Muslims that they must vigorously, and sometimes violently, have to "defend Islam" against slander or Islamophobia? Why can't Islam exist without a chip on its shoulder and an "in your face" attitude?
Posted by: epg at April 11, 2005 11:06 AM
Because if muslims actually stopped the nonsense and took a look at their religion and leaders it would all fall apart.
Posted by: Pegcity at April 11, 2005 1:18 PM
Here we see a variety of useful information.
First, the statements made by these people calls into question Muhammed's actual relevance to Islam. All that really seems to matter with these people is the KILLINGS they can perform. It is truly to these people a blessed sacrament--as it was with the Aztecs, Mayans, Babylonians, and all the other societies on earth that were built on human sacrifice. Yes, we are looking at a group of human beings that are practicing human sacrifice and Kwon's testimony virtually phones it in. Muslims try to hide this by elaborate games as to how and when and where it is to be done. But it does not change the fact they DO IT--CONSTANTLY (and rarely for self-defense).
Secondly, we can see that the US government's policy of utilizing mujahideen armies as war proxies has backfired horribly. What the Muslims have done is accrue military skills gotten from their training from the Pentagon and use it to advance the spread of Islamic holy war aross the globe. And our people are suffering as a result and our national security is at risk as never before.
NEWSFLASH FOR Shukri: There were NEVER any 'Muslim lands' until Arabs created armies and attacked non-Muslim lands, slaughtering indiscrimately and genocidally (usually Christians and Jews) to the point where there were so few remaining in them that it became a simple task to steal the territory and label it "muslim." So you can forget about telling us about how innocent of indiscriminate slaughtering of Christians and Jews Muslims are. We can see from this what Islam's 'Holy War' is designed to accomplish. By the way the people you mention WERE indeed motivated to indiscriminately slaughter Christians and Jews--only not at that immediate point in time. That was set for the time when the territory in question was supplied with military reinforcements.
Islam is designed to slaughter human beings indiscriminately...and does. Nothing you can say changes this
Posted by: pythagoras at April 11, 2005 1:21 PM
Islam is the religion of PIRATES,
Qur’an 8:1 “They ask you about the benefits of capturing the spoils of war. Tell them: ‘The benefits belong to Allah and to His Messenger.’”
Ishaq:510 “We ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”
Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Tabari VII:64/Ishaq:307 “The Messenger of Allah gave orders concerning the contents of the camp which the people had collected, and it was all brought together. Among the Muslims, however, there was a difference of opinion concerning it. Those who had collected it said, ‘It is ours. Muhammad promised every man that he could keep the booty he took.’ Those who were fighting said, ‘If it had not been for us, you would not have taken it. We distracted the enemy from you so that you could take what you took.’ Those who were guarding the Prophet for fear the enemy would attack him said, ‘By Allah, you have no better right to it than we have. We wanted to kill the enemy when Allah gave us the opportunity and made them turn their backs, and we wanted to take property when there was no one to protect it; but we were afraid that the Meccans might attack the Prophet. We protected him so you have no better right to it than we have.’ When we quarreled about the booty we became very bad tempered. So Allah removed it from us and handed it over to His Messenger.”
at April 11, 2005 2:02 PM
"...lying to an enemy in war..."You have proved my point.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
No, I have not, Mr. Spencer. Lying to an enemy in war has conditions in Sacred Law. From my understanding, it is applicable only to military commanders and those authorized by such a command to realize a military maneuver or some other such action that is (by Sacred Law) a legal part of war.
It is, however, not applicable to a person who is in the United States, having taken an oath to uphold and obey the law. It is prohibited for such a person to engage in acts that are unlawful in his host country.
Robert Crawford said: The land they were going to defend was being used as a base from which to indiscriminately kill "Christians and Jews".
This was not proved at the time. UBL and Co. had already established a presence before the Taliban even existed and it makes sense that the Taliban could not extradite or try UBL and Co. without being provided with concrete evidence by the accusers that UBL and Co. were the perpetrators of the attack. This was what the Taliban said. "Give us evidence and we'll try him or have a neutral ally try him."
It is noteworthy that no conviction for the 9/11 terrorist attacks has been able to stick.
epg said: Why does Islam need to be defended?
Because Islam is attacked and misrepresented, it needs to be defended.
epg said: Why isn't the beauty and grandeur of Islam enough to encourage non-Muslims to "revert"?
It is. Except when people misrepresent Islam to appear as a world-wide take over conspiracy to kill all non-Muslims and other similarly absurd accusations.
Pythagoras said: First, the statements made by these people calls into question Muhammed's actual relevance to Islam. All that really seems to matter with these people is the KILLINGS they can perform.
1) How do what these people say "call into question Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) relevance to Islam?"
2) What statement in the article would lead you to believe that the group of people were training to kill only for the sake of killing?
Pythagoras said: But it does not change the fact they DO IT--CONSTANTLY (and rarely for self-defense).
It is worth pointing out that the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks are perpetrated by those in lands that are Occupied and/or invaded.
Pythagoras said: There were NEVER any 'Muslim lands' until Arabs created armies and attacked non-Muslim lands, slaughtering indiscrimately and genocidally (usually Christians and Jews) to the point where there were so few remaining in them that it became a simple task to steal the territory and label it "muslim."
Instead of wide generalities, would you please be kind enough to provide me with specific examples?
Islam is designed to slaughter human beings indiscriminately...and does. Nothing you can say changes this
Only because it appears that you have already made up your mind based on preconceived notions.
Posted by: Shukri at April 11, 2005 7:17 PM
People,
"shukri" and all the rest are just plain funny. I am talking rolling on the floor laughing out loud FUNNY!
The poor things can't think their way out of a paper bag; they have no genuine pride of the sort earned through competence, therefore they are extraordianrily easily "humiliated;" they strike out like infants throwing temper tantrums whenever their demands for immediate gratification of their slightest wishes are not granted, and the rest of us tell them "No, you can't (have or do) this; and they cannot adapt to the requirements of reality because, like infants, they are blind to them.
I mean, if that isn't pathetically funny, what is?
Posted by: cubed at April 11, 2005 8:15 PM
"Regarding the original posted article, it is of note that the people mentioned were not training to indiscriminately kill Christians and Jews despite what some on this site might believe. They were training, instead, to defend a Muslim land from attack and occupation."
Reeeeaaaally. That would explain this, I bet, from the same article:
"He said his mentors offered him another option: Go back to the United States and gather information for the mujahadeen, or holy warriors.... "
So, would the muslim country he's training to defend be the Islamic State of Virginiastan? (The name of which, for obvious reasons, causes endless misunderstandings for islamic immigrants and remains a highly-sought after end location to this day.)
About that "not getting the quotes directly from the source" thing, I have to agree with Shukri that it makes me very leery.
Another such story, told secondhand, is about this merchant in Saudi Arabia somewhere, who some people report thought he talked to God. But only fools would fall for secondhand sources - to say nothing of third-, fourth-, and fifth-hand sources.
No?
The second posting is mere nonsense. First, it's ok to lie, period (no "commander" stipulation, I mean, give us all a break here). Then it's only "Cobra Commander" who can lie to G.I. Joe. "Of coursssssse we don't have any RPGs, foolish infffffidel!" Make up your mind.
And in the same vein, first you defend the guy with the posting, then you say it's wrong for him to break the law in his host country. Again - make up your mind. Which is it?
It's not true that no 9/11 conviction has been able to stick. Why, people associated with those responsible for 9/11 have been stuck to tank treads, craters, bloody puddles...there are literally hundreds of bits of these types sticking to all kinds of things. (Apologies for the humour...the American oeuvre gripped me and wrestled me to the ground. ;) )
"Because Islam is attacked and misrepresented, it needs to be defended"? So Yong Ki Kwon wasn't trying to help terrorists kill Americans, he was 'defending islam' from the 'misconception' that many muslims are 'terrorists' by collecting information for muslim terrorists to kill people. Natch. Gotcha. Makes sense.
It certainly seems islam needs to protect itself from misconception quite a bit. ("Is that an 'appel to unqualified authority' I hear? You infidel! Let me find my podium and laser-pointer and you will taste the burning scourge of my rebuttal for a thousand years!")
I'd love to believe Shurki about the 'beauty' (and what beauty? What art? Calligraphic writing? My kid can do that and he's four) of islam, but unfortunately it's always backed up with the stick of violence. Even as a secularist, I find much more beauty in church bells, the mysticism of synagogues, and statues of the saints. Islam can hardly claim to corner the market on beauty.
"It is worth pointing out that the overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks are perpetrated by those in lands that are Occupied and/or invaded." Interesting. This would explain, then the attack in 9/11. Americans had invaded New York island, which, as any even mediocre student of history knows, was found first by time-travelling muslim sailors who founded the North American Native cultures. Yep. You heard it here first.
Since you demand specifics instead of 'wide generalities' regarding muslim slaughter of innocent populations of muslims and Christians, how about: North Africa, Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Anatolia, the Balkans, India and Spain. Would those be sufficiently specific for you?
Well, of course not. You've already made up your mind through preconceived notions of islamic tolerance that you've been saturated with. I think for the real story, you might ask those who were the victims of islamic intolerance, rather than those who benefitted from it. But that's just me.
Geoff
BTW: Islam lets me lie to my wife if it's the only way to 'get my rights'? Sweet! More beer on Saturdays for me!
"No, honey, I'm not at a bar. What's all that noise? Er...It's a protest rally. Yeah, that's the ticket. And...one of the protesters is coming out...apparently her name is 'Candy'. Whoops, looks like she's taking two-dollar donations, I, ah, have to run, honey."
Woo hoo...aw, rats. Maybe not. =)
Posted by: Geoff at April 11, 2005 8:47 PM
"shukri" and all the rest are just plain funny. I am talking rolling on the floor laughing out loud FUNNY! Posted by Cubed.
Me too, their ignorance is almost unbearable! Shukri is apparently well versed in Islamic revisionist history. Duh, if we go back to the beginning of Islam and retrace the path of the savage, butcher armies of the beast muhammad, THERE WERE NO ISLAMIC COUNTRIES!!! How hard is that to figure out?! Every country on earth, including Arabia, was non-Islamic until they were pillaged, plundered, and conquered by FORCE, millions of innocent people massacred in heinous genocides by the barbarian acolytes of the great Islamic prophet.
Muslims are the most intransigent, unthinking morons on the planet, and they want to impose their idiocy on all of us?! God help those poor, brainwashed zombies, and God help us find a way to separate ourselves from them.
Posted by: Susanp at April 12, 2005 1:41 AM
"shukri" and all the rest are just plain funny. I am talking rolling on the floor laughing out loud FUNNY! Posted by Cubed.
Me too, their ignorance is almost unbearable! Shukri is apparently well versed in Islamic revisionist history. Duh, if we go back to the beginning of Islam and retrace the path of the savage, butcher armies of the beast muhammad, THERE WERE NO ISLAMIC COUNTRIES!!! How hard is that to figure out?! Every country on earth, including Arabia, was non-Islamic until they were pillaged, plundered, and conquered by FORCE, millions of innocent people massacred in heinous genocides by the barbarian acolytes of the great Islamic prophet.
Muslims are the most intransigent, unthinking morons on the planet, and they want to impose their idiocy on all of us?! God help those poor, brainwashed zombies, and God help us find a way to separate ourselves from them.
Posted by: Susanp at April 12, 2005 1:42 AM
Shukri-
My commander has told me to lie to you.
You're brilliant.
Posted by: BigSleep at April 12, 2005 3:13 AM
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