"It's hard times for people of Middle Eastern descent," said his lawyer, Tim Evans.

Yes, Mr. Evans, especially when they're dirtbag criminals.

Posted by: DCWatson at April 14, 2005 8:40 AM

- "It's hard times for people of Middle Eastern descent," said his lawyer, Tim Evans -

Hmm, let me see, in lawyer speak does he mean: "It's hard times for supporters of terrorism" ?

Notice the failure to mention Islam or Muslums. Guess that's too far to the right. But you can bet your sweet bippy if it had been Jews or Christians their church or some other reference to their religion would have been in the article.

And why wasn't his brother noted as being with CAIR? But that would be guilt by association, and not fair and balanced.

Sorry, but recently nothing seems to please me when it comes to Islam. Maybe I should recline on a couch and ramble with someone who will take notes.

Posted by: BillR at April 14, 2005 9:04 AM

"It's hard times for people of Middle Eastern descent," said his lawyer, Tim Evans.

They should hang that lawyer while they are at it.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 14, 2005 9:29 AM

FOX :BREAKING NEWS-

TEXAN, BRITON, BULGARIAN INDICTED IN OIL-FOR-FOOD SCANDAL

Posted by: Mackie at April 14, 2005 9:41 AM

"You know, the group that controls what Americans must say and not say about Islam."

It is not just CAIR. No doubt there are those, even possibly connected to the White House, who have told various people at conservative magazines to cool it on Islam -- that is, do not publish Bat Ye'or, do not give prominent coverage to defectors from Islam such as Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina, do keep stressing the "good" Muslims (whether Irshad Manji, who has just about pushed those heavy gates of ijtihad wide open, or "Muslim intellectuals" bravely fighting the good fight to "reform" Islam and bring democracy, without quite telling us how they are doing it, or that "vast majority" of peaceful Muslims (who's been doing the counting?). There is Lowry, who appears to be in no hurry to publish certain people, and believes that discussion of Muhammad -- Muhammad as depicted in the Sira, not as made up by anyone -- is merely an attempt to "discredit" him. Presumably discussion of Auschwitz "discredits" the Nazis; discussion of Magadan "discredits" Stalin. And discussion of the Banu Qurayza or the Khaybar Oasis, or Asma bint Marwan, or Aisha, must perforce "discredit" Muhammad. That's not what Muslims think. Similarly, a House Muslim with literary pretensions tries to keep things clean -- i.e., praise to Sistani and Sufis, and keep the focus only on those bad old Wahhabis -- at My Weekly Standard.

Some may think that if your heart is in the right place, if you supported the invasion of Iraq, your mind must also, necessarily, be in that same right place. And you should not be cross-questioned, not be subject to the same critical scrutiny, if your coverage of Islam is inhibited or skewed or simply the Higher Apologetics.

Nonsense.

Posted by: Hugh at April 14, 2005 9:42 AM

Headline:

Found Guilty of Supporting Jihad Terror

I am not moved if [the money] was used to fund day-care centers.

Posted by: Shukri at April 14, 2005 10:18 AM

It's been 'hard times for people of Middle Eastern descent' since a guy named Mohammad started hearing voices.

And carrying a sword.

MEANWHILE-

From the lawyer, the usual:

"P.C. fog."

(Newpapers and broadcasts should have to add that little note after all such comments used to obfuscate the real issue. Maybe a little grey cloud on t.v. as its icon?)

Posted by: BigSleep at April 14, 2005 10:19 AM

shukri-

Hamas is no longer a terrorist organization?

Stalin and Hitler and Mao also built schools and hospitals. (Nazi 'daycare' was a model of efficiency). They wanted their troops healthy for the battle, and throughly indoctrinated with the party lines.

Hamas 'daycare' that feeds Jew and infidel hatred, along with the Swiss-donated milk powder, is hardly 'innocent' humanitarianism by the jihadis. It is the old Maoist trick of shaping them in the cradle to control their bent in adulthood.

In plain words:

poison them young and they'll be yours in years to come.

Posted by: BigSleep at April 14, 2005 10:26 AM

CAIR has been allegedly also funding some pro terrorists groups disguised as human rights groups in US!

Note their presense in Coalition Against Genocide. An Asian Indian activists group with dubious intentions.

http://www.coalitionagainstgenocide.org/about.php

Posted by: hammer_sickel at April 14, 2005 10:49 AM

Shukri:

You're probably right about the headline, but Robert's right on in his ending comment.

Are 'fur us or 'agin us?

Posted by: BillR at April 14, 2005 10:52 AM

BillR:

Shukri is pro-jihad, pro-shariah, pro-islamic-world domination.

Posted by: CGW at April 14, 2005 10:57 AM

Shukri:

I have no information that the money was actually used to fund day care centers. My comment was a reductio ad absurdum. (Look it up.)

Any money that goes to The Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) goes to fund a bloody organization that has gloried in its massacres of innocents.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 14, 2005 11:06 AM

Shukri,

Your post is a bit misleading isn't it:

Posted by: Shukri
Headline:
Found Guilty of Supporting Jihad Terror
Body:
I am not moved if [the money] was used to fund day-care centers.
The headline is a tad misleading, don't you think, Mr.Spencer? But I really shouldn't have expected anything else---my bad.
Posted by: Shukri

Posted by: Report at April 14, 2005 11:18 AM

Big sleep is right...Mohammad, armed and unstable. If Mohammad were alive today, no one in their right mind would buy a used car from him. CAIR...is doing a nose dive into an empty pool. To bad, so sad, bye bye...

Posted by: duh_swami at April 14, 2005 11:23 AM

Simply put?

Mat 12:33 The tree is known by his fruit.

Posted by: Beth at April 14, 2005 11:28 AM

oh yeah day care centers, you just keep buying that crap.

oh yeah Hamas loves the kiddies, teach them to hate in there so called day cares, then at the ripe old age of 15 its of to martyrdom.

Posted by: Pegcity at April 14, 2005 11:49 AM

Shukri, we can understand your political perceptions and religious extremism, but if you're trying to convince us you can't read, or don't understand ironic underscoring, you're going to have to try a little harder.

Then again, we expect a little more from islam generally than the cold assurance that rejection of sharia "is not allowed", irrespective of the wants of the population [Shukri] - this would include, of course, dhimmitude for other religions or maybe even the traditional choice of:.

Then, too, we notice - as everyone who reads this site notices - that you never, ever comment on the horrors inflicted by islam on other religions worldwide, or on the legitimacy of the texts used for these horrors. It's as though you can't accept them, or that your religious outlook can't tolerate the fact that they come from islam; as though, somehow, it's the fault of those religions that these injustices are enacted against them. It's not as if you don't see Robert's postings. So what have you to say about them? Anything at all?

Maybe WE expect too much. Maybe that's OUR bad.

Idiot.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 14, 2005 12:16 PM

Shukri is pro-jihad, pro-shariah, pro-islamic-world domination.

Posted by: CGW at April 14, 2005 10:57 AM

Well, it can't be said any more clearly and succinctly than that!

So, everybody, maybe this is a good time to bring up a fun resource. Go to Co-Jet.org, and click "pamphlets." Then click "Rick's no way Gif" and "Susan's No dhimmitude" pdf.

What you'll see is on Rick's, the nullification symbol (red) over the three words (black) "sharia," "dhimmitude," and "jihad."

On Susan's, you see the same, only with one word, "Dhimmitude."

You can print them off, and make them any size you want. I enlarged mine just a bit, cut them to size, and taped them to the inside rear window of my car.

Posted by: cubed at April 14, 2005 12:32 PM

Money being used for Daycare Centers?

Nonsense....We see all the three year olds in the Middle East already know how to shoot a gun. We also see three year olds with bomb belts strapped to them.

Daycare hell. No true loving parent would ever let their baby hold a firearm. But then again, these are the Palestinians we're talking about.

Common sense waved bye-bye to them centuries ago. Elashi is a terrorist funder, and although I looked, I couldn't find coverage of Elashi's conviction anywhere on the CAIR website.

Surprise Surprise

Posted by: DCWatson at April 14, 2005 12:32 PM

"""But then again, these are the Palestinians we're talking about.

Common sense waved bye-bye to them centuries ago"""

The children there need to be rescued - from the lie that Palestine has the right to take the place of Israel - at all costs - even their own lives.

They are taught these things from the cradle.

It is the leaders of this world --- the so called 'Christian' leaders, the U.N. - the presidents and kings -- the MANY self-professing 'Rights' groups who are responsible for such a fire that is raging out of control.

Which one of them would be willing to 'make the altimate sacrifice' - if they truly believed it was what God required of them?

The very least they could do - is to start speaking the Truth!

The Koran NEVER mentions the name Palestine. So upon what Spiriual Authority - does all of Islam demand the destruction of Israel?

Their god FORGOT to mention Palestine - OBVIOUSLY - because Palestine is more important to all of Islam than it is to anyone else.

But WOE unto all of the leaders of this world - who have the power to point out the Truth - because lives are at stake - every day!

But what saith the Holy Scriptures?

Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, WHOLE Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone

IN HIS APPOINTED TIMES.

Where are the mouths of the self-professing 'Christian' leaders? who sure do meddle in everything else?

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Woe unto them! They have not carried out that command - from the Lord that they say they represent.

If they were -- there would be no CAIR! No one would support them

And this world would think twice about establishing Palestine - a name that has absolutely NO Spiritual support - none whatsoever.

Mar 13:14 When ye shall see the abomination of DESOLATION {{{without life - "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - Palestine denies the Son] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT

Mat 24:21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The name Israel is His heritage - God [not man] gave that name.

If you are a true Christian - brace yourselves.

This world is about to make the biggest mistake it has ever made.

CAIR may not care about appearing evil.

But do they care about looking like fools?

With the Truth told people - CAIR won't be the only ones looking like fools

especially when visualizing the sweeping of body parts off some street or blown up bus - all in the name of Palestine.

So...

Zec 8:16 These are the things that ye shall do; Speak ye every man the truth to his neighbour; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates.

Zep 2:3 It may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger

Jer 10:10 The LORD is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting King:

at His wrath the earth shall tremble,

and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation.

He condemned Palestine - A LONG time ago

Posted by: Beth at April 14, 2005 1:11 PM

It's Shukri again. To repeat my post yesterday for those who missed it,this is the person who earlier told me, on the subject of the rape of the child Aisha,

"As for Ayesha's marriage. It's not our problem but your problem because you are viewing it through the rose colored glasses of modern Western culture."

So what sort of man does not have a problem with the paedophilic abuse of a child? Do I have to spell it out? This creature is beyond consideration.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 14, 2005 2:19 PM

Don't fight Shukri. Just reserve for the West the same special rights Muslims reserve for themselves in so-called "Muslim land". Islam is eternally expansionist, bigoted, deceptive, theocratic, and wholly vulnerable to their so-called principles being turned against them.

All I ask is the followers of Mohamhead be shipped to the Arabian Peninsula, where they belong.

Posted by: Beagle at April 14, 2005 2:39 PM

"""So what sort of man does not have a problem with the paedophilic abuse of a child? Do I have to spell it out? This creature is beyond consideration"""

Could not agree with you more Granny Weatherwax!

But - in order to make a strong point - one that could begin to save lives - it's a well known argument that keeps swaying from the powerful facts that will defeat the allah of the Koran.

Please bear with me [as I am the mother of 2 young ones myself - which is one thing that is driving me in this battle - To protect their future]

What will it matter? that Muhammad had so many wives [many of them against their will] - who also took child females just because it was in his power to do so? It still doesn't make it right - no matter what anyone says.

But what will all of that matter - if Muhammad's allah can be proven to be a fake and a phony?

The best place to begin - is with the fact that he never mentioned Palestine - AND HE SHOULD HAVE!!! No?

You see - CAIR and all who agree with them - have nothing to go on. ESPECIALLY since they stand behind 'religion' - in this case - Islam.

What Muhammad did with some 9 year girl hundreds of centries ago - has not the importance of what PRESENT DAY Palestinians are doing in the name of Palestine - carrying out a great slaughter! and with no Spiritual Authority to justify such an exceedingly wicked deed.

Hopefully - more and more people will start to ask CAIR that all important QUESTION:

Upon what Spiritual Authority do you demand the destruction Israel?????????????? -

a name that came from God - not man

Ask them! Everyone

Posted by: Beth at April 14, 2005 2:58 PM

Hamas 'daycare' that feeds Jew and infidel hatred

Bigsleep, please read...

Are 'fur us or 'agin us?

BillR, I prefer not to think in the same terms as the extremists, who portray the world as black and white.

Shukri is pro-jihad, pro-shariah, pro-islamic-world domination.

CGW, I support the right of oppressed Muslims to defend themselves and to implement Sacred Law in their countries in order to ensure a safe and secure society. I also support a world that is moral, compassionate and just. Translate that however you will.

I have no information that the money was actually used to fund day care centers. My comment was a reductio ad absurdum.

Essentially, Mr. Spencer, you do not know what the money was used for; it could after all, have been a day care center. You instead chose to present a misleading picture. i.e: Claiming that someone with CAIR is guilty of "Jihad Terror" despite the fact that there is no evidence that the money went to support acts of "terrorism".

Shukri,

Your post is a bit misleading isn't it:

Report, how so?

If Mohammad were alive today, no one in their right mind would buy a used car from him.

duh_swami, They wouldn't have to. He, peace be upon him, would probably give it away free, considering the kindness and generosity that he was famous for, peace and blessings of God be upon him.

you never, ever comment on the horrors inflicted by islam on other religions worldwide, or on the legitimacy of the texts used for these horrors.

Geoff, I have already commented that the "proofs" for the justification of terrorism taken from Islamic texts are out of context. It is not a matter of those texts being legitimate or illegitimate. It is to do with quotes from the text being taken out of context.

Idiot.

I hope that we can have a civilized debate without resorting to name calling and other such unprofessional approaches.

this is the person who earlier told me, on the subject of the rape of the child Aisha,

Granny Weatherwax, I'm sorry but I do believe that you need to verify your facts.

So what sort of man does not have a problem with the paedophilic abuse of a child? Do I have to spell it out? This creature is beyond consideration.

If you would only read the source that I gave you.

Don't fight Shukri

A good suggestion to all, Beagle. Instead, try reasoning in a rational manner without allowing prejudice or name-calling to interfere. I am not some irrational lunatic and I am perfectly capable of changing my opinions when it is proven that they are wrong.

does all of Islam demand the destruction of Israel?

Islam does not demand the destruction of Israel, Beth. Islam demands that justice be done. If the Right of Return, alone, were to be implemented, Israel as a viable state would almost cease to exist. This is because Israel is nothing more than the transplant of tens of thousands of European Jews (and later, Jews from other continents) who were settled into Palestine by forcibly expelling the native population into Cantons(This should sound familiar to Americans who have read their own history).

had so many wives [many of them against their will]

Sources, Beth? That is one of the problems with this site. Long on claims and allegations, short on clear proofs and evidence.

Posted by: Shukri at April 14, 2005 6:17 PM

Aw, shucks, Shukri, it's an elementary principle: if you run a day-care center and a murder squad, and I give you money for your day-care center, I have freed up other funds for the use of your murder squad. Hence I would be complicit in its activities.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 14, 2005 6:26 PM

Shukri-

I've read the Koran and Hadiths.

Mohammad was a violent, hate-filled, resentful, self-excusing, manipulative, deceptive, blood-thirsty, intolerant, and weirdly FIXATED ON FONDLING SLAVE GIRLS AND WORRYING ABOUT MENSTRUAL PROBLEMS, -and as natively ignorant and uncharitable a being as has even gotten two fools to follow him over a cliff.

Peddle you "peaceful" pabulum to those who are illiterate, gullible or self-loathing.

There are plenty.

I could name one.

Posted by: BigSleep at April 14, 2005 6:47 PM

I'll buy him a tent. Anyone else?

Posted by: Beagle at April 14, 2005 6:49 PM

P.S. Shukri-

Thanks for the Hamas Apologetics link.

It reads like a cross between a Monty Python routine, neo-Nazi 'special pleading', mock-Augustinian scholastics from the medieval period, and a parody of a Platonic dialogue ("Gorgias" comes to mind) wherein the 'answer' is known before the ''questions are posed.

With all of the intellectual honesty of the old lawyer's double-bind:

"Have you stopped beating your wife?"

The first pseudo-"question" says it all:

'Why do the zionists kill innocent people?'

My response would be:

"Why do Muslims kill the truth?"

And there actually IS an answer:

For a tactical advantage on their way toward military superiority as they further their quest for a global tyranny based on their own anti-Bill of Rights/ anti-Declaration of Human Rights system of law called Sharia.

The real puzzling question Hamas would love to ask is:

"Why don't the Jews roll over and die?'

Masada is one answer.

Hitler, another.

Posted by: BigSleep at April 14, 2005 6:59 PM

Shukri, your grasp of logic is pitiful, and indeed I pity it. I pity more, however, people who have to read it.

If violent passages occur in the Bible or the Torah, you hold them up. 'Doesn't the Bible/Torah order violence?' you cry. Yet no one hears you; no one interprets them in a violent manner.

If violent passages occur in the QURAN, on other hand, you hold up the Bible and cry: 'Doesn't the Bible/Torah order violence?' But, of course, people are following the Quran and the Hadiths to a tee: 'cut the necks of the unbeliever', 'whoever changes his religion from islam, kill him', 'islam can do no wrong' (the essential message of Q 2: 256 once you actually spend some time looking at it), 'make war on the unbelievers until they convert or die or pay punitive taxes'.

You are not capable of changing your opinions when it is illustrated time and again that you are wrong. You are not capable of logical thought. In the major, what you are capable of is the eternal demand for 'better sources' (better than the Quran, better than the Hadiths, better than common usage) in your constant quest to do as the Quran commands: show no wrong, admit no fault, let no unbeliever alone. This, in essence, is the nature of your religious existence.

Or have you forgotten your comments on the forcible imposition of sharia? Regrets to tell you, but you are exactly the same as any radical - or else, your entire religion is. Or perhaps, you could rib two brain cells together for a change, and explain how you ARE, in fact, not a radical, and would in fact change your opinion when presented with the facts? Because so far, you offer nothing.

How, for example, is your sick 'source' going to exonerate your paedophilic prophet? What possible 'evidence' does it bring to bear? I read it and there are three lines of argument:

i) tu tuoque (in Shukrispeak: "Well, the evil Europeans and filthy Jews married that young too" Wrong, they didn't - 13 is not 6 and you know it.

ii) "why, isn't islam a great guidepost?" Well, no. Not if it (and the great islamic leader of Iran, and Shukki, apparently) promote paedophilia, no.

iii) "it's ok, kids experience major physiological changes around then coinciding with puberty, which can occur as early as 8 or 9". A disgusting and sick argument, which I won't deign to comment on, save that the mad Mullah of Iran apparently feels the same about child abuse as Mohammed and Shukki do. ("Curious about islam? Sign your kids up for islamic day camp! Be sure the 8 and 9-year olds cover up though, and tell them to bring birth control" - right, Shukki?)

and iv) "The dirty Christians are so mean to our prophet! They always repeat stories to make him look bad." Which, in itself, is not an argument. Don't let the fact that people are becoming aware of these stories make you feel bad, beyotch. We got them from islam. In fact, that was one of the reasons a friend of mine converted to Roman Catholicism: she said (quote) "Well, Jesus didn't molest anyone" (end quote). Don't be too upset though: Westerners are mean to lots of sick criminals. Don't take it personally, that your perfect man was a paedophile. Life sucks! (And apparently, so does Mohammed!)

Degenerate.

Rob, ban the troll. It contributes nothing; has nothing really to contribute.

Geoff

PS: Shukri, I own ya, beyotch! =)

Posted by: Geoff at April 14, 2005 7:07 PM

Robert: good point.

Shukki: response?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 14, 2005 7:08 PM

Let's not forget this about Ghassan Elashi:

CAIR was established on seed money provided by the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLFRD). The HLFRD was founded by HAMAS leader and SDGT Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook and Ghassan Elashi, who was a founding member of both the IAP and the Texas chapter of CAIR (Elashi is also related by marriage to Marzook). President Bush designated the HLFRD as an SDGT under EO 13224 and froze its assets in December 2001 for collecting money he said was ³used to support the HAMAS terror organization². Former Treasury Secretary Paul O¹Neill also stated at that time ³The Holy Land Foundation masquerades as a charity, while its primary purpose is to fund HAMAS.² In July 2004, the US Justice Department handed down a 42-count indictment against the HLFRD for allegedly providing more than $12.4 million to individuals and organizations linked to HAMAS between 1995 and 2001. The HLFRD was also charged with failing to report $21 million it raised to the IRS since its incorporation in 1992.

Then there's this:

Future CAIR leadership was present at the ³1993 Philadelphia meeting,² which FBI documents describe as ³a meeting in the United States among senior leaders of HAMAS, HLFRD and IAP.² According to FBI documents, the meeting was attended by future CAIR board chairman Omar Yahya Ahmed and HLFRD co-founder, chairman and executive director Ghassan Elashi, who was also a future founding board member of the Texas chapter of CAIR. According to an FBI action memorandum analyzing wiretaps of the meeting: ³The overall goal of the meeting was to develop a strategy to defeat the Israeli/Palestinian peace accord, and to continue and improve their [HAMAS] fund-raising and political activities in the United States... The participants decided that for fund-raising purposes, the United States theater was very valuable to them. They stated they could not afford to lose it. In the United States, they could raise funds, propagate their political goals, affect public opinion and influence decision-making of the U.S. Government. It was mentioned that the United States provided them with a secure, legal base from which to operate. The democratic environment in the United States allowed them to perform activities that are extremely important to their cause. In discussing financial matters the participants stated a belief that continuation of the Holy War was inevitable. It was decided that most or almost all of the funds collected in the future should be directed to enhance the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) and to weaken the selfrule government. Holy War efforts should be supported by increasing spending on the injured, the prisoners and their families, and the martyrs and their families.²

Hats off to the investigators and prosecutors in this case. Well done!

Posted by: Mike at April 14, 2005 7:08 PM

Sorry about the quotation marks showing up as 2's and 3's.

The Elashi verdict may be part of an ever tightening noose around CAIR's neck. The HLFRD is getting its day in court soon, and if it, too, is found guilty, things might start getting a little warm underneath a few butts over at Taqiyya Central.

Posted by: Mike at April 14, 2005 7:18 PM

If Mohammad were alive today, no one in their right mind would buy a used car from him.

duh_swami, They wouldn't have to. He, peace be upon him, would probably give it away free, considering the kindness and generosity that he was famous for, peace and blessings of God be upon him.

You mean after he and his cowardly crew ganged up on and killed the rightful infidel or apostate owner. With strings attached he would hand the keys over to somebody with a 9 year old sister or daughter.

Posted by: Cross at April 14, 2005 7:33 PM

Shukri wrote:

That is one of the problems with this site. Long on claims and allegations, short on clear proofs and evidence.

----------

Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

How many Islamists still want to persist in the notion that the West is still blind and so easily beguiled by lies and half-truths?

The 70's are long behind us, my friend. Welcome to an enlightened generation of Kuffar.

Posted by: Foehammer at April 14, 2005 7:49 PM

CAIR tells us "what we can say and not say about Islam", even when it's the truth, and "demands respect". Gee, these Muslims spend a lot of time demanding this and demanding that while they undermine freedom of speech, proving why Islam is not compatible with the U.S. Constitution.

Posted by: epg at April 14, 2005 8:49 PM

America is our picnic, and CAIR is the fly. Keep that pressure on, everyone. It's a stranglehold.

Sushi, or whatever your name is, please don't make the mistake of thinking that you're going to dominate this forum with your predictably stale arguments.

If you really want to be proud of your Islamic brothers, check this out.

Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology

http://www.co-jet.org/

Mohammed would be so proud.

Posted by: DCWatson at April 14, 2005 9:53 PM

DC, don't deliberately misconstrue his name to be mean.

His name is Shurki.

Geoff

"Now With 33% More Irony"

Posted by: Geoff at April 14, 2005 9:59 PM

and what do they teach at the Hamas day-care centres?

Hamas Big Bird: Hello children. Today and I will brainwash you so you can grow up big and evil.
OK...repeat after me...A is for Allah, B is for Bomb, C is for cyanide, D is for death....now you know my Hamas ABC won't you wage evil Jihad with me.

Posted by: obl r us at April 14, 2005 10:37 PM

Uncork the champagne, everybody!

One down, 14 million more to go!

Posted by: pythagoras at April 14, 2005 11:06 PM

Dear Shukri:

I have a friend who was born and raised in Israel. Palestine to be exact. She is a Jew. Her family never left the territory Israel. Not in over 1000 years. She claims to be the first in her clan to leave. She has NO European blood in her.

Which makes hash of your statements about Israel.

oh and by the way...

Your Palestinian protagonist friends are there not because of any historical connections to palestine as they insist but courtesy of Islamic military invasions into Israel circa the late 7th century; the Jews were unable to exert enough military force to oust them from their territory, so Muslims remain in Israel to this day.

The correct term for an inhabitant of Palestine is a Philistine, and not a Palestinian as the ignorant Islamic population believes. However, as an ethnicity the Philistines vanished prior to 600 BC...

The Jews are still having trouble rooting the Muslim invaders out, just as the Russians today are experiencing difficulties rooting Muslim invaders out of the Caucasian state of Chehnya. There is no real difference between Chechnya OR Israel or southern Sudan or any number of Islamic-instigated war zones. Islam invades a territory under false pretenses (usually claiming that the inhabitants of the territory are 'occupying' holy Muslim territory and must be forced out with military action aka Islamic holy war).

Posted by: pythagoras at April 14, 2005 11:22 PM

Shifty posted
"Granny Weatherwax, I'm sorry but I do believe that you need to verify your facts.

So what sort of man does not have a problem with the paedophilic abuse of a child? Do I have to spell it out? This creature is beyond consideration.
If you would only read the source that I gave you."

******

You know full well that I read your "source" It is a piece by one AbdurRahman R. Squires from the site moslemanswers.org. I base my assertation that as a supporter of paedophilia you are beyond troll on such gems as :-

1) "it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari and three ahadith in Saheeh Muslim which clearly state that 'Aishah was "nine years old" at the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet"
2) "As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah.... was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come"

My facts are verified from your very site. I need say no more, you and your ilk are condemned by your own words, and, unfortunately for the children under your control, deeds.
To call you a troll is an insult to Scandinavian folklore. We know what you are. But please continue to post your support of paedophilia as mandated by your prophet, the more proof we have of Islamic predelictions the better.
The truth is out there.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at April 15, 2005 3:19 AM

Don't may-uss with tay-ux-uzz!

Posted by: Kepha at April 15, 2005 10:10 AM

Shukri....you responded....

had so many wives [many of them against their will]
Sources, Beth? That is one of the problems with this site. Long on claims and allegations, short on clear proofs and evidence.

Shukri... I was only repeating the overworked arguments of many who have taken the time to research the subject.

You missed the point that I made.

I don't believe such an argument is important.

It serves no purpose for these present times.

Shukri....you also responded....

Islam does not demand the destruction of Israel, Beth. Islam demands that justice be done. If the Right of Return, alone, were to be implemented, Israel as a viable state would almost cease to exist. This is because Israel is nothing more than the transplant of tens of thousands of European Jews (and later, Jews from other continents) who were settled into Palestine by forcibly expelling the native population into Cantons(This should sound familiar to Americans who have read their own history).

Should the right of return be granted ALL peoples? ....or just the Palestinians?

Jos 10:1 Now it came to pass, when Adonizedek king of Jerusalem had heard how Joshua had taken Ai, and had utterly destroyed it; as he had done to Jericho and her king, so he had done to Ai and her king; and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel, and were among them

Which Jerusalem is the Bible referring to here Shukri? The one on earth? or the one in heaven?

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem

'''''which is above'''''

is free, which is the mother of us all.

You see - the God of the Bible says He speaks to BOTH the heavens AND the earth....the visible AND the invisible.

It's ALL about the names Shukri. at least with the God of the Bible it is.

He says Israel is His heritage. He is the One Who gave that name.....not man.

There are NO nationalities with the True Lord.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is ''''rich unto ALL''' that call upon Him.

So what are we left with Shukri?

That is why I ask you....

Apon what Spiritual Authority does Islam demand that Palestine be established?

The Koran never mentions it. It mentions the name Israel....Mecca and Medina....BUT - NOT the name Palestine.

There is no HOly One of Palestine. Isn't that important to you Shukri?

It should be.

Posted by: Beth at April 15, 2005 11:55 AM

Shukri:

Just one point I wanted to address, regardign Israel. You seem to think the Palestinain Arabs have a more legitimate right to the land of Israel than the Jews. This is not the case. Historically, Islam always was a religion of conquest, it was spread by conquest and is maintained by force and terror. The victims of Islamic conquest have often had to wage long and hard wars to regain their rightful territory. For example, Spain, Greece, Hungary, parts of Austria, Bulgaria and Serbia were all part of the Ottoman Empire or other Islamic empires, until they were able to regain their freedom. What has happened in Israel was the same. Just as the people of Spain, Greece and all the rest had the right to expel their Islamic oppressors, so Israel has the same right. Eventually, the attempts by Muslims to conquer America and Europe will also have to be defeated in the same way.

Posted by: BattleofthePyramids at April 15, 2005 1:10 PM

I’ve never posted here before, so sorry if I’m saying anything that’s already been said…

Granny Weatherwax, Geoff, and Beth: About the whole “Muhammad was a pedophile” thing… Child marriage was considered completely acceptable in that time and place, because it wasn’t so much about sex, but more about politics, prosperity, and family dynamics. Check your history, and you’ll even find the occasional European monarch with a child bride because it made a mutually beneficial alliance. In fact, rather than being some horrible atrocity committed only by one man in history, it has been and is still practiced by millions of families all over the world today (and, just to bring this up, no they aren’t all Muslim). Many families in developing countries marry off their daughters because they are too poor to care for all their children and it is seen as being in the best interest of the girl. Is this pedophilia? No. It certainly is sad (and needs to be changed) because it tends to perpetuate social problems and is hardly fair to the kids, but you can’t blame someone for being poor, or uneducated about the emotional and physical dangers associated with early sexual activity, or for living in a society that condones child marriage. And you can’t blame Muhammad for following an accepted social norm anymore than you can blame people for doing 'blood letting' on their relatives back when that was thought to cure illness. In every account I’ve read, his treatment of Aisha was commendable and she grew up to thrive in her situation.

BigSleep, obl r us, and Pegcity: the thing about what Hamas would do with money for a daycare… the whole argument is definitely sorta silly, but I feel compelled to point out that they wouldn’t HAVE to teach the kids in their daycare to hate Israel; when your parents’ livelihoods are destroyed and their freedom is restricted by the Israeli government and your friends or relatives are senselessly killed in the street by missiles, no one has to lecture you on who the ‘bad guys’ are.

Cheers (now that I’ve probably managed to make everyone mad…)

Posted by: wildhorses at April 15, 2005 6:30 PM

wildhorses,

you said...

when your parents’ livelihoods are destroyed and their freedom is restricted by the Israeli government and your friends or relatives are senselessly killed in the street by missiles, no one has to lecture you on who the ‘bad guys’ are

CAIR is Islam.

CAIR supports the Hamas.

Hamas is Islam.

This is Islam....

004.101 When ye travel through the earth , there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

004.092 Never should a believer kill a believer [But the 'unbelievers' - they are commanded to slay. That includes ALL who believe in the Son of God} 009.030 ]

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

wildhorses?

maybe you need to open your eyes - so that you can see who the real instigator is here!

It is 'allah'

And he forgot to mention Palestine.

he mentions the name Israel - but not the name Palestine.

So, Upon what Spiritual Authority do the Hamas provoke with bloody attacks - in the name Palestine?

There is not one single Muslim - who has offered a resonable answer - yet

And not one single Muslim - you can deny allah's words. They are exceedingly wicked!

And they are the very core of what is happening in Israel today

As long as you defend incitement to commit mass murder against the 'unbelievers' - a CLEAR VIOLATION of international laws - there can be no reasoning with you.

You have no justifiable complaint! Not as long as you keep defending the real instigating perpetrator

who loves those who slaughter for his cause

a conceited one

to have everyone bowing to him

Posted by: Beth at April 16, 2005 11:10 AM

Universally, muslims declare muhammad to be the "perfect", the "ideal" man, whose behavior is to be emulated "for all time, and in all places". Hence the lowering of the marriageable age of girls to nine in Iran after Khomeinei took power - to follow the "prophet's" example.

And why we will continue to label it pedophilia. On this issue, islam is incapable of "catching up" to the modern, enlightened world.

Posted by: CGW at April 16, 2005 12:43 PM

CGW,
According to my reading, the marriageable age for girls in Iran was changed from 9 up to 13 in 2002. While I don’t think that is much better, it certainly seems to show some sign of “catching up with the modern world" as you put it, and is in fact the same age at which children can get married in Texas (with court permission). Again, I don’t think such an age is appropriate for marriage at all no matter where it is, but please don’t characterize this as a specifically Islamic fault which is universal and will never change.

Also, about calling Muhammad a pedophile: I may’ve not been clear enough in my original post and for that I apologize. I’ll try to explain in a different way. “Pedophilia” is a psychiatric condition which, like all psychiatric conditions, depends upon the culture in which a person lives. That’s why indigenous peoples who believe they see or hear spirits aren’t labeled as having hallucinations. It is a culturally appropriate behavior. This is comparable to the situation with Muhammad. He was acting in accordance with social norms therefore his behavior was not dysfunctional and wouldn’t be considered a paraphilia, even if people today don’t agree with it.

Posted by: wildhorses at April 16, 2005 10:16 PM

Hi Beth,
I will try my best to respond to your post, and to further explain my original one. You will notice that when I mentioned the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I made no mention whatsoever of Islam. This is because I was referring more to the social aspects of the conflict rather than religious ones. Throughout history, people who are invaded, oppressed, and victimized fight back against their oppressors. This happened with the American slaves against their owners, the Native Americans against westward expanding settlers, and countless others. The situation is similar in Palestine, for all the same reasons. As for the Palestinians violating international law which you mentioned, I think you will find that neither side is without fault in this conflict; in fact, Israel has systematically defied international laws and pressure, and has been criticized by many countries for doing so.

As for the rest of your post, I will try to address the points you made and also offer a few humble suggestions for a tighter argument on your part.

1. CAIR is Islam.
CAIR supports the Hamas.
Hamas is Islam.
These statements are fraught with fallacies of logical reasoning. I won’t go into those here, but I would suggest you get a book on critical thinking or logic or something to make your arguments a little more coherent (there are a lot of good ones out there).
2. This sort of ties in with 1, because most books on critical thinking also include some information on source selection. The Quranic quotations you give to support your views were written with the bracketed annotations which I suspect are not yours, but come from some other source. These sources are very dangerous to use in an argument or for your own learning because of their obvious bias against Islam and the lack of expertise of the writer, who in most cases is not an adherent to the religion in question, has no theological training, and is almost certainly not an expert in Arabic. (You can read that critical thinking book and find out why bias is bad but the other things should be obvious.) Would you honestly go to a rabbi to learn about Jesus or a Sikh to learn about Hinduism? If you truly want to understand Islam, get a mainstream, widely respected translation and if you think you need a commentary, go with a traditional tafsir rather than whatever this or that self proclaimed “expert” happens to be spouting.
3. Thirdly, the condemnation of a religion based upon a few quotations taken out of context is overly simplistic. You are committing the same error that certain Islamic fundamentalists do by taking one or a few verses and basing a wide ranging believe upon them (the Quran even addresses this by saying something to the effect that some things within it are literal and others are only figurative). The problem is with the interpretation, not the religion. The Quran does contain statements which many people would find offensive, but it also emphasizes taking care of orphans and giving to charity, etc. Furthermore, you can find statements which offend our modern sensibilities in ANY religion. I’ll go with Christianity since that is one that I’m fairly familiar with: “O daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us—he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks” (Psalm 137; NIV). Another one: Moses says in Numbers 31, “Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.” (NIV). (There are literally hundreds of others, but those came to mind first.) I certainly find these things offensive. Does that mean that Christianity is a horrible religion? Of course not; you simply can’t take a few statements out of context and base your views of a whole religion upon them.

Anyway, I know that I haven’t answered your post the way you wanted me to, but I do hope you will take into consideration some of the things I’ve said.

Posted by: wildhorses at April 16, 2005 11:50 PM

But of course, wildhorses, neither Christians nor Jews are doing anything of the kind today. Those that would fall into the category of "insanity". This is no exaggeration.

By contrast, every Quranic crime or evil in the hadiths is found today in islamic society.

Christian societies seem to have left this behind. Islamic ones have not.

Things for you to ponder.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 17, 2005 2:41 AM

BTW, Aisha herself also said that "no one suffers more than the believing [islamic] woman" - a cry for help that resounds through the ages.

Gives me shivers just thinking about it.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 17, 2005 2:43 AM

Hi Geoff,
Sorry, but I’m not sure what you’re referring to by “anything of the kind” that Jews and Christians are supposedly not doing. If you mean child marriage, here’s some statistics for you:

Nepal and India are both overwhelmingly Hindu, and their percentages of girls married before age 18 are 63% and 57%, respectively. In some areas girls are married off as young as six months old.

In Ethiopia there are nearly as many Christians as there are Muslims, and the percentage of girls married before age 18 is 57%. In Uganda (66% Christian with an even split between Catholics and Protestants, and only 16% Muslim), half of the girls are married before 18.

Obviously not an entirely Muslim phenomenon. (stats are from ICRW by the way)

If you were instead referring to Christians or Jews acting upon violent passages in their scriptures, here’s a few thoughts…

First of all, just because SOME people act upon violent one-liners in their holy books doesn’t mean that ALL the followers of that religion agree with the approach.

Secondly, from your post it seems like you are aware the Christian church has a rather violent past. Currently Christianity can be considered the largest, richest, and most influential religion in the world, so obviously, always getting their way, they don’t HAVE to resort to violence because they’ve already done that and won against threats to their religion. The only real threat to Christianity today in my opinion would be scientific progress or something like that. And when Christians feel threatened by abortion or evolution or whatever, some DO in fact resort to violence. For example the Christian activists shooting up abortion clinics or laying down in front of abortion doctors’ SUVs, and sending death threats to Terry Schiavo’s husband or to proponents of changing the Pledge of Allegiance. This doesn’t mean that ALL Christians are bad though, going back to my first point. Same goes for Jews (by the way there are quite a few violent Jewish extremists out there, too).

Sorry if you weren’t referring to either of those things; if not you’ll have to clarify.

Posted by: wildhorses at April 17, 2005 5:30 PM

Tu quoque and taqiyya - how typical and [yawn] familiar from muslim posters.

I am relieved, however, that at least this muslim (wildhorses) agrees that muhammad was NOT the "ideal man" whose behavior is to be emulated "for all time and in all places".

Posted by: CGW at April 17, 2005 5:56 PM

So sorry to disappoint, CGW, but I'm not Muslim. I just call it like I see it.

Posted by: wildhorses at April 17, 2005 8:57 PM

Hi Beth,
I will try my best to respond to your post, and to further explain my original one. You will notice that when I mentioned the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I made no mention whatsoever of Islam. This is because I was referring more to the social aspects of the conflict rather than religious ones.

Wildhorses,

We HAVE to go into the religious aspects of it.

It is the religions of this world that are causing such fires to reage out of control. Peoples lives are on th line { THAT is why we have to face what is ailing this world.

You said...

As for the Palestinians violating international law which you mentioned, I think you will find that neither side is without fault in this conflict

Neither side is without fault. I totally agree!

But that is not adressing the CAUSE of it all. Is it?

We can play the blame game all day - and it won't get anyone - anywhere.

That is why I choose to bring up the cause - rather than the blame, because peoples' lives are on the line - everyday.

you said...

1. CAIR is Islam.
CAIR supports the Hamas.
Hamas is Islam.
These statements are fraught with fallacies of logical reasoning.

How so?

you said...

but I would suggest you get a book on critical thinking or logic or something to make your arguments a little more coherent

What books would be better to use than the Bible and the Koran?

What? is mankind wiser than God?

you said...

The Quranic quotations you give to support your views were written with the bracketed annotations which I suspect are not yours, but come from some other source.

ok wildhorses....here...here they are - pure and straight from the Koran:

004.101 When ye travel through the earth , there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land.

004.100 He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious.

004.104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships.

008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere.

004.092 Never should a believer kill a believer

009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term.

009.005 But when the forbidden months are past then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what ''' the unbelievers ''' of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks.

wildhorses? I didn't give any of those words. al-Qaeda didn't give any of those words. Osama bin laden didn't give any of those words. The allah of the Koran gives those words - everyday.

you said...

These sources are very dangerous to use in an argument or for your own learning because of their obvious bias against Islam and the lack of expertise of the writer, who in most cases is not an adherent to the religion in question, has no theological training, and is almost certainly not an expert in Arabic.

How are my words more dangerous than allah's?

I am against slaying ANYONE! I am against smiting at necks! I am against forcing those who don't believe as I do - to submit to my God.

I am against traveling the earth - even though it be "wide and spacious" to conive and commit treason other lands.

you said...

I’ll go with Christianity since that is one that I’m fairly familiar with: “O daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us—he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks”

O Daughter of Babylon is of the Testament of the Jews - not the Christians. Christians did not appear until the New Testament - in Antioch - not Jerusalem Act 11:26

Jesus is Rock.

The 'little ones' that are 'dashed against the Rock' are children of the devil.

The Word of the Rock - condemns them - unto the death - the REAL one.

And why? because His Works are Righteous.

you said...

Moses says in Numbers 31, “Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

slept - in the grave.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world {of which there are many worlds]: the angels [NOT HUMANS] shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just

God speaks to the heavens AND the earth.

Rev 13:6 And he [satan] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

There MANY people in heaven} Rev 19:1

Humans are not aloud to hurt other humans! Not according to the God of the Bible. They're not even aloud to hurt their enemies:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

We are commanded [everyone of us - you included wildhorses] - to speak the Truth

Here's the challenge wildhorses:

Try and present that same message that allah gives - using the New Testament. Go ahead - do it.

Arrainge them in any order you like.

Until you come forth with Scriptures - pure and straight - from the New Testament - you have no argument.

And those two books on this earth DO matter - more than anything else upon it.

They have the power to affect WHOLE societies. And in the case of the Koran - people are getting slaughtered.

Out of the very mouth of allah himself - the command is "fight and slay the pagans WHEREVER ye find them" {I didn't say that - allah does!

And if you need years of professors and 'experts' to convince you that "slaying the pagans" is acceptable - how many years will it take for you to see the simple Truth - Truth that is on a level that any child can understand?

Slaying anyone just because they don't believe as you do - is - simply put - MURDER!

Why would you insist upon adding confusion to such a simple understanding?

you said....

Does that mean that Christianity is a horrible religion? Of course not; you simply can’t take a few statements out of context and base your views of a whole religion upon them.

Give the Scriptures from the New Testament - The Christians Book - that would support the 'Crusaders'

Bring them forth - if you can.

Thank you wildhorses - for giving me this opportunity - to allow allah to speak through me so that everyone can see just what Islam is truly all about - for themselves - without ALL of the 'wise' men and 'experts' of this world adding their input.

Oh - by the way? According to the Bible?

WOE be unto them! If they reject the Word of God [and many have] - they are condemned by the Word of God - a condemnation that is death - an eternal one Jer 51:39 - Psa 13:3 - Rev 20:6

you said...

Anyway, I know that I haven’t answered your post the way you wanted me to, but I do hope you will take into consideration some of the things I’ve said.

I hope you will take into consideration some of the things that 'allah' says.

Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs?

so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Posted by: Beth at April 19, 2005 1:25 PM

wildhorses?

All of Islam has to condemn the 'English' version of the Koran - in order to support your argument.

I don't believe that will ever happen.

Here are 3 different english translations of "The Noble Qur'an":

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

If allah can't speak in english - then what right does he have sending his own into the english nations?

The allah of the Koran is here - in the english nations. And even though allah doesn't like it - he is going to have to play by some different rules!

The right Speak - whether allah likes it or not.

Posted by: Beth at April 19, 2005 2:05 PM