damn if only we all followed the wonderful examples set by syria, iran, yemen, saudi arabia and sudan what a wonderful world this would be, i mean libya chaired the u.n human rights commison so the arab world must be the bastion of freedoms and human rights.

I got a message for you arabs, you screw with Israel and America and you'll be nothing more than glass and ash. That will be our message of force.

Posted by: Pegcity at April 21, 2005 8:43 AM

I wish they'd tell us how they really feel.

Posted by: DCWatson at April 21, 2005 9:09 AM

Why do they call those "sermons" , and why Im I not surprised? These clowns are modern day reincarnations of Mohammad...still bullshitting the troops. Those who can BS the troops gain power and that power gains money. And that money gains more power and then more money....a game the rich and powerful like to play. Power and riches, a powerful narcotic combination. Islam is not immune to this, in fact it is perfectly set up for it. A few geniuses, a mass of idiots,and a lot of BS. As long as Allah is involved profits can be made.
"Death to America" chants, just prove that the BS plot is working and the bucks will keep rolling in. Ever notice the fine linens these Ayatollahs wear? None of them look like they miss any meals. They drive around in fancy cars and drink Pepsi's in the back seat...Allahs rewards for his best BS'ers...sounds like a great job...someone else does the work, someone else puts themselves in danger, and all the upper crust does is luxuriate and keep pumping out the BS...wonder where you sign up?

Posted by: duh_swami at April 21, 2005 9:21 AM

I think I'm seeing something here with the recent comments in sand land. I take particular interest in the many grievous sins of the Jews and Amerika, yet Christianity is a good thing.
The implication is real Christians should hate the Jews and the great Satan. And so it seems in Europe, and they're trying to get us to hate ourselves. Start them young and they are yours, witness their work in primary education.

Hate seems to be their hole card. When the time is right unleash the hatred, enable the Jew haters and associate the hate with Amerika.

That these tactics seem to work can be seen in Europe today. The only thing we're missing are the brown shirts.

It is clear to me that if you are Jewish, you should leave Europe for either Amerika or Israel.

Posted by: BillR at April 21, 2005 9:35 AM

'Every day the hatred festers...' - what else have they got?

Posted by: Terminator at April 21, 2005 10:07 AM

Enough of this crap. We need to monitor electronic communications worldwide, and any station that broadcasts threats to the United States should be jammed so no one can see or hear it. The war against us is over the air, so must our defense be there.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at April 21, 2005 10:11 AM

'Death to America'? They like America really; they're just misunderstood.

Posted by: Interested at April 21, 2005 10:17 AM

I was in the army in 1989 as the wall went down, what a joy it was to see an enemy vaporize,
what a shortlived joy.

Posted by: TBH_1 at April 21, 2005 10:37 AM

BillR, don't think that us Europeans are all against the Jewish people, I have the greatest respect for Israel and the Jewish people who are one with us. I would be proud to stand up to the plate with my Jewish brothers and sisters.

At one point I was upset with Israel for still building settlements while negotiating peace, but now that I understand the facism of Islam, I understand Israel's actions.

There is intellectual racism towards Jews as carried out by the elites in the UK and the Labour party, there is the lower class thuggary of the National Front, however without exception the people I am friends with support Israel and see the Jewish people as part of the West. I would suggest that there is a very large part of the population who are completely bemused over the hatred towards the Jewish people and reject it completely.

The intention here is to wake up people to the fascism in Islam, the majority of anti-Jewish acts in France are carried out by Islamics so do not tar me with those scum!

You know that the European people are ashamed of what was done to the Jews, you know that they fall over themselves not to be like this, but in doing so they are inviting their own destruction by Islam.

People like me are concentrating on Islam as a fascist ideology, we need to get away from the racism bit, I reject Islam because it is a direct attack on my freedom.

Finally I can not equate Israeli actions with those of the Palestinians, targetting a militant with a missile is targetting a combatent, tagetting a bus full of children, a line of youngsters queing up to go to a disco and elderly people eating a passover meal is not. From my prespective Israel has shown remarkable tolerence in the face of such aggression. And I still have aboslute disgust for those Israeli's beaten to death in a Palestinian prison, that picture of a young Palastinian waving his blood soaked arms out of the window was something I for one will never forget.

I know my enemy and it is not the Jewish people or Israel.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 21, 2005 11:46 AM

Here is a wonderful shot of what awaits these fools if they continue on their present course. This my friends is what the real coming on clouds of glory will look like to them.

Posted by: f.g. at April 21, 2005 12:05 PM

a mass exodus of jews from europe would accomplish 2 things, (1)it would cripple the european economy who would be stuck paying for all the muslim bums living on welfare (2)the arabs would could scream all they wanted and it would make no difference.

Posted by: Pegcity at April 21, 2005 12:42 PM

Only slightly OT, People working at DOD under false IDs.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/terencejeffrey/tj20050420.shtml

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 12:54 PM

Daffersd:

I understand your feelings, but good men stood silent while the Nazis first vilified, then humiliated, and then exterminated every Jew in sight.

The good people of Europe did nothing about it then and I expect they will do the same when civil unrest gets out of hand. Led of course by our peace loving Muslim friends. After all, the Jooos hold a special place in their heart.

One by one the European states are being subjugated, going down the long dark tunnel with a whimper, just as they did in 1939.

I'm afraid I see the dark clouds and lightning on the European horizon.

Posted by: BillR at April 21, 2005 1:02 PM

Take a king - who has subjects that worship him - along with all the people of the land.

They believe he is the greatest thing.

What would happen to that king if it could be accomplished to show how that king played them all for fools?... used them for his own selfish advantage?....even getting them slaughtered - just so he could 'glorious' in their eyes?

That king would be finished!

That very thing can be done to 'allah' - because he is not as "Wise and All knowing" as he claims to be.

Throwing insults or threats makes us NO better then allah's servants.

Destroying allah - makes us better.....makes the WHOLE world better!

allah is a murderer and a liar.....and that can be proven.

The place to begin - is that he FORGOT to mention Palestine - thereby proving - he is not as "Wise and All knowing" as he claims himself to be.

It's a WORDGAME people.

allah uses hatred and violence.

surely his servants must feel filthy

Offer them something to make them feel clean...

and the hatred will stop.

2Cr 10:4 The weapons [Scriptures] of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. {This God is not a liar!

He didn't forget to mention Palestine.

He condemned it!

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?

No one likes to look like a fool.

This Truth about Palestine will certainly make the vicious mouths of allah look just like that - FOOLS!

Posted by: Beth at April 21, 2005 2:11 PM

More things to worry about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A57774-2005Apr15?language=printer

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 2:42 PM

Interesting story on the Muslim "halal" food industry in Malaysia. Worth looking at because on the "faith based" path that we are headed, in short order your office or industrial establishment will have to provide halal facilities for your belligerent Muslim co-workers. They will get that after they get separate prayer rooms, and paid interruptions from work to pray to a non-existent god who was concocted to improve the personal lot of a lusty pedophile who was disatisfied with being a toy-boy to a rich woman who was 15 years his senior.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=reutersEdgeNews&storyID=713053

Posted by: smokem at April 21, 2005 2:46 PM

France backs China

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1559253,00.html

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 2:56 PM

The last post is courtesy of Charles Johnson at LGFhttp://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 2:59 PM

The only thing that I can see that is out of line is the "Death to America" part. Other than that, I don't see that the views expressed by the Iranian clerics is in any way incompatible with reality. It is no secret that the Iraq war was a sham from the beginning nor is it a secret that $8 billion is missing from Iraq's Oil money when it was being controlled by the CPA nor is it a secret that powerful elements within Israel are seeking the displacement and/or destruction of all Goyim in the Holy Land to create the Jewish only Yeretz Israel.

Anyway, please don't forget that MEMRI is an anti-Arab, anti-Muslim organization that has a clever way of presenting one sided material in order to further their owner's political agenda.

Posted by: Shukri at April 21, 2005 3:14 PM

The Islamic leaders were talking in a room and my spy fly was on the wall, it flew back and with my special patent pending fly language to English converter, told me they said-

"Can you believe it, how we are still getting away with our shi* after all these years? Foolish infidels! How the West just lets us come in and spit in their faces and preach the Jihad and nobody does anything about it? (laughter and chortles)Can you believe how STUPID they are. Let's pray to Allahgator that we get the atomic bombs and destroy them before they wise up".

Posted by: Cross at April 21, 2005 3:35 PM

BillR,

That happened, but the French side of my familly actually hid Jews in their hotel at some risk to themselves. Not everyone stood by. I for one would not stand by, anyway this anti-Jewish attitude of the British elite sickens me.

I agree with you that we are on a dangerous path, I know what needs to be done, but there is not the will, our leaders are headless chickens who are blind to the threat or chose to ignore it.

The Islam threat is like pension reform, the longer you leave it the worse it gets...

Shukri,

So we only understand force then, Islams true nature becoming apparant.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 21, 2005 3:35 PM

Shurki, as usual you're presenting your arguments as factual, when they're only opinion. It is, for example, your OPINION that the Gulf War was a "sham"; even I, as a leftist, don't presume to 'know' that it was a sham. It seems a very strange way to make money for an economy and keep oil prices low, by spending trillions on a war and making oil prices climb to record levels.

It is also your (anti-Semitic) opinion that there are powerful Jewish elements trying to kill all non-Jews within Israel (and, presumably what; rule the world as well?). If this is a "secret" then it appears to be a very well-kept one. And you whine about islamic conspiracies! LOL!

Lastly, of course, MEMRI is a fine institution, presenting merely what is presented in Arabic television, by muslims. (I note that recent discussion in some islamicist circles concerns not "how can we clean up antisemitism in our society?" but "how can we start an organization to counter MEMRI?" The truth hurts, I suppose.)

One can hardly blame MEMRI for exposing the truth; a topic every islamofascist who comes here rants and raves about until they get booted from the site. Are you implying MEMRI makes this stuff up? If so, how? More Jewish conspiracies? Please, don't make me laugh. Libel is not a suitable response to intellectual challenge; you will please refrain from it here.

You also forgot to post the response to your link, which completely refutes all the noise that the original article on MEMRI makes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,778373,00.html

Incidentally, the original article amounted to more invective and opinion rather than actual fact. Unless you can isolate a few complaints for discussion, leave it alone.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 21, 2005 4:14 PM

Geoff:

Aside from creating bogeymen -- like the Jews and Israelis, who have not killed nearly so many Palestinians as the Palestinians have themselves (Shukri might know of this if only he looked into the stats about the "2nd Intifada" and found out that many of them died blowing themselves up or using their fellows as human shields, etc.) to deflect attention from their own iniquity (Saudi nobles and Iranian mullahs c'mon down), the only thing the Islamists know is invective and opinion.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at April 21, 2005 4:32 PM

I guess they MEMRI also made up that deeply offensive and racist tirade against Germans in a Berlin mosque by an imam. (Just being sarcastic!, the Guardian is seriously left wing and anti-Israeli.)

Islam is being found out Shurki, this site and others are doing their job very well, keep pointing out those sites that do a very bad job at masking the truth.

Posted by: Daffersd at April 21, 2005 4:34 PM

BillR - you are beginning to sound like Bigel of LGF.

Posted by: DP111 at April 21, 2005 5:54 PM

BillR, bigel is famous, just Google "bigel option"
From a post a LGF-

"Is it time to advocate the Bigel option?

BTW - only really cool people know what the Bigel option is..." LOL

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 6:31 PM

The Bigel Option works for me.

Posted by: Gary at April 21, 2005 6:45 PM

carolyn2:

Last I hear is that Bigel is banned from LGF. Apparantly, Charles Johnson, after numerous warnings to Bigel to let up, got fed up with him.

Bigel started his postings on LGF, some 2 years ago, by playing on the sympathy for Jews in their predicament. Then he advised all Jews to leave Europe asap. His hatred of Britain though was and is, something special. All through the Iraq war, Bigel did his best to sow distrust between the two main allies ie Britain and the US. Many European and British supporters of Israel, and the war in Iraq, stopped posting on LGF or came on very infrequently.

On many occasions on LGF, at the time of the war in Iraq, I posted that Bigel was an agent provacateur, out to disrupt relations between American and Brit posters on LGF, and probably, to harm LGF's reputation. This was also the opinion of many.

Bigel's postings, in my opinion, did a lot of damage to LGF's reputation, at a critical time in the war.

Posted by: DP111 at April 21, 2005 6:55 PM

DP111, yes, I heard. He played a joke on Ed (the weatherman) and Charles didn't think it was funny. Actually bigel did it to stir things up, Charles said he had warned him, so he had no choice.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 7:21 PM

A quote from the Winston Churchill book "The River
War", published in 1899, sounds just as appropriate today:

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property‹either as a child, a wife, or a concubine‹must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science‹the science against which it had vainly struggled‹the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Posted by: sococm at April 21, 2005 7:22 PM

Well, I'm cool.

Course I know what the "bigel option" is.

Psst - BigSleep, what's the bigel option, dude?

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 21, 2005 7:23 PM

Think we are all used to 'DEATH TO AMERIKA' rhetoric. If selected Iranians didn't scream this on cue - they would be dangling from a crane in a sports stadium! Nearly all of us are aware of 'freedoms ' the population enjoys under their 'holy mullahs.' Let us pity rather than blame the Islamic Slaves who are caught between Sharia 'mercy' and brutal death if they don't conform. Of course the Mullahs are living it up and are hated throughout Iran. Their day will soon be done but LET THE IRANIANS TOPPLE THEIR SCUMBAG LEADERS WITH NO OBVIOUS INTERFERENCE FROM THE WEST!
A little O.T but looks like new Pope might be RIGHT MAN for Europe judging by Muslim comments.
Also despite Mike Moore and raging anti Bush propaganda he was re-elected. Chirac & Shroeder are already in trouble as Europe keeps voting 'Right Wing'. Am watching with interest to see if Blair falls - horses are racing neck to neck in Brits Grand National...

Posted by: Morgane at April 21, 2005 7:51 PM

Geoff-

"Bigel"? Having just a glancing 'info only' acqaintance with LGF, I can only guess.

Lie? (As in the Hitlerian "if you must deceive, tell a Big Lie, and you are more likely to be believed?)

Or is it Elvis? THE Big El? (Eat fried banana, bacon & peanut butter sandwiches, bloat up and die?)

Clue me in, or can I find it via a googol?

(I'll look around meanwhile.)

Posted by: BigSleep at April 21, 2005 7:58 PM

Hojjat Al-Eslam Yahya Ja'fari says,

"As you know, the biggest problem of the Islamic world today is global Zionism and the Great Satan - America."

It couldn't possibly be the the religion itself?

"They are our enemies, especially the enemies of the Islamic Republic of Iran."

Who is speaking here? The people or the dictators? Yes, we are the enemies of the dictators.

"They do not understand [the language of] reason, they do not follow international law, nor do they follow moral and humane laws. They have no religion and they do not accept God."

Reason according to whom? International law which the Mullahs desire? Humanity according to a select group of interloping despots posing as spiritual esoterics?

Whose religion and whose God?

These questions are not considered by the theocracy. Theirs is the ultimate truth. Does this not comprise a theocractic dictatorship?

It is interesting that this phrase,

"If the prophet Jesus were among us, would he justify the criminal measures America takes today in the name of promoting democracy and freedom?"

precedes this,

"...the Europeans, Americans, and Israelis do not understand and will not accept any language but the language of force."

as if Jesus would advocate the "language of force."

Rafsanjani's sermons need no comment. His time has come and gone, but now he hangs to his precarious post with well groomed nails. He, like all fascists, will meet his end strapped to a post.

Posted by: Skeet Street at April 21, 2005 8:01 PM

I posted the entire article at DW, but I think it needs to be here, too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,1463610,00.html

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 8:31 PM

Thankyou Caroline2 for the Guardian article.

Posted by: dby at April 21, 2005 8:46 PM

Shukri,
you are a silly blighter; there are a million and a half arab moslems who are Israeli citizens, who vote, go to Israeli universities, run businesses, work for the Israeli govt, etc, and who prefer Israel citizenship to palestinian, which they could have for the asking.
These arab moslems are better educated than any other arab moslem population in the world, and keeping in mind that one third of all the doctorates given by Saudi universities are for 'islamic studies' ( now there's useful knowledge for the 21st century - aaaagh), way ahead of the pack.

Memri has showed clips that are positive to arab or iranian moslem societies, though i think it is hard to find positive ones.

The reality i see is that people who knew nothing about islam and moslems and were open minded, have become increasingly angry and upset with islam as they learn more about it, and see how muslim societies work/ don't work, and what muslims do in the world and what they use for justification, what they teach their children ( hate, hate, hate, in the name of the messenger ), what they show on tv ( more hate ).
Memri shows us muslim societies, largely arab and persian, and from this we learn.

islam is unworthy, and as such, is doomed.
That is the way it is Shukri, islam is doing its dying, in threshing agony, right in front of us, right now. Will take several generations, and it won't be pretty. Wether we end up with a totally different islam or no islam at all is the only question not answered.

Posted by: dby at April 21, 2005 9:20 PM

whether, whether....

Posted by: dby at April 21, 2005 9:21 PM

This one makes me sick. Tell us again, Shukri how muslims are mistreated when captured.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_helicopter_killing

Posted by: Carolyn2 at April 21, 2005 9:48 PM

"Allah be praised, every passing day the peoples' hatred festers"

The other day I was watching what I thought was a Star Wars movie. You know evil men like Darth Vader dressed in black robes exhorting evil and saying "embrace the dark side. The hate will make you powerful. Blow those defenceless people up etc etc" Then I realised I was watching a rally lead by Iranian Mullahs. My mistake but it is hard to tell the difference.

Posted by: obl r us at April 21, 2005 10:19 PM

Next time you see the Iranian Mullahs on tv marching up to the rally podium at the next Islamo-dark side rally you may hear this.

http://moviethemes.net/music/starwars/imperial-march.mid

Posted by: obl r us at April 21, 2005 10:29 PM

Death to Amerika...

Death to Amerika...

Death to Amerika...

They have lyrics, but no melody. I am still awaiting the great Islamic Musical.

Posted by: SCV at April 21, 2005 10:50 PM

It's like "Springtime for Hitler", but with beards and burkhas; no ice-skating.

The antagonists are the same though: Free Thought and Pesky Old Shecky the Jew, still up to their old tricks, the infidels! Fornication and shirk! And fornication!

Fun for the whole family. Free rocks for the under-fives.

Geoff

"Death to A-meeericaaa,
Death to AAAAHHH-MEEEERR-IIII-CAAAAA!"

(Act 9, Scene 5)

Posted by: Geoff at April 21, 2005 11:05 PM

BigSleep:

Rearranging the letters (for truth, like hidden mysticism, the precise location of Jesus' tomb in Southern France, the secrets of the Quran and the NYT Crossword, can only be understood via combination, conjunction and pericombobulation) I get:

"eGLIB".

As in "glib on the internet". I think that this must be a clue.

I'll let you know more as I find it. Don't forget the secret handshake; Carolyn suspects.

Trust no one, Agent BigSleep.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 21, 2005 11:11 PM

So we only understand force then, Islams true nature becoming apparant.

Daffersd, it is very clear from the current Iraq war that lack of a threat did not prevent the US from aggresively seeking to start a war. This has proven to everyone, especially Iran, that even if they do not have WMD, that will in no way prevent the US from attacking them. Hence, it is understood that only force will deter US Foreign Policy from perpetrating aggression.

It is, for example, your OPINION that the Gulf War was a "sham"

Geoff, I posted a link sometime ago to a diplomatic transcription (let me look it up and post it again) that Ms. Gillespie, US Ambassador to Iraq pre-Kuwait-invasion met with Saddam Hussein, in a pre-Kuwait-invasion meeting, and told him that the US has "no opinion" on "Arab-Arab" conflicts. This was specific permission for Iraq to attack Kuwait removing the one obstacle (since Iraq was then a US puppet) of US objection. Hence a sham war.

It is also your (anti-Semitic) opinion that there are powerful Jewish elements trying to kill all non-Jews within Israel (and, presumably what; rule the world as well?).

They are not really trying to kill all non-Jews. Rather they are out to subjugate them. Israel was built with good intentions (provide Jews with a home where they don't have to suffer European Christian anti-Semitism) but with racist undertones (complete disregard for the regions native Arab population). Most of the inhabitants of Israel are immigrants from the West. Only a very small percentage has lived there for any significant length of time.

You also forgot to post the response to your link, which completely refutes all the noise that the original article on MEMRI makes

The writer of this refutation did not dispute his ties to Israeli intelligence nor did he inform us as to what extent this influences coverage of stories. There is every indication that MEMRI selects stories based on a pre-approved political agenda.

you are a silly blighter; there are a million and a half arab moslems who are Israeli citizens

dby, perhaps you are not informed of the intense discrimination against Arabs in Israeli society?

That is the way it is Shukri, islam is doing its dying

Actually Islam is thriving. If anything, the Muslim nation is in the pains of childbirth.

This one makes me sick. Tell us again, Shukri how muslims are mistreated when captured.

If that Marine had not executed that disarmed mujahid in the mosque in Fallujah, this poor mercenary would not have been executed. Only after a US/ Occupier atrocity does the resistance retaliate. For instance, only after the torture of Abu Ghraib was exposed did the beheadings begin.

Posted by: Shukri at April 21, 2005 11:25 PM

The tone of a number of posts suggests that Osama Bin Laden is getting what he wanted--inter-civilizational war.

Shukri: the bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi and Dar-es-Salaam, plus the first WTC bombing and some plots to bomb the NYC subways happened before Gulf War II. These were not the same thing as beheadings, but they were still lethal or potentially lethal attacks on America.

By the way, Shukri, let's go back to 1979, and the Iranian hostage crisis. Had the USA not been predominantly Christian and located in the Western Hemisphere, but, say, had been a Muslim Superpower (let's say Sunni as well) embracing the lands from the bend of the Yellow River to the Black Sea; what do you think would've happened to Iran after taking diplomats hostage?

And don't tell me that Muslims don't fight each other. Your history isn't such a closed book to the rest of us; so we know there have been Muslim-on-Muslim conflicts since shortly after Muhammad's death.

Pegcity: The mass exodus of Jews from Europe probably won't have that great an effect on the European economy. For one thing, the ownership of wealth in Europe is highly variegated, has been for a very long time, and the Jews are simply not that numerous. Ages ago, talk of Jewish bankers controlling the world's wealth was mere anti-Semitic oral and written diarrhea; and today, it should be left with the ignoramuses of Hadhramut and Kelatan. Getting back to Europe, that continent has learned to live without much of a Jewish presence ever since 1945.

On the other hand, Europe going Muslim would have a large effect on its economy. Islam seems to regard man as more a player than a worker; and its historical pattern has been that its most productive and gifted people have always been in close contact with dhimmi or outsiders (even algebra and the zero were transmitted from the Indians, who were mostly Hindu and Buddhist at the time of the Islamic conquest of Sindh).

Posted by: Kepha at April 22, 2005 12:16 AM

If that Marine had not executed that disarmed mujahid in the mosque in Fallujah, this poor mercenary would not have been executed. Only after a US/ Occupier atrocity does the resistance retaliate. For instance, only after the torture of Abu Ghraib was exposed did the beheadings begin.

Posted by: Shukri at April 21, 2005 11:25 PM

Torture at Abu Ghraib?

Panties on the head and butt pyramids do not represent torture. What is torture, however, is reading rubbish like Shukri's excuses for robotic infidel Muslims slashing throats and bombing innocent people.

Allah is no God. Muhammad was no prophet. Islam is a fabrication. A fake. A phony.

Posted by: Prickzilla at April 22, 2005 12:40 AM

"We are passing God's judgement"

This is what the terrorists said as they shot the wounded man from the helicopter crash.

I am so tired of people, Muslims especially, acting as if they have any idea of what God wants. Truth is, nobody knows. All religion came from man. When do we take Islam away from these people? I support any means needed. Sorry, you "moderate" muslims, but you are just as guilty as you let the snakes dwell in your own backyard and do nothing about it. Destroy the schools that teach Islam. Destroy the printing presses that print the Koran. Make all that teach Islam "disappear from our planet" by any means. I don't care about the rights of muslims anymore. They will not co-exist peacefully, so they should have no rights. I can not believe I feel these things, for I am an educated, enlightened human. I don't care what my neighbor does, as long as he feels the same about me. Live, and let live. But the muslim feels as if he has to force his agenda on all around him. And too many feel they have the right to pass final judgement on whomever they feel has slighted Islam, whatever their interpretation. When do we all say "ENOUGH!!!"?

Posted by: Hans at April 22, 2005 1:16 AM

By the way, Shukri, let's go back to 1979, and the Iranian hostage crisis. Had the USA not been predominantly Christian and located in the Western Hemisphere, but, say, had been a Muslim Superpower (let's say Sunni as well) embracing the lands from the bend of the Yellow River to the Black Sea; what do you think would've happened to Iran after taking diplomats hostage?

Kepha, The Americans engineered and executed a Coup in Iran(over oil, what else?) that brought down Iran's democratic government in the 1950's and replaced it with the Shah and his brutal SAVAK. The Iranians have been extremely reserved in responding to the aggression of a country that was and continues to be a threat to their national security.

Panties on the head and butt pyramids do not represent torture.

Prickzilla, considering the depths of degradation and immorality that Western society has reached to, it is not surprising that you do not consider it to be torture.

What is torture, however, is reading rubbish like Shukri's excuses for robotic infidel Muslims slashing throats and bombing innocent people.

With the rare exception of a minute quantity of idiot terrorists targetting Shiite's, I have not seen in any way that the Iraqi resistance targets innocents. Regarding recent reports, one should note the lack of reliable information about the circumstances surrounding events.

Again, I will point out that there were no beheadings in Iraq before the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Similarly, the execution of this Bulgarian crew member would not have happened had that Marine not executed the Iraqi in the Fallujah mosque.

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." - Samuel P. Huntington

Posted by: Shukri at April 22, 2005 1:26 AM

Shukri-here is an opinion piece from an Iraqi living in Baghdad. Please read the section on the terrorists, if you will.

I don't think I need to tell you how close is the 9th of April to my heart. And now, after two years happiness is still the same for me; one person among millions who were freed on that great day.

The 9th of April had turned one of the darkest pages in our history and opened the door wide before the people and their dreams, just as when the idol was knocked down, fear and oppression were knocked down as well.

No day matches you, my brightest day. We will keep reaping your fruits while the entire neighborhood follow your light and wait for other days like you to sweep away the remaining rotten idols.

The 9th of April has proven that the free world now has the guts and the required determination to make the change and throw the legacy of the past century behind its back; dictators shall be endorsed no more and the struggle will continue until humanity is freed from its dark nightmare that lasted way longer than it should have.

The winds of change that have blown away the tyrant in Iraq have begun to reach more and more people everyday and the heroic stand of Iraqis is inspiring freedom lovers in Beirut and Cairo, Kuwait and Bahrain, Arabia and Damascus; people are screaming enough is enough; enough for tyranny, enough for repression and enough for slavery.

Some naysayers and losers will say that terror had marked the past two years in Iraq but we the Iraqis believe that terrorism is merely the defeated remnants of evil fed by the other tyrants who got terrified from the fall of their demonic master. They're holding onto a weak thread that will soon be broken no matter how hard they try.

Today we can see the idol of terror shaking and losing balance from the powerful strike Iraqis had given it on the glorious election day; the day when the world stood amazed before the extraordinary bravery of Iraqis defying fear and walking through bullets and bombs to say their word and give terror the purple finger.

The 9th of April paved the way for that historic revolution and I think this is more than enough to make us keep this day in our hearts forever.

We have passed the cruel tests of terror, we went to cast our ballots and we're rebuilding what was destroyed and we're looking forward to building more and more but most important is that we're going to write our holy book, our constitution, by ourselves to preserve our freedom and stop tyranny from invading our land again.

After decades of isolation enforced by Saddam on Iraq, today Iraqis come back to join the free world and catch up with what they had missed; slowly but surely.

Some shortsighted people doubt the outcome of this day and think that it's not suitable to announce it a success but we say to them:
You're free to think whatever you like, we got on the train, but you’re standing still.

I will save the effort of explaining to them what they missed because several years from now when Iraq becomes a beacon of civilization in the region you will find out the truth solid and clear but unfortunately I'm positive that they won't admit it and they will try to find another funeral to practice the only hobby they're good at; whining and weeping. So today we're offering a last chance to choose between joining the real world and joining Muqtada and Harith Al-Dhari.

Go and chant with them, condemn democracy and march against freedom if you like but don't forget that those thugs represent no one but themselves. They rejected democracy from the beginning and missed the chance of joining the greatest election of our time. And don't forget that millions of Iraqis had also rejected those fanatics when the people marched to the boxes ignoring the threats and "fatwas"

Those who really represent me and my people are the men and women we voted for and put our trust in; men like Ibrahim Al-Jafari and Jalal Talbani who are grateful for the nations that helped Iraq in the darkest times and freed its people when our "brothers" ignored us and silently watched the Ba'ath murder and torture our people and more worse, gave the Ba'ath a hand more than once.

These are the people who represent us now; they promise us freedom and prosperity and I intend to trust them and believe them as long as they prove to be honest to us but I will never listen to those who want to bring back the rule of the dark ages.

Finally, I would like to say it again and say it loud:
Thank you our liberators.

Posted by: treehugger at April 22, 2005 2:03 AM

Shukri-

Samuel P. "Clash of Civilizations" Huntington?

Didn't Edward Said "expertly destroy" his theory?

So, whatever Sam says must be wrong.

And John Dolan (of NY Press) called him a "bigot" and a neo-"Know-Nothing".

I would think you would have gone for this Dolan quote:

"Post 9/11 America," as John LeCarre said, "has lost its mind."

(I love sweeping moronic generalizations.)

But the specific details of the fighting are immaterial. (Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, et al.)

It is what the fight is FOR that matters.

You want a theocratic tyranny. Sharia Law.

I oppose the idea. I prefer the Bill of Rights.

The fallible human concept of a 'supremely holy' and 'perfect state' run by 'God's representatives' on Earth, wielding absolute power, always always ALWAYS descends into a nightmarish terror state.

From the pharoahs to Pol Pot, with blood-soaked maniacs like Caligula, Atilla, Savonarola, Mohammad, Lenin/Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Jim Jones on the way.

I will resist this state.

Meantime...

I don't care who killed whom when and over what insult. (Helicopter pilot in a vendetta killing for already-dying [potentially booby-trapped] insurgent.)

We are battling over fundmental differences in the interpretation of the world.

I don't care if you don't like HOW it is being fought.

You only want my destruction to impose a theocratic despotism anyway.

I can't allow it.

The most effective means to stop it will be used.

As someone said:

"The Constitution is not a sucide pact."

This means: our freedoms will be defended SERIOUSLY, because we are not silly enough to allow them to be misused by the machiavellian to murder us with our own 'liberal' tools.

For all of its flaws, 'profane' liberty is infinitely desirable to the joyless mindlock of Mohammad's 'sacred slavery'.

Posted by: BigSleep at April 22, 2005 2:14 AM

smokem

I feel the same way about this Muhammad worshiping religion (cult?) Make no mistake, this is Muhammad worship where all Muslims are commanded to emulate the life of Muhammad. Which they claim is the most perfect life, a worthy model for all mankind. Allah was invented to give Mohammed's schemes a religious imprimatur where you get zapped dead if you defy Allah, the boogyman up in the sky

Posted by: dennisw at April 22, 2005 2:16 AM

Shukri-here is an opinion piece from an Iraqi living in Baghdad

Thank you for the quote, treehugger . I already read "Iraq the Model" and the countless other Iraqi blogs that are out there.

I think that it is fairly clear that many of them are collaborators(read: traitors) with Occupation forces. As such, I am unable to take their opinion as being reflective of the Iraqi people.

Samuel P. "Clash of Civilizations" Huntington?

Didn't Edward Said "expertly destroy" his theory?

So, whatever Sam says must be wrong.

Bigsleep, Not so. Though I've never read Edward Said, I can say, given all that I know about history, that Huntington's quote is dead on accurate.

I oppose the idea. I prefer the Bill of Rights.

Do you really believe that the US is fighting for a Bill of Rights in Iraq? Seriously think about that for a moment...

You only want my destruction to impose a theocratic despotism anyway

Really? How come you and not I was informed of my feelings?

I feel the same way about this Muhammad worshiping religion

We worship God, Glorious and Majestic be he. "Muhammad(peace be upon him) is but a messenger..."

Allah was invented to give Mohammed's schemes a religious imprimatur where you get zapped dead if you defy Allah, the boogyman up in the sky

Please do not take Salvation as a joke. God is not a boogyman. The whole of creation came from somewhere. It did not invent itself.

Posted by: Shukri at April 22, 2005 2:44 AM

shukri is that arabic for bullshit?

Posted by: Pegcity at April 22, 2005 2:53 AM

Shukri, if the Iranians and other Muslims want to keep trotting out the Mossadegh Affair (and how did Mossadeq's alliance with the Tudeh [Iranian Communists] look after the Soviet Union's attempts to detach southern Azerbaijan and Kordestan?), then, don't we non-Muslims have the right to keep trotting out 9/11? Or insist that the Almoravids and the Ottoman devirsme were "typical" of Islam? We can wave the bloody shirt, too.

And you didn't anwer my question of what would've happened to Iran had it pulled the hostage-taking with a major Muslim Eurasian superpower.

Posted by: Kepha at April 22, 2005 4:18 AM

Shukri, if the Iranians and other Muslims want to keep trotting out the Mossadegh Affair (and how did Mossadeq's alliance with the Tudeh [Iranian Communists] look after the Soviet Union's attempts to detach southern Azerbaijan and Kordestan?), then, don't we non-Muslims have the right to keep trotting out 9/11? Or insist that the Almoravids and the Ottoman devirsme were "typical" of Islam? We can wave the bloody shirt, too.

And you didn't anwer my question of what would've happened to Iran had it pulled the hostage-taking with a major Muslim Eurasian superpower.

Posted by: Kepha at April 22, 2005 4:18 AM

Shukri,

I have a picture taken from the BBC website of Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists doing a Nazi salute, its priceless. I look at it every so often, the same mindless stupid obediance through fear and indoctrination, their faces devoid of anything but total submission to their senseless ideology. These are the same type of people who killed a young women for walking with her husband to be on a beach, or beat a women to death in Basra for daring to eat a picnic.

This picture says it all.

Anyway to the WMD aspect, Iran is developing the ability for nuclear weapons, in doing so they become a much greater threat. Iran has a history of passing weapons and money to terrorists, so they will pass nuclear weapons to terrorists. In doing so they will bring about the destruction of Islam.

Do you remember the terms of surrender from the first Gulf war, well Saddam had failed to abide by those terms, so that is justification enough in International law.

I notice that you did not mention Europeans in your reply... Ho hum!

Posted by: Daffersd at April 22, 2005 5:21 AM

The DOD has released some dollar figures on the costs of the post-9-11 US interventions.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050421/D89K30P00.html

Those are large costs for giving 50,000,000 Iraq and Afghan savages the right to a one time vote for Islamofascism. Democracy can never be anything for Muslims but a means to their perverse Shariah ends. Nation-wrecking should have been the cause of the 9-11 massacres. Any dollar spent in indulgence of Islamofascism is aid to the mortal enemy of the West.

Posted by: smokem at April 22, 2005 5:45 AM

Shurki's back and up to his old tricks.

First off, explain how the US not having an opinion about Arab-Arab conflicts (and should they? I thought you told us that American involvement in the Middle East was a bad thing) means they "okayed war". Hunt for your links and spin as you please. Explain also how Iraq was a "puppet" of the US, since all their arms were derived from Communist nations.

This response was the best:
Geoff: It is also your (anti-Semitic) opinion that there are powerful Jewish elements trying to kill all non-Jews within Israel (and, presumably what; rule the world as well?).
Shurki: They are not really trying to kill all non-Jews. Rather they are out to subjugate them.

Thanks. You're a racist. I win.

You can now also explain how the writer of the response in the Guardian's being associated with MEMRI means anything in terms of believability. Allow me to explain: I am not associated with MEMRI, and I also write to defend them. I am third party; I am independent. Ding ding. That's two for me. I am not responsible for any brain-washing you may have acquired via religious means about the reliability of MEMRI. Again, consult with your religion, and clean it up. Don't blame MEMRI for posting your own words for everyone who doesn't speak Arabic to read. Explain what "every indication" about MEMRI's "political agenda" is. Again, your mere opinion is insufficient proof.

"If that Marine had not executed that disarmed mujahid in the mosque in Fallujah"

Disarmed? Where does it say he was disarmed? Terrorists (muhajedeen) in Iraq had for long time been employing "play-dead" tactics to lure soldiers into ambushes, as did this brave muhajedeen. What does islam say about limitations on tactics in war regarding enemy combatants, Shurki? =) If you don't play fair in war, then don't expect to be played fair too. And, as Prickzilla points out (quite rightly):

"Panties on the head and butt pyramids do not represent torture."

Your response was ludicrous: "Prickzilla, considering the depths of degradation and immorality that Western society has reached to, it is not surprising that you do not consider it to be torture."

And: "Again, I will point out that there were no beheadings in Iraq before the torture at Abu Ghraib was revealed. Similarly, the execution of this Bulgarian crew member would not have happened had that Marine not executed the Iraqi in the Fallujah mosque."

Really? Oh really? Odd - you use this, ahem, "torture" as a justification for the murder of defenceless workers and captured soldiers. How interesting. Does islam say that one should respond to being forced to wear panties by cutting off the heads of prisoners? Does islam not believe in balanced responses? How odd, Shurki. I think we're done on this line of argument. =) Although one wonders what this terrorist was doing fighting from a mosque.

I very much doubt you read any of the Iraqi blogs at all. Of course, who are you again to consider them "traitors"? Ah - because they want freedom and democracy, they must be traitors to islam. Of course. Since I consider you in fact to be a traitor, I'm afraid I can't take your opinion as particularly valid. Then again, you opine about Said without ever having read him, either.

"Do you really believe that the US is fighting for a Bill of Rights in Iraq? Seriously think about that for a moment..."

Well, let's see: installing a democratic government which will extend human rights to a people, and not only those rights which theocratic despotism might. Hmm. Yes, that would be about Rights; rights which, as you've already admitted, you would restrict based on a god for which there is no evidence. And yes - you've already admitted your "feelings" on this matter, dolt. Think about that for a moment...

"We worship God, Glorious and Majestic be he. "Muhammad(peace be upon him) is but a messenger..."

No. Q 4:80 indicates that he is a partner with Allah.

"Please do not take Salvation as a joke. God is not a boogyman. The whole of creation came from somewhere. It did not invent itself."

No, no, it's just your version of salvation that's being taken as a joke. I agree with this premise; of course, it's as much a joke on the rest of the world as it is muslims. It's not too late for you to revert to some more rational religion, though, or even no religion at all. Please visit the following site and read about the real truth:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

And actually there's numerous indications that the whole of real existence (not "creation", Shurki, as that pre-implies some supposition about the origin of such matter, thankyou) came from random events. If you care to postulate some deific boogeyman for it, you need better proof of his existence.

Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at April 22, 2005 10:19 AM

Islam = mind-numbing repetition.

Posted by: epg at April 23, 2005 1:17 AM