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When I point out that the core texts of Islam are fueling the global jihad, more than one cringing dhimmi has responded: "But you can't say that. Would you have us go to war with the entire Islamic world?" Of course I wouldn't. I would have us recognize who is at war with us, and take action accordingly. I would have us deal realistically with immigrants and the Muslim population in the USA. This would involve a forthright acknowledgment that there is no dividing line within the Muslim community between those termed "extremists" and those termed "moderates," and a call to American Muslims to renounce definitively and absolutely violent jihad and Sharia, and to back up those words of renunciation with active anti-terror deeds.
This would end the influence of groups like CAIR and people like Grover Norquist in Washington and allow us to defend ourselves much more effectively. After all, the present policy of tiptoing around the actual identity of the enemy has gained nothing: jihad leaders still claim that the US is warring against Islam, despite the Administration's best efforts to dispel this impression. "US has declared war against Islam: Fazl," from Kashar News, with thanks to Skeetstreet.
ISLAMABAD - Secretary General of the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal MMA Maulana Fazlur Rehman has said that the United States has declared an all out war against the Islamic World and its military was oppressing and terrorizing Muslims across the world.Commenting on the desecration of Holy Quran in the US military base at Gunatanamo in Cuba, Fazl added that the United States has always been targeted Islamic culture and norms while our rulers were adding salt to the wounds of Muslims by backing US policies of mocking Islamic values.
Welcoming Imran Khan for his anti-US sentiments, he hoped that Khan will support MMA policies in this regard.
He added that the incidents in Guantanamo Bay were enough to open eyes of the Muslims rulers with regard to US anti-Islamic policies that America cannot be sincere or sympathetic to Muslims...
Posted by Robert at May 9, 2005 8:59 AM
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"Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam"
If only that were true.
However, I would settle for a smaller war...say overthrowing "our friends" the Saudis. After that I might be tempted to get rid of that Saudi colony known as Pakistan.
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at May 9, 2005 9:23 AM
How come they got it right & we got it wrong?
Posted by: Terminator at May 9, 2005 9:40 AM
I wish we were at war with Islam. The sooner this religion goes down the better.
Posted by: Voltaire at May 9, 2005 9:46 AM
Robert,
Don't be rational. Use deep denial.
/conventional wisdom
Posted by: Beagle at May 9, 2005 10:08 AM
Hypocrisy alert!! Muslims arrogantly mock and disdain our values and customs. The belief that Western non-Muslims should automatically give to way to become dhimmis is a natural expectation as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others have done so over the centuries in lands that are now Muslim.
Relief offered in the form of welfare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, is just another form of jizyathat Muslims have come to expect from non-Muslims are their right. Refusal to pay always results in violence IF Muslims are in a position of strength. If they aren't, cries and complains of "discrimination," "bigotry," "racism," or "Islamophobia" are made, playing on the cultural weakness of Westerners to be seen as tolerant and fair minded, giving these Muslims and undeserved defacto power base.
Posted by: epg at May 9, 2005 10:27 AM
BRASILIA, Brazil - Ministers from 33 South American and Middle Eastern nations on Sunday began preparing the groundwork for the first-ever summit of leaders from the two regions.
Their talks could lead to a commitment to negotiations for a South American-Arab free trade zone — part of an effort to counter U.S. political and economic influence.
Brazilian media stressed Sunday that the leaders of key U.S. allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be absent.
******But Iraqi President Jalal Talabani is scheduled to attend. The United States’ request to observe the event was denied*******.
While the stated goal of the gathering is to boost economic ties, the summit will bring together leaders from countries that resent America’s forceful hand in everything from regime changes to globalization that critics say benefits only large multinational corporations.
Hugh was right about Iraqi gratitude at the nation-state level. I will now proceed to eat my overly optimistic words.
at May 9, 2005 10:36 AM
If Islam could undergo a purification ritual of the ancient and dogmatic cruelties in Muslim religious texts (Koran and Hadiths and Sharia Law)through a Reformation, there would be no need for the rest of the world to have to battle their Koran-waving extremists.
The prayer rug would be pulled out from under their homicidal urges.
Until then, the Koran is a 6,666 verse permission slip for jihadist psychopaths to wreak any havoc at any level of inhumanity and savagery -all washed clean by select suras.
We fight against the Koranic excusing of terrorist killers. (Sura 9:5, et al.)
If this IS "Islam", according to Pakistanis like Rehman, then that is their problem more than ours.
Because the West WILL be injured by it, but it shall be their doom.
Jihad IS a suicide pact- by this reading.
No 'otherworldly nihilism', looking for WMD's, can be tolerated.
Either they control themselves or it will be done for them.
at May 9, 2005 10:37 AM
This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics.
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Posted by: Foehammer at May 9, 2005 11:12 AM
Only after your Islam declared war against us, you brainless medieval scum!
Posted by: Jakester at May 9, 2005 11:31 AM
"This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics" {Quote from above]
Robert? You put the media giants to shame - and rightfully so
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 11:38 AM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
at May 9, 2005 11:44 AM
Robert..."Giant Spiders from Allah", could be a good title for a book or movie...or an article by Ann Coulter...just a thought...cheers...
at May 9, 2005 11:51 AM
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Foehammer? You are SO right! And because the people refuse to see this war as it is - cultural - [not as political as the voices of this world would like to have everyone believe]
the people are going to be confronted with an attack to the likes of none other.
I'm not talking about guns and bombs [although they are an evil part of this equation] - but I'm talking about Freedom. TRUE FREEDOM!
Islam is an enemy to Freedom. The right of a free choice to bow to God or not - is a big one.
Which leads to the most ironic situation I've ever seen: The only thing that is going to defeat Islam - is the Word of God. The Word of God says so.
Some one said:
"If you don't define your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory.
The better one understands an enemy - especially how he thinks - the more effectively one can deter him from aggression or defeat him"
Islam is the problem. Islam is a 'religion'
The mere words of men are not going to solve this problem - because allah is a god.....for real! [he's got millions bowing to him - that makes him a god]
And bombs can't weed out his followers [who want to destroy Freedom] from among a society [a tactic of Islam - It presents a temptation to resort to the same vicious tactics they use - which is murder] slaughtering any who happen to be in the way - even children.
But the Word of God CAN Weed them out - everyone single one of them - and without hurting the ones Islamic murderers use to protect themselves with - to hide behind. [making them yellow-bellied cowards]
Isn't that something? allah preaches that it is the Jews who would be hiding behind 'trees' {{{a parable in the Bible] - and in reality - it is his followers who are doing that very thing.
For you Muslims out there? your allah says this:
008.048 Remember Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you" {who does that sound like?] :
But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment."
who dose that sound like to you?
allah has never helped the Islamic nations to prosper - nor when wars - NOT against Israel has he.
The name Israel belongs to God.
and I believe that when allah sees the abomination of desolation [Palestine] standing where it ought not - your allah - will be "clear of you"
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:01 PM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
duh_swami? The Lord did tell the Truth:
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:03 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.
Everytime I see a child maimed or murdered in the name of Islam - I understand even further - that the tactics I'm using - are right - and leave me feeling no shame - as so many do today - when it comes to the Word of God.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:09 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.posted by beth
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Here is what a Muslim tossed at my yesterday.
You see the wonders and the unexplainable all around you, so then how can any sane person nit leave some room for the posibility that these things could happen.How does the heart begin to beat.
How does the earth spin.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.It is not my imagination that makes me believe these things, nor was it some conditioning, I was not born Muslim. I have seen and experienced things that you would understandably scoff at because you have not seen and experienced them. For you the entire world is contained in the limits of your mind and you have no understandind - leave no room for things spiritual.
When shown a miracle, you would only dismiss it as magic. This is what is meant by deaf, dumb and blind. Does that mean your physical senses do not work, it refers to your spiritual senses of the heart.
For this I am sorry for you. Life is a pile of dust holding no meaning in the end. How terribly sad for you. This in no way changes the Reality of things as you will come to know.
Pay attention the last sentence in bold. Does it not sound familiar? The threat of hellfire for those who haven't accept Christ or are non believers.
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Prosleytization efforts among Muslims not only come to naught, but are risky ventures with death as the frequent result.
That aside. For Robert
I wish that there was a catalog of mujahadid, mullahs, ayatollahs those who fall under the heading of ulama, that have made statements, condoning,supporting, approving Jihad or issuing fatwa's declaring jihad or declaring men who "die in the way of Allah" to be martyrs.
That might be a worthy endeavor for someone to put up on their site.
On the other hand. Is there anything in Islam similar to excommunication? I can think of a Fatwa of Kufr, of irtidad.
If the "terrorists are not true Islam" mullahs were serious, they would be issuing such fatwa's against the jihadi's/terrorists.
I've seen nothing remotely similar ever issued. Have you?
Maybe they should be prodded to issue fatwa's of kufr against terrorists, against Osama, against Zarqawi, against the GIA, the Muslim Brotherhood, against Ayman Zawhiri, against all those who wage war against and kill innocents.
The Saudis claim to have revoked Osama's passport, but I've seen no Fatwa of kufr from the Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
at May 9, 2005 12:43 PM
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Well - who should be commneded more?
Those who keep up the fight?
or those who lie down and give up?
As for the True punishment - The True Lord says Second death. The first one reigned already - from Adam to Moses} Rom 5:14
Those who rejected the words of God then - time of Moses - died without mercy} Hbr 10:28
The memory of them was forgotten - forever} Isa 26:14
It is Satan himself - who is going to get the punishment that allah preaches} Rev 20:10
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
See? God does have a sense of humor....not known to this world
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:58 PM
Prosleytization efforts
Giaour? Prosleytization efforts?
pros·e·ly·tize
To convert a person from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
I'm doing no such thing! Want to know why?
1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 1:02 PM
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Giaour? You know ...within your words I sense something - like a veiled warning?
Again - let me remind you:
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 1:07 PM
Beth
There is an old esoteric saying "The gods created the world and then they laughed". Indicating that all of existence is some kind of a perverted joke...I'm Glad that Allah or God or whoever invented humor, but more things go on that are tradgic than are funny. Buddha said that all life is sorrow...I see where he was comming from but I dont agree entirely...There are beautiful and edifying things in life...Death as the muslims seem to love, is not death at all in their minds, it is heavenly reincarnation with all it's rewards...This is reverse of mentally sane thinking...The ancient Romans had a saying..."Daemon est Dues inversus"...which basically means, that the devil/Satan is inverse or reverse of God...Thinking spiritually backwards in this way is covorting with evil...Death is the opposite of the promised "everlasting life"...These are dark forces operating and only shedding light on them will force them to retreat...Everyone has their own style of light shedding...you are doing fine, dont let anyone deter you...
at May 9, 2005 1:50 PM
If they will not reform, then the Reformation should begin without them.
And distribute the new Korans, Hadiths & Shaira Law at will to Muslim lands.
If it is all the translation of vague words (no specific vowels in Arabic writing leaves it as poetry at best, open to new visionaries to unveil anew -through a broader, deeper and more loving grasp of mere reality).
What is to stop teachers from giving their own slant?
A much more peaceful and spiritualized than the current, often too prosaic (violent) versions. Poetry, like Rumi's secret revisions of Islam in his public poems, needs a lighter touch.
A RUMI KORAN would be far nearer to what most Muslims claim they believe.
Get the blood and thunder transmuted to soul and psyche.
Turning the worm of the Qu'ran into a monarch of inspiration.
It could be done.
Any Arabic scholars with a Summer off?
Use the Tao Te Ching for a tone model.
The heart must be given a hand if it trembles.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 2:21 PM
I believe that Robert is not overly impressed with either the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terror or its leader.
However, they are having a gathering in D.C. this weekend, to demonstrate against terrorism. I'm not sure if it will be large enough a turn out to garner national news coverage or not.
While such an event won't change Secretary General Rehman's mind, I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
Does anyone have any insight into this event? Any thoughts?
Is anyone (like from the Carolina's) going?
Posted by: PRCS at May 9, 2005 2:28 PM
I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
well - I guess it depends on how much they're willing to condemn the teachings of their allah.
as long as those are around - there will be bloodshed.
But don't take my word for it.
Just remember that the next time we all witness another Beslan school attack {sickens me beyond words] or large buildings filled with people are attacked by large planes filled with people who made no agreement in being a part of their war.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 2:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?
SEE - this one is a very bad sin for Muslims:
Article. VII of the constitution of the United States of America:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America
at May 9, 2005 2:40 PM
The more accurate formulation would be: the adherents of Islam, following correctly its tenets, as expressed in the Qur'an and Hadith, and in the example of Muhammad set out in the Sira, have been making war, whenever and wherever possible, and employing whatever instruments at the time are avaiable (combat, wealth, "pen, tongue," and now demography) to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. During some long periods when Islam was weak, and the awareness of the outside world also feeble, the only kind of Jihad that was practiced against the outside world were expeditions by slavers and looters -- to Western Europe (a million whites seized, and many villages destroyed, over several centuries, Eastern Europe and Russia (several million victims, including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty), and tens of millions of black Africans, mostly young males castrated at the point of seizure, and then marched overland, and then taken often by sea for part of the journey, to the slave markets of Islam: Jeddah, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Constantinople, even as far as Ottoman-ruled Smyrna. The mortality rate was 90%.
That has been the history of Islam's relations to all non-Muslims. Conquest, destruction, slavery, demands from within the lands conquered for jizyah. It is little different today, though disguise is of the essence. The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims. The attitude which allows Muslims to demand foreign aid from Infidel states, and to act as if it is theirs by right, and must not either be stopped, or have any strings attached (see the fury of the P.A. over the American Congress's attempt to funnel aid through American aid agencies; see the Egyptian government's complacent belief that no matter what it did to help Iraqi weapons projects, no matter what nuclear projects it is up to itself, no matter how completely it ignores its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords and has become a world center of antisemitism, no matter how much anti-Americanism its people display in that most hostile of countries, it will still continue to receive, for no conceivably sensible reason, some $2 billion a year from American taxpayers, apparently helpless to prevent their government from paying what has now become a jizyah tax, just like all the others we pay to every Muslim country that does not have oil revenues).
Islam is at war with Buddhists in Thailand, and in Burma, at war with Confucians and atheists in China. It is at war with Hindus in Bangladesh, and Pakistan, and Kashmir, and India itself. It is at war with Christians in the Philippines, and in Indonesia, and in Malaysia, and in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, and in Iran, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Iraq, and in Lebanon, and in Egypt, and in Algeria. Islam is at war with whatever Jews can be found, in and out of Israel, since so very few remain, after years of persecution and murder, within the lands ruled by Muslim Arabs. Islam is at war with everyone, for Islam divides the world between Believer and Infidel. Anyone who reads, and re-reads, and then reads the commentators, and the jurisconsults, and the muhaddithin, and then looks at the history of Islamic conquest -- reading, for example, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" which is perhaps Bat Ye'or's greatest work of history -- and then looks at Muslim attitudes and behavior today, can come to only one conclusion: Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies. If some are not fervent in their Islam, we still do not know what might set off such fervency. Those who place such abstract principles as "tolerance" and "pluralism" above the reasonable need to preserve civilizations, such as our own, that first created and promoted such principles, against those who do not in truth believe in those principles and in the long run would destroy them and the civilization that developed them, are wrong. Lincoln was not the first, nor the last, to understand that in war-time, the same measures do not necessarily apply as during peace-time.
Those who see things aright, and who have taken the trouble to study Islam, know that this war can be contained, and that it need not involved large-scale military conflict. But that conflict can be avoided, across national borders, and within the borders of European nations, only if Muslim countries and groups are kept from acquiring major weaponry, or forced to disgorge what they have, and are kept from migrating in greater numbers to the West (they have little desire to go elsewhere), and those here limited in their sinister campaigns of Da'wa (in which Islam is not fully spelled out until, for the convert, he or she has already signed up for the Army of Islam), aimed first at the most marginal and therefore most vulnerable populations -- marginality defined as both economic and psychic.
Far from making war on Islam, the United States has repeatedly rescued Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, extended aid for decades to Turkey and Iran, always been prompt to offer other kinds of aid (the aid post-tsunami rushed to Aceh, the most Muslim part of Indonesia), protected Muslim Kuwait and even-more Muslim Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein (a choice that looks, in retrospect, not quite as obvously right as it once did), and continues to give aid, against its own best interests, to Pakistan (a recipient for decades of American military and political support), to Egypt, to the "Palestinian" Authority, and of course tens of billions, even hundreds of billions, have been spent to resuce the Iraqis from their own latest Lord of Misrule, and to build up the country -- all the while taking casualties because of the inability of Iraqis to do the job themselves, unable to fight for their own country though there are 25 million of them, and so very few of them capable of feeling, in the rumors and lies and crazed through-the-prism-of-Islam perceptions of the universe, any real or lasting gratitude. In Afghanistan, because of the experience with the Taliban, and the less complete, because still largely village Islam (without all that modern technology that brings the message of Islam to people in all its full malevolence), and because Afghanis are non-Arab Muslims which can be dilute the monopolization of identity by Islam (in the case of Pakistanis, for other reasons, this diluting effect of being non-Arab Muslims is not observable).
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change. They do not make the massacre of the Banu Qurayzah prisoners disappear. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan. Or the attack on the Khaybar Oasis. Or little Aisha. Or a hundred other events in Muhammad's life, Muhammad who is uswa hasana, in the Qur'anic phrase, the very model for all Muslims, for all time.
Islam makes war and calls it "peace" and "justice." From a Muslim perspective, of course, this is perfectly true. Islam brings with it a pax islamica, and the "justice" of Islam. Quite right. No Muslim should really disagree.
But those of us who have made the choice not to accept Islam, and who find that the more we discover about it, the more horrified we become (and let's face it: a few years ago, we knew almost nothing about it, and were prepared, for example, to assume that the last word on the subject might be, for the more naive, John Esposito, and at a slightly lesser level of naivete, Bernard Lewis). Now we have studied, and are trying as best we can to get others to study. It would even be nice if a few journalists, before offering their platitudes and plongitudes, at least admitted they knew little about Islam. It would be nice if the cheerleaders of the "Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations" Project in Iraq would stop to consider and even study the nature of Islam, and begin to ask themselves if Iraq is not in fact the obvious place, almost a god-given place, to exploit -- merely by leaving, for nothing more is called for -- the fissures between Arab and non-Arab Muslim, between Sunni and Shi'a. And then to concentrate on preventing the islamization of Europe (not by throwing Israel to the wolves, which is the hollow and self-defeating strategy of the Alastair-Crooke-and-Patrick-Seale variety, urged by the deplorable men now in charge of the E.U. bureacracy and foreign policy), but by waking Europeans up to the betrayal, by their own elites in the government and the press, to the long-term interests of the indigenous Infidels.
Again, this sentence is either true or false:
"The large-scale presence of Muslims within Western Europe has already made the lives of the indigneous Infidels, and non-Muslim immigratns as well, far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than they would have been without such a large-scale Muslim presence."
No one, not even those who utter such silly phrases as "but what can we do? what can we do know?" can deny the truth of that easily verifiable remark.
Verify it yourself. Talk to Europeans. Walk around the streets of European cities. Find out the cost of monitoriong Muslims, at train stations and bus stations, at metro stations and at airports, at chemical plants and at nuclear plants. At churches, and at synagogues, and at Hindu and Buddhist and Sikh temples. And parliaments. And city halls. And police stations. And fire stations. And schools, beginning with, but hardly limited to, the Jewish schools. And of course those spies in teh mosques, those wire-taps, those agents who must be paid, and the police, and the security guards, and the lawyers, and the judges, and the whole apparatus that grows and grows, only to monitor a problem that need not ever have been allowed to be created, much less be permitted to continue to grow because leadership is lacking, the articulation of the problem is seldom to be heard.
And of course, the United States must watch Western Europe carefully, and its own Infidels learn from the unhappy experience of France, and Belgium, and Germany, and England, and Spain, and...well, fill in the names yourself.
And draw the right conclusions yourself.
Posted by: Hugh at May 9, 2005 3:05 PM
Perhaps these people also have an insight on that missle that hit the Pentagon?
Ooops. It was a jihadist-commandeerd airplane. My bad.
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary at May 9, 2005 3:31 PM
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change.
Thank you Hugh! I love articles such as this!
May I post it on my site?
And would it upset you if insert Koran writings and Scriptures and my own thoughts - keeping separted you own words - of course.
If you'd rath not - I understand - perfectly!
But if you don't mind - then I'd love to take this article
Beth
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 3:36 PM
You see Hugh - I can't write like that.
But I have something else - an understanding that is different than what this world preaches - and is JUST bursting to get out of me.
Portraying it though - is another story.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 3:41 PM
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary
lols!
But I wouldn't underestimate Gary
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 3:42 PM
But I wouldn't underestimate HIM, Gary
Sheeze - my typing also is atrotious
I have a perfect excuse though
I didn't take too much time out to spend with the 'professors'. I was busy looking at other things they hate
smile
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 3:44 PM
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?"
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
THat doesn't excuse Muslims who want to supplant the Constitution with the Koran, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of Xians who wish to do the same with Darbyism.
Look at the kooks challenging evolution in Kansas.
One of the problems we have fighting the Jihadists is that we are too busy fighting "culture wars" brought by Xian extremists at home.
at May 9, 2005 6:57 PM
How does the heart begin to beat.
It gets signals from the brain.
How does the earth spin.
Conservation of angular momentum.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Maybe it can. On the other hand there is as yet, no way to objectively determine whether or not he message is real. Why should I believe the messages you claim to receive any more than "Son of Sam"?
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
Ah to the contrary, this is but one reason Islam is mired in the 17th century.
at May 9, 2005 7:05 PM
"Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing."
Plenty have, and 6 million Jews died for their beliefs 60 years ago.
THe difference between us and "them" is that when we make the ultimate sacrifice for our beliefs we don't don't take out innocent people with us.
But in radical Islam, there is no such thing as "innocent" if you're not a Muslim.
at May 9, 2005 7:08 PM
Hugh:
You have listed the huge cost of allowing muslims to live in the West. The items you havre listed, I have done so for a long time. There are though, other costs that cannot be so easily accounted. Chief among them are
1. Limiting the excercise of freedom of speech.
2. Reduce every political and social question to
one of religion.
3. Limiting the choice of travel, as more and more security measures take the fun out of air travel.
The above three are the greatest dangers, specially the first two, as they have the potential to destroy our liberal democracy.
Then there are other costs, such as the huge welfare costs. In Britain, some 33% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are unemployed. Muslims are also the chief contributors to ordinary crime, as prison populations indicate. All good jihad ofcourse in the eyes of muslims.
Then there are medical costs. Materenty wards in Britain are now full of muslim women, putting a huge burden in an already cash strapped NHS.
What to do? What to do, goes the cry. Indeed what to do. Muslims say quite boastfully that they are here to stay. In that boast they reveal something about their intention ie they know that they are here to divide and eventually destroy the kaffir kingdom, and not as normal immigrants.
What to do?
We are in a war in which every muslim is engaged in. The beleiving muslim is convinced that he gets to paradise if he wages Jihad. We are under a huge delusion if we think that any government we elect is going to wage the counter-jihad on opur behalf. Our secular societies can never acknowledge that we are in a religious war and wage war accordingly. Thus every excuse will be found to ignore everything that is written in blogs such as this and elsewhere.
We have to wage counter-jihad in much the same way as muslims are waging the Jihad. That is, evangelising, casting doubts in muslim minds, being hostile to muslim mores and customs. On the public front, to oppose any attempt by muslims to make their religious customs be a part of the public square, ie NO to mezzuen calls over speakers.
We have to make the West as hostile as possible to islamic practices.
Posted by: DP111 at May 9, 2005 7:54 PM
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
Why not leave it alone? It's fine the way it is - and has been for over 200 years.
But, until and unless the 'elite' do Crusher?
There are laws that in it that condemn the Koran's teachings.
Did you know that the U.N. sentence 3 men to life in prison for using a radio to incite killings?
http://palestinename.com/genocide.htm
So you see - crusher - the laws are already in place - BOTH nationally AND internationally.
They're just not being applied - yet.
I keep wondering how much bloodshed has to take place before they are applied.
I guess when it actually begins to touch enough leaders - then they'll move.
I say that to their utmost SHAME!
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 8:28 PM
We have to wage counter-jihad in much the same way as muslims are waging the Jihad. That is, evangelising, casting doubts in muslim minds, being hostile to muslim mores and customs. On the public front, to oppose any attempt by muslims to make their religious customs be a part of the public square, ie NO to mezzuen calls over speakers.
We have to make the West as hostile as possible to islamic practices.
DP111? And that is what is called - REALITY
Great post
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 8:31 PM
May 09, 2005
Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam
When I point out that the core texts of Islam are fueling the global jihad, more than one cringing dhimmi has responded: "But you can't say that. Would you have us go to war with the entire Islamic world?" Of course I wouldn't. I would have us recognize who is at war with us, and take action accordingly. I would have us deal realistically with immigrants and the Muslim population in the USA. This would involve a forthright acknowledgment that there is no dividing line within the Muslim community between those termed "extremists" and those termed "moderates," and a call to American Muslims to renounce definitively and absolutely violent jihad and Sharia, and to back up those words of renunciation with active anti-terror deeds.
This would end the influence of groups like CAIR and people like Grover Norquist in Washington and allow us to defend ourselves much more effectively. After all, the present policy of tiptoing around the actual identity of the enemy has gained nothing: jihad leaders still claim that the US is warring against Islam, despite the Administration's best efforts to dispel this impression. "US has declared war against Islam: Fazl," from Kashar News, with thanks to Skeetstreet.
ISLAMABAD - Secretary General of the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal MMA Maulana Fazlur Rehman has said that the United States has declared an all out war against the Islamic World and its military was oppressing and terrorizing Muslims across the world.
Commenting on the desecration of Holy Quran in the US military base at Gunatanamo in Cuba, Fazl added that the United States has always been targeted Islamic culture and norms while our rulers were adding salt to the wounds of Muslims by backing US policies of mocking Islamic values.
Welcoming Imran Khan for his anti-US sentiments, he hoped that Khan will support MMA policies in this regard.
He added that the incidents in Guantanamo Bay were enough to open eyes of the Muslims rulers with regard to US anti-Islamic policies that America cannot be sincere or sympathetic to Muslims...
Posted by Robert at May 9, 2005 08:59 AM | Email this entry | Print this entry
Comments
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US has declared war against Islam
If only...
Posted by: voletti at May 9, 2005 09:20 AM
"Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam"
If only that were true.
However, I would settle for a smaller war...say overthrowing "our friends" the Saudis. After that I might be tempted to get rid of that Saudi colony known as Pakistan.
Posted by: MJ at May 9, 2005 09:23 AM
How come they got it right & we got it wrong?
Posted by: Terminator at May 9, 2005 09:40 AM
I wish we were at war with Islam. The sooner this religion goes down the better.
Posted by: Voltaire at May 9, 2005 09:46 AM
Robert,
Don't be rational. Use deep denial.
/conventional wisdom
Posted by: Beagle at May 9, 2005 10:08 AM
Hypocrisy alert!! Muslims arrogantly mock and disdain our values and customs. The belief that Western non-Muslims should automatically give to way to become dhimmis is a natural expectation as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others have done so over the centuries in lands that are now Muslim.
Relief offered in the form of welfare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, is just another form of jizyathat Muslims have come to expect from non-Muslims are their right. Refusal to pay always results in violence IF Muslims are in a position of strength. If they aren't, cries and complains of "discrimination," "bigotry," "racism," or "Islamophobia" are made, playing on the cultural weakness of Westerners to be seen as tolerant and fair minded, giving these Muslims and undeserved defacto power base.
Posted by: epg at May 9, 2005 10:27 AM
BRASILIA, Brazil - Ministers from 33 South American and Middle Eastern nations on Sunday began preparing the groundwork for the first-ever summit of leaders from the two regions.
Their talks could lead to a commitment to negotiations for a South American-Arab free trade zone — part of an effort to counter U.S. political and economic influence.
Brazilian media stressed Sunday that the leaders of key U.S. allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be absent.
******But Iraqi President Jalal Talabani is scheduled to attend. The United States’ request to observe the event was denied*******.
While the stated goal of the gathering is to boost economic ties, the summit will bring together leaders from countries that resent America’s forceful hand in everything from regime changes to globalization that critics say benefits only large multinational corporations.
Hugh was right about Iraqi gratitude at the nation-state level. I will now proceed to eat my overly optimistic words.
Posted by: treehugger at May 9, 2005 10:36 AM
If Islam could undergo a purification ritual of the ancient and dogmatic cruelties in Muslim religious texts (Koran and Hadiths and Sharia Law)through a Reformation, there would be no need for the rest of the world to have to battle their Koran-waving extremists.
The prayer rug would be pulled out from under their homicidal urges.
Until then, the Koran is a 6,666 verse permission slip for jihadist psychopaths to wreak any havoc at any level of inhumanity and savagery -all washed clean by select suras.
We fight against the Koranic excusing of terrorist killers. (Sura 9:5, et al.)
If this IS "Islam", according to Pakistanis like Rehman, then that is their problem more than ours.
Because the West WILL be injured by it, but it shall be their doom.
Jihad IS a suicide pact- by this reading.
No 'otherworldly nihilism', looking for WMD's, can be tolerated.
Either they control themselves or it will be done for them.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 10:37 AM
This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics.
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Posted by: Foehammer at May 9, 2005 11:12 AM
Only after your Islam declared war against us, you brainless medieval scum!
Posted by: Jakester at May 9, 2005 11:31 AM
"This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics" {Quote from above]
Robert? You put the media giants to shame - and rightfully so
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 11:38 AM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:44 AM
Robert..."Giant Spiders from Allah", could be a good title for a book or movie...or an article by Ann Coulter...just a thought...cheers...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:51 AM
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Foehammer? You are SO right! And because the people refuse to see this war as it is - cultural - [not as political as the voices of this world would like to have everyone believe]
the people are going to be confronted with an attack to the likes of none other.
I'm not talking about guns and bombs [although they are an evil part of this equation] - but I'm talking about Freedom. TRUE FREEDOM!
Islam is an enemy to Freedom. The right of a free choice to bow to God or not - is a big one.
Which leads to the most ironic situation I've ever seen: The only thing that is going to defeat Islam - is the Word of God. The Word of God says so.
Some one said:
"If you don't define your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory.
The better one understands an enemy - especially how he thinks - the more effectively one can deter him from aggression or defeat him"
Islam is the problem. Islam is a 'religion'
The mere words of men are not going to solve this problem - because allah is a god.....for real! [he's got millions bowing to him - that makes him a god]
And bombs can't weed out his followers [who want to destroy Freedom] from among a society [a tactic of Islam - It presents a temptation to resort to the same vicious tactics they use - which is murder] slaughtering any who happen to be in the way - even children.
But the Word of God CAN Weed them out - everyone single one of them - and without hurting the ones Islamic murderers use to protect themselves with - to hide behind. [making them yellow-bellied cowards]
Isn't that something? allah preaches that it is the Jews who would be hiding behind 'trees' {{{a parable in the Bible] - and in reality - it is his followers who are doing that very thing.
For you Muslims out there? your allah says this:
008.048 Remember Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you" {who does that sound like?] :
But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment."
who dose that sound like to you?
allah has never helped the Islamic nations to prosper - nor when wars - NOT against Israel has he.
The name Israel belongs to God.
and I believe that when allah sees the abomination of desolation [Palestine] standing where it ought not - your allah - will be "clear of you"
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:01 PM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
duh_swami? The Lord did tell the Truth:
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:03 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.
Everytime I see a child maimed or murdered in the name of Islam - I understand even further - that the tactics I'm using - are right - and leave me feeling no shame - as so many do today - when it comes to the Word of God.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:09 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.posted by beth
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Here is what a Muslim tossed at my yesterday.
You see the wonders and the unexplainable all around you, so then how can any sane person nit leave some room for the posibility that these things could happen.
How does the heart begin to beat.
How does the earth spin.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
It is not my imagination that makes me believe these things, nor was it some conditioning, I was not born Muslim. I have seen and experienced things that you would understandably scoff at because you have not seen and experienced them. For you the entire world is contained in the limits of your mind and you have no understandind - leave no room for things spiritual.
When shown a miracle, you would only dismiss it as magic. This is what is meant by deaf, dumb and blind. Does that mean your physical senses do not work, it refers to your spiritual senses of the heart.
For this I am sorry for you. Life is a pile of dust holding no meaning in the end. How terribly sad for you. This in no way changes the Reality of things as you will come to know.
Pay attention the last sentence in bold. Does it not sound familiar? The threat of hellfire for those who haven't accept Christ or are non believers.
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Prosleytization efforts among Muslims not only come to naught, but are risky ventures with death as the frequent result.
That aside. For Robert
I wish that there was a catalog of mujahadid, mullahs, ayatollahs those who fall under the heading of ulama, that have made statements, condoning,supporting, approving Jihad or issuing fatwa's declaring jihad or declaring men who "die in the way of Allah" to be martyrs.
That might be a worthy endeavor for someone to put up on their site.
On the other hand. Is there anything in Islam similar to excommunication? I can think of a Fatwa of Kufr, of irtidad.
If the "terrorists are not true Islam" mullahs were serious, they would be issuing such fatwa's against the jihadi's/terrorists.
I've seen nothing remotely similar ever issued. Have you?
Maybe they should be prodded to issue fatwa's of kufr against terrorists, against Osama, against Zarqawi, against the GIA, the Muslim Brotherhood, against Ayman Zawhiri, against all those who wage war against and kill innocents.
The Saudis claim to have revoked Osama's passport, but I've seen no Fatwa of kufr from the Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Giaour at May 9, 2005 12:43 PM
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Well - who should be commneded more?
Those who keep up the fight?
or those who lie down and give up?
As for the True punishment - The True Lord says Second death. The first one reigned already - from Adam to Moses} Rom 5:14
Those who rejected the words of God then - time of Moses - died without mercy} Hbr 10:28
The memory of them was forgotten - forever} Isa 26:14
It is Satan himself - who is going to get the punishment that allah preaches} Rev 20:10
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
See? God does have a sense of humor....not known to this world
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:58 PM
Prosleytization efforts
Giaour? Prosleytization efforts?
pros·e·ly·tize
To convert a person from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
I'm doing no such thing! Want to know why?
1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:02 PM
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Giaour? You know ...within your words I sense something - like a veiled warning?
Again - let me remind you:
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:07 PM
Beth
There is an old esoteric saying "The gods created the world and then they laughed". Indicating that all of existence is some kind of a perverted joke...I'm Glad that Allah or God or whoever invented humor, but more things go on that are tradgic than are funny. Buddha said that all life is sorrow...I see where he was comming from but I dont agree entirely...There are beautiful and edifying things in life...Death as the muslims seem to love, is not death at all in their minds, it is heavenly reincarnation with all it's rewards...This is reverse of mentally sane thinking...The ancient Romans had a saying..."Daemon est Dues inversus"...which basically means, that the devil/Satan is inverse or reverse of God...Thinking spiritually backwards in this way is covorting with evil...Death is the opposite of the promised "everlasting life"...These are dark forces operating and only shedding light on them will force them to retreat...Everyone has their own style of light shedding...you are doing fine, dont let anyone deter you...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 01:50 PM
If they will not reform, then the Reformation should begin without them.
And distribute the new Korans, Hadiths & Shaira Law at will to Muslim lands.
If it is all the translation of vague words (no specific vowels in Arabic writing leaves it as poetry at best, open to new visionaries to unveil anew -through a broader, deeper and more loving grasp of mere reality).
What is to stop teachers from giving their own slant?
A much more peaceful and spiritualized than the current, often too prosaic (violent) versions. Poetry, like Rumi's secret revisions of Islam in his public poems, needs a lighter touch.
A RUMI KORAN would be far nearer to what most Muslims claim they believe.
Get the blood and thunder transmuted to soul and psyche.
Turning the worm of the Qu'ran into a monarch of inspiration.
It could be done.
Any Arabic scholars with a Summer off?
Use the Tao Te Ching for a tone model.
The heart must be given a hand if it trembles.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 02:21 PM
I believe that Robert is not overly impressed with either the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terror or its leader.
However, they are having a gathering in D.C. this weekend, to demonstrate against terrorism. I'm not sure if it will be large enough a turn out to garner national news coverage or not.
While such an event won't change Secretary General Rehman's mind, I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
Does anyone have any insight into this event? Any thoughts?
Is anyone (like from the Carolina's) going?
Posted by: PRCS at May 9, 2005 02:28 PM
I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
well - I guess it depends on how much they're willing to condemn the teachings of their allah.
as long as those are around - there will be bloodshed.
But don't take my word for it.
Just remember that the next time we all witness another Beslan school attack {sickens me beyond words] or large buildings filled with people are attacked by large planes filled with people who made no agreement in being a part of their war.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?
SEE - this one is a very bad sin for Muslims:
Article. VII of the constitution of the United States of America:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:40 PM
The more accurate formulation would be: the adherents of Islam, following correctly its tenets, as expressed in the Qur'an and Hadith, and in the example of Muhammad set out in the Sira, have been making war, whenever and wherever possible, and employing whatever instruments at the time are avaiable (combat, wealth, "pen, tongue," and now demography) to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. During some long periods when Islam was weak, and the awareness of the outside world also feeble, the only kind of Jihad that was practiced against the outside world were expeditions by slavers and looters -- to Western Europe (a million whites seized, and many villages destroyed, over several centuries, Eastern Europe and Russia (several million victims, including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty), and tens of millions of black Africans, mostly young males castrated at the point of seizure, and then marched overland, and then taken often by sea for part of the journey, to the slave markets of Islam: Jeddah, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Constantinople, even as far as Ottoman-ruled Smyrna. The mortality rate was 90%.
That has been the history of Islam's relations to all non-Muslims. Conquest, destruction, slavery, demands from within the lands conquered for jizyah. It is little different today, though disguise is of the essence. The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims. The attitude which allows Muslims to demand foreign aid from Infidel states, and to act as if it is theirs by right, and must not either be stopped, or have any strings attached (see the fury of the P.A. over the American Congress's attempt to funnel aid through American aid agencies; see the Egyptian government's complacent belief that no matter what it did to help Iraqi weapons projects, no matter what nuclear projects it is up to itself, no matter how completely it ignores its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords and has become a world center of antisemitism, no matter how much anti-Americanism its people display in that most hostile of countries, it will still continue to receive, for no conceivably sensible reason, some $2 billion a year from American taxpayers, apparently helpless to prevent their government from paying what has now become a jizyah tax, just like all the others we pay to every Muslim country that does not have oil revenues).
Islam is at war with Buddhists in Thailand, and in Burma, at war with Confucians and atheists in China. It is at war with Hindus in Bangladesh, and Pakistan, and Kashmir, and India itself. It is at war with Christians in the Philippines, and in Indonesia, and in Malaysia, and in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, and in Iran, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Iraq, and in Lebanon, and in Egypt, and in Algeria. Islam is at war with whatever Jews can be found, in and out of Israel, since so very few remain, after years of persecution and murder, within the lands ruled by Muslim Arabs. Islam is at war with everyone, for Islam divides the world between Believer and Infidel. Anyone who reads, and re-reads, and then reads the commentators, and the jurisconsults, and the muhaddithin, and then looks at the history of Islamic conquest -- reading, for example, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" which is perhaps Bat Ye'or's greatest work of history -- and then looks at Muslim attitudes and behavior today, can come to only one conclusion: Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies. If some are not fervent in their Islam, we still do not know what might set off such fervency. Those who place such abstract principles as "tolerance" and "pluralism" above the reasonable need to preserve civilizations, such as our own, that first created and promoted such principles, against those who do not in truth believe in those principles and in the long run would destroy them and the civilization that developed them, are wrong. Lincoln was not the first, nor the last, to understand that in war-time, the same measures do not necessarily apply as during peace-time.
Those who see things aright, and who have taken the trouble to study Islam, know that this war can be contained, and that it need not involved large-scale military conflict. But that conflict can be avoided, across national borders, and within the borders of European nations, only if Muslim countries and groups are kept from acquiring major weaponry, or forced to disgorge what they have, and are kept from migrating in greater numbers to the West (they have little desire to go elsewhere), and those here limited in their sinister campaigns of Da'wa (in which Islam is not fully spelled out until, for the convert, he or she has already signed up for the Army of Islam), aimed first at the most marginal and therefore most vulnerable populations -- marginality defined as both economic and psychic.
Far from making war on Islam, the United States has repeatedly rescued Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, extended aid for decades to Turkey and Iran, always been prompt to offer other kinds of aid (the aid post-tsunami rushed to Aceh, the most Muslim part of Indonesia), protected Muslim Kuwait and even-more Muslim Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein (a choice that looks, in retrospect, not quite as obvously right as it once did), and continues to give aid, against its own best interests, to Pakistan (a recipient for decades of American military and political support), to Egypt, to the "Palestinian" Authority, and of course tens of billions, even hundreds of billions, have been spent to resuce the Iraqis from their own latest Lord of Misrule, and to build up the country -- all the while taking casualties because of the inability of Iraqis to do the job themselves, unable to fight for their own country though there are 25 million of them, and so very few of them capable of feeling, in the rumors and lies and crazed through-the-prism-of-Islam perceptions of the universe, any real or lasting gratitude. In Afghanistan, because of the experience with the Taliban, and the less complete, because still largely village Islam (without all that modern technology that brings the message of Islam to people in all its full malevolence), and because Afghanis are non-Arab Muslims which can be dilute the monopolization of identity by Islam (in the case of Pakistanis, for other reasons, this diluting effect of being non-Arab Muslims is not observable).
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change. They do not make the massacre of the Banu Qurayzah prisoners disappear. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan. Or the attack on the Khaybar Oasis. Or little Aisha. Or a hundred other events in Muhammad's life, Muhammad who is uswa hasana, in the Qur'anic phrase, the very model for all Muslims, for all time.
Islam makes war and calls it "peace" and "justice." From a Muslim perspective, of course, this is perfectly true. Islam brings with it a pax islamica, and the "justice" of Islam. Quite right. No Muslim should really disagree.
But those of us who have made the choice not to accept Islam, and who find that the more we discover about it, the more horrified we become (and let's face it: a few years ago, we knew almost nothing about it, and were prepared, for example, to assume that the last word on the subject might be, for the more naive, John Esposito, and at a slightly lesser level of naivete, Bernard Lewis). Now we have studied, and are trying as best we can to get others to study. It would even be nice if a few journalists, before offering their platitudes and plongitudes, at least admitted they knew little about Islam. It would be nice if the cheerleaders of the "Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations" Project in Iraq would stop to consider and even study the nature of Islam, and begin to ask themselves if Iraq is not in fact the obvious place, almost a god-given place, to exploit -- merely by leaving, for nothing more is called for -- the fissures between Arab and non-Arab Muslim, between Sunni and Shi'a. And then to concentrate on preventing the islamization of Europe (not by throwing Israel to the wolves, which is the hollow and self-defeating strategy of the Alastair-Crooke-and-Patrick-Seale variety, urged by the deplorable men now in charge of the E.U. bureacracy and foreign policy), but by waking Europeans up to the betrayal, by their own elites in the government and the press, to the long-term interests of the indigenous Infidels.
Again, this sentence is either true or false:
"The large-scale presence of Muslims within Western Europe has already made the lives of the indigneous Infidels, and non-Muslim immigratns as well, far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than they would have been without such a large-scale Muslim presence."
No one, not even those who utter such silly phrases as "but what can we do? what can we do know?" can deny the truth of that easily verifiable remark.
Verify it yourself. Talk to Europeans. Walk around the streets of European cities. Find out the cost of monitoriong Muslims, at train stations and bus stations, at metro stations and at airports, at chemical plants and at nuclear plants. At churches, and at synagogues, and at Hindu and Buddhist and Sikh temples. And parliaments. And city halls. And police stations. And fire stations. And schools, beginning with, but hardly limited to, the Jewish schools. And of course those spies in teh mosques, those wire-taps, those agents who must be paid, and the police, and the security guards, and the lawyers, and the judges, and the whole apparatus that grows and grows, only to monitor a problem that need not ever have been allowed to be created, much less be permitted to continue to grow because leadership is lacking, the articulation of the problem is seldom to be heard.
And of course, the United States must watch Western Europe carefully, and its own Infidels learn from the unhappy experience of France, and Belgium, and Germany, and England, and Spain, and...well, fill in the names yourself.
And draw the right conclusions yourself.
Posted by: Hugh at May 9, 2005 03:05 PM
Perhaps these people also have an insight on that missle that hit the Pentagon?
Ooops. It was a jihadist-commandeerd airplane. My bad.
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary at May 9, 2005 03:31 PM
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change.
Thank you Hugh! I love articles such as this!
May I post it on my site?
And would it upset you if insert Koran writings and Scriptures and my own thoughts - keeping separted you own words - of course.
If you'd rath not - I understand - perfectly!
But if you don't mind - then I'd love to take this article
Beth
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:36 PM
You see Hugh - I can't write like that.
But I have something else - an understanding that is different than what this world preaches - and is JUST bursting to get out of me.
Portraying it though - is another story.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:41 PM
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary
lols!
But I wouldn't underestimate Gary
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:42 PM
But I wouldn't underestimate HIM, Gary
Sheeze - my typing also is atrotious
I have a perfect excuse though
I didn't take too much time out to spend with the 'professors'. I was busy looking at other things they hate
smile
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:44 PM
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?"
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
THat doesn't excuse Muslims who want to supplant the Constitution with the Koran, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of Xians who wish to do the same with Darbyism.
Look at the kooks challenging evolution in Kansas.
One of the problems we have fighting the Jihadists is that we are too busy fighting "culture wars" brought by Xian extremists at home.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 06:57 PM
How does the heart begin to beat.
It gets signals from the brain.
How does the earth spin.
Conservation of angular momentum.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Maybe it can. On the other hand there is as yet, no way to objectively determine whether or not he message is real. Why should I believe the messages you claim to receive any more than "Son of Sam"?
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
Ah to the contrary, this is but one reason Islam is mired in the 17th century.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 07:05 PM
"Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing."
Plenty have, and 6 million Jews died for their beliefs 60 years ago.
THe difference between us and "them" is that when we make the ultimate sacrifice for our beliefs we don't don't take out innocent people with us.
But in radical Islam, there is no such thing as "innocent" if you're not a Muslim.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 07:08 PM
Hugh:
You have listed the huge cost of allowing muslims to live in the West. The items you havre listed, I have done so for a long time. There are though, other costs that cannot be so easily accounted. Chief among them are
1. Limiting the excercise of freedom of speech.
2. Reduce every political and social question to
one of religion.
3. Limiting the choice of travel, as more and more security measures take the fun out of air travel.
The above three are the greatest dangers, specially the first two, as they have the potential to destroy our liberal democracy.
Then there are other costs, such as the huge welfare costs. In Britain, some 33% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are unemployed. Muslims are also the chief contributors to ordinary crime, as prison populations indicate. All good jihad ofcourse in the eyes of muslims.
Then there are medical costs. Materenty wards in Britain are now full of muslim women, putting a huge burden in an already cash strapped NHS.
What to do? What to do, goes the cry. Indeed what to do. Muslims say quite boastfully that they are here to stay. In that boast they reveal something about their intention ie they know that they are here to divide and eventually destroy the kaffir kingdom, and not as normal immigrants.
What to do?
We are in a war in which every muslim is engaged in. The beleiving muslim is convinced that he gets to paradise if he wages Jihad. We are under a huge delusion if we think that any government we elect is going to wage the counter-jihad on opur behalf. Our secular societies can never acknowledge that we are in a religious war and wage war accordingly. Thus every excuse will be found to ignore everything that is written in blogs such as this and elsewhere.
We have to wage counter-jihad in much the same way as muslims are waging the Jihad. That is, evangelising, casting doubts in muslim minds, being hostile to muslim mores and customs. On the public front, to oppose any attempt by muslims to make their religious customs be a part of the public square, ie NO to mezzuen calls over speakers.
We have to make the West as hostile as possible to islamic practices.
Posted by: DP111 at May 9, 2005 07:54 PM
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
Why not leave it alone? It's fine the way it is - and has been for over 200 years.
I agree.. tell the Dobsonians that.
But, until and unless the 'elite' do Crusher?
You mean revoke civil rights, that brand of judicial activism?
There are laws that in it that condemn the Koran's teachings.
One wonders how we go from what I wrote to what beth wrote.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 8:46 PM
EPG,
"The belief that Western non-Muslims should automatically give to way to become dhimmis is a natural expectation as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others have done so over the centuries in lands that are now Muslim."
Who said that and WHY?
"Relief offered in the form of welfare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, is just another form of jizya that Muslims have come to expect from non-Muslims are their right."
From 'Umar (radiyallaahu 'anhu) who said that Allaah's Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wa'sallam) said: Each of you is a guardian and is responsible for those whom he is in charge of. So the ruler is a guardian and is responsible for his subjects; a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for those under his care; a woman is a guardian of her husband's home and is responsible for those under her care; a servant is the guardian of his master's wealth and is responsible for that which he is entrusted with; and a man is the guardian of his father's wealth and is responsible fore what is under his care. So each one of you is a guardian and is responsible for what he is entrusted with.
at May 9, 2005 9:00 PM
Giaor,
"The Saudis claim to have revoked Osama's passport, but I've seen no Fatwa of kufr from the Mufti of Saudi Arabia."
I am glad you brought this up. YOu further point out why I believe that you people are so ignorant about Islam and Islamic law. First, revoking Osama's passport is a political thing. I dont think you need a fatwa for that as it was probably done by the government and not the ulema -scholars. Secondly in order for your to be a kafir, you have to commit kufr. Kufr is an act or saying, or belief in disbelief. TO say that the Quran is created by man, thats kufr, to say that alcohol is not forbidden, thats kufr. Osama maybe a bad, deviant, trouble making, fitna creating, Muslim. But it doesnt mean he is a kafir. If someone commits adultery, confesses or witnesses are brought agaisnt them, well he/she has to be executed but he is still a Muslim.
In fact what Osama bin laden has done, which is completely wrong, is what you want the Muslims to do which is declare a person or people kafirs and then make thier lives, and property ok to be taken. YOu have to establish proof against someone in order to say that they are kafir. No one on this site, not even me, has the knowledge of Islamic law to do a that.
Posted by: brownwonder at May 9, 2005 9:10 PM
Hugh,
If non Muslims in an Islamic country dont want to pay jizyah than they can pay zakat. Either way you must be. Oh and BTW, Please dont talk about espisodes in Islamic history, real or fabricated, and SHaria in the same breath without actually talking about Sharia. We all know where that comes from.
Posted by: brownwonder at May 9, 2005 9:18 PM
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
Beth: Why not leave it alone? It's fine the way it is - and has been for over 200 years.
crusher: I agree.. tell the Dobsonians that.
Beth: But, until and unless the 'elite' do Crusher?
Crusher: You mean revoke civil rights, that brand of judicial activism?
Beth: There are laws that in it that condemn the Koran's teachings.
Crusher: One wonders how we go from what I wrote to what beth wrote.
Again Crusher: You mean revoke civil rights, that brand of judicial activism?
No - not at all!
The Constitution's laws on human violations are pretty clear - and there are those who would argue even with that - BUT...
The Koran is PERFECTLY clear - in murdering all Christians who believe in the Son of God and all non-believers also.
And because the Koran is so clear - [I can give them - Again - if you like?]
The majority of the people in America will see how much it violates the U.S. Constitution.
The only thing needed - is a group of attorneys willing to take up the cause.
Oh - how the media WILL feed on it too. It will be a hot story - for sure.
Actually - the Koran leaves itself WIDE open for a class action law suit for Jews.
The Koran calls them all liars [I can give these - Again]
It calls them apes and pigs - all the while inciting vicous murder against them.
Now - we all know ''''how much the Jews Loooove money - right? [being sarcastic here] - So just imagine should any of them get such a brite idea to do so.
I do believe - they have a case - A GOOD one!
Both nationally - AND internationally!
So I don't expect that U.N. would want to take a bite of any of the mess - less they want to be taken down in the process.
Why?
Because they're the biggest preachers of their very own 'humanitaraian' laws - which are also quite clear - when it comes to inciting mass murder....an International Crime
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 9:33 PM
brownclown
your ignorant arrogance
makes me laugh, you strut and preen
like a little queen, teetering on her toes,
muddling through the mud puddles
of a barbaric arabic belief system,
trying to poke holes with a spearless spear
of ludicrous superstitions you hear
from an uneducated imam somewhere
in the the jihadi ionesphere where
no facts, no experience ever goes.
Beware of the fire in our eyes,
it's worse than the hell you fear,
my dear.
at May 9, 2005 9:45 PM
the U.N. leaders are the biggest preachers of their very own 'humanitaraian' laws - which are also quite clear - when it comes to inciting mass murder....an International Crime
The U.N. sentenced three men to life in prison:
Check this out
Men Armed 'Only With Words' Can Commit Genocide
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Betsy Pisik
Dec 2003
http://palestinename.com/genocide.htm
"You were fully aware of the power of words, and you used the radio — the medium of communication with the widest public reach to disseminate hatred and violence"
"Without a firearm, machete or any physical weapon, you caused the death of thousands of innocent civilians".
Human rights advocates praised the verdict.
How about that? The 'Human Rights' advocates praised the verdict. lols - I love it!
The Koran has a Greater Reach!...and a FAR more powerful influence then some local radio station!
That gives many non-Muslims the right to file a class-action law suit against all Islamic nations and organizations
at May 9, 2005 9:53 PM
May 09, 2005
Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam
When I point out that the core texts of Islam are fueling the global jihad, more than one cringing dhimmi has responded: "But you can't say that. Would you have us go to war with the entire Islamic world?" Of course I wouldn't. I would have us recognize who is at war with us, and take action accordingly. I would have us deal realistically with immigrants and the Muslim population in the USA. This would involve a forthright acknowledgment that there is no dividing line within the Muslim community between those termed "extremists" and those termed "moderates," and a call to American Muslims to renounce definitively and absolutely violent jihad and Sharia, and to back up those words of renunciation with active anti-terror deeds.
This would end the influence of groups like CAIR and people like Grover Norquist in Washington and allow us to defend ourselves much more effectively. After all, the present policy of tiptoing around the actual identity of the enemy has gained nothing: jihad leaders still claim that the US is warring against Islam, despite the Administration's best efforts to dispel this impression. "US has declared war against Islam: Fazl," from Kashar News, with thanks to Skeetstreet.
ISLAMABAD - Secretary General of the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal MMA Maulana Fazlur Rehman has said that the United States has declared an all out war against the Islamic World and its military was oppressing and terrorizing Muslims across the world.
Commenting on the desecration of Holy Quran in the US military base at Gunatanamo in Cuba, Fazl added that the United States has always been targeted Islamic culture and norms while our rulers were adding salt to the wounds of Muslims by backing US policies of mocking Islamic values.
Welcoming Imran Khan for his anti-US sentiments, he hoped that Khan will support MMA policies in this regard.
He added that the incidents in Guantanamo Bay were enough to open eyes of the Muslims rulers with regard to US anti-Islamic policies that America cannot be sincere or sympathetic to Muslims...
Posted by Robert at May 9, 2005 08:59 AM | Email this entry | Print this entry
Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)
US has declared war against Islam
If only...
Posted by: voletti at May 9, 2005 09:20 AM
"Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam"
If only that were true.
However, I would settle for a smaller war...say overthrowing "our friends" the Saudis. After that I might be tempted to get rid of that Saudi colony known as Pakistan.
Posted by: MJ at May 9, 2005 09:23 AM
How come they got it right & we got it wrong?
Posted by: Terminator at May 9, 2005 09:40 AM
I wish we were at war with Islam. The sooner this religion goes down the better.
Posted by: Voltaire at May 9, 2005 09:46 AM
Robert,
Don't be rational. Use deep denial.
/conventional wisdom
Posted by: Beagle at May 9, 2005 10:08 AM
Hypocrisy alert!! Muslims arrogantly mock and disdain our values and customs. The belief that Western non-Muslims should automatically give to way to become dhimmis is a natural expectation as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others have done so over the centuries in lands that are now Muslim.
Relief offered in the form of welfare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, is just another form of jizyathat Muslims have come to expect from non-Muslims are their right. Refusal to pay always results in violence IF Muslims are in a position of strength. If they aren't, cries and complains of "discrimination," "bigotry," "racism," or "Islamophobia" are made, playing on the cultural weakness of Westerners to be seen as tolerant and fair minded, giving these Muslims and undeserved defacto power base.
Posted by: epg at May 9, 2005 10:27 AM
BRASILIA, Brazil - Ministers from 33 South American and Middle Eastern nations on Sunday began preparing the groundwork for the first-ever summit of leaders from the two regions.
Their talks could lead to a commitment to negotiations for a South American-Arab free trade zone — part of an effort to counter U.S. political and economic influence.
Brazilian media stressed Sunday that the leaders of key U.S. allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be absent.
******But Iraqi President Jalal Talabani is scheduled to attend. The United States’ request to observe the event was denied*******.
While the stated goal of the gathering is to boost economic ties, the summit will bring together leaders from countries that resent America’s forceful hand in everything from regime changes to globalization that critics say benefits only large multinational corporations.
Hugh was right about Iraqi gratitude at the nation-state level. I will now proceed to eat my overly optimistic words.
Posted by: treehugger at May 9, 2005 10:36 AM
If Islam could undergo a purification ritual of the ancient and dogmatic cruelties in Muslim religious texts (Koran and Hadiths and Sharia Law)through a Reformation, there would be no need for the rest of the world to have to battle their Koran-waving extremists.
The prayer rug would be pulled out from under their homicidal urges.
Until then, the Koran is a 6,666 verse permission slip for jihadist psychopaths to wreak any havoc at any level of inhumanity and savagery -all washed clean by select suras.
We fight against the Koranic excusing of terrorist killers. (Sura 9:5, et al.)
If this IS "Islam", according to Pakistanis like Rehman, then that is their problem more than ours.
Because the West WILL be injured by it, but it shall be their doom.
Jihad IS a suicide pact- by this reading.
No 'otherworldly nihilism', looking for WMD's, can be tolerated.
Either they control themselves or it will be done for them.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 10:37 AM
This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics.
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Posted by: Foehammer at May 9, 2005 11:12 AM
Only after your Islam declared war against us, you brainless medieval scum!
Posted by: Jakester at May 9, 2005 11:31 AM
"This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics" {Quote from above]
Robert? You put the media giants to shame - and rightfully so
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 11:38 AM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:44 AM
Robert..."Giant Spiders from Allah", could be a good title for a book or movie...or an article by Ann Coulter...just a thought...cheers...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:51 AM
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Foehammer? You are SO right! And because the people refuse to see this war as it is - cultural - [not as political as the voices of this world would like to have everyone believe]
the people are going to be confronted with an attack to the likes of none other.
I'm not talking about guns and bombs [although they are an evil part of this equation] - but I'm talking about Freedom. TRUE FREEDOM!
Islam is an enemy to Freedom. The right of a free choice to bow to God or not - is a big one.
Which leads to the most ironic situation I've ever seen: The only thing that is going to defeat Islam - is the Word of God. The Word of God says so.
Some one said:
"If you don't define your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory.
The better one understands an enemy - especially how he thinks - the more effectively one can deter him from aggression or defeat him"
Islam is the problem. Islam is a 'religion'
The mere words of men are not going to solve this problem - because allah is a god.....for real! [he's got millions bowing to him - that makes him a god]
And bombs can't weed out his followers [who want to destroy Freedom] from among a society [a tactic of Islam - It presents a temptation to resort to the same vicious tactics they use - which is murder] slaughtering any who happen to be in the way - even children.
But the Word of God CAN Weed them out - everyone single one of them - and without hurting the ones Islamic murderers use to protect themselves with - to hide behind. [making them yellow-bellied cowards]
Isn't that something? allah preaches that it is the Jews who would be hiding behind 'trees' {{{a parable in the Bible] - and in reality - it is his followers who are doing that very thing.
For you Muslims out there? your allah says this:
008.048 Remember Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you" {who does that sound like?] :
But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment."
who dose that sound like to you?
allah has never helped the Islamic nations to prosper - nor when wars - NOT against Israel has he.
The name Israel belongs to God.
and I believe that when allah sees the abomination of desolation [Palestine] standing where it ought not - your allah - will be "clear of you"
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:01 PM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
duh_swami? The Lord did tell the Truth:
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:03 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.
Everytime I see a child maimed or murdered in the name of Islam - I understand even further - that the tactics I'm using - are right - and leave me feeling no shame - as so many do today - when it comes to the Word of God.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:09 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.posted by beth
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Here is what a Muslim tossed at my yesterday.
You see the wonders and the unexplainable all around you, so then how can any sane person nit leave some room for the posibility that these things could happen.
How does the heart begin to beat.
How does the earth spin.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
It is not my imagination that makes me believe these things, nor was it some conditioning, I was not born Muslim. I have seen and experienced things that you would understandably scoff at because you have not seen and experienced them. For you the entire world is contained in the limits of your mind and you have no understandind - leave no room for things spiritual.
When shown a miracle, you would only dismiss it as magic. This is what is meant by deaf, dumb and blind. Does that mean your physical senses do not work, it refers to your spiritual senses of the heart.
For this I am sorry for you. Life is a pile of dust holding no meaning in the end. How terribly sad for you. This in no way changes the Reality of things as you will come to know.
Pay attention the last sentence in bold. Does it not sound familiar? The threat of hellfire for those who haven't accept Christ or are non believers.
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Prosleytization efforts among Muslims not only come to naught, but are risky ventures with death as the frequent result.
That aside. For Robert
I wish that there was a catalog of mujahadid, mullahs, ayatollahs those who fall under the heading of ulama, that have made statements, condoning,supporting, approving Jihad or issuing fatwa's declaring jihad or declaring men who "die in the way of Allah" to be martyrs.
That might be a worthy endeavor for someone to put up on their site.
On the other hand. Is there anything in Islam similar to excommunication? I can think of a Fatwa of Kufr, of irtidad.
If the "terrorists are not true Islam" mullahs were serious, they would be issuing such fatwa's against the jihadi's/terrorists.
I've seen nothing remotely similar ever issued. Have you?
Maybe they should be prodded to issue fatwa's of kufr against terrorists, against Osama, against Zarqawi, against the GIA, the Muslim Brotherhood, against Ayman Zawhiri, against all those who wage war against and kill innocents.
The Saudis claim to have revoked Osama's passport, but I've seen no Fatwa of kufr from the Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Giaour at May 9, 2005 12:43 PM
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Well - who should be commneded more?
Those who keep up the fight?
or those who lie down and give up?
As for the True punishment - The True Lord says Second death. The first one reigned already - from Adam to Moses} Rom 5:14
Those who rejected the words of God then - time of Moses - died without mercy} Hbr 10:28
The memory of them was forgotten - forever} Isa 26:14
It is Satan himself - who is going to get the punishment that allah preaches} Rev 20:10
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
See? God does have a sense of humor....not known to this world
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:58 PM
Prosleytization efforts
Giaour? Prosleytization efforts?
pros·e·ly·tize
To convert a person from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
I'm doing no such thing! Want to know why?
1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:02 PM
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Giaour? You know ...within your words I sense something - like a veiled warning?
Again - let me remind you:
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:07 PM
Beth
There is an old esoteric saying "The gods created the world and then they laughed". Indicating that all of existence is some kind of a perverted joke...I'm Glad that Allah or God or whoever invented humor, but more things go on that are tradgic than are funny. Buddha said that all life is sorrow...I see where he was comming from but I dont agree entirely...There are beautiful and edifying things in life...Death as the muslims seem to love, is not death at all in their minds, it is heavenly reincarnation with all it's rewards...This is reverse of mentally sane thinking...The ancient Romans had a saying..."Daemon est Dues inversus"...which basically means, that the devil/Satan is inverse or reverse of God...Thinking spiritually backwards in this way is covorting with evil...Death is the opposite of the promised "everlasting life"...These are dark forces operating and only shedding light on them will force them to retreat...Everyone has their own style of light shedding...you are doing fine, dont let anyone deter you...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 01:50 PM
If they will not reform, then the Reformation should begin without them.
And distribute the new Korans, Hadiths & Shaira Law at will to Muslim lands.
If it is all the translation of vague words (no specific vowels in Arabic writing leaves it as poetry at best, open to new visionaries to unveil anew -through a broader, deeper and more loving grasp of mere reality).
What is to stop teachers from giving their own slant?
A much more peaceful and spiritualized than the current, often too prosaic (violent) versions. Poetry, like Rumi's secret revisions of Islam in his public poems, needs a lighter touch.
A RUMI KORAN would be far nearer to what most Muslims claim they believe.
Get the blood and thunder transmuted to soul and psyche.
Turning the worm of the Qu'ran into a monarch of inspiration.
It could be done.
Any Arabic scholars with a Summer off?
Use the Tao Te Ching for a tone model.
The heart must be given a hand if it trembles.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 02:21 PM
I believe that Robert is not overly impressed with either the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terror or its leader.
However, they are having a gathering in D.C. this weekend, to demonstrate against terrorism. I'm not sure if it will be large enough a turn out to garner national news coverage or not.
While such an event won't change Secretary General Rehman's mind, I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
Does anyone have any insight into this event? Any thoughts?
Is anyone (like from the Carolina's) going?
Posted by: PRCS at May 9, 2005 02:28 PM
I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
well - I guess it depends on how much they're willing to condemn the teachings of their allah.
as long as those are around - there will be bloodshed.
But don't take my word for it.
Just remember that the next time we all witness another Beslan school attack {sickens me beyond words] or large buildings filled with people are attacked by large planes filled with people who made no agreement in being a part of their war.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?
SEE - this one is a very bad sin for Muslims:
Article. VII of the constitution of the United States of America:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:40 PM
The more accurate formulation would be: the adherents of Islam, following correctly its tenets, as expressed in the Qur'an and Hadith, and in the example of Muhammad set out in the Sira, have been making war, whenever and wherever possible, and employing whatever instruments at the time are avaiable (combat, wealth, "pen, tongue," and now demography) to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. During some long periods when Islam was weak, and the awareness of the outside world also feeble, the only kind of Jihad that was practiced against the outside world were expeditions by slavers and looters -- to Western Europe (a million whites seized, and many villages destroyed, over several centuries, Eastern Europe and Russia (several million victims, including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty), and tens of millions of black Africans, mostly young males castrated at the point of seizure, and then marched overland, and then taken often by sea for part of the journey, to the slave markets of Islam: Jeddah, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Constantinople, even as far as Ottoman-ruled Smyrna. The mortality rate was 90%.
That has been the history of Islam's relations to all non-Muslims. Conquest, destruction, slavery, demands from within the lands conquered for jizyah. It is little different today, though disguise is of the essence. The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims. The attitude which allows Muslims to demand foreign aid from Infidel states, and to act as if it is theirs by right, and must not either be stopped, or have any strings attached (see the fury of the P.A. over the American Congress's attempt to funnel aid through American aid agencies; see the Egyptian government's complacent belief that no matter what it did to help Iraqi weapons projects, no matter what nuclear projects it is up to itself, no matter how completely it ignores its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords and has become a world center of antisemitism, no matter how much anti-Americanism its people display in that most hostile of countries, it will still continue to receive, for no conceivably sensible reason, some $2 billion a year from American taxpayers, apparently helpless to prevent their government from paying what has now become a jizyah tax, just like all the others we pay to every Muslim country that does not have oil revenues).
Islam is at war with Buddhists in Thailand, and in Burma, at war with Confucians and atheists in China. It is at war with Hindus in Bangladesh, and Pakistan, and Kashmir, and India itself. It is at war with Christians in the Philippines, and in Indonesia, and in Malaysia, and in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, and in Iran, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Iraq, and in Lebanon, and in Egypt, and in Algeria. Islam is at war with whatever Jews can be found, in and out of Israel, since so very few remain, after years of persecution and murder, within the lands ruled by Muslim Arabs. Islam is at war with everyone, for Islam divides the world between Believer and Infidel. Anyone who reads, and re-reads, and then reads the commentators, and the jurisconsults, and the muhaddithin, and then looks at the history of Islamic conquest -- reading, for example, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" which is perhaps Bat Ye'or's greatest work of history -- and then looks at Muslim attitudes and behavior today, can come to only one conclusion: Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies. If some are not fervent in their Islam, we still do not know what might set off such fervency. Those who place such abstract principles as "tolerance" and "pluralism" above the reasonable need to preserve civilizations, such as our own, that first created and promoted such principles, against those who do not in truth believe in those principles and in the long run would destroy them and the civilization that developed them, are wrong. Lincoln was not the first, nor the last, to understand that in war-time, the same measures do not necessarily apply as during peace-time.
Those who see things aright, and who have taken the trouble to study Islam, know that this war can be contained, and that it need not involved large-scale military conflict. But that conflict can be avoided, across national borders, and within the borders of European nations, only if Muslim countries and groups are kept from acquiring major weaponry, or forced to disgorge what they have, and are kept from migrating in greater numbers to the West (they have little desire to go elsewhere), and those here limited in their sinister campaigns of Da'wa (in which Islam is not fully spelled out until, for the convert, he or she has already signed up for the Army of Islam), aimed first at the most marginal and therefore most vulnerable populations -- marginality defined as both economic and psychic.
Far from making war on Islam, the United States has repeatedly rescued Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, extended aid for decades to Turkey and Iran, always been prompt to offer other kinds of aid (the aid post-tsunami rushed to Aceh, the most Muslim part of Indonesia), protected Muslim Kuwait and even-more Muslim Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein (a choice that looks, in retrospect, not quite as obvously right as it once did), and continues to give aid, against its own best interests, to Pakistan (a recipient for decades of American military and political support), to Egypt, to the "Palestinian" Authority, and of course tens of billions, even hundreds of billions, have been spent to resuce the Iraqis from their own latest Lord of Misrule, and to build up the country -- all the while taking casualties because of the inability of Iraqis to do the job themselves, unable to fight for their own country though there are 25 million of them, and so very few of them capable of feeling, in the rumors and lies and crazed through-the-prism-of-Islam perceptions of the universe, any real or lasting gratitude. In Afghanistan, because of the experience with the Taliban, and the less complete, because still largely village Islam (without all that modern technology that brings the message of Islam to people in all its full malevolence), and because Afghanis are non-Arab Muslims which can be dilute the monopolization of identity by Islam (in the case of Pakistanis, for other reasons, this diluting effect of being non-Arab Muslims is not observable).
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change. They do not make the massacre of the Banu Qurayzah prisoners disappear. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan. Or the attack on the Khaybar Oasis. Or little Aisha. Or a hundred other events in Muhammad's life, Muhammad who is uswa hasana, in the Qur'anic phrase, the very model for all Muslims, for all time.
Islam makes war and calls it "peace" and "justice." From a Muslim perspective, of course, this is perfectly true. Islam brings with it a pax islamica, and the "justice" of Islam. Quite right. No Muslim should really disagree.
But those of us who have made the choice not to accept Islam, and who find that the more we discover about it, the more horrified we become (and let's face it: a few years ago, we knew almost nothing about it, and were prepared, for example, to assume that the last word on the subject might be, for the more naive, John Esposito, and at a slightly lesser level of naivete, Bernard Lewis). Now we have studied, and are trying as best we can to get others to study. It would even be nice if a few journalists, before offering their platitudes and plongitudes, at least admitted they knew little about Islam. It would be nice if the cheerleaders of the "Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations" Project in Iraq would stop to consider and even study the nature of Islam, and begin to ask themselves if Iraq is not in fact the obvious place, almost a god-given place, to exploit -- merely by leaving, for nothing more is called for -- the fissures between Arab and non-Arab Muslim, between Sunni and Shi'a. And then to concentrate on preventing the islamization of Europe (not by throwing Israel to the wolves, which is the hollow and self-defeating strategy of the Alastair-Crooke-and-Patrick-Seale variety, urged by the deplorable men now in charge of the E.U. bureacracy and foreign policy), but by waking Europeans up to the betrayal, by their own elites in the government and the press, to the long-term interests of the indigenous Infidels.
Again, this sentence is either true or false:
"The large-scale presence of Muslims within Western Europe has already made the lives of the indigneous Infidels, and non-Muslim immigratns as well, far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than they would have been without such a large-scale Muslim presence."
No one, not even those who utter such silly phrases as "but what can we do? what can we do know?" can deny the truth of that easily verifiable remark.
Verify it yourself. Talk to Europeans. Walk around the streets of European cities. Find out the cost of monitoriong Muslims, at train stations and bus stations, at metro stations and at airports, at chemical plants and at nuclear plants. At churches, and at synagogues, and at Hindu and Buddhist and Sikh temples. And parliaments. And city halls. And police stations. And fire stations. And schools, beginning with, but hardly limited to, the Jewish schools. And of course those spies in teh mosques, those wire-taps, those agents who must be paid, and the police, and the security guards, and the lawyers, and the judges, and the whole apparatus that grows and grows, only to monitor a problem that need not ever have been allowed to be created, much less be permitted to continue to grow because leadership is lacking, the articulation of the problem is seldom to be heard.
And of course, the United States must watch Western Europe carefully, and its own Infidels learn from the unhappy experience of France, and Belgium, and Germany, and England, and Spain, and...well, fill in the names yourself.
And draw the right conclusions yourself.
Posted by: Hugh at May 9, 2005 03:05 PM
Perhaps these people also have an insight on that missle that hit the Pentagon?
Ooops. It was a jihadist-commandeerd airplane. My bad.
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary at May 9, 2005 03:31 PM
Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change.
Thank you Hugh! I love articles such as this!
May I post it on my site?
And would it upset you if insert Koran writings and Scriptures and my own thoughts - keeping separted you own words - of course.
If you'd rath not - I understand - perfectly!
But if you don't mind - then I'd love to take this article
Beth
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:36 PM
You see Hugh - I can't write like that.
But I have something else - an understanding that is different than what this world preaches - and is JUST bursting to get out of me.
Portraying it though - is another story.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:41 PM
Beth~ giaour is an adherent to the Dominionist nut-conspiracy theory.
Posted by: Gary
lols!
But I wouldn't underestimate Gary
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:42 PM
But I wouldn't underestimate HIM, Gary
Sheeze - my typing also is atrotious
I have a perfect excuse though
I didn't take too much time out to spend with the 'professors'. I was busy looking at other things they hate
smile
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 03:44 PM
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?"
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
THat doesn't excuse Muslims who want to supplant the Constitution with the Koran, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of Xians who wish to do the same with Darbyism.
Look at the kooks challenging evolution in Kansas.
One of the problems we have fighting the Jihadists is that we are too busy fighting "culture wars" brought by Xian extremists at home.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 06:57 PM
How does the heart begin to beat.
It gets signals from the brain.
How does the earth spin.
Conservation of angular momentum.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Maybe it can. On the other hand there is as yet, no way to objectively determine whether or not he message is real. Why should I believe the messages you claim to receive any more than "Son of Sam"?
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
Ah to the contrary, this is but one reason Islam is mired in the 17th century.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 07:05 PM
"Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing."
Plenty have, and 6 million Jews died for their beliefs 60 years ago.
THe difference between us and "them" is that when we make the ultimate sacrifice for our beliefs we don't don't take out innocent people with us.
But in radical Islam, there is no such thing as "innocent" if you're not a Muslim.
Posted by: Crusher at May 9, 2005 07:08 PM
Hugh:
You have listed the huge cost of allowing muslims to live in the West. The items you havre listed, I have done so for a long time. There are though, other costs that cannot be so easily accounted. Chief among them are
1. Limiting the excercise of freedom of speech.
2. Reduce every political and social question to
one of religion.
3. Limiting the choice of travel, as more and more security measures take the fun out of air travel.
The above three are the greatest dangers, specially the first two, as they have the potential to destroy our liberal democracy.
Then there are other costs, such as the huge welfare costs. In Britain, some 33% of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are unemployed. Muslims are also the chief contributors to ordinary crime, as prison populations indicate. All good jihad ofcourse in the eyes of muslims.
Then there are medical costs. Materenty wards in Britain are now full of muslim women, putting a huge burden in an already cash strapped NHS.
What to do? What to do, goes the cry. Indeed what to do. Muslims say quite boastfully that they are here to stay. In that boast they reveal something about their intention ie they know that they are here to divide and eventually destroy the kaffir kingdom, and not as normal immigrants.
What to do?
We are in a war in which every muslim is engaged in. The beleiving muslim is convinced that he gets to paradise if he wages Jihad. We are under a huge delusion if we think that any government we elect is going to wage the counter-jihad on opur behalf. Our secular societies can never acknowledge that we are in a religious war and wage war accordingly. Thus every excuse will be found to ignore everything that is written in blogs such as this and elsewhere.
We have to wage counter-jihad in much the same way as muslims are waging the Jihad. That is, evangelising, casting doubts in muslim minds, being hostile to muslim mores and customs. On the public front, to oppose any attempt by muslims to make their religious customs be a part of the public square, ie NO to mezzuen calls over speakers.
We have to make the West as hostile as possible to islamic practices.
Posted by: DP111 at May 9, 2005 07:54 PM
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
Why not leave it alone? It's fine the way it is - and has been for over 200 years.
But, until and unless the 'elite' do Crusher?
There are laws that in it that condemn the Koran's teachings.
Did you know that the U.N. sentence 3 men to life in prison for using a radio to incite killings?
http://palestinename.com/genocide.htm
So you see - crusher - the laws are already in place - BOTH nationally AND internationally.
They're just not being applied - yet.
I keep wondering how much bloodshed has to take place before they are applied.
I guess when it actually begins to touch enough leaders - then they'll move.
I say that to their utmost SHAME!
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 08:28 PM
We have to wage counter-jihad in much the same way as muslims are waging the Jihad. That is, evangelising, casting doubts in muslim minds, being hostile to muslim mores and customs. On the public front, to oppose any attempt by muslims to make their religious customs be a part of the public square, ie NO to mezzuen calls over speakers.
We have to make the West as hostile as possible to islamic practices.
DP111? And that is what is called - REALITY
Great post
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 08:31 PM
May 09, 2005
Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam
When I point out that the core texts of Islam are fueling the global jihad, more than one cringing dhimmi has responded: "But you can't say that. Would you have us go to war with the entire Islamic world?" Of course I wouldn't. I would have us recognize who is at war with us, and take action accordingly. I would have us deal realistically with immigrants and the Muslim population in the USA. This would involve a forthright acknowledgment that there is no dividing line within the Muslim community between those termed "extremists" and those termed "moderates," and a call to American Muslims to renounce definitively and absolutely violent jihad and Sharia, and to back up those words of renunciation with active anti-terror deeds.
This would end the influence of groups like CAIR and people like Grover Norquist in Washington and allow us to defend ourselves much more effectively. After all, the present policy of tiptoing around the actual identity of the enemy has gained nothing: jihad leaders still claim that the US is warring against Islam, despite the Administration's best efforts to dispel this impression. "US has declared war against Islam: Fazl," from Kashar News, with thanks to Skeetstreet.
ISLAMABAD - Secretary General of the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal MMA Maulana Fazlur Rehman has said that the United States has declared an all out war against the Islamic World and its military was oppressing and terrorizing Muslims across the world.
Commenting on the desecration of Holy Quran in the US military base at Gunatanamo in Cuba, Fazl added that the United States has always been targeted Islamic culture and norms while our rulers were adding salt to the wounds of Muslims by backing US policies of mocking Islamic values.
Welcoming Imran Khan for his anti-US sentiments, he hoped that Khan will support MMA policies in this regard.
He added that the incidents in Guantanamo Bay were enough to open eyes of the Muslims rulers with regard to US anti-Islamic policies that America cannot be sincere or sympathetic to Muslims...
Posted by Robert at May 9, 2005 08:59 AM | Email this entry | Print this entry
Comments
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US has declared war against Islam
If only...
Posted by: voletti at May 9, 2005 09:20 AM
"Pakistani jihadist leader: US has declared war against Islam"
If only that were true.
However, I would settle for a smaller war...say overthrowing "our friends" the Saudis. After that I might be tempted to get rid of that Saudi colony known as Pakistan.
Posted by: MJ at May 9, 2005 09:23 AM
How come they got it right & we got it wrong?
Posted by: Terminator at May 9, 2005 09:40 AM
I wish we were at war with Islam. The sooner this religion goes down the better.
Posted by: Voltaire at May 9, 2005 09:46 AM
Robert,
Don't be rational. Use deep denial.
/conventional wisdom
Posted by: Beagle at May 9, 2005 10:08 AM
Hypocrisy alert!! Muslims arrogantly mock and disdain our values and customs. The belief that Western non-Muslims should automatically give to way to become dhimmis is a natural expectation as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and others have done so over the centuries in lands that are now Muslim.
Relief offered in the form of welfare, Medicaide, Foodstamps, is just another form of jizyathat Muslims have come to expect from non-Muslims are their right. Refusal to pay always results in violence IF Muslims are in a position of strength. If they aren't, cries and complains of "discrimination," "bigotry," "racism," or "Islamophobia" are made, playing on the cultural weakness of Westerners to be seen as tolerant and fair minded, giving these Muslims and undeserved defacto power base.
Posted by: epg at May 9, 2005 10:27 AM
BRASILIA, Brazil - Ministers from 33 South American and Middle Eastern nations on Sunday began preparing the groundwork for the first-ever summit of leaders from the two regions.
Their talks could lead to a commitment to negotiations for a South American-Arab free trade zone — part of an effort to counter U.S. political and economic influence.
Brazilian media stressed Sunday that the leaders of key U.S. allies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be absent.
******But Iraqi President Jalal Talabani is scheduled to attend. The United States’ request to observe the event was denied*******.
While the stated goal of the gathering is to boost economic ties, the summit will bring together leaders from countries that resent America’s forceful hand in everything from regime changes to globalization that critics say benefits only large multinational corporations.
Hugh was right about Iraqi gratitude at the nation-state level. I will now proceed to eat my overly optimistic words.
Posted by: treehugger at May 9, 2005 10:36 AM
If Islam could undergo a purification ritual of the ancient and dogmatic cruelties in Muslim religious texts (Koran and Hadiths and Sharia Law)through a Reformation, there would be no need for the rest of the world to have to battle their Koran-waving extremists.
The prayer rug would be pulled out from under their homicidal urges.
Until then, the Koran is a 6,666 verse permission slip for jihadist psychopaths to wreak any havoc at any level of inhumanity and savagery -all washed clean by select suras.
We fight against the Koranic excusing of terrorist killers. (Sura 9:5, et al.)
If this IS "Islam", according to Pakistanis like Rehman, then that is their problem more than ours.
Because the West WILL be injured by it, but it shall be their doom.
Jihad IS a suicide pact- by this reading.
No 'otherworldly nihilism', looking for WMD's, can be tolerated.
Either they control themselves or it will be done for them.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 10:37 AM
This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics.
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Posted by: Foehammer at May 9, 2005 11:12 AM
Only after your Islam declared war against us, you brainless medieval scum!
Posted by: Jakester at May 9, 2005 11:31 AM
"This is a very importan point that is not discussed nearly enough in the mainstream media. Thanks again Robert for having the good sense and will to bring up these hard topics" {Quote from above]
Robert? You put the media giants to shame - and rightfully so
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 11:38 AM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:44 AM
Robert..."Giant Spiders from Allah", could be a good title for a book or movie...or an article by Ann Coulter...just a thought...cheers...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 11:51 AM
So, so many people refuse to accept that this is a cultural war like no other perhaps in history. It will not go away until we start to be honest about the real roots of the threat and the intention of our enemies.
Islam should reform, but can it? Can we afford to wait? At what cost?
Foehammer? You are SO right! And because the people refuse to see this war as it is - cultural - [not as political as the voices of this world would like to have everyone believe]
the people are going to be confronted with an attack to the likes of none other.
I'm not talking about guns and bombs [although they are an evil part of this equation] - but I'm talking about Freedom. TRUE FREEDOM!
Islam is an enemy to Freedom. The right of a free choice to bow to God or not - is a big one.
Which leads to the most ironic situation I've ever seen: The only thing that is going to defeat Islam - is the Word of God. The Word of God says so.
Some one said:
"If you don't define your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory.
The better one understands an enemy - especially how he thinks - the more effectively one can deter him from aggression or defeat him"
Islam is the problem. Islam is a 'religion'
The mere words of men are not going to solve this problem - because allah is a god.....for real! [he's got millions bowing to him - that makes him a god]
And bombs can't weed out his followers [who want to destroy Freedom] from among a society [a tactic of Islam - It presents a temptation to resort to the same vicious tactics they use - which is murder] slaughtering any who happen to be in the way - even children.
But the Word of God CAN Weed them out - everyone single one of them - and without hurting the ones Islamic murderers use to protect themselves with - to hide behind. [making them yellow-bellied cowards]
Isn't that something? allah preaches that it is the Jews who would be hiding behind 'trees' {{{a parable in the Bible] - and in reality - it is his followers who are doing that very thing.
For you Muslims out there? your allah says this:
008.048 Remember Satan made their sinful acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you" {who does that sound like?] :
But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment."
who dose that sound like to you?
allah has never helped the Islamic nations to prosper - nor when wars - NOT against Israel has he.
The name Israel belongs to God.
and I believe that when allah sees the abomination of desolation [Palestine] standing where it ought not - your allah - will be "clear of you"
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:01 PM
At war with Islam? Then howcomezit, we dont nuke Mecca and get it over with? What a wierd war we are waging, Geo Bush holds hands with an evil dude...The gov keeps letting who knows what across the US borders...and we give financial and military aid to some Islamic controlled country's or people. Do we see tanks rolling in Islamic communities in the US? Do we see Military assaults on US mosques? Now we know that stuff is a crock, dont we...but Fasl's audience probably believes it...they also believed that giant spiders from Allah attacked US troops in Iraq...These people are dangerous...
duh_swami? The Lord did tell the Truth:
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:03 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.
Everytime I see a child maimed or murdered in the name of Islam - I understand even further - that the tactics I'm using - are right - and leave me feeling no shame - as so many do today - when it comes to the Word of God.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:09 PM
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
The True God uses wisdom to win - not bombs.
This is a battle of words between the gods and God.
And we can take part in it - if we want.
God does not force anyone into it.posted by beth
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Here is what a Muslim tossed at my yesterday.
You see the wonders and the unexplainable all around you, so then how can any sane person nit leave some room for the posibility that these things could happen.
How does the heart begin to beat.
How does the earth spin.
How do we accept that a radio can pick up invisible transmissions but the ultra sophisticated mind can not.
Ah, to the contrary, the one that places things into such tiny limits is the real fool.
It is not my imagination that makes me believe these things, nor was it some conditioning, I was not born Muslim. I have seen and experienced things that you would understandably scoff at because you have not seen and experienced them. For you the entire world is contained in the limits of your mind and you have no understandind - leave no room for things spiritual.
When shown a miracle, you would only dismiss it as magic. This is what is meant by deaf, dumb and blind. Does that mean your physical senses do not work, it refers to your spiritual senses of the heart.
For this I am sorry for you. Life is a pile of dust holding no meaning in the end. How terribly sad for you. This in no way changes the Reality of things as you will come to know.
Pay attention the last sentence in bold. Does it not sound familiar? The threat of hellfire for those who haven't accept Christ or are non believers.
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Prosleytization efforts among Muslims not only come to naught, but are risky ventures with death as the frequent result.
That aside. For Robert
I wish that there was a catalog of mujahadid, mullahs, ayatollahs those who fall under the heading of ulama, that have made statements, condoning,supporting, approving Jihad or issuing fatwa's declaring jihad or declaring men who "die in the way of Allah" to be martyrs.
That might be a worthy endeavor for someone to put up on their site.
On the other hand. Is there anything in Islam similar to excommunication? I can think of a Fatwa of Kufr, of irtidad.
If the "terrorists are not true Islam" mullahs were serious, they would be issuing such fatwa's against the jihadi's/terrorists.
I've seen nothing remotely similar ever issued. Have you?
Maybe they should be prodded to issue fatwa's of kufr against terrorists, against Osama, against Zarqawi, against the GIA, the Muslim Brotherhood, against Ayman Zawhiri, against all those who wage war against and kill innocents.
The Saudis claim to have revoked Osama's passport, but I've seen no Fatwa of kufr from the Mufti of Saudi Arabia.
Posted by: Giaour at May 9, 2005 12:43 PM
Beth you mean well, but in vain. I'm in argument, elsewheres daily with Muslims, and they say the very same thing to me. I get Pascals Wager thrown at me by Muslims as well, threatened with hellfire and damnation>
Well - who should be commneded more?
Those who keep up the fight?
or those who lie down and give up?
As for the True punishment - The True Lord says Second death. The first one reigned already - from Adam to Moses} Rom 5:14
Those who rejected the words of God then - time of Moses - died without mercy} Hbr 10:28
The memory of them was forgotten - forever} Isa 26:14
It is Satan himself - who is going to get the punishment that allah preaches} Rev 20:10
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
See? God does have a sense of humor....not known to this world
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 12:58 PM
Prosleytization efforts
Giaour? Prosleytization efforts?
pros·e·ly·tize
To convert a person from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
I'm doing no such thing! Want to know why?
1Jo 2:27 ye need not that any man teach you
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:02 PM
Muslims are even more assured in their Allah than Christians are in their god. How many Christians will commit suicide in the way of Jesus. Muslims don't fear death, fearing death is a Judeo Christian thing.
Giaour? You know ...within your words I sense something - like a veiled warning?
Again - let me remind you:
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 01:07 PM
Beth
There is an old esoteric saying "The gods created the world and then they laughed". Indicating that all of existence is some kind of a perverted joke...I'm Glad that Allah or God or whoever invented humor, but more things go on that are tradgic than are funny. Buddha said that all life is sorrow...I see where he was comming from but I dont agree entirely...There are beautiful and edifying things in life...Death as the muslims seem to love, is not death at all in their minds, it is heavenly reincarnation with all it's rewards...This is reverse of mentally sane thinking...The ancient Romans had a saying..."Daemon est Dues inversus"...which basically means, that the devil/Satan is inverse or reverse of God...Thinking spiritually backwards in this way is covorting with evil...Death is the opposite of the promised "everlasting life"...These are dark forces operating and only shedding light on them will force them to retreat...Everyone has their own style of light shedding...you are doing fine, dont let anyone deter you...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 9, 2005 01:50 PM
If they will not reform, then the Reformation should begin without them.
And distribute the new Korans, Hadiths & Shaira Law at will to Muslim lands.
If it is all the translation of vague words (no specific vowels in Arabic writing leaves it as poetry at best, open to new visionaries to unveil anew -through a broader, deeper and more loving grasp of mere reality).
What is to stop teachers from giving their own slant?
A much more peaceful and spiritualized than the current, often too prosaic (violent) versions. Poetry, like Rumi's secret revisions of Islam in his public poems, needs a lighter touch.
A RUMI KORAN would be far nearer to what most Muslims claim they believe.
Get the blood and thunder transmuted to soul and psyche.
Turning the worm of the Qu'ran into a monarch of inspiration.
It could be done.
Any Arabic scholars with a Summer off?
Use the Tao Te Ching for a tone model.
The heart must be given a hand if it trembles.
Posted by: BigSleep at May 9, 2005 02:21 PM
I believe that Robert is not overly impressed with either the Free Muslim Coalition Against Terror or its leader.
However, they are having a gathering in D.C. this weekend, to demonstrate against terrorism. I'm not sure if it will be large enough a turn out to garner national news coverage or not.
While such an event won't change Secretary General Rehman's mind, I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
Does anyone have any insight into this event? Any thoughts?
Is anyone (like from the Carolina's) going?
Posted by: PRCS at May 9, 2005 02:28 PM
I wonder if it will have a positive impact on American Muslims.
well - I guess it depends on how much they're willing to condemn the teachings of their allah.
as long as those are around - there will be bloodshed.
But don't take my word for it.
Just remember that the next time we all witness another Beslan school attack {sickens me beyond words] or large buildings filled with people are attacked by large planes filled with people who made no agreement in being a part of their war.
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:37 PM
By the way...
Why are the called "American Muslims" ?
Do the Catholics say the same?
Protestants?
Baptists?
and so on
Why are Muslims making that difference?
Is it because their allah's constitution is held up higher than the Constitution of the United States? thereby not provoking allah?
SEE - this one is a very bad sin for Muslims:
Article. VII of the constitution of the United States of America:
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 02:40 PM
The more accurate formulation would be: the adherents of Islam, following correctly its tenets, as expressed in the Qur'an and Hadith, and in the example of Muhammad set out in the Sira, have been making war, whenever and wherever possible, and employing whatever instruments at the time are avaiable (combat, wealth, "pen, tongue," and now demography) to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. During some long periods when Islam was weak, and the awareness of the outside world also feeble, the only kind of Jihad that was practiced against the outside world were expeditions by slavers and looters -- to Western Europe (a million whites seized, and many villages destroyed, over several centuries, Eastern Europe and Russia (several million victims, including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty), and tens of millions of black Africans, mostly young males castrated at the point of seizure, and then marched overland, and then taken often by sea for part of the journey, to the slave markets of Islam: Jeddah, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Constantinople, even as far as Ottoman-ruled Smyrna. The mortality rate was 90%.
That has been the history of Islam's relations to all non-Muslims. Conquest, destruction, slavery, demands from within the lands conquered for jizyah. It is little different today, though disguise is of the essence. The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims. The attitude which allows Muslims to demand foreign aid from Infidel states, and to act as if it is theirs by right, and must not either be stopped, or have any strings attached (see the fury of the P.A. over the American Congress's attempt to funnel aid through American aid agencies; see the Egyptian government's complacent belief that no matter what it did to help Iraqi weapons projects, no matter what nuclear projects it is up to itself, no matter how completely it ignores its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords and has become a world center of antisemitism, no matter how much anti-Americanism its people display in that most hostile of countries, it will still continue to receive, for no conceivably sensible reason, some $2 billion a year from American taxpayers, apparently helpless to prevent their government from paying what has now become a jizyah tax, just like all the others we pay to every Muslim country that does not have oil revenues).
Islam is at war with Buddhists in Thailand, and in Burma, at war with Confucians and atheists in China. It is at war with Hindus in Bangladesh, and Pakistan, and Kashmir, and India itself. It is at war with Christians in the Philippines, and in Indonesia, and in Malaysia, and in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, and in Iran, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Iraq, and in Lebanon, and in Egypt, and in Algeria. Islam is at war with whatever Jews can be found, in and out of Israel, since so very few remain, after years of persecution and murder, within the lands ruled by Muslim Arabs. Islam is at war with everyone, for Islam divides the world between Believer and Infidel. Anyone who reads, and re-reads, and then reads the commentators, and the jurisconsults, and the muhaddithin, and then looks at the history of Islamic conquest -- reading, for example, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" which is perhaps Bat Ye'or's greatest work of history -- and then looks at Muslim attitudes and behavior today, can come to only one conclusion: Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies. If some are not fervent in their Islam, we still do not know what might set off such fervency. Those who place such abstract principles as "tolerance" and "pluralism" above the reasonable need to preserve civilizations, such as our own, that first created and promoted such principles, against those who do not in truth believe in those principles and in the long run would destroy them and the civilization that developed them, are wrong. Lincoln was not the first, nor the last, to understand that in war-time, the same measures do not necessarily apply as during peace-time.
Those who see things aright, and who have taken the trouble to study Islam, know that this war can be contained, and that it need not involved large-scale military conflict. But that conflict can be avoided, across national borders, and within the borders of European natio
Posted by: Susanp at May 9, 2005 10:50 PM
hmmm...I keep posting these - but they keep disappearing.
Unless Robert or Rebecca asks me to stop - I'll keep posting it
Beth there are plenty of Geebu$ freaks in this country, like James Dobson and his minions who wish to supplant the Constitution with their "Sharia" version of Christianity. Google "Christian Reconstructionists" or " Christian Dominionism".
Beth: Why not leave it alone? It's fine the way it is - and has been for over 200 years.
crusher: I agree.. tell the Dobsonians that.
Beth: But, until and unless the 'elite' do Crusher?
Crusher: You mean revoke civil rights, that brand of judicial activism?
Beth: There are laws that in it that condemn the Koran's teachings.
Crusher: One wonders how we go from what I wrote to what beth wrote.
Again Crusher: You mean revoke civil rights, that brand of judicial activism?
No - not at all!
The Constitution's laws on human violations are pretty clear - and there are those who would argue even with that - BUT...
The Koran is PERFECTLY clear - in murdering all Christians who believe in the Son of God and all non-believers also.
And because the Koran is so clear - [I can give them - Again - if you like?]
The majority of the people in America will see how much it violates the U.S. Constitution.
The only thing needed - is a group of attorneys willing to take up the cause.
Oh - how the media WILL feed on it too. It will be a hot story - for sure.
Actually - the Koran leaves itself WIDE open for a class action law suit for Jews.
The Koran calls them all liars [I can give these - Again]
It calls them apes and pigs - all the while inciting vicous murder against them.
Now - we all know ''''how much the Jews Loooove money - right? [being sarcastic here] - So just imagine should any of them get such a brite idea to do so.
I do believe - they have a case - A GOOD one!
Both nationally - AND internationally!
So I don't expect that U.N. would want to take a bite of any of the mess - less they want to be taken down in the process.
Why?
Because they're the biggest preachers of their very own 'humanitaraian' laws - which are also quite clear - when it comes to inciting mass murder....an International Crime
Check this out:
The U.N. sentenced three men to life in prison:
Men Armed 'Only With Words' Can Commit Genocide
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Betsy Pisik
Dec 2003
http://palestinename.com/genocide.htm
"You were fully aware of the power of words, and you used the radio — the medium of communication with the widest public reach to disseminate hatred and violence"
"Without a firearm, machete or any physical weapon, you caused the death of thousands of innocent civilians".
Human rights advocates praised the verdict.
How about that? The 'Human Rights' advocates praised the verdict. lols - I love it!
The Koran has a Greater Reach!...and a FAR more powerful influence then some local radio station!
That gives many non-Muslims the right to file a class-action law suit against all Islamic nations and organizations.
But I think it better to come to the conclusion that the cultures separate.
It's the ONLY solution
Mat 25:32 Before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another
Posted by: Beth at May 9, 2005 11:26 PM
.
Posted by: dennisw at May 10, 2005 7:29 PM
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