Jihad Watch: Fitzgerald: Are we at war with Islam?

May 10, 2005

Fitzgerald: Are we at war with Islam?

Jihad Watch's Hugh Fitzgerald considers the common claim by Muslim leaders that the West is at war with Islam:

The more accurate formulation would be: the adherents of Islam, following correctly its tenets, as expressed in the Qur'an and Hadith, and in the example of Muhammad set out in the Sira, have been making war, whenever and wherever possible, and employing whatever instruments at the time are available (combat, wealth, "pen, tongue," and now demography) to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. During some long periods when Islam was weak, and the awareness of the outside world also feeble, the only kind of Jihad that was practiced against the outside world were expeditions by slavers and looters to Western Europe (a million whites seized, and many villages destroyed, over several centuries, Eastern Europe and Russia -- several million victims, including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty), and to Africa (tens of millions of black Africans, mostly young males castrated at the point of seizure, and then marched overland, and then taken often by sea for part of the journey, to the slave markets of Islam: Jeddah, Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Baghdad, Algiers, Constantinople, even as far as Ottoman-ruled Smyrna). The mortality rate was 90%.
That has been the history of Islam's relations to all non-Muslims. Conquest, destruction, slavery, demands from within the lands conquered for jizyah. It is little different today, though disguise is of the essence. The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims. Yet Muslims now demand foreign aid from Infidel states, and act as if it is theirs by right and must not either be stopped or have any strings attached to it: see the fury of the P.A. over the American Congress's attempt to funnel aid through American aid agencies; see the Egyptian government's complacent belief that no matter what it did to secretly help Iraqi weapons projects, no matter what nuclear projects it is up to itself, no matter how completely it ignores its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords, and becomes instead a world center of antisemitism, no matter how much anti-Americanism its people display in that most hostile of countries, it will still continue to receive, for no conceivably sensible reason, some $2 billion a year from American taxpayers, apparently helpless to prevent their government from paying what has now become a jizyah tax, just like all the others we pay to every Muslim country that does not have oil revenues.

Islam is at war with Buddhists in Thailand and in Burma, and at war with Confucians and atheists in China. It is at war with Hindus in Bangladesh, and Pakistan, and Kashmir, and India itself. It is at war with Christians in the Philippines, and in Indonesia, and in Malaysia, and in Bangladesh, and in Pakistan, and in Iran, and in Saudi Arabia, and in Iraq, and in Lebanon, and in Egypt, and in Algeria. Islam is at war with whatever Jews can be found, in and out of Israel, since so very few remain, after years of persecution and murder, within the lands ruled by Muslim Arabs. Islam is at war with everyone, for Islam divides the world between Believer and Infidel. Anyone who reads and re-reads the Qur’an, and then reads the commentators, and the jurisconsults, and the muhaddithin, and then looks at the history of Islamic conquest -- reading, for example, "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" which is perhaps Bat Ye'or's greatest work of history -- and then looks at Muslim attitudes and behavior today, can come to only one conclusion: Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies. If some are not fervent in their Islam, we still do not know what might set off such fervency. Those who place such abstract principles as "tolerance" and "pluralism" above the reasonable need to preserve civilizations, such as our own, which first created and promoted such principles, against those who do not in truth believe in those principles and in the long run would destroy them and the civilization that developed them, are wrong. Lincoln was not the first, nor the last, to understand that in war-time, the same measures do not necessarily apply as during peace-time.
Those who see things aright, and who have taken the trouble to study Islam, know that this war can be contained, and that it need not involved large-scale military conflict. But that conflict can be avoided, across national borders, and within the borders of European nations, only if Muslim countries and groups are kept from acquiring major weaponry, or forced to disgorge what they have, and are kept from migrating in greater numbers to the West (they have little desire to go elsewhere), and those here limited in their sinister campaigns of Da'wa (in which Islam is not fully spelled out until, for the convert, he or she has already signed up for the Army of Islam), which are aimed first at the most marginal and therefore most vulnerable populations -- marginality defined as both economic and psychic.

Far from making war on Islam, the United States has repeatedly rescued Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, extended aid for decades to Turkey and Iran, always been prompt to offer other kinds of aid (the aid post-tsunami rushed to Aceh, the most Muslim part of Indonesia), protected Muslim Kuwait and even-more Muslim Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein (a choice that looks, in retrospect, not quite as obviously right as it once did), and continues to give aid, against its own best interests, to Pakistan (a recipient for decades of American military and political support), to Egypt, and to the "Palestinian" Authority. And of course tens of billions, even hundreds of billions, have been spent to rescue the Iraqis from their own latest Lord of Misrule, and to build up the country -- all the while taking casualties because of the inability of Iraqis to do the job themselves. They are unable to fight for their own country though there are 25 million of them. So very few of them capable of feeling, among the rumors and lies and crazed through-the-prism-of-Islam perceptions of the universe, any real or lasting gratitude to American infidels - precisely because they are infidels.

Muslims make war, with or without military means, because Islam itself is suffused with a war-like and aggressive doctrine. Refusal to see this does not make the doctrine go away. Imaginary "Muslim moderates" who are then imagined to be a "majority" do not make the texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira change. They do not make the massacre of the Banu Qurayzah prisoners disappear. Or the assassination of Asma bint Marwan. Or the attack on the Khaybar Oasis. Or little Aisha. Or a hundred other events in Muhammad's life, Muhammad who is uswa hasana, in the Qur'anic phrase, the very model for all Muslims, for all time.

Islam makes war and calls it "peace" and "justice." From a Muslim perspective, of course, this is perfectly true. Islam brings with it a pax islamica, and the "justice" of Islam. Quite right. No Muslim should really disagree.

But those of us who have made the choice not to accept Islam, and who find that the more we discover about it, the more horrified we become (and let's face it: a few years ago, we knew almost nothing about it, and were prepared, for example, to assume that the last word on the subject might be, for the more naive, John Esposito, and at a slightly lesser level of naivete, Bernard Lewis). Now we have studied, and are trying as best we can to get others to study. It would even be nice if a few journalists, before offering their platitudes and plongitudes, at least admitted they knew little about Islam. It would be nice if the cheerleaders of the "Light-Unto-the-Muslim-Nations" Project in Iraq would stop to consider and even study the nature of Islam, and begin to ask themselves if Iraq is not in fact the obvious place, almost a god-given place, to exploit -- merely by leaving, for nothing more is called for -- the fissures between Arab and non-Arab Muslim, between Sunni and Shi'a. And then to concentrate on preventing the islamization of Europe -- not by throwing Israel to the wolves, which is the hollow and self-defeating strategy of the Alastair-Crooke-and-Patrick-Seale variety, urged on by the deplorable men now in charge of the E.U. bureaucracy and foreign policy, but by waking Europeans up to the betrayal, by their own elites in the government and the press, of the long-term interests of the indigenous Infidels.

Again, this sentence is either true or false:

"The large-scale presence of Muslims within Western Europe has already made the lives of the indigneous Infidels, and non-Muslim immigrants as well, far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically dangerous than they would have been without such a large-scale Muslim presence."

No one, not even those who utter such silly and despairing phrases as "but what can we do? what can we do now?" can deny the truth of that easily verifiable remark.

Verify it yourself. Talk to Europeans. Walk around the streets of European cities. Find out the cost of monitoring Muslims, at train stations and bus stations, at metro stations and at airports, at chemical plants and at nuclear plants. At churches, and at synagogues, and at Hindu and Buddhist and Sikh temples. And parliaments. And city halls. And police stations. And fire stations. And schools, beginning with, but hardly limited to, the Jewish schools. And of course those spies in the mosques, those wire-taps, those agents who must be paid, and the police, and the security guards, and the lawyers, and the judges, and the whole apparatus that grows and grows, only to monitor a problem that need not ever have been allowed to be created, much less be permitted to continue to grow because leadership is lacking, the articulation of the problem is seldom to be heard.

And of course, the United States must watch Western Europe carefully, and its own Infidels learn from the unhappy experience of France, and Belgium, and Germany, and England, and Spain, and...well, fill in the names yourself.

And draw the right conclusions yourself.

Posted by Robert at May 10, 2005 7:55 AM
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Comments
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`The Bumiputra system used against Hindus and Chinese in Malaysia is simply a disguised jizya tax by the Malaysian Muslims.`

Meanwhile what have the Malays (muslims) themselves got to show but by their own admission:

`She said the Malays are "champions" where incest, rapes, murder, drugs abuse, infant discard and prostitution, among others, are concerned.`

http://www.malaysia-today.net/Blog-e/2005/05/stop-becoming-champions-of-vices.htm

Posted by: hutchrun

at May 10, 2005 8:08 AM

May 10, 2005
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
DO YOU REMEMBER I DO!!
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
September 20, 2001
Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
United States Capitol
Washington, D.C.

THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Speaker, Mr. President Pro Tempore, members of Congress, and fellow Americans:
In the normal course of events, Presidents come to this chamber to report on the state of the Union. Tonight, no such report is needed. It has already been delivered by the American people.
We have seen it in the courage of passengers, who rushed terrorists to save others on the ground -- passengers like an exceptional man named Todd Beamer. And would you please help me to welcome his wife, Lisa Beamer, here tonight. (Applause.)
We have seen the state of our Union in the endurance of rescuers, working past exhaustion. We have seen the unfurling of flags, the lighting of candles, the giving of blood, the saying of prayers -- in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. We have seen the decency of a loving and giving people who have made the grief of strangers their own.
My fellow citizens, for the last nine days, the entire world has seen for itself the state of our Union -- and it is strong. (Applause.)
Tonight we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger, and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice, or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. (Applause.)
I thank the Congress for its leadership at such an important time. All of America was touched on the evening of the tragedy to see Republicans and Democrats joined together on the steps of this Capitol, singing "God Bless America." And you did more than sing; you acted, by delivering $40 billion to rebuild our communities and meet the needs of our military.
Speaker Hastert, Minority Leader Gephardt, Majority Leader Daschle and Senator Lott, I thank you for your friendship, for your leadership and for your service to our country. (Applause.)
And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.
We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.
Nor will we forget the citizens of 80 other nations who died with our own: dozens of Pakistanis; more than 130 Israelis; more than 250 citizens of India; men and women from El Salvador, Iran, Mexico and Japan; and hundreds of British citizens. America has no truer friend than Great Britain. (Applause.) Once again, we are joined together in a great cause -- so honored the British Prime Minister has crossed an ocean to show his unity of purpose with America. Thank you for coming, friend. (Applause.)
On September the 11th, enemies of freedom committed an act of war against our country. Americans have known wars -- but for the past 136 years, they have been wars on foreign soil, except for one Sunday in 1941. Americans have known the casualties of war -- but not at the center of a great city on a peaceful morning. Americans have known surprise attacks -- but never before on thousands of civilians. All of this was brought upon us in a single day -- and night fell on a different world, a world where freedom itself is under attack.
Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.
Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.
The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.
This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.
The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.
Afghanistan's people have been brutalized -- many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.
The United States respects the people of Afghanistan -- after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid -- but we condemn the Taliban regime. (Applause.) It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.
And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.
These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. (Applause.) The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.
I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans, and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah. (Applause.) The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them. (Applause.)
Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated. (Applause.)
Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.
They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.
These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.
We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies. (Applause.)
Americans are asking: How will we fight and win this war? We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the disruption and to the defeat of the global terror network.
This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.
Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.
Our nation has been put on notice: We are not immune from attack. We will take defensive measures against terrorism to protect Americans. Today, dozens of federal departments and agencies, as well as state and local governments, have responsibilities affecting homeland security. These efforts must be coordinated at the highest level. So tonight I announce the creation of a Cabinet-level position reporting directly to me -- the Office of Homeland Security.
And tonight I also announce a distinguished American to lead this effort, to strengthen American security: a military veteran, an effective governor, a true patriot, a trusted friend -- Pennsylvania's Tom Ridge. (Applause.) He will lead, oversee and coordinate a comprehensive national strategy to safeguard our country against terrorism, and respond to any attacks that may come.
These measures are essential. But the only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it, and destroy it where it grows. (Applause.)
Many will be involved in this effort, from FBI agents to intelligence operatives to the reservists we have called to active duty. All deserve our thanks, and all have our prayers. And tonight, a few miles from the damaged Pentagon, I have a message for our military: Be ready. I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud. (Applause.)
This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom.
We ask every nation to join us. We will ask, and we will need, the help of police forces, intelligence services, and banking systems around the world. The United States is grateful that many nations and many international organizations have already responded -- with sympathy and with support. Nations from Latin America, to Asia, to Africa, to Europe, to the Islamic world. Perhaps the NATO Charter reflects best the attitude of the world: An attack on one is an attack on all.
The civilized world is rallying to America's side. They understand that if this terror goes unpunished, their own cities, their own citizens may be next. Terror, unanswered, can not only bring down buildings, it can threaten the stability of legitimate governments. And you know what -- we're not going to allow it. (Applause.)
Americans are asking: What is expected of us? I ask you to live your lives, and hug your children. I know many citizens have fears tonight, and I ask you to be calm and resolute, even in the face of a continuing threat.
I ask you to uphold the values of America, and remember why so many have come here. We are in a fight for our principles, and our first responsibility is to live by them. No one should be singled out for unfair treatment or unkind words because of their ethnic background or religious faith. (Applause.)
I ask you to continue to support the victims of this tragedy with your contributions. Those who want to give can go to a central source of information, libertyunites.org, to find the names of groups providing direct help in New York, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.
The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.
I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle.
I ask your continued participation and confidence in the American economy. Terrorists attacked a symbol of American prosperity. They did not touch its source. America is successful because of the hard work, and creativity, and enterprise of our people. These were the true strengths of our economy before September 11th, and they are our strengths today. (Applause.)
And, finally, please continue praying for the victims of terror and their families, for those in uniform, and for our great country. Prayer has comforted us in sorrow, and will help strengthen us for the journey ahead.
Tonight I thank my fellow Americans for what you have already done and for what you will do. And ladies and gentlemen of the Congress, I thank you, their representatives, for what you have already done and for what we will do together.
Tonight, we face new and sudden national challenges. We will come together to improve air safety, to dramatically expand the number of air marshals on domestic flights, and take new measures to prevent hijacking. We will come together to promote stability and keep our airlines flying, with direct assistance during this emergency. (Applause.)
We will come together to give law enforcement the additional tools it needs to track down terror here at home. (Applause.) We will come together to strengthen our intelligence capabilities to know the plans of terrorists before they act, and find them before they strike. (Applause.)
We will come together to take active steps that strengthen America's economy, and put our people back to work.
Tonight we welcome two leaders who embody the extraordinary spirit of all New Yorkers: Governor George Pataki, and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. (Applause.) As a symbol of America's resolve, my administration will work with Congress, and these two leaders, to show the world that we will rebuild New York City. (Applause.)
After all that has just passed -- all the lives taken, and all the possibilities and hopes that died with them -- it is natural to wonder if America's future is one of fear. Some speak of an age of terror. I know there are struggles ahead, and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror; this will be an age of liberty, here and across the world. (Applause.)
Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail. (Applause.)
It is my hope that in the months and years ahead, life will return almost to normal. We'll go back to our lives and routines, and that is good. Even grief recedes with time and grace. But our resolve must not pass. Each of us will remember what happened that day, and to whom it happened. We'll remember the moment the news came -- where we were and what we were doing. Some will remember an image of a fire, or a story of rescue. Some will carry memories of a face and a voice gone forever.
And I will carry this: It is the police shield of a man named George Howard, who died at the World Trade Center trying to save others. It was given to me by his mom, Arlene, as a proud memorial to her son. This is my reminder of lives that ended, and a task that does not end. (Applause.)
I will not forget this wound to our country or those who inflicted it. I will not yield; I will not rest; I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.
The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them. (Applause.)
Fellow citizens, we'll meet violence with patient justice -- assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America.
Thank you. (Applause.)

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT AND GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 8:10 AM

Hugh -

Another great piece! The confusion on the issue is ridiculous among our policy makers. The only public figure that seems to have read anything on Islam whatsoever is Newt Gingrich. I guess that's because he not that busy right now. We have a work, work, work culture - nobody has the time to stop and THINK, including those we pay to do just that. The Washington culture is busy, busy, busy, rush, rush, rush - they're libel to lead us all over the cliff if somebody doesn't warn them about the wrong direction we're on. They want to make decisions without all the facts. Don't have time to search for the truth.

I'm sorry to say the same thing about those who should act as a light on the path ahead, namely our major political rags. Without the blogosphere - where would we be?

Thank God for Jihad Watch. Thank you Robert and Hugh for bringing a sane and coherent perspective to this struggle.

You guys are my heroes.

Rebecca

Posted by: rb

at May 10, 2005 8:35 AM

Islam was, is and will forever be at war with the rest of the world - that is its reason for being.

To allow followers of this "religion" to live amongst us is insanity. Islam is simply not compatible with our society's basic philosophy.

Today's most peaceful Muslim might tomorrow or the next day, week or month finally read or hear the REAL message of the Qur'an and become a REAL Muslim.

Islam must be exposed for the totalitarian hate-filled political ideology that it is and be detached from West history and religion. ISLAM IS A LIE.

Muslims in the West should be given a choice: LEAVE ISLAM or LEAVE THE WEST. For America to do otherwise is to invite Europe's experience on ourselves.

We might disagree on how to get there from here, but removing Islamfrom our midst is surely the goal.

Ethelred Smith - questioningIslam@yhaoo.com
- challenging-islam.org

Posted by: Ethelred

at May 10, 2005 9:31 AM

We do not choose to be at war with Islam. The Islamic goal of triumphalism over all humankind and domination has created this adversarial relationship. Muslim countries can't be content to have non-Muslim neighbors and Muslim inhabitants of non-Muslim countries can't be content to live within those countries as participating citizens through assimilation and cooperation.

Muslims make demands of accommodation that would not be permitted to non-Muslim inhabitants of Muslim countries. Muslim countries do not make good neighbors and Muslim that don't assimilate and cooperate don't make good citizens, that historically has very uncomfortable situation for all for many centuries. The lessons of history tell us that Muslims should remain in Muslim lands.

Posted by: epg

at May 10, 2005 10:24 AM

We're not at war against "terror". We're at war against Islamic literalism, pure and simple. If there were still Christians that took the old testament as literally as some Muslims are taking their texts, then we'd likely be at war with them, too, unless we were fine with adulterers being stoned in the streets and forcing widows to marry their dead husband's brother. Most religious texts are horror shows when brought into actual practice.

Posted by: Dan

at May 10, 2005 10:26 AM

Dan~ correct. Jesus abrogated the Old Testament. Anyone who believes that Christians en-masse are unconsciously following some pee-wee-league c.r. cult, is helping islam by tearing down our side.

*now Definitely gone back to work*

Posted by: Gary

at May 10, 2005 10:43 AM

As for Africans within Islam's perverse grasp, it is beyond me as to why so many Nigerians embrace a vulgar ideology that slaughtered so many of their ancestors. Still, Islam is on the march in Africa, and Christianity and Spiritualism are on the retreat.

Posted by: smokem

at May 10, 2005 11:38 AM

DO YOU REMEMBER I DO!!

WOE ho ho ho Catherine!!!!

GOOD ONE!!!!

Posted by: Beth

at May 10, 2005 11:46 AM

Without the blogosphere - where would we be?

Rebecca? Going insane!

Posted by: Beth

at May 10, 2005 11:48 AM

I had a discussion with a relative a while ago about the "War on Terror" and what I thought about it. This person is a "devout" liberal and couldn't come to grips with us going to Afghanistan and, particularly, Iraq.

I told him my feeling was that, as Americans, I think we have a hard time believing there are people who have terrible desires against us and our way of life. However, that being said, we risk serious harm as a nation not taking them at their word.

If someone repeatedly told me that he desired to beat the tar out of me, and had been working to do it and justified it in his own mind as being entitled to do it, I'd have to be a fool not to take precautions to protect myself. So it is for us in non-Muslim lands.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical

at May 10, 2005 11:59 AM

Have we forgotten? Hell no. NEVER FORGET, NEVER FORGIVE!

"But the Lord said, "Your brother's blood calls to me from the ground. What have you done?"

http://attacked911.tripod.com/

Time to remember!

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 12:03 PM

smokem,

I beg to differ about Christianity in Africa. Reinhard Bonke has rallies throughtout Africa where millions attend, miracles happen and millions are being converted. Just because you don't read about it in the MSM doesn't mean it's not happening.

Regards,

eve_anne_gelical

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical

at May 10, 2005 12:04 PM

Guys:

Check out the DW posts from yesterday (I haven't checked today's yet). There's a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth muslim poster attempting her own form of jihad with the help of taqiyya and threats. She's actually trying to make us, US afraid! It's hilarious! Go for a laugh - but note that she's afraid to come over to JW and play with the big boys.

The rhetoric is quite instructive as to the muslim mindset (as if we haven't seen it already ad nauseum) although ludicrous.

Posted by: CGW

at May 10, 2005 12:06 PM

If there were still Christians that took the old testament as literally as some Muslims are taking their texts, then we'd likely be at war with them, too, unless we were fine with adulterers being stoned in the streets and forcing widows to marry their dead husband's brother. Most religious texts are horror shows when brought into actual practice.

Dan, You don't have to belong to some relgion to read these - ok?

Take a look:

Ecc 3:15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be - hath already been

And so - what is now [which has already been] is the 'widow' [church] of God - remarried to the 'new comforter'. [Both made up of MANY members]

It is a spiritual parable Dan.

Men are stoned by the mouths of God's servants - not with hardened material from the ground.

Why do you think the devils feared Jesus so much?

The FIRST thing many will do - is JUMP on this with accusations of proselytization.

The only thing being done - is one small piece of a popular literature is being presented.

I will in NO WAY - kill you if you don't accept what it has to say. [I didn't write them]

I will in NO WAY - decide not to be your friend if you don't accept them.

And if you were in my house visiting- I would in NO WAY - bring it up knowing already that you're not interested.

I only give them because they are a part of the solution in fighting another 'religion'

We are NOT at war with some 'political' ideology! That is a lie - and it is a dangerous one - because it keeps the focus off of the Truth.

This is a war that the god of Islam provoked!

allah will prove that for me - himself - with very own words.

Using a political approach only covers the physical part of it. It also involves bloodshed [WAR]

But - even after a war - unless or until the Koran is confronted once and for all - they'll STILL be coming! because the Koran will only create some more.

This HAS to be approached on a Spiritual level - OR we can all brace ourselves for the bloodshed to come - a quantity of bloodshed to the likes never seen.

Jesus is the 'Stone' that this world has rejected.

His Word spoken 'stones' those who reject.

And

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels [NOT HUMANS] shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.

Those who want to block the Scriptures are ONLY blocking the very Weapon it is going to take to defeat Islam....a 'religion' - that attacked the New Testament - and wasn't even provoked into doing so.

Posted by: Beth

at May 10, 2005 12:16 PM

IS ANYONE REALY SURPRISED?? If you know about the Torah or the Bible then you would understand they worship Ismael and what it says about him will be an ass of a man his hand against every one!!
The Arabians were for centuries governed by the decendants of Joktan, who peopled the south-west of Arabia. Yarab one of the sons of Joktan founded the kingdom of Yaman, in which was also the kingdom of Sheba, whose Queen afterwards visted King Solomon. The Kingdom of Yaman was the most powerful state of all Arabia. [NOW THERE IS A pleage on the children who is from there?ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY]
Jorahan another son of Joktan founded the kingdom of Hedjaz which became the thereafter became the most import in all Arabia for its possession of the holy places of Mecca and Medina, and is called the holy land of Arabia
The Arabs originally acknowledged the Existence of one Supreme God, Creator of the Universe, whom they called allah taala, the most high god.
Their religion soon lost it’s earliest monotheism, and degenerated into gross idolatry, fetichism, animal worship and star worship. They frist of all adoped Sabeanism or worship of the hosts of heaven.
It is said that the ancient Arabs had 7 celebrated temples decated to the 7 plantes. Very soon, however, the star worship became greatly corrupted and other deities, superstitious and idolatrous practices were introduced.
From their pagen neighbors they adopted the dorctrine of the abodes or haunts of gods: marked them out as sacred territories by pillars, and within which bloodshed, cutting of trees, and killing game was forbidden,and within such enclosures the blood of sacrifices was smeared on sacred stones, and gifts were hung up on trees. This is the origin of the Haramain or sacred territory around Mecca and Medina. Everywher in Arabia there were wells, pillars, and heaps of stones, where the Arab devotees congregated to obtain special blessings. Sacrifices were common, but not by fire. The blood of the sacrifices was smeared over the rude stone altars, and the flesh was eaten by the worshipers.
They also worshiped idols, ten of whom are mentioned by name in the qu-ran.
Al Uzza identified with planet Venus, and worshiped at times under the form of an acacia tree: and Manat a huge stone worshiped as an altar by several tribes. The Arabs also worshiped angels, whom they called female gods and the daughters of god. They imagined that these images of angles were animated by them and were intercessors with god for man. The most celebrated and central object of arab worship however was the blackstone of Mecca set in the corner of a square building called the Kaaba, in which also are placed the images of Abraham and Ismael each carrying in their hands divine arrows.
SO WHEN THE GO AROUND AND AROUND THEY WORSHIP ISMAEL KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT HIM??

Futher they say that mecca stands on the spot exactly beneath God’s throne in heaven. The present Kaaba they say was built by Abraham and his son Ismael and the black stone which had been missing, was shewn to Ismael by the angel Gabriel, and it was used as a corner stone for the building of the kaaba.
The Jews who had fled in great numbers into Arabia from the fearful destruction of their country by the Romans, had introduced Jewish religion among several of the tribes. Christianity like wise had made great progress among this nation before the birth of Mo-Ham-Od
The multiplicity and variety of so many religions and religious ideas and practices not infrequently conflicting with one anoth had already produced in the minds of these people necessity of finding a religion that would be re-conciliatory, and that could be adaped to the nature of people and thus the path was layed open to the new religion called Hanifs, which was introduced just before the brith of Mo-Ham-Od. These Hanifs were a small number of Arabs, who worshiped only allah, rejecting polytheism, and sought FREEDOM from sin and resignation to Gods will. Thus was we see Hanifism was only a step to islam, and such was the state of religion in Arabia befor the time of Mo-Ham-Od.
OF COURSE THEN HE BROUGHT RAPE KILLING STEALING AND LETS NOT FORGET LIEING ALL FOR HIS CAUSE??? SAD SAD!! Most muslims have taken what was before which was good and get it mixed up with Mo-Ham-Ods stuff???

Some by me and the rest by Rev.J.L.Menezes written in 1912??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 12:27 PM

http://attacked911.tripod.com/

That's a good one Carolyn - it's powerful

Posted by: Beth

at May 10, 2005 12:30 PM

Dan~ correct. Jesus abrogated the Old Testament. Anyone who believes that Christians en-masse are unconsciously following some pee-wee-league c.r. cult, is helping islam by tearing down our side.

*now Definitely gone back to work*

Posted by: Gary at May 10, 2005 10:43 AM

Gary
Hate to tell you this but you are wrong there didn't he [Jesus] say iI have not come to change the words of the Prophets of old???

so he did not abrogated the Old Testament. He brought those not born to the Jewish bloodline into the flock!!

PS
Read the book and you will find that it is up to the leaders who are to make the laws except for the 10 God gave to Moses on the Mt. those are in STONE!!!

PSS
Loved the Flag of the Ukrain not just 1 cross but 4!!
and the Russian Flag Red White and Blue!!

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 12:48 PM

Have we forgotten? Hell no. NEVER FORGET, NEVER FORGIVE!

"But the Lord said, "Your brother's blood calls to me from the ground. What have you done?"

http://attacked911.tripod.com/

Time to remember!

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 10, 2005 12:03 PM

Gold Star for you today!

In hearing this i was taken by the MSM saying and now the buildings are gone!

Will we have to hear them say now a whole city is gone?? Because the Democrats are playing a game in their stalling they are playing with Americans Lifes so they can have power back??

I like to see the parts of Presidents Bush's speech that talks of Kicking ASS and talks of our anger and Freedom and Fear and it is Freedom [and SHORT SKIRTS] that will win!!

President Bush said "Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.
Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere."

AND HE SAID " The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.
This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction. "

AND HE SAID"The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world." [NO SHORT SKIRTS THERE]

AND HE SAID" Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated." (Applause.) [WHAT DO YOU THINK OUR GUYS ARE DOING NOW BUT KILLING ISLAMIC TERRORIST]

AND HE SAID"Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other."

AND HE SAID" They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa." [WE ARE SEEING THIS NOW]

AND HE SAID"These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way."[DEMOCRATS JUST DON'T GET IT]

AND HE SAID" We are not deceived by their pretenses to piety. We have seen their kind before. They are the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions -- by abandoning every value except the will to power -- they follow in the path of fascism, and Nazism, and totalitarianism. And they will follow that path all the way, to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." (Applause.) [I LIKE THIS ONE MEANS WE ARE GOING TO KICK ASS WITH OUR FRIENDS LIKE IN WW2]

AND HE SAID" This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.
Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime" [AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS HE HAS NOT FORGOTTEN HIS OWN WORDS]

NOW DO THE MULSUMS STILL WANT TO F-CK WITH AMERICA???

LOOKS LIKE THE LESSON HAS NOT BEEN LEARNED AND A BIG CAN OF WOOP-ASS IS GETTING READY TO BE OPENED!!!

AND HE SAID"This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom."

AND HE SAID" The thousands of FBI agents who are now at work in this investigation may need your cooperation, and I ask you to give it.
I ask for your patience, with the delays and inconveniences that may accompany tighter security; and for your patience in what will be a long struggle."

AND HE SAID" Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment. Freedom and fear are at war. The advance of human freedom -- the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time -- now depends on us. Our nation -- this generation -- will lift a dark threat of violence from our people and our future. We will rally the world to this cause by our efforts, by our courage. We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." (Applause.) [THE ANGER IS STILL HERE AND STRONG]

PS
Love what Putin said that these mulsums were worse than the Nazis!

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 1:39 PM

...We have a work, work, work culture - nobody has the time to stop and THINK, including those we pay to do just that...

Posted by: rb at May 10, 2005 08:35 AM

Hey, rb, that's certainly a part of it, for sure.

Another part of it is our government-run school system, which has been teaching our children for over 150 years the principles of multiculturalism, diversity, moral equivalency, and dumbing them down by deliberately keeping them from learning factual material. In more recent times, the Muslims have taken advantage of this situation to gain a foothold in our classrooms and give our teachers lesson plans which teach a sunny, kindly, tolerant, reasonable, and obviously totally distorted view of Islam. Our textbook publishers have been pressured by Muslims, Muslim sympathizers, and the current crop of postmodernist nihilists to print textbooks which promote these lies and distortions.

Guys:

The rhetoric is quite instructive as to the muslim mindset (as if we haven't seen it already ad nauseum) although ludicrous.

Posted by: CGW at May 10, 2005 12:06 PM

CGW,

It must be time for you to post your "Don't feed the Trolls" sign again.

Folks, you can easily drain them of their energy, and at the same time have some fun, by ridiculing them; they just throw temper-tantrums when the truth about them is told. But DON'T FEED THEM by taking them seriously! After all, when they shake their heads, you hear the contents of their skulls, dessicated by Islam, rattle loudly! They are hypersensitive when confronted by the truth, have no self-esteem whatsoever, a totally twisted sense of what "honor" means--well, it goes on and on.

Laughter is not only the best medicine, it is often the best weapon!

Islam was, is and will forever be at war with the rest of the world - that is its reason for being.

To allow followers of this "religion" to live amongst us is insanity. Islam is simply not compatible with our society's basic philosophy.

Posted by: Ethelred at May 10, 2005 09:31 AM

Ethelred,

Right on.

Folks, the creation of an Islamic planet is the "standard of the good" on which their whole moral code is constructed. Since a moral code is a set of values chosen to guide our thoughts and behaviors (it's important to remember "chosen"), their whole reason for existence, as you point out, is to conquer us. It's their identity as a group; without it--the creaton of an Islamic planet--they have no reason to exist, no identity, and that's intolerable for people.

In any moral code, those thoughts and behaviors which tend to support the "standard of the good" are regarded as good, while those which tend to threaten it are regarded as bad.

Most peoples around the world have some sort of idea that "life" is the "standard of the good," and that thoughts and behaviors which tend to support life are therefore good.

Not so with Islam; since their standard of the good is the creation of an Islamic planet, any thoughts and behaviors, including murder and mayhem, which tend to support it, are "good."

This is why so many of us, whose moral code is so different, have such a hard time understanding Islam.

Too many of us assume that "life" as the standard of the good is universally accepted.

It is not.

I just have to add here that if Islam were stripped of its characterization as a "religion," if its goals, thoughts, and behaviors were seen without the benefit of the "cloaking device" of its claim to be a religion, there's not a one of us, including our President, who would be confused at all about what to do about them, any more than we are confused about what to do about the various gangs that operate throughout the country.

I had a discussion with a relative... about the "War on Terror"... This person is a "devout" liberal and couldn't come to grips with us going to Afghanistan and, particularly, Iraq...I think we have a hard time believing there are people who have terrible desires against us and our way of life...If someone repeatedly told me that he desired to beat the tar out of me, and had been working to do it and justified it, I'd have to be a fool not to take precautions to protect myself...

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at May 10, 2005 11:59 AM

Eve_anne_gelical,

Your liberal relative (read: Postmodern nihilist who has been taught by the schools to believe that moral equivalency, multiculturalism, diversity, and a one-world government are "good") is a typical victim of our government school system, which was targeted by socialists in the early 1900s (although it was already a gleam in earlier socialists' eyes by the mid to late 1800s). The efforts of the utopian socialists crossed over a critical mass in the 1950s, and their successes have been accomplished with increasing speed ever since.

And your comment about "beating the tar" out of you is so on target. None of those wishing to destroy us have ever made a secret of it--the Nazis, the Communists, and Islam, for example--it's just that we can't seem to come to grips with the fact that their moral codes are not based on the same values ours are. Why, EVERYONE thinks that respect for individual rights, freedom, life, peace, productivity, and happiness are good, RIGHT?

The fact that not everyone does, makes it VERY difficult for many to understand why they don't like us, and why they want to harm us.

It is psychologically impossible for even the worst criminal to feel "immoral." We must all morally justify what we do. The big problem is that not everyone's moral code is constructed on a valid "standard" of what is good. Islam's, for example; their fellow travellers of the Left, for another.

We can "feel" moral in several ways: We can derive a valid "standard of the good" from reality (that has been done, and it so happens that it is "life"--too long to go into here, unfortunately), or we can rely on invalid claims for what is morally OK, such as denying responsibility ("It was all her fault when I beat her up and raped her"), lying ("Islam is a religion of peace"), and so on.

Catherine,

I really enjoyed your post! Keep it up!

Posted by: cubed

at May 10, 2005 1:39 PM

cubed:

Please note that I was only advocating READING the posts - not replying to them. I'm still adamantly opposed to troll-feeding.

I should have made that clear in my original post.

Posted by: CGW

at May 10, 2005 2:10 PM

Gary where do you get off claiming that Jesus abrogated the old testament. First of all that is insulting to Jews, but I can give you a number of quotes from Jesus, where he said stuff like "So sayeth the Prophets, so sayeth the Law ) the prophets like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel and the Law is Leviticus. He also said I came not to set aside the law but to fulfill it.

And since Jesus is god, why would God (or even the son of God) abrogate his own promises and Laws (leviticus) are you saying that an omnipotent and omescient god was immature in his early days, grew up and had a change of heart?

to spread Islam, to prevent non-Muslims from setting up any obstacles to the further spread and ultimate dominance of Islam, and to ensure that any non-Muslims permitted to remain alive without being forcibly converted will, nonetheless, have to live lives of deliberate humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity

If Islamic history is prologue, Islam has no interest in converting kufr, but forcing them into submission. Show me an Islamic country and I'll show you people living on welfare (state subsidy). Without dhimmi's and Jizyah (and our addiction to "black crack" is Jizyah payments), the economies collapse and the people live in poverty.

For ninety years the Umayyads ruled from Syria, using the existing Byzantine Bureaucracy. Their rule was on the whole tolerant. Islam they regarded as a racist Arab movement. Therefore they tried to convert all Arabs-Christians, Jewish and pagan-to Islam, but they made it hard for non Arabs to convert. They wanted a Muslim Arab aristocracy to rule a non-Muslim, non Arab tax paying population.

The Ottomans so depleted the populations of the Balkans and Greece, with their massacres and blood levy (devirshme) that when Spain exiled the Sephardim in 1492, they were anxious to welcome them as a source of revenue, fresh blood to work and tax.

If the West converted to Islam, there would be no Dhimmi's to work and tax, meanwhile the Muslim nations have an ample supply of dhimmi's to provide them with income and goodies.

I recall reading somewhere an Egyptians response when it was suggested that Egypt promote education and industry. He said in essence: Why, we don't need to so long as we have the kufr doing the work for us.

The addiction of the west to petroleum (black crack)enables the Islamic world to extort jizyah from us, in the form of payments, which become subsidy of the population, as in Saudi Arabia, technology, food, weapons and consumer goods.

And sadly the Houston oil boys, (Exxon Texaco Mobil et al) are heavily invested in the status quo, thanks to the profits that they reap from the process.

That's why global warming is debunked as econuttery, why there is only lip service to alternative energy. (I would love to see the classified patents and technology used by DoD and DARPA, let loose to the public, it would mean independence from oil, but also a loss of profits and power for those whose profits and power are petroleum dependent, besides the Saudis, Kuwaitis, UAE and Iran.

Posted by: Giaour

at May 10, 2005 2:13 PM

giaour~ I chose the word 'abrogate' deliberately, in light of how so many articles of war seem to abrogate articles of peace in islam.

I knew some people might get what I was saying, or correct me.

Not sure why it matters to you, since you insist we're all wrong, mentally as well as philosophically, anyway.

http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200505020944.asp

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17957

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17927

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17958

And back out for one more run... have a good evening, everyone.

Posted by: Gary

at May 10, 2005 2:56 PM

Posted by: Giaour at May 10, 2005 02:13 PM

You don't think they got it from the Aliens do you??

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
Cubed
You too!!

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 3:04 PM

Muslims are at war with, and remain a permanent danger to, all non-Muslim societies.

We can go back and forth with these nonsensical claims all day. The fact stands that the Muslim perpetrators of terrorist attacks are not demanding that everyone convert to Islam. Rather they are demanding that invaders/occupiers withdraw from their lands.

Each instance that you mentioned of Muslims allegedly warring on non-Muslims can be explained by the discrimination and attacks by governments (even "Islamic" governments) against Muslims.

Posted by: Shukri

at May 10, 2005 3:10 PM

Rather they are demanding that invaders/occupiers withdraw from their lands.

Posted by: Shukri at May 10, 2005 03:10 PM

AGAIN WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

WHY ARE YOU CALLING THE AFGANIE PEOPLE INVADERS??

AND WHY ARE YOU CALLING THE IRAQI PEOPLE INVADERS YOUR MULSUM TERRORIST ARE KILLING IRAQIS WHY??

YOUR EGYPTIAN TERRORIST ARE KILLING TOURIST WITHOUT WHICH THE PEOPLE OF EGYPT WILL DIE THAT IS THEIR ONLY SORCE OF INCOME??

YOUR ARE A SILLY FELLOW DO YOU WHERE A DRESS TO HIDE YOURSELF LIKE YOUR OTHER TERRORIST FRIENDS??

EVEN NOW NASSEEM SEES HOW WRONG SHE WAS AND THIS IS A FIGHT WORTH FIGHTING!!

OR I SHOULD SAY SHE NOW COWARAS IN HER HOME LIKE THE WOMAN MULSUMS EXPECT??

LOOKS LIKE MRS CLINTON HAS BEEN CAUGHT WITH HER PANTIES DOWN TO THE TUNE OF 800,000 DOLLARS??

SEAMS THAT TEDS SON-IN-LAW WAS NOT GOING TO TAKE THE FALL FOR HER OR OTHER DEMOCRATS AND THEY [DEMOCRATS] WERE NOT ABLE TO SLIP THE BILL IN TO STOP THE FUNDING OF THE FBI??

SO ALL THAT ABOUT BOLTIN AND TOM DELAY WAS A RUSE TO SAVE MRS CLINTON AND BILL RUNNING WITH GEORGE WELL WHAT CAN I SAY!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER AMEN

PS
6 bodys found in home on Ranch in Calf. was a Distric Att. and his 5 Family members??

Could he have been looking in to mulsums??

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 3:36 PM

It is not.
I just have to add here that if Islam were stripped of its characterization as a "religion," if its goals, thoughts, and behaviors were seen without the benefit of the "cloaking device" of its claim to be a religion, there's not a one of us, including our President, who would be confused at all about what to do about them, any more than we are confused about what to do about the various gangs that operate throughout the country.

It's very simple. The Islamics themself admit it, and I've linked to it many times.Islam is an ideology, and in their terms the perfect ideology for the world. So we can stop the pretense that it is a religion.

Gary:

I'm not the only one who corrected you when you said that Jesus abrogated the old testament, so did Catherine.

Cubed (and Gary) you guys are too eat up on your hatred of liberals, and that plays right into the hands of the Muslims, who love nothing more than to divide and conquer, which they could not do without your complicity and assistance.

And Gary as regards Kurtz, and those links to Dominionism. I've kept my eye on Dominionist in all of it's manifestations, long before 9-11 and the truth is that these people are fascistic theocrats whose agenda for America, especially their social agenda,is no different than the Iranians or Saudis.

Read the May issue of Harper's check up on Pastor Ted Haggard of New LIfe Church, Lou Dobson, Pat Robertson.

About the only thing I agree with them, and apparently you on, is the threat of Islam to secular western democracy and our religious free civil liberties.

It is because I am pro secular western democracy that I am anti Islam and anti theocracy (in any form).

You can take me as an ally in the struggle, or make me your enemy. Your choice.

You make me your enemy by your choice of agendas, rants and demonizing attacks.

I think at heart you are with me, you don't want to have to Pledge Allegiance to an Islamic Republic under Allah, do you, so why should I have to Pledge Allegiance to a Christian Republic under Jehovah?

And I'm not anti Christian either, my personal values are those of Christ's teachings, even Papal Encyclicals like Rerum Novarum.

Posted by: Giaour

at May 10, 2005 4:22 PM

BTW Gary, a couple of my favorite teachings of Christ that the likes of Pat Robertson, Pastor Ted Haggard, Tom Delay, et al choose to ignore, in a fit of situational ethics and moral relavitism are the following:

Communism in the Bible

Matt 19:21: 'Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.'

Acts 2:44-45

All the believers together had everything in common; they sold their possessions and their goods, and distributed among all in accordance with each one's need

Acts 4:32-35
The Believers Share Their Possessions

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

Acts 5:1-11
Ananias and Sapphira

And I don't mean state communism either, these teachings are totally at odds with the globalist Free Market Theology, which now dominates neo conservativism and the NEW Christian Right.

In short the NEW Christian Right has become fascist, and Islam is fascist.

And if there is one definition for me it is anti fascist.

Time for Christianity to get back to basics and away from self righteous extremism., if we are to prevail in the war that Islam has declared on Dar al Kufr.

Posted by: Giaour

at May 10, 2005 4:46 PM

'I think at heart you are with me, you don't want to have to Pledge Allegiance to an Islamic Republic under Allah, do you, so why should I have to Pledge Allegiance to a Christian Republic under Jehovah?' ~ giaour

Finally! You must have heard something I said, somewhere. Because I have never said I wanted a theocracy, anywhere, and I would never support one.

Despite Dominionist conspiracy theories that I 'unconsciously support them.'

There will never be a theocracy in the US. Know why?

Because as much as I think the MSM is left-leaning, they do serve the purpose of Watchdog when it comes to religion.

I think they go overboard on some things...

But because of them, no c.r. cult is going to get anymore of a foot-hold than Koresh or Heaven's Gate.

And I am Fine with that. Go Ratherists!

And we must Still get the leftist academics to stop indoctrinating the upcoming generations in the 'RoP.'

Posted by: Gary

at May 10, 2005 4:52 PM

HOW SOON WE FORGET??

THIS WAS POSTED ON JW AND WHEN YOU TAKE THE SPEECH ON 2001 SEPTEMBER 20 PUT THE DOTS TOGETHER WE ARE NOT AT ODS WHITH THOSE ON OUR SIDE WE HAVE THE SAME ENEMY JUST AS IN WW2!!

April 21, 2005
Jihad incitement in Kyrgyzstan
News from Kyrgyzstan in "A New Wave of Migration?" from TOL, with thanks to Effractor:
OSH, Kyrgyzstan - As Kyrgyzstan's new leaders try to maintain stability ahead of presidential elections, concern is growing over rising numbers of non-Kyrgyz seeking to leave the country.
Russia's ambassador in Bishkek, Evgeny Shmagin, said that the number of Russian-speakers who want to leave their birthplace has jumped fivefold since the unrest of late March that led to the ouster of former president Askar Akaev and his regime.
Shmagin pinned some of the blame on nationalistic, anti-Russian flyers that have begun appearing on the streets of the capital, Bishkek....
The leaflets call for a jihad - or holy war - against Russians living in Kyrgyzstan. "Muslim brothers, do not buy apartments and houses from Russians and Koreans because in any case they will give them away," the flyers said, implying that they will soon leave the country in any case....
Posted by Robert at April 21, 2005 08:21 AM

SORRY NO LINK HAVE TO DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK WAS LAZY THAT DAY!!

Posted by: Catherine

at May 10, 2005 5:03 PM

Hobbs charged in his little girls's and her friend's murder. What a monster.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 5:45 PM

"We can go back and forth with these nonsensical claims all day. The fact stands that the Muslim perpetrators of terrorist attacks are not demanding that everyone convert to Islam. Rather they are demanding that invaders/occupiers withdraw from their lands"

No, Shukri. I don't believe they are demanding that we all convert either. They are just insisting that we get off the planet. It states in all the islamic books that this world is not big enough for muslims and kufrs, and you can't deny that.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 5:59 PM

Hugh Fitzgerald? Do you send any of your writings to government offials?

I read them - and they are just another part of the Truth being told [by many] and they are astounding. So clearly put.

It erks me that the leaders of this nation refuse to address these matters with the same spirit you show.

And I can't tell you HOW much it erks me.

Maybe because I have be wondering for too long now - why they're not confronting this before all.

Sure - people fear for their lives - but sheeeze - I refuse to believe that the U.S. government can't somehow find a way to get messages out [like yours are] - with an over-whelming attack on the media!

I do believe - that is what it is going to take

Posted by: Beth

at May 10, 2005 6:26 PM

Check this out:

Billions Spent by Saudi Royal Family to Spread Islam

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.iraq/browse_thread/thread/f27c4d93e020a196/f5ab7785e48fb6d4?q=spreading+islam&rnum=1&hl=en#f5ab7785e48fb6d4

Posted by: vishal

at May 10, 2005 6:47 PM

WE WHO ARE ABOUT TO DIE--KISS YOU, ON THE MOUTH NO LESS!

"Have you ever been curious how the Roman Empire, despite its vast superiority in every area, fell to the barbarians?"
--Yashiko Sagamori

Can you see and draw the parallel?

Read all about it--and see the photograph that appears to seal our fate with a kiss!

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/yashiko/MysteriesOfTheDeep_eng.html

Posted by: unicorns62000

at May 10, 2005 9:40 PM

unicorns62000, very good article.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 10:20 PM

From unicorns link -

"For example, do you remember the recent murder of the Armanious family in New Jersey? They were Copts, members of a ruthlessly persecuted, mostly Christian ethnic minority in Egypt. The Copts are descendents of the ancient Egyptians, who had created one of the oldest civilizations on Earth, built the pyramids, kept us in bondage for a few centuries, and eventually lost their land to Arab occupiers who now call themselves Egyptians with about as much right to that name as Arabs occupying Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have to call themselves “Palestinian”. Hossam Armanious and his wife Amal had a dangerous hobby. They were trying to convert Arab immigrants from Egypt to Christianity. They received several death threats. In January 2005, the entire family, including two daughters, 15 and 8 years old, was brutally murdered in their home. The absence of any signs of forced entry indicated that the victims knew the murderers and let them in suspecting nothing wrong. Burglary was ruled out since nothing was missing. The method of killing was consistent with the method of Islamic ritual slaughter. This led the Coptic community to suggest that the victims were killed by Muslims they were trying to convert. The authorities were unwilling to investigate such a possibility. Instead, they arrested two Christians and accused them of burglary and murder. One of them was the Armanious' tenant, which was supposed to explain why there were no signs of forced entry; the victims knew the visitor and let him in. The official version stated that the murderers were wearing masks. Initially, they weren't going to kill the family, and changed their minds only after the youngest girl accidentally saw the face of one of the burglars. This may explain why nothing was missing. This also implies that the victims voluntarily allowed inside their home two people wearing masks. In other words, the official version is total bull. Does the government cover Muslim crimes?

On November 5, 1990, in the conference room of the Mariott East Side Hotel, an Egyptian immigrant fatally shot Rabbi Meir Kahane in front of dozens of witnesses. He was arrested, tried, and acquitted of murder, but convicted for illegal gun possession. The government refused to treat it as a terrorist act.

On March 1, 1994, near the Brooklyn Bridge in New York City, a Lebanese immigrant opened fire on a minibus carrying Lubavicher yeshiva students, killing one of them and injuring three others. He was charged and convicted of murder, attempted murder, and illegal possession of weapons. The government refused to treat it as a terrorist act.

On October 21, 1999, after taking off at JFK, an Egyptian pilot deliberately crashed his 767 into the Atlantic, killing all 203 passengers and 14 crew members. The government refused to treat it as a terrorist act.

On July 5, 2003, an Egyptian immigrant opened fire at the crowd near the El Al counter in the Los Angeles International Airport, killing two and injuring six. The shooter was killed by an El Al security officer. The government refused to treat it as a terrorist act."

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 10:24 PM

Islamism Brews in Britain

http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=118847&D=2005-05-10&HC=2

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 10:51 PM

I'm looking for 1-page flyers which educate non-Muslims about Islam. Does anyone know where I could find them? I'd like to distribute them to the people of my local communities.

P.S.-Nothing too shocking, please. I know the truth about Islam is horrifying, but I'd like to educate people without terrifying them. Perhaps Islamic quotes which focus on the abuse of women in Islam, and racism in Islam, etc.?

Thanks.

Posted by: Freedom1

at May 10, 2005 11:29 PM

I just re-read my above post. The abuse of women in Islam and racism in Islam ARE horrifying. What I meant, is that I'd like to find flyers that highlight these abuses, without resorting to the worst quotes that are available about these two subjects. Know what I mean?

Posted by: Freedom1

at May 10, 2005 11:34 PM

Freedom, have you ever gone to Co-Jet?

http://www.co-jet.org/

There is a menu on the left side of the main page

Co-Jet was started by a group from JW.

Posted by: Carolyn2

at May 10, 2005 11:53 PM

looked at Unicorns link...The photo made me laugh, then cry, then laugh...whatta smooch...looked a lot like michael moore in heat...is this smooching part of official protocol, or is it just a little more personal??? wink, wink....

Posted by: duh_swami

at May 11, 2005 12:06 AM

Thank you, Carolyn2. This will be very helpful!

Posted by: Freedom1

at May 11, 2005 12:06 AM

CGW,

I KNOW I should never try to do things when I'm in such a big hurry! I guess I wasn't being very clear! I think part of the problem is the way I pasted others' posts and responded to them.

I LOVE your "don't feed the trolls" posts--that's why I was hoping you'd keep posting them! So many of us are manipulated by these hysterical, immature, tantrum-throwers. I just hate to see that happen.

You have made it VERY clear that you only advocate reading the trolls posts, not feeding them.

Thanks.

Posted by: cubed

at May 11, 2005 12:57 AM

Hugh--Great Post, except for one flaw:

**including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty...

Most Circassians (there are some in Noo Joysey) I've ever heard of were Muslim rahter than Christian.

Giaour: Can't respond now. The Dobsons and Sadrs are getting together in that secret tunnel connecting Qum and Virginian Beach. I need to procure a liberated lesbian for the meal and do the magic to conjure up the shade of Meir Kahane to do the B'rokhes. The latter's a snap with my false whiskers and rabbinical getup (after all, dangerous, diabolically cunning, and poised to overthrow our proud secular republic though they be, everyone knows all fundies are as stupid as skinned mules and gullible as sheep). Tell me where I can nab a liberated lesbie or two, and I'll get to you.

Posted by: Kepha

at May 11, 2005 2:17 AM

Hugh--Great Post, except for one flaw:

**including Circassian and Georgian and other Christian women seized for their noted beauty...

Most Circassians (there are some in Noo Joysey) I've ever heard of were Muslim rahter than Christian.

Posted by: Kepha

at May 11, 2005 2:17 AM

Quote from:

http://bojilkolarov.voiceofdharma.com/offensive.html

I found myself in a remote village in eastern Bihar. Eighty percent of the residents were Muslims and twenty - Hindus. The monopoly of the first over the social life was total. The signs were everywhere written not in Devangari but with the Arab alphabet. The appearance of most of the villagers, their way of clothing, even their face expression spoke that these people not only look like Arabs but that they felt like Arabs, thought like Arabs and their umbilical cord with India is cut (later I would find that the Islam religion is able to leave traces on the faces of people and mould them.) Night and day every several hours from the loudspeaker of the minaret, the prayer of the muezzin was blasting out and did not allow the Hindus, neither the tourists nor those Muslims who did not follow strictly the religious prescriptions, to sleep in peace. I had the feeling that I was not here in India - the land of Buddha and Shri Shankaracharya, but somewhere in the Middle East.

Suddenly, I realized that in the last thousand years India had changed a lot, and for the first time in her millenary history one foreign and hostile to her real essence body was implanting. Everywhere in the big Indian cities I could see the growing Muslim quarters, with their characteristic architecture, with their slaughterhouses, they were everywhere, closed communities, hostile, looking with disdain and disgust at the surrounding community of the “impious”. Over hundred million subjects of Republic India had in fact nothing in common with her, because their heart was a thousand kilometers from here - somewhere in the Middle East. They felt as citizens of the invisible Pakistan (and demonstrated it), citizens of the World Caliphate and wanted to be foreigners in their own country.

Posted by: scourge_of_landos

at May 11, 2005 7:05 AM

Thanks Carolyn2 for reminding us of those terrorist acts which unfortunately are not recoginized by the US government.

Posted by: Voltaire

at May 11, 2005 8:17 AM

Also posted on another thread for Shurki's enlightenment, observations from no less than Al-Hayat's Washington Bureau Chief, on what is actually driving the violence and oppression of his co-religionists throughout the Middle East, and it ain't "the West"

The Washington, D.C. bureau chief of the London Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat, Salama Na'mat, accused some Arab regimes of supporting terrorism in Iraq in order to thwart the emergence of democracy in the Arab world. The following are excerpts from his article: [1]

The Aim of Terrorism in Iraq is to Prolong the Occupation

"When the Saddamist terrorism in Iraq targets the elected, the security forces, the army, and the [Iraqi] National Guard, its aim is to prolong the [U.S.] occupation by thwarting the process of building national, political, security, and military institutions that can protect the country and ensure its stability. The terrorists and their supporters in the region and worldwide know that the Iraqi government cannot demand that the foreign forces leave before it can handle the security situation - and that is precisely what they are trying to thwart.

"Nevertheless, [some] Arab governments, as well as writers and commentators in the Arab media, still insist on describing the criminals, who murder Iraqis by the hundreds and even thousands, as 'resistance' to the occupation - even though they are the primary cause of the prolongation of the occupation beyond next year.

"They insist on blaming the killing of Iraqis on the Americans - as though the suicide bombers who blow themselves up in order to kill as many [Iraqi] National Guard and policemen as possible were American."

The Aim of the Arab Regimes is to Prevent the Spread of Democracy in the Region

"…It is no secret that the American military forces are deployed in 70 countries worldwide, including strong countries like Germany and Japan. The Arab countries and Gulf countries also host these forces, as part of military agreements with strategic implications, and, [like in Iraq,] this is in accordance with these countries' interests...

"What is the responsibility of the regimes and the official and semi-official media in the countries bordering Iraq in legitimizing the operations that murder Iraqis?... Isn't their goal to thwart [the emergence of] the newborn democracy in Iraq so that it won't spread in the region?

"The terrorists may succeed in postponing the birth of the new Iraq in its democratic and pluralistic form - which is exceptional in the region - but they will not succeed in restoring Iraq to the pre-[Saddam] era. The Iraqis have no option other than to progress along a single path - the path to full independence - that will bring an end to the foreign protectorate, whether American/international [i.e. coalition forces] or terrorist/regional [i.e. Al-Zarqawi]..."

The Enemies of Democracy Will Move on to Lebanon

"If the forces of destruction succeed in disrupting the democratic model, there will be numerous implications. One is that [their] success in one place will encourage similar successes in other places in which [democracy] is being built.

"It is reasonable to assume that the hired killers will move on from Iraq to Lebanon, after coming to Iraq from Afghanistan. If the enemies of democracy put their lives on the line to wipe out [democracy] in Afghanistan, and after that in Iraq, it makes no sense for them to allow it to flourish in Lebanon.

"The forces of darkness and their natural allies in the regimes [neighboring Iraq] are insisting on turning the dream of democracy into a living hell..."

And if you want to question the integrity of MEMRI's reproduction of this article/editorial, here's the cite:

[1] Al-Hayat (London), May 5, 2005.

Posted by: waterdragon52

at May 11, 2005 9:03 AM

Scourge:

Your link smacks of militant Hinduism. While I'm not out to demean Hindus per se, there are many Hindu Muslim-baiters out there who also resent Christian tribals for refusing to enter Indian society by the "proper" path--as latrine-cleaning sweeper caste nobodies whose shadow can pollute a Brahmin at twenty paces, and who now and then have to be raped and murdered to be reminded of their place. In short, they're the wonderful people who assassinated Gandhi, stopped trains to kill every circumcised man on board back in 1947, and provoked places like Nagalnd and Mizoram to long-running sepratist conflicts. There are Hindutva types as well who look on the conversion of low-caste persons to even something as close as Buddhism as traitors.

Sure, if the Muslims are out to massacre and subvert, watch them, and arrest, try, and execute a few. But, at the same time, post-independence India has had Muslims as president and chief-of-satff for the air force, among others. To insinuate that all Indian Muslims are anti-India because of the actions of a few is unfair--just as it's unfair to lump the folks who fingered the Lackawanna Six and numerous American Muslims of whom we hear nothing (for the perfectly good reason that they're simply behaving themselves) with the Sheick Abdurkakkam and the professional liars of CAIR.

BTW, while I think it a pity that the Jews don't recognize M'shiach, I don't hold it against the Chasidim that they've rebuilt a Polish shtetl in Williamsburg; and while I have little sympathy with the Anabaptist anathematization of holding office, I don't begrudge the Amish and Hutterites their little corners of the country, either.

Posted by: Kepha

at May 11, 2005 11:45 AM

PS
Love what Putin said that these mulsums were worse than the Nazis!

Posted by: Catherine

Catherine - I believe that is an EXCELLENT post!

Keep posting it!

It IS an important message! and it needs to be pressed

Posted by: Beth

at May 12, 2005 2:57 AM

Giaour

Communism in the Bible

Matt 19:21: 'Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.'

Giaour - who is Jesus addressing?

Jesus came from the house of the Jews.
He died - and His last words were "It is finished" and then Paul was sent out to the Gentiles. The other 12 were told to stay put:

[And for any who think I might 'being throwing Pearls' - NEVER! NEVER EVER! I have NEVER shared any of them]

Mat 10:5 These twelve [apostles] Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.

The command was "Enter ye not"

Acts 2:44-45

All the believers together had everything in common; they sold their possessions and their goods, and distributed among all in accordance with each one's need

Acts 4:32-35
The Believers Share Their Possessions

And guess whose feet the money landed at?

Act 4:19 But Peter and John [Zebedee] answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

You will want to do a thorough reseach on Peter and the two Zebedee brothers - you will be surprised]

Mat 16:23 But he [Jesus] turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. [Speaking ONLY to the twelve - and no others]

Then Paul confronts him:

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I [Paul] withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Gal 2:14 But when I [Paul] saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Acts 5:1-11
Ananias and Sapphira

And I don't mean state communism either, these teachings are totally at odds with the globalist Free Market Theology, which now dominates neo conservativism and the NEW Christian Right.

So much for 'the Christian right'

Nevertheless:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

In short the NEW Christian Right has become fascist, and Islam is fascist.

If you say so - Giaour - but it will only be your words and not the Truth.

And if there is one definition for me it is anti fascist.

Time for Christianity to get back to basics and away from self righteous extremism., if we are to prevail in the war that Islam has declared on Dar al Kufr.

Posted by: Giaour

Posted by: Beth

at May 12, 2005 3:18 AM

Time for Christianity to get back to basics and away from self righteous extremism., if we are to prevail in the war that Islam has declared on Dar al Kufr.

Could not agree more Giaour:

2Cr 10:4 The weapons [Scriptures] of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mar 13:14 When ye shall see the abomination of desolation {without life - "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - Palestine denies the Son] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT

[The name Israel is His heritage]

Mat 24:21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Only a remnant is going to make it through.

Posted by: Beth

at May 12, 2005 3:23 AM

This does have to be said

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The KEY WORD in that Scripture is 'might'

Posted by: Beth

at May 12, 2005 3:34 AM