This is another example of a tendency that has run through Islamic history: when something happens that Muslims see as a provocation, they declare jihad and use it as a pretext for jihad recruitment

What don't Muslims see as a provocation? As long as we breathe the same oxygen as the Islamic world, they will find cause to wage jihad against us. As Hugh always writes with respect to Israel, "the war without end".

Posted by: Charles Martel at May 16, 2005 10:02 AM

Why dont they come to Guantanamo Bay and get the Qur'an desecrators themselves

Beth
Now the response I promised a few threads back
I have wriitten before I am not a christian.in fact I don’t want to tie myself to any one monotheistic religions like Christianity, Islam or worship any One True God.
As unfortunately there's some confusion over who the One True God actually is. Christians believe one thing, Muslims another, and the Jewish faith is different yet again.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and Seventh-Day Jehovah's Mormons all devoutly worship the same Supreme Being. But the devil is in the details and, apart from confessing their devotion to the One True God, they can't agree on anything else. Which is very sad as this has caused a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering.
I try to respect everyone's beliefs I don't want to offend anyone in any way. But I,ll just say this. Whether in business or religion, monopolies can be a very bad thing. Monotheism seems to bring out the worst in some people
Iin practice,I cannot respect any Manifesto that enshrines man such as Mein Kampf and the Qur’an that puts Satan on a pedestal.And from there deceive, beguiling the masses to perpetrate murder and mayhem. where draconian dictatorships are imposed. where all people are indoctrinated, starting when people are no more than infants. All freedoms are obliterated. Only poverty survives. Where their mantra is always submit and obey. A thin veneer of order is maintained through fear.
I grew up being taught the scriptures of the bible and I have great respect for the holy scripture,but Polytheism, with its acceptance of many Gods and multiple beliefs, is not only more friendly and more fun, it's safer too.
Sometimes quite angry folk curse me,and tell me that the One True God is the only deity worth worshipping. How dare you worship other Gods? they ask. I usually reply by asking what all the billions of people who've worshipped these deities over the past few thousand years would say to this." I DO NOT pretend to an experts on all religions, but I can certainly point you to quite a few places in the Holy Bible where other Gods are mentioned by name."
Why else would the Lord say "Thou shalt have no other Gods but me?"

The bottom line: Just because I may worship a God of Goobligooke doesn't mean I am a lesser man or a unbeliever.Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster
I cannot condone any of the crimes being committed by muslims around the world today and the last 1400yrs in the name of Alllah
I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

Posted by: shiva at May 16, 2005 10:03 AM

I think they had better start standing down & releasing hostages or they may find lots of Qurans in the toilet.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at May 16, 2005 10:08 AM

How about we hand them over the two reporters from Newsweek and let them do the 'splainin'.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 16, 2005 10:16 AM

islam is fast approaching the point of non-invisibility. they used to be totally under the radar, but their stealth is beginning to wear thin.
If allah is so all-powerful and omnipotent, why doesnt he just smite ALL of the infidels?
For that matter, why let us little people fight amongst ourselves at all? Why dont the gods just have a friggin war, and we can all just worship the last god standing?
The koran is just a friggin book written by a flippin psychopath. it belongs in the garbage heap of bad ideas and broken hallucinogenic dreams

Posted by: joe citizen at May 16, 2005 10:19 AM

I heard on the news this AM, that Newsweek is responsible for the rioting and deaths over Quran flushing. Newsweek is responsible for no such thing...the fantatics that took to the streets are responsible. Newsweek may have been faulty, but Robert is right...any ole excuse will do to inflame passions, bring out the demons and cause trouble.
Those dullards in Afghan, who want the guilty turned over, know perfectly well that ainta gunna happen so they are then free to act up...that way they can jihad no matter what the outcome...another example of the insanity of the muslim mind...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 16, 2005 10:20 AM

Don’t they understand that most Americans treat the Qur’an with contempt.
I for example store my Qur’an in the bathroom, or I keep the Qur’an safe by setting it on the floor and beating it with the bottom of my shoe! Nothing gets your point across better then a size 12.

I had know idea the Qur’an had a “voodoo doll” like character.
I cant help but think that every time I step on my Qur’an some poor Moslem Ulema a thousand miles away is screaming in agony, causing a riot and partaking in traditional Moslem injustice masqueraded as holiness. I had made the claim before that Moslems worship Mohammad not Allah, here we see that Moslems worship a book and not just any book, but a poorly contrived one at that.

Posted by: Bar at May 16, 2005 10:44 AM

16 muslims killed by soiled wet book

impressive weapon

Posted by: PCKills! at May 16, 2005 10:52 AM

quick! air drop newsweek magazines onto every muslim land

drop bullets and guns too

Posted by: PCKills! at May 16, 2005 11:02 AM

Concocting pretext to wage jihad is as old as the doctrine itself and I would suggest is inseparable from it. The template for this codicil to the jihad doctrine was forged by Muhammed himself when he invented a pretext for the jihad against Mecca, declaring that the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah was void due to "violation" of the treaty by an allied tribe of the Meccans.

This same behavior pattern was repeatedly exhibited by the despots who ruled the Barbary States. The Bashaw of Tripoli declared a jihad on the United States in 1801 because the United States did not pay him a sufficient tribute to "secure the peace", i.e. did not pay a de facto jizya. The response of President Thomas Jefferson to the declaration of jihad against the United States is forever enshrined in the opening verse of the Marine Corps Hymn. There is plenty of room for yet another verse.

Posted by: DrMack at May 16, 2005 11:04 AM

These voodoo-like, hypersensitive Muslims, who have turned their "holy book" into a talisman and thereby have themselves desecrated it (though how one can desecrate something which is not holy in the first place, but that argument is for another time), are showing the world that their so-called religion is a cult. I posted some of the following elsewhere, and I'll post it here too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401158.html
[Registration required]:
GHAZNI, Afghanistan, May 14 -- The mullah drove back and forth past Del Agha's shop in a taxi Thursday, blaring his message through a megaphone: "Our religion and our Koran have been abused! We should all demonstrate after Friday prayers!" Agha recalled being skeptical of the May 9 report in Newsweek that the mullah was referring to, which claimed that interrogators at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had placed copies of the Koran in bathrooms and flushed one down a toilet. But the 47-year-old dried-goods seller decided to join the demonstration anyway in this small city in eastern Afghanistan. "Just as we listen to our religious leaders when they call us to pray in the mosque," Agha explained, "we have to follow them when they make other decisions for us."...

What is very revealing in all this hoopla is the last statement in the above citation from The Washington Post. Sounds cultlike to me and puts me in mind of Jim Jones.
[end of previous post]

They are mighty sensitive about the ALLEGED destruction of some paper, but they certainly don't seem to object to flying planes into buildings or to sawing heads off.

Fact, proven time and again: There is no way to reason with these jihadists. Any imagined offense fuels their psychotic hatred, and I do not doubt that they themselves would create an offense so as to have the opportunity to cry "Jihad!"

Posted by: WatchfulEye at May 16, 2005 11:05 AM

Watchfuleye:

What else could the Koran be but a Talisman, when so many of its adherents cannot even read it?

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 16, 2005 11:09 AM

Bar...does that mean if I stick a pin in my copy of Quran a riot will start in Nigeria or somewhere? This needs further investigation...certainly the military would be interested...I'm going to get some pins and try it out...if anything happens I will let you know...we might be on to something...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 16, 2005 11:09 AM

We do need to send Isikoff and Baker, and Whitaker over there to explain things.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at May 16, 2005 11:19 AM

OT
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/real_islam.jpg

Posted by: shiva at May 16, 2005 11:20 AM

When reading their "holy book", I like to use a bloody tampon as a book mark! ;)

Posted by: pinkpower at May 16, 2005 11:24 AM

The Intolerant and Militant Nature of Islam
One of the most controversial issues regarding Islam concerns whether or not it is a militant religion. Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving. Westerners who have experienced it in the Muslim world argue it is inherently in­tolerant and militant.

The Koran itself preaches intolerance toward other religions. Sura 5 contains the following command: “Take not Jews and Christians for friends . . . He among you who takes them for friends is one of them . . . Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians] . . But keep your duty to Allah” (verses 51, 55, 57). Extreme intolerance is commanded in Sura 5:33 — “[For those who do not submit to Allah] their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.”

The Koran also expresses an intolerant attitude toward any person who decides to reject the Islamic faith or convert to another religion. Such persons are to be executed (Sura 9:12). In the Hadith (the oral tradition of Muhammad’s sayings) it says “Whoever changes his religion, kill him” (Hadith 9:57). These commands are practiced in all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

With regard to militancy, the Koran not only condones it, it commands it:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and [some of] you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not (Sura 2:16).

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war (Sura 9:5).

Fight in the way of Allah . . . and slay them [the unbelievers] wherever you find them and drive them out . . . and fight them until . . . religion is for Allah (Sura 2:190-193).

Muhammad is quoted in the Hadith as saying, “The sword is the key of heaven and hell. A drop of blood in the cause of Allah — a night spent in arms [war] — is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer. Whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment, his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim.”12

To somehow defend their actions that are rooted in the Quran and the Hadith, Muslims counter by pointing to the intolerance and violence that have characterized both Jews and Christians , they point to the Christian Crusades in the Middle Ages. Using these examples, they accuse Jews and Christians of being hypocritical in attacking the in­tolerance and violence of Islam today.

What a contrast all the ghastly commands of Muhammad are to the loving words of Jesus who told Christians:

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

“Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39).

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

“However you want people to treat you, so treat them” (Mat­thew 7:12).

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39).

“This is my commandment that you love one another” (John 15:12, 17).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13).

And what a contrast it is between the admonition of Muhammad to conquer for Allah with the sword and Jesus’ exhortation to go forth in peace and appeal to people’s hearts through the preaching of the Gospel, relying on the persuasive power of God’s Holy Spirit.

Posted by: Mackie at May 16, 2005 11:24 AM

I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

You needn't repeat yourself.

Shiva, are you in India? Tell us about "the glory of Islam" and what the invading jihadis did to your great and fair land.

***********************************************

Afghan Ulema demands hand over of desecrators of Holy Quran...

Come get us yourselves, cowards.

Posted by: kj at May 16, 2005 11:26 AM

Israelis have apparently known about this tactic all along...

"Israeli man accused of planning a glider flight over Temple Mount shrine to ignite a Palestinian uprising was freed without charge."

Posted by: PCKills! at May 16, 2005 11:35 AM

Newsweek lied.
People died.

Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving

At least as much as the moon is made of green cheese. They are frustrated that normal people don't share their delusion.

Posted by: Ciggy at May 16, 2005 11:40 AM

John Simpson has dared to write an article about the Newsweek Qur'an desecration spoof.

And the current title of the article is perhaps the most ironic byline of all time: REPORTING THE TRUTH

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4551149.stm

And the overall message: Don't blame Al Jazeera, just giving its audience a report of interest. And Newsweek just reported what they heard from a source at the Pentagon, who later retracted. There is SO MUCH evidence of American anti-Muslim treatment, who can blame Muslims for taking this seriously? (And who can blame them for going crazy? And who can blame them for still being mad about this?)

The implication: Blame the United States and 'anti-Muslim' policies for the riots and the killings around the world. That is the cause. Violence for something like this, the desecration of the holy Qur'an, is simply something that is 'to be expected'.

So, just as Israel is responsible for suicide bombings, the United States is responsible for all the bombings in Iraq, all the bombings everywhere, I suppose. I suppose the United States is responsible for 9/11. Everyone already knows, of course, that the Spanish government and Bush were responsbile for Madrid. I suppose the Dutch, or Theo Van Gogh himself, are responsible for Van Gogh's murder. I suppose Aussie tourists, or better yet, America and the Jews, are responsible for Bali; America and the Jews are also to blame for Nigeria, Morroco, Turkey, Tunisia. I suppose tourists, or surely America and the Jews, are responsible for Luxor and, more recently Cairo. I suppose the Russians are responsible for Beslan. I suppose whereever there is a murder in the name of Allah, the defense of Islam, is it the fault of the victims or better yet, America and those Jews. But, do not blame Muslims. There is no global Islamic Jihad. That is an illusion. There is only reasonable reaction from peaceful people, peaceful Muslims, from a peaceful religion, to the aggressive, colonial, United States, the Nazi-like Bush, and the greedy, mean, brutality of the Jews, or the many anti-Islamic meanies around the world, like those Russians, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahais, Zoroastorians, Thais, Filipinos, Armenians, Chinese, Iraqi Christians, Lebanese Christians, Indonesian Christians, Christian missionaries, Copts, and all the rest.

Yes, indeed, one must report the truth.

Posted by: JTF at May 16, 2005 11:40 AM

Actually, I find that the pages of the Koran do not make good toilet paper. They're too stiff and the scratch!

But the do make excellent covering for the bottom of the bird cage.

Posted by: BillR at May 16, 2005 11:49 AM

The BOOK
http://www.sacredcowburgers.com/parodies/islamic_truth.jpg

Posted by: shiva at May 16, 2005 11:53 AM

Billr...
Fight Islamosis in the only civilized way...get yourself a bird...or even two...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 16, 2005 11:58 AM

It isn't Newsweek's fault, it's the fault of the Islamic savages! They are animals and time to really get a crusade going before that filth spreads even farther!

Posted by: Jakester at May 16, 2005 12:04 PM

Apx. 600 Churches have been burned to the ground in the last 7 years or so in Indonesia.
(Along with an estimated 50,000 Christians killed & 200,000 displaced.)

A conservative estimate would be that there were on average, shall we say, 100 Bibles in each Church, So that's apx 60,000 Bibles burned by 'Laskar Jihad'

Maybe the Muslims in Afghanistan should take a leaf out of our book.

In keeping with the command in Romans 12:19
"Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord."
The Indonesian Christians sat tight.
December 26th saw Gods' vengeance.

But I forget, Allah, unlike Yahweh, is impotent and so needs marauding genocidal hoardes to do his bidding.

Good day everyone,
Kc

Posted by: kc England at May 16, 2005 12:05 PM

It's nice to see that we have not lost our senses of humor around here.

Life goes on despite Islamists and other fanatics. I'm sure that must really make them ready to murder someone, to hear that....

Posted by: Foehammer at May 16, 2005 12:06 PM

Time for a quick limerick:

In Gitmo Bay there was a koran
Muslims claimed was flushed down the pan
Although having no proof
They still hit the roof
And rioted in Afghanistan

Posted by: Elephant at May 16, 2005 12:07 PM

Dhimmis writer at National Review suggests that not only should Newsweek have kept their mouth shut but so should have Salmon Rushdie and Theo Van Gogh. Did I read that correctly?
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/comment/marshall200505160837.asp

Posted by: JasonP at May 16, 2005 12:11 PM

I hope no one starts flushing korans down the loo in New York. Lots of people swear blind the sewers there are crawling with alligators. The last thing we need is loads of massive reptiles with teeth like sabres converting to Islam.

Posted by: Elephant at May 16, 2005 12:13 PM

While it may not be Newsweak's fault as some say, it is their fault for being in the business of blaming America for every ill in the world. The islamic mob needs to go to work and produce something, then they wouldn't have time to riot all the time.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 12:15 PM

"Christians believe one thing...Islam..."

If Christians spill blood? Are they Christians? Find their own writings that will support them.

If Muslims spill blood? are they still Muslims? There are an abundance of writings in the Koran that will support them.

shiva said..

As unfortunately there's some confusion over who the One True God actually is.

There is a God Who DEMANDS that ALL humans treat each other as they themselves want to be treated.

And then there are many other kinds of gods.

The beauty of the times that we live in - is that the One Who preaches Peace - has protected His followers with "Freedom of Religion" {but is being ruined by Islam.

shiva...

I try to respect everyone's beliefs I don't want to offend anyone in any way.

The world would be a better pace if ALL behaved the same. But that is not reality. shiva - even if you don't believe in ANY god - you [even all athiests] have only 2 choices:

Fight back with the Truth -

or lie down and let Islam overcome - whose laws are BRUTAL!

shiva said

starting when people are no more than infants

That statement is not to be under-estimated!

But we have to start somewhere - don't we?

shiva said...

Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster

No - it doesn't. Not as far as I'm concerned.

shiva said..

I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam

So am I !!!! Others may be just as disgusted [but not more than me] over what happened to the Jews under a vicious TYRANT!!!

but coming now into the present times:

Islam is using Hitlor to further their cause!

Because - the world keeps claiming Hitler was a Christian.

Was he? Give the Scriptures that say he was. Until then - it is a great lie!

On the other hand - Are the Muslims who slaughter behaving as true Muslims?

Their own Koran - will undeniably - say YES!

I want to show something that I posted to libbysmom - who got the immppression that I was advocating genocide against the Jews.

I will post that right here - but in a separate post....here goes

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 12:59 PM

object to Beth's advocacy of genocide against Jews in Israel, and suddenly, I am supporting Islam?

Posted by: libbysmom

I am their BIGGEST defender!

Why are you understanding me backwards? [I ask humbly]

Here is the Proof:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The Koran forgot to mention Palestine.

The Lord of the Bible did not.

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

[That is one reason why the 'Christian' leaders hate me so much - believe it or not. They are the "Diversity" and "Tolerance" preachers]

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Luk 11:23 He that is not with me is against me.

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations.

Mat 24:21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Palestine was condemned A LONG TIME AGO!

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. {Song of Moses - the saints 'sing' this song} Rev 15:3

The poorest and ONLY argument the defeders of Islam have - is "Religion" has nothing to do with Palestine"

Oh but it does!

The God Who condemns ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE BETWEEN HUMANS - CONDEMNS THE KORAN!

The Prophecy about Palestine [one of the oldest] proves allah is not God.

For the REAL God didn't forget to mention Palestine for end times.

I hope you see how powerful this is libbysmom.

I hope everyone sees how powerful this is!

2Pe 1:21 The prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?

2Pe 1:19 We have a more sure Word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed. [Eternal Life is at stake]

If people can be made to understand [ALL people who know there is a Creator of heaven and earth]made to understand - that it is Eternal Life that is at stake - Islam will fall.

And why not? Look at the fruits it does bear!

shiva - help me to spread these truths.

I believe they are the Jews only hope.

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 1:02 PM

I won't be posting much longer here [but will always check out Jihad Watch. It is good website for keeping the people posted on what is going on]

But I plan to move on - to spread the Truth.

Peaple either join in and take up the cause - or they can lie down - and we can ALL fall under the BRUTAL laws of Islam

Beth

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 1:09 PM

I have stated several times that "of course" the liberal media is on the side of islam.

Islam is using the techniques of the liberal left's 1970's advancement. The liberal left thinks that here is "another allie" to help. Because the liberal left has helped advance so many special interest groups (you name them). So here is another, so the left has helped advance them. The left looks at islam and realizes that islam is doing a great job by theirselves, because the left already broke trail and the trail is on the map.

So occasionally you get someone on the left that individually wants to run a little help "article" of the islam "cause". Only problem is the left gets surprised on occasion that this "new cause" actually believes the propaganda that they put out, and they are willing to kill with rage.

The left (and many on the right) will not know until it is to late that this "monster" will not stop at anything.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at May 16, 2005 1:15 PM

Beth~ good luck in all you do! You will be missed.

Posted by: Gary at May 16, 2005 1:15 PM

Sorry to see you go ,Beth...you know a lot and try harder than most anyone...admirable...
Unfortunatly truth is not only hard to come by, when you get it and try to pass it on, the people that need to hear(understand) it, got their truth shields up...you almost need a truth sand blaster to erode away wrong thinking and denial. It's easy when you are only dealing with yourself...simply, always tell "yourself", the truth and always do whats right...but try to convince a wrong headed hardhead, and you have immediate difficulties...but, that is no reason to quit or not to try...right actions sooner or later bring right results...good luck on what you will do next...swami

Posted by: duh_swami at May 16, 2005 1:20 PM

Shiva (also spelled Siva, Sanskrit: शिव) is a form of God in Hinduism.

I came back to let shiva know - that I can present all kinds of Scriptures from the Old and New Testament - that will support his believe.

I too - believe there is a destroyer - one that this world knows nothing about.

Gary? --So will you! I miss you.

I will miss everyone - even ia786 [smile ia]

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 1:39 PM

correction

Gary? --So will I miss you too

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 1:41 PM

It's easy when you are only dealing with yourself...simply, always tell "yourself", the truth and always do whats right...but try to convince a wrong headed hardhead, and you have immediate difficulties

swami

If we only deal with and for ourselves - what good is it?
we will have 'lost our flavor'

We just have to be persistant. The onles who want to lord over us - with brutality - are very persistant. So - keep up the good fight.

I miss you swami.

Posted by: Beth at May 16, 2005 1:45 PM

These people are psychotic.

Posted by: ReligionOfPeaceMyArse at May 16, 2005 1:47 PM

For the record: John Simpson's scandalous editorial on the desecration spoof has disappeared from the ONLINE FRONT PAGE, where it received top billing with a photo of Simpson. I can't find it anywhere now. Even the BBC must have shuddered at that ridiculous piece of nonsense, which proves one more time to the world that the powerful John Simpson, is an anti-American, pro-Islam lunatic.

In its place one finds the more tame:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4551683.stm

Now we get babble about journalistic ethics from the BBC. Now that really is the crux of the matter, isn't it? Millions of Muslims get 'inflamed', riots, killings, over a book and a toilet, and the problem is journalistic ethics. Man, now that just makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

Good going BBC, way to keep the public informed about crucial, relevant, cutting edge issues.

Posted by: JTF at May 16, 2005 1:50 PM

Newsweek will never be read in my house again. Lets start an active boycott of that islamofacist rag.

Posted by: Pegcity at May 16, 2005 2:31 PM

Beth, check in every so often. You will be missed.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 2:40 PM

"Newsweek will never be read in my house again. Lets start an active boycott of that islamofacist rag."

Posted by: Pegcity

Same here Pegcity, I stopped my subscription a year ago. It is a shame too, after 9-11 it was a really good source for information on the jihad. I looked forward to getting it. Same for Vanity Fair, now it is so left leaning I refuse to read it.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 2:44 PM

Pegcity
Newsweek done more good than harm
It has provoked the Muslims to expose themselves
and more people have been made more aware of the Islamic threat.Think about it!!

Posted by: shiva at May 16, 2005 2:49 PM

OUR BRAVE SOILDERS MAY PAY THE PRICE FOR NEWSWEAK AND OTHER LIBERAL MEDIA OUTLETS BECAUSE THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE BUSH LOOK BAD.THAN ABOUT THE WORLD WINNING THE WAR ON AHOLES.BOYCOTT EM HELL YES,BUT MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE LIKE CAMPAIGNS TO GET FOLKS TO CANCEL THERE SUBSCRIPTION ECT.. ADVERTISERS NEED TO BE PRESSURED TO RESPOND ALSO CAUSE ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN.

Posted by: OSAMA SWALLOWS at May 16, 2005 3:02 PM

It seems to me that to expose the true face of Islam, we should do everything in our power to outrage every Muslim in the world.

A risk? Yes, but a necessary one in light of the dhimmitude of the govwernment. Muslim threats will awaken a national concern and show that appeasement to Muslims only creates more problems.

Lure the jihadists out of the woodwork where they can be seen for who they really are.

Posted by: BillR at May 16, 2005 3:18 PM

Here's a modest proposal: what about we give them the two reporters from Newsweek in exchange for the same number of Al-Qaeda members still at large in Afghanistan.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 16, 2005 3:38 PM

Listen live to Michael Medved now discussing the flushing -

http://www2.krla870.com/listen/

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 3:41 PM

Mr.Simpson is your typical hate America first,apologist and appeaser reflecting the usual ignorance about Islam that most of the media appears to do on a daily basis. Stop looking at the world of Islam through those rose colored glasses.

Mr. Simpson; why don't you write about the arrest of over 100 Christians in Saudia Arabia by their religious police and the confiscation of over 40 bibles, and yes what did they do with those bibles in Saudia Arabia? ---My friends the silence is deafening ,but the near hint of desecration of the Quran and every Dhimmi is out there trying to apologize for what may not have even happened. Sorry but a religion that preaches hate against Christians and Jews does not get any of my sympathy whatsoever. We don't need to play paddy cake with people who rage with anti-semitism at every turn through the teachiings of the sura and the hadith . Wake up ! These people will have no problem taking out the bible and destroying it right in front of the cameras' if it has happened yet.

Posted by: Mackie at May 16, 2005 4:10 PM

I spent time in Camp Delta dealing with the detainees and I must say that when I first heard the allegations, I laughed. How stupid! There is more than one person involved in the interrogation process. The interrogators are only allowed to interrogate in authorized areas and the interrogations are under constant supervision by third parties. This would mean that the detainee would be taken to a bathroom not authorized for detainees and staff use while someone flushed pages of the Quran down the toilet in order to get them to talk.
First of all, it’s an ineffective interrogation approach. Second, procedures are so scrutinized and micromanaged that many people would have their heads on a chopping block. Third, if this occurred, why didn’t the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) publish these finding before Newsweek? They conduct personal interviews with the detainees and none of these allegations were reported. Every step was taken to ensure that the detainees were treated fairly.

See below link;
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/678FK8?OpenDocument&style=custo_print

Once again, reporters and writers will believe any account just to get a breaking news article. American people, let’s get smart. It’s clear that we need to corroborate similar topics with pure, unadulterated fact; period.

As for the riots in Afghanistan, they probably were instigated by some so-called scholar with internet access. Remember, Afghanistan is still stuck in the 1960’s when it comes to modernization. I spent 4 months in Kabul and it was not uncommon to see animal drawn carriages and meet elders who have never seen a cell phone. Uninformed Afghans are very impressionable. A lot of merit was placed in this Newsweek article because it was viewed as credible compared to their media sources. After all, Americans will do and say anything for a buck!

Posted by: marine02xx at May 16, 2005 4:10 PM

Now, I'm just thinking out loud here, but what about a National (dare I hope, Internationl?) Koran-Flushing Day, celebrated, say, on May 10th (just to pick a day). Everyone can stock on Korans and as soon as the clock strikes 12 midnight, start those pages tearing and the flush handle pumping!!! Maybe have it start off in....drum roll...Flushing, Queens, NY.

One other comment: I believe the Miami Herald had reports about Koran stomping and perhaps some flushing in March.

Really, I'm of two minds about this flushing business: On the one hand, I believe religious views of others should be treated with respect (if possible and when not too inconvenient); on the other hand, they are Moslems. What to do?

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 16, 2005 4:26 PM

Do people really believe that Newsweek has denied this story as true?

What Newsweek actually said:

"we believed our story was newsworthy because a U.S. official said government investigators turned up this evidence [of the desecration]."

"Our original source later said he couldn't be certain about reading of the alleged Qur'an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts."

IE: the story has not been denied. It is probably more than confirmed considering that this incident fits in perfectly with the pattern of abuse and torture that the US international prison system has become reknowned for.

Posted by: Shukri at May 16, 2005 4:34 PM

Beth,

Take care. Thanks for chipping in, girl.

No doubt you'll be out there spreading the word about the danger of Islam. Keep it up!

Posted by: Elephant at May 16, 2005 4:34 PM

First, Islam has to hand over all terrorists and the rest of their folks who attack and murder people of other religions or kill women for honor "crimes"! Then maybe we might let them talk to the "suspects". But I wouldn't hand over Jeffrey Dahmer to those savages!

Posted by: Jakester at May 16, 2005 4:37 PM

Isn't the leader of Afghanistan called Khazi?

For all you Yanks this is a British slang word for loo, strangely enough.

Also the Khyber Pass is a Rhyming slang word for bottom, as in giving someone a kick up the Khyber.

Posted by: Elephant at May 16, 2005 4:38 PM

We the people of the United States of America demand of all muslim countries to hand over all individuals whom have burned a United States Flag. This is heresy to our way of life and they have insulted the people of this great land and culture. Here they will be judged by Human Beings with a conscience and be thrown behind bars without a chance for paroll.
If you do not do this within three days, we will declare May 19 as a new US Holdiay of Quran Book Flushing/Burning pit day.

The Pathtic part is, we would likely have 1/3 of the muslim population behind bars.

Posted by: Avatar at May 16, 2005 4:42 PM

I just got to thinking (again) and if there's one thing this incident proves as much as any other in recent years, it's that the Muslims need more jobs, more sex, more responsibilities, more comedians and more beach and mountain getaways.

Is there a group of people on the planet that ismore tightly wound and ready to form into a mob at the drop of a hat than Islamists?

When your entire existence is so tied up in a cult that preaches hate rhetoric and violence, incidents like this recent riot are the result and frighteningly commonplace.

So is terrorism.

Posted by: Foehammer at May 16, 2005 4:45 PM

Shukri,

Actually I bought a Koran from Barnes and Noble last night.

I've stepped on it, peed on some of the pages I tore out of it, had dog shit wrapped it, and I've still got pages left. I think a red marking pen with my thoughts on the inside cover might go well, you know, sort of a book signing party.

If you'd like to borrow it, I'll it ship over to ya so you can smell it.

Nice binding though.

Posted by: BillR at May 16, 2005 5:00 PM

I thought you were better than that, Bill. I hope that you are...

Posted by: Shukri at May 16, 2005 5:01 PM

Shukri,
When the Koran becomes better....so will BillR

Posted by: HaiJaeger at May 16, 2005 5:19 PM

FOX BREAKING NEWS:---16:12-PACIFIC STANDARD TIME

NEWSWEEK OFFICIALLY RETRACTS STORY OF KORAN DESECRATION AT GITMO.

Posted by: Mackie at May 16, 2005 5:23 PM

How does this news not draw as much outrage as the flushing of the Koran?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/16/iraq.main/index.html

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi police have found at least 55 corpses in six locations, including those from a dozen men executed Sunday, police said."

Makes absolutely zero sense to me...

Moose

Posted by: Moose at May 16, 2005 5:26 PM

Shukri,
Wow, the US did not even react that violently to 911. What an examle those muslims are setting from their behaviour. The world is looking at how foolish those drones are acting at the goading from their imans.

Posted by: HaiJaeger at May 16, 2005 5:30 PM

Shukri,

You said, "I thought you were better than that, Bill. I hope that you are..."

Actually I'm not. Couldn't read any of that scrawley Arab stuff so what was I to do?

The truth is, I hold your "One True God" in real contempt along with his prophet, what's his face, the pedophile.

In fact, my neighbors don't much care for him either now that I've enlightened them. But maybe you could do a little damage control in my neighborhood. You know - door to door, sort of spread the good word and all, that is if they don't beat the living !@#t out of you.

Not me, them, and I could watch and explain to the police how you assaulted them, sort of how you like to twist the truth to further your agenda.

I've said it before and I'll say it again Shukri - there's a storm coming and you won't want to be outdoors when it starts to rain.

Posted by: BillR at May 16, 2005 5:47 PM

We should demand that Muslims put their own Koran in toilet water. And if they refuse to do so, we should bomb them. Enough already.

Posted by: metaxy at May 16, 2005 5:50 PM

Shukri,

In fact I support a growing and angry group who think Mecca should be slagged.

Posted by: BillR at May 16, 2005 5:50 PM

Posted by: shiva “The bottom line: Just because I may worship a God of Goobligooke doesn't mean I am a lesser man or a unbeliever.Just because I may believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn,does not make me a monster
I cannot condone any of the crimes being committed by muslims around the world today and the last 1400yrs in the name of Alllah
I am strongly opposed to Nazism and Islam “

Shiva

I liked your posting. I personally believe that there is more than one path to the golden gate. As far as mono vs. polytheism, I am of the opinion that there is probably just one “God”, but there is many aspects to him. How can any of us truly know for sure. It is a bit like a painting trying to describe the painter. But at any rate, “he” is not limited by his creation, nor by what any of his creations think of him.

Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at May 16, 2005 5:51 PM

Not only do I see the ugliness of society among Islamists. I see it here as well. The disgusting, offensive remarks here are shocking. Some of you, who are intelligent here, sit in silence. The use of tiolet humour, and profanity hopefully does not reflect your intelligence. Many of you are broken records, who constantly complain, but probably do very little but hide behind your desk. Become articulate and lobby congressman, and spread your message in a strategic way, not in a way that will ensure your alienation.

"We should demand that Muslims put their own Koran in toilet water. And if they refuse to do so, we should bomb them. Enough already."

Really? This sounds like the an old Nazi practice of requiring Jews to burn their yamulkes, Torah's and to cut their ear locks and beards.

I have concluded that many of you are no better than Nazi's. Instead of working in a measured way, as Robert or Hugh Fitzgerald would, you reduce yourselves to this kind of discourse. You will never succeed following this path. Islamists will win, and the far left will help ensure its victory.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 6:30 PM

May 16, 2005
Who says liberals are not dangous people 17 dead so far how many wonded because they wanted to Damage President Bush??? Remember isaicoff is a BUTT Monkey!!!
http://www.beecy.net/frank/
I know where newsweek got the story and twisted it!!! Remember when they interviewed some of those who worked @ GETMO one soldier who worked there said how dangous these monsters were soldier said they throw feeizes and one Islamic terrorist stuffed his quran down the tolit to cause a flood ?? It was not an American, but an Islamic terrorist who did this!!!
Newsweek is now responsible for every one killed by mulsums!!!

Qur’an 8:49 “When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ‘The religion has deceived and misled them.’”

I think this fits for the Islamic terrorist who make war on the people look what ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] saddam[FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD] has brought to the people sader[YELLOW COWARD WHO KILLS MEN IN THEIR HOLY MOSQUE] all have brought death and destruction to the people not life and joy no these who follow the lies like out of newsweek aljerreza will all head for death and the yellow cuse!!
LOOK AT WHAT THESE HYPOCRATES HAVE BROUGHT TO THE FOLLOWERS A YELLOW CURSE!!

REMEMBER THOSE KILLING IN THE STREETS WERE ubl[] followers who were just let out of jail a few weeks ago??
Why did these people take to the streets after they blew up mosques in Pakistaan or Iraq where were these people on they are the followers of the Yellow cursed Coward!!!

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ‘What does the Lord intend by this?’ The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”
This can be broken by Yes it is the Army of the people of the Book who he has chosen to Free [USA] the Iraqi people as it says

He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.”

Yes he has chosen the USA!!
TO FREE THE IRAQI PEOPLE FROM THE MONSTER saddam [FOUND IN A HOLE DON’T SHOOT I’M A YELLOW COWARD]

And let’s look at another part?

The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases,

Ubl,saddam,zawari,all who Kill and destroy mankind?

There will be no more warnings?
Earthquake in Iran kills 31,000 who harbors ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] son and wife’s??
And now Locus in Egypt
NOW IF THAT IS NOT TELLING YOU ARE ON THE WRONG PATH NOTHING WILL??
Kazakhstan Blast in mine??
Islamic terrorist- killing Iraqis??
Earthquake in Algeria??
The typhoon in Philippines Remember they ran away from the Fight in Iraq??
http://www.onlypunjab.com/fullstory1104-insight-Pink+Locusts+from+North+Africa-status-15-newsID-503.html
Pink Locusts from North Africa Swarm Through Cairo
Publish Date : 11/18/2004 5:09:00 PM Source : Science and Technology News Onlypunjab.com
Swarms of pink locusts swept through the Egyptian capital on Wednesday, evoking the biblical description of the plagues which struck in the time of Moses.
The swarms of millions flew high above tall towers or swooped down onto treelined streets, where scared pedestrians stamped
on them or ran for cover.
The flying insects arrived from neighboring Libya after devouring the countryside in central and western Africa in past months.
YES I SAY ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] is losing and trying to regain control??
What verses did he say in his rambling and to say about the people of the book??
The people of
the book didn’t lose their crops??
Now Earthquake of mulsum Islands of Indonesia?? 9.3 and afterwards mass killer waves that effect many countries?/
Who is coming to the aid of the people But the Red Cross and India to help the people and Israel and the USA and the Western countries!!

115,ooo, mulsum killed in Indonesia alone?? Whole mulsum towns gone?? And Churches still standing??

We are waiting for the mulsums to help other mulsums?? Or with the entire fund raising they do help people instead of making war??
And now more 6.2 earthquakes in Indonesia?? Because they have sent Islamic terrorist to terrorize the victims of the killer wave??

January 11, 2005 Philippines an 4.3 Earthquake ??
Maybe small there because the fight against Islamic Terrorist??
Was ubls[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] family in Indonesia we know they support Islamic Terrorist??

Qur’an 8:71 “If they try to deceive you,

remember they have deceived Allah before.”
It is not America who is the Deceiver but the Islamic Terrorist Look at what God has done to his Followers Look at Bam, Indoneias, Iraq [NOW HA RUNNING WATER IN HOMES FOR THE FRIST TIME IN HISTORY THANKS TO THE USA NOT sader], Africa [MULSUMS KILLING MULSUMS] no these Islamic terrorist are the deceivers!!!

WHEN WILL WE TURN OVER THE PEOPLE FROM NEWS WEEK???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO VITROY[FREEDOM] TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at May 16, 2005 6:50 PM

Thomas,

It's true that some of us resort to toilet humor to dispel the shock that comes from Islamic states that wish death and destruction upon the rest of mankind who doesn't follow their God, but it's pretty understandable when our very own government seems to bend over backward in accommodating those same individuals and heads of countries who smile to our faces, yet turns around and stabs us in the back with a knife.

The rhetoric you read here, though you call it ugly, is merely the anger at the constant bombardment of evils coming from the Islamic countries. It's anger at feeling that your own country is selling you out. It's anger from the lack of reporting from the general media outlets who, along with our leaders, are bending over and allowing these unspeakable events to take place.

I am proud to live in a country where I can burn any book should I feel the urge or flush it down the toilet, too. The simple fact that there should be a book of any sort that cannot be torn, burned, flushed, stepped on, or used to prop up a coffee table is unbelievable. There is no book that should be held that high, no matter who wrote it.

I think there's actually something to all of the talk, too. I feel that since it is every American's right to flush a Qur'an down the toilet, we should! We should do whatever we can to enrage and enflame the Muslim world and then sit back as they shake their fists skyward. Eventually, as we'll inevitably see on TV, Islam will show it's ugly face and perhaps their anger will someday match ours, the readers of this site.

Tell that to those who parade throughout the streets burning our flag, burning bibles, and chanting 'death to America'. Be sure to let them know that in this country, we're free to do whatever we want with our books and we don't need to kill anybody in the process.

Posted by: illustr8rg8r at May 16, 2005 7:14 PM

Same here Pegcity, I stopped my subscription a year ago. It is a shame too, after 9-11 it was a really good source for information on the jihad. I looked forward to getting it. Same for Vanity Fair, now it is so left leaning I refuse to read it.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 16, 2005 02:44 PM

ALL THE MORE REASON NEWSWEAK IS RESPONSABLE FOR THE DEATHS THEY KNEW ABOUT WHAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST ARE ABOUT AND HOW THIS WOULD BE RECIVED IN THE MULSUM WORLD[WEATHER THEY KNEW WHAT A TOLIT WAS OR NOT] NO NEWSWEAK IS GUILTY! GULITY! GULITY! OF TREAON!!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[INCLUDING DUMB LIBS WHO GET PEOPLE KILLED]OPEN THE WORLDS EYES GIVE THEM COURAGE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS EVIL AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at May 16, 2005 7:21 PM

Look illustr8rg8r:

I completely support everyones right to do what they must with the Qur'an. Readers should consider however that the comments made can be seen by all, including JihadWatch's enemies. Such comments before have been used to denigrate Robert and JihadWatch. So lets be responsible.

We are all angry, as a Muslim I am angry too at the cesspool that Islam is. But why can't that anger be focused properly? Lets analyse intelligently. What I am seeing here is mob mentatlity.

Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 7:22 PM

Thomas,

I thank you for your comments and your level-headed return comment. I agree that any anger towards the evils happening in the name of religion should be dealt with constructively, but how is it possible? I'd like to believe that most people can be reasoned with and that the mob mentality witnessed here should be constructive rather than destructive, but we're witnessing a mob mentality from those whom we are angered by and the reactions by people posting here is simply a knee-jerk reaction from most, I'm sure.

As a Muslim, what do you suggest? Give us a good, long, hard look into a Muslim's mind concerning how to properly discuss what seems, by most, to be madness? I'm sure that everyone reading here would be delighted to discuss things rationally and remove the toilet talk if it felt or only seemed like there was a realistic way of dealing with the issues at hand.

Posted by: illustr8rg8r at May 16, 2005 7:39 PM

Thomas - re write your Koran - take out the vilification of infidels in it, and maybe this anger will go away.

What do you think that anger will turn into when some Mufti Cleric Human "Drone" will let off a dirty nuke in the West?

Also - what did you say to the NZ parliment? Is it on Hansard or written down somewhere for all to see?

Thanks

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 16, 2005 7:44 PM

agree that any anger towards the evils happening in the name of religion should be dealt with constructively, but how is it possible?

Very easily. Follow the lead of Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald. Avoid the use of profanity or insults. Arguments then become devastatingly effective. Using insults and overly broad generalisations weakens arguments. Re-read the approaches of these two men, they say in an intelligible, consiec and anaytical way what most of you/us mean.

Kia ora 3rd time:

Also - what did you say to the NZ parliment? Is it on Hansard or written down somewhere for all to see?

Its on Thusday Morning at 9:30am before the Foriegn Affairs and Trade Seelct Committee. It is a public hearing. Probably a few people from MFAT and NZSIS and maybe some defence people will be there. I am not sure on the Hansard issue. I have also discovered that FIANZ, the New Zealand version of CAIR will be presenting submissions on weakening the Terrorism Suppression Act. I expect the Committee to be very receptive to my submissions. Peter Dunne of United Future is Chair the only real worry will be Keith Locke, who staunchly opposed aspects of the Act. I will give an update Thursday afternoon on how it went. Keep in mind that the Committee issues a report as well, and will likely comment on the submissions and their usefullness.

Cheers
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 7:53 PM

Thomas you bag all for the "mob mentality", yet when Taneem, your local "friendly" neighbourhood Muslim was threatening all and sundry here with bashings and death (unless they agreed with him)neither you, nor ia, nor any of the other Muslim posters pulled him into line - despite posting to others.

Your lack of standing up to such Muslims is either epidemic, or alternatively, you secretly do support an Islamic World government, that will trample people's rights. And then you wonder why people here get angry? You "peacful" Muslims say one thing, yet do another. It’s tantamount to Double Speak.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 16, 2005 7:53 PM

3rdtime:

Not sure where your hostility is coming from. I have always been respectful in my remarks and postings to you. If you think the above remarks (from non-Muslims) are acceptable than perhaps you are being shortsighted. These views, and their vulgarity do not help JihadWatch.
Thomas you bag all for the "mob mentality", yet when Taneem, your local "friendly" neighbourhood Muslim was threatening all and sundry here with bashings and death (unless they agreed with him)neither you, nor ia, nor any of the other Muslim posters pulled him into line - despite posting to others.

The difference 3rdtime is that Tameem, Ia and Shukri represent extreme minority views. And I have gone fater their views on many ocassion, paricularly IA and shukri. I have challenged their ideas, and engaged them on debate on previous threads.

I do not speak in doublespeak. I have been very frank as to my own feelings on Jihad and Islam. Frankly I am tired of being accused of deception. There is no basis for that allegation. My actions and words say otherwise.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:00 PM

Islam is a load of bull…woman don’t have rights…they worship a prophet? etc
And on top of that they start a riot because they “heard that someone supposedly flushed a qurann down the toilet? How many fringing times have I heard them bad mouth the bible and our religion? Do we go around killing people? I don’t think so BUT their religion incites hate towards non muslims therefore they have the right to criticize anyone.

Posted by: bible_is_the_truth at May 16, 2005 8:04 PM

Islam is a load of bull…woman don’t have rights…they worship a prophet? etc
And on top of that they start a riot because they “heard that someone supposedly flushed a qurann down the toilet? How many fringing times have I heard them bad mouth the bible and our religion? Do we go around killing people? I don’t think so BUT their religion incites hate towards non muslims therefore they have the right to criticize anyone.

Posted by: bible_is_the_truth at May 16, 2005 8:04 PM

3rd time:

Your lack of standing up to such Muslims is either epidemic, or alternatively, you secretly do support an Islamic World government. You "peacful" Muslims say one thing, yet do another.

You cannot point to one ocassion where I have done this. I have dedicated myself to fighting this fight on all fronts, and have done so. Please, I beg you point to one time where i have done this. .

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:05 PM

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003162.php

islam=cult=fascism=nazi

Posted by: butterfly at May 16, 2005 8:06 PM

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003162.php

islam=cult=fascism=nazi

Posted by: butterfly at May 16, 2005 08:06 PM

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
Amin Al Husseini In Berlin during WWII
Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution
Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII
Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941
Christian Serbian Genocide
Husseini’s Personal Project [xxvi]
300,000
Non-Muslim
Deaths
Today…
Amin Al Husseini meets Croat Nazi A.Artukovic and M.Budak during WWII
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Muslim Troops. 1943.
1943
Nazi Muslims [xxix]
“Cream Of Islam”
Bosnian Muslim Flag Under Amin Al Husseini
Amin Al Husseini creates the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he calls ‘the cream of Islam’. It becomes the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participates actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. [xxx] Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in official statement prepared by Heinrich Himmler, head of SS Nazi troops
Amin Al Husseini Coaching on of his Muslim Nazi Soldier 1943
1943
Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government
Visits Nazi Death Camp with Head of SS H.Himmler
Amin Al Husseini Meets Chief Commander of Nazi SS: Heinrich Himmler.
Amin Al-Husseini is made Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government by Nazi regime. His headquarters are in Berlin.
He plans construction of concentration camp [xxxii] in Nablus (Palestine) to implement the “final solution” in Palestine to exterminate the Jews there, as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Mufti becomes close friend of Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS (Nazi Officers). Amin Al-Husseini is given a private tour of Aushwitz death camp by Himmler[xxxiii], where he insists on seeing first-hand the murder of Europe’s Jews.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref33
Nazi View of Islamic Religion
Head of Nazi SS troops Heinrich Himmler stated to Chief of Nazi propaganda Josef Goebbels:
“ [I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” [xxxiv]
Islamic Institute in Dresden, Germany
Nazi Islam
Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]
Mufti Addresses Bosnian Muslim Nazi Troops
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Islamo-Nazi Troops in Bosnia during WWII.
March 1, 1944. Amin Al-Husseini makes speech from Berlin addressing Muslim SS Nazi troops: “Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.” [xxxvi]
Amin Al Husseini Recruiting Muslims To Serve Nazi Regime.
Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood:
Post-World War II Voice of Amin Al-Husseini
1944-1974
From Amin Al-Husseini to Yasser Arafat

Go to this sight pictures and every thing will open your eyes to the threat we are up against REMEMBER THEY KILLED MORE CHRISTIANS THE JEWS!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[NEWSWEEK] AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at May 16, 2005 8:21 PM

Thomas

You use the "argumentum ad Hitlerem" regularly. What if Nazis were now an increasing global threat, and I said, "we should demand that Nazis put their swastikas and Mein Kampfs in toilet water, etc."? Same difference. The Koran merits no respect. It in fact merits rational revulsion and suppression, just as Mein Kampf would if Nazis were brewing as much deadly pernicious trouble as Muslims are worldwide.

The only people resembling Nazis nowadays are Muslims; and the only people resembling the passive Germans who looked the other way as trains carrying human cargo went through their villages are the "moderate" Muslims.

Posted by: metaxy at May 16, 2005 8:27 PM

Great Catherine the hypocrite:

There's a difference between sounding like a nazi and being one.

No one on this cite would not say that about a Muslim who sounded like a Jihadi, spouting of jihadist rhetoric, and how Americans and Jews deserve death or deportation. A Muslim who supports or "sounds like" a jihadist is a jihadist.

Not dissimilarly, those who support the above arguments about forcing Muslims to place their Qur'ans in the toilet, or otherwise killing them are akin to Nazi's who employed similar practices on Jews with respect to yamulkes and the Talmud. If you believe in what the Nazi's did or supprt their practices you are one, just like a Muslim who supports Jihad is a terrorist. Or do you not believe that a Muslim who merely says he believes in Jihad and killing non-believers is a terrorist. Of course you do, and so do I. But to not apply that analagy to the instant scenario is hypocritical.

No there is not, there is an inextrincable link. If you believe or support "nazi ideology" by definition you are a Nazi. Muslims who support Jihad ideology are akin to Nazi's.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:30 PM

Thomas,

I would like to thank you once again. I appreciate your words of caution towards the usage of foul language and insults in discussion and, you are correct that it's more effective for one's argument. We should all follow the guides that Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald are.

I have been reading through this site and others for awhile, but have only today began writing and posting comments. I guess I was just fed up enough to jump into the mix of things. In my few postings, I have avoided using language that may be detrimental towards my arguments or comments and will continue to do so in the future unless I see some humor in it -let's face it: sometimes the choice is either laugh or cry when faced with the horrors of humanity and some choose the former over the latter. Though filled with some well deserved venom, you've got to admit that BillR throws a few good zingers around.

The sad fact is that as long as we feel that we're banging our heads into a collective wall when dealing with what Islam is today, we will continue to have such debates.

Getting to the matter of the article above and the desecration of the Qur'an (or not if it didn't happen) are they willing to hand over everybody we've ever seen on TV burning a bible? What if everyone on this site uses a Qur'an instead of a toilet brush -are they all coming after us? If you're a Muslim, you're 'in' so are you going to let us in on what's being said in the mosques about what's going to happen in three days when 'it's on'? We may all use that freedom in being able to do whatever with any printed version of whatever book and do whatever we want with it, so how is it possible to argue with people who feel they're superior and they're living by the eternal word of their God ...and it's causing a mess of things with the rest of us?

Posted by: illustr8rg8r at May 16, 2005 8:32 PM

Though filled with some well deserved venom, you've got to admit that BillR throws a few good zingers around.

Absolutely. Humour is important to get us through this debate. Being confronted with an ideology of hatred and death, humoir presents much needed relief. I just hate to see the site going into the doldrums. I remember PMU's Omid Safi, using reader comments against Robert Spencer. And other critics attacking Robert for reader comments with respect to the Armanious murders. As someone recently said, we are in Robert's "house. Lets behave as house guests. While never keeping our collective minds off of the real goal to show the world the threat that Jihad and Islam pose. But to convince others, we must act intelligently.

If you're a Muslim, you're 'in' so are you going to let us in on what's being said in the mosques about what's going to happen in three days when 'it's on'? We may all use that freedom in being able to do whatever with any printed version of whatever book and do whatever we want with it, so how is it possible to argue with people who feel they're superior and they're living by the eternal word of their God ...and it's causing a mess of things with the rest of us?

We know what is being said in mosques, and it is not good. We have established in New Zealand a Khutbah monitoring project, that is being compiled as we speak. The hatred is immeasurable.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:38 PM

Thomas:

You are making the classic apologist mistakes, and living in the "politically correct" world that has and still is (unfortunately) allowing the evil future that surrounds Islam to envelop more and more of the globe.

You can strive to be polite and gentlemanly all you wish, but this would not save you if you ever fell into the hands of a mob that had just read an article about the "flushing of a Koran" and that mob happened to recognize you as a Westerner at the worst of moments.

You are also so completely wrong about everyone here not *doing* anything about these problems. These discusions *are* doing something -- they are spreading the word, they are causing discussion and argument, they are spreading information and, above all, they are showing truths to at least a portion of the world that you just simply do not get in the mainstream media -- mainly because most media outlets don't want to get firebombed by a random, pissed off Islamist. (I'm sure security costs for the Today Show and its outside spots are big enough already...)

I myself run a Blog with my own out-of-pocket funds to help educate web surfers whenever they happen to stumble into or (gosh!) even return to my site.

Toilet humor? Vulgarities? These are nothing compared to video tapes of Americans getting beheaded with dull knives.

When you've sat through something like that, then you can come back and try to critique us for occassionally blowing off steam with a little slapstick.

Foehammer

Posted by: Foehammer at May 16, 2005 8:44 PM

When I hear the raging comments here I know there is no action, no mob, and no one dies. They are, for lack of better words, wishing to be rid of the islamic menace. When I hear the jihadist spew, I know they mean it, and given half a chance will carry it out. As many people as possible will die.

There is a difference Thomas, you know it.

Posted by: butterfly at May 16, 2005 8:49 PM

You can strive to be polite and gentlemanly all you wish, but this would not save you if you ever fell into the hands of a mob that had just read an article about the "flushing of a Koran" and that mob happened to recognize you as a Westerner at the worst of moments.

I have confronted such mobs, almost to my peril. On 11 Sepetmber 2003, while working for UNHCR in Khartoum Sudan, I confronted mobs of Sufi- and Sunni Muslims 11 September (I lost two friends that day). So I have been there.

You are also so completely wrong about everyone here not *doing* anything about these problems. These discusions *are* doing something -- they are spreading the word, they are causing discussion and argument, they are spreading information and, above all, they are showing truths to at least a portion of the world that you just simply do not get in the mainstream media -- mainly because most media outlets don't want to get firebombed by a random, pissed off Islamist. (I'm sure security costs for the Today Show and its outside spots are big enough already...)

Not enough is being done clearly. And the battle is not being fought effectively enough. Are you lobbying Congressmen, speaking in community centers? Are you are doing is preaching to the converted. I am not saying what you are doing on JW is uselss, but that it needs tobe augmented by real community action. Maybe some are doing so, if so my hat is off to you.

I myself run a Blog with my own out-of-pocket funds to help educate web surfers whenever they happen to stumble into or (gosh!) even return to my site.

What site is this, if you don't mind me asking?

Toilet humor? Vulgarities? These are nothing compared to video tapes of Americans getting beheaded with dull knives. When you've sat through something like that, then you can come back and try to critique us for occassionally blowing off steam with a little slapstick.

I have seen horros in teh Muslim world. I have witnessed a stoning, and I have seen people killed by Muslims. I am keenly aware of what some Muslims are capable of.

Some of the critique is not slapstick. All I am saying is that you should make you point in a more intelligent way.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:52 PM

Thomas, I think you should just leave islam. I am convinced your heart is in the right place and you do want to tame the beast that is islam. Quite frankly, the beast cannot be tamed. You would do well to walk away now and let them stew in their own cess pool.

Posted by: ReligionOfPeaceMyArse at May 16, 2005 8:56 PM

Thomas - You have never threatend anyone here to my knowledge at JW. Sorry if it sounded like I was infering so.

But again, nothing was said to Taneem - by any of the so called "moderates". Even if things have been posted on previous threads - Taneem should have been pulled into line. Many infidels pulled Taneem in, but no Muslim, it was disappointing.

While the Koran exists Thomas, in its present form, it will continue to incite. Interpreting it is not the answer.

While its only my view, the Koran needs to be publically refuted by all politians as an evil book. Banning it will not make it go away.

I'm not angry at you Thomas, but while the Koran exists, I cannot see how you will succeed in whta you are saying here.

I will await with interest you NZ pariliment thing.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at May 16, 2005 8:56 PM

Faie enough 3rdtime, and thanks for clarification. I will let you know how it goes.

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 8:57 PM

TOMMY BOY AND ALL WITH PICTURES!!!

MUSLUM ARMY FOR HITLER!!!

KILLES 100 OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS!!!

FACTS JUST THE FACTS MAN!!!

YOU GOT THAT RIGHT BABY AND PICTURES AND EVERY THING!!! GO LOOK!!

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref24
Amin Al Husseini In Berlin during WWII
Amin Al-Husseini in Berlin meets [xxiii] with Adolf Hitler [xxiv] and is active in the decision to exterminate all Jews through the infamous Final Solution
Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII
Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.
1941
Christian Serbian Genocide
Husseini’s Personal Project [xxvi]
300,000
Non-Muslim
Deaths
Today…
Amin Al Husseini meets Croat Nazi A.Artukovic and M.Budak during WWII
April 25th. Amin Al-Husseini is made chief architect [xxvii] of Nazi offensive in Bosnia: Serbian-Cyrillic alphabet outlawed. Orthodox Serbs forced to wear Blue armband. Jewish Serbs forced to wear Yellow armband.
While in Bosnia, Amin Al-Husseini takes the title “Protector of Islam”. One hundred thousand (100,000) Bosnian Muslims join the Nazi ranks. They seek Nazi approval to establish autonomous Nazi protectorate for Bosnian Muslims.
Amin Al-Husseini approves the Pejani Plan, calling for the extermination of the Serbian population. Nazi Germany refuses to implement the Pejani plan.
Bosnian ethnic cleansing under Amin al Husseini:
. Orthodox Christian Serbs: 200,000 killed
. Jewish Bosnians: 22,000 killed
. Gypsies: over 40,000 killed
Husseini’s legacy of hatred is a major factor in today’s Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict against the Serbs and their leader Milosevic.
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Muslim Troops. 1943.
1943
Nazi Muslims [xxix]
“Cream Of Islam”
Bosnian Muslim Flag Under Amin Al Husseini
Amin Al Husseini creates the Hanzar Division of Nazi Muslim Soldiers in Bosnia, which he calls ‘the cream of Islam’. It becomes the largest division of the Third Reich Army (26,000 men) and participates actively in the genocide of Serbian and Jewish populations. ‘Hanzar’ was the name given to the dagger worn by officers under the Turkish Ottoman Empire. [xxx] Muslim soldiers pledge allegiance to Nazi regime in official statement prepared by Heinrich Himmler, head of SS Nazi troops
Amin Al Husseini Coaching on of his Muslim Nazi Soldier 1943
1943
Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government
Visits Nazi Death Camp with Head of SS H.Himmler
Amin Al Husseini Meets Chief Commander of Nazi SS: Heinrich Himmler.
Amin Al-Husseini is made Prime Minister of Pan-Arab Government by Nazi regime. His headquarters are in Berlin.
He plans construction of concentration camp [xxxii] in Nablus (Palestine) to implement the “final solution” in Palestine to exterminate the Jews there, as an extension of Hitler’s plan.
Mufti becomes close friend of Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS (Nazi Officers). Amin Al-Husseini is given a private tour of Aushwitz death camp by Himmler[xxxiii], where he insists on seeing first-hand the murder of Europe’s Jews.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/AminAlHusseini.htm#_ednref33
Nazi View of Islamic Religion
Head of Nazi SS troops Heinrich Himmler stated to Chief of Nazi propaganda Josef Goebbels:
“ [I] have nothing against Islam because it educates the men in this division for me and promises them heaven if they fight and are killed in action. A very practical and attractive religion for soldiers.” [xxxiv]
Islamic Institute in Dresden, Germany
Nazi Islam
Heinrich Himmler, Head of SS, and close colleague of Amin Al-Husseini, financed and established Islamic Institute (‘Islamische Zentralinstitut’) in Dresden under the Mufti. The purpose was to create a generation of Islamic leaders that would continue to use Islam as a carrier for Nazi ideology into the 21st century. [xxxv]
Mufti Addresses Bosnian Muslim Nazi Troops
Amin Al Husseini Inspecting His Islamo-Nazi Troops in Bosnia during WWII.
March 1, 1944. Amin Al-Husseini makes speech from Berlin addressing Muslim SS Nazi troops: “Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, History and Religion. This saves your honor. God is with you.” [xxxvi]
Amin Al Husseini Recruiting Muslims To Serve Nazi Regime.
Arab League and Muslim Brotherhood:
Post-World War II Voice of Amin Al-Husseini
1944-1974
From Amin Al-Husseini to Yasser Arafat

Go to this sight pictures and every thing will open your eyes to the threat we are up against REMEMBER THEY KILLED MORE CHRISTIANS THE JEWS!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM[NEWSWEEK] AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at May 16, 2005 8:58 PM

Catherine:

I am well familiar with the Muslim connection to Nazi's I have carried out written academic work on the topic. I am also awarae that this connectio still exists , particularly with the 3rd position movement. The head of it is Ahmed Huber a Swiss convert to Islam, who is leading teh Naz-Islamic connection today. We have had this discussion before if I recall.

Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 16, 2005 9:04 PM

Thomas,

Another slug fest, I see.

The latest JihadWatch thread addresses a sermon conducted this past Friday on Palestinian Authority T.V. proclaiming that Muslims will eventually take over the world. Yada. Yada.

While I know that such sermons are routine in that part of the world, I don't know how much of that is tolerated in 'Western' mosques such as the US or NZ.

Will the monitoring project you mentioned be covert?

How about an example or two of statements you've heard at Friday prayers that you feel are inappropriate or even hateful.

What responsibility does a member of a mosque have in controlling the kind of sermons that are given.

In the event that a hateful sermon were in progress, could you actually stand up and say something?

My personal feeling is that such sermons, if challenged regularly, will stop.

I don't know if you would be subjected to persecution by your fellow Muslims if you did that in NZ (a much more exciting challenge for someone in Pakistan, I'm sure).

Don't let 'em get you down.

Posted by: PRCS at May 16, 2005 9:08 PM

The John Simpson piece referenced above is back. It shifts places with the other story. Here one minute, gone the next. BBC ONLINE has does this on occasion with inflammatory photos, and, now, with a sickening editorial by a top man in the organization. Obviously, the organization is well aware that the editorial is biased, to say the least, and folks at the top want to push this point of view while minimizing the possibility of criticism that they are violating the terms of their charter. So, here one second, gone the next. Its appears as a ghostly, 'hard hitting editorial', whose visibility is prominent, but hard to catch in building a case against the organization. Very slick, conniving, tactics from one of the largest and most influential news organizations in the world.

Posted by: JTF at May 16, 2005 9:17 PM

IF Newsweek's story were true about some psy-ops
interrogator destroying a Koran, why would they want to publish such a story?

Do they care about the Koran? NO.

Do they worry about the terrorists in Gitmo? NO.

Do they care about the Muslims in general? NO.

Are they trying to undermine the current administration of the U.S.? YES.

Clearly this is the only rationale that works.

Why do they think that endangering American soldiers, aid workers, ambassadors and business people the world over is a risk worth taking to print a 'cheap shot' based on sloppy reporting?

The Newsweek personnel must think that their own children vacationing in Amsterdam or flying to Egypt on summer break from their European finishing schools will not be killed as 'Yankee dogs' during these Islamic riots.

But they endanger all of us as a result of poisoning the atmosphere with such empty-headed unvalidated 'journalistic' bomb-throwing.

However, I'm all for iconoclasm. And if the Koran is made into an idol, it should be smashed.
That's what the Taliban did with the Buddhas in Afghanistan. I don't recall people in the Buddhist countries burning Taliban flags in response and killing people during riots over this desecration.

Why? Because they're same.

Unlike the Muslims who see a 'book' as something so magical and precious that humans should die over its mishandling.

That is the thinking of a lunatic cult.

The only good Newsweek has done, and completely by accident, is to reveal the madness of Islam.

I propose a Bumper Sticker to encourage this trend:

HAVE YOU FLUSHED YOUR KORAN TODAY?

No printed paper is worth human life.

No human ideas of God are worth a single life.

Only madmen think life is less precious than ideas or symbols.

Or Muslims.

P.S. to THOMAS-

I've read the book. I don't like it. I wish you the best in trying to contort to fit its shortcomings a a humane document. I would advise switching to The Book of the Way.

The last person to die over it was to guy who wrote it.

And that was of old age, in a nice mountain cottage, with a half-finished cup of rice wine at his elbow, and a dragonfly poised on his silk sleeve.

Posted by: BigSleep at May 16, 2005 9:18 PM

Hi PRCS

Will the monitoring project you mentioned be covert?

It was initially, however several of us woy out the actual monitoring have been identified. They know who we are. But that has not stopped hateful sermons. In one city several weeks ago, the Imam defended the handiwork of Musab Zarqaqi saying that he was a hero. In that same sermon, the Imam commented on recent NZ criticism of Islam's tendencies toward wifebeating, that beating your wife was perfectly permissible.

In the event that a hateful sermon were in progress, could you actually stand up and say something?

I have done so. Recently I stood up at Jumah prayer and challenged the Imam on teh assertion that the Prophet Muhammad took his night journey in Jerusalem (the contemporary Muslim view). Some Muslim academics have argued that the journey actually took place in Medina. Such an argument does not prevail because it would undermine all Muslim claims to the Holy Land. Nonethelss, the Qur'an never mentions Jeruslalem (Al quds) instead in mentions al aqsa masjid (which means teh furthest mosque) The furtherst mosque at that time was actually in Mdeina. There was no such mosque in Jeruslae! I was literally chased out!

My personal feeling is that such sermons, if challenged regularly, will stop.

Maybe. But they will be forced underground. Or Imams will shroud their sermons in code speak or double speak (this happens in Cairo all the time because of government monitoring of some mosques).

I don't know if you would be subjected to persecution by your fellow Muslims if you did that in NZ (a much more exciting challenge for someone in Pakistan, I'm sure).

Most Muslims are fairly conservative here. While I have established a good reputation in the community, I am constantly challenged by extremists. I have been threatened on several ocassions, physically.

Cheers mate
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at