Couldn't agree more. The minute this site turns into LGF I'm gone.

Posted by: Effractor at May 19, 2005 8:54 AM

A Timely reminder.

Many of us commenters here have at some time or the other lost our cool and written rashly. The temptation to do so is esp. strong in troll infested threads. But its always helpful to keep Robert's points in mind.

Posted by: voletti at May 19, 2005 9:08 AM

It would be great if a trusted volunteer could become the moderator for the comments section, to make sure boorish and coarse venting does not bring the site down. This is a very important thing to make clear, and very important to keep in mind.

Posted by: Zico at May 19, 2005 9:10 AM

Thanks for the reminder, Mr. Spencer. I agree wtih zico, btw, having two or three regular members who have shown that they can keep their cool become site moderators would really help to keep out the threats, prosyletizing and other comments which are only going to divide this wonderful community and weaken your message.

Posted by: libbysmom at May 19, 2005 9:52 AM

The possibility of nuking Mecca is the main reason why Osama bin Laden or other jihadists thus far have declined to utilize nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction.

I do not understand why the strategic implications of eliminating the main islamic centers of worship cannot be discussed.

It would be the easiest method to discredit the omnipotence of Allah als the jihadists know him and hence eliminating the islam als political force.

Posted by: Germen Roding at May 19, 2005 10:08 AM

I like this site it covers news that can't be found else where on the net. I do wish it had a built in spell checker like packing.org but thats another matter. I know you see the radical islamic threat to mankind and the fact it will most likely destroy Europe. However Its is also destroying America. But America is being destroyed by groups like MEChA look at Villaraigosa the new mayor of LA. I have neighbors who speak spanish at home yet he wants his kids to learn English his wife and kids only know spanish. They are Ameican citizens born in the U.S. He is outraged that they go to bilingual public school yet get no instruction in English. There are American High School kids in neighbothood that know no English. In fact most of the TV is in Spanish only. The tower of Babel is comming to America sooner than most think. People will not learn English if all sevices available in Spanish. Unless English is taught in school and becomes the offical language our country will die. Please comment Mr Spencer

Posted by: ecil_man at May 19, 2005 10:23 AM

This will not change my views. I believe I post with great tact, but I would agree that some posters can get a little odd, but isn't that the nature of humanity?

I hope that censorship is done with care, because if we start acting like politically correct clones, I will fear for our futures.

Posted by: Foehammer at May 19, 2005 10:31 AM

Zico wrote:
It would be great if a trusted volunteer could become the moderator for the comments section, to make sure boorish and coarse venting does not bring the site down. This is a very important thing to make clear, and very important to keep in mind.

---------------
I spotted this and I want to nip this idea quickly. I know from experience that "trusted volunteers" turn into Word Police. If anyone moderates this forum, please let it only be official staff members of Jihad Watch like Robert or Hugh or you will be courting disaster in the comments section.

Posted by: Foehammer at May 19, 2005 10:34 AM

Like all of us who comment on the numerous articles, and comments that we come across everyday here at Jihadwatch, we reflect the moral judgements that are entrenched in our upbringings. And much of what we read that comes out of the Islamic World more than often conflicts with our western world civilities. It can at times be difficult to be less than critically objective about what we read here. At times there is a need to reflect some degree of anger towards what we read. There inlies that gray area of how do we reflect the way we feel about something without calling names or calling for genocide Etc. At times it is not easy to do, but as Robert Spencer has clearly pointed out many times before, we are more effective if we make are points without personal invectives.

Posted by: Mackie at May 19, 2005 10:38 AM

Folks

Mr. Spencer is soo right. Think how valuable this site is. We need a site that we can send friends and influential policy makers to. If the site is burdened down by posters who are merely venting frustration, it will decrease the value of the site.

Think of the people that were directed to jihadwatch.com for the first time by the reference on MSNBC. It would be wonderful if the traffic on this site would grow, it would be great for America.

Posted by: Athena at May 19, 2005 11:05 AM

Athena,

This site has a growing audience, of that there is no doubt. The trend line is clear and strong with a positive slope that I estimate to be around 1800 hits per month or around 60 new hits per day.

Posted by: BillR at May 19, 2005 11:24 AM

Robert not only has the right to expect a higher quality of discussion/debate/info passing, he has a duty to ensure it. Personally I dont join the nuke mecca, kill all the muslims crowd, but I understand their emotion and passion. I dont consider these people "lesser".
But I do think they should understand that this is Roberts house, they are a guest, and they should act/talk accordingly. There is a great deal of difference between this site and Yahoo chat. Islam chat is plumb full of kill all the muslims bravado and lots of other chaotic stuff.
It would be a dis-service to anti-terror efforts and information if JW turned into "chat carnival".
JW is superior to that. It would be nice to keep it that way....

Posted by: duh_swami at May 19, 2005 11:40 AM

Truth be told things had been more or less civil for a while until a certain someone started posting again. In my humble opinion postings here should be limited in length containing a URL reference to news reports or blogs to support any claims of "this happened" or "this was said". My most unfavorite is the type of person fond of making inflamitory statements in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS (Internet shouting) followed by endless cut and paste of news or scripture, post scripted with shoe shopping news. I don't know whether to chuckle or hurl. Hurl all over my cute pink open toed spiked heel shoes with the yellow daisy on the heels as I careen down the Alabama back roads in my convertable, hair and mini-skirt flying, taking pot shots at highway signs with my handgun as Frank croons on the 8-track.

Posted by: MrSkin at May 19, 2005 12:17 PM

I was one of those who went on a rant the other day and had my post removed....i do understand where Mr Spencer is coming from in saying that this is not a so called hate sight....but it should be known that many people in America and other parts of the world are under some sort of an attack by the forces of Islamicfascism and the liberal media to keep us from knowing the truth about Islam, its goals, its purposes.....many of us have some knowledge of what is really going on by coming to this website or many others....i have several bookmarked and check them out as much as possible to cross check stories and to make posts if i find a subject i would like to chat about....i feel that it is my right and the right of everone else here to feel anger at the lies and deception that the media blatantly puts out to cover up for the terrible and bloody crimes committed in the name of Allah while the media swarms like locusts all over any "story" about Korans being flushed down a toliet or an American soldier"murdering" a "helpless and wounded insurgent"(read as terrorist}.....when i speak with my father in law we talk about the media, the illegal alien problem in the US and the problems in the Middle east and we both feel angry at what the US government is NOT doing...protecting its AMERICAN CITIZENS and AMERICAN SOLDIERS enough from such libel and slander committed by the worlds media and by the forces of Islamicfascists....i understand that this is Mr Spencers website and that i am a "guest" but i would like to remind him and others that in some cultures a guest is considered someone very special and to be treated with respect and reverence....from what ive seen from the islamic world, by speaking nicely about them they look at it as a sign of weakness and asking to be hurt...really, isnt what we talk about here an attempt at trying to see some sort of action taken against the enemy[Islamicfasiscts}...nice talk gets you nowhere but the grave when dealing with them...they only understand force and brute strength...sure, they will listen to youre pretty speaches asking for peace and than will say that they will be youre friend, but can you really trust them to keep their word for any period of time???....look how those pretty words worked on Hitler in 1938.....its the same with the islamic terrorists...it may get you a small breathing period for some rest, youre thinking its over, when all they seem to do during those times of peace is rebuild, restructure,regroup, and get ready to attack you again....i would love to see peace in my lifetime, but its not going to happen as long as the Western world continues to play all nice and civil....how do you trust a religion that teaches to lie to the infidel,to lay in wait for a good time to attack and hack at the infidels neck??....and im supposed to be nice to Muslims???...sure there are some civil ones out there but i sure as hell havent seen enough of them stand the heck up and say to the terrorists that they do not want to follow Islam anymore if it stands for death,war,rape and pillage...when that happens, ill stop being an angry American who see's his and his childs culture slowly being destroyed and spit and stomped on by other peoples and cultures who are the ones who are corrupt,backwards and uneducated, not mine...i graduated high school with good grades, took a shot at college, and i have worked my ass off for over 25 years and im not about going to give up an AMERICAN CITIZENS right to be angry at those who want to come here and try to change me and my culture to suit theirs....sorry Abdulla or Sanchez or whoever...this is America and its gonna stay that way...YOU change to suit the American culture, learn the English language, get a real job, and if you dont like it, get the hell out and go back whereever it is you cam from and see if you can do better there which i seriously doubt or you wouldnt have come to the USA in the first place.....anyways, i do respect MrSpencer and his views but he also must respect mine and the others who post here...we are after all his guest and he is the host....i have said my peace and while im sorry if i may have offended anyone here, at the same time im not sorry as im tired of bending over backwards for those who want to shut me up for my right to say my views....good day to all....Knowledge is Power

Posted by: THANOS35 at May 19, 2005 12:45 PM

but it should be known that many people in America and other parts of the world are under some sort of an attack by the forces of Islamicfascism and the liberal media to keep us from knowing the truth about Islam, its goals, its purposes..Posted by Thanos35

And that's another part of the problem, there is no liberal media, only a corporate media, driven by profits, which means viewers, which means advertising, and the major media (which is TV BTW) is owned by corporations who back the RNC and are themselves part of the military industrial petroleum complex.

So long as Americans are engaged in this farcial ideological war, the house is divided and we lose.

There are issues on the Right which are a good fight, such as defending ourselves from Islamofascism, and protecting 2nd Amendment rights, but there are also issues on the left which are a good fight such as protecting civil liberties and the right to speech.

But there are also divisive, fascistic and Marxist notions on right and left, which should be questioned and denounced.

But it is not an all or nothing game, one has to have the independence of mind to realize this is not about team loyalty, this isn't Football or baseball.

Take the issue of dhimmitude, and kowtowing to the Muslims. both Dems and Repubs, left and right are guilty, and only a shill or a moron would make apologies or engage in apologetics or distraction for them.

But contratempts Ann Coulter, and Oreilly, there is no liberal media, in fact the media, with a few minor exceptions, is actually conservative (extremely so) because their vested interests are in profit, and stockholder shares and that makes them conservative.

The worst part is that the media doesn't do journalism anymore, it relies on government sources and handouts from PR department,s and nothing is leaked in Washington. If it is classified information, the leaker can be traced down and nailed within the hour (I know, because I supervised the handling and classification and disposal of documents).

We are being led around like cattle by the rings through our noses, and follow blindly to the slaughter ramp if we don't use the gray matter between our ears.

Posted by: Giaour at May 19, 2005 1:12 PM

do respect MrSpencer and his views but he also must respect mine and the others who post here...we are after all his guest and he is the host....Posted by Thanos35

Wrong, Mr Spence is the owner of the house, and the owner of the house is under no obligation to respect guests who are rowdy, disruptive and disrespectful and ignore his rules. Mr Spencer isn't your father who perhaps let you get away with temper tantrums and foul language.

I've opened my own doors to guests, and promptly evicted them when they don't behave.I've done the same to tenants who disrespected me and my simple no nonsense rules.

On the contrary the obligation to respect is yours the guest, not Mr Spencers. IN fact if you think about it(assuming you can thing) your attitude is identical to the Islamofascists against whom you rant, i.e. you believe that privileges are Rights that others MUST respect yours.

Posted by: Giaour at May 19, 2005 1:26 PM

Robert Spencer wrote:

"the anti-jihad struggle is a struggle for the equality of dignity and rights of all people, it would be nice if the anti-jihad commenters who posted here behaved as if they believed in those things too, and took the moral high ground..."

I would strongly disagree. The anti-jihad struggle is no more a struggle for the equality of dignity & rights of jihadist Muslims than World War II was a struggle for the equality of dignity & rights of German Nazis, Italian Fascists, and Japanese Imperialists.

The American General Curtis LeMay (not to single him out, since all the Allied Generals were more or less in agreement on this point) had to make, and pursue, in the context of an escalating global scourge threatening Western Civilization, some tragically necessary decisions that involved the bombing and killing of hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens who were not themselves directly categorizable as Axis-supporting Imperialists (as other Generals did the same with respect to German and Italian citizens). The bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, the fire-bombing of Tokyo, the fire-bombing of Dresden and other German cities -- all were deemed tragically necessary in the context of a global paroxysm of megalomaniacal madness hell-bent on mass-murder and barbaric conquest.

And all were tragically necessary exceptions to our Western Civilization's "struggle for the equality of dignity and rights of all people" -- precisely because the threat to such dignity and rights was so ferocious & monumental.

And our Civilization not only survived such a massive exception to that noble struggle, but in many ways matured and became better as a result.

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 1:27 PM

I agree with Robert on this one.
Many of the comments here were unnecessary, some act like children when they enter this site.
We all need to learn to get along with each other.

"Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

Posted by: ia786 at May 19, 2005 1:30 PM

Has the civility of Ayaan Hirshi, Ali Sina, Irshad Manji, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye'or, etc...done anything to effect change?

Just asking.

Posted by: nuh at May 19, 2005 1:34 PM

ia786, how very Christian of you. May the love of Jesus shine upon you and show you the true path to God.

Posted by: Lisa at May 19, 2005 1:37 PM

The problem is that on the internet, there are too many idiots that do not know what self-control means and there is no place to contain them all.

Our enemies know how to exploit that aspect. In fact may even be doing it themselves while posing as someone else to destroy this site's reputation. Although, that is probably not often the case luckily.

So, please be very careful. Or would that be CAIRful?

Posted by: Itachi at May 19, 2005 1:42 PM

JW staff,

Thank you for the timely reminder. Idiotic and tasteless commentary about "nuking Mecca" or "deporting all Muslims" hurts the credibility of those of us regard Muslims as the the biggest victims of Islam. It also makes it more difficult for people sitting on the sidelines to believe that you can hate an ideology without hating all the people who are under its shadow.

"...sorry Abdulla or Sanchez or whoever...this is America and its gonna stay that way"

Lighten up THANO. I share an apartment complex with poor Mexican immigrants. Some that cannot even speak English. I have NEVER met a single Mexican immigrant (legal or illegal) that wants bilingual education for their kids. This B.S. came from American and European "intellectuals," not poor uneducated Mexicans. Nonetheless, even though I am an immigrant, I strongly endorse the Minuteman Project and any measure to curtail illegal immigration to the U.S. I also endorse measures to curtail legal immigration from people who do not respect American values. Even though I can never view hard-working people who come to the U.S. to make a better life as "criminals," national security comes first, and the Mexican government has to grow up and learn to take care of its own.

"The worst part is that the media doesn't do journalism anymore, it relies on government sources and handouts from PR department,s and nothing is leaked in Washington."

Leave it up to Giaour to attempt to transform a thread about offensive commentary on JW to a (poorly-disguised) platform for Chomskyesqe propoganda.

Posted by: Andrei Rublev at May 19, 2005 1:51 PM

Hey metaxy,

Frontpagemag has a great article about postmodernism. Check it out:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18107

Posted by: Andrei Rublev at May 19, 2005 1:57 PM

"Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

Was the Allied War effort against the Nazis, Fascists and Imperialist Japanese an example of "love driving out hate"?

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 2:10 PM

Thanks Andrei; I had already read that -- pretty good, though I've read (and suspected) most of it before.

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 2:13 PM

To answer my own rhetorical question:

Was the Allied War effort against the Nazis, Fascists and Imperialist Japanese an example of "love driving out hate"?

-- I would say yes: it was Tough Love. Tragically necessary tough love.

Necessary because of the global pandemic of hatred at the time; tragic because the ferocity and fanatical determination of the enemy necessitated overwhelming collateral damage.

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 2:28 PM

I agree with what "THANOS35" wrote here

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006235.php#c92480

A great post THANOS35. You are right.

This is Robert's site but I am sure he is not a childish person who goes "this is mine, mine, mine. This is my precious little site and its not yours. I can do whatever I want because its mine." Well I hope not anyway. There are a lot of petty and immature people like that.

This is Robert's site and he can set reasonable standards here but I am sure he does not see this site as his very own little cyber fiefdom with him as the absloute despot.

I run some sites too and I don't delete anything except people trying to sell viagra or things like that.

I am thinking of running an anti-jihad site without too much restrictions right now.

I would respect it if Robert objects to nuking and so on. But I hope Robert won't censor too much.

I had one of my post deleted sometime ago. There weren't any nuking or anything. It wasn't even rude. The only thing possibly wrong I could see was the word "witch" in it.

By the way may if not all the psychologist would agree that our responses are just a natural reaction.

Posted by: Informed Christian at May 19, 2005 2:40 PM

'but there are also issues on the left which are a good fight such as protecting civil liberties and the right to speech.

But there are also divisive, fascistic and Marxist notions on right and left, which should be questioned and denounced.'~ giaour

I'm still searching for those right-wing academia who support the Jihadists (who are ostensibly right-wing themselves). However in the meantime we should continue to focus on all the Well-Documented attacks on the West and the US, thru the leftist academia, as they continue to indoctrinate our upcoming generations in the RoP, setting us up for Dhimmification:

The distinction between education and indoctrination:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17621

Further info on Indoctrination in the schools:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17965

http://www.historytextbooks.org/islam.htm

http://www.blessedcause.org/Righteous%20Out/NEA%20betrayal.htm

In the meantime, I will repeat what I have said before: Be prepared with questions and links to counter what these guys come at you with! Invective doesn't help.

Posted by: Gary at May 19, 2005 2:53 PM

Robert,

That's sobered me up, I'll bear it in mind whenever I post.

Posted by: Elephant at May 19, 2005 3:26 PM

There is a lot of anger out there.
We are discussing Jihad on this forum not the teddy bears picnic.
This is deadly serious,there are young children today being taught to hate and kill non-Muslims,teaching them to be murderers following their prophet’s example.
And while most Muslims aren’t terrorists,all the really good ones are. They haven’t corrupted Islam any more than the S.S. corrupted Nazism or the Kamikazes corrupted the culture of Imperial Japan.
The Nation of Islam has been at war with everyone, including itself, for 1,400 years. You’ll see why Muslims celebrate
their “victories,” no matter how many innocents perish.
And as Robert has made this forum open then we should be allowed to express our anger.
If we do Cross the line and get mail deleted then it to us to accept the fact that our mail has been deleted,do not whine about it,instead try and use a little self censorship. I have had mail deleted,and so has Hugh.But this has not stopped me from being aggressive in many of my posts
But Robert we are at war and tempers are very hard to control at times

ps Thankx for removing my last post

Posted by: shiva at May 19, 2005 3:39 PM

Shiva,

I understand that people are angry. There are still smart ways to be angry and stupid, counterproductive ways to be angry.

One other note: Hugh is my friend and a key member of the Jihad Watch staff. While we have disagreements on some issues, on issues concerning Islamic jihad and global terrorism we are in complete agreement. I have never deleted a post from him because of its language or tone. There are some he has asked me to delete so that he could revise them and post them as articles.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at May 19, 2005 3:49 PM

Goodness without knowledge is weak; knowledge without goodness is dangerous.
We have to build a better man before we can build a better society.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing.
Our purpose is not to make a living but a life--a worthy, well-rounded, useful life.
Morality is not a subject; it is a life put to the test in dozens of moments.
-Paul Tillich

WE learn here about the knowlegde without goodness,(muslim advancement, with "anti western" save the world justice), we should keep "KEEP OUR HEADS ON" because that is when these beasts are in control!
WE can make the right choice moment by moment, while learning, by keeping our heads on, and keeping cool. I hope this site gains more attention and shines with its readers and writers
from top to bottom

Posted by: francis at May 19, 2005 4:00 PM

knowledge

Posted by: francis at May 19, 2005 4:03 PM

Robert
Only noticed that a post was deleted.What I was pointing out was one of his posts was deleted and there was no remark made by Hugh
Where as some posters have complained that their remarks have been removed.
I was not trying to infer there was any rift between you and Hugh
Thanks for explaining to me the situation.Why I noticed his comment was removed,was I wanted to check on something he had written.
Thats all
regards
Shiva
Ps Thank for E-mailing me when you do delete my posts.

Posted by: shiva at May 19, 2005 4:08 PM

This is a great site to disseminate knowlegde, but my fear is that three or five years from now nothing in regards to changing or challenging Islam will occur.

There's alot of pent-up frustration on this blog. Why can't it be used for some direct action? I'm sure more than 50 JihadWatch protesters would converge on Wash DC to march against Islam. Or how about picketing mosques with placards that say "FaithFreedom.com" or "JihadWatch is watching you" or "It's ok to leave Islam"

What if Martin Luther King just kept writing letters instead of using direct action?

When do we realize that writing op-ed peices in newpapers, talking on the radio, and venting our fears in the blogosphere on sites such as JihadWatch isn't going to be enough to effect change?

Tell me when alittle "civil disobedience" ala Henry David Thoreau is warranted? (I'm not advocating violence, but some sort of direct action that involves masses of people)

The sad truth is that none of this will occur until a suicide bomber kills hundreds in a Chicago subway. Then Americans will take to the streets.

Posted by: nuh at May 19, 2005 4:39 PM

"I'm still searching for those right-wing academia who support the Jihadists..."

The only people on the Right supporting the Jihadists are people on the extreme ultra-right: neo-Nazis (the American head of the Aryan Nation, August Kreis, publically supported al Qaeda recently, citing their common enemy, the American-Zionist Empire).

For neo-Nazi collusion with Jihadists on both a pragmatic and ideological level, see

"The Reds, The Browns and the Greens or The Convergence of Totalitarianisms", by Alexandre del Valle

http://www.alexandredelvalle.com/publications.php?id_art=131

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 5:07 PM

Posted by: MrSkin at May 19, 2005 12:17 PM

YOU AINT TALKEN ABOUT LITTLE OLD ME. MRSKIN??

WELL MY EYES GET TIRED I AINT SCREAMING!!!

THIS COMPUTER THING IS ALL NEW TO ME!!!

WILL THAT HELP IF I SPACE THEM FOR YOU??

MRSKIN???

AND TODAY I HAVE ON A SKORT ON THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTREST??

Oh yea I don't have any Yellow shoes

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
Mr. Spencer okay I won't pick on Tommy boy any more!!!

Posted by: Catherine at May 19, 2005 5:59 PM

I call (daily it seems) for the banning of Islam in America in the same way that Nazism is banned. The efforts, our efforts, must be two-fold: (1) raise awareness that Islam is NOT a "religion of peace" and that Jihad and Dhimmitude always were and always will be its core beliefs and (2) to expose Islam as a lie from its very core, meaning Muhammad on out. That it is not only not an 'Abrahamic' faith, but not even a religion in the sense that we understand and respect religion, and which we are allowed to define for ourselves.

We must further make people understand that a Muslim can look you in the eye and use the words 'peace', 'honor', 'dialogue', 'tolerance', 'good', 'moral', 'kindness', etc knowing that he means them in Islamic way and that you think he is speaking and thinking as you do.

I call for the offering of so-called moderate or peaceful Muslims here in the US to leave Islam or be expelled.

Islam is a danger to the whole planet. What is our response supposed to be if/when a dirty bomb or worse explodes in New York City or its harbor?

The Islamic world must be made to understand that we will destroy them if they continue to attack us.

Ethelred - questioningIslam@yahoo.com

Posted by: Ethelred at May 19, 2005 6:03 PM

I agree with Ethelred.

We are involved in a World War.

Was it "advocating genocide" to advocate the defeat of Nazi Germany and Japan during WWII, even though we knew that there would be collateral damage and that many "innocent" people would perish along with the hateful ideologies with which they did not truly identify? Like it or not, the same thing will happen with islamofascism - there may be "moderate" muslims, but when push comes to shove and our survival as a civilization is at stake, they won't matter. That's just the reality of war - it's harsh, but true.

I personally respect Spencer's rules, but I believe that MORE outrage is called for, not less - even if we are not free to express it here. Harden your hearts, but keep your words controlled - the response to muslim aggression, however, will be anything but.

Posted by: CGW at May 19, 2005 6:20 PM

“there is no liberal media”. Hahahahaha

“There are issues on the Right which are a good fight, such as defending ourselves from Islamofascism, and protecting 2nd Amendment rights, but there are also issues on the left which are a good fight such as protecting civil liberties and the right to speech”

Really? The Right doesn’t protect civil liberties and the 1st amendment (free speech)? That’s a lie!

What good are the liberals again? They can’t protect the country, they want to take our guns away, they screw up domestic programs, print lies in magazines & newspapers, indoctrinate school kids with multiculturalism and lies about history, tax everyone to death, they want the UN to protect us, are pro-islamic immigration, pro-illegal immigration, are fanatically PC and on and on and on. Most liberals probably aren’t really liberal once they think about it. The real liberals (about 20% of the pop.) are almost as indoctrinated as the Islamic extremists and appear to be walking hand in hand with them to overthrow our way of life.

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 6:24 PM

i just can't help my self!!!!

some of what the Press is not telling you!!!!!!

May 18, 2005
Gas explosion in a house inNY?? What was that about Pedia?? And apartments?? All though it was 60degrees in NY??

Black Islamic Terrorist get away from a bank robbery?? Get away with 200,000$ in NY think we may have to do what they do in Europe you get buzzed in and have to go through a metal detecter before you even get in the door???

Neswweek lied and people died???BUT you have to ask why newsweek would even print a story that might hurt America??? Why would newsweek want the USA to look Bad what is their Adgena??
Does the MSM who hate Christains what to hurt the USA so bad they help our enemies?? Will the MSM like living in Saudia a. or Roma???

I pick Roma not perfect but there you can Dance, Eat, and Drink wine, and let’s not forget Short Skirts!!!

May 19, 2005
House colapase in NY?? Was being remodled?? Now who would move walls with out an Arc...

Democrats change the rules of the Senate they will allow no bussines while they show Americans what sore losers they are they have stopped all meetings that means Intel Energy Bill [BIO Deissel] the Senate Democrats are like newsweek who lied and people died!!!! Will hurt America and her People just for their Adgena and this is why the American People will not vote for thm they care nothing about America??

Mean while the bad hair guy for North Korea is still out their and the Democrats in the Senate stop a meeting about Iran because they want to show off on the senate floor?? What was that about not going to shut the senate down????

Sad Sad NEWSWEEK LIED GOOD PEOPLE DIED!!

WHO SAYS THE PEOPLE ARE NOT DANGOURS??

Call your congressmen tell tham to vote yes on the Norwood amendment [to allow cops to stop and detane illegals]!!!! Good bill!! Every Democrat I saw stand up complained that the cops were not smart enough they had no training but yess something should be done???? They admitted that we didn’t have enough people because the problem is to big but they all said that cops could not be trained they were to stupid ????

The marborge virus in Angola has killed over 300 people and many more people infected??

BREAKING NEWS N Korea is showing off his tanks but the Democrats are not letting any meetings take place????

W.H.O. says that it is possible for the brid flue to pas between human to human??

And the Democrats stall in the Senate??

Star wars fans camp out at the wrong theater but not to worry the strom troopers come and get them and guide they to the true theater??? WOW wonder if the campers were Democrats???

Last night I saw a protest in L.A. about a monument that said frist the Indians owned this land then the Mexicans and soon we will have it back????On one side of the Street the Illegals [Mexicans] where they had blow horns masked faces and a large mexican flag??? On the other side of the street there were well dressed Americans with an American Flag shouting police in the middle?? Well Allen Clomes said that the trouble makers were the ones who were holding the American Flags why couldn’t they just forget about the moument it wasn’t hurting anybody and the Illegals just need to be left alone??

NOW THEY WONDER WHY THEY ARE NOT WINNING ELECTIONS???

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

The official national symbol of MEChA is an eagle holding a machete-like weapon and a stick of dynamite.
The acronym MEChA stands for "Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan." or "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan."

MEChA is an Hispanic separatist organization that encourages anti-American activities and civil disobedience. The radical members of MEChA who refer to themselves as "Mechistas," romanticize Mexican claims to the "lost Territories" of the Southwestern United States -- a Chicano country called Aztlan. In its national constitution, MEChA calls for self-determination by its members to liberate Aztlan. MEChA's national constitution starts out: "Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlán must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlán."

These anti-American "Mechistas" live with the false illusion that they are being racially discriminated against because they are Latinos while totally dismissing the idea that maybe it is their ideology that is being discriminated against.

At the MEChA National Conference on March 15 - 18, 2001, the official "MEChA Philosophy" was ratified. An excerpt from the document states: "as Mechistas, we vow to work for the liberation of Aztlan."

The MEChA Clubs on each of the Santa Barbara high school campuses are not the only ones. MEChA groups exist on 90 percent of the public high school, college and university campuses in the Southwestern United States.

The myth of Aztlan can best be explained by California's Santa Barbara School District's Chicano Studies textbook, "The Mexican American Heritage" by East Los Angeles high school teacher Carlos Jimenez. On page 84 there is a redrawn map of Mexico and the United States, showing Mexico with a full one-third more territory, all of it taken back from the United States.

http://www.mayorno.com/aztlan.html

El Plan de Aztlan (El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan)

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

WHAT IS RAZA

"La Raza" (The Race) is a broad term which refers to those whose ancestry is indigenous to the area of Mexico (or "Aztlan"). MEChA members refer to themselves as "La Raza" or "Raza," but the term itself is used to indicate camaraderie among those in different organizations with the same objectives. There are a number of organizations who consider themselves to be La Raza.

The most visible of these groups are MEChA, The Brown Berets de Aztlan, OLA (Organization for the Liberation of Aztlan), La Raza Unida Party, and the "Nation of Aztlan"

sympathy?
We need to learn and keep in mind that word sympathy is in the dictionary between the words SH_T and SYPHILIS!!!

http://www.aztlan.net/nofa.htm

NATION OF AZTLAN
Ministry of Information

Los Angeles, Alta California

Estimada Raza de Aztlan and Beyond:
Ministry of Foreign Affairs
October 18, 2000
On the Palestinian-Jewish Issue
La Raza's struggle for the land and for political and economic self-determination is not different from the struggle of the Palestinian people in Zionist Israel. We live in Aztlan under Anglo domination as the Palestinians live under Jewish domination. La Raza as well as the Palestinians lost the land through military aggression and both people now live in segregated regions within the larger nation. The Palestinian people as well as La Raza provide the hard labor necessary to prop up the national economies. Both Raza children and Palestinian children are victims of educational discrimination. The Palestinians as well as La Raza are considered people of color. So who should we side with in the present struggle in the Middle East?

WAKE UP ALLENCLOMES YOU ARE JEWISH PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND WILL ONLY GET YOUR BUTT SHOT OFF!!!!

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
How did the Arab territory of Transjordan come into being?
The 1922 White Paper (also called the Churchill White Paper) was the first official manifesto interpreting the Balfour Declaration.
http://muslimsandme.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, May 04, 2005
Is Swedish Democracy Collapsing? 5-4-05
From Fjordman Wednesday, May 04, 2005

This is a very long post, but if you don't read this your making a suicidal mistake!

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/8/18/135030
Albanians Destroy 40 Churches and Monastaries in Kosovo
ZENIT
August 16, 1999
According to Serbian Orthodox Church sources, more than 40 Orthodox Churches and monasteries in Kosovo were destroyed by Albanians since the NATO peace forces took over control of the province.
Orthodox Bishop Atanasije Rakita, director of the Serbian Orthodox Church's information service, said that, in addition, 200 Serbian villages were systematically destroyed in this southern province.
http://www.latinodawah.org/
Latino American Dawah Organization
Latino American Dawah Organization(LADO) is a nonprofit organization that was founded in 1997 by a handful of converts to Islam. Our mission is to promote Islam among the Latino community within the United States. We also educate Latinos and others about the legacy of Islam in Spain and Latin America and provide free information about Islam to all interested parties. Alhamdulillah (All praise is due to God), many Latinos are embracing Islam. Some feel that they are reclaiming their Islamic heritage.

What is Islam? Who is a Muslim?
Members don't create opportunities for LADO. Members create opportunities for Allah. Miembros no crean las oportunidades para LADO. Miembros crean las oportunidades para Allah.

"¡Puro Latino! ¡Puro Islam! ¡A su LADO!"
For all your burning questions...
Call 1-877-WhyIslam
Sí, hablan español

AND DEMOCRATS WONDER WHY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NOT VOTE FOR THEM

Pakistan lets 2 Islamic Terrorist go after 8 mo. In Jail who were Americans???

Democrat offeres plan to save S.S. his plan is to raise Taxes????

Islamic Terrorist in Iraq are chaining the car bomers to the car and setting to cars off by remote?? NOW how can this be that would these people are not willing to die for the YELLOW FAT MAN THESE Islamic Terrorist are real monsters who are killing the Iraqi people!!!!

Saw sader in frount of a crowd after their preacher had been killed[I think sadded did it] not many wanting to be near sader[yellow coward who killes men in mosques] sader is a Islamic terrorist!!!

Caylon2 you have to ask why she bought a used quran when CAIR is giving free ones away??? This is a stagged Feel sorry for me story???

sympathy?
We need to learn and keep in mind that word sympathy is in the dictionary between the words SH_T and SYPHILIS!!!

Queens anti Semitic grefitie all over the place something about July 14?? Many of the Black Americans are really pissed of this, they know it was the mulsums!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destroy ALL Islamic Terrorisst and ALL who Support them Amen

PS
REMEMBER
A gun in Hand is better than 2 cops on the phone!!!

Posted by: Catherine at May 19, 2005 6:47 PM

Greetings

There are two individuals in particular have been very offensive on this site. I don't criticise them for their views per se. Many people share their views, but express themselves in a more intelligent way without resorting to personal attacks.

Cross actually decided it would be fun to assert that I beat my wife. He has resoprted to personal and offensive attacks designed to intimidate myself and other Muslims from posting here. Robert thankfully deleted this post. Personal remarks and insults are unwarranted.

Shiva you have used personal insults and have called me a Nazi, Muzi, Troll Liar and recently a scumbag. The comments you make render it impossible to enter into dialogue. It should be understood that I am against Jihad, dhimmitude and other aspects of Islam, and am equally committed to fighting them, albeit in a different way. Your remarks are rarely analytical .

I am not prefect either, I have recently used a couple of insults myself, and I apologise for those whom I have insulted. I will endeavour to avoid this in the future. However, when I have used insults (use of the words idiot, hypocrite) they have been because I have been accused of deception. I recently called someone here a hypocrite because they applied a double standard on a particular subject matter. This person, then accused me of making a death threat against them because of the Qur'an treatement of hypocrites. Such a linkage was absurd and offensive.

We should all sharpen up.

I post on this site, because I admire Robert and Hugh's work. What they are doing will lead to something. We should all aspire to help in this mission.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 6:56 PM

Tommy,

Tommy you misspelled Criticize
Tommy you misspelled Resorted
Tommy you misspelled Apologize
Tommy you misspelled Endeavor
Tommy you misspelled Treatment

“We should all sharpen up”. says Tommy.

Speak for yourself troll.

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 7:11 PM

Cross:

Please forgive my misspellings. I do apologise. I often post while I am working, and don't have the time to be as meticulous as I would like to.

Again you resorted to personal insults. At least you did not accuse me of domestic violence this time.

Use of the word troll is offensive. Please do not refer to me as troll. Perhaps you should reread Robert's statement.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 7:22 PM

I used New Zealand spellings for criticise, apologise and endeavour. But I did misspell treatment and resorted...

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 7:23 PM

Corss:

Do you have any comments about the remarks you made with respect to my wife? Would you care to reiterate them or elucidate them further?

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 7:25 PM

Trollmas,

I doubt anyone, male or female would actually be stupid enough marry someone who is as mentally and emotionally unstable as you are. How's that religion shopping going lately? Last I heard you claimed you went muzi, before you were Catholic. What's up with that? Were molested by a priest?

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 7:45 PM

Again personal attacks. But I do admit they are quite funny, particularly because they remind me of the tactics that my little brother employs to get some attention. When he does I usually pat him on the head and say "ease up lil' champ". You remind me so much of him.

How's that religion shopping going lately?

Really well Cross, any further suggestions?

Were molested by a priest?

Wow, you guessed it. You are very intuitive. You have figured me all out!

Yours humbly
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 7:56 PM

Mr. Spencer-

While you keep the anti-jihad commenters from going linguistically ballistic, one request:

DO NOT delete the vicious, hate-filled, violence-spewing, vituperative, scurrilous, demented, mocking, contemptuous and foul-mouthed pro-jihad posters.

We should hear them plainly, and as rawly and rancidly as they would put their diatribes.

Let them vent.

It is instructive to hear those who would destroy Western civilization clearly.

The answers, however, should be more than a mere mirror image.

Endless Bible verses to answer or 'refute' Koran suras runs in eternally sterile circles, getting both nowhere. True Believers cannot be changed by words. The heart must transform through some experience. (The Muslim 'road to Damascus' is awfully empty lately.)

ia666-

You lie like a trooper. And about "love" no less! Stunningly shameless. (There must be a special circle in the Dantean domain reserved for such base ontological sliminess. Nietzsche called it "poisoning the wellsprings of being".) Congratulations on being the perfect Muslim example of strategic deception. (For anyone curious about why I would baldly call someone posting here a liar, read his initial JW/DW posting [google his "ia786" tag and the words "my hateful hate-filled brothers and sisters" to see what I mean], since it shows how much "love" he is brimming with. Dr. Mengele loved twins with about as much ardor.)

Ethelred-

Nazism is NOT banned in America. (You're free to be an openly psychopathic political racist anti-semitic sh*thead in the U.S., and everyone else in the country is free to throw eggs at you, curse you as maniacal scum, and boycott whatever way you earn your worthless existence.)

nuh-

Nothing stopping anyone from gathering together like-minded people and performing noticable acts against jihad. (i.e. "newsworthy" stunts, which can be learned by a week's study of what gets reported on the local t.v. broadcasts... e.g.: "Bikinis Against Jihad" would be guaranteed an airing... etc.)

Meanwhile, try getting a simple business card printed up ($20 US or so) with the words:

"In Islam a woman is only worth half of a man."

FIND OUT WHY AT-

jihadwatch.org

And leave them anywhere curious people pass.

Cross-

Concerning Thomas' spelling. Most are normal typos from clumsy keying. But-

"Endeavour", like many "-or" ending words, in British lands have an extra "u". Like "colour" etc. I think Thomas should bail out of Islam before they get irritated with his attemts to "distort" (reform) the Koran. (We can see they have a few unstable members in their ranks.)

Posted by: BigSleep at May 19, 2005 8:06 PM

Trollmas,

If you don't like to hear the truth then you shouldn't ask the questions. Seems you like to start things you can’t finish. Like the ridiculous FMAT march. It flopped and what did you do lil tommyboy hmmmmm I’ll tell you, you whined and quit. What does that make you?

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 8:06 PM

Comments that are boorish, aggressive, etc., or tangled into knots answering some obvious provocateur, will only discourage thoughtful people who are actually in a position to influence policy from using this site as a resource... Don't let your comment be one that helps them increase that advantage.

You sure are helping Cross. Perhaps you wish Robert and JihadWatch to fail. I think you do. Perhaps you are a jihadist yourself, trying to undermine this site under the guise of a disgruntled and dimwitted non-Muslim man. Tell you what, if you want to insult me personally you can do so at t.haidon@justice.com. Feel free to inundate my inbox.

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:06 PM

Big Sleep,

"Concerning Thomas' spelling. Most are normal typos from clumsy keying. But-
"Endeavour", like many "-or" ending words, in British lands have an extra "u". Like "colour" etc.

I think Thomas should bail out of Islam before they get irritated with his attemts to "distort" (reform) the Koran. (We can see they have a few unstable members in their ranks.)"

-----------

Yes BS,

I realize the old English spelling but that doesn’t make it correct. If this site were based in England I’d let it pass but this is America and those spellings are incorrect.

Don't worry about Trollmas leaving isalm, he'll trade it in as soon as he stumbles onto one.

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 8:16 PM

Trollmas,

You are very sad. Pull yourself together and stop being a little whining crybaby. Look what trying to be a muzi has done to you.

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 8:19 PM

Big Sleep:

I think Thomas should bail out of Islam before they get irritated with his attemts to "distort" (reform) the Koran. (We can see they have a few unstable members in their ranks.)

Thank you for your concern, they already are irritated.

Cross:

If you don't like to hear the truth then you shouldn't ask the questions. Seems you like to start things you can’t finish. Like the ridiculous FMAT march. It flopped and what did you do lil tommyboy hmmmmm I’ll tell you, you whined and quit. What does that make you?

I resigned because I felt that FMAT did not go far enough. You probably also would have criticised me for staying. But I have committed to forming and working with another organisation which, in my view is better.

Your use of the word troll is unecessary. Civilised (yes, thats a New Zealand spelling) Adults do not speak to each other that way. I assume you are an adult and not the age of my little brother.

Again, your postings are diminishing Robert's mission. What is your response to that? Robert has asked for these remarks to stop. Why do you continue them? Again if you want a channel to vent personal insults at me, I have given you my email. Fire away. But not here mate. Its not the place.

You post not because you want to promote the interests of JW, but because you want attention I think.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:26 PM

Cross:

For once stick to the issue. Again, like my little brother you seem to have an attention span problem. Re-read what Robert has to say above.

What are you doing to promote that message? You are doing what he has asked you not to.

Answer the question if you have the integrity to. See if you can do it without using insults. I doubt you have the ability to.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:28 PM

If this site were based in England I’d let it pass but this is America and those spellings are incorrect.

Pure idiocy. I am sure that this is paramount on Robert's mind as well (not).

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:32 PM

Trollmas,

You should stick to being a quitter, it’s what you are best at. You quit Catholicism, you quit FMAT. You’ve proven that you are just a little whiney crybaby hiding behind Robert’s coattails. Tell me Trollmas, what does it feel like to be a punk like you?

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 8:33 PM

Stick to the issues:

How are you helping Robert Spencer or JihadWatch?

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:43 PM

You’ve proven that you are just a little whiney crybaby hiding behind Robert’s coattails.

How so? Tell me in detail.

Tell me Trollmas, what does it feel like to be a punk like you?

It feels fantastic!

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 8:44 PM

Well, I'll never reach the level of Hugh or RS, but I'll try to keep my posts on the adult level of discourse.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at May 19, 2005 8:51 PM

Cross,

Don't bother telling Thomas in detail. The more cogent your analysis will be, the less likely he will respond on point. (I know from personal experience. And I have yet to receive a response from him or his dear friend the President of FreeMuslims about whether they believe in a theoretical loophole for Jihad.)

He prefers to spend his time tilting trollistically against what he deems are trolls, apparently.

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 9:02 PM

Metaxy,

Agreed, besides, continuing to spank and b-slap Trollmas is too easy.

Posted by: Cross at May 19, 2005 9:17 PM

CGW wrote "I personally respect Spencer's rules, but I believe that MORE outrage is called for, not less"

Yes indeed. More outrage. Good heavens! Look at the restraint which we in the West who are awake to the threat of Islam have shown! (The millions of sleeping Leftists, of course, don't count -- how can you be outraged when you've been numbed by PC multi-culturalism?)

The degree of restraint we've shown is excessive. More Rage and Pride is needed, as the wise old Oriana Fallaci says.

Posted by: metaxy at May 19, 2005 9:32 PM

Thomas

We don't need to be told here that Islam needs to be reformed.
Its in places like Pakistan,Indonesia,Sudan,go there and reform your brothers of peace,or isn't the fee good enough.

Posted by: shiva at May 19, 2005 9:59 PM

Mr von Abele:

Perhaps you should contact Mr Spencer. He informed me of Kamal's response right away, and I sprung into action. Ask him to forward you my email to Kamal. That letter which I blind copied to Kamal was heavily critical of Kamal.

I see where you are coming from in your letter to Kamal. I even agree with you. legitimate questions. FMAT does not believe in an ideological loophole to Jihad. Remember that resolution FMAT drafted? Kamal did not really write it. Kamal based the resolution on an article written by a non Muslim. Do not give Kamal too much credit, he is not that knowledagble when it comes to Islam anyway.

And as you can see the rally proved nothing. It did not challenge jihad, and in my view it does look like a smokescreen.

Cheers Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 10:15 PM

Mr von Abele:

I am not sure why you see fit to be rude to me. I have genearlly spoken to you with respect. We may not see eye to eye on everything, but you resort to more "trollisms". More personal insults.

Can you please explain why?

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 10:17 PM

Shiva:

Again, why are you rude. Why do you refer to me as a Nazi, Muszi, Troll, Liar and scumbag.

We don't need to be told here that Islam needs to be reformed. Its in places like Pakistan,Indonesia,Sudan,go there and reform your brothers of peace,or isn't the fee good enough.

I have. I have lived and worked in Khartoum. I have lived and worked in Egyp. I have lived and worked in Palestine. In all of these places I have tried to speak with Muslims on my views. Again, I do not hide behind the computer like yourself.

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 10:20 PM

Cross:

I reiterate:

How are you through the offensive remarks you have made about my wife, along with other vicious comments helped JihadWatch or Robert Spencer?

I am still waiting for personal insults in my mailbox at t.haidon@justice.com. Yet it is empty. Are you afraid to email me personally with your remarks?

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 10:21 PM

Cross:

Metaxy,

Agreed, besides, continuing to spank and b-slap Trollmas is too easy.

You have never even tried to have a reasonable debate. You find it difficult to maintain a level of civility. Why is that?

Yours sincerely
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 19, 2005 10:23 PM

Thomas,

Did your critical letter to Kamal include your specific objection to Jihad as a potentially legitimate way for that wonderfully complex mosaic of cultures which we cannot pigeonhole called "Islam" to violently defend itself against perceived threats to its trans-national self?

Will you here and now declare that you are absolutely opposed to any rationale by which "Islam" may through any type of physical violence defend itself, on the basis that only secular nation-states through secular laws & politics should be empowered to defend threatened groups (including Islam) constituted within them through secular citizenship?

Posted by: metaxy at May 20, 2005 12:18 AM

groan and double groan...you guys need a referee.

Thomas...it would be nice if you didn't use Robert and JW to project guilt at your adversaries. Four or five times in this thread.
Sometimes, enough is enough, and enough is too much. A little more intellectual honesty and less guilt tripping, would be ok...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 20, 2005 12:29 AM

Metaxy:

First I want to apologise for the way you were treated. Kamal was way out of line.

"Did your critical letter to Kamal include your specific objection to Jihad as a potentially legitimate way for that wonderfully complex mosaic of cultures which we cannot pigeonhole called "Islam" to violently defend itself against perceived threats to its trans-national self?"

Here is a copy of the email I sent. This can be verified by Robert Spencer:

Kamal:

I am writing to express my disappointment
with respect to FMAT's insulting response to a member ofthepublic who submitted an essay for your perusal that was brought to my attention by Robert Spencer.

I am operating under the assumption that you were
he person who responded to Mr von Abele as you normally are the one who responds to emails at
info@freemuslims.org. I was informed today that you wrote in response to an essay sent by Mr von Abele the following :

"What do you expect. We work hard at what wedo
and rather than supporting us, you stay up late
at night dreaming up conspiracy theories. You are no different than Bin Laden and HAMAS who's basis for much of their actions are conspiracy theories that
Christians and Jews are our to destroy Islam. We have no patience for Muslim conspiracy theories or your conspiracy theories."

"Paranoid schtsophrinia is a treatable disease now.

Please see some one about your problems. There is nothing wrong with admitting that you are nuts. 21st century medicine has cures for just about anything. This is our official response. I hope you keep your word and have it published."

I have taken the time to carefully review the submission of Mr von Abele Your response, in my view was unprofessional and irresponsible. In fact I am in agreement with the main points profferredby Mr von Abele. He points out the confusion that the resolution has created, and seems to impute some deception to FMAT. While that may be ludicrous, you should have dealt with him in a civilised manner.

Terrorism or the culture that supports it is
not the correct starting point when examining the
problems facing Islam. The essence of terrorism is jihad. But for the legal doctrine of Jihad, Islamic terrorism would not exist. The doctrine of Jihad, as outmoded, uneven in its application and lacking any basis in a modern Western society. We must attack it even at the risk of being unpopular.

An exchange about this issues cannot occur
however when our President attacks people as clinically
insane or akin to that or Osama Bin Laden because they question FMAT's methodology and then state that such a diatribe is the official position of the organisation.

If you consider Mr von Abele or Robert Spencer insane than you must, by definition consider me insane as well. You and I have had great and extensive discussions on what is required for this rally and this organisation as a whole to truly achieve its objectives. You were in full accordance in our last conversation that we must challenge jihad ideology head on, with a thorough and sound strategic plan that I have been working on diligently. What happened?
Kamal I consider you a colleague a mate of
mine. I have put a lot of energy into this organisation as
well.

That being said, today because of this incident I am embarrassed to be a member of this organisation and upset that a lot of work that we have put in is going nowhere. You owe Mr von Abele a sincere apology for the way in which you treated him. He is a member of the public who is concerned that we are not doing all that we can. And as I have told you repeatedly we are pissing in the wind right now because we have no real plan of action.

All that being said, unless we change course immediately and address jihad and not just
terrorism as the source of the problem, and call for the elimination of the legal or moral principle of jihad I cannot be a part of this organisation. We can't wait until after the rally, we must do it then. In order for me to continue to be a part of this organisation I ask you to apologise to him and address his legitimate concerns.

If these things do not occur, please respectfully note that my resignation will be effective immediately.

Wa salam

Will you here and now declare that you are absolutely opposed to any rationale by which "Islam" may through any type of physical violence defend itself, on the basis that only secular nation-states through secular laws & politics should be empowered to defend threatened groups (including Islam) constituted within them through secular citizenship?

Yes. I accept this with everything that I have. I reject any right of Islam to defend itself through any form of violence, war or armed conflict. This si why I struggle with FMAT. On one level it calls for the separation of Islam and the state, on the other hand it discusses (in teh resolution) jihad and hisbarah, in an attempt to make a legal distinction.

Ibn waraq was right in saying that we need to concentrate on marginalising Islam to "the prerson".

Again, I apologise. I hope reading my letter to Kamal gves you a better chance to understand where I stand. I should have sent you an email myself about this when this happened. Robert Spencer was the one who contacted me about this, not Kamal.

Did Robert forward you Kamal's response to my email?

Cheers
Thomas

Yours sicnerely

Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 12:48 AM

duh swami:

Fair enough.

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 12:50 AM

Right on. Lord knows I always take the high road. Never give offense, etc. After all, who (in his right mind) would really want to offend a muslim, defile a quran, insult mohammed, yada, yada, yada?

Treat them with kid gloves. That's what I always say.

Posted by: Havoc at May 20, 2005 1:40 AM

Right on. Lord knows I always take the high road. Never give offense, etc. After all, who (in his right mind) would really want to offend a muslim, defile a quran, insult mohammed, yada, yada, yada?

Treat them with kid gloves. That's what I always say.

Posted by: Havoc at May 20, 2005 1:41 AM

Right on. Lord knows I always take the high road. Never give offense, etc. After all, who (in his right mind) would really want to offend a muslim, defile a quran, insult mohammed, yada, yada, yada?

Treat them with kid gloves. That's what I always say.

Posted by: Havoc at May 20, 2005 1:41 AM

Events such as these run in the collective Sikh memory:

`It is said that in order to bring the children to submission to Islam, they were made to enter, next day, through a very small door while the Quran was displayed on the other side. The idea was that as the children would enter the door with their heads down, they would then be told that they had bowed to the holy Quran and thereby to Islam. When the children saw that trap, the seven years old Sahibzada Fateh Singh threw his feet first instead of his head while entering through the small door. Throwing the feet towards the Quran meant an insult to Islam. Wazir Khan, therefore, could not conquer the nine and seven years old children of Guru Gobind Singh. When every effort failed to convert the children to Islam, it was finally ordered that they should be bricked alive in the wall. A wall was, therefore, built step by step on their tender limbs until it came up to the shoulders of Sahibzada Fateh Singh. The executioner advanced with his sword, and asked whose head he should chop off first? Upon this Sahibzada Fateh Singh said," Listen O executioner, since the wall has reached my shoulders first, therefore cut off my head first." Sahibzada Zorawar Singh exhorted,"No, you cannot cut off his head till you do mine, because I am the eldest and therefore, I have the right to go first. Cut off my head first." Hearing such a strange debate, the wholeassembly of Wazir Khan's court was stunned. The small children were ridiculing the angel of death. The chronicler states that Sahibzada Fateh Singh's head was cut off first.`
http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurus/gurugobind7.htm#1

An estimated 60 million Hindus were the victims of Jihad.
So let`s see someone make a movie on that Islamic hate. Their Peace is a whole crock.

Posted by: hutchrun at May 20, 2005 1:56 AM

Thanks Thomas, I appreciate and am heartened by your comments contained in your letter to Kamal.

You mentioned to Kamal that you agree with my "main points"; does this imply there are some of my points you don't agree with? If so, which ones?

Secondly, You wrote to Kamal: "You were in full accordance in our last conversation that we must challenge jihad ideology head on, with a thorough and sound strategic plan that I have been working on diligently. What happened?"

You must know that a person can "challenge jihad ideology head on" and yet still leave wiggle-room open for a loophole. (So perhaps nothing "happened" with Kamal in that intervening time.) Nothing short of abolishing all forms of jihad that involve or countenance physical violence will suffice (including all forms of corporal punishment of Muslims by Muslims using Sharia for the purpose of maintaining religious purity) -- and I assume you would agree.

Lastly, I still don't understand why you remain a Muslim and what in your mind remains of Islam after you've peeled away & discarded so much of what constituted Mohammed's raison d'être...

Posted by: metaxy at May 20, 2005 1:59 AM

Thomas
I refer to all Muslims as
Nazis, Muszis, Trolls, Liars and scumbags.

I do not hide behind the computer like yourself.

Well Thomas It so happens I live in Indonesia,and a lot of the time I am traveling into the small towns and villages.I have for the last 7 yrs mingled with Muslims on the streets and in the rice paddies.Daily I mix with muslins who do not know the art of Taquiyah,you cannot discuss with these people,you say one word against.Islam,they will cut your head off.I have even had 300 Muslim outside my house,threatening to kill me and burn my house down,just because I asked them to turn their speaker down when calling for prayer at 3 o,clock in the morning I have had my car smashed by a mob of Muslims who later went on to burn down several churches in Situbondo. More than once I have a long knife drawn against me.
Yes,you may have worked in these places as an adviser for United Nations High Commission,doing little field trips,and being sheltered,this is not the same as living with muslins.Try discussing Islam with the village chief or local Iman in his own language with a bottle of Chivas, not in some 5 Star Hotel with all expenses paid.Discussing with a lot of Taquiyah merchants,over a cup of mint tea.Seems you had a few hookahs too many
Driving around in a United Nations High Commission Jeep is not the same as walking through the rice paddies bare footed.I know the Muslim at street level and Thomas you would not last ten minutes here,in fact you would be scared stiff,as I can go into areas where the police do not like to go.
All I can say is,you have seem some of the horrors committed by Muslims,yet you still believe you can reform these monsters,you are either a total idiot or your are being paid very well
for trying to fool us.
I have read most of your posts earlier,at first I thought WOW a Muslim that is different.but the more I think about what you write the more dubious I get.It just does not ring true.
When seeing four-five hundred angry muslims drivng toward me smashing all the cars as they approach tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When govermement are supporting terror covertly
such as in Indonesia,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslims rampage and kill 17 muslims just because some jerk flushed a cheap book down the toilet,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslims kill school kids in the classrooms and on busses,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslims cut the sex organs by force of non believers and children,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When in the last 5 yrs muslims have committed 2300 terror attacks tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslim cannot send relief to Aceh,but can send terroists[Laskar Jihad],tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslim produce heroin and export world wide they say nothing,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslim gang rape kafirs saying its okay because it was okay with mohammed.tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When muslims invade the public urinals every Friday to wash their feet,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
When only 50 muslim protest against Islamic terror,tells me that Islam cannot be reformed
These are the reasons and I have no problem to find thousand more.So this why I refer to all Muslims as Nazis, Muszis, Trolls, Liars and scumbags.It is your choice to be a muslim,You choose to be a muslim then this is the stigma that follows you.You are but one voice against the actions of thousands.
And deceit is preached in islam so why should I believe you or any other muslim,when this is from your war manual
Bukhari:V6B60N662 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.’”
As I have said before you are either a total idiot or your are being paid very well.
And I firmly believe that islam cannot be reformed,because I think I have travelled a little bit more than you in Islamic lands.I was in Morroco in the ealy 70,s and done bussiness there,and I have not stopped traveling since.My know ledge of muslims comes from the streets not behind a keyboard or classroom or some comferrence in some hotellobby,or from the air conditioned cabin of a SUV.I have smelt Islam,from the tanneries of Marrakesh,the opiun houses in Afganistan,the redlight distict of Istanbul to then open sewers in Surabaya.
So Thomas you may be able to pull the wool over some peoples eyes But there are some posters here who have travelled around islamia,but unlike you we do not get salaries,therefore be more free to travel more freely and are not paid to only report what our employers pay us to report

Posted by: shiva at May 20, 2005 2:18 AM

The Myth Of Mecca:

`For al-Rawandi, Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab imperialism. The Conquest is the reason and explanation for Islam, not the other way around.

While there may well have been a historical individual named Ubu'l Kassim who was later entitled Mohammed ("The Praised One"), who raised followers and participated in the initiation of the Arab Conquest, he likely came from northeast Arabia in what is now southern Jordan. The deity that Ubu'l Kassim chose to follow was Allah, a contraction of al-Lah, the ancient Arab God of the Moon [note: which is why the symbol of Islam to this day is the crescent moon]. Ubu'l Kassim died, however, some years before the Arab Conquest was fully under way (the traditional date is 632). Al-Rawandi summarizes what then happened:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/24/152943.shtml

Posted by: hutchrun at May 20, 2005 2:19 AM

Shiva:

What you say is true and Thomas Haidon is merely practising his legalese (i think he is a lawyer as i read in frontpage)-and failing rather badly.

Being in Indonesia your assertions are supported by the Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia (Head of Organization Of Islamic Countries):

`Dato' Seri Najib kicked the ball first to insist to insist none should openly debate if Muslims could slander the followers of other religions`

in response to:

`Non-Malays living in the vicinity of mosques in Kuala Lumpur hear this call to arms against the non-Muslims through high-pitches megaphones`
http://mggpillai.com/article.php3?sid=2049...

Posted by: hutchrun at May 20, 2005 2:31 AM

Greetings metaxy

You must know that a person can "challenge jihad ideology head on" and yet still leave wiggle-room open for a loophole. (So perhaps nothing "happened" with Kamal in that intervening time.) Nothing short of abolishing all forms of jihad that involve or countenance physical violence will suffice (including all forms of corporal punishment of Muslims by Muslims using Sharia for the purpose of maintaining religious purity) -- and I assume you would agree.

Lastly, I still don't understand why you remain a Muslim and what in your mind remains of Islam after you've peeled away & discarded so much of what constituted Mohammed's raison d'être...

I do agree with you, wholeheartedly. I agreed with all of your points. the entire ideology, philoshopy and theology of Jihad is reprehensible. Even a cursory reading of Surah 9 will tell us this. I read Bukhari and read how the Prophet authorised the rape of slave girls and it makes my stomach turn. Believe me.

I am a a Muslim, to my own peril perhaps, because I think I can help some Muslims make something of it. To me, if Islam does not change, Muslims will end up dying. Non-Muslims can only take so much of daily attacks, and continuing denials. Perhaps, I will not always feel this way. Perhaps I will not always be Muslim. Perhaps I am holding on so desperately. Leaving Islam is not an easy thing to do. To be perfectly honest as I can be, I have a wife and a great life. Leaving Islam could be a quick end. I have my own doubts about Islam's reforms...

Cheers
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 2:34 AM

Hi Shiva:

I am out the door and do not have alot of time to address all of the point s you have made so I am sorry for this. But I do have a better understanding of where you are coming from. If you are in Indonesia, then you are faced with many evils of Islam (i have been there as well). I have travlelled quite a bit as well. And I guess I could be doing more.

Thank you for your response. I will respond in more detail when the chance arises again.

Cheers
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 3:33 AM

Hi Shiva:

I am out the door and do not have alot of time to address all of the point s you have made so I am sorry for this. But I do have a better understanding of where you are coming from. If you are in Indonesia, then you are faced with many evils of Islam (i have been there as well). I have travlelled quite a bit as well. And I guess I could be doing more.

Thank you for your response. I will respond in more detail when the chance arises again.

Cheers
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 3:34 AM

Well Thomas looks like you are in a blind alley
And you did not learn the important/golden rule concerning islam.
And it is SHH SHH keep your lips buttoned now
you have on one side the Muslim threatening you
and on the other side the kafirs cursing you.
You should not have been so open with your views and advertising your where abouts.As you know,or should know.your line of thinking goes against some very powerful people who would not think twice about killing you and your family.You are endangering yourself and your love ones,is islam worth it,does your wife know the risks.Do you truelly understand the muslim mindset.If you do understand then I am justified in calling you the names I have called you.
As a person you may be a nice guy,but by proclaiming to be a Muslim,you are siding with some really ugly types.
As I have said before I do not call for the killing of all Muslims,as I do know that the biggest percent of Muslims would leave Islam once the oppressors are taken care of.
There was a poster here,Naseen who unwittingly described how Islam draws people in,but the same description was identical to the perils of opium.
Just think of Islam as you would heroin,the high is good,but you are blind to the reality,you end up lying to yourself.it rots you from the inside,and destroys everything around you,and to leave it can cause a lot of pain,leaving you empty empty.
Thomas you and your wife are more important than any religion.Just be a good man,try follow the ten commndments.Try to Be kind. Be compassionate. Be honest. Be sincere. Be truthful. Be bold. Be pure. Be wise. Be virtuous. Enquire: 'who am I'? Know thy-Self and be free.
Not easy to follow 100% perfect but at least you will find that trying the above is much bettr than following any religion.And less dangerous

Posted by: shiva at May 20, 2005 3:34 AM

Thomas you and your wife are more important than any religion.Just be a good man,try follow the ten commndments.Try to Be kind. Be compassionate. Be honest. Be sincere. Be truthful. Be bold. Be pure. Be wise. Be virtuous. Enquire: 'who am I'? Know thy-Self and be free.

Thank you for this Shiva

Posted by: Thomas at May 20, 2005 3:37 AM

Shiva-

The difference between heroin addiction and Islam is that you can kick the former and no one will try to kill you for it.

In Islam, the pushers will not allow you to detox.

(I have wondered why Thomas is so open with his location, last name, email address, etc., knowing full well that his Muslim brothers are a few screws short of a crankcase and have a funny tendency to homicidal rages when they smell a hint of apostacy... I'm not a believer, and even I know better than to give them anything to go on online... best to remain buffered by a nom de guerre against potentially prying psychopaths.)

Posted by: BigSleep at May 20, 2005 4:15 AM

Generally speaking it is true that it is difficult for muslims in muslim dominated areas to leave Islam.

However, in e.g.Punjab (India) there are cases of whole families converting out of Islam.
In Malaysia where there is a 60:40 situation muslims do leave islam but their experiences are bitter:

As recently as 1992 a young lady in university in the USA converted from Islam to become a Christian. She took a Christian name and started wearing western style clothes, abandoning the chador, and was opening speaking of her faith. She also said she was preparing to die, for her family back in Malaysia would send a hit man and kill her here in the USA.
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/malaysia.htm

Posted by: hutchrun at May 20, 2005 5:03 AM

Robert, you'd do us all a big favor if you would ban Catherine.

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at May 20, 2005 5:45 AM

Kim Hartveld:

Catherine is a longtime, much-valued contributor at JW and she has a lot of fans. She has posted a lot of valuable information and many appreciate her efforts and thank her for them regularly.

As a regular, I haven't noticed much of value being shared by you.

Posted by: CGW at May 20, 2005 7:25 AM

Kim Hartveld:

BTW, if you don't like her posts, you're free to skip over them. Some of us gain valuable information from them and your personal preferences should not dictate our access to that information nor deny us interaction with a loyal, devoted and committed anti-jihadist that has stuck with this fight for much longer than you've been around.

In the coming Conflict (and I assure you it will come), I want CATHERINE at my back - I can't say the same for you.

Posted by: CGW at May 20, 2005 7:30 AM

Thomas Haidon:

I ask this question in good faith.

Exactly why are you here, preaching to the choir? (Aside from lecturing us endlessly about the style and content of our posts.) Are you looking for solidarity? If you are truly committed to the ideals you claim to espouse, you are adding nothing of value here, and that is why people consider you insincere. If you're looking for a way out of islam, we'll support you wholeheartedly (I daresay more than you've imagined); you'll find no firmer allies.

If you are sticking with islam to "help" other muslims find a way out of their 1350-year traditional ideology, I can't help but consider you enormously misguided and naif (as many others here have stated); if this is the Task for which you have been Chosen, or even if you have misguidedly chosen it yourself, I pity you and predict unequivocally your complete and utter failure. You will not convince even one soul that will matter in the long run, as those souls will perish along with the hardliners that you will never be able to reach.

How's that reading of St. Catherine of Sienna going?

CGW

Posted by: CGW at May 20, 2005 7:46 AM

Yes, sometimes comments here get out of hand--probably because of the frustration cuased by the mainstream media's omission or skipping over information revealed here at JW. Sometimes those who post are venting so that (1) they can maintain their sanity and/or (2) they don't explode elsewhere. Also, some posts are lols.

Being politically incorrect (as in, take down the Wahhabi-infested mosques) does not necessarily mean being hate-filled.

Posted by: WatchfulEye at May 20, 2005 7:58 AM

Pheww it ain't easy being pissed of and polite at the same time
All I can say Thomas,is please be very careful in the future,what ever path you take.
My advice to you is get a big dog,maybe a rottwieller.I am not insulting you just now.I am being serious,You mentioned that you already have been threaten If you are not bullshitting us here then I would not like something to happen to you.You should know that Muslims are permitted to keep dogs,for herding and security.You will have the best friend you could ever hope for.You do not have to worry about the myth of saliva,as saliva contains a lot of anti-biotic.Also there are few famous breeds that come from Muslim land,Afghan for one.There is no problems for a Muslims to have a dog,I have been helping the police[Muslims] here for several years training rotties.Any Muslim that tells me that dogs are harem in islam just proves to me that they do not understand Islam,and you would be surprised how dont know
Should you decide for a dog do not call it mahud
or you will be asking for more trouble

Posted by: shiva at May 20, 2005 11:45 AM

CGW: just hoping to get her to come out screaming like a lunatic.

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at May 20, 2005 12:35 PM

While I am fairly new here in my postings I have been reading JW for a few months longer and I find that I cannot agree with Robert more.
I have found this site very informative and educational and it is nice to see the ideas and comments of others. But as Robert stated we must do it in the proper manner.
One thing that I remember hearing in my youth (hate to think that far back sometimes) was that we should not become like what we are against or we are no better. Also if one does something to become dishonourable and one losses that honour what have you got left? So I agree with Robert and lets keep the comments and opinions respectful and honourable and that way we can show our honour to even those that wish to do us harm and more importantly to our host.

Posted by: First Knight at May 20, 2005 2:01 PM

By the time I log on - here in California - it's late in the day.

So if I post a question - all you guys 'back East' are already logged off. If someone does answer the question - how would I ever find it (the answer)?

I would tire quickly looking thru all the posts on the next days Jihad Watch trying to find my answer from someone.

May I suggest that there be a posting place just for answered question. [And not comments].

My Question a couple of days ago was:Were any of the 17 killed in the Koran for toilet paper riots - anyone of importance - or were they just run of the mill kind of peole who got caught up in a crowd? How was they killed - accidental or on purpose or ....

thanx - Kleo2x - 4:49pm

Posted by: kleo at May 20, 2005 7:52 PM

Kleo:

Post your questions on the top thread of the day, or one where there seem to be a lot of posts (a "hot" thread), then check back the next day if you can't hang around for awhile. Posting on threads a day or two old will usually (not always) get no response.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your question, but try posting it on the latest thread from today and keep checking back to that same thread.

Posted by: CGW at May 20, 2005 8:41 PM

Catherine, I too am a fan. If not for you're excellent contributions to this site I'd have to do more work than I could cope with. And your fashion statements keep my heart racing.

I have promised I won't commit any further outrages on this site, so I'll refrain from commenting further on just how interesting I find your mini-skirt images, your pistols, and your shoes. I believe Spencer is right in advising us to take it easy in our letters, though I'm particularly fond of mauve silk mini-skirts and shoes with bows on them. But I promised not to let myself go crazy here, so I'll keep it under controlllll. Yes, I will. I I I mean it. I will. I WON'T LET THIS GET OUT OF CONTROL I PROMISE.

ARRRoooo.

I am in control. dkgitjhe,fl;gp.

Posted by: sonofwalker at May 21, 2005 2:40 AM

First Knight,

"One thing that I remember hearing in my youth (hate to think that far back sometimes) was that we should not become like what we are against or we are no better."

The thing is, not even the most flagrantly rude poster here will EVER be like the Muslims. Your old saw you remember hearing from your youth assumes a moral equivalency, and in this issue, there is none. During World War II, the Allies had to do tragically horrible things -- and still they did not become "like them" (like the Nazis and Fascists).

Almost 4 years have gone by since 911, and look at the incredible restraint shown by Americans, and by the Russian people, and by the Spanish people, (and of course by the Jews whose innocent brothers and sisters have been mass-murdered for decades now), and by the people of all those countries whose innocent workers have been hideously beheaded!

In this kind of context, it is not only fallacious to worry about us becoming "like them" -- it is positively reprehensible.

Posted by: metaxy at May 21, 2005 4:01 AM

First Knight,

"One thing that I remember hearing in my youth (hate to think that far back sometimes) was that we should not become like what we are against or we are no better."

The thing is, not even the most flagrantly rude poster here will EVER be like the Muslims. Your old saw you remember hearing from your youth assumes a moral equivalency, and in this issue, there is none. During World War II, the Allies had to do tragically horrible things -- and still they did not become "like them" (like the Nazis and Fascists).

Almost 4 years have gone by since 911, and look at the incredible restraint shown by Americans, and by the Russian people, and by the Spanish people, (and of course by the Jews whose innocent brothers and sisters have been mass-murdered for decades now), and by the people of all those countries whose innocent workers have been hideously beheaded!

In this kind of context, it is not only fallacious to worry about us becoming "like them" -- it is positively reprehensible.

Posted by: metaxy at May 21, 2005 4:03 AM

The grim horrible truth is we may have to become more like them before this situation is finished.
If anybody thinks that they are going to live peacefully with us them,they are totally wrong.
In recent history the only people who have dealt with the muslims are the DAYAKS in Indonesia.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/borneo2.htm
By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer

KUALAKUAYAN, Indonesia - Deep in the heartland of Borneo Island, a civil servant named Manarung explains why his tribe is perfectly justified in massacring hundreds of people and driving out tens of thousands of others.
"They did not respect our culture.Religion also comes into it. The Dayaks blend Christianity and animism, and many Muslim Madurese are offended by some Dayak practices, such as eating pork. The Madurese are all thieves and murderers," he said, sitting in his wooden hut on the banks of the Mentaya River, which snakes through dense rain forest.
His fellow Dayak tribespeople went on a rampage last month, killing more than 450 settlers from the island of Madura, beheading or ripping the hearts out of many.
Manarung who represents the government in the village of Kualakuayan and who, like many Indonesians, uses only one name - said he personally didn't kill anyone. But it was Dayaks from his small village who are alleged to have massacred 118 settlers on a soccer field in the neighboring village of Parenggean on Feb. 25 in the worst incident in two weeks of bloodshed that began in mid-February.
On Tuesday, 6,000 refugees, many barefoot and carrying their belongings on their heads disembarked from a passenger liner in the port of Surabaya on Indonesia's main island, Java, after escaping the slaughter on Borneo.
"I would like to return but I am afraid they (the Dayaks) will cut my head off," said Marsari, a 52-year-old coconut farmer with 10 children and 7 grandchildren, who hid in the jungle for 10 days before being evacuated.
More than 65,000 people have been evacuated, said local government spokesman Taufik Hidayat. Around 10,000 more remain in two camps in the town of Sampit. On Tuesday, a Dayak gang hacked one to death when he strayed from the camp, medical workers said.
Thrust into modernity after centuries of isolation, many Dayaks feel disenfranchised in their own land. Traditional bonds to the rain forest have been largely severed by government and business interests eager to exploit the vast resource-rich region.
Dayaks have moved out of the forest and into cities and towns and languish at the bottom of the economic ladder. As the economy has nosedived in recent years, they have found someone to blame: the Madurese.
The Madurese were first brought to the Indonesian half of Borneo in large numbers as part of government effort to relieve overcrowding in other parts of the country. The ethnic tensions caused by those migrations were largely suppressed during the 32-year dictatorship of former President Suharto - but started to boil after Suharto's 1998 ouster.

IN THE MUSLIMS EYE OUR LIBERAL PEACEFUL WAYS IS OUR WEAKNESS

Posted by: shiva at May 22, 2005 4:49 AM