They'll wait until the U.S. withdraws from Iraq before the hardcore Koranic cards come out on the table.

No Shiite.

Posted by: BigSleep at May 27, 2005 10:24 AM

Maybe so, BigSleep, but there's a possibility, however small, that the broad population is sick of the bloodshed. The lack of local support for the insurgency suggests as much (hence all the suicide bombing instead of other kinds of "operations"). Only time will tell.

One thing I do find interesting is that all of the usual suspects who like to dismiss the election as having been rigged by the US don't seem to see the disconnect between their claim and the fact that the party least favoured by the US did get the most votes. In other words, if the voters were influenced by anyone in their choices, it was by their religious leaders and not any "external" forces.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at May 27, 2005 11:16 AM

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006721

Posted by: CGW at May 27, 2005 4:43 PM

waterdragon52-

I don't doubt that the Shiite majority is tired of being targeted by the Sunni/Baathist/ foreign jihadists.

And agree that the election wasn't rigged.

But that doesn't mean that anything good will come of it.

Iran's Shiites are just looking for 'protestant' allies in the region to hate the Sunnis with. Iraqi's Shiites are ripe for collaboration.

And the rest of the Muslim world won't hate the U.S. any less because we "failed to rig the election". We are still 'Crusaders'. They will just latch onto Abu Graib or the Koran toilet caper for another millenium of outrage. (We can be hated for a myriad of ridiculous 'reasons'.)

The sooner we can get the hell out of Iraq the better. Let them murder one another -over the ancient assassination of Mohammad's direct kin Hussein or the usurpation of the Caliphate by the cousin Sunnis -on their own.

We had to check out the WMD rumor. It turned out to be Saddam's fatal bluff. Now we can turn the Iraqi government over to the locals (chastised and warned against any further WMD ideas, one hopes) and get back to tracking down and killing Osama and his demented horde.

Posted by: BigSleep at May 27, 2005 10:34 PM

Instead, the United Iraqi Alliance, the Shiite coalition that won the most seats in January's elections, will advocate retaining the moderate language of Iraq's temporary constitution that was drawn up under the auspices of the American occupation authority.

Ahem Moderate? Do they mean this constitution

. Iraqi Interim Constitution

[(A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period. This Law respects the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and guarantees the full religious rights of all individuals to freedom of religious belief and practice.

(B) Iraq is a country of many nationalities, and the Arab people in Iraq are an inseparable part of the Arab nation.

Article A makes clear that Shari'a is the law of the land
Article B makes clear that Iraqi Arabs are part of the pan Arab or Arab Nationalist movement (Nasser or the Ba'aths)

Afghanistan an Islamic Nation

Afghanistan Draft Constitution

Article One Ch. 1. Art. 1

Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic, independent, unitary and indivisible state.

Article Two Ch. 1, Art. 2

The religion of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam.

Followers of other religions are free to perform their religious ceremonies within the limits of the provisions of law.

Article Three Ch. 1, Art. 3

In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of this Constitution.

Compare the above to the Taliban Constitution

ARTICLE ONE:
THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN IS AN INDEPENDENT, UNITARY AND INDIVISIBLE AND ISLAMIC STATE, HAVING SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE WHOLE OF ITS TERRITORY. NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY IN THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE. THE PEOPLE EXERCISE NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY THROUGH LOYA JIRGA AND NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.
ARTICLE TWO: THE SACRED RELIGION OF ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF AFGHANISTAN. IN THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN NO LAW SHALL RUN COUNTER TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SACRED RELIGION OF ISLAM AND OTHER VALUES ENSHRINED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.

Compare the above Constitutions to The

Posted by: Giaour at May 28, 2005 12:51 AM

"BAGHDAD, Iraq - Shiite legislators have decided not to push for a greater role for Islam in the new Iraqi constitution out of concern that the contentious issue will inflame religious sentiments and deepen sectarian tensions.

Instead, the United Iraqi Alliance, the Shiite coalition that won the most seats in January's elections, will advocate retaining the moderate language of Iraq's temporary constitution that was drawn up under the auspices of the American occupation authority."

This is GREAT NEWS!!! I read some parts of the temporary constitution and it was remarkably similar to American laws/values/morals. Iraqis lived for 30 years under a secular government. I've heard interviews from Iraqis saying that because of the secular government that they lived under that they are not used to and don't want the Sharia-style Islamic state. Looks like Iraq's permanent constitution will reflect this yearning for more freedom and democracy. YAY!!!

Posted by: Freedom1 at May 28, 2005 1:44 AM

Giaour-

Thanks for the Iraqi Constitutional quotes.

It's worse than I thought.

And somehow I have even less hope for the 'permanent' Constitution.

The U.S./Brit influence is less now than it was when we worked to 'impose' our will on this 'interim' legal document (a clear total failure), and our sway on their 'judicial restraint' will dimish as we get closer to leaving.

The only hope we have is to get them watching Western satellite t.v. and reading a broader range of sources from the outside world, and hope their kids revolt against the strictures and stupidities of Sharia from the natural human organic desire for freedom.

(But I ain't betting more than 2 cents on it.)

Posted by: BigSleep at May 28, 2005 2:18 AM

Text of the Temporary Iraqi Constitution:

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html

A few articles of interest:

Article 7.

(A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation.

NOTE: Islam is "a" source of legislation, not "the" source of legislation. That means Sharia is only a source of legislation, not the only source of legislation. Other forms of legislation can be considered and implemented.

Article 12.

All Iraqis are equal in their rights without regard to gender, sect, opinion, belief, nationality, religion, or origin, and they are equal before the law. Discrimination against an Iraqi citizen on the basis of his gender, nationality, religion, or origin is prohibited. Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of his person. No one may be deprived of his life or liberty, except in accordance with legal procedures. All are equal before the courts.

Article 13.

(A) Public and private freedoms shall be protected.

(B) The right of free expression shall be protected.

(C) The right of free peaceable assembly and the right to join associations freely, as well as the right to form and join unions and political parties freely, in accordance with the law, shall be guaranteed.

(D) Each Iraqi has the right of free movement in all parts of Iraq and the right to travel abroad and return freely.

(E) Each Iraqi has the right to demonstrate and strike peaceably in accordance with the law.

(F) Each Iraqi has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religious belief and practice. Coercion in such matters shall be prohibited.

(G) Slavery, the slave trade, forced labor, and involuntary servitude with or without pay, shall be forbidden.

(H) Each Iraqi has the right to privacy.

Posted by: Freedom1 at May 28, 2005 3:12 AM

Good or Bad, the Transitional Law is MUCH BETTER than anything they would have come up with on their own. NO ONE else can be killed over additional "fake toilet" type stories about the Constitution.

Granted, that will not stop the no-brain Satanic Muslims, but only Death stops them, so these Legislators are wise.

Posted by: leaddog2 at May 28, 2005 7:29 AM

Freedom1 the salient thing is that Shari'a is the basis of the constitution and law.

And that phrase nullifies all the subsequent nice sounding articles and sub articles you use as rationalization for your affection for the Iraqi constitituoin.

Leaddog2, Your comment about people being killed over fake toilet stories is a non sequitur, and a straw man fallacy.

Posted by: Giaour at May 28, 2005 12:02 PM

I might add Freedom1, that despite Article 13 of the Iraqi Interim constitution. None of those freedoms are provided, they are trumped by Shari'a.

In Basra vendors of alcohol have been murdered. Basra is Shi'a.

Worse since the new government women cannot travel abroad and get a passport without the written permission of a male guardian (as in Iran), and that means failing a husband, uncle, brother her own son.

About the only "right" they have is to vote, in their mandatory Chador/Abaya of course.

And freedom of worship isn't doing so good, Christians are being persecuted and over 40,000 have fled to Syria. Can't talk of Jewish persecution, as there are only a bare handful in Iraq.

Posted by: Giaour at May 28, 2005 12:22 PM

It's good to remember, though, that "Islamic republic" probably has at least as many, if not more, meanings than "Christian republic". Many people probably consider Islam to be sweet and sugar and family values - just like Christianity in the west.

Moreover, remember that the man who gave Iraqis freedom from oppression and tyranny used pretty much the same rhetoric, just substituting "Islam" for "Christianity".

Time will tell.

"No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted during the transitional period."

Well, this one is bunk. I can't think of more than a handful of laws that wouldn't contradict either Sharia law or the principles of democracy.

Posted by: bastardos at May 29, 2005 7:48 AM