Jihad Watch: Spencer: The Global Jihad: Made in the U.S.A.?

June 15, 2005

Spencer: The Global Jihad: Made in the U.S.A.?

Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer discusses some prevailing winds in today's FrontPage:

Holland and France have rejected the EU Constitution, and word is getting out that the main reason they did was out of concern for the growing Muslim presence in those countries, which threatens to remake those societies into Islamic states before this century is out — and which the proposed Constitution did nothing to address. But the European votes have given PC establishment analysts just another pretext to claim that today’s global jihad is really all our fault. James Carroll opined recently in the Boston Globe that “among the factors leading to the French and Dutch rejections of the European constitution last week, none looms more ominously than the nightmare of antagonism between ‘the West’ and Islam. Many Europeans fear a rising tide of green, both within the continent and from outside it. Where once communists threatened, now Muslims do. A new wall is being built.”
Carroll is not original in this. This was a much-retailed thesis as long ago as 1999, when Abdus Sattar Ghazali, a Pakistani journalist who has served as Assistant Editor for the Pakistani daily Dawn and editor-in-chief of Kuwait TV’s English News, wrote that “the demise of the Cold War involving the USA and the Soviet Union at the beginning of the 1990s left military strategists in the West searching for a new enemy.” Ghazali saw it as part of a conscious and long-range strategy: “To borrow [from] Richard Conder, author of the Munchurian [sic] Candidate: ‘Now that the communists have been put to sleep, we are going to have to invent another terrible threat.’ Former US Secretary of Defence, McNamara, in his 1989 testimony before the Senate Budget Committee, stated that defense spending could safely be cut in half over five years. For the Pentagon it was a simple choice: either find new enemies or cut defense spending. Topping the list of potential bogeymen were the Yellow Peril, the alleged threat to US economic security emanating from the East Asia, and the so-called Green Peril (green representing Islam). The Pentagon selected ‘Islamic fundamentalism’ and ‘rogue states’ as the new bogeymen.”

When Ghazali wrote that in 1999, a year had passed since the 1998 bombings of the American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya. It had been five years since the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Other notorious incidents of Islamic terror were even farther back in the past: the Iran hostage crisis of 1979, the attack on the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983, the hijacking of TWA flight 847 and the hijacking of the Achille Lauro in 1985, the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 in 1988, and so on. Ghazali conceded that radical Islam “has not been invented by Western politicians” — in the face of all the facts, how could he not? But he adds that even though politicians didn’t invent it, radical Islam “is being used by them.” Used for what? Ghazali concludes that “instead of reducing the military apparatus in the West to a symbolic vestige or getting rid of it altogether and thinking about ‘security’ completely afresh, new threats are being invented to serve the old purpose. This is our main problem, not an Islamic fundamentalist threat which, in any case, could only be dealt with by political and economic means.”

Carroll sees this trumped-up war heating up today: “Given escalations of the war in Iraq together with widely reported instances of Koran-denigration by US interrogators, such trends in Europe make the global war on terror seem expressly a war against Islam. The ‘clash of civilizations’ seems closer at hand than ever.”

Notice how 9/11 doesn't enter into this calculus. For Carroll it is as if the war in Iraq and ‘instances of Koran-denigration’ were just acts of unprovoked aggression by the West. Then he schoolmarmishly tells us that in order “to make sense of this dangerous condition, it can help to recall some of the forgotten or misremembered history that prepared for it, from the remote origins of the conflict to its manifestations in the not so distant past.” When did this dangerous and unprovoked demonization of Muslims begin? Why, with the Crusades, of course.

“As the story is usually told in Europe and America,” Carroll tells us, “the problem began when a jihad-driven army of ‘infidel’ Saracens, having brutalized Christians in the ‘Holy Land,’ threatened ‘Christendom’ itself with conquests right into the heart of present-day France. Charles Martel is the hero of primal European romances because he defeated the Muslim army near Tours in 733. But for Martel, Edward Gibbon wrote, ‘the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford.’” Carroll’s words here connote fable: “as the story is usually told in Europe and America…” He seems to be trying to get away with suggesting it didn’t really happen this way, although he doesn’t come out and say that. And why not? Because the historical record shows that it did happen that way. But Carroll downplays the idea that “across subsequent centuries, in the European memory, Islam posed the great threat to the emerging Christian order.” In fact, he says, “Lombards, Normans, Vikings, forces from the Slavic east, and violent contests among Christians themselves all wreaked havoc in Europe, even in Martel’s time.”
Lombards, Normans, Vikings, threats to the emerging Christian order? In fact, all were already Christian or soon Christianized. The jihad threat was perceived as greater because it was greater: it would have entailed the utter destruction of Christian society, or, as Carroll puts it with sneer quotes, ‘Christendom,’ and its replacement with Sharia. The Lombards, Normans, and Vikings never threatened to do anything remotely approaching that. The Islamic threat may have been “one among many” militarily, but not culturally or religiously.

But Carroll is sure that those dastardly European Christians, in their quest to demonize “The Other,” imagined it all: the Islamic threat “was defined as transcendent only with the later Crusades, when Latin Christian armies set out to rescue that ‘Holy Land’ and roll back Islamic conquests. The crusading impulse presumed a demonizing of Saracens that was justified neither by the threat they actually posed nor by their treatment of Christians in Palestine.” So now we have it: Martel was fighting a phantom army. Gibbon was being hysterical. But what if Martel had lost at Tours? Where would the jihad armies have stopped? How much of Europe would they have had to occupy and subjugate for Carroll to acknowledge that the threat from them was genuine?

And as for the treatment of Christians in Palestine in the decades just before the First Crusade, I discuss it at some length in my forthcoming book, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) (coming August 8 from Regnery). What was life like for the Christians in Palestine in the years leading up to the Crusades? Let's see: In 1004, the sixth Fatimid Caliph, Abu ‘Ali al-Mansur al-Hakim (985-1021) turned violently against the faith of his Christian mother and uncles (two of whom were Patriarchs) and ordered the destruction of churches, the burning of crosses, and the seizure of church property. He moved against the Jews with similar ferocity. Over the next ten years thirty thousand churches were destroyed, and untold numbers of Christians converted to Islam simply to save their lives. In 1009, al-Hakim commanded that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem be destroyed, along with several other churches (including the Church of the Resurrection). The Church of the Holy Sepulcher, rebuilt by the Byzantines in the seventh century after the Persians burned an earlier version, marks the traditional site of Christ’s burial. Al-Hakim piled on other humiliating decrees, culminating in the order that Christians and Jews accept Islam or leave his dominions.

He ultimately relaxed these decrees, and in 1027 the Byzantines were allowed to rebuild the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Nevertheless, Christians were in a precarious position and pilgrims remained under threat. In 1056, the Muslims expelled three hundred Christians from Jerusalem and forbade European Christians from entering the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. When the Seljuk Turks swept down from Central Asia, they enforced a new Islamic rigor, making life difficult for both native Christians and pilgrims (whose pilgrimages they blocked). After they crushed the Byzantines at Manzikert in 1071 and took the Byzantine Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes prisoner, all of Asia Minor was open to them — and their advance was virtually unstoppable. In 1076, they conquered Syria; in 1077, Jerusalem. The Seljuk Emir Atsiz bin Uwaq promised not to harm the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but once his men had entered the city, they murdered 3,000 people. But I guess Carroll would say they all committed suicide.

Carroll’s coup de grace is meant to fill his readers with foreboding about the contemporary situation: “Europe’s initiating ‘holy war’ with Islam…was based on flawed intelligence, propaganda, and threat exaggeration.” If Carroll had filmed Ridley Scott’s recent dhimmi Crusades flop, Kingdom of Heaven, he would have cast George W. Bush as the evil Crusader Guy of Lusignan. He ascribes “the political fanaticism that has lately seized the Arab Islamic religious imagination (exemplified in Osama bin Laden)” to “a defensive fending off of assault from ‘the West’ than in anything intrinsic to Islam.” Yet acceptance of his thesis here depends on the reader’s ignorance of the 450 years of jihadist aggression that preceded the Crusades and obliterated the Christian cultures of the Middle East and North Africa -- and which today’s jihadists consider to be the direct antecedent of their own efforts. Against what were the initial conquerors of Syria, Egypt, Constantinople, Spain and all the rest defending? What is the significance of the fact that today’s jihad terrorists hold to the same ideological and religious imperatives? You won’t get the answers from James Carroll.

Carroll concludes that “this conflict has its origins more in ‘the West’ than in the House of Islam. The image of Muslims as prone to violence by virtue of their religion was mainly constructed across centuries by Europeans seeking to bolster their own purposes, a habit of politicized paranoia that is masterfully continued by freaked-out leaders of post-9/11 America.” I doubt if Carroll has read a page of the Qur’an, or knows that Qur’anic verses such as 9:5 and 9:29 and many others are not just isolated, ignored religious texts, but have become the basis for an elaborate legal superstructure mandating warfare against unbelievers and endorsed by all the major schools of Sunni jurisprudence.

Carroll’s ignorance and distortions are in service of his larger project of casting Western defenders against the jihadist threat as the real enemy in this present conflict. If there weren’t so many people in government who believe as he does, he would be beneath notice. In Holland and France there are significant numbers that seem to know better, but the elites are going to take a long time to catch up.

Posted by Robert at June 15, 2005 7:52 AM
Print this entry | Email this entry | Digg this | del.icio.us

Comments
(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)

Having (unlike Spencer, it would appear) actually looked at the statistics, I can happily confirm the claim that the Netherlands is being besieged by Muslims is complete made-up nonsense.

And no Netherlander I've spoken to, online or otherwise, cited the Muslims as a factor in the constitution "no" (generally, it's more like "we don't like paying €2bn a year that gets given to the Spanish and the Greeks to waste...")

Posted by: john b

at June 15, 2005 8:05 AM

The jihad against America began at least as early as independence. Being free from Britain meant that America no longer had the powerful Royal Navy to protect her, so the Barbary Corsairs took advantage by starting to raid the coast of Virginia for slaves and attacking US shipping in the Mediterraenean.

When Jefferson became President he refused to continue paying what was in effect jizya to the Barbaries to leave America alone, but instead brought the US Navy to attack their bases in North Africa.

Also John Quincy Adam, 5th Presient said "Islam has declared war on the world", or words to that effect.

Posted by: Elephant

at June 15, 2005 8:40 AM

The James Carolls of the day will be swept away by the tidal-waves of reality.

Just like 'the Mossad blew up the WTC' or the CIA organized 'the implosions'- or the 4000 Jews that did not come to work on 9/11

For now we have a weak government. We have MANY weak governments in the West. That may change. Mohammedan countries have nothing. NOTHING. At least not yet. Once Iran has the bomb, then things will change, must change.

Ignore the idiocy of the the James Carolls:

' the West needing an new enemy'- We are at war with marauding Mohammedans since 1300 years. We have forgotten our history. The Carolls of this world are not looking at the Koran and the hadiths. But more and more of us will... Once we have a government that faces the music we will teach the Muzzies haw to dance to the tune. Just a matter of time...

Posted by: Terminator

at June 15, 2005 8:41 AM

As a Dutchman I have to agree with John that the Muslim presence didn't really factor into it, except maybe when people objected to Turkey joining the EU. I don't agree with the rest of his story, he seems to have it in for the late Pim Fortuyn who rightly so warned us about the islamization of Dutch and European culture. When you talk about Muslim immigrants you have to realize that basically every child and grandchild of a Muslim will bring another Muslim into the country. Muslim families are almost always larger than Dutch families. There are about one million Muslims living in Holland now already. They have an enormous impact on cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam where the majority will soon be of foreign origin. The Muslims are mostly not integrating into Dutch society and they cost us a fortune. That's official, this multicultural experiment cost the Dutch taxpayer billions. Every year 82 million euro goes to Moroccan immigrants that moved back to Morocco but are still living off of the Dutch welfare system. It will be similar for Turks. I'm not even talking about crime statistics. A quarter of illegal firearms is in the hands of people from Curacao. No doubt much of the rest is owned by Turks, Moroccons and Bosnians. Half the people in Belgian prisons is from outside the country. In Holland its not much different. So next time you compare people that don't want their countries to slide down into third world territory to knuckledraggers look at all the available facts. Pisspoor, illiterate and religiously orthodox immigrants are of no use to us at all.

Posted by: Leveller

at June 15, 2005 8:54 AM

A quote from your link johnb:
"This isn’t because they’re threatened by immigrants - there aren’t any. Rather, they’re threatened by the idea of immigrants, and haven’t encountered enough real-life ones to realise they don’t pose a threat. "
Tell that to Theo and Hirsi.

Posted by: crusader rabbit

at June 15, 2005 8:54 AM

This James Carroll fellow reminds me of his (sur)namesake Lewis Carroll. But at least the latter's fantasies (think "Alice in Wonderland") entertained children and were essentially harmless. James Carroll's fantasies, on the other hand, are both boring, disingenuous and downright dangerous!

Posted by: voletti

at June 15, 2005 9:07 AM

‘Now that the communists have been put to sleep, we are going to have to invent another terrible threat.’

This quote already tells a lot about what's going to follow, implying obviously that even Communism was just an invented evil. Well, the children and grandchildren of the millions of victims of that ideology will beg to disagree (just in case mr. Carroll has failed to notice that even most leftists have ceased to idealize the Communist paradise by now).

Further, mr. Carroll implies that the fear of early Christian Europeans that Jihad threatened Christendom as such wasn't justified - despite of what actually happened to the Middle East and North Africa, where the Christian culture was effectively destroyed. So, if Carroll is trying to tell us that the treat Islam poses to the West today is comparable to the threat of Communism of the 20th century and to the threat Islam posed to Christianity and Europe in times prior to the Crusades (that is, in his view, insignificant or non-existent), then he actually admits that the treat is really serious...

Posted by: rahel

at June 15, 2005 9:11 AM

Voletti,

not Lewis Carroll himself but rather, one of his characters: Humpty Dumpty. You know - "when I say a word, it means what I want it to mean"; etc.

Posted by: rahel

at June 15, 2005 9:14 AM

If America would just commit suicide the world would become Paradise.

Admittedly, an Islamic Paradise, where all other "Abrahamic" believers would live like ghetto Jews in Warsaw in 1942, while the "non-People of the Book" would be exterminated if they didn't convert to Islam. (Those evil Buddhists and malevolent Hindus and pernicious Bahais, not to mention agnostics, atheists, pagans and the [gasp!] theologically indifferent!)

The question to Mr. Carroll (who sings the carol of surrender) would be: will he accept the status of a dhimmi, pay the jizya (tax on infidels) and humbly realize that to criticize Islam would be a death sentence under their Restored Caliphate?

Mr. Spencer-

See if you can get him to answer this.

As for the Dutch reasoning in opposing the EU Constitution, immigration (out of control since the 1980's) was factor. Otherwise there would be no efforts going on, in-country, to control it now.

They wanted cheap labor, they got an expensive lesson.

If the Dutch wish to remain free, they need to encourage the theocratically despotic infil-traitors to return to their home countries and wage their religious warfare there.

I would like to nominate James Carroll for the

DHIMMI-WIT OF THE YEAR award.

(But there's so much competition...!)

Posted by: BigSleep

at June 15, 2005 10:00 AM

Robert wrote ...“a defensive fending off of assault from ‘the West’ ...

This has always bugged me, this premise that Western culture is invading Islam. What a crock. It's what the people choose, they choose Western 'things' because they like them, no one is being forced to watch TV, use a cellphone, eat at KFC... but Islam has a problem with that.

The Islamists want to control thought, what you do, what you say, what you eat, what you wear, where you go, who you associate with. Gee, that sounds kinda like...communism, North Korea, any controlling cult with Islam being the perfect example.

Posted by: reset

at June 15, 2005 11:00 AM

Carrolls another "way over there on the left", blame America for all of the worlds woes, liberal type.
But of course America didn't start anything, it was those darn Crusaders. But a Crusader never changes it's spots, so now we have modern Crusaders. The old timers used swords and spears, the modern gang use guns, bombs, and tanks. Reincarnated Knights Templars (now called Bonesmen), have now invaded Iraq, and the rest of the area is next. You just cant keep a good Crusader down. Disgruntled white guys are increasing the ranks of Crusadership daily.
Crusading is going on all over the place.
Next Crusaders called "Minutemen", are going to Crusade the Texas/Mexican US border, and in time Mexico itself.
Actually all that historical perspective is kind of academic. Islam has it's own type of Crusader, named Allah...He has lots of Crusader helpers under him, Muslimists, jihadists, taqqiyaists, kitmanists, apologists, every kind of "ists", and many "Isms" as well. He gave them a manual, to guide them to more effective Crusadership, The Quran. The quest for worldwide Islam, by hook or by crook, is a Crusade.
Mohammad was the first Islamic Crusader...his followers have been Crusading ever since.
Muslim Crusaders of all types, are what is in our faces now. If the Islamic Crusade prevails, get ready to pay that tax. You may not die, but you "will" pay the tax...

Posted by: duh_swami

at June 15, 2005 11:10 AM

The question to Mr. Carroll (who sings the carol of surrender) would be: will he accept the status of a dhimmi, pay the jizya (tax on infidels) and humbly realize that to criticize Islam would be a death sentence under their Restored Caliphate?
Posted by: BigSleep

GOOD ONE!

DHIMMI-WIT OF THE YEAR award.

(But there's so much competition...!) Posted by: BigSleep

If that weren't so true - it would be hilarious

The Islamists want to control thought, what you do, what you say, what you eat, what you wear, where you go, who you associate with. Posted by: reset

Why do you think SOOOO many have fled to the west? and yet - they demand the same governments they flee from be set up? again?

And the 'DHIMMI-WITS' play the violin for them - expertly. We can't send them back - because their lives will be in jeapordy - or they'll sew their mouths shut in protest {Can't have any of that now - can we.

If the Islamic Crusade prevails, get ready to pay that tax. You may not die, but you "will" pay the tax...
Posted by: duh_swami [I'd rather die]

But hey - at least allah won't be able to say "I made them rich"

His sons steal for a living [after they murder their victims]

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal

"the so-called Green Peril (green representing Islam) "

Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the [green] grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever.

"The ‘clash of civilizations’ seems closer at hand than ever.”

This is a war between the Bible and the Koran. The Koran attacked the New Testament - calling all of the apostles liars [the prophets of the Old Testaament also]

Ever since then - Islam has been attacking the rest of the world - because the Koran commands its followers to attack ALL who believe in the Son of God [athiests included]

009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what ''' the unbelievers ''' of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

037.151 Is it not that they say, from their own invention,

037.152 Allah has begotten children? but they are liars!

019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Testominy from one lone accuser - who wasn't even there to witness the event - and who calls ALL of the ones who were there - liars. Now what reputable court wouldn't through out the testimony of such an accuser?

One who preaches these to his followers - violating every 'humanitarian' law ever written:

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

This is a world that refuses to confront the Koran. And so - the bloodshed will continue.

"the Islamic threat “was defined as transcendent only with the later Crusades, when Latin Christian armies set out to rescue that ‘Holy Land’ and roll back Islamic conquests"

Here's one for the kings of this world: Since the Koran DOES mention the name Israel - and NOT the name Palestine - why not settle the score with fairness - once and for all? Leave the land with the name Israel.

SEE} Islam can't have a name like Israel around. Muhammad doesn't measure up to "The Holy One of Israel" [it keeps him secondary]

"If there weren’t so many people in government who believe as he does, he would be beneath notice. In Holland and France there are significant numbers that seem to know better, but the elites are going to take a long time to catch up. "

If you support a murderer - then you are a murderer:

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. [Treason - in all non-Muslim nations]

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. [Throughout the earth} 004.101 {dispelling the GREAT LIE that those commands are ONLY for Muslim lands]

It is a sin for Muslims to be peaceful with non-Muslims:

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors {authorities]: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. [Discrimination?]

004.095 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. But those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.044 Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their 'duty'.

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

And there you have - the SOLE Trouble-Maker - of so much horrid violence.

Ain't NO power - like the Truth

It EVEN shames the 'Humnitarian' kings

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 1:27 PM

Obfuscation of the obvious is at play here using taqiyya and kitman tactics.

The Global Jihad began when Mohammed decided upon the characteristics of Islam more than 1350 years ago and is mandated in the Koran. The Global Jihad is never ending and will continue until Muslims decided that Jihad is not a part of Islam. Of course Islam can not exist without Jihad, thus a VICIOUS circle.

Posted by: epg

at June 15, 2005 1:49 PM

"Having (unlike Spencer, it would appear) actually looked at the statistics, I can happily confirm the claim that the Netherlands is being besieged by Muslims is complete made-up nonsense.

--- from a posting above

This is so completely the reverse of everthing I have read, including the statements made in the Italian press by Geert Wilders, who was one of the most prominent of those political figures urging a no vote, who insisted that among the major considerations was that of "keeping Turkey out" which, of course, is a kind of substitute for saying "we have a Muslim problem and some of us have tentative solutions and others are still wondering." Furthermore, when one of the most prominent of Dutch students of Islam, Professor Jansen, publicly endorses the views of Bat Ye'or, when every report you read from Amsterdam and still more, Rotterdam (now 50% Muslim) tells you of the fears of the Dutch (start with Bruce Bawer, a few years ago in Partisn Review, with his Letter from Amsterdam) is full of worry abou the Muslims, when you read interview after interview with Dutch people worrying aloud (some of these have even been televised).

One can look at "statistics" (what statistics? whose statistics? population figures, fiddled with by the government, as they are in France? opinion polls, where some may not give their real opinions for fear of being thought "right-wing"? What? Let's have it all laid out, spelled out) and decide that there is no worry in Holland about the Muslim migrants who, 30 years ago, numbered about 15,000 and now number am million. One is free to believe anything.

Most of us should believe the Dutch bloggers, the Dutch newspapers, the reports from Holland by American and other foreign visitors, the remarks by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (now what explains her enormous popularity? She's no genius; she simply expresses, or represents, a new current) and Geert Wilders.

Here's the test: let's see just how well Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali do in the next election. For whatever other reasons may have been given, the main one that was given -- that we no longer control our own country, our own destiny, applies as well (and was, I think, highly revealing because the vote against the E.U. was necessarily a vote against the blatantly anti-American, anti-Israel, and Eurabian policies of that same E.U. ) to the reasons why, aside fro the E.U. and its policies, many Dutch feel less and less "in control of their own destiny" -- which is to say, the Muslim populaton (not the "immigrant" population, but the Muslim population -- these need to be distinguished).

As for "no Netherlander" fessing up to worrying about Muslims to the inquirer, that has not been my experience. The minute I have begun to express doubts about Islam --- and the same thing happened with Italians and French people --it was if a dam had burst. My words seemed to give them the okay, the psychic permission to open up and reveal their own views -- and their own views were as described here, by Robert Spencer and others. There may be those who don't notice or don't care or think that everything in Holland with its Muslims is hunky-dory. I just haven't met them.

What does this mean? Of course the economic argument -- those fake bills for $180 euros that were passed out to remind Dutch voters of how much they gave, per capita, to the E.U. rather than received -- was important. But it is entirely possible that, when people have been brainwashed in the New Religion of Tolerance and Diversity that it will take some doing for their words to catch up with their thoughts, and their thoughts to catch up with their feelings, that something "is not right."

Almost everyone in Holland senses or feels, vis-a-vis the Muslim presence, that something "is not right." A lesser number of Dutch people have begun to ponder the question -- what might it be about Islam itselt that causes Muslim immigrants, but no other kind of immigrants (not the Chinese, not the Indians, not the Vietnamese, not the Latin Americans) cause such difficulties, from behavior in schools to street crime, to constant demands that Holland accommodate, in every way, what Muslims want. No other immigrant group has done this.

And still fewer are the number who, to date, will allow those "thoughts" free expression. But their number is growing. It only takes a Fallaci to make it happen, to make some kinds of inhibitions to be cast off.

Perhaps the poster knows people who have those inhibitions. Or perhaps they are so well-off that they are simply cushioned from reality (always a problem), the reality for which those of us who are not so cushioned will be the first to pay the piper -- but not the last. In the end Infidels, whatever their bank accounts, will all be affected.

Posted by: Hugh

at June 15, 2005 4:21 PM

"Having (unlike Spencer, it would appear) actually looked at the statistics, I can happily confirm the claim that the Netherlands is being besieged by Muslims is complete made-up nonsense.
Posted by: john b

Group's Members Arrested in Dutch Murder
http://palestinename.com/cells_spreading.htm

Holland Under Siege
http://palestinename.com/hollandundersiege.htm

More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales
http://palestinename.com/results.htm {Ready for this one? Reported by the New York Times

Popular Dutch lawmaker urges halt to non-Western immigrants, shutting down radical mosques
http://palestinename.com/dutchhaltimmigrants

Netherlands Mulling Anti-Terror Laws
http://palestinename.com/antiterrorlaws.htm

Dutch Lawmakers Bemoan Terror Threat
http://palestinename.com/islamunderestimated.htm

Netherlands opens first "deportation center" for immigrants
http://palestinename.com/netherlandsdeport.htm

The Death of the Dutch?
http://palestinename.com/dutchmess.htm

Two Failed Terrorism Trials Raise Worry in Europe
http://palestinename.com/liesdestroy.htm

Where have you been john b?

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 4:36 PM

Can't leave this one out

Right-wing politicians want to ban Islam
http://palestinename.com/norwegian.htm Norwegian News

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 4:37 PM

Lies & statistics. Kitman & Taqiyya statistics. Is there anything that you can't 'prove' with statistics?

Posted by: Terminator

at June 15, 2005 4:59 PM

C'mon, Hugh. Surely you are aware that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

4.5% may seem like an insignificant number, but if the this particular wave of immigrants comes from a particular region (as they often do) that as a whole, integrates into their new society very poorly, and exhibits some seriously anti-social behaviour, it's a very, very significant number.

I remember when the Canadian public was outraged by the late former Prime Minister, Pierre Trudeau for suggesting that an unemployment rate of 5% was nothing to be alarmed about. Numbers need context.

Posted by: waterdragon52

at June 15, 2005 5:09 PM

WELL WHO SAYS THE MULSUMS IN YOUR COUNTRY WILL LET LIVE AND LET LIVE??

THEY ARE ALREADY COMPLAINGING OF NAMES OF HIGH SCHOOLS LOOK AT DIMMI WATCH VERMONT JUST THOSE LITTLE CANGES NOW LEAD TO BIGGER THINGS JUST LOOK AT COUNTRIES WHO NOW HAVE SHRIA LAW ??

JUST A FEW YEARS AGO THE WEST WAS SAYING HOW MONDRON INDONESIA WAS??

AND REPORTS ARE NOW SAYING INDONESIA TO GO TO SHRIA LAW JUST TO GET ALONG NO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE FOUGHT EVEN THE LITTLE THING DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!

IF MULSUMS DON'T LIKE YOUR COUNTRIES LAWS I SAY DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT THEM ON THE WAY OUT!!!

I AM SICK OF PEOPLE BRING UP THE CURSADES AS IF CHRISTIANS ARE CUTTING PEOPLES HEADS OFF TODAY!!!

THIS IS OLD NEWS AND THE MOVIE WAS A FLOP!!!

ONLY 29% SHOWED UP TO VOTE IN ITALY WATCH HOW THEY SPIN THAT???

June 15, 2005
http://www.foehammer.net/2005/06/thoughts.html

VIDEO IN NYC OF CRAZY MULSUMS!!!

Wow the Iraqis and the Aussis Free Aussis man!!!!

Why did some Chinese from a city go out to a country farm town and kill all the Farmers???

Senate votes to use Farm goods for Fule!!! 70 to 26 who were the 26 who don’t want to get away from forgien sorces of oil???

Looks like the Iraqis are going to have to search each person who goes into the chow hall??
THE IRAQI PEOPLE DO WANT FREEDOM!! And Are fighting for it!!!

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/14/220421.shtml
Rumsfeld, Pace Speak About Future in Iraq
NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, June 15, 2005
WASHINGTON – The coalition and Iraqi security forces are facing a "thinking enemy," and that enemy has changed its tactics in response to what the coalition has done, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said here today.
YOU GOTTA LOVE THESE GUYS!!!
Rumsfeld said.
In the past, dictators held the Iraqi people together via fear and repression. Now they are looking for "a piece of paper" -- a constitution -- to do so.
"Instead of a vicious dictatorship, instead of repression, instead of a police state, instead of mass graves filled with people -- bodies, tens of thousands of bodies -- there's going to be a piece of paper that those people are going to have to put their faith in," he said. "That is an enormous thing. And they're going to be debating that and tugging on it and 'to-ing and fro-ing,' and they're going to, in my view, come up with one."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/14/90333.shtml

THIS IS WHERE I AND HUGH PART I BELIEVE TO RUN AWAY FROM A BULLY ONLY MAKES HIM STRONGER AND WILL GIVE HIM MORE FOLLOWERS!!!

OUR GRANDPARNETS DIDN’T RUN AWAY IN WW2 AND THEY WON THAT WAR OUR NEXT GENERATION RAN AWAY FRON VETIANAM AND WE LOST THAT WAR!!!

SO ARE WE WINNERS OR COWARDS WHO RUN AWAY RUN BY HIPPIES???

THE DEMOCRATS [who were aginst this in the 1st place] WANT TO RUN AWAY LIKE THE COWARDS THEY ARE!!
JUST LOOK AT HOW THEY WERE SO UPSET ABOUT HAVING TO SHARE DOORS WHEN THE ALARM RANG???

NO I PART WITH HUGH ON RUNNING AWAY THE REASON THIS HAS GROWN SO BIG IS BECAUSE WE RAN AWAY FROM IRAN AND BAYROOT!! LOOK AT LIYBIA TODAY WE DIDN’T RUN AWAY FROM THAT FIGHT!!

FIGHTING IS NOT ALWAYS EASY OR CLEAN THAT IS WHY THEY CALL IT FIGHTING!!!

NOW YOU CAN WORRY ABOUT WHAT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST THINK BUT THAT IS PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND WILL GET YOUR BUTT SHOT OFF!!
REMEMBER THEY BROUGHT THIS FIGHT TO OUR LAND REMEMBER 9/11/2001 AND HOW YOU FELT THAT DAY!!!

BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN WE DO MORE FOR THE POOR OF THE WORLD THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY WE ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND WE ARE NOT JUST SITTING AND LETTING EVIL HAPPEN!!!

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/14/151513.shtml

In the memo, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, Wilson said he "had brief discussions with (Kofi Annan) and his entourage" about Cotecna's effort to win the contract.
Cotecna "could count on their support," Wilson wrote.
The memo, dated Dec. 4, 1998, was written a week before the company won the U.N. contract.
Eckhard said the views attributed to Annan in Wilson's memo "could not have come from the secretary-general because he had no knowledge that Cotecna was a contender for that contract."
He said the United Nations had turned over the records of the Paris trip to Volcker.
In an interim report in March, Volcker's committee accused Cotecna and Kojo Annan of trying to conceal their relationship after the firm was awarded the contract.
It said Kofi Annan didn't properly investigate possible conflicts of interest surrounding the contract, but cleared him of trying to influence the awarding of Cotecna's contract or violating U.N. rules.

WE HAVE A BIG FIGHT AND THE ODS SEAM OVERWELMING BUT LOOK AT WW2 OUR GRANDPARENTS DIDN’T RUN AND YES THEY WON THIS IS NOT THE 60S AND JUST AN ISLAND BUT THE WHOLE WORLD!!!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159556,00.html
Bush Helps Republicans Raise $23 Million
Tuesday, June 14, 2005

WASHINGTON — President Bush stepped up his efforts to boost Republicans' political fortunes by headlining two big-money fundraisers Tuesday, criticizing Democrats during both stops.
At an evening congressional gala in Washington, Bush drew applause by calling for an overhaul of the tax code, a national energy bill (search) and permanent tax relief, among other things. He accused Democrats of trying to block all of them.
"They stand for nothing except obstruction, and this is not leadership," Bush said. "It is the philosophy of the stop sign, the agenda of the road block, and the country and our children deserve better."
WELL I COULDN’T GO BUT WILL GET MY PLATE SOON!!!
Think the un=lon=al Think oil for food think iran and north korea then think why are the democrats stopping us having some one in the UN with BALLS???

Look at how these guys are just sore losers!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4093472.stm
: Tuesday, 14 June, 2005,
Blair urges constitution 'pause'
It is clearer than ever the process of ratifying the EU constitution must be put on hold for months in a "pause for reflection", Tony Blair has said

The UK prime minister spoke after his first face-to-face talks with France's President Jacques Chirac since French voters rejected the constitution.
THE DEMOCRATS SAID WE SHOULD LOOK TO EUROPE WELL IF WE DID IT WOULD NOT BE THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA???

NO THE DEMOCRATS AND RINOS HAVE NO BALLS!!!

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/13/195016.shtml
What's Going on at Los Alamos?
Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, June 14, 2005
[Editor's note: This is the first in a two-part series on the nation's nuclear weapons laboratory. Part two: "Troubles at Los Alamos Mask Record of Achievement."]

A GOOD READ!!!

But notable accomplishments aside, the lab's track record under UC management has been, to say the least, spotty.
• It was all the way back in 1945 that Klaus Fuchs, a German-born physicist involved in the Manhattan Project, gave the then Soviet Union the main elements of the design of the atomic bomb. Admitting the espionage, Fuchs was sentenced to 14 years in prison.
• The lab was the epicenter of a 1999 espionage controversy involving lab scientist Wen Ho Lee. Never charged with espionage, Lee was fired for security violations. He eventually pleaded guilty to a felony count of mishandling classified information and admitted copying classified files. Lee always maintained that he disposed of the purloined files on site, but they have never been found.
• One year later, two computer hard drives containing nuclear secrets disappeared from a guarded vault at Los Alamos. Mysteriously, the drives turned up behind a copy machine, but the underlying mystery has yet to be solved.

YES A GOOD READ!!!

REMEMBER GETMO WAS AFTER 9/11/2001!!!

THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST ARE KILLING THE IRAQI PEOPLE WHAT IS THEIR BEEF WITH THEM THEY AFTER ALL ARE ALSO MULSUMS??

NO DEMOCRATS AND RINOS STOP AIDING THE ENEMIES OF THE USA!!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT GIVE THE WORLD COURAGE TO STAND AND FIGHT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

Posted by: Catherine

at June 15, 2005 5:30 PM

My comment has just one purpose: to clear the misunderstanding of the Holy Quran, and nothing else. Quoting Robert we have:
===
I doubt if Carroll … knows that Qur’anic verses such as 9:5 and 9:29 … have become the basis for an elaborate legal superstructure mandating warfare …
===
For the benefit all, let me quote Verses 9:1 to 9:29 first. These are quoted from the translation approved by the International Fiqh Academy at Makkah. A copy of this translation could be got free of charge from http://www.freequran.org/
===
1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances –
2. go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage – that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If, then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the Word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the Sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
9. The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His Way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity – they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith – fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
15. and still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
16. Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors, except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well – acquainted with all that ye do.
17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: in Fire shall they dwell.
18. The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.
19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah: and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, and of His good pleasure, and of Gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:
22. they will dwell therein forever. Verily in Allah’s presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).
23. O ye who believe! Take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any do so, they do wrong.
24. Say: If it be your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline; or the dwellings in which ye delight – are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause – then wait until Allah brings about His Decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious.
25. Assuredly Allah did help you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunayn: behold! Your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.
26. But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers: thus doth He reward those without Faith.
27. Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft – Forgiving, Most Merciful.
28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All – Knowing, All – Wise.
29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
===
The background to the above verses is given in the translation as below:
===
Chronologically, verses 1 – 29 were a notable declaration of state policy promulgated about the month of Shawwal, A. H. 9, and read out by ‘Ali at the Pilgrimage two months later in order to give the policy the widest publicity possible. …
===

This policy was promulgated after the Tabuk expedition by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Tabuk expedition was the last one by which all opposition to Islam was overcome. Thus, the above 29 verses are the policy of the victor to the vanquished.

Do we have a parallel? Yes, the “Act of Surrender” executed by the Germans and the Japanese at the end of World War II. Quoting from
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/german_surrender_document/images/berlin-01.jpg

http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/german_surrender_document/images/berlin-02.jpg
we have:
===
ACT OF MILITARY SURRENDER

… hereby surrender unconditionally … all forces on land, at sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.

… to cease active operations at 2301 hours Central European time on 8th May 1945, … to disarm completely, handing over their weapons and equipments to the local allied commanders … No ship, vessel, or aircraft is to be scuttled, or any damage done to their hull, machinery or equipment and also machines of all kinds, armament, apparatus, and all the technical means of prosecution of war in general.

In the event of the German High Command or any of their forces under their control failing to act in accordance with this Act of Surrender, the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and the Supreme High Command of the Red Army will take such punitive measures or other action as they deem appropriate.
===

What is the “Act of Surrender” read out by ‘Ali? The very first statement is that the defeated enemies (Pagans) are free to roam around as they please for four months. Only after the four months of grace is over, those enemies who persist in their enmity would be attacked. Please read 9:4 which clearly says that the treaties with non-enemies are to be respected. So, 9:5 does not recommend the attack on non-Muslims; it recommends the continuation of the war on those who persist with the enmity; that is, the war-mongers are to be subdued. 9:29 refers to the People of the Book who used to advise the Pagans instigating them to war; so they also are to be subdued and humbled, so that peace has a chance to develop among the different communities.

May I request that we do not criticize the Holy Books (Holy Torah, Holy Bible, Holy Quran, and other religious texts) by quoting them out of context? Allah knows best.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 15, 2005 5:47 PM

Tabuk expedition was the last one by which all opposition to Islam was overcome

Mohideen Ibramsha

And how does that explanation fit with these?...

004.101 When ye travel through the earth there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

004.100 He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious.

So, 9:5 does not recommend the attack on non-Muslims; it recommends the continuation of the war on those who persist with the enmity; that is, the war-mongers are to be subdued

Mohideen Ibramsha

How does that fit with these?

037.151 Is it not that they say, from their own invention,

037.152 Allah has begotten children? but they are liars!

019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Can't be a Christian without the Son of God

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

Where exactly in the Koran - Does it say "These commands ARE ONLY FOR MUHAMMAD's times?

Present them please - to that Muslims will stop believing - it is 'their duty' to slay non-Muslims.

The New Testament is a better way. It demands that ALL humans be peaceful with each other. It condemns ALL who resort to violence {{{NO IFs -ANDs - OR BUTs !!!

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 6:37 PM

Tabuk expedition was the last one by which all opposition to Islam was overcome.

Mohideen Ibramsha

How does that explanation fit with these?

004.101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

004.100 He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth Many a refuge, wide and spacious.

Where in the Koran - does it say "These commands are ONLY for the times of Muhammad" ???

Present proof of that - from the Koran - understanding - that the Koran has far more authority than any Muslim does.

So, 9:5 does not recommend the attack on non-Muslims; it recommends the continuation of the war on those who persist with the enmity; that is, the war-mongers are to be subdued.

Mohideen Ibramsha

hmmmm - what about these...

009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

002.193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. {throughout the earth? OR just in the Tabuk expedition? [What does 'allah' say?]

004.104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships.

037.151 Is it not that they say, from their own invention,

037.152 Allah has begotten children? but they are liars!

019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Can't be a Christ-ian - without the Son of God - The Christ.

So - where does that leave all who believe in the Son of God under the Islamic law?

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

So - the Jews and Christians are unjust - according to the Koran. [Discrimination?]

008.065 O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.038 O ye who believe! 009.038 O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

What is the punishment for Muslims who say different than 'allah' does?

Challenge to you Mohideen Ibramsha:

Put together New Testament Scriptures - in any order you like - and see if they in any way tell humans to be violent with each other.

Go ahead - I dare ya! Try it!

Again:

What is the punishment for Muslims who say different than 'allah' does?

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 6:54 PM

any way food for thought

Posted by: SPQR

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light [Life] in them.

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 7:11 PM

Only Jesus is Good.

Smile

Posted by: Beth

at June 15, 2005 7:32 PM

Seams the House is to Vote once again on the Destruction of the USA Flage seams they passed it before but the SENATE VOTED IT DOWN BY 2

WHO ARE THOSE 2
SEND THEM THIS!!!

LOOP HOLE??

http://www.foehammer.net/2005/06/thoughts.html

VIDEO IN NYC OF CRAZY MULSUMS!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and ALL who Fight with her give them Strength, Wisdom, Sight, and Courage to stay the course to Destoy ALL Islamic Terrorist and ALL who Support them Amen

Posted by: Catherine

at June 15, 2005 7:40 PM

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at June 15, 2005 05:47 PM

MULSUM BLOWS HIMSELF UP IN CHOW HALL TO KILL OTHERS??

MULSUM IN THILAND BEHEADS A TEACHER BECAUSE HE WAS A NON MULSUM AND HERE ARE YOUR FRIENDS IN ACTION WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THIS??

http://www.foehammer.net/2005/06/thoughts.html

VIDEO IN NYC OF CRAZY MULSUMS!!!

TELL YOU STORY TO SOMBODY WHO CARES WE DON'T SEEN TO MANY HEADS CUT OFF BY MULSUMS IN THE NAME OF YOUR RELIGIONS??

GO SUCK ON SOME TOE JAM!!!

Posted by: Catherine

at June 15, 2005 7:47 PM

One day, some day when Mohammedans travel to the US (or other Western countries) They will be received by a police force who will tell them "you have the right to remain silent. If you use that right, we shall deport you right now.
Anything you say can and will be held against you..."

For now just daydreamin'...

But, who knows?

Posted by: Terminator

at June 15, 2005 8:23 PM

SPQR-

Mohammadism was fascinating to many Americans, in the time of the Barbary Pirates, when the first English translations of the Koran were being read in the U.S.

It is not only possible, but likely, that 'prophet' John Smith may have been inspired by the "new prophet" Mohammad (essentially the first successful Protestant) to become a "latter day saint" himself. And, instead of "Jibreel", he decided that an angel named "Moroni" (only the "c" on the end is missing) would give him "new revelations".

Comparing the Koran and the Book of Mormon is intriguing, but the former is more one man's megalomania and revenge fantasies, while the latter, even though the earliest Mormons also had their own "militias", is more just weird and repetitive, with some "modern" (circa 1830) supernatural ideas leavening its pseudo-Biblical language and unoriginal concepts.

Both 'faiths' have the same evengelical arrogance, the same puritannical streak, and the same urge for polygamy -although the LDS leadership have tried to hide the last detail since the statehood requirements for Utah.

But, at least until their numbers increase, the Mormons do their proselytizing now through doorknocking and pamphleteering, instead of head-chopping and carbombing.

We must be thankful for small favors.

(Mark Twain wrote tellingly about the 'Mormon Massacre' you bring up -the only reason this act was found out is because the Moromons didn't murderer all of the children in a wagon train they ambushed.)

Posted by: BigSleep

at June 16, 2005 1:33 AM

Only Jesus is good.
Smile
Beth

Not only Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, all of them starting with the first person Prophet Adam, peace be upon him, including the Seal of the Prophets, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, are good.
Smile forever.

As regards other issues, in due course, God willing, I hope to respond.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 16, 2005 4:18 AM

I happen to know that the U.S. Federal Government and our Intelligence Community have been aware of and monitoring the Muslim threat since the 50's. So, the very idea that we have artificially created any new threat to replace Communism is patently absurd.

Posted by: Foehammer

at June 16, 2005 6:51 AM

Robert said:
===
Notice how 9/11 doesn't enter into this calculus. For Carroll it is as if the war in Iraq and ‘instances of Koran-denigration’ were just acts of unprovoked aggression by the West.
===

Please see http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050613-102755-6408r.htm in which we find:
===
A former Bush team member during his first administration is now voicing serious doubts about the collapse of the World Trade Center on 9-11. Former chief economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term Morgan Reynolds comments that the official story about the collapse of the WTC is "bogus" and that it is more likely that a controlled demolition destroyed the Twin Towers and adjacent Building No. 7. Reynolds, who also served as director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis in Dallas and is now professor emeritus at Texas A&M University said, "If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an 'inside job' and a government attack on America would be compelling." Reynolds commented from his Texas A&M office, "It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely to be correct either. The government's collapse theory is highly vulnerable on its own terms. Only professional demolition appears to account for the full range of facts associated with the collapse of the three buildings."
===

After all, Carroll is right: the war against the Taliban and the war on Iraq are indeed unprovoked attack on Muslims by the US and her allies.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 16, 2005 4:15 PM

Here we offer proof that Islam is indeed a religion of peace. Yes there are verses related to war; they are to educate the Muslims to conduct themselves during periods of oppression. Those verses are not to be miscontrued to mean that a Muslim has to fight each and every non-Muslim.

Verse 4:69 reads:
===
All who obey Allah and the Messenger are in the Company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah - of the Prophets (who teach), the Sincere (lovers of Truth), the Witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! What a beautiful Fellowship.
===

So Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, had the main responsibility of teaching; yes he did fight when the enemies attempted to destroy his community. A Muslim is expected to fight as below also, as given in verse 4:75.
===
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? - men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Thee one who will protect; and raise for us from Thee one who will help!"
===

What should a Muslim do when a non-Muslim persists with his / her faith even after learning about Islam? Verse 4:115 gives the answer.
===
If anyone contends with the Messenger even after Guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that becoming to men of Faith, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell - what an evil refuge!
===

Hell and Heaven are in the Hereafter and not in this life. So, Muslims have no permission to fight non-Muslims just because they choose to remain non-Muslims. If anyone claims that there is the duty to spread Islam by force, such a person is acting against verse 4:115.

Hence, Islam is indeed a religion of peace.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 16, 2005 7:47 PM

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

He is the Mediator - between men and God.

1Ti 2:5 For there is]one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Peace has already been bestowed upon Him.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace [with God] through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Jesus is not the Son of God because God had a 'wife' or 'concubine'

He but saith - to it - "Be" - and it is!

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mar 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

King David is also just one of the many witnesses of the Old Testament:

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

No where else is it written that any were taken up. We are not aloud to say the apostles are damned - not are we aloud to say - they are saved:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? that is, to bring Christ down from above:

Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.

Only God is aloud to make that decision.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels [NOT HUMANS] shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.

We are commanded to be PEACEFUL to ALL things! even our enemies - Because God is the One and Only Judge of ALL things.

Jesus is the Mediator because we are not even worthy to go before Him.

Muhammad has told GREAT abominable lies!

Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

We are begotten by the Word of God - not in the way that Muhammad incinuates.

That does not make partners for God.

God loves those who believe Him.

God is Love. Peace. Mercy - and everything that is Good.

That is why He commands:

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

If everyone were keeping those laws - there would be Peace.

Muhammad preaches war - and that is a fact.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

There is only One Son of God and one son of perdition.

Life or Death - Eternal: Choose

Posted by: Beth

at June 17, 2005 10:26 AM

Mohideen Ibramsha? In a court of law - if a lone accuser who wasn't even present concerning the issue at hand makes claims that differ from the many who are actual eye witnesses - whose testimonies all agree -

what should the judge do with the testimony of the lone accuser?

Eternal Life is at stake.

You be the judge for your own soul.

Posted by: Beth

at June 17, 2005 10:31 AM

The Works of Christ - The Son of God:

Mat 5:44 I [Jesus] say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. [Because God is the Judge in the end - of each individual]

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good.

Rom 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The works of Muhammad:

009.005 fight and slay the Pagans ''''wherever'''' ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.

033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.

009.123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight [jihad], smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

005.033 THE PUNISHMENT of those who '''wage war''' against Allah and His Messenger IS: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet.

See the difference? between the two?

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

We are commanded to love our enemy - the son of perdition - made up of many members - by treating him as we ourselves want to be treated - and above all - Speaking the Truth to him - because Eternal Life is at stake.

What is this life compare t eternal Life?

What does a man profit himself is he should gain the whole world - only to lose his own soul in the end?

To take a life that you did not give - is theft in the highest form.

It is also called Murder.

Your prophet teaches you to travel through out the earth 'in allah's cause' and you are to persue the 'enemy' relentlessly.

Only Satan behaves that way.

Only Satan would force people to bow to him.

009.029 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. {That is wicked!

Posted by: Beth

at June 17, 2005 10:43 AM

"until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued"

At least the True Christians will be able to say "allah did not make us rich - but his riches - he took from us"

Posted by: Beth

at June 17, 2005 11:02 AM

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Posted by: Beth

4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them –

When the death as is referred to in 4:159? Did it take place about 2,000 years back? If so, the People of the Book [Jews] must have believed in Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them and should have adopted the Holy Bible instead of the Holy Torah. The death of Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them is yet to take place.

4:157 that they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah” – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not –
4:158 nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise –
4: 159 and there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them –

Sahih Muslim is a collection of Traditions from Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Tradition numbered 1370 describes the death of Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. We quote that Tradition below:
===
Narrated An-Nawwas ibn Sam'an
Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) mentioned of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him as insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant (and we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) on our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) you mentioned the Dajjal this morning (sometimes describing him) as insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think he was present in some (nearly) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. So he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among you, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not among you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah will take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (the Dajjal) will be a young man with twisted, cropped hair, and a blind eye. I compare him with AbdulUzza ibn Qatan. He who among you will survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Surah al-Kahf (xviii). He will appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! Adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), how long will he stay on Earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days. We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) will one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of the day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of the time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's apostle (peace be upon him) how quickly will he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He will come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion); they will affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He will then give a command to the sky: there will be rainfall upon the Earth and it will grow crops. Then in the evening, their pasturing animals will come to them with their humps very high, their udders full of milk and their flanks distended. He will then come to another people and invite them. But they will reject him so he will go away from them; they will have a drought and nothing will be left with them in the form of wealth. He will then walk through the desert and say to it: Bring forth your treasures. The treasures will come out and gather before him like a swarm of bees. He will then call someone in the flush of youth, strike him with the sword, cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at the distance which is generally between the archer and his target. He will then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness). It will at this very time that Allah will send Christ, son of Mary. He will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus, wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, there will fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells the odour of his body will die and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see. He will then search for him (Dajjal) until he catches hold of him at the gate of Ludd and kills him. Then a people whom Allah had protected will come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. It will be under such conditions that Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah will send Gog and Magog and they will swarm down from every slope. The first of them will pass the lake of Tiberias and drink out of it. And when the last of them passes, he will say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions will then be besieged here (at Tur, and they will be so hard pressed) that the head of the ox will be dearer to them than one hundred dinars. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions will supplicate Allah, Who will send to them insects (which will attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish as one single person. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions, then come down to Earth and they will not find on Earth as much space as a single span that is not filled with putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions will then beseech Allah who will send birds whose necks would be like those of Bactrian camels and they will carry them away and throw them where Allah wills. Then Allah will send rain which no house of mud-bricks or (tent of) camel-hair will keep out and it will wash the Earth until it resembles a mirror. Then the Earth will be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there will grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of people will be able to eat it and seek shelter under its skin, a dairy cow will give so much milk that a whole party will be able to drink it. The milking camel will give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe will be able to drink from it, and the milking-sheep will give so much milk that the whole family will be able to drink from it. At that time Allah will send a pleasant wind which will soothe (people) even under their armpits. He will take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked will survive who will commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.
===

It is the Muslim belief that between Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, the relationship is as follows:
1. Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, is sent to the children of Israel who disobey him. Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, is lifted up to the Heaven by God Almighty alive, and lives in Heaven.
2. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, the Seal of the Prophets, peace be upon them, is sent to establish the religion for all, not just the children of Israel. He lives and dies.
3. Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, returns to earth to complete the rest of his earthly life, when all those who survive believe in him. Then, he dies, resurrected and the Day of Judgement begins.
Allah knows best.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 18, 2005 5:52 AM

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Posted by: Beth

4:159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgement he will be a witness against them –

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 18, 2005 5:53 AM

The death of Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them is yet to take place.

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Jesus was taken up:

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

No where - is it written - that anyone else died - and was taken up and placed at the Right hand of God.

Only Jesus - of which there are several eye witnesses who testified of the things they saw and heard - confirming the many prophecies in the Old Testament.

Muhammad is only lone accuser - who wasn't even there - and calls all of these witnesses - liars

Deu 32:1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of My mouth.

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet [Jesus] from among their brethren, like unto thee, [Moses] and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The Koran forgot to mention Palestine.

The Lord of the Bible did not.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses [before GOD], or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Peace was ALREADY bestowed upon Jesus.

Your Koran mentions the name Israel - BUT not the name Palestine:

Mar 13:14 When ye shall see the abomination of desolation {without life - "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - Palestine denies the Son] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not

The name Israel came from God - not men} Gen 35:10

You either hear the POWER in such a Great Prophecy Mohideen? or you don't.

When it comes to Eternal Life - a Good Judge will gather all facts possible - and will ponder greatly - before making any final decision.

One lone accuser? or many witnesses who knew about Palestine for end times.

Life or death - Eternal: Choose

Posted by: Beth

at June 19, 2005 3:20 PM

Muhammad is only lone accuser - who wasn't even there - and calls all of these witnesses – liars
Beth

If only the numbers matter, there could be no research and development, as every new result falsifies all the preceding results. The basic dispute is whether we accept Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, as Seal of the Prophets, peace be upon them, or not. If we accept him as Seal, his statements supersede the statements of all the others before him. The following case demonstrates the futility of numbers in matters of Truth and falsity.

Tradition numbered 185 in Volume 5 of Sahih Al-Bukhari is reproduced below:
===
Narrated Ibn Abbas
The first event of Qasama in the pre-Islamic period of ignorance was practiced by us (i.e.
Banu Hashim). A man from Banu Hashim was employed by a Quraishi man from another branch-family. The (Hashimi) laborer set out with the Quraishi driving his camels. There passed by him another man from Banu Hashim. The leather rope of the latter's bag had broken so he said to the laborer, "Will you help me by giving me a rope in order to tie the handle of my bag lest the camels should run away from me?" The laborer gave him a rope and the latter tied his bag with it. When the caravan halted, all the camels' legs were tied with their fetters except one camel. The employer asked the laborer, "Why, from among all the camels has this camel not been fettered?" He replied, "There is no fetter for it." The Quraishi asked, "Where is its fetter?" and hit the laborer with a stick that caused his death (later on). Just before his death a man from Yemen passed by him. The laborer asked (him), "Will you go for the pilgrimage?" He replied, "I do not think I will attend it, but perhaps I will attend it." The (Hashimi) laborer said, "Will you please convey a message for me once in your life?" The other man said, "Yes." The laborer wrote: -When you attend the pilgrimage, call the family of Quraish, and if they respond to you, call the family of Banu Hashim, and if they respond to you, ask about Abu Talib and tell him that so-and-so has killed me for a fetter." Then the laborer expired. When the employer reached (Mecca), Abu Talib visited him and asked, "What has happened to our companion?" He said, "He became ill and I looked after him nicely (but he died) and I buried him." Then Abu Talib said, "The deceased deserved this from you." After some time, the messenger whom the laborer has asked to convey the message, reached during the pilgrimage season. He called, "O the family of Quraish!" The people replied, "This is Quraish." Then he called, "O the family of Banu Hashim!" Again the people replied, "This is Banu Hashim." He asked, "Who is Abu Talib?" The people replied, "This is Abu Talib." He said, "'So-and-so has asked me to convey a message to you that so-and-so has killed him for a fetter (of a camel)." Then Abu Talib went to the (Quraishi) killer and said to him, "Choose one of three alternatives: (i) If you wish, give us one-hundred camels because you have murdered our companion, (ii) or if you wish, fifty of your men should take an oath that you have not murdered our companion, and if you do not accept this, (iii) we will kill you in Qisas." The killer went to his people and they said, "We will take an oath." Then a woman from Banu Hashim who was married to one of them (i.e.the Quraishis) and had given birth to a child from him, came to Abu Talib and said, "O Abu Talib! I wish that my son from among the fifty men, should be excused from this oath, and that he should not take the oath where the oath-taking is carried on." Abu Talib excused him. Then another man from them came (to Abu Talib) and said, "O Abu Talib! You want fifty persons to take an oath instead of giving a hundred camels, and that means each man has to give two camels (in case he does not take an oath). So there are two camels I would like you to accept from me and excuse me from taking an oath where the oaths are taken. Abu Talib accepted them from him. Then 48 men came and took the oath. Ibn 'Abbas further said: By Him in Whose Hand my life is, before the end of that year, none of those 48 persons remained alive.
===

On the Day of Judgment, it is our expectation that the Muslims who believe Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, was not crucified would be victorious, notwithstanding the so called numerous eye witnesses.

No where - is it written - that anyone else died - and was taken up and placed at the Right hand of God.
Beth

From the Internet we find that Saddam had provided better health care than the current authorities. After the hostilities are over – assuming that the US wins – would the media ever describe Saddam as one who provided better health care? No. It would be forgotten and submerged in a flood of negative reporting on Saddam.

The victor is always virtuous and the loser is always a villain. So was it with respect to the Romans and the twelve disciples of Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. In our opinion, the best disciple – Judas – sacrificed himself on the cross impersonating Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. However, their strength, the miracle making Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, was taken to Heaven by God Almighty and the disciples were no match for the power of the Romans. So, the Romans substituted the solar calendar in place of the lunar calendar followed by Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. Could the Romans let the actual heroism of Judas be recorded and allow the future generations to laugh at them how they went to crucify Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them but ended up crucifying Judas who was made to look like Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them at the time of arrest? No. So, the Romans hanged Judas after the ascension of Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, to Heaven and created spin – as the CIA does now – that Judas was a traitor.

If Judas has to simply point out Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, to the Romans for a few silver coins, why should he go so near and embrace Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them? It is our claim that Judas embraced Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, simply to transfer the silver coins to him and to surrender himself to the Romans as Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. During the embrace, God Almighty made Judas to resemble Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them for some required time. After Judas had sacrificed his life on the cross, and his body was buried, the body within the shroud would have returned to its own shape as Judas. Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, who was not crucified, resurrects Judas and thus the leader and the twelve followers would have celebrated.

God Almighty as per His plan took Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, to Heaven and the disciples continued to preach the truth – which it was Judas who was crucified and resurrected. Well, it took very little time to overpower the disciples, hang Judas and make Judas a traitor. We consider the above interpretation as true in the light of 4:157 and 4:158 of the Holy Quran. In the following we look at some of the accepted statements in the literature and interpret them as they should be.

Let us consider the seven last words of Christ as described in http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/43/Seven_Last_Words_of_Christ.html They are:
1. Father, forgive them, they know not what they do. Lk. 23:34
2. This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise. Lk. 23:43
3. Woman, behold thy son. Jn. 19:26-7
4. My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mk. 15:34 (Mt. 27:46)
5. I thirst. Jn. 19:28
6. It is finished. Jn. 19:30
7. Into thine hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit. Lk. 23:46

Judas impersonated Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them and sacrificed himself on the cross. The first phrase is said by Judas while he is conscious of the fact that he is impersonating Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them. Tradition numbered 652 in Volume 4 of Sahih Al-Bukhari supports such a description of a Prophet, peace be upon him, as a son of God. Quoting the Tradition, we have:
===
Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "Both in this world and in the Hereafter, I am the nearest of all the people to Jesus, the son of Mary. The prophets are paternal brothers; their mothers are different, but their religion is one."
===

The second phrase is the statement by God indicating the onset of death, and is repeated by Judas. Judas by his act of sacrifice has become a martyr. Every martyr enters Heaven immediately as a “bird of Paradise,” in the company of God Almighty. Tradition numbered 873 of Sahih Muslim supports the above interpretation. Quoting the Tradition, we have:
===
Narrated Abdullah
It has been narrated on the authority of Masruq who said: We asked Abdullah about the Qur'anic verse: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord...." (iii.169). He said: We asked the meaning of the verse (from the Holy Prophet) who said: The souls of the martyrs live in the bodies of green birds who have their nests in chandeliers hung from the throne of the Almighty. They eat the fruits of Paradise wherever they like and then nestle in these chandeliers. Once their Lord cast a glance at them and said: Do ye want anything? They said: What more can we desire? We eat the fruit of Paradise wherever we like. Their Lord asked them the same question thrice. When they saw that they would continue to be asked and not left (without answering the question), they said: O Lord, we wish that Thou mayest return our souls to our bodies so that we may be slain in Thy cause once again. When He (Allah) saw that they had no need, they were left (to their joy in heaven).
===

The last five phrases are said by Judas as Judas. The third, “Woman, behold thy son,” is addressed to mother Mary, Allah be pleased with her, to convey that the one dying on the cross is not the Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, but someone else. What is there to behold in a dead body? So, the son referred was Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, who was not crucified.

The fourth, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” is uttered by Judas in response to the pain of death. God did say that Judas would be in Paradise that day; there should be no pain in Paradise; still, Judas felt the pain of death and responds on the occurrence of the pain of death.

The fifth, “I thirst,” is another sign of the onset of death. Tradition numbered 261 in volume 4 of Sahih Al-Bukhari supports this statement. The Tradition is:
===
Narrated Anas bin Malik
A group of eight men from the tribe of Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, th