Jihad Watch: Spencer: Death Threats and Tolerance

June 30, 2005

Spencer: Death Threats and Tolerance

Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer in FrontPage:

“May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over again….Amen.”
“I believe he’s already on the hit list, nothing new.”

“we make dua [i.e., we pray] Allah allows your blood to spill over our hands.”

These are threats I have received recently. Last week, when I spoke at the New York Tolerance Center about “The True Nature of the Jihad Threat,” I discovered that news of these threats have somehow found their way to the New York Police Department, which -- unbeknownst to me until I arrived at the venue -- dispatched its “Hercules Team” to ward off any who might have wanted to make those threats reality. The Team, a group of courteous and accomplished plainclothesmen, turned away one young man with a backpack at the door, after he refused to let them search his bag.

Against that somewhat ominous backdrop, I spoke about the violent intolerance of the Islamic jihad: its imperative to impose Sharia, with its institutionalized discrimination against non-Muslims and women, and its mandate to commit violent acts that is rooted in the Qur’an and Sunnah, supported by mainstream understandings of those texts, and elaborated by Islamic law. I tried to impress upon the crowd the threat that the jihad poses to central notions of human rights enshrined in the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights and derived from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Bravo for life’s little ironies: after this talk about the need to defend the West from this furious and fanatical form of intolerance, I was confronted by a young man and a young woman who were quite offended by my -- you guessed it -- intolerance. The Muslims who made it necessary for us to have our conversation under armed guard because of death threats did not offend them. My talk did. We had a brief discussion -- until the young man refused to shake my hand and I realized that no real exchange of ideas was going to be possible -- in which I found that their views reflected not just their personal opinions, but a large number of common prejudices and false assumptions about the nature of the present conflict, the meaning of tolerance itself, and more.

The young man, for example, insisted to me that my focus was wrong. He told me that even though he was a Jew, he believed that Israel was a worse violator of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights than the jihadists, and reiterated several times that America is the world’s greatest terrorist, not any jihadist. These are, of course, fashionable notions on the Left and some sectors of the Right, but that doesn’t make them true.
Israel a worse threat than the global jihad? What violence is Israel fomenting in Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Bosnia, and elsewhere around the globe? Where are Israelis spreading an ideology that demands that its adherents subvert the states in which they live and replace their societies with a radically different social model that denies equality of rights to women and certain religious groups? Where are Israelis teaching their children that the noblest thing they can do with their lives would be to strap bombs on themselves and blow themselves up in a large crowd of unsuspecting civilians?

I am sympathetic to the Palestinian Arab refugees, some of whom I know personally. But let us not forget that the refugee problem was not created by Israel, but by the Arab states surrounding Israel that started war against her, making the displacement of peoples necessary where it need not have been. Those states also refused to take in those refugees.

It is also true that the obstacle to peace today in the Middle East is not Israel, which has always been willing to come to a negotiated settlement, but the Palestinian Arabs’ attachment to the jihad ideology, which will admit of no peaceful coexistence or any lasting negotiated settlement, but only truces on the way to total victory: the destruction of Israel and reduction of the Jews remaining in the area to dhimmi status.

Israel remains today the only Western-style republic in the Middle East, with the possible and increasingly problematic exception of Turkey. I am in daily contact with Christians from the Middle East, who feel hemmed in on both sides. Most, continuing cultural habits ingrained by centuries of dhimmitude, identify with the Muslims and excoriate Israel. Others are aware of what Sharia means: were peace to come to the area, it is unquestionable that Christians would enjoy more rights and freedoms in Israel than they would in a Palestinian Sharia State (and the Sharia is already invoked in the constitution of the PA). Where in the Muslim world do religious minorities enjoy the rights they do in Israel? Yes, the wall has made life hard for Christians and others in Bethlehem and elsewhere. Blowing people up in buses and restaurants made life hard too. Jihadist brutality and intransigence made the wall necessary.

And America is the greatest terrorist? In this the young man echoed views better expressed by the likes of Osama and Abu Hamza, but let that pass. The fact nevertheless remains that even if the most lurid tales coming out of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are true, they are simply no comparison in terms of human rights violations to the day-to-day record of Saudi Arabia and Iran, the world’s most notable modern Sharia states. To ascribe jihad violence to a reaction to American imperialism is to ignore the jihad conquests that went on for centuries before there even was a United States.

Of course, I was not dealing with the clearest of thinkers. The young man insisted that my talk was about “True Islam,” and that I had said that all terrorists were Muslims, when in fact the talk was entitled “The True Nature of the Jihad Threat,” and I had said no such thing about terrorists (I actually said that there was no global terrorist network comprised of Jews or Christians acting on theological imperatives from the mainstream of their traditions.) But unfortunately, it would be too hasty to dismiss all this as the muddled views of two somewhat under-informed and overly propagandized young idealists: such views are held by millions in the United States today.

Even worse came from the young man’s companion, a Syrian Muslim young lady, wearing pants and no hijab. She complained that my talk did not reach out to moderate Muslims like her -- indeed, she said, it was full of “vitriol” and left the audience more intolerant than they were when they came in. Their view of my intolerance was reinforced, they said, when a New York Tolerance Center official, delighted with my talk (and finding in it no “vitriol”), told me they wanted to have me back next year to be part of a panel. The Tolerance Center official asked me to give them the names of my “dream panel” -- people I’d like to appear with. Off the top of my head, I named Bat Ye’or, Rafael Israeli, and Ibn Warraq. The couple was dismayed: no Muslims! And not only that, but all people identified with “The Right”! I tried to tell them I’d be happy to appear with Tashbih Sayyid, or, indeed, any other Muslim who cared to discuss these things with me, but by that time I was having trouble getting a word in.

However, I never did find out exactly what they found intolerant about my talk. Since I insisted -- as I always do -- that Muslims and non-Muslims must face the reality that jihadists are using the Qur’an and Sunnah to recruit and motivate terrorists, and that only when they face this problem will there be any chance for a viable solution, I can only think that that was their problem. Of course, many on both the Left and the Right consider it in the worst possible taste to suggest that today’s terrorism might have anything to do with Islam (despite the fact that this cuts the ground out from any genuine Muslim reformers, whom they profess to support). Couple that with a Saidist inability to see non-Westerners as anything but victims, and Westerners as anything but perpetrators, and you have a potent brew that clouds men’s minds.

Is it intolerant to speak about the intolerance of others? Is it intolerant not to tolerate evil? Is it intolerant to set out facts that are uncomfortable and that most people don’t want to face? This Jewish/Muslim couple runs an organization that is designed to foster understanding between Jews and Muslims by bringing Jewish and Muslim children together to “celebrate” the “religious identities” of each. How do they keep Muslim children from celebrating the aspects of their religious identity that call Jews apes and pigs (Qur’an 2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166) and says they are under Allah’s curse (9:30) and must be fought (9:29)? I do not know. But I know that if they simply ignore such aspects of Islam, they will someday be unpleasantly surprised by a recrudescence of Qur’an-inspired anti-Semitism and violence.

Tolerance is a keystone of modern Western societies. But if it is an absolute value, it is a one-way-ticket to cultural suicide. As I spoke with my accusers that evening, the policemen all around us made it vividly clear where the real intolerance was coming from. Should the policemen have been more tolerant of the jihadists who issued the threats against me, and the young man who refused to let his backpack be searched? Should the British and Americans have tolerated Hitler? Should the Cold Warriors have tolerated the Gulag? “Toleration of the unacceptable,” as Bob Dylan once said, “leads to the last round-up.” I am trying to head that off. Intolerant? Sue me.

Posted by Robert at June 30, 2005 7:35 AM
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Comments
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)

Given the security necessary for one person to speak out about the global Islamic jihad, in New York City, I find it difficult to say we're winning the war on 'terror'. I'm sure we'll wake up when Islamic car nukes go off in our major cities.

Posted by: Beagle

at June 30, 2005 8:21 AM

I've preorderd Mr. Spencer's book, but Amazon lists a late September release date (mind you, I preordered the day Mr. Spencer announced the good news). Also, when I access Amazon, the old cover is still showing. I hope to be pleasantly surprised upon receiving my order enblazoned with the NEW and IMPROVED cover!
Thank you Mr Spencer.

Posted by: jhl952

at June 30, 2005 9:21 AM

How do they keep Muslim children from celebrating the aspects of their religious identity that call Jews apes and pigs (Qur’an 2:62-65; 5:59-60; 7:166) and says they are under Allah’s curse (9:30) and must be fought (9:29)?
Robert Spencer

Let us quote the Verses and consider their interpretation.

2:62 Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
2:63 And remember We took your Covenant and We raised above you the towering height of Mount (Sinai) (saying): “Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: perchance ye may fear Allah.”
2:64 But ye turned back thereafter; had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.
2:65 And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath; We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

5:59 Say: “O People of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?”
5:60 Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped Evil – these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even Path!”

7:166 When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

Only those among the Jews who transgressed all prohibitions were transformed. The correct interpretation of the Holy Quran is to be found in the explanation given by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. We quote Tradition numbered 1226 in Sahih Muslim below:
===
Narrated Abdullah
Umm Habibah, the wife of Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: O Allah, enable me to derive benefit from my husband, the Messenger of Allah (May peace be upon him), and from my father, AbuSufyan, and from my brother, Mu'awiyah. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: You have asked from Allah about durations of life already set, the length of days already allotted, and the sustenances, the share of which has been fixed. Allah will not do anything before its due time, nor will He delay anything beyond its due time. And if you were to ask Allah to provide you with refuge from the torment of the Hell-Fire, or from the torment of the grave, it would have good in store for you and better things for you also. He (the narrator) added: Mention was made before him of monkeys, and Mis'ar (one of the narrators) said: I think that (the narrator) also (mentioned) swine which had suffered metamorphosis. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily, Allah did not cause the race of those which suffered metamorphosis to grow, or they were not survived by young ones. Monkeys and swine have been in existence even before (the metamorphosis of the human beings).
===

Islam does not call Jews apes and pigs. It only says the worst among them, when they incurred the wrath of God Almighty, were made to suffer metamorphosis, and they had no descendants. So, if any calls the current Jews as descendants of apes and swine, that person speaks a lie. Islam is indeed a religion of peace; some twist it to make it appear as a religion advocating violence.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 9:23 AM

If that's true, why do Muslim clerics like those of Al-Azhar and Sheikh Qaradhawi keep claiming that Jews are the descendents of apes and pigs? Mr. Ibramsha, are you saying that the most important Sunni clerics are liars? Would you call them apostates? How would you deal with apostates, and why is there no visible opposition among Muslims against those clerics? What are YOU doing against them?

Posted by: Simon

at June 30, 2005 9:40 AM

Click on small photo at Amazon for the larger photo of the cover. The cover has indeed been changed with the vile quote up top from revivingislam.com

Posted by: dennisw

at June 30, 2005 9:50 AM

OT: James Arlandson

Good article

http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4610

Posted by: mal123

at June 30, 2005 10:09 AM

"Islam is indeed a religion of peace"

Therefore...."“May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over again….Amen.”...must really mean I want to give you a big hug!!!

Problem solved.

Posted by: obl r us

at June 30, 2005 10:27 AM

Robert,

Do you plan to speak in Dallas/Fort Worth anytime sometime soon?

We need you down here.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g.

at June 30, 2005 10:37 AM

I recently reviewed the US State Departments list of recognized terrorists organizations across the planet. There are nearly 40 Identified as Islamic terrorist organizations.

I was unable to find a single Jewish terrorist organization on that list.

Why aren't the Jews implementing their militant tenants of the Torah across the planet?

Am I missing something here ?

Is this a cover up by our US state Department?

Posted by: Mackie

at June 30, 2005 10:54 AM

Robert, great article!

It's difficult when a person raised to be tolerant of all (as is our Western tradition) confronts blatant intolerance. Our first reaction is to tolerate it, our second is to politely point out its failures in reasoning, and our third is the stage we are coming to now: Confront it for what it is, be on guard against it, and act to eliminate it - a monumental task!

You experienced this intolerance first hand at your lecture and one incident was on a personal level: You commented, "We had a brief discussion -- until the young man refused to shake my hand and I realized that no real exchange of ideas was going to be possible ..."

If we can transfer your experience to another aspect of Islam we see intolerance as an institutionalized way of life. Every day in the Muslim world, men refuse to shake the hands of women. This affront to dignity and stark insult is "tolerated" by apologists for Islam, "tolerated" by women who have come to view themselves as less than equal.

This refusal to shake hands is a blanket denial of open-minded discussion, and a rejection of the equality and dignity of the other person but is seen by some as merely a cultural practice, maybe like drinking tea, or eating yogurt. But when it happens to you personally, it hurts!

I understand that some orthodox Jews also refuse to shake the hand of a woman (perhaps this applies just to married women); regardless of the reasons given, it’s an insult.

Your experience was (hopefully) a one-time occurrence; for Muslim women it's a daily way of life.

Posted by: Jen

at June 30, 2005 10:54 AM

Mohideen Ibramsha,

Thank You so much..your explanation has made mw realize that Islam is a religion of peace. I am going to foward your explanation to everyone i know so they stop hacking peoples heads off while screaming Allahu Akbar! Im sure that it is only a small minority of Muslims that are violent and enjoy slaughtering woman and children.

Seriously you have to do better than that. Why dont you so called "moderates" challenge your Islamic leaders Interpretation ....oh wait you cant because they have the texts to back up what they say and you guys have an opinion. Maybe you moderates are also scared for your lives and that is why you dont challenge these animals.

Cowards...all of you

Posted by: pocadon

at June 30, 2005 11:10 AM

Mohideen,

So glad to see that you are a Moslem who believes islam has been hijacked by lying imams, sheiks, ayatollahs, muftis, etc. It is, therefore, critical for you to become actively involved in the movement to overthrow this phoney religion of hate as it is being practiced everywhere in the world today and replace it with your version, the true version, which respects Jews and Christians, rejects jihad, sharia and dhimmitude, and encourages peace and equal rights with those who are non-believers.

Yes, Mohideen, you could be a great hero, a man who will be the center of the future face of islam, working side-by-side with Jews and Christians and going down in history as the great savior of islam, the man who helped return it to the loving religion Mohammed intended.

What you can do is begin forming an Islamic/Jewish/Christian/Hindu/Buddhist/ coalition to wage a unified religious jihad against the lying version of islam being practiced today. Call for the end of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaida, Al Aqsa Martyrs, and all the the regimes which support them. Help lead the coalition to crush the bastard islam we see being forced upon unwitting moslems throughout the arab world and beyond!

Yes, become the great revolutionary hero who saved islam from the corrupt, violent liars who are ruining the religion of peace today. We will create a lasting and real peace with the fully recognized and embraced Jewish State of Israel. America will stop being called the "Great Satan" and become known instead as the "Great Friend" of real islam.

You can do it, Mohideen! The way you bravely declared that islam is being practiced today by "a bunch of liars" proves that you are ready to make a difference; begin the revolution to destroy rogue islam for both the good of Islam and the betterment of the whole world. All you need is the courage to make it happen, Mohideen.

Jews, Christians, and all other non-believers of bastard islam are with you! Together, there would be no stopping us. May peace be upon you.

-MZ

Posted by: Madzionist

at June 30, 2005 11:16 AM

Willaim Spencer you are a patriot and a hero!!
I have never recieved threats on www.allempires.com for posting things about radicals Muslims but I have been called intolerant and a Muslim hater. Even when I specified I was talking about the lunatic fringe and not the so-called moderate Muslims.
Funny thing is not all the people who call me hateful and intolerant are Muslims, many are on the extreme lunatic left wing fringe.
These are the same type who would call me hateful for standing against gay marriage or against all illegal immigrants. I say illegal immigrant and they hear only Mexican!! So, I am a hateful bigot to them even after I say I do not care if they are the same nationality as me, deport them.

I am so intolerant and hateful for standing for the truth. William Spencer as a American with Greek roots I stand by your efforts to expose the enemy within and without.

God Bless Ameria!!

Posted by: eaglecap

at June 30, 2005 11:26 AM

Dear eaglecaps:

Thanks. I had an uncle named William Spencer, and I would forward this to him, but alas, he has passed away.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch

at June 30, 2005 11:38 AM

Mohideen,

You protest that "Only those among the Jews who transgressed all prohibitions were transformed."

This means that Jews must comply with and submit to Muslim demands, or else Allah will turn them into apes. Where is the "tolerance" in that? That is unacceptable and reprehensible for a defender of a religion in the 21st century.

Posted by: metaxy

at June 30, 2005 11:56 AM

You think that Islam is ok, or you think that all humans are equal before the Creator. There is no middle point.

Joel

Posted by: Joel CatalÃ

at June 30, 2005 12:09 PM

Jen

"I understand that some orthodox Jews also refuse to shake the hand of a woman..."

That would be a TINY, EENSY-WEENSY minority among Jews. The numbers of Muslims who think and behave that way are a MAJORITY.

Differences in degree are important -- especially when they are SCREAMINGLY disproportionate.

Posted by: metaxy

at June 30, 2005 12:13 PM

"Mohideen,

You protest that "Only those among the Jews who transgressed all prohibitions were transformed."

IIRC Shukri posted some time ago that failure to submit to Islam as "teh real ltimate p0w3rxx" is aggression against Islam and can be dealt with through violence, I would posit that such an explanation is frequently used by islamic scholars to reason (heh "islamic scholars" and "reason", never thought I'd see them in the same sentence) that Jews and Christians have already transgressed by not changing to their barbaric death cults and that we are inherently "Apes and Pigs" simply because of the transgression of not accepting a greater love of death than life as our guiding religious principle.

Posted by: morguerat

at June 30, 2005 12:14 PM

Lately I've been getting quite a few "classic" liberals to take me very seriously when having private discussions with me about many of the topics that are prime to the daily dose we get here on Jihad Watch.

Take it for what it's worth, but I feel that considering who I have been talking to, the truth is starting to get to the front step of more people than we might have believed possible just a couple of years ago.

Each and every person here can and DOES make a difference in the United States and other Western nations. Do not ever doubt that. For every person that you touch in your life with your thoughts you are giving them the mental ammunition to think with a different perspective, you are enabling them to question old beliefs and many of them will end up in libraries hoping to better understand (or squash) the disturbing ideas you have probably put before them, only to find that the materials available just further substantiate what you have told them. The truth hurts, but not knowing the truth can be DEADLY. Wise people will not run from what you have to say.

This cultural conflict is not about tolerance -- it is about having the WILL TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT -- despite any of the fools that wish to stay in their glass houses. You will find that some of your greatest allies will be the soccer moms, the high school teachers, the preachers, the nurses -- the people that are known for tolerance, but who also have an obligation to PROTECT A FLOCK OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER. They won't generally be so quick to disown the truth as some others and best of all, they will feel obligated to give this truth out in their own ways and they are not the kind of people to be easily dismissed by their peers and associates.

So, what's the moral to this story? STAND FIRM BY YOUR BELIEFS AND KEEP BRINGING THE TRUTH TO PEOPLE, whenever and whereever you are able. Do not force-feed people with it, but make it available. Be reasonable, logical and diplomatic. Hand out a free book from time to time bought with your own cash. Even if someone argues or disagrees with you about the nature of Islam and/or Jihad, have no doubt that if you are coming from the "right place" in your talks with strangers, family, friends, co-workers or what-have-you, you ARE having an impact. They WILL be thinking about things differently after the discussion is over.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" -- John Maynard Keynes (1883-1946)

Posted by: Foehammer

at June 30, 2005 12:20 PM

Dear Simon,
Please forward the Tradition quoted by me to the authorities who claim that Jews are descendants of apes and swine. But let me add a word of caution: did they say it in English or in Arabic? If they said something in Arabic, the translation might be wrong. If they said it in English, sure ask them: “Who is right? Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, or they?” I think the duty of contesting those authorities who are wrong should be taken by all. Insisting that the one who quotes the Tradition alone should do it would not help us achieve peace.

Dear Pocadon,
I have quoted a Tradition. It is a text of Islam. It is not my opinion. It is the statement of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him that I have quoted. It is those who call the Jews as descendants of apes and swine who give their opinion. Allah knows best.

Dear Madzionist
I follow the Holy Quran and the Sunnah (Traditions) of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. When I quote a Tradition, I have the support of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, on the Day of Judgment. I stand for the real Islam as in the Holy Quran and the Traditions.

I have stated elsewhere based on the Traditions that the only religion supported by Allah SWT in the Arabian Peninsula is Islam and Islam only. Jihad is very much valid in Iraq; very much valid in Palestine. Wherever a Muslim is denied the freedom to practice Islam, jihad is indeed valid.

Kindly do not hurt your fellow Muslim by swinging to the other extreme. Yes, Inshah Allah, the real Islam – the Islam which is extremely tolerant, the loving Islam would triumph. What is happening today is the war mongers are instigating each other. Let us not get caught in the crossfire.

May Allah SWT protect His Religion!!!

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 12:22 PM

"Jihad is very much valid in Iraq; very much valid in Palestine. Wherever a Muslim is denied the freedom to practice Islam, jihad is indeed valid." - Mohideen Ibramsha

Ah, I see. Denied the freedom to practice Islam in Iraq and Palestine are they?

Interesting,
Rebecca

Posted by: Rebecca JW

at June 30, 2005 12:33 PM

The Jews who violated the Sabbath were punished; Sabbath is a Jewish requirement, not Islamic requirement. As per Islam, Allah SWT created all that He desired in six days and on the seventh day is governing His creation. Allah SWT is not taking rest.

What is important is that a Jew should obey the Holy Torah, a Christian should obey the Holy Bible and a Muslim should obey the Holy Quran. It is the Muslim belief that in their original uncorrupted version the Holy Torah and the Holy Bible were consistent with the Holy Quran. We Muslims stand for freedom of faith. No faith can be imposed. Not even democracy!

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 12:38 PM

Mohideen Ibrmasha

the real Islam – the Islam which is extremely tolerant, the loving Islam would triumph.

Stop playing games. You wont find any of these clueless leftist idiots to ply your taqiyaah lies with. The real Islam is intolerant. Real Islam is to seek dominion, domination, subjugation and ultimately the extinguishing of all else that is not Islam. Such a creed and cult can only contain such intolerance and bigotry in its soul when it is hardwired as from the example of the Holy Man you worship - Mohammed - and the texts you chant from.

Islam is pure intolerance and bigotry. Stop making a fool of yourself, its the only way you can be.

Posted by: Zico

at June 30, 2005 12:39 PM

Ah, I see. Denied the freedom to practice Islam in Iraq and Palestine are they?
Rebecca

The Palestine and Iraq are under occupation, and thus the population has the right to fight for their independence.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 12:43 PM

Then you have no problem with the US loading all muslims into a catapult and launching them into the sea? After all, we are "under occupation" and under the everpresent threat of further attack, therefore , by your reasoning, we have the right to do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves from you and your ilk.

Posted by: morguerat

at June 30, 2005 12:48 PM

it is hardwired as from the example of the Holy Man you worship - Mohammed - and the texts you chant from.
Zico

We do not worship Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. We worship Allah SWT, (God Almighty) as taught to us by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 12:48 PM

The Muslims did not attack the USA. 9/11 was an inside job. Please visit http://www.suetheterrorists.net/ to learn the truth.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 12:53 PM

Judea and Samaria are indeed under occupation .. by arabs.

Posted by: Infidel33

at June 30, 2005 12:57 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha

I know you claim not to worship Mohammed, but it actuality you worship him like a slave. Thats why you get so upset when we call him a paedophile for penetrating a nine year old girl, and when we call him a blood thirst violent psychopath especially because of his slaughtering of the Banu Qurayza Jewish tribe, and all the rest of his nastiness.

Muslims worship Mohammad. They are true pagans. It is in every act of worship, remembrance, dreaming, lying, all of it is for their lust and peculiar obsession with the epileptic bedouin.

Now, I also notice that you did not contest the rest of my post, about the bigotry and intolerance hardwired into Islams soul? Good. Some honesty at last.

Posted by: Zico

at June 30, 2005 12:57 PM

When I quote a Tradition, I have the support of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, on the Day of Judgment. I stand for the real Islam as in the Holy Quran and the Traditions.

Unless you are deluded and have believed a lie of course. I'm sure you feel quite righteous and content to continue as you are without giving that possiblity a second thought.

I have always thought that all the Western world needs to do is to leave the Arabs alone and they'll do themselves in. They seem to revel in suicide bombing rival mosques and generally blowing up as many people as they can for Allah. Without their oil they would still wondering around in the desert clueless.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g.

at June 30, 2005 12:58 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha:

There is no 'true' Islam and there never was. And therein "lies" the greatest of problems with your cult.

Posted by: Foehammer

at June 30, 2005 1:08 PM

The Muslims did not attack the USA. 9/11 was an inside job. Please visit http://www.suetheterrorists.net/ to learn the truth.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at June 30, 2005 12:53 PM

Mohideen:

I guess if you can swallow Islam and Mohammed as the best interpreter of the word of G_d (instead of seeing Mo as the ranting, raging, sociopath that he was), you can swallow any nonsense, including the idea that Muslims were not the perps of 9/11. Muslim wealth financed it and Muslims carried out the hijackings. Go away with your silly website conspiracy theorists. The biggest conspiracy going, and it's not theoretical, is the one to resurrect the Caliphate.

Posted by: waterdragon52

at June 30, 2005 1:09 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha -

Eagerly awaiting your deportation ... if you are here in the USA. Don't get comfortable. Pack your bags and set them by the door.

Posted by: Havoc

at June 30, 2005 1:09 PM

Oh, and for the record, true Islamists do NOT worship Muhammad. That is a very great evil in their eyes and minds and has been the cause of execution for Muslims throughout history that have dared put Muhammad before Allah.

Just showing again that I do take the time to understand the enemy in detail.

Posted by: Foehammer

at June 30, 2005 1:11 PM

Mohideen,

Tolerance should be imposed and protected. Intolerance should be rejected and fought against.

It is intolerant to force Jews to practice their Sabbath or to kill Muslims who leave Islam. It is tolerant to allow Jews not to practice their Sabbath if they don't want to and to allow Muslims to leave Islam and even spill coffee on the Koran if they want to without any punishment.

Posted by: metaxy

at June 30, 2005 1:11 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha -

... And another thing: America owes islam/muslims absolutely NOTHING. More and more of us are coming to this conclusion every day.

Enjoy the camels, goats, and the middle eastern weedpatch. (Oh, and the leather tents.)

Posted by: Havoc

at June 30, 2005 1:13 PM

The Muslims did not attack the USA. 9/11 was an inside job. Please visit http://www.suetheterrorists.net/ to learn the truth.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at June 30, 2005 12:53 PM

As was the US Embassy bombing in Kenya (which happened while I was in Basic Training), the USS Cole, and the first WTC bombing to name a tiny percentage of attacks against the US by islam, I'm sure. /sarcasm

You can go back to your desert hell bowing to every non-muslim on the way and begging forgiveness for 1400 years of genocide, rape, and theft before I will waste another nanosecond on you.

Posted by: morguerat

at June 30, 2005 1:26 PM

Golly gee, I am SOOOO proud to be Palestinian Arab from the West Bank. Let me tell you the reasons why I have such warm, fuzzy feelings about my people and culture:

1. There is no such thing as Mothers Day. No worry about cards, gifts, and expensive meals. There is no honor in being a woman in our culture, so there is no reason to devote a day to her. We do, however, get to enjoy watching our fathers beat our mothers senseless for the slightest real or imagined infraction. Also, if Dad suspects that Mom spoke to a strange man in the street, he gets to kill her to preserve the family honor!

2. Weapons. Every child, from the time he can grasp an object, is trained to feel comfortable with a rifle or pistol in his hand. And every Palestinian has a weapon: a gun, a rocket launcher, a pound of C-4. What good are hands if they aren't used to kill?

3. Hate. Boy, we love to hate. Hate is the very basis and foundation of our culture. From the time a child is old enough to understand language, we teach him to hate. Hate Jews, hate the West, hate his fellow man, and most of all, hate himself. We have no love songs, we do not preach love, the word love does not appear anywhere in our society. Hate is the fuel that runs our motors.

4. Death. The moment a Palestinian Arab child is born, his parents begin to plan his death. How will he die? Will he be struck by an Israeli bullet while being used as a human shield by Palestinian gunmen? Will he get shot while throwing rocks at Jewish soldiers? Will he be packed with explosives and sent to blow himself up, killing others? Or will he merely be one of the many Palestinians murdered by other Palestinians in the normal course of daily life in the death-culture of the Palestinian Arabs? Who knows? That's part of the thrill.

5. Unemployment. Palestinians used to have jobs, working in Israel. But then, our leaders had a brilliant idea: suicide bombings! For their own protection, Israel had to close its borders, preventing Palestinians from going to their jobs, so they could sit around unemployed and blame the Jews for it. What great fun to be your own worst enemy!

6. Martyrdom. Who in their right mind wants to be a martyr? Among normal people, a martyr complex is considered immature and obnoxious, if not downright crazy. With us, it's the central syndrome of our society! Hey, look at me, I'm gonna kill myself and become admired! And then, when we do kill ourselves, instead of being considered pathetic, we DO get admired! It's a whole complete cycle of sickness! American kids collect baseball cards; Palestinian kids collect martyr cards (really! no joke!).

7. A feeling of entitlement. When Israel came into being, we declared war. We lost. We fought again. We lost. We fought again. We lost. Israel had the right to kill us all (we sure would kill all of them if we got the chance). Instead, they allow us to live on land they conquered. But we can't leave that alone. We have to claim entitlement to live on land that we lost in 6 wars. Since when does the loser of a war get to claim the land he fought over? They don't. But we do. Not only that, but we happily kill our kids over it! Hey, what's more important -- a chunk of dirt, or some worthless kid who isn't going to amount to anything anyway?

8. Uselessness. The Jews have won more Nobel Prizes than all other ethnic groups combined. Their contributions to science, art, literature and the humanities is far out of proportion to their population. What have Palestinians produced? Nothing! Not a thing. We don't do anything productive. We're too busy rioting and killing and chanting and screaming and calling for everyone's death. And we blame the Jews for it, as though the Jews stop us from being productive.

9. Friends. The Palestinian people sure know how to pick 'em. Saadam Hussein. The Taliban. Adolf Hitler. You name a psychopath, and we embrace him. And look who our supporters are! The American Nazi Party. The KKK. Just check their websites and see how they stand in solidarity with us. When you support the Palestinian "cause," you're in real good company. Bring your white sheet!

10. Freedom. The biggest laugh in the world is when people call us "freedom fighters" or they say we're fighting for our freedom. Take a look at all 22 Arab countries. Do you see any freedom there? Well, that's what our country will be like if we ever get one. It will be a dictatorship run by armed, masked thugs who will kill anyone who dissents. Just like we are now. Freedom???? LOLOLOLOL The word doesn't even exist in our language. Hey, just like George Orwell said: "Freedom is slavery. Long live big brother!"

Remember: Israel is bad! LOLOL -- It's existence keeps reminding us what a bunch of losers we are.

Posted by: Pegcity

at June 30, 2005 1:52 PM

..So Mohamad Atta was working for the United States? Because passengers and crew on board his plane called in his seat number and description to loved ones and to people at the airlines with their cell phones when they realized what was happening and the seat numbers of his friends also. Those seat numbers were identified as belonging to him and his friends and the description of him matched the video of him boarding at the airport. He also left a suicide letter in his car. Was that planted? By whom?
..The other planes had cell phone calls made by passengers with descriptions and seat numbers called in also. Did Atta's family get paid by check? Or promises of some kind? Because they swear he wasn't even on board. They said he isn't dead they just don't know where he is right now.

..Bin Laden was also video taped saying the attacks went better than planned. That means he was in on the planning. Was he working for the United States also? Are we hiding him? To what purpose? How is bin Laden being paid? Surely he is not working for free? What is the common goal? bin Laden wants WHAT from the United States that makes him willing to work for the pentagon? Or is it the white house that he works for?

..You can write any kind of book you want about what happened and some people will believe it. Publishers print whatever they want because they know it will sell. Do they really believe it? The families who talked to their loved ones on the planes that day will never believe you. The people working the ground at the airlines who took the calls from the stewardesses. They heard the truth. They told investigators that truth. The last testiment from dying loved ones.
......THAT'S THE TRUTH.

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 2:19 PM

Pack your bags and set them by the door.
Havoc

Verse 42 of Chapter 39 of the Holy Quran says:
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It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
===

The bags of a Muslim are always packed and placed by the door every night.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 2:47 PM

It is unfortunate that Jen above has chosen to implicate Orthodox Jews for being like moslems in regards to the modesty laws of men and women touching.

Orthodox Jews do not touch the opposite sex because it is considered disrespectful and inappropriate for men and women of the opposite sex, who are not married, to touch one another. I can assure her this is not chauvenistic, as Orthodox women are as unwilling to touch men as it is the other way around.

Please don't take offense by this, as it is not personal or a sexist view of the world, rather it is out of the highest respect for the sanctity of marriage that it is only appropriate for man and wife to touch. Family, of course, is excluded from the modesty laws. Also, remembering this is how observant Jews show respect for one another and the importance of marriage, and not some backhanded way to tell others they are lesser or somehow not clean, will hopefully prevent you from being angered or insulted in the future.

Religious Jews do not become enraged when gentiles or less religious Jews choose not to observe these modesty laws, so I ask only that you offer those who do choose to live by such rules the respect, courtesy and tolerance they deserve.

Thnks,

-MZ

Posted by: Madzionist

at June 30, 2005 2:48 PM

Mohideen Ibrmasha

Did you know that Mecca was the center of ancient pagan worship before Mohammad claimed it and many of their traditions for Mohammadanism? Where do you think the crescent moon and star symbols came from or the Kaaba, not Mohammad.

Some traditions of Mohammad to bolster my contention that Mohammad was a follower of Jews, Christians and pagans, but he really liked to mimic the Christians.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 279:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
When the Prophet arrived at Medina he found that the Jews observed fast on the day of 'Ashura'. They were asked the reason for the fast. They replied, "This is the day when Allah caused Moses and the children of Israel to have victory over Pharaoh, so we fast on this day as a sign of glorifying it." Allah's Apostle said, "We are closer to Moses than you." Then he ordered that fasting on this day should be observed.

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 280:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas:
The Prophet used to keep his hair falling loose while the pagans used to part their hair, and the People of the Scriptures used to keep their hair falling loose, and the Prophet liked to follow the People of the Scriptures in matters about which he had not been instructed differently, but later on the Prophet started parting his hair.

Posted by: Bar

at June 30, 2005 3:00 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha

The same character who is recently posting on numerous websites such as jihad unspun presumably? Describes himself as "retired from the Framingham State College as Associate Professor of CS in 2003. Currently I spend my time promoting my company and doing social service."

We do not worship Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him

No, you idolise him, albeit without an image.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax

at June 30, 2005 3:04 PM

It seems that he personally killed people and had people killed. Read about Sunayna, Uqbah, Sallam Huqayq, Ashraf, the family of the woman captive Safiyah, and on and on and on...
How can anyone associate these tales with peace.. I just don't understand how...

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And as far as tolerance goes:
..Quran 60:5 "Hostility and hate have come between us FOREVER, unless you believe in Allah only."

the more I read the more I don't understand how ANYONE SANE can follow this religion...

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To MZ the no hand touching rule is the same reason the Islamist give is it not?

The Jews believe in one god, don't they? Why didn't the original muslims treat them better since they both have the "ONE GOD" belief? Any answer other than power and needing an enemy to steal from?

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 3:13 PM

Man I just hate when they say "peace be upon him"

Thats like me saying "peace be upon him" everytime I say a serial killer or child molesters name

Adolph Hitler, peace be upon him, slaughtered millions of Jews because he could

Jeffery Damer, peace be upon him, raped and ate alot of people

doesnt make much sense to me, but I am speaking of Muslims so making sense is not worth it.

Posted by: pocadon

at June 30, 2005 3:21 PM

Borg,

I am not sure why the moslems don't touch, or what the moslem rules against touching are. Perhaps another person more well versed in islam on this message board can answer that?

"Why didn't the original muslims treat them better since they both have the "ONE GOD" belief? Any answer other than power and needing an enemy to steal from?"

Intitially, Jews thought islam would be a much needed friend and ally, as the pagan arab rabble and Christians were brutal to Jews in the 7th century. In fact, arabian Jews fought on mohammed's side in the early stages of his conquest. Mohammed was certain that the Jews would then buy his schtick about being the final prophet and convert to islam, but he was totally wrong, completely rejected, became enraged, and made this jilting the basis for the viscious anti-Semitism so inherent in the islam that followed.

-MZ

Posted by: Madzionist

at June 30, 2005 3:32 PM

Again from the Lodi, California story...
"Right now in the mosque they don't even have one person who can speak on behalf of the Muslim community," he said.
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Isn't this one of the main problems? There never is anyone who speaks for the community. Members can always say this or that person doesn't represent the true..... (fill in the blank)
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The "buck" never stops...anywhere..no one is responsible...ever...Isn't that what anarchy is all about? Whoever is strongest grabs the reins for now..'til they are killed, then the next one takes over..
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I know, I know, it's not the only problem...misunderstood by everyone inside the religion and outside the religion... the buck never stops there either...anyone who disagrees with anyone can always say they misunderstand the faith.. and who's to argue??? With no real leadership driving the wagon it can go where ever it wants and who's to stop it? Without getting run over that is...
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. yeah and don't tell me a caliphate is the answer either... look what happens to all of them
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....And here we are at the inauguration of the new caliphate # 1,123,456,999...On this beautiful day for our beautiful religion..oh wait...he has just been assassinated...someone just slit his throat because he misunderstood our beautiful religion (and so easy to understand it is, too!)...so folks who will step up next?... you sir?...OK And here we are at the inauguration of the new caliphate # 1,123,457,000...
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.And now to the problem of what to do with all these young men with no wife because all the old men have married the girls as soon as they become of age...a war you say!...hmm yes I think we can send a lot of them off to kill themselves and keep the next batch of young girls to ourselves...sounds like a good idea...lets get them to the mosque and rile them up..and who's to stop us???? The ones that don't get killed will have to be sent off to another country to find wives...sounds like a plan and hey, who's to stop us?

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The Religion of Anarchy
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"Wherever a Muslim is denied the freedom to practice Islam, jihad is indeed valid."
So..all of those mosques in Gaza and the West Bank aren't being used?
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Last two questions..If Jesus is coming back on the "last day" , according to the quran, why is it that "THE prophet" always means mohammad to ANY moslem, it seems that if the quran states that line there is MORE importance to him? Why isn't the phrase- Allah and his prophets? or Allah and his messengers? Plural?

And lastly, the requirement to pray at EXACTLY sunset has nothing to do with worship of the Pagan moongod? What is the reason for the coincidence of this prayer time being exactly at sunset and changing daily to be kept at that time and not just a fixed time? Sounds like it has something to do with the moon to me. Just like IBN Warraq says.

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 3:48 PM

Seems that many here are trying to reason with someone who does violence to reason itself. Can you imagine trying to learn computer science from such a fool?

Posted by: Infidel33

at June 30, 2005 3:57 PM

If moslems consider all the prophets equal why is every son named Mohammad or some derivative of it and every daughter named Fatima or Aisha or some derivative of it? How many Noah's are there or Mary's. Surely if they are named in the "books" and are important the children would carry the names. And if not why not?

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 4:06 PM

Borg:

Who knows, but everytime I think of this Muslim naming phenom I am reminded of what a Hispanic told me was the reason why illigitimate males were often named Jesus, and the explanation a Calebrese friend gave me as to why her surname translated as "of the Angels".

Posted by: waterdragon52

at June 30, 2005 4:39 PM

Metaxy: Tolerance should be imposed and protected. Intolerance should be rejected and fought against.

Compulsary tolerance is one of the few really compulsary things in a liberal democracy. This includes a degree of tolerance for intolerance.

But when intolerance attempts to destroy this compulsary tolerance, then we have to fight back.

Posted by: Loxias

at June 30, 2005 4:50 PM

When I worked in Egypt I met a lot of people who thought like Mr. Ibramsha. They were convinced that Terrorism was the result of conspiracies either by the CIA or by the Mossad.

The vast majority of Muslims are decent people. Their problem is that they are not allowed to criticize their religion.

The defects of Islam are obvious: Lack of self-criticism, subjugation of women, propagation of unbounded violence ("kill them wherever you find them" etc.), contradictions within the "uncreated word of Allah" etc., but as soon as someone mentions those defects, he is called a traitor, an agent of Israel or an apostate. No society could ever work with a religion like this.

I am convinced that Mr Ibramsha's intentions are noble when he talks about a "peaceful Islam", but I'm sure he knows that this fictious Islam is his personal invention.

Mr Ibramsha: How can the Qur'an be the perfect word of Allah when it is so easily misunderstood?

How could the Qur'an be the perfect word of Allah when it advocates murder of people who dare to criticize it? (4:89/ "if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them")?

How could the true God ever justify the sexual exploitation of childen (Mohammed had intercourse with a nine-year old girl) and the rape of female civilian prisoners (whose marriages are considered to be automatically dissolved when they are captures by Muslims)?

Islam has nothing to do with God. It was all Mohammed's invention. If you are looking for truth, you won't find it in Islam. Isn't it obvious? How do you explain these defects?

Posted by: Simon

at June 30, 2005 4:53 PM

Ok waterdragon52, I'll bite- what is that supposed to mean?
"a Hispanic told me was the reason why illigitimate males were often named Jesus,"

I've known Jewish people named Abraham and Miriam, Christians named Noah, Mary, Paul and John, Muslims named Mohammad and Siad (where did that one come from?) and Hispanic's named Jesus and Maria, but I never thought the Hispanic was being named for god. Or that is had anything to do with illigitimate birth.
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Also, OT, there is a poster who says Aeisha could not have been 9 years old at her marriage because she recounts the tales of Mohammad with such clarity and maturity and how could she do that if she was nine. Now, I would think that any person with a brain would think, gee maybe she was older and recollecting the stories of her youth. But he is insistant that this is proof she was 19 or 20 at her marriage even with it in print in all books and her owns words that she was not. It makes it hard to believe any statements made by a moslem. What's that word for misleading others again?

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 5:23 PM

It seems like Ghenghis Khan might have been a descendant instead of an invader.

By the way Marco Polo said of his travels in the middle east--There is nothing here but liars, murderers and thieves. Astute observer.

Keep up the good work Mr. Spencer. We're learning. I used to argue for tolerance before September 11 2001. I don't any more.

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 5:41 PM

Verse 125 of Chapter 2 of the Holy Quran says:
===
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ismail, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in Prayer).
===

The Kabah was built by Prophets Abraham and Ismail, peace be upon them, and started as a Muslim place of worship. The city of Makkah developed around the Kabah. Thus, the city and the Mosque were Islamic to start with. With the reduction of faith in the absence of Prophets, peace be upon them, the Kabah was filled with idols and the city of Makkah became a city of pagans. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, restored them to their original glory.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 6:28 PM

Some traditions of Mohammad to bolster my contention that Mohammad was a follower of Jews, Christians and pagans, but he really liked to mimic the Christians.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 279:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
When the Prophet arrived at Medina he found that the Jews observed fast on the day of 'Ashura'. They were asked the reason for the fast. They replied, "This is the day when Allah caused Moses and the children of Israel to have victory over Pharaoh, so we fast on this day as a sign of glorifying it." Allah's Apostle said, "We are closer to Moses than you." Then he ordered that fasting on this day should be observed.
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 280:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abbas:
The Prophet used to keep his hair falling loose while the pagans used to part their hair, and the People of the Scriptures used to keep their hair falling loose, and the Prophet liked to follow the People of the Scriptures in matters about which he had not been instructed differently, but later on the Prophet started parting his hair.
Bar

Let us consider Tradition 662 of Volume 2 of Sahih Al-Bukhari, quoted below:
===
Narrated Aisha
The people used to fast on 'Ashura (the tenth day of the month of Muharram) before the fasting of Ramadan was made obligatory. And on that day the Ka'ba used to be covered with a cover. When Allah made the fasting of the month of Ramadan compulsory, Allah's
Apostle said, "Whoever wishes to fast (on the day of 'Ashura') may do so; and whoever wishes to leave it can do so."
===

The Muslims believe that all the Prophets, peace be upon them, were sent with the same Religion. Thus, in the absence of a Revelation from Allah SWT, it is just natural that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, adopted the practice of the People of the Book. However, when Allah SWT had legislated about fasting, the fasting in Ramadaan became obligatory and thus the fasting on Ashura was made optional.

As regards the parting of the hair, the following Tradition numbered 611 in Volume 2 of Sahih Al-Bukhari gives more detail.
===
Narrated Said bin Jubair
Ibn 'Umar used to oil his hair. I told that to Ibrahim who said, "What do you think about
this statement: Narrated Aswad from 'Aisha: As if I were now observing the glitter of the
scent in the parting of the hair of the Prophet while he was Muhrim?"
===

During the Hajj, the women use stitched clothes, whereas all the men are to use two unstitched cloths, one for the shoulders and another for the waist. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, performed Hajj in his last year. The parting of the hair was possibly done to show the difference in the hair as there was difference in the dress. What was required was a specific dress code during the Hajj. The dress used in Hajj could as well be used later also. So, the observation in Tradition numbered 280, Volume 5 of Sahih Al-Bukhari refers to the parting of the hair after the Hajj.

We should thank Bar for giving us an opportunity to show that Islam being the same religion of all the Prophets, peace be upon them, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, adopted the ways of the People of the Book in the absence of Revelation on that topic and of course followed the Revelation once given to him.

Thanks Bar.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 6:52 PM

"Wherever a Muslim is denied the freedom to practice Islam, jihad is indeed valid."
So..all of those mosques in Gaza and the West Bank aren't being used?
Borg

Practice of Islam is not restricted to the prayers inside the mosque alone; the Muslims follow Islam both inside and outside the mosque.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 7:03 PM

dear mohideen ibramsha
you are welcome to post on this website till the cows come home but let me reassure you that islam will never, i repeat, never take over america, peace be upon her.

Posted by: dms

at June 30, 2005 7:06 PM

Your welcome Mohideen Ibramsha
Now what if Mohammed adopted the corrupted part?

Mohammadanism is not compatible with any of the Biblical prophets. To believe otherwise would cause Mohammed to be regarded as a false prophet, because he doesn’t rise to the Biblical standard set for a true prophet, he does meet the standard set for a false prophet. He declares so himself when ask to preform a miracle, he admits, he can not! Nothing like setting high standards for your only prophet. Typical of Mohammadanism where the murder of Israeli noncombatants is done for the glory of Allah and considered honorable. Or Osama and his sending 19 jihadist to murder unarmed civilians in America like cowards. All for his glory right, until none has the right to be worship except, Allah, Mohammed, black rock, badly written book, ect...

Mohideen, do Moslems know that monotheism doesn’t mean one god at a time?

Posted by: Bar

at June 30, 2005 7:39 PM

Last two questions..If Jesus is coming back on the "last day" , according to the quran, why is it that "THE prophet" always means mohammad to ANY moslem, it seems that if the quran states that line there is MORE importance to him? Why isn't the phrase- Allah and his prophets? or Allah and his messengers? Plural?
Borg

Prophet Jesus, son of Mary, peace be upon them, was taken to Heaven some 2000 years back. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, received the Holy Quran as a series of Revelations. Since the Holy Quran was given to that Prophet, peace be upon him, there is a singular form. The Holy Quran was not revealed to all the Prophets at the same time. Today, if we teach the ‘Theory of Relativity’ we do not call the current teacher ‘Einstein.’

If the prayer is to the moon god, it would be offered when the moon is in the sky. The moon appears at different times at different days. So, offering the prayer at sunset has nothing to do with the moon god.

The Muslims pray after the sun has fully set, to emphasize the fact that they are not praying to the sun god. Similarly, in the morning, prayer must be completed before sunrise again to show that the prayer is not to sun god. The Muslims are not to pray exactly at noon. These three times are avoided to remove any confusion with the Hindu times of worship.

From http://www.mypurohith.com/Rituals/Sandhyavandanam.asp we find:
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What is the meaning of the word Sandhyavandanam? Vandanam means worship. Both worship and meditation are involved in Sandhyavandanam. What is the meaning of Sandhya? Sandhya means the time of union. The time which relates to the union of two things, i.e. the time between the night and morning (first junction Dawn), between forenoon and afternoon (second junction Noon) and between afternoon and evening (third Jn. Dusk); Sandhya means dawn, noon and dusk. Sandhyavandanam means a ritual done at the time of three junctions, Dawn, Noon and Dusk.
===

So, the Muslim prayer times are given to avoid overlap with the Hindu prayer times.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 7:52 PM

moHIDDEN I.-

The Ka'aba is the resting place of a glued-together meteorite, former site of many gods.

Mohammad (pb&j) was a future-pedophile, megalomanical illiterate, given to epileptic seizures, during which he first thought he was just crazy, but his gullible relatives, seeing a profit in this 'prophet', encouraged his delusions of grandeur until the cult started to take off, then his followers picked up their swords, plundered caravans for loot, raped, deceived, murdered and the malignant trend has continued to massacre its way across the globe and metastasize into the world-wide imperialistic despotic mess we see today. Headlocked in 7th century darkness, as smug as blind pimp at a braille porno convention.

Go peddle you dogma in Mecca.

The Renaissance has left you in the dust.

Freedom of thought trumps bowing to rocks. (Especially if they are in your head.)

Posted by: BigSleep

at June 30, 2005 8:17 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha says,

"If the prayer is to the moon god..."

"The Muslims pray after the sun has fully set, to emphasize the fact that they are not praying to the sun god."

The conclusion is that the moon and the sun are gods. Lesser gods, of course.

It seems to me that the role the moon and the sun play in maintaining our existence is indeed vital.

I will continue to bark at the moon and await the rising of the sun as a means to mark my days of existence on this lonely rock which floats through space.

Paraphrasing a quote I heard many moons and suns ago, "Man is pathetic. He can't create a worm, but he incessantly creates numerous gods."

Enjoy your god. The moon and the sun are REAL and they are mine. :-)

Posted by: Skeet Street

at June 30, 2005 8:38 PM

Thanks for trying to clear up that bit about the moon. But it still doesn't make sense to me and I had no idea Hindu's had a part in setting it up.

I also didn't understand the explanation of Jesus coming back on the "last day" not making him the more important prophet just because revelations were given to someone else. That coming back part seems to set him apart and somewhat if not completely above the others.

What part of their religion are those in Gaza and the west bank not allowed to practice? Sharia???
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And I must have missed your answer to this:

I have heard moslems say that Mohammad never killed anyone. If that is true explain this please...
Ishaq:389 "When the Apostle came home he handed his sword to his daughter Fatima, saying, "Wash the blood from this, daughter, for by Allah it has served me well today."
...It seems that he personally killed people and had people killed. Read about Sunayna, Uqbah, Sallam Huqayq, Ashraf, the family of the woman captive Safiyah, and on and on and on...
How can anyone associate these tales with peace.. I just don't understand how...

I would like to know about these murder victims? Was Mohammad told to kill them by Allah or were their deaths just a side note. A sign of the times? Is that what all the PBUH is about?, because he never lived in peace even when he wasn't at war.

It's too confusing.. unless it can be made clearer Modhideen I think I'll have to go with Skeet Street. Yes, indeed, worms!!!! Simple enough!!!

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 9:55 PM

Thanks for trying to clear up that bit about the moon. But it still doesn't make sense to me and I had no idea Hindu's had a part in setting it up.

What part of their religion are those in Gaza and the west bank not allowed to practice? Sharia???
.
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And I must have missed your answer to this:

It's too confusing.. unless it can be made clearer Modhideen I think I'll have to go with Skeet Street. Yes, indeed, worms!!!! Simple enough!!!

Posted by: Borg

at June 30, 2005 9:55 PM

Ishaq:389 "When the Apostle came home he handed his sword to his daughter Fatima, saying, "Wash the blood from this, daughter, for by Allah it has served me well today."
...It seems that he personally killed people and had people killed. Read about Sunayna, Uqbah, Sallam Huqayq, Ashraf, the family of the woman captive Safiyah, and on and on and on...
How can anyone associate these tales with peace.. I just don't understand how...
I would like to know about these murder victims? Was Mohammad told to kill them by Allah or were their deaths just a side note. A sign of the times? Is that what all the PBUH is about?, because he never lived in peace even when he wasn't at war.
Borg

The above statement is not found in the collections Abu-Dawood, Al-Bukhari, Al-Muwatta, Al-Qudsi, Al-Tirmidhi, Fiqh-us-Sunnah, and Muslim. These are the most authentic collections. A search with the words ‘sword’ and ‘blood’ yielded 3 from Abu-Dawood, 2 from Al-Bukhari, and 1 each from Al-Muwatta and Al-Tirmidhi. So, we cannot really take the above statement as valid and justify it.

Currently we are conducting the “War on Terrorism” from November 2001, in which thousands of bombs had been dropped. How many bombs were dropped by the Commander-in-Chief? Possibly none. Still, we hold him responsible for ordering the wars. Likewise it is possible that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not kill anyone by his own hands. Still, he has led the army in many battles and thus he is indeed responsible for all the wars conducted by the Muslims until his death. We, the Muslims, believe that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, would be rewarded for all his actions, including the sanction of all the wars conducted by the Muslims under his warch.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at June 30, 2005 11:57 PM

"May Allah rip out his spine from his back and split his brains in two, and then put them both back, and then do it over and over again….Amen"

Wow the jihadists are channeling Monty Python..

What next?

Robert's not afraid to die in nasty ways..

Brave, Brave Sir Robert..

Posted by: Crusher

at July 1, 2005 12:04 AM

Perhaps moslems will be rewarded with the martyrdom they seek, just as their opponents are rewarded with the victories they deserve, and may islam be remembered after its demise as a plague over which mankind successfully triumphed and found peace.

Now this is a win-win situation.

-MZ

Posted by: Madzionist

at July 1, 2005 12:18 AM

"And lastly, the requirement to pray at EXACTLY sunset has nothing to do with worship of the Pagan moongod? What is the reason for the coincidence of this prayer time being exactly at sunset and changing daily to be kept at that time and not just a fixed time? Sounds like it has something to do with the moon to me. Just like IBN Warraq says. from Borg"

It's also interesting to note (As I'm sure you know) that the full moon always rises and sets with the sun

Posted by: morguerat

at July 1, 2005 9:48 AM

Mad Zionist:

My purpose in mentioning that orthodox Jews will not shake a woman's hand (thanks for the clarification you added) wasn't to equate Jews with Muslims in their treatment of women, but rather to bring this point up before a Muslim brought it up. You notice that I included "I understand" meaning that I was open to hearing further explanation - and I thank you for enlightening me. I stated it as a fact - not necessarily as a criticism.

I know that Jews do not try to foist their religion on the rest of the world - and it wasn't my intention to imply that in any way.

Also, I added the reference because, being female and a feminist, I'm aware of sexist bias wherever it's found. I felt that most men need to be reminded of how it feels to be snubbed this way. (Sex discrimination and religious discrimination are variations of intolerance, usually found hand-in-hand.)

You've explained to me that it's not meant as an insult in Judaism, but nonetheless it's bringing gender into a situation in which it's not relevant (this is a definition of sexism), i.e., meeting a stranger. If orthodox Jews believe that it's relevant, then we differ - but amicably and respectfully.

I take exception though with the Muslim practice because it's one more symptom of a pervasive misogyny. I'm sure it has nothing to do with modesty requirements but everything to do with the inferior status of women. This I know from the way it was explained to me by a Muslim friend.

I've shaken hands with many Muslim men; so far, not one has refused. But I've been warned to expect it someday. I see by another article posted here that an Iranian minister (male of course) just refused to shake the hand of a Belgian minister (female). This went along with demands that alcohol not be served - both attempts at control and imposing the Islamic way.

Thanks, MZ, for your information.

Posted by: Jen

at July 1, 2005 6:35 PM

Muslims seek victory; they continue to seek it as long as they are alive. If any dies seeking victory, he gets martyrdom. So, there is no win-win situation. Muslims are bound to win.

As regards a time when Islam would be absent from the earth, yes indeed there is such a time. That comes after the return of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, and his death. Tradition 1370 of Sahih Muslim describes such a time. Quoting the Tradition, we have:
===
Narrated An-Nawwas ibn Sam'an
Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) mentioned of the Dajjal one day in the morning. He sometimes described him as insignificant and sometimes described (his turmoil) as very significant (and we felt) as if he were in the cluster of the date-palm trees. When we went to him (to the Holy Prophet) in the evening and he read (the signs of fear) on our faces, he said: What is the matter with you? We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) you mentioned the Dajjal this morning (sometimes describing him) as insignificant and sometimes very important, until we began to think he was present in some (nearly) part of the cluster of the date-palm trees. So he said: I harbour fear in regard to you in so many other things besides the Dajjal. If he comes forth while I am among you, I shall contend with him on your behalf, but if he comes forth while I am not among you, a man must contend on his own behalf and Allah will take care of every Muslim on my behalf (and safeguard him against his evil). He (the Dajjal) will be a young man with twisted, cropped hair, and a blind eye. I compare him with AbdulUzza ibn Qatan. He who among you will survive to see him should recite over him the opening verses of Surah al-Kahf (xviii). He will appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and will spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! Adhere (to the path of Truth). We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), how long will he stay on Earth? He said: For forty days, one day like a year, one day like a month, one day like a week, and the rest of the days will be like your days. We said: Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) will one day's prayer suffice for the prayers of the day equal to one year? Thereupon he said: No, but you must make an estimate of the time (and then observe prayer). We said: Allah's apostle (peace be upon him) how quickly will he walk upon the earth? Thereupon he said: Like cloud driven by the wind. He will come to the people and invite them (to a wrong religion); they will affirm their faith in him and respond to him. He will then give a command to the sky: there will be rainfall upon the Earth and it will grow crops. Then in the evening, their pasturing animals will come to them with their humps very high, their udders full of milk and their flanks distended. He will then come to another people and invite them. But they will reject him so he will go away from them; they will have a drought and nothing will be left with them in the form of wealth. He will then walk through the desert and say to it: Bring forth your treasures. The treasures will come out and gather before him like a swarm of bees. He will then call someone in the flush of youth, strike him with the sword, cut him into two pieces and (make these pieces lie at the distance which is generally between the archer and his target. He will then call (that young man) and he will come forward laughing with his face gleaming (with happiness). It will at this very time that Allah will send Christ, son of Mary. He will descend at the white minaret on the eastern side of Damascus, wearing two garments lightly dyed with saffron and placing his hands on the wings of two Angels. When he lowers his head, there will fall beads of perspiration from his head, and when he raises it up, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every non-believer who smells the odour of his body will die and his breath will reach as far as he is able to see. He will then search for him (Dajjal) until he catches hold of him at the gate of Ludd and kills him. Then a people whom Allah had protected will come to Jesus, son of Mary, and he will wipe their faces and inform them of their ranks in Paradise. It will be under such conditions that Allah will reveal to Jesus these words: I have brought forth from among My servants such people against whom none will be able to fight; you take these people safely to Tur, and then Allah will send Gog and Magog and they will swarm down from every slope. The first of them will pass the lake of Tiberias and drink out of it. And when the last of them passes, he will say: There was once water there. Jesus and his companions will then be besieged here (at Tur, and they will be so hard pressed) that the head of the ox will be dearer to them than one hundred dinars. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions will supplicate Allah, Who will send to them insects (which will attack their necks) and in the morning they would perish as one single person. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions, then come down to Earth and they will not find on Earth as much space as a single span that is not filled with putrefaction and stench. Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him), Jesus, and his companions will then beseech Allah who will send birds whose necks would be like those of Bactrian camels and they will carry them away and throw them where Allah wills. Then Allah will send rain which no house of mud-bricks or (tent of) camel-hair will keep out and it will wash the Earth until it resembles a mirror. Then the Earth will be told to bring forth its fruit and restore its blessing and, as a result thereof, there will grow (such a big) pomegranate that a group of people will be able to eat it and seek shelter under its skin, a dairy cow will give so much milk that a whole party will be able to drink it. The milking camel will give such (a large quantity of) milk that the whole tribe will be able to drink from it, and the milking-sheep will give so much milk that the whole family will be able to drink from it. At that time Allah will send a pleasant wind which will soothe (people) even under their armpits. He will take the life of every Muslim and only the wicked will survive who will commit adultery like asses and the Last Hour would come to them.
===

So, there indeed is a time when Islam is absent from the earth, just before the end. Until then, Islam is bound to flourish. Let us not forget that Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, returns as a Muslim and kills every non-Muslim within his sight.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at July 1, 2005 11:54 PM

Why bother wrestling with the devil...no matter how high, or lofty, Mohideens Islamic house of cards is built, it is still built on the foundations of the rotted bones of it's victims.
The shifting sands of time have eroded those foundations and brought the rotted bones into view...soon the house of cards will weaken and fall...Allah knows best...it has been predestined...

Posted by: duh_swami

at July 2, 2005 12:45 AM

Mohideen - How does that fit with this?...

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors {authorities]: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

2:63 And remember We took your Covenant and We raised above you the towering height of Mount (Sinai) (saying): “Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: perchance ye may fear Allah.”

ok - this is in that Covenant:

Isa 14:31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. Song of Moses - the saints 'sing' this song} Rev 15:3

And here is the sorest issue upon the face of the earth - called Palestine - for ALL to see.

Consider this:

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Only those among the Jews who transgressed all prohibitions were transformed.

The New Testament teaches:

Rom 3:23 All have sinned, and [ALL] come short of the glory of God

Islam is indeed a religion of peace; some twist it to make it appear as a religion advocating violence.

Then what about these Mohideen?

004.095 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. But those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

004.101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

The New Testament asks:

Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

There is not ONE SINGLE New Testament Scripture where humans are aloud to be violent with each other - Quite the Contrary! You will not be able to present any - because there aren't any.

So - which religion is Truly the way to Peace Mohideen? Which one has more pure teachings? for all of mankind

But more importantly - Eternal Life is at stake

1Jo 3:15 No murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And yet, 'allah' sends out many of them - to take lives that they did not give - nor can replace - which equals 'Playing God'

Posted by: Beth

at July 2, 2005 12:54 AM

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman [Church of God] which brought forth the man child. [The Son of God]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. {The Son of God]

Now that is a pretty amazing prophecy Mohideen. All you have to do is take a look at world reports

Posted by: Beth

at July 2, 2005 12:59 AM

Let us not forget that Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, returns as a Muslim and kills every non-Muslim within his sight.

Mar 8:12 And he [Jesus]sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

The sign of Jonah is this:

Jon 4:9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he [Jonah] said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. Same thing Cain did.

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

I didn't write those Mohideen. They were given LONG before I was born. So were these:

Mar 13:14 When ye shall see the abomination of desolation {without life - "He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" - Palestine denies the Son] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STANDING WHERE IT OUGHT NOT

The name Israel came from God - not men} Gen 35:10

Mat 24:21 Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. } Made up of many members 1Cr 12:12 - 1Cr 12:20 ]

Posted by: Beth

at July 2, 2005 1:08 AM

Mohideen Ibramsha

You have to admit that the pucker factor in the Moslem world right now has got to be at an all time high, somewhere around a 9 I would imagine. Moslems have to be thinking who is next, Iran, Syria? The whole world is witness to the power of the USA, we can leave what country we like and remove the ones we don’t. We barely lifted our finger and the taliban disappeared, diapers and all, Osama bin Laden now lives underground and from what I understand found Allah’s hiding place. In Iraq, Moslems blow up Moslems for the glory of gory Allah, a stupid typical barbaric Moslem tactic, kill the unarmed ones, Allah has power over them. If Mohammadanism was the fastest growing religion, it isnt anymore, Afghanistan and Iraq and Moslems themselves put an end to that nonsense...

Posted by: Bar

at July 2, 2005 2:10 AM

There is not ONE SINGLE New Testament Scripture where humans are aloud to be violent with each other - Quite the Contrary! You will not be able to present any - because there aren't any.
Beth

A Google search yielded the URL http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=jas+4:2&t=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1
In which we find the following:
===
2 Ye lust (5719), and have (5719) not: ye kill (5719), and desire to have (5719), and cannot * (5736) obtain (5629): ye fight (5736) and war (5719), yet ye have (5719) not, because ye ask (5733) not.
===
The above is James 4:2 in the New Testament. The above simply states that to war is a characteristic of being human!

What about the Old Testament? Does it recommend war? From http://www.adamkotsko.com/war-ot.htm
We find:
===
God's use of war does not appear to be a blanket approval of war as one tool among others. It is used in the judgment of sin, and only Israel, God's uniquely chosen nation, has the opportunity to avoid judgment in its use -- and that only if Israel follows a radically different code of conduct in its wars befitting its character as a radically different nation entirely reliant on God. Insofar as Israel becomes one of "the nations" and uses war as such, it heaps judgment on its own head, as do the pagan nations used by God to execute that judgment.
===

We have stated earlier, we repeat now: Muslims are the real descendants of Prophet Israel, peace be upon him, because they follow the same religion as that of Prophet Israel, peace be upon him. And when a Muslim fights, he fights with complete dependence on God Almighty (called Allah in Arabic).

We have three scriptures: Holy Torah, Holy Bible, and Holy Quran. It seems the Holy Torah and the Holy Quran approve of religious wars. If we understand James 4:2 quoted above, it also implies to engage in war in human behavior. So, those who claim that there should be no war need to evaluate their understanding.

The fact is that there is only one God Almighty; God Almighty sent Prophets, peace be upon them, to educate mankind; Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the Seal of the Prophets, peace be upon them; the Final Message given to mankind by God Almighty is the Holy Quran. So, we invite every non-Muslim to come to Islam and escape punishment from God Almighty.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha

at July 2, 2005 10:08 AM