My heart is heavy. To imagine the muslim world being worried about how the world treats them. Maybe they should do a little self examination. Nah, that isn't going to happen. I think they will find very few people caring. They have allowed their religious leaders to preach hate for the world, hide terrorist in their mosques, and spread chaos around the world, do they expect us to love them? Oh the humanity.

Posted by: Americaphile at July 23, 2005 10:54 AM

The reaction of the Muslim community to this story once again shows how hollow their 'condemnation' of the bomb attacks ring to the rest of us. Instead of giving the police the benefit of the doubt and being thankful that one 'who is not even a Muslim' is not around anymore they react with hand wringing and outrage.

Maybe this is because of the fact that they have to sit up and take notice of the fact that their little toy soldiers are going to have to deal with the real thing now and that their dispatch to their 72 raisins may in future be a little less 'heroic' and more like that of a 'trapped rabbit' as one of the commuters called it.

As for the 4 (or is it 2) who are still at large. May they live to a ripe old age, with no contact with other people allowed and only deep regret at bungling their one chance of 'glory' so badly. Someone should maybe also leave the suggestion that no self respecting raisin/virgin would give such a hopeless jihadi the time of day.

Posted by: PJS1 at July 23, 2005 10:58 AM

Their bomb-to-kill policy worries ME.
After reading the excerpt below, their feeeeelings would not be my biggest concern if I was a Brit.

"Of course, Muslims are as entitled to question or criticise the bombing campaign as are Labour MPs such as Paul Marsden or George Galloway. But their opinions call into question their very identification as British citizens. Mohammed Abdullah, a 22-year-old accountant from Luton, told The Times: "We don't perceive ourselves as British Muslims. We are Muslims who live in Britain. All Muslims in Britain view supporting the jihad as a religious duty."

Other Muslims insist these views are unrepresentative. But are they? A Sunday Times survey has found that four out of 10 British Muslims believe Osama Bin Laden is justified in mounting his war against the United States. A similar number say that Britons who choose to fight alongside the Taliban are right to do so.

In another opinion poll, conducted for the Asian radio station Sunrise, 98% of London Muslims under 45 said they would not fight for Britain, while 48% said they would take up arms for Bin Laden.

All around one hears Muslims saying the same thing: that any attack on Muslims is an attack on Islam, against which self-defence is legitimate. This easily slips into justifying violence against those trying to defeat Islamic terror. It also reveals that for these Muslims their principal allegiance is not to Britain; indeed, they present themselves as in a kind of state of war against it".

Posted by: treehugger at July 23, 2005 11:32 AM

"In another opinion poll, conducted for the Asian radio station Sunrise, 98% of London Muslims under 45 said they would not fight for Britain, while 48% said they would take up arms for Bin Laden."
--- from a posting above

Print that out. Make copies. Put one on your refrigerator door, under the strongest magnet. Send copies to your friends. Be a missionary of the counter-Jihad. Stop Da'wa in its tracks, wherever you can. Write letters to the newspaper. Find every excuse to engage people in conversation -- at the checkout-counter, at the auto supply store, at the dry cleaners, at the local takeout of anything -- and find a way (and you can always find a way) to get the conversation around to a certain "belief-system" (you won't call it a religion) and what is in that "belief-system." Don't go into a rant, don't try to impart everything you know all at once. Introduce a note of worry, a note of doubt about the official line of Blair, Bush, and company, about the "courageous Muslims who are speaking the truth abou their proud religion and history, and seizing it back from those who would hijack it for evil ends" (the ridiculous, offensive, and dangerous phrase that is contained in an article on the Op/Ed page of today's New Duranty Times, "What We Saw in London," co-written by Stephen Hadley, National Security Adviser.

Which is worse? You tell me. Is it worse if Stephen Hadley really believes this treacly nonsense, which does not correspond at all to either the theory, or practice, of Islam, or is it worse if he doesn't, but feels as a matter of policy that he, and all Western governments, must continue to lie about Islam because to tell the full truth, even though it is the Infidels who need to know that full truth if they are to make intelligent decisions about everything from immigration policy, to the continued building of mosques, to where they spend their money, to whether or not they will agree to continue to support the American presence in Iraq.

They cannot continue to be so ignorant, or to pretend to be, for we Infidels (these are our lives, our countries, our civilizations at stake, and if some of those now in positions of power lack the imagination, intelligence, and wit to figure out how to speak about things, how to present the truth, how to plan accordingly, they should get out, or be put out, of positions of responsiblity) deserve better. And so do people long dead, who left the legacy we have pout in charge of, not bloomin' idiots, perhaps, but rather, idiots for whom the bloom is off, and who are, as the facts roll in with each new attack, fading fast.

Posted by: Hugh at July 23, 2005 11:51 AM

In protest of this Western barbarity, I suggest that all Muslims leave the kafir world immediately and return to Mecca where they can register a mass-protest through the U.N. office in Riyahd.

It is clearly too dangerous for terrorists and their Islamic sympathizers to live among infidel dogs any more, especially those who are arrogant enough to defend themselves against bombing campaigns by honest jihadists.

But all Western governments should give them free one-way passage as a method of saying "We understand your worries and don't wish to inconvenience your exit.".

Bye, now.

Posted by: BigSleep at July 23, 2005 12:00 PM

Do muslims actually believe we will allow them to attack with impunity? If our lives and the lives of our families are not respected, why theirs?

They call for war... be carefull what you pray for.

Posted by: wannabersc at July 23, 2005 12:08 PM

"In another opinion poll, conducted for the Asian radio station Sunrise, 98% of London Muslims under 45 said they would not fight for Britain, while 48% said they would take up arms for Bin Laden."

Add the following fellow to Hugh's suggested mailing list:

Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain.

His email address is:

admin@mcb.org.uk

Posted by: PRCS at July 23, 2005 12:10 PM

Hugh,

Please let's have the link about Sunrise's poll.
This is vital ammo in the struggle for awareness.

Posted by: Elephant at July 23, 2005 12:15 PM

imagine the MsM putting out a story:

Exploding-jihadi-policy of islam worries entire non-muslim world

Posted by: PCKills! at July 23, 2005 12:20 PM

LONDON — Muslims gathered for afternoon prayers yesterday with renewed fears of a backlash against Britain’s Islamic community after a string of new terror attacks.

LONDON — Muslims gathered for afternoon prayers yesterday with renewed fears of a backlash (unjustified fear which is used as a ploy to further psychologically deceive people) against Britain’s Islamic community (which does not care to come against extremism nor refute violent teachings in the Koran) after a string of new terror attacks.

Posted by: Report at July 23, 2005 12:24 PM

Every Muslim in Britain should watch this video:

http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2458063&refsite=7103&realId=2458063&realId=2458063

Chris Rock: How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police

Posted by: Foehammer at July 23, 2005 12:29 PM

If Muslims are afraid they should avoid wearing heavy padded jackets in 70 degree weather. They should also stop when a law enforcement official tells them to. Muslim terrorists give no warning when they plant bombs to kill and maim in sneak attacks on civilians.Even the IRA called in warnings prior to a bombing.So I could care less if the authorities have a "shoot to kill" policy for suicide bombers. Isn't it odd that Muslims seem more concerned about the killing of a would be suicide bomber then the killing of innocent British commuters?

Posted by: Roxane at July 23, 2005 12:30 PM

They are more concerned because of one overriding fact about Muslims: their collective concern is always first and foremost the perpetuation of Islam. If they can do it by combination of terrorism, clandestine means, subterfuge, propaganda, soapbox, sermon, Al Jazeera, political lobbying, marriage, emigration, etc. then all the better.

The very minute anyone takes a stand against them, they cry foul and forget about the cause.

Islam is the Enemy. Reform or Remove It. And Shoot-to-Kill If Necessary.

Posted by: Foehammer at July 23, 2005 12:47 PM

The article is at the Sunday Times, by Melanie Phillips.

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/islam/britain-muslims.html

Posted by: treehugger at July 23, 2005 12:51 PM

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Police say the man they shot dead at a London Underground station "was not connected" with this week's attempted bombings on the city's transit system.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets," the police statement said Saturday.

During a news conference following Friday's shooting, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair said "this shooting is directly linked to the ongoing and expanding anti-terrorist operation."

The man -- whose identity has not been released -- on Friday emerged from a south London apartment building that had been under surveillance as part of the investigation into the attempted bombings Thursday.

Officers followed him to the Stockwell Underground station. The man's "clothing and suspicious behavior at the station added to their suspicions," a police statement said.

He challenged police and refused to obey orders, before he was shot and killed Friday morning, Blair said Friday.

Meanwhile, police said Saturday that a second suspect had been arrested in connection with the attempted bombings.

The man was arrested in Stockwell on Friday night by anti-terrorism officers in connection with the failed attacks, police said.

I can not blame the police in the case bearing in mind the situation.Stockwell stition is the next stop from The Oval,so the jerk should not have run,when the police demand him to to stop.
Dumb fooker is all I can say just now

Dumb fooker

Posted by: shiva at July 23, 2005 1:10 PM

This guy is another victim of the bombers in my book. These sort of mistakes will happen when the stakes are so high, get it wrong and another 50 people are dead. But mistakes happen in war.

Melanie Phillips has written another great column.

Also I expect many more bomb attacks to occur, it has not finished that is for certain. I think that Britain is re-acting as I expected and hoped, calm collected and rational, but a growing anger at these attacks, I think the Islamics have and are making a big mistake.

Posted by: Daffersd at July 23, 2005 1:22 PM

It is plainly obvious that some people in Britain lack the needed common sense to survive the "modern world". When someone points a gun at you, you either comply with his/her orders, of prepare to be shot. The guy in London who was shot the other day can be counted as lacking the necessary "smarts" for survival. Consider him as being removed from the gene pool as unfit for survival!

The Brits have managed to totally disarm their population, except (naturally) for those pacifists who use explosives to promote their faith.

I am waiting (but not holding my breath) to hear the Moslem leadership make an ABSOLUTE declaration against bombing; a declation without the use of the word "BUT", or any other such excuses. This is not a "gray area"; you are either for the bombers, or against them, and if you are not 100% against them, we can then assume you will support them, and we must do anything and everything to make sertain you cannot. If that means "preventive killing", I'd rather see it done selectively, rather than let the bombers kill at random!

Posted by: kenprice at July 23, 2005 1:42 PM

my dear muslims,

umm, yes, yes there is a shoot to kill policy.
we have asked you over and over again to help us root out these bad, bad men who so callously give your "religion' a tarnished image. unfortunately, you have deemed it unwise to help your host country, the very country that lets you live on welfare like parasites off of it's riches, from the lowest of you to your loudest bigmouthed, fatbastard, hate-spewing "holy(snort)man"
we of course respect your decision not to aid in making your host country a safer place to live, and will try to muddle on without your kind help. but, please understand, without the insight you could provide, we, in our efforts to protect you from the terrorists you claim to denounce, may make mistakes, due to our ignorant infidel nature.
should additional muslims die due to our overzealous attempts at clearing up this little unpleasantness, please be assured that we are only guilty of erring on the side of caution and will become increasingly overzealous should circumstances dictate. keeping this in mind, you may wish to explore the possibility of relocating to a less fractious locale, where you wouldn't be forced to live with the danger that being surrounded by heat-packing infidels entails.

now go f**k yourself.

regards,
an American proud of his British cousins

Posted by: t-ham at July 23, 2005 1:55 PM

That Islamic-spin is amazing,when self-professed Muslims become suicide bombers murder
non-Muslims they are denounced as not being true Muslims and acting outside the faith of Islam,YET
when a "Person" is shot by police to stop a suicide bomber we hear cries of fear and racial-profiling even though the bombers religion wasn't even revealed and has yet to be announced.
Also there was a bogus bomb-threat to a Mosque that was instantly blamed on a non-Muslim Islamophobe , I guess Muslims in Britain don't get any news from Iraq to see how Sunni and Shia
Mosques are being bombed by each other.

Gee,what are the chances that a Muslim in Britain would threaten a moderate Mosque in London just because it pretended to denounce
Al-Qaeda and Islamists like Bin Laden.

Q. Why would Imams assume the killer was a
Muslim?

ans. Because it's always a thief that is the first one to accuse others of stealing since they assume everyone else is like them,ergo,it must have been a Muslim bomber since even Muslims in London know about 99% of the worlds terrorism is done by followers of Muhammed and Allah.

Either Muslims have a serious case of paranoia and denial,or they're just plain
stupid.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 23, 2005 1:56 PM

But mistakes happen in war.

Yes and this is war. Undeclared but still deadly.

Has anybody considered that he may have been acting as a attempt at decoy? I'm not convinced that he was lilywhite and innocent. Anybody else remember the David Martin chase? Where the police shot the wrong man, but it later turned out that Martin's girlfriend was involved with this somewhat dubious person who resembled her boyfriend. There was compensation paid which in my opinion accounted for why he kept quiet about how he came to be in such a dangerous situation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/14/newsid_2530000/2530649.stm

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 23, 2005 2:01 PM

If the Islamicidists had to stop when the police yelled "Stop!", this would be a humiliating deference to the infidels. Hence, if the dead dude had a bomb under his heavy coat in 70 degree weather, he would be justified due to that humiliation. It all makes perfect sense.

Posted by: special_guest at July 23, 2005 2:19 PM

So it's paddycake Muslims want to play?

They need to stop being so completely silly. We've been a little slow on the uptake, but WE GET IT!

I'm pretty sure they won't like our version of paddycake!

Posted by: jsla at July 23, 2005 2:35 PM

I think Special is onto something here.
If the police were to pick out the muzzie and yell something like "Stop, Jihadi! Stop for the Infidel police. Yeild to the Kafir NOW!" then the true muslim will self-select by refusing defiantly, setting up a justified police response of opening fire. The only problen I see is that the command to stop must be issued quickly, so the running coward doesn't get out of pistol range.

More seriously, I suspect that the police (or the army sharpshooters in police clothing) knew exactly what they were doing. They did not set up on this guy all night and follow him without the contingency plans worked out. If they now deny that the suspect had any involvement, I think they are simply protecting their "sources and methods." Simple disinformation. Don't let the enemy know what you know or how you know it. Keep his name secret and see who starts asking about him. One great detective I know (who allegedly tracked down O.J. Simpson's hidden assets) says that sometimes you have to put a little fright in the quarry. If they begin to feel insecure, they will move, and you can see the movement, even though you would not have seen them when they were keeping quiet.
Same thing here.

Posted by: texan at July 23, 2005 3:05 PM

I've mentioned before that this killing may be portrayed as a 'summary execution' and I think that this will confirm our islamophobia in the minds of these west loving majority of muslims. How can muslims stop the bombings in light of our murderous policy?

The first thing Messers Tony and Ian Blair should do is to scrap the shoot to kill policy and begin a meaningfull dialogue with the wider muslim community.

Top of the longer term agenda should be more economic assistance. Muslims being diadvantaged in the job market due to islamophobia, should get an additional twenty pounds on their dole checks over and above what the kaffirs receive, the shahada could be made to the dole officer.

The British people have brought this hatred upon them by not understanding the needs of muslim families, which have also been neglected in the past. The British just don't understand how difficlut it is to bring up large families in a unproductive society. This is also clearly a form of islamophbia and possibly the worst of its kind. The Government should give extra child allowances to muslim families, but not in a progressive fashion. The payment should be the same as the kaffirs receive for the first two children, no in fact this part should be reduced substantially. Then for muslim families for every child born should receive double the child allowance untill the tenth child born, where upon a bonus payment will be made effectively doubling the total allowance retrospectively.

Also the goverment immigration policy is totally islamophobic by not discriminating in its intake. This racist and islamophobic stance needs to be challenged and corrected. Ninety percent of wars in the world involve muslims, therefore the intake of refugees and asylum seekers should be ninety percent muslim. There needs to be positive discrimination to address this clear imbalance, which proves Britain to be islamophobic.

Unless these measures and many others are taken immediately the muslim community cannot be held responsible for the attacks on the kaffir.

Once these (and other) measures are taken, only then can isalm live at peace with the west.

Only then will any further violence perpetrated against the kaffir will be down to a tiny minority will be nothing to do with islam.

JV

Posted by: jv at July 23, 2005 3:07 PM

Oh JV, how I pray that BlairBush doesn't read jihadwatch.org. They'd be lapping up those suggestions with a big ol' kafir tongue.

Posted by: special_guest at July 23, 2005 4:00 PM

JV:

Excuse me for being particularly blunt -- but give me an EFFEN break, ok?

"How can muslims stop the bombings in light of our murderous policy?"

*OUR* MURDEROUS POLICY!?

Muslims everywhere would use you as a posterboy for Western weakness.

Congratulations.

If the next guy explodes because the police refrain from taking appropriate measures, what will be your reaction then? That the victims deserved it because Westerners are all guilty of some sin or other?

"The British people have brought this hatred upon them by not understanding the needs of muslim families, which have also been neglected in the past."

You are obviously a troll looking for a reaction. Well, you got one.

The British (and the United States) should never have allowed the import of the twisted cult of Islam onto our shores to begin with! Blinded by or own rationalizations and decency -- things that you are acting as if do not exist, laughably -- the West has become the victim of our guests.

"Also the goverment immigration policy is totally islamophobic by not discriminating in its intake. This racist and islamophobic stance needs to be challenged and corrected. Ninety percent of wars in the world involve muslims, therefore the intake of refugees and asylum seekers should be ninety percent muslim. There needs to be positive discrimination to address this clear imbalance, which proves Britain to be islamophobic."

You are either baiting or a raving lunatic. Go back to where you came from, like perhaps the Middle East or Indonesia.

If you are a product of Western Culture, Machievelli is laughing at you from the beyond right now.

And I'm doing it here in the present.

I consider talk like yours, JV, nothing short of traitorous. Perhaps you have some Muslim friends impress with this dialogue or you yourself are Islamic, but to me you are showing yourself to be the furthest thing from rational that I have read on here in a very, very long time.

Foehammer

Posted by: Foehammer at July 23, 2005 4:20 PM

Foehammer-

I think JV was being facetious - you know, the "tongue-in-cheek" approach. Read his post again carefully.

Posted by: kafira at July 23, 2005 4:56 PM

I'm glad muslims are worried about a shoot to kill policy.

Now muslims will know what it's like to be scared.

We're in a war. The police have no choice but to do this.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 23, 2005 5:16 PM

I'm rather surprised that Ken Livingstone actually supports the police action. It's something I didn't expect.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 23, 2005 5:24 PM

By the way, I'm waiting for the first Chuck Norris type movie to come out, showing muslims as the bad guys.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 23, 2005 5:25 PM

a kink in the situation:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5162151,00.html

hrm.

Posted by: queenb at July 23, 2005 6:06 PM

Foehammer:

JV was being ironic/sarcastic or something like that. I had a smile all the while I read it. Though I understand that when one is angry, as we all are, this type of irony/sarcasm, may escape the filter.

JV posted: Only then will any further violence perpetrated against the kaffir will be down to a tiny minority have nothing to do with islam.

Terrific.

Posted by: DP111 at July 23, 2005 6:16 PM

The information about the person shot has been announced,he's a Brazilian male and was followed after leaving a suspected house that was connected to a terror cell.
They now say that he wasn't directly connected to the last failed bombing but also didn't absolve him of being a bomber , but don't let that stop Muslims from hijacking the mans pain
by claiming the Police killed him thinking he was a Muslim.
With not a word about the compassion for the relatives of the man , Muslims exploit his death and say they fear the same death from the "backlash" of the 7/7/05 bombings.

The man shot could have been one of those "Police assisted suicides" cases where
they threaten the police with a toy gun or
empty gun since they fear a violent death from suicide and would rather have a sniper take them out with one shot to the head.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 23, 2005 6:19 PM

Foehammer,

Do you know what a cuckoo is?

"Some parasites react to the behavior of their hosts, an interaction called social parasitism. More simply put a parasite might take advantage of the tendencies of a particular species for the benefit of it’s own. An example of this is the European Cuckoo. In this case the grown cuckoo destroys one of the host birds eggs and replaces it with one of it’s own. The host bird then raises the cuckoo nestling even when the cuckoo is almost too large for the nest and much bigger than the host bird. The young cuckoo, been bigger than its nest mates displaces them from the nest and becomes the sole recipient of its foster parents care. This is a case where the parasite uses the host to perform a function and making life and reproduction easier on itself."

During the grandiose scheme of building a multicultural society, many birds were allowed to settle into our nest, birds of many different colours and each singing their own different morning song, from cultures and lands far and wide. There were blackbirds, blue tits, toucans, parrots and of course a rarther dull looking chick called a cuckoo.

No one had bothered to read the nature books, afterall they were written at the time of Darwin and considered to be either out of fashion, or just too politically incorrect.

Initially its behaviour was attributed to other factors, every attempt was made to placate its character, why of course it's a bird just like all the others! So the cuckoo was fed even more by the parent bird and grew to be even larger than the host bird.

The rest as they say is nature.

The point of my original 'tongue in cheek' posting was to draw attention to the demands of the muslims, (particullay in light of Margeret Hodge's 'suggestion' about muslims should be helped with jobs), who are in fact very skillfully exploiting the situation for their own ends. The ultimate goals of the extremists is no different to that of the MCB, CAIR and the 'moderates'.

How does Blair deal with this cuckoo in our nest?

He feeds it and the more restless and violent it gets, he feeds it even more.

JV

Posted by: jv at July 23, 2005 6:28 PM

It used to be said of the Germans, before WWII, that they would either be at your feet or at your throat, depending on YOUR WILL. Methinks it is the same for the Islamonazis.
The following must be on the table:
Bombing Meccaand the House of Saud, internment and deportations.
Radicals must be hunted and either charged or killed.
If the so called moderates are unwilling to reform Islam, a religion of hate, guile and agression, then they must share the fate of their more explosive bretheren, and they must be interned.
Fellow Kuffars - at your feet or at your throat - which do you prefer ?

Posted by: dgene at July 23, 2005 6:34 PM

That's a great anology JV. I've seen shows on the cuckoo, how it sneaks an egg into the unsuspecting target bird species' nest. It hatches earlier than the other eggs, and pushes the unhatched eggs out of the nest, the same for any hatchlings. All the while working the motherbird to death demanding to be fed. And the motherbird never catches on!

Another conspiracy scenario: He was a suicide bomber and doing a dry run. He wanted to get killed and have no bomb on him. Something smells about this. Why would you have that kind of jacket on? Is London that cool this time of year? Was it all an elaborate trap plotted to draw the police into killing someone who could not be proved a suicide bomber to gain sympathy for Muslim murders? They said he was going to work. Just have to wait for the facts.

Posted by: reset at July 23, 2005 6:39 PM

The police acted reasonably in killing the man in the subway, if he indeed came out of a house that was under observation, was wearing an unseasonably bulky jacket, and refused to stop. Those responsible for his death are not the police but those who, a discrete group, either were involved in the bombing, or support it openly, or support such activities covertly, or who, while not necessarily supporting such activities, continue to mislead unwary Infidels about the reasons for such behavior by Muslims.

Posted by: Hugh at July 23, 2005 7:51 PM

JV:

Well, I apologize if irony escaped my attention, but with so many posts to roll through in any given day, on various sites, I tend to shy away from being overly sarcastic for fear of being misinterpreted.

I got caught up in my own fury when reading your previous post and didn't look for subtleties.

And I was probably still roused from just reading about the history of the Muslim occupation of Palermo, where I have relatives to this day.

Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee, too. Then things might have gotten ugly. :)

Foe

Posted by: Foehammer at July 23, 2005 8:23 PM

"Those responsible for his death are not the police but those who, a discrete group, either were involved in the bombing, or support it openly, or support such activities covertly, or who, while not necessarily supporting such activities, continue to mislead unwary Infidels about the reasons for such behavior by Muslims."

This description does not make sufficiently explicit another category of responsible Muslims: those who notice congregations of young Muslim males in their neighborhood coming in and out of some house or apartment, often at all hours, carrying suspicious boxes, known to attend mosques that every "moderate" Muslim should know are extremist, glowering with a mixture of dour disgust and suppressed lust at the uncovered shinbones or elbows of females on the street, etc. -- and who do nothing, do not go to the authorities and report such suspicious activities.

Posted by: metaxy at July 23, 2005 8:32 PM

Clearly the loyalties of Muslim communities in the UK are first and foremost with the Nation of Islam.

Their ambivalent condemnations of Muslim acts of terror, and their tolerance of extremist operating in British mosques and community centres are clear signs that loyalties are not where Blair would like us believe there are at.

The UK needs to increase the 'stress' that it put on its Muslim community to balance the stress that radical Islam is putting on them.

Up to now it has been too easy and comfortable for the UK Muslim community. Speaking out against radicalism has not had the payoff that going along with it has had. This needs to change.

The West need to up the ante.

Posted by: raven_ at July 23, 2005 8:59 PM

"The UK needs to increase the 'stress' that it put on its Muslim community..."

No: the UK needs to DEMAND (not ask) the Muslim community to root out and hand over their bad apples -- on pain of deportation and/or detention.

This demand should demand the following of all Muslims of the UK: we expect you to root out and hand over at least ten bad apples each month. If you fail to do this (even if you only hand over 9 bad apples in a given month), we will deport and/or detain a random number of Muslims each month (including Muslim community and mosque leaders).

Posted by: metaxy at July 23, 2005 9:47 PM

hand over at least ten bad apples each month

The only bad apples you'll get are the collaborators.

Anyway, glad you vented your spleen metaxy, because that's all your suggestions are worth.

Posted by: raven_ at July 23, 2005 10:04 PM

There's this movie "The Siege" featuring Denzel Washington and Bruce Willis.
Chilling reminder of how easily and quickly a democracy can be pushed over the edge by suicide bombings into taking swift, then ruthless action...

The mussis have got a lot coming onto their plate, if they don't demonstratably puke out the jihadis in their midst...

Posted by: voletti at July 23, 2005 10:23 PM

The U.K. police reversal of information about their shooting of a "wrong suspect"- a "Brazilian electrician" (named Jean Charles de Menendez) is a little too quick on the draw to be believable. (And, even if true, a troubling sign of no deeper strategic sense.)

How can anything sufficiently-exact be known about someone's motives, their entire life, their deepest beliefs, complete contacts, and real allegiances, etc. - and come to light so quickly and convincingly ?

Unless he were working (undercover) for the police, and they knew all about him through their own dossiers [not that I think this is the case, at all], there is no possible way to find out enough about any "unknown person" to exonerate them so perfectly -and so fast.

Something doesn't work with this rapid-change scenario.

But, assuming it is all completely correct, and that the "Brazilian electrician" was merely a luckless guy ...wearing suspiciously unseasonal clothing ...and who 'innocently' ran from police into a Tube line when challenged ...right in the middle of a terrorist scare about that same Tube line... then he was either fatally unrealistic, -or had something else going on (either a small time criminal, or an illegal alien worried about immigration deportation, etc.) that got him killed.

This "about-face" of the story makes the British police look like doubly-incompetent fools.

Why do they want to IMMEDIATELY portray themselves as such inept and 'trigger-happy' idiots?

Why didn't they at least wait a week, do a real and professional investigation into the "Brazilian electrician"'s life, and finally reveal their findings, and admit their "mistake"?

Then they wouldn't look like 'gung ho jerks' who not only 'jump the gun', and kill a poor schmuck who incomprehensibly runs from cops, but also an organization lacking-in-restraint and willing to hastily blurt out their fatal mistake to the world media. Without first soberly weighing the damage to morale, to their own overall anti-terrorist plan, and without seriously considering the cynical propaganda use of their deadly error by the jihadist sympathizers and world anti-Western press.

They shoot someone in the head, and immediately turn the gun on their own foot.

More will come out about this "Brazilian electrician", I feel.

The story was too pat.

Is too pat.

And needs more backround to be believable.

Posted by: BigSleep at July 23, 2005 10:42 PM

BigSleep is posing some of the right questions.
I have said elsewhere that I, too, believe that there is more to this Brazilian electrician. The immediacy of the police admissions is very suspect. To me it looks like a disinformation campaign to hide the extent of their true knowledge. They didn't set up on this guy and follow him with all that man-power without knowing something.

Let's see, does an electrician know how to wire detonation circuits?

Posted by: texan at July 23, 2005 11:51 PM

What do these innocents have to fear? Maybe they should reconsider their wardrobes or stay home until things cool off. Long robes and overcoats are rather incongruous apparel for summer, but they must maintain their pious modesty at all costs, even if it means risking their lives to ride the subway. Such courage!

Muslims must think that infidels have no survival instincts, or maybe they just can't relate to the concept of wanting to live. If that's the case, why are they concerned? They admit they love death as much as we love life. They asked for this; I hope they're so scared that they live the rest of their lives looking over their treacherous shoulders. They should be glad they're in the U.K. and not here. After the next attack here, the dreaded "backlash" won't be imaginary, and C.A.I.R.'s arrogant statements and press conferences will only add fuel to the fire.

Here's a verbatim reply from my illustrious Congressional representative to my email of about six weeks ago:

Thank you for contacting me about H.RES 288.

Islamic extremists have given the religion a bad name by misinterpreting and manipulating the teachings of the Quran. Please know that I'll work to fight these extremists and their use of terror throughout the world.

Thanks again for taking the time to get involved, and please don't hesitate to contact me again in the future.

Sincerely,

John Barrow

I am so relieved to know that my concerns are being addressed. I feel so much better. This is the standard fare I get from all of them.

Posted by: Susanp at July 24, 2005 12:28 AM

DearT-Ham, Foehammer & Hugh,

Humble thanks for your enriching responses. Continue, teach us, teach all those who read your blessed comments. I have been reading you now for some months, and you help me sleep more soundly than I would have been able to otherwise. Because I am afraid. You have helped me be a wee bit less afraid. I hear you three, strong and resolute, telling the truth, just simple, understandable truth, talking about respect and value of every human being, sans religion, ethnicity, country of origin, etc.

I am a Mother of a darling daughter, a Daughter of gentle parents, an Aunt twice over, the Wife of a handsome! man, a Sister of three wonderful brothers, a Grandmother of four lovely children.

What do you care? Thank God, a lot! Oh, I must mention, I have the most beautiful kitty, Molly, a Persian Calico mix. If allowed, I would add her photo here.

OK, now, you’re thinking, “this is weird” and so not remarkable to the context of usual response.

Think again. This is America responding. Help me to help back.

Posted by: Shoshanna at July 24, 2005 12:40 AM

Most rational, educated people would like to see a peaceful resolution to the Islamic violence in Britain and the rest of the world. Sadly however no such solution seems to be forthcoming. The problem is that the world is waiting for Muslim "moderates" to reform Islam and change its direction before it is too late, but that is not happening. The reason for this is becoming painfully obvious: Islam cannot be reformed, by moderates or any other faction. The seeds of violence are plainly written in the Quaran and the hadiths for all to read. To argue against this violence is to label oneself a non-Muslim, because to them the Quaran is the perfect word of God and cannot be changed. To even think of doing so is blasphemy and punishable by death.
Islam has declared all the world outside the house of Islam (dar-al-Islam) to be in the house of War (dar-al-Harb). To them there are no "innocents" outside of Islam, no targets that are not fair game, no bounds that may not be crossed for the glory of their God and their promised reward in the afterlife. Since "all is fair in love and war", and Islam has no love for those outside it, there is only one direction they can take. May God have mercy on them.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 24, 2005 12:57 AM

Islamic extremists have given the religion a bad name by misinterpreting and manipulating the teachings of the Quran.

shoshanna's MoC

This is another variant of the few-bad-apples argument. Don't have any doubt, the problem is not how to weed out the few bad apples in the followers of Islam, the problem IS Islam.

Islam, like racism, is a failed ideology. Politicians need to stop feeding use the dribble about moderate, law abiding Muslims and the Religion of Peace.

Islam is no more an ideology of peace than NAZI-ism is.

The fact that, in Islam, there is no separate ion of state and spiritual, disqualifies it from being considered a religion. Laws protecting religions are inappropriate. No, Islam, is a politically oriented ideology of conquest and we, and our representatives, must face up to that reality or become irrelevant.

The fact that, in Islam, there is no sepratetion of state and spiretual, disqualifies it from being considered a religion. Laws protecting religions are inappropriate. No, Islam, is a polically oriented ideology of conquest and we, and our representatives, must face up to that reality or become irrelevant.

Posted by: raven_ at July 24, 2005 1:04 AM

raven,

In our political climate, we have to use the "bad apples" paradigm. Why? Because PC Leftism control our socio-political atmosphere, and any attempt to expand that paradigm to condemn Islam as a whole will simply not be acceptable, and will be marginalized and labelled as "right-wing fanaticism" or "racism".

So I say, let's use the bad apples logic on the PC Leftists. There are two logical things we can ask them to agree with:

1) Let's agree there is only a small minority of bad apples that are deadly. The problem is that we cannot tell the difference between the minority of bad apples and the majority of good Muslims -- until after the explosions have happened, and it's too late. Therefore, logically we have to use certain law enforcement procedures that target the entire Muslim community.

2) Let's agree that even though the problem of terrorism represents a small minority of bad apples, these bad apples do grow out of Islam -- at some level, Islamic culture is helping to nourish the growth of these bad apples. Therefore, given the deadly situation we now live in, where mass-murderous explosions or chemical/biological/nuclear weapons can be used against innocent populations, let us demand of the Muslim communities the following:

a) that they clarify to their own communities why violent jihad is ALWAYS wrong -- no exceptions --, with fatwas and sermons and public meetings and education.

b) that they actively hunt down, root out and hand over their bad apples to the authorities: this will require the immediate implementation of neighborhood watchdog groups made up of Muslim citizens as well as community leaders and imams of mosques. Guidelines will be hammered out which will clarify what criteria are to be used to properly identify "bad apples" (example: any Muslim who says that violent jihad in Israel, or Iraq, or Chechnya is a good thing). Non-Muslim undercover agents will infiltrate to make sure they do it.

Posted by: metaxy at July 24, 2005 1:21 AM

The police did right.

They gave orders to stop, the guy ran. His heavy coat in warm weather could harbour bombs within. The only way to tackle a suicide bomber is a head shot, multiple shots, to be sure he can't trigger any bombs.

It's unfortunate the guy was not a terrorist.

But the order should still stand.
Shoot to kill for suicide bombers.

There is no other way of dealing with them.

Posted by: sonshiya at July 24, 2005 3:42 AM

It's shocking to hear about something like this happening where grew up
Thursday the Oval,Friday Stockwell,

Well Just for the record I grew up between these two stations,South Island Place.This area is know as London SW9 (Brixton, Stockwell, Oval)

Let us have a little look at recent history of the area,so as to understand
a bit better
[url]Brixton riot (1981) - April 11, 1981[/url]
The actual riot was unplanned, almost spontaneous. On the evening of the 10th, at around 17.15, a black youth with a knife wound was stopped by a police patrol, he was being escorted by two police officers along Railton Road towards a waiting vehicle when a large crowd intervened. The police were attacked and the struggle only ended when more police officers arrived, the youth was taken to hospital.

[url]Brixton riot (1985) - September 28, 1985 [/url]
It was sparked off by the accidental shooting by police of Mrs Cherry Groce while they were seeking her son Michael in relation to armed robbery and suspected that he was hiding in his mother's home. He was not there at the time of the shooting. Mrs Groce was paralysed below the waist by the shot.
As word of the shooting spread among the local community, groups gathered, leading to attacks on the local police station, running street battles, looting and burning.

[url]Brixton riot (1995) - December 13, 1995 [/url]
The Brixton riots of 1995 began on December 13 after the death of a 26 year old black man, Wayne Douglas in police custody. Trouble broke out after what had been a peaceful protest outside the police station where the death occurred. The riots resulted in widespread destruction to properties and vehicles in the area, with several hundred people involved. Police sealed off a two mile area around Brixton in south London.
The police statement said that Mr Douglas died after collapsing while being questioned at a local police station about a burglary. A later post-mortem revealed he had died of a heart condition.

So it is not an understatement that this is a very sensitive area,and the police are very aware that an incident like friday could lead to some big trouble.
So the police cannot afford to take chances.However so far it seems very likely that in these particular circumstances and because of the man's behaviour the police genuinely believed he posed a potential threat to themselves and other members of the public.
With innocent lives at risk, the police cannot afford to take chances with suspicious people who run away when challenged. It's easy with hindsight to accuse them of being too hasty, but haste is unavoidable when you might have a suicide bomber among dozens of people on a tube train. There's no time to interview the suspect - there's just action. If people want someone to blame for this, blame the terrorists who have made such actions necessary.
A situation like this demands firm and decisive action. It sends a message to all who are on the fringe to keep clear and for those real terrorists that there is no mercy. Inevitably, there will be mistakes but in a war this is the result of a fanatic minority trying to impose their will on all others.
The dumb fooker he had a choice - he could have stopped. Jumping over barriers to get away is not normal behaviour - sorry. I thank the police for protecting the general public from what could have been a very serious incident.
If we don't let the police do their job we may all live to regret it.

Posted by: shiva at July 24, 2005 5:12 AM

One thing that I want to know is, were the police dressed as police when they told him to stop?

If they were plain clothes policemen, maybe he thought that they were criminals who were following him?

Maybe that's why he jumped the turnstile?

I'm just trying to look at all sides.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 24, 2005 6:36 AM

hooray for the internet! it gives worthless scum like you a voice!

no wonder the west is declining.

Posted by: wooden bridge at July 24, 2005 7:17 AM

In our political climate, we have to use the "bad apples" paradigm. Why? Because PC Leftism control our socio-political atmosphere, and any attempt to expand that paradigm to condemn Islam as a whole will simply not be acceptable, and will be marginalized and labelled as "right-wing fanaticism" or "racism".

Islam is on ideology so racism does not come into it.

More importantly though is this: The main problem with Islam is not the terrorism but the fact that this ideology is incompatible with western values like Naziism is.

One by one our cities will have Islamic majorities. Council by council until we can resort to terrorism as a last gasp. Alarmist? Just have a look at the statistic and project the forward 5-10 years.

The goal must be to eradicate Islam from the western world.

Posted by: raven_ at July 24, 2005 7:23 AM

In another opinion poll, conducted for the Asian radio station Sunrise, 98% of London Muslims under 45 said they would not fight for Britain, while 48% said they would take up arms for Bin Laden.
treehugger

The article is at the Sunday Times, by Melanie Phillips.
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/islam/britain-muslims.html
treehugger

Dear treehugger,

Thanks for the link. The following is from that link:
===
The Sunday Times - London
November 4, 2001
COMMENT
Britain ignores the angry Muslims within at its peril
Melanie Phillips
===

How could you inflame the passions now in 2005 quoting from a survey of 2001? Let us not mislead each other.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 24, 2005 8:26 AM

wooden bridge:

"hooray for the internet! it gives worthless scum like you a voice!

no wonder the west is declining."

Yes, well at least most of us know how to use capitalization where appropriate, oh wielder of the sword of Anarchist Liberalism and Champion of the Western Utopian Folly for Hedonistic Personal Gain: Mr. Wooden Bridge.

I suppose that nick of yours is representative of the trolling you're doing? Troll under the wooden bridge....aren't you the clever one.

Question for everyone else: Was this one also being ironic or is it ok for me to flame him? (It's early and I'm not quite awake yet, so figured I'd at least ask after the fact.) :)

Posted by: Foehammer at July 24, 2005 9:47 AM

Foehammer
IMHO, I think you should draw him out a bit more. His post is kinda ambiguous, and maybe he's only being ironic like the other guy.
Remember, gun control means taking a good aim.

Posted by: texan at July 24, 2005 12:35 PM

raven,

"Islam is on ideology so racism does not come into it."

I know that, and you know that, but MILLIONS of our own Leftists do not know that, and we have to deal with them, we can't just dismiss them. We have to cleverly work with these irrational idiots, because their views are in control in our society and politics. Unless you have a workable plan to intern millions of Leftists (which I'd love to hear...).

Posted by: metaxy at July 24, 2005 1:02 PM

Mohideen's Gems:

"How could you inflame the passions now in 2005 quoting from a survey of 2001? Let us not mislead each other."

What has changed, Mohideen? What is different now that makes you think the Mohammedans loyalty to the UK (or any other European Nation or the US) is different?

I believe the number of Mohammedans in the West pose not only a security risk to all of us, but will inevitably make life very unpleasant.The price of security will become unbearable, to maintain the welfare system will become an impossiblity and to live in fear of Jihad is not an option. Nobody I know (other than Mohammedans) wants "to accept" Islam as a religion or fart to Mekka 5 times a day.

I further believe that it was a monumental blunder to allow Mohammedan immigration and that it has to be reversed, come hell or high water, in favor of immigrants from countries who actually do integrate, assimilate and contribute to our society instead of stealing from it and threatening our whole way of life with a barbaric and perverted Beduin-ideology invented by a lunatic in the 7th century ...

Posted by: Terminator at July 24, 2005 2:11 PM

Dirty Harry
(1971)

"Well I'm all broken up about that man's rights."

Harry: Ah Ah, I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

WHERE'S DIRTY HARRY WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

Posted by: rumoret at July 24, 2005 8:12 PM

The sheer hypocrisy of UK Muslims is breathtaking. If they want the suspicion on them to end then I suggest they hand over the new bombers. It has been 5 days now - & these men are still at large. Are they hiding, or being hidden? As sure as the currency in the UK is the English Pound (long may it continue), these men are hiding in Muslim Communities. Well, they aren't down in Chinatown are they? These attacks are radicalising the Anglo Saxon's here in a big way. Over the weekend, I have heard many, many ordinary people taking openly about how Islam & its followers are not compatible with democracy - particularly a democracy with a Monarch who is also head of the Christian Church. At last - the lion awakes.
The small victory Muslims in the UK had recently by having Sharia Banking Law incorporated into English Law is just the beginning for them. By the ballot box or by the bomb they mean to have Sharia Law installed in the UK - as we all know by any means necessary, by any means open to them.
All British people reading this - wise up & write to your MP NOW. Every letter they receive is counted as the opinions of 5,000 voters. Do it. Do it now, because the Muslim community know the game & they are playing it.

Posted by: albion at July 25, 2005 7:27 AM

If the muslims come and live in our country they should stick to our rules, and as for the muslims terrorists that were meant to be born here, they are traitors, we have looked after them and they should respect that, they want the same rights as us and they want to be classed as British citizens, the only way to become a British citizen is to start looking after Britain, not trying to wreck it. They should not be worried about the police if they have nothing to hide, but last weeks incident shows that we are prepared to fight for our country and look after the people in it, it serves as a warning to us all and though last weeks incident was tragic, it is better one innocent person dying rather than scores of innocent people dying. The policeman did what he was trained to do and in my opinion he did what he thought was best and I thank him for that.

Posted by: Mausna at July 25, 2005 9:40 AM

SO WE ARE TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY ABOUT THE BACKPACK IN THE BUSHES??

AND THE FACT THE POLICE FOLLOWED THIS GUY FROM HIS HOME OR HIDEOUT??

REMEMBER THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST USE OTHERS DUPS LIKE ANRICKIST??

NO THE POLICE DID THE RIGHT THING!!!

REMEMBER THE BOMB IN THE BUSHES?????? MAKES 5???

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM OPEN THE WORLDS EYES TO THEIR THREAT LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

PS
WHAT GOOD HAVE THE BRITS CAMRAS DONE IF THE MULSUMS WON'T TURN THEM IN??

Posted by: Catherine at July 25, 2005 10:38 PM