“Due to the blessings of jihad, America’s countdown has begun. It will declare defeat soon,” to be followed by the creation of a caliphate.

They better bring a lunch...it's going to be an all day job...

Posted by: duh_swami at July 26, 2005 7:25 AM

"...they can take my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it..."

a line from a rebuttal to a movement to restrict an individual's constitutional right to keep and bear arms

so bucko, you want to dance, do you? well now, we just happen to be a bunch of the dancin'est sonsabitches you EVER did see.

you keep listening to the idiotic intelligentsia(now there's a catchy phrase) and keep believing that they speak for the vast heartland of the West. like the old Indian tale of the blind men trying to explain what an elephant looks like, you hold the tail and think we're a little snake, oblivious to the massive presence in front of you.

Posted by: t-ham at July 26, 2005 8:17 AM

Thing is - to be a Muslim - is to want Islamic Rule and the rest is just a game.

We give them refugee status and they try to attack us.

The problem is that most people just can't believe it.

Hey! maybe we can terra-form - all that desert in Saudi Arabia and these guys can create a home land caliphate there !!

Posted by: Pass It On at July 26, 2005 9:21 AM

Daniel Pipes writes: "What the terrorists want is abundantly clear. It requires monumental denial not to acknowledge it, but we Westerners have risen to the challenge."

While not denying that a few "Westerners" may have risen to the challenge, the Governments of the Western World, with the possible exception of Russia, have not. The Western World is light years away from acknowledging the true nature of the Islamic jihad. People still believe that there is another, moderate, tolerant and benevolent Islam which we should embrace, support and promote, and perhaps even adopt, like the princes and patriarchs of Christendom did 1300 years ago.

The Westerners and their political leaders are in fact promoting, organizing and financing their own ultimate destruction.

Posted by: Osmund Bindalen at July 26, 2005 9:30 AM

I got the answer - 'Islam in Space!!'

The Kaaba in the Stars!!

Jihad Space Raiders...

Out to convert the Alien nations..

Posted by: Pass It On at July 26, 2005 10:12 AM

'Daniel Pipes writes: "What the terrorists want is abundantly clear. It requires monumental denial not to acknowledge it, but we Westerners have risen to the challenge."

While not denying that a few "Westerners" may have risen to the challenge, the Governments of the Western World, with the possible exception of Russia, have not. The Western World is light years away from acknowledging the true nature of the Islamic jihad. People still believe that there is another, moderate, tolerant and benevolent Islam which we should embrace, support and promote, and perhaps even adopt, like the princes and patriarchs of Christendom did 1300 years ago.

The Westerners and their political leaders are in fact promoting, organizing and financing their own ultimate destruction.

Posted by: Osmund Bindalen '

I think you misread the quote, Daniel said that westerners have risen to the challenge of the widespread and massive denial, and by and large he's right. Success is won by grassroots campaigns, talking to people one on one, teaching them, the more they learn the more enraged they will become, and they will (hopefully) go out and inform others, if not at least they will be more likely to learn the truth rather than what the media spoonfeeds them.

Posted by: morguerat at July 26, 2005 10:24 AM

It appears there may be a delay in establishing the caliphate - in Britain at least. It appears that a large percentage of Muslims in Britain are getting a little antsy regarding hardening British attitudes toward the the "Religion of Peace" (RoP my ass) and are considering hightailing it out of the country for friendlier places - Pakistan no doubt.

From the Guardian (hat tip to LGF):

"Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have thought about leaving Britain after the London bombings, according to a new Guardian/ICM poll."

"Nearly two-thirds of Muslims told pollsters that they had thought about their future in Britain after the attacks, with 63% saying they had considered whether they wanted to remain in the UK. Older Muslims were more uneasy about their future, with 67% of those 35 or over having contemplated their future home country compared to 61% among those 34 or under."

"Britain's Muslim population is estimated at 1.6million, with 1.1million over 18, meaning more than half a million may have considered the possibility of leaving.

One way tickets anybody?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1536222,00.html

Posted by: johnb at July 26, 2005 10:36 AM

Although loosly connected to this topic, the following article shows the conflicts within the Muslim society.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/604638.html

"These are not the only events religious adherents plotted against. The Qalqilyah municipality, which is headed by a member of Hamas, ordered that music no longer be played in the city's zoo, and also forbade operation of public water fountains, as they create sculptures of sorts, which are forbidden by religious law.

Mufti Akrameh Sabri even issued a religious edict affirming the municipality decision. What's more, religious decrees have been promulgated, to the effect that Mother's Day and religious Women's Day celebrations are undesirable new developments and an imitation of the infidels' customs.

The threats made by the radical religious advocates received barely any response from both the Palestinian Authority and the NGOs that promote culture. The only voice raised against these clergymen was that of the national poet Mahmoud Darwish, who received Amar Hassan in his office with much fanfare, and in interviews to the Palestinian press warned against Palestine becoming a facsimile of Afghanistan under the Taliban.
"

Posted by: Richard the Lionheart at July 26, 2005 10:40 AM

It is becomming imperative that we infidels learn and understand just exactly what living under islamic rule would mean for us. Even for the cowardly who would join the cult and drink the kool-aid, life under islamic rule doesn't seem worth living. The day may come when free infidels will be asked to make choices that are perceived as distasteful to some, and they should understand what the eventual consequences of making the wrong choice, or choosing not to choose would be.

Posted by: NonProphet16 at July 26, 2005 10:41 AM

Music, art, laughter and joy ... these are some of the bounties that Almighty God bestows upon His people. Satan (allah) does not bestow these things upon his people. Who would you choose as your master?

Posted by: NonProphet16 at July 26, 2005 10:43 AM

"The Western World is light years away from acknowledging the true nature of the Islamic jihad. "

From a posting above. Very much so.

Timor never registered.

Bali came and went, only the Australians remember it vaguely.
Beslan shocked the world, but that was in Russia, we didn't want to know.

Spain was a great success for the Jihad: It changed the government to a bunch of cretins who are kowtowing to the Jihadis, so much that it's sickening. They even relaxed immigration rules for Arabs and legalized illegals.

GB is quite another story: It still sees itself as the center of the world and in times of crisis dormant forces somehow rattle the windows of the 'giggling shopkeepers'.

Strangely, conservatives and lefties pulled together. It is a beginning, but not enough to evict, to intern, to deport the degenerated Jihad-freaks that have come to believe that the Kingdom is ripe for Mohammeds lunacy.

Nothing but mass-deportations will do. The sooner, the better.

Posted by: Terminator at July 26, 2005 10:44 AM

"The Qalqilyah municipality, which is headed by a member of Hamas, ordered that music no longer be played in the city's zoo, and also forbade operation of public water fountains, as they create sculptures of sorts, which are forbidden by religious law."
--- from a posting above

Music is forbidden in Islam. Tell that to those in prison contemplating joining the cult which, officially, forbids music, and whose more fanatical adherents have taken, in Algeria, to executing Rai singers (with perhaps just a bit more attention to those of Berber origin). And here we have Qalqilya, which sits on the edge of the so-called "West Bank" (Judea and Samaria), and from which it is eight miles to the Mediterranean, and with some handheld rockets you can wreak damage throughout much of central Israel.

Hamas wishes to ban -- no, has banned -- the fountains.

Now that is particularly piquant. Why? Because in the whole myth of Andalucia, recently given a booster shot by the un-scholarly scholar (and "Director of the Whitney Humanities Center" at Yale University), the careless sentimentalist who neglected even to list in her bibliography the most authoritative books on non-Muslims in Islamic Spain (such as those of Levi-Provencal and Dufourcq), Maria Rosa Menocal, in the cinema of our mind's eye those fountains play an important role.

Yes, we see them, don't we, Maimonides, and a Christian scholar, and between them the wise and tolerant Muslim scholar, as they walk form the Juderia, through narrow streets, and whitewashed walls, and the blood-red gitanillas hanging from wrought-iron balconies, and the fountains, the plash always of the fountains. Well, there are fountains in southern Spain. But they won't be there in Qalqilya, because Hamas finds them an offense against Islam. They "make music." And "making music" is bad.

One must repeat: from Persian and Indo-Mughal miniatures, to Rai music in Algeria, to those fountains that offer multum in parvo, a hint of the Guadalquivir, and the gardens, with their bulbuls, of Gulistan, or in the end, promise things even more paradisiacal, well -- they exist despite Islam, and its strictest views.

And that is why in Iran today Persian miniatures are being destroyed. That is why Rai musicians are assassinated by F.I.S. And that is why, in Qalqilya, from where much of central Israel can be threatened, that Hamas has banned not only music, but the play of water in those dangerous, dangerous fountains.

And that is why, perhaps, just as there are no Muslim composers, no Muslim painters, no Muslim scientists (beyond the handful thrown up during the first few hundred years of Muslim conquest, when the still-significant and not yet marginalized populations of Christians and Jews, even under Islamic rule, could still fructify the general intellectual activity), there is also no Bernini: no Barcaccia in the Piazza di Spagna, no Elefantino in the Piazza della Minerva, nothing. Nothing, but mosques and some calligraphy.

Hear that plash of water in distant Cordoba? If it makes music, it should be banned. This is the word of Hamas. And not only of Hamas.

Posted by: Hugh at July 26, 2005 10:58 AM

“real project is the extension of the Islamic territory across the globe, and the establishment of a worldwide ‘caliphate’ founded on Shari’a law.”
Robert

Granted that their dream is to have a worldwide Caliphate: How are they to establish it? Is it by waging war? Are they going to convert the non-Muslim to Islam at the point of the sword? Let them understand the following three Verses of the Holy Quran and desist.
===
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

3:20 So if they dispute with thee, say: “I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me.” And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: “Do ye (also) submit yourselves?” If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants.”

39:23 Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat: then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah’s praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.
===

No Muslim can overreach Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. The duty of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is to convey the Message. (We have used – is – instead of was as the current Muslims carry out the duty on behalf of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.) So, the Muslims also have to convey the Message only.

Since there is no compulsion in Islam, no one can hope to spread Islam by force. If any attempt to spread Islam by force, he / she plans to guide “such as Allah leaves to stray,” and “can have none to guide.” How would they substitute themselves in place of “none” as asserted by Allah. Thus, those who advocate the spread of Islam by force end up claiming themselves superior to Allah, which is the worst possible crime.

No global conquest. Yes, the Muslims should have the right to communicate Islam to one and all. There could be fighting to gain the right to communicate the Message. Kindly challenge those advocating global jihad with the above, until they agree that jihad is sanctioned only in self-defense or only when free communication is refused.

It is hoped that war mongers elsewhere do not enter into secret agreement with the global jihad advocates and thus perpetuate war.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 26, 2005 11:10 AM

I would liek to share this URL with all my freedom-loving friends. Its definitely worth a look.

http://www.challenging-islam.org/frontpage.htm

From the same site an excerpt from Churchill's book - a testimony to the vision and leadership of this man and how we suffer from bankruptcy of leadership in Europe - who have all facts before their noses yet fail to see it.

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

—Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

Posted by: SaveEurope at July 26, 2005 11:22 AM

It is not the time for Islam to spread itself across the globe.

The problem now - is just that its members have to realize it.

I think [back in the day] they used to - cut off a few heads - and terrorize the place and everyone would cave in and become Muslim.

Now things are a little bit different - the sword no longer rules.

It is a difficult period of adjustment - I think - for Islam.

Posted by: Pass It On at July 26, 2005 11:28 AM

Dear Mohideen

Thanks for your lovely quotes from your o so Noble Book. I for one am having trouble to swallow the lump in my throat.

Only one small problem. Over here in this cynical part of the woods we know everything about the 'law of abrogation' which is used in interpreting the Qur'an. It states simply that a later chapter supersedes an earlier one.

All of the above means that as a broad rule of thumb passages revealed in Medina carries much more weight than those revealed in Mecca.

It is therefore such a pity that your beautiful, warm, fuzzy, 'lump in the throat inducing' verses are of the former variety. On the other hand Qur'an 9:29 (Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued) is of the latter variety.

So who is the 'true Muslim', you quoting luvvie verses at us, or America's most wanted wanting to kill us?

Next time go try the local high school's 'Islamic Awareness Day'. We've been round the block a bit.

Posted by: PJS1 at July 26, 2005 11:43 AM

The author of "Imperial Hubris", "anonymous" (whose cover was blown to show that his name is Michael Scheuer) meanwhile, is still promoting the idea that the U.S. policy of inserting its economic and military presence (essentially in order to promote stability oppose terrorism) in Islamic lands is the main reason for Muslim jihadist terrorism.

He doesn't give any clue that he understands there is a geopolitical strategy behind the warriors of jihad, or that the Restored Caliphate is the aim of Imperialistic Islam.

He gives out the idea that it is primarily an internal Muslim battle against their own "police states" (Egypt, etc.) in Muslim countries.

As if their replacements (see: the disenfranchised Sharia state that almost took power in Algeria) would miraculous morph and begin to stir up a "reformation within Islam" (his words).

I'm sure that happened in Iran, right? (Oh, wait, bad analogy.)

He worked at the "Bin Laden desk" -in the CIA -for years, and still has a calamitously ahistorical and wishfully naive misunderstanding of Islam's 1350 year long effort to spread, absorb, conquer and reign, from the Phillipines to Fez, Miami to Anchorage, Montreal to La Paz.

Luckily he resigned from the intelligence services.

But, sadly, he is now promoting this theory of: "It's our fault for being involved in Islamic states, and for not getting out and letting Islam go to hell, learn what hell is like, and then battle in their own countries, moderate Muslim against extremist Muslim, for their own freedom and enlightenment".

Where the example of this ever happening is, no one has yet asked him.

Perhaps a debate on national t.v. (Fox? MSNBC? CNN?) between Mr. Spencer and "Hubris"-author Scheuer could be talked up.

Either we understand our enemy's real goal, or we continue removing tumors - in Kabul or Babylon- without grasping the radioactive source producing the apparently discrete malignancies.

And it is not "U.S. policies", but the suras, like 9:5, in the Koran.

If Israel and the U.S. were not in existence (the ultimate vision of joy for most Muslims), Spain would be their Imperialistic Islamic rational for endless war. (Reclaim al-Andalus! the cry.)

And the Koran's call to spread the 'true' faith, under the "shadow of the the sword", forever, -until there were no infidels left in power anywhere.

I'll email the relevant networks and see if such a clash of interpretations can be spurred on (and suggest everyone, who wants this essential meaning of the Islamic problem brought to the surface of the mass-media's attention, do the same).

Posted by: BigSleep at July 26, 2005 11:45 AM

Mohideen,

I read your post, most eloquent, however the last 1400 years seems to dispute your statements. Muhammod (may his memory be erased from the hearts and minds of men) left a legacy far worse than old Adolf, as the "faithfull" are still killing children for the least of offenses. More and more infidels are getting the message. You need to preach elsewhere, because your message is falling on deaf ears here. The facade of the "Religion of Peace" is in shambles,
your bretheren are going to push us past the limit one day, and on that day much of the unmah will see the light, just befor it snuffs out their existance.

Posted by: Sharku at July 26, 2005 11:48 AM

From Mohideen_Ibramsha:

Since there is no compulsion in Islam, no one can hope to spread Islam by force. If any attempt to spread Islam by force, he / she plans to guide “such as Allah leaves to stray,” and “can have none to guide.” How would they substitute themselves in place of “none” as asserted by Allah. Thus, those who advocate the spread of Islam by force end up claiming themselves superior to Allah, which is the worst possible crime.

No global conquest. Yes, the Muslims should have the right to communicate Islam to one and all. There could be fighting to gain the right to communicate the Message. Kindly challenge those advocating global jihad with the above, until they agree that jihad is sanctioned only in self-defense or only when free communication is refused.

It is hoped that war mongers elsewhere do not enter into secret agreement with the global jihad advocates and thus perpetuate war.

You really do amuse me, Mohideen.

It is the subversive, cunning warriors for Islam like yourself that I am particularly scrutinizing.

Your undoing, as for all your kind, be you true Muslims yourselves or allied apologists, will be how sadly and completely you underestimate the the West. Islamic Narcissism: The natural product of delusional adherence to a lie unsurpassed in all of history.

Thank God for little favors.

Posted by: Foehammer at July 26, 2005 11:56 AM

It would be interesting if a religious group were started that taught that the god of the univese is actually WeeWoo. And as it would happen, WeeWoo hates Islam, and anyone who kills jihadists goes straight to heaven.

Not that it would be right, mind you. (God forbid!) Just interesting.

Posted by: Menetheos at July 26, 2005 12:09 PM

The problem with Islam today - is that - they want to be backwards - and they want to make money. But the two don't go together.

So they leave their Islamic countries - which are functioning poorly – if at all like Somalia - and come to ours - then when they get here - they want to bring their backward Islamic systems - that aren't working in their own countries - to ours.

The functioning Islamic State - which is productive – is at this time – a wholly fantasy. It doesn't exist.

Just look at all the washed up - Moroccans on the Spanish shores every morning - people are that desperate to leave these Islamic States - because they don’t work.

It is like a religious communism. And its members are left saying – if we try it this way – it will work – if we try it that way - it will work. At some point – they are going to have to admit that it just does not work and abandon the idea and get along and live with everyone else.

Posted by: Pass It On at July 26, 2005 12:21 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha,

Take your taqiyya elsewhere.

We all know muslims are so devious, they even have a doctrine for deception (taqiyya), and so predatory they have a doctrine for the concealment of malevolent intentions (kitman).

We know you and your deceiving, murderous, predatory, seditious Islam. You chose the wrong crowd to fool.

Posted by: sonshiya at July 26, 2005 12:21 PM

"Since there is no compulsion in Islam, no one can hope to spread Islam by force."
-- from a posting by a Muslim above

Of course there is compulsion in Islam. For a thorough discussion of what that phrase "there is no compulsion in religion" means to Muslims, go to www.dhimmitude.org.[See especially the essay by the Iranian cleric on the meaning of that "no compulsion in religion" passage} As everyone is born a Muslim, of course, the only "compulsion" that is evident is the "compulsion" which turns those natural-born Muslims into such bad things as Christians and Jews. That's where the real "compulsion" comes in.

Now, if you had to pay the jizyah, under very specific and deliberately humiliating circumstances (no just putting the check in the mail), could not build new, or repair old, religious structures, were unable to sue Muslims at law, had to ride donkeys side-saddle and dismount whenever a Muslim came in view (no horses, the automobiles of the past), if those and many other legal, financial, and social disabilities were imposed on you, and you could only get out from under them, and from under the constant threat of Muslim physical attack, by individuals or by groups, and if those disablities had no end in sight, and if furthermore your children could under all sorts of pretexts be snatched from you and raised up as Muslims, and if you could, if you were a male, not marry a Muslim woman whereas a Muslim man could marry a non-Muslim woman, or 2, or 3 or 4 -- well, if after all that, you decided to convert to Islam, doesn't all that humiliation, that degradation, that physical insecurity amount to "compulsion"? Only someone capable of true moral idiocy would deny that.

Many Muslims have proven equal to that task.

Posted by: Hugh at July 26, 2005 1:03 PM

They are using 21st technology to return to the 7th century! Everyone should fear this - 21st century weapons with a 7th century mentality confront the West.

Posted by: peri at July 26, 2005 3:47 PM

Mohideen, we may have been born at night, but not last night! You should know better than to pull such a sophomoric prank here! Everyone knows that the false prophet abrogated certain revelations to avoid embarrassment when he couldn't remember them, or whenever it was expedient to do so. To everyone but mind-numbed muslims, Muhammad's abrogation tactics were obvious ploys to obfuscate the ridiculous contradictions throughout the Qur'an, many of which remain unexplained.

It is not universally accepted in the murky world of Islamic scholarship that the later revelations cancel out the earlier ones when they contradict each other?

Posted by: Susanp at July 26, 2005 4:08 PM

Imagine the Emperor Bin Laden, posing on a throne of the blood of Islamist terror's victims. Jizya tribute from the conquered UK will be remitted to the Emperor's treasury from the Viceroy Omar Bakri Mohammed, with George Galloway as his jester.

Here's a multicultural, sensitive to the Enemy comment from a co-worker at my workplace: "We cannot condemn their (Islamist) culture if they believe that the woman should be 'behind' the man" or "We did not ask the people of Iraq if they wanted democracy but forced it on them, now they want revenge for killing their families".

Some people just do not have a clue.

Posted by: Monk of War at July 26, 2005 4:21 PM

Of course there is compulsion in Islam. For a thorough discussion of what that phrase "there is no compulsion in religion" means to Muslims, go to www.dhimmitude.org.[See especially the essay by the Iranian cleric on the meaning of that "no compulsion in religion" passage}
Hugh

I just now visited http://www.dhimmitude.org/ . The site has hundreds of links and articles. Could you please provide the link to the essay by the Iranian cleric?

From http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_today.php we find:
===
In pre-modern times, dhimmis were judged by their own religious courts, except when a Muslim was involved; in this latter case, the Islamic law prevailed.
===

The resurgent Islam, restoring Islam to its purity, aims to implement Islam as practiced by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. If some modern day Muslim rulers had deviated from the way demonstrated by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it is between them and God Almighty on the Day of Judgment.

A believer is connected to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and his teachings; not to any who might have claimed Islamic authority afterwards. The rules promulgated by the latter day authorities must be derivable from the Holy Quran and the authentic Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Yes, in the eyes of a non-Muslim, the mistakes of the latter day Muslims would define the Islamic concepts. However, as the real Islam, the Islam practiced by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is established, these apprehensions are bound to vanish.

I have a number of Hindu friends, who have married a daughter of their own sister. However, the following Verse of the Holy Quran forbids such a marriage for the Muslim.
===
4:23 Prohibited to you (for marriage) are – your mothers, daughters, sisters; father’s sisters, mother’s sisters; brother’s daughters, sister’s daughters; foster-mothers (who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives’ mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in – no prohibition if ye have not gone in – (those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful –
===
How can the above restriction apply to a Hindu?

In an Islamic country, a non-Muslim is governed by his / her religion as long as he / she is not involved with a member of another religion. In matters involving members of more than one religion, the Islamic law prevails. This manner of treating a non-Muslim living under the Islamic state should prevail as and when the Caliphate is established. As indicated earlier, the Caliphate is not the whole world.

It is our belief that at the time of appearance of the Impostor (who falsely claims to be Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him) the religion of Islam would be practiced between Makkah and Medina only. Where is the question of the Caliphate extending all over the world?

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 26, 2005 4:38 PM

a Muslim man could marry a non-Muslim woman, or 2, or 3 or 4 –
Hugh

Is there a contradiction between the two Verses quoted below?
===
4:3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal jusrly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

24:32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
===

The Verse 4:3 was revealed after the Battle of Uhud in which many Muslim males were martyred, leaving behind a large number of widows and orphans. The women out of wedlock far out numbered the men. If the rule of one man – one woman was to be enforced, it would have resulted in undue hardship to those women who could not marry. Thus, a capable Muslim male was allowed to marry a maximum of four women and offer them a secure home. But for this law, many destitute women might have been forced to prostitution; and let us not forget Islam forbids prostitution.

The Verse 24:32 was revealed on the occasion of the scandal in which mother Aisha, Allah be pleased with her, was accused linking her with an unmarried man. This Verse indicates the necessity of ensuring the means of safe sex for as many unmarried males and females.

Where is the contradiction? Depending on the situation, the appropriate rule is applied to the benefit of the society.

Likewise, the so called Medina Verses that advocate jihad do not eliminate the Makkah Verses quoted earlier. Each has its time and place depending on the state of the society. We reassert, the Verses advocating jihad apply only when the Muslim Ummah is under attack, as now.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 26, 2005 5:05 PM

Allah is concerned with safe sex??? Well he ought to be...good for him...safe sex is one of my main concerns also. Allah and I are on the same page with that one. Maybe I'm a muslim and dont know it. Does being concerned with safe sex make one a muslim? Or do you need to convert first and then find out about safe sex. I'm a little confused about it, but next time I go to the mosque, I will ask the Imam to explain it to me...

Posted by: duh_swami at July 26, 2005 6:19 PM

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

I heard some mulsum threatened the Canandians if they don't stop messing with mulsums???

Beter get your Guns ready for hunting??

Just thinking out loud??

well 4 bombs go off in London set by mulsums??

Italy arrest 170??

2 weeks later 4 bombs set by mulsums almost go off and how many are are arrested in Englans todate??

inbetween party area evacuated and many more tarin stations ??

but the mulsums in England take to the street and protest the way mulsums are treated??

WELL ENGLAND GIVE YOUR PEOPLE GUNS AND GET THE MULSUMS WHO DON'T LIKE YOUR LAWS OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY BRITIAN GET PISSED BRING BACK BIKINIS ON BILLBOARDS!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

PS
JUST FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALMOST AWAKE??

AND WHAT WAS THAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT MULSUM WOMEN??

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”

YEA LIKE THAT POOR WOMAN WHO HAD HELP-ED THE IRAQI PEOPLE FOR SO LONG??KILLED BY ISLAMIC TERRORIST??

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

SO HOW CAN WE BELIEVE YOU??

Qur’an 66:1 “Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

AGAIN THERE IS THE TRUST FACTOR!!

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

YOU DIDN'T COUNT ON COWBOYS DID YOU THERE IS A RIGHT AND WRONG AND KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG!!!

Qur’an 9:113 “It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for the forgiveness for disbelievers, even though they be close relatives, after it is clear to them that they are the inmates of the Flaming Hell Fire.”

GUESS YOU LEFT THIS ONE OUT??

Qur’an 5:78 “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”

RIDE COWBOYS RIDE!!!

Ishaq:166 “‘You have recited to the people that which I did not bring to you from Allah, and you have said that which He did not say to you.’ The Messenger was grieved and feared Allah greatly. So Allah sent a revelation to him, consoling him and making light of the affair [of worldly bargains and Satanic indulgences]. He informed him that there had never been a prophet or messenger before who desired as he desired and wished as he wished but that Satan had cast words into his recitation, as he had interjected them on Muhammad’s tongue and into his desires.”

SO YOU FOLLOW THE FOLLOWER OF SATAN??

Qur’an 53:19 “Have you then seen or thought upon Al-Lat and Al-Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs), and considered another, the third (goddess), Manat (of the pagan deities)? What! for you sons, the male sex, and for Him, daughters, the female? Are yours the males and His the females? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!”

SO THERE IS A DIVISON??

Ishaq:91 “The Prophet explained the nature of shooting stars. ‘Allah shut off the satans by these stars which pelted them. So satans tried to steal information, listening in, mingling what they heard with conjecture and false intelligence. They conveyed it to the soothsayers.’”

SO HE WAS NOT ALL KNOWING??

Qur’an 72:3 “There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter preposterous things, atrocious lies against the Lord; We Jinn [Devils] had thought that no man or jinn would ever say anything untrue about the Lord. But there were men who took shelter with the male jinn. But they (jinn) increased them in waywardness, folly, and revolt. And surely they came to think as you thought, that the Lord would not raise up any Messenger. We jinn pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with fierce guards, stern wardens and flaming fires. We used to sit there in, hidden in observatories, trying to steal a hearing; but any who listen now will find a shooting star and a flaming fire watching him, lying in wait as an ambush for him. And we Jinn know not whether harm or evil is the intended fate of all men on earth, or whether the Lord intends to give them some guidance.”

WHO ARE THE FOOLISH BUT THOSE WHO DESTROY THE WORLD zmonster[YELLOW COWARD WHO IS CURSED] ubl[YELLOW COWARD WHO RUNS AWAY] saddam[YELLOW COWARD FOUND IN A HLE DON'T SHOOT I'M A YELLOW COWARD]

Tabari VI:107 “Satan Cast a False Qur’an Revelation on the Messenger of Allah’s Tongue.”

OH MY!!!

Qur’an 113:3 “From the mischievous evil of Darkness as it becomes intensely dark, and from the mischief of those who practice the evil of malignant witchcraft and blowing on knots, and from the mischievous evil of the envier when he covets.”

WHO IS IT WHO COVETS BUT THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST TRYING TO STEAL OTHERS LAND!!!

Qur’an 66:1 “O Prophet! Why forbid yourself that which Allah has made lawful to you? You seek to please your consorts. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Kind. Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.”

SO WOMEN DON'T TRUST THE MONSTERS WHO WOULD KILL YOUR CHILDREN!!

Qur’an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know that Allah is your Supporter. And know that one fifth of all the booty you take belongs to Allah, and to the Messenger, and for the near relatives (of the Messenger).”

SO WE GO BACK TO THE COVENT THING??

Qur’an 70:28 “Preserve their chastity except with their wives and the slave girls they possess—for which there is no blame.”

MAYBE THE REASON FOR ALL THE PHONE SEX??

Qur’an 64:14 “Believers, truly, among your wives and your children there are enemies for you: so beware of them! ... Your wealth and your children are only a trial.”

NOW WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT WOMEN AND CHILDREN??

Qur’an 64:14 “Believers, truly, among your wives and your children there are enemies for you: so beware of them! ... Your wealth and your children are only a trial.”

YEA THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT IT SAID!!!

Qur’an 8:28 “And know that your property and your children are just a temptation.”

SO THIS SAYS NOT GOOD FATHERS??

Bukhari:V4B53N374 “The Prophet said, ‘I give to the Quraysh so that they will desire Islam, for they are nearer to their life of Ignorance and it is not strong in their hearts.’”

SO LET ME GET THIS STRIEGHT BE MULSUM AND BE STUPID!!

Tabari VIII:38 “The Prophet selected for himself from among the Jewish women of the Qurayza, Rayhanah. She became his concubine. When he predeceased her, she was still in his possession. When the Messenger of Allah took her as a captive, she showed herself averse to Islam and insisted on Judaism.”

OH MY!!

Qur’an 9:3 “Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.”

SO WE AINT GOT TO FEED YOUR PEOPLE!!

Tabari VIII:16/Ishaq:454 “Soon the trial became great for the Muslims and fear intensified. One said, ‘Muhammad was promising us that we should eat up the treasures of Chosroes and Caesar, and now none of us even can go out to relieve himself!’”

CAUSE WE HAVE TAKEN THE FIGHT TO YOU!!

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight against those People of the Book [Christians and Jews] who do not follow what Allah and His Messenge acknowledge as the true religion (Islam), nor accept Our law, until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission.”

NO WAY IT IS WAR!!

Tabari I:232 “Gabriel brings to the sun a garment of luminosity from the light of Allah’s Throne according to the measure of the hours of the day. The garment is longer in the summer and shorter in the winter, and of intermediate length in autumn and spring. The sun puts on that garment as one of you here puts on his clothes.”

WHAT??

Tabari I:244 “Allah then created for the sun a chariot with 360 handholds from the luminosity of the light of the Throne and entrusted 360 of the angels inhabiting the lower heaven with the sun and its chariot, each of them gripping one of those handholds. Allah also entrusted 360 angels with the moon.”

WHICH NOW HAS AN AMERICAN FLAG ON IT!!!!

Ishaq:535 “The women began to cry after learning about Ja’far’s death. Disturbed, Muhammad told Abd-Rahman to silence them. When they wouldn’t stop wailing, Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Go and tell them to be quiet, and if they refuse throw dust in their mouths.’”

NOT A NICE GUY??

Qur’an 66:5 “Maybe, if he divorces you (all), Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you—submissive, faithful, obedient, adorers who worship, who travel, and are inclined to fasting—previously married or virgins.”

SO YOU THROW A LOT OF WOMEN AWAY??

Ishaq:311 “The Apostle saw Ummu’l when she was a baby crawling before his feet and said, ‘If she grows up, I will marry her.’ But he died before he was able to do so.”

NOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AT THE AGE OF 6YRS OLD??

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”

NOW AT THE TIME HE WAS 53YRS OLD NOW IN AMERICA WE PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL WHO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS!!

Bukhari:V9B87N139-40 “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, ‘You were shown to me twice in my dreams [a.k.a. sexual fantasies]. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.”’”

OH MY??

Tabari IX:139 “Layla approached the Prophet while his back was to the sun and clapped him on his shoulder. He asked her who it was and she replied, ‘I am the daughter of one who competes with the wind. I am Layla. I have come to offer myself to you.’ He replied, ‘I accept.’” [Layla shared her story with her parents.] “They said, ‘What a bad thing you have done! You are a self-respecting girl, but the Prophet is a womanizer.’”

OH MY!!!

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

NOT A GOOD THING AND I BELIEVE THEY DO THIS TODAY!!!

Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females…. These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”

SO A WOMAN IS ONLY HALF THAT OF A MAN??

Qur’an 4:43 “Believers, approach not prayers with a mind befogged or intoxicated until you understand what you utter. Nor when you are polluted, until after you have bathed. If you are ill, or on a journey, or come from answering the call of nature, or you have touched a woman, and you find no water, then take for yourselves clean dirt, and rub your faces and hands. Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.” [The Qur’an claims women are unclean and polluted—worse than dirt.]

SO WOMEN ARE DIRT??

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

WONDER WHAT THE NOW GANG HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS??

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: never trust a woman.”

WHAT WERE YOU SAYING

Posted by: Catherine at July 26, 2005 7:15 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha said:

Yes, in the eyes of a non-Muslim, the mistakes of the latter day Muslims would define the Islamic concepts. However, as the real Islam, the Islam practiced by Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, is established, these apprehensions are bound to vanish.

"Real Islam" as in what the Taliban believed they were practicing? Nice job they did during the 10 years they ruled Afghanistan.

This is how what you just wrote appears in the eyes of THIS non-Muslim:

Conclusion to this non-Muslim: Islam can't be the "perfect way" it claims itself to be.

So in the eyes of you and your fellow Muslims, how do you reconcile that Islamic societies have been slowly degrading over the years? Even if you blame colonialism, exploitation by the West, or whatever, this only exposes Islam's weakness and impotence in the face of adversity from the non-Islamic.

In the eyes of this non-Muslim, it explains quite understandably the cognitive dissonance and frustration of Muslims witnessing non-Muslim societies succeed remarkably well without Islam, while countries trying to practice some form of Islam in their governments are drowning. "Can't be", I hear them muttering..."it's not supposed to be this way". And so, some are frustrated to the point that they'll whatever they can, using even terrorism, to put non-Islamic societies in their "rightful" place and show that Allah truly does not smile on their "ungodly" ways.

Posted by: yadayada at July 26, 2005 8:01 PM

What is safe sex for muslims?

Is that intercourse with someone who has taken off their exposive device?

Posted by: pismopal at July 26, 2005 10:35 PM

Sorry ..explosive device. I had a Martini at dinner.

Posted by: pismopal at July 26, 2005 10:37 PM

Mohideen Ibramsha, translate your screen name into English please, Deen means the religion or faith as in mujahideen or soldiers (fighters) of the faith, is Mohideen a variation of Mujahideen,and Ibramsha seems to be derived from Ibraham.

Anyway please desist from your monotous nonsensical Islamic Saluations, I tire of the saws, swts and pbuh's, they are merely ritual farces and impress no one not even an Al Ilah, the Chief Moon God Hubal or Ubal as in Ubal Qassim aka the Praised one.

I guess you missed the responses of the posters here, this forum is wise to taqiyya, kitman, and the associated sophistry, rationalizations of Muslims.

A waste of your time,just being friendly. for my part I take notice and exception to the following by you

No global conquest. Yes, the Muslims should have the right to communicate Islam to one and all. There could be fighting to gain the right to communicate the Message. Kindly challenge those advocating global jihad with the above, until they agree that jihad is sanctioned only in self-defense or only when free communication is refused.

It is hoped that war mongers elsewhere do not enter into secret agreement with the global jihad advocates and thus perpetuate war.

I'm surprised that no one else picked up on the part that I embolded. Jihad is sanctioned when Muslims are not permitted to proslytize, make their Dawah to Islam, and thus any act of violence (Jihad) can thus be justified, because anything other than total embrace and submission to Islam is considered to be an act of aggression by the kufr.

And how cute the last sentence, how sly, are you perhaps a Malaysian. This is conspiracy theory 101, the distracting ruse that Osama bin Laden and Muslim Brotherhood are somehow agents of the MOSSAD, CIA, Neo cons. I see that POS bandied about many times a day on another forum, the construct of Muslims, Fascists and Left Wingers, the first two KNOW that Muslims commit this acts in the struggle for Allah (Jihad), they celebrate the acts, then deny that Muslims are responsible, the later appear to believe sincerely that the acts are either false flag ops by the conspiratorial powers that be, or justified by the actions of so called Imperialists.

Muslims blame their problems on everyone except themselves and their defunct and dysfunctional ideology.

Muslim countries are poor, why that's the fault of the colonial west and corrupt leaders, but never the fault of Islam. 1350 years of corrupt leadership, a 1350 year headstart, supposedly, given that Muslims believe that the west owes everything to Islam, it's philosophy and science (pshaw but that's another subject).

None of your rationalizations and excuses can stand up when it is noticed that Germany and Japan were bombed into the stone age in 1945 and look at them now, but there is no Muslim country that ranks in the top 30 of wealthy countries, despite their oil wealth, 2/3'rds of the worlds poorest people live in Muslim countries, all Arab countries combined, subtracting out oil exports, produce the quantity of exports as tiny Finland. Spain translates more books into Spanish in one year, than have been translated into Arab by Muslim countries in it's entire history.
Even primitive tribes in the Amazons treat their women better than do Muslims.

You and the rest of the worlds Muslims should be chagrined, mortified and horrified by your ideology, not boast of it. It is even more poorly performing than the communism of the USSR and as horrible and inhumane as the fascism of Hitler.

Posted by: Giaour at July 27, 2005 12:46 AM

We reassert, the Verses advocating jihad apply only when the Muslim Ummah is under attack, as now. Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsh

The Ummah is under attack? Where, when, by who and how, or do you mean that resistance to Dawah, to Jihad to force to terrorism is considered an attack on the Moslemah (worldwide Ummah).

Ah but you muslims delight in playing victim and the persecuted. Iraq had a secular dictator, an apostate which was invaded (wrongly and on false pretenses admittedly) but one who murdered his own Muslim people (Shi'a and Kurds, but I guess they don't count because the first are mushrik and the later aren't Arabs), and you consider the moslemah to be under attack.

The kufr get outraged at the arrogance and atrocity committed by Muslims who struggle in the way of allah (Jihad) and you consider it to be an attack on Islam.

With thinking like that, you are intellectualizing and rationalizing your violence prone ideology and the Jihad.

Here's how this kaffir assesses you and other Muslims, and this kaffir is a liberal atheist sometimes left, sometimes right. This kaffir FEARS Islam, because this kaffir knows the special treatment that Islam and Muslims reserve for him.

Muslims delight in playing the victim role, and they delight in "suffering", and the victim role is merely a tool by which to manipulate the feckless Christianized West, a west that is prone to being manipulated by guilt, and guilt is something that is alien to the soul of the Muslim.

Of guilt he knows nothing, because all is pre ordained, all is the will of Allah, allah gets all of the blame, but Muslims can't blame Allah, so Muslims suffer for being Muslim and sufferage needs company, it is no fun to "suffer alone".

Maya Angelou wrote in her autobiography: "Oh, the holiness of always being the injured party. The historically oppressed can find not only sanctity but safety in the state of victimization." Once you have acquired this status, you can do no wrong, or the wrong that you do can always be excused because you are, after all, one of the oppressed.

Play your flute somewhere else, this atheistic, irreverent unbeliever sees through you and your pathetic attempts at intimidation, guilt and rationalization.

And spare me Qur'anic quotes, spare me the pbuhs and the other farce that is part of Islam. Bible Quotes, Qur'anic quotes are meaningless to an unbeliever all exegesis is spin, and it takes circular reasoning to believe in the Qur'an.

Qur'an is word of Allah because it says so in the Qur'an is the word of Allah because it says so in the Qur'an.. This kaffir cannot accept as an equal, as a sentient being, as honest anyone who of necessity resorts to circular reasoning.

Posted by: Giaour at July 27, 2005 1:14 AM

Mohideen Ibramsha.

Piss on him...

Posted by: Terminator at July 27, 2005 4:25 AM

Mohideen Ibramsha.

Piss on him...

Posted by: Terminator at July 27, 2005 4:26 AM

So, many British Muslims have considered leaving the UK since 7/7. No shit, Sherlock! There has been no backlash here - a few minor incidents, thats all. But the Muslim community KNOW what is before us now, because they KNOW that they cannot stop this Jihad - it is their duty, all the recent polls tell us that the support for Jihad in the UK is widespread. Soon enough we will be hit again - maybe harder, maybe with a homemade WMD. Then the gloves of civility will come off. Then there will be no room for bleeding heart multiculturalist's defending what they clearly do not understand. Then the aerospace industry in the UK will get a much needed boost - creating enough airliners to ship 1.6 million back into the arms of Allah, where they will be free to fight amongst themselves with regards to which interpretation of their holy book is correct.

Posted by: albion at July 27, 2005 6:32 AM

Dear Hugh,
Please give the link to the article by the Iranian cleric. I would like to respond after reading that article.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 27, 2005 6:53 AM

Invest in container ships now! Let the deportations begin!

Posted by: Terminator at July 27, 2005 6:54 AM

Muhammad Ibrahim (or whatever your name is) I don't have enough saliva to spit whenever I see the word "Islam" or "Jihad" or "Muhammed" or "piss on him"- It is just beyond me that
-Anyone- this day and age, (this is the year 2005!!!)
can claim that a 7th century camel-riding, goatfuckin' carawan raider terrorist, murderer, child-molester should be of any significance at all.

Please understand:

There is no place in this world for Arabian fairytales any more!

You can continue to murder us, but we will have you fried, boiled and roasted, any which way you like to make sure you will disappear from the face of the earth...

Discontinue your agenda. Lead a good life free of BS and Jihad ideology, free of Islamic indoctrination: Become part of humanity!

We will not 'revert', we will not put up with your crap and we will eat you for breakfast and s*#t you out before lunch if you continue!

You have been warned: Take it to your mufti and tell him I told you so!

Posted by: Terminator at July 27, 2005 7:18 AM

Mr. Hugh must be preoccupied with other responsibilities and has possibly not read my request for the link. A google search on – “no compulsion in religion” dhimmitude – gave a link. We hope this is the sought after link. From http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000838.php we find:
===
Take, for example, this excerpt from a lecture from Iran available now at an Islamic website, explaining the marvelous Qur'anic verse of tolerance "there is no compulsion in religion" (Sura 2:256) and some related verses. (Thanks to Nancy Block).
There is no place for the use of compulsion in religion, no one must be obliged to accept the religion of Islam. . . . Whoever wants to believe will believe, and whoever wants to be a kafir [unbeliever] will be a kafir. So this verse has also stated that faith and rejection, iman and kufr, can only be chosen by oneself, they cannot be forced upon one by others. So Islam does not say that others must be forced into Islam; that if they become Muslims, well and good, and if they do not, they are to be killed, that the choice is theirs. Islam says that whoever wants to believe will believe, and whoever does not want to, will not.
===

The Islamic website referred to gives the link, http://www.al-islam.org/short/jihad/2.htm . In this web page, the following is the discussion on “No Compulsion in Religion.” We quote the whole section below:
===
No Compulsion in Religion
In the Quran we have a group of verses which specify that religion is to be accepted freely and cannot be forced upon someone and (1)this confirms what we have been saying namely that in Islam no one can be coerced, be told either to become Muslims or die. These verses illuminate those unconditional verses in a different way.

One is a part of Ayatul-kursi (2:255-257) and is well-known;
«La ikraha fid-din. Qat-tabayanar-rushdo min al-ghayy.»
«There is no compulsion in religion, for the truth has been made manifest from the false» (2:255)

Which means that we must explain clearly the right path to people; its own reality, is manifest. (2)There is no place for the use of compulsion in religion, no one must be obliged to accept the religion of Islam. This verse is explicit in its meaning. In the Quranic commentaries it is written that an Ansari who had previously been a polytheist had two sons who had converted to Christianity. These two sons had become fascinated by Christianity and very devoted to it, but their father was now a Muslim and upset that his sons had become Christians. He went to the Holy Prophet and said to him: "Rasula-lah! What can I do to these sons of mine who have become Christians? Whatever I have tried, still they do not accept Islam. Do you give me permission to force them to leave their religion and become Muslims?" (3)The Prophet said: "No. La ikraha fid-din, there is no compulsion in religion."

About the circumstances in which this verse was revealed, it is also written that there were two tribes, the Aws and the Khazraj, who were living in Medina, and who were the original inhabitants of Medina. At the dawn of Islam they were living there together with several large Jewish tribes who had come to Medina at a later period. One was the tribe, Bani Nazil, and another was the Bani Qoraizeh, while there was yet another large tribe of Jews that lived on the fringes of the city.

The Jews, having Judaism as their religion and having also a holy book, came to be more or less considered as the learned of that society, while, amongst the original inhabitants of Medina, who were polytheists and generally illiterate, there had newly come into existence a small group also able to read and write. The Jews, as a result of their superior culture and the wide dimension of their thoughts, exercised quite an influence on this group. Thus, despite the fact that the religion of the Aws and Khazraj was different from that of the Jews, nevertheless they allowed themselves to be influenced by Jewish ideas. As a result, they would sometimes send their children to the Jews to be educated, and while they were among the Jews, the children would once in a while renounce their pagan religion of polytheism and convert to Judaism. Thus, when the Holy Prophet entered Medina, a group of these boys from that city were being trained by the Jews and had chosen for themselves the Jewish religion, which some of them chose not to renounce. The parents of these children became Muslims, yet the children did not give up their new religion Judaism. And when it was settled that the Jews should leave Medina (as a punishment for the chaos they had instigated), those children also left with their fellow Jews. Their fathers came to the Holy Prophet asking him for permission for them to separate their children from the Jews, to force them to relinquish Judaism and to become Muslims; permission which the Holy Prophet did not give. (4)They said: "O Rasula-lah! Allow us to force them to leave their religion and embrace Islam." The Holy Prophet told them: "No. Now that they have chosen to go with the Jews, let them go with them." And the commentators say that it was then that the verse:
«La ikraha fid-din. Qat-tabayanar-rushdo min al-ghayy» (2:255)
was revealed.

Another famous verse is:
«And call to the way of your Lord (Rabb) with the judgment and beautiful admonitions, and dispute with them with that which is beautiful...» (16:125)
(5)Invite people to the path of your Rabba. With what? With force of sword? No. With beautiful admonitions and advice.
«And dispute with them with that which is beautiful... » (16:125)
With those who dispute with us, we must also dispute, beautifully. This verse has introduced clearly the way for Islam to be embraced.

In another verse we are told:
«The truth is from your Rabba, so whoever has the will so he must reject...» (18:29)
Whoever wants to believe will believe, and whoever wants to be a kafir will be a kafir. So this verse has also stated that faith and rejection, iman and kufr, can only be chosen by oneself, they cannot be forced upon one by others. (6)So Islam does not say that others must be forced into Islam; that if they become Muslims, well and good, and if they do not, they are to be killed, that the choice is theirs. Islam says that whoever wants to believe will believe, and whoever does not want to, will not.

There is also this verse:
«And if your Rabb willed all the earth would have believed, in total, will you then compel them to be believers.» (10:99)
The verse is addressed to the Prophet. The Holy Prophet really loved the people and wanted them to be true believers. (7)The Quran says that the use of force in the matter of belief is meaningless. If force was valid, God Himself, with His own Power of creation would have made believers of all the people, but belief is a thing that people must choose for themselves. God with all His Powers of creation and compulsion has not forced mankind to be true believers and has given them the free will to choose. Thus, for the same reason the Prophet also was to let them choose for themselves. He whose heart has the desire will become a good believer, and he whose heart does not want to, will not.

Another verse addressed to the Prophet says:
«Seemingly you will grieve yourself to death that they do not become good believers.» (26: 3)
«O Prophet! it is as if you intend to kill yourself because they have not believed as if you want to destroy yourself. Do not be so full of grief for their sakes. We, with Our Power of Creation and Might, if we wanted to force the people to belief we could easily have done so. If we willed it, we could send down the sky a sign to overshadow their neck, for them to be submissive» (26:4)

Here God says that if He wanted to send down from the sky a sign, an affliction, and tell the people that they must either become true believers or be destroyed by that affliction, all the people under compulsion would become believers, but He does not do so because He wants the people to choose for themselves.

These verses further clarify the idea of jihad in Islam and make clear that jihad in Islam is not that which some self-interested parties have said it is. (8)These verses clarify that Islam's aim is not compulsion; that it does not command Muslims to raise the sword over the head of whoever is not a Muslim and offer the simple choice of Islam or death; that this is not the purpose of jihad.
===

In the above we have highlighted 8 occasions in bold. All except (6) says there could be no compulsion; the sword cannot be used to force someone to Islam. Can a person who says in 7 places not to use force, imply as in (6): either become a Muslim or die?

To us, (6) has a single error of omission. It should have been:
===
(6)So Islam does not say that others must be forced into Islam; that if they become Muslims, well and good, and if they do not, they are not to be killed, that the choice is theirs. Islam says that whoever wants to believe will believe, and whoever does not want to, will not.
===

What a pity, a single slip has been magnified to cause so much of confusion. Can we say, “There is no compulsion in Islam?”

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 27, 2005 11:02 AM

From Mohideen Ibramsha:

It is our belief that at the time of appearance of the Impostor (who falsely claims to be Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him) the religion of Islam would be practiced between Makkah and Medina only. Where is the question of the Caliphate extending all over the world?

And your Caligula of the Desert, Muhammad, constructed a false cult that you are trying to intimate has some air of legitimacy by such blasphemous utterances as the one above?

I would have you know that there are elements out in this world that will not rest until this lie is corrected, this plague upon humanity burned out.

Your continued attempts at intellectualizing such a doppleganger of an ideology sickens me, but it also reaffirms my own conviction: I will see your false god's cult wiped from the Earth one day, Mohideen Ibramsha. I promise you and yours.

Posted by: Foehammer at July 27, 2005 11:56 AM

Mohideen Ibramsa, in selectively quoting verses of the Koran which seem to point to Islam as being a peaceful religion, is practicing the well known art of taqiya, i.e. disinformation (for more details on taqiya have a look at: Islamic art of Taqiya).

What Ibramsa fails to mention is that Muhammad made these conciliatory sayings in the early stages of his exploits, i.e. when he was still weak and sought a bigger following. The moment Muhammad started winning, all these old peaceful verses were overthrown by new extremely uncompromising verses which called for conversion of everyone at the point of the sword. Muhammad himself took part quite happily in the slaughter and raping of many innocents. To those seeking more details please have a look at the following site:
Islam Undressed

Posted by: Razdan at July 27, 2005 3:55 PM

Here are more details on the principle of abrogation within Islam; i.e. where the older verses such as 'there is no compulsion in religion ' etc. are to be replaced by the newer verses such as: sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: “For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land”

Statements from Islamic theologians profess that the Qur’an is the immutable and unalterable word of Allah, but such statements should not be taken literally, as what is really meant (and understood by Muslims) is; “passages that have not been abrogated in the Qur’an are the immutable and unalterable word of Allah”. Understanding the application of Abrogation as it is used in interpreting the Qur’an is critical to this study. This unusual application is an important principal and facet of Islamic studies. We must start with the Qur’an because it is one of the foundations of Islam. Islam is built upon the Qur’an and "Sunnah", or lifestyle of Muhammad. Many Western readers will probably be inclined to apply traditional methods of logic and study of Biblical scriptures to their study of the Qur’an. They will be tempted to take various Qur’anic verses at face value, mistakenly thinking that all the verses in the Qur’an are applicable today. They may reason that since the Qur’an in one place says, "there is no compulsion in religion"; it must mean that Muslims are not to force people into Islam. This approach, however, is erroneous. One of the odd facets of the Qur’an is that some verses "abrogate" other verses, or in other words, they cancel them, rendering them null and void and no longer applicable.

"Abrogation" means the canceling or replacement of one Qur’anic passage by another. It seems that as circumstances changed during the 23-year period that Muhammad dictated the Qur’an, the directions and precepts found therein sometimes changed to accommodate new and changing political and military realities, sometimes quite dramatically. Thus, the Qur’an abrogates or cancels itself in various passages and presents seemingly conflicting statements. Muslims do not view this sort of abrogation as a contradiction, but rather, as improvements to better suit varying circumstances or needs, or to fit Muhammad’s religious concepts. For example, many Islamic scholars consider that the verse reference above "there is no compulsion in religion", found in 2:256, has been abrogated by the passage found in 9:5, (more on this later). This is widely understood because the more tolerant verse in chapter 2 was spoken about 7 - 8 years earlier than the one spoken in Chapter 9.

The "Dictionary of Qur’anic Terms and Concepts", pages 5 and 6 [1] state: "Qur’anic injunctions themselves may be abrogated, as has happened in a few cases. An example of this abrogation is 24:2 which abrogates the punishment of adultery, (q.v.) stated in 4:15-16. A study of the Qur’an shows first, that only a limited number of Qur’anic verses have been abrogated, and second, that the abrogation pertains to legal and practical matters only, and not to matters of doctrine and belief."

In "Islam: Muhammad and His Religion", page 66,[2] the great Islamic scholar Arthur Jeffery wrote: "The Qur’an is unique among sacred scriptures in teaching a doctrine of abrogation according to which later pronouncements of the Prophet abrogate, i.e.: declare null and void, his earlier pronouncements. The importance of knowing which verses abrogate others has given rise to the Qur’anic science known as "Nasikh wa Mansukh", i.e.: "the Abrogators and the Abrogated"."

The Encyclopedia of Islam, [3], states on abrogation:

Rather than attempting to explain away the inconsistencies in passages giving regulations for the Muslim community, Kuran scholars and jurists came to acknowledge the differences, while arguing that the latest verse on any subject "abrogated" all earlier verses that contradicted it. A classic example involves the Kuranic teaching or regulation on drinking wine, where V, 90, which has a strong statement against the practice, came to be interpreted as a prohibition, abrogating II, 219, and IV, 43, which appear to allow it.

Therefore, because of the changing circumstances in Muhammad’s time, various Qur’anic passages are recognized as having been abrogated, and it is normal that some Islamic doctrine changes over time. As such, rules that were once correctly applied to one set of circumstances, may not necessarily apply to a different reality at a later date. This concept is unusual by Western religious standards in its scope, and there are even minor disagreements within Islam regarding which teaching or doctrine abrogates another. In general, Muslims recognize more recent passages and writings as the most applicable, abrogating earlier references on the same subject matter. Therefore, when discussing Islam and Jihad, what must be considered most applicable are Muhammad’s final teachings and commands, especially what his last wishes and instructions were regarding Jihad and violence. From the viewpoint of the non-Muslim world, we must know which Qur’anic passages are still in force today for the Muslim community, and which are not. Earlier statements related to peace may or may not have been abrogated by later statements related to violence, or visa versa. We must carefully examine the context of the texts to know which Jihadic directions are acceptable and in force today.

The revered work "al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) deals in great detail with many subject matters addressed in the Qur’an wherein there appears to be some conflict or contradiction. The book goes through every sura (chapter), pointing out in full detail every verse which has been canceled, and the verse(s) which replace it. The author notes that out of 114 suras, there are only 43 which were not affected by this concept. As an example of the scope of abrogation in the Qur’an: there are 125 versus that call for tolerance and patience which have been canceled and replaced by sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: “For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land”.

[See: Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986 p.27]

Muslim activists universally fail to reveal to Westerners this major doctrine, hiding the fact that earlier conciliatory passages have been rendered null and void for over 1300 years. When Westerners discover it on their own they complain we misinterpret such writings or misapply their impact. Muslim promoters prefer to polish Islam's image by quoting the earlier abrogated Meccan passages that call for patience and forbearance. Spokespersons hide or omit Medinan passages that clearly call for killing and maiming. When hearing people explain Islam claiming the earlier more peaceful verses are dominant in Islamic philosophy, one must judge between two options; Either the presenter is completely ignorant of genuine Islamic doctrine, or he is practicing officially sanctioned Islamic deceit.

Because opinions with regard to proper conduct between believers and non-believers varies widely, the question of which Qur’anic verses are ‘alive’ and being applied today, is critical to understanding ‘Real Islam’, and potentially to our own survival. Ibn Warraq summarizes the Muslim concept of abrogation as follows:

“Contradictions do abound in the Koran, and the early Muslims were perfectly well aware of them; indeed they devised the science of abrogation to deal with them. It is a very convenient doctrine that, as one Christian unkindly put it, ‘fell in with that law of expediency which appears to be the salient feature in Muhammad’s prophetic career’. According to this doctrine, certain passages of the Koran are abrogated by verses revealed afterward, with a different or contrary meaning. This was supposedly taught by Muhammad himself, at Sura 2, verse 105: 'Whatever verses we cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like.' …Now we can see how useful and convenient the doctrine of abrogation is in bailing scholars out of difficulties- though, of course, it does pose problems for apologists of Islam, since all the passages preaching tolerance are found in Meccan (i.e., early suras), and all the passages recommending killing, decapitating and maiming, the so-called Sword Verses are Medinan (i.e., later); ‘tolerance’ has been abrogated by ‘intolerance’. For, the famous Sword verse, Sura 9, verse 5, 'Slay the idolaters wherever you find them,' is claimed to have canceled 124 verses that promote tolerance and patience.” [4]

Posted by: Razdan at July 27, 2005 4:07 PM

For, the famous Sword verse, Sura 9, verse 5, 'Slay the idolaters wherever you find them,' is claimed to have canceled 124 verses that promote tolerance and patience.”
Razdan

The fact that one Verse abrogates 124 Verses should have raised warning signals. The criterion for abrogation is wrong. God willing, we hope to discuss this aspect later.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 27, 2005 11:17 PM

Mohideen, while you may say that the criteria for abrogation is wrong... this goes against the generally agreed views of the Islamic experts as well as the views of common muslims. Even Muhammad used the principle of abrogation when he claimed that some of his earlier verses were from Satan (hence the Satanic verses).

In any case, how can you rever a man like Muhammad who was nothing but a murderous pedophile, who had no qualms about getting a 100 year old man and a young woman with a baby killed cold-bloodedly just because they happened to disagree with him? Here are some of the crimes Muhhamad himself committed:

1) The killing of Abu Afak.
2) The killing of Asma Marwan.
3) Attack upon the Banu Qaynuqa Jews.
4) The killing of Kab Ashraf.
5) The killing of Ibn Sunayna.
6) Attack against the Banu Nadir Jews.
7) The killing of the Shepherd.
8) Massacre of the Qurayza Jews.
9) The torture killing of Kinana.
10) The killing of a slave Wife and Mother.
11) The slaying of an old woman from Fazara.
12) The killing of Abdullah Khatal and his Daughter.
13) The attack upon Tabuk

I urge you, and anyone who really is interested in knowing the truth behind Islam to browse the following link: Islam Undressed

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 8:03 AM

According to this doctrine, certain passages of the Koran are abrogated by verses revealed afterward, with a different or contrary meaning. This was supposedly taught by Muhammad himself, at Sura 2, verse 105: 'Whatever verses we cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like.'
Razdan

There is a slight difference; in the Holy Quran translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, approved by the International Fiqh Academy as the most authentic translation, the Verse is 2:106. Quoting the Verse, we have:
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2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things.
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Who has the power to abrogate? It is God Almighty alone; even Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, has no such authority! How are we to accept the following?
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The Encyclopedia of Islam, [3], states on abrogation:
Rather than attempting to explain away the inconsistencies in passages giving regulations for the Muslim community, Kuran scholars and jurists came to acknowledge the differences, while arguing that the latest verse on any subject "abrogated" all earlier verses that contradicted it.
Razdan
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Whoever had decided on the above abrogation has acted as God Almighty, usurping the power of abrogation that belongs to God Almighty alone. In our opinion, they had committed the worst possible sin. There could be no inconsistency in the Holy Quran by virtue of 39:23 quoted below.
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39:23 Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat: then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah’s praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.
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There is absolutely no inconsistency in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah. The rule of consistency controls and guides the interpretation of the Holy Quran and the Sunnah. What a pity, the laziness of some so called authorities had resulted in claiming that the Holy Quran has inconsistencies.

The following Tradition, numbered 509, Volume 6 of Sahih Al-Bukhari throws some light on the production of the very first Holy Quran as a Book. Quoting we have:
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Narrated Zaid bin Thabit
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: 'Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project." 'Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah if they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is: "Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty ... (till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129). Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.
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How did Zaid bin Thabit arrange the different Verses? Who gave him the correct sequence? The answer is found in Tradition numbered 520 in Volume 6 of Sahih Al-Bukhari quoted below:
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Narrated Abu Huraira
Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet used to stay in I'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I'tikaf for twenty days.
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The sequence of the Verses were dictated to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, by the angel Gabriel who brought the Divine inspiration to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, from time to time during the month of Ramadan. So, the sequence was as given by God Almighty. It is important to notice that the sequence is not chronological.

The Tradition numbered 520 quoted above destroys the argument of abrogation used to arbitrarily cancel some Verses based on some other Verse(s). During the last Ramadan, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, stayed in Itikaf for twenty days. Which Muslim stays in Itikaf for twenty days now? All over the Muslim world, the Itikaf is simply the last ten days of the month of Ramadan. No abrogation of the Verses in the Holy Quran. There is purpose behind every Verse. The interpreter needs to work to give the correct explanation ensuring the consistency with the rest of the Holy Quran. Just because the past interpreters took their life easy in no way makes the Holy Quran inconsistent.

God willing, the issues already raised would be dealt with in due course. Allah knows best.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 28, 2005 9:36 AM

Mohideen, if as you say only God has the right to decide which verses of the Koran can be abrogated then it seems to me that even you don't have the right to determine that the earlier 'peaceful' verses in the Koran are the rightful ones. Saying that even Muhhamad, to whom the unholy Koran was revealed, cannot determine what verses of it are reaaly words of God and what that of the devil; seems to make the whole Koran to be TOTALLY suspect. I don't think any muslim scholar agrees with your point of view.

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 10:10 AM

Dear Brother Mohideen

Now we play this type of game for one time.

Only New testaments. Talk about tolerance or good. Ok we show you good and tolerance in so called religion of forgiveness.

Bible:

John 2
2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

[So what is there. Is it civilians; who are not a part of this beautiful world.]

Philippians 2
2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Matthew 12
12:30 He that is not with me is against me;

Mark 16
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Mark 7
7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

If we go to the old testament those are supposed to be also followed by you people. Then we may have lot of killing and violence then anything else.

I did not want to criticize but it is you who are involve in criticizing the religions.

I will not go into more debate. If you are justice then you can judge the above words with their other meanings and also don’t mangle the world from Quran.

It is only hate that makes you people to spit on others religions. If Islam is so bad why are you afraid of it? As for every belief evil will diminished by itself because it is weak. But we cannot see the end to this ISLAM religion from last 1400 years and you can also see that it has the potential to go till the end of days of this world. We also believe in Jesus and thus according to him (i.e. Matthew 12:20) we are not against him. It is you people who want to create war in this world to get the wealth of the world.

I don’t want to say more but Khilafa has been there in Jerusalem and I think most Muslims believe that it is the solution to their problems in their countries but what is bothering you is described from someone of your Generals.

"I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar
soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so
full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their
own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type
because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any
peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American
style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down
their throats by Americans." -General David Sharp [Former United States
Marine Commandant 1966]

Dont be so suspecious about others, you people have already, recently, killed an innocent of being only suspect.

That makes you also terrorist because by defination any act what results in a loss of life or 10000$ is by defination a "terrorism".

Anyway, In all of my speach I did not talk about Muslim words. I only talk about the quotes you can check from your own sources within your people those are little bit serious in talking.

For being Muslim and tolerant, in the help of Brother Ibrahim, I may quote some Ayats that may help him in his arguments.

My hint to Brother Mohideen, please dont try to clean the filth from swamp of mud otherwise you will also have some mud on your shoulder. SO leave them here talking filth on this website. They cannot change anything that will come in favor or against Islam. They are intolerant to our religion and then they ask from us why islam is intolerant to them. They want to kill each Muslim like they did to Jews and others because of their only suspicious nature. In the end even today Jews are called bad in their countries not Christians those have killed them.

So best of luck brother Mohideen.

Quote of quran to help brother Mohideen:

1 Say: disbelievers!
2 "I worship not that which you worship,
3 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4 "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5 "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6 "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

Al-Kafeeron.

Where it is written to kill any non-Muslim?

These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them. Al-Qasas Ayah 54

The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e. Allah ordered the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly), then verily! he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend. Fussilat Ayah 34

Verily! This (Verses of the Qur'an) is an admonition, so whosoever wills, let him take a Path to his Lord (Allah). Al-Insan Ayah 29

Last is a very good prove that whosoever wills, let him take.

So wasalam and I dont want to waste so much time because we both know that they are talking meaningless and that is better for us that their time is wasted in such activities.

Peace to those only who want to be in peace with others.

If you fight us we reserve the right of self defense and that is also what Quran teaches us. Do what you like for yourself to be done.

Posted by: he_man at July 28, 2005 1:01 PM

he_man, your posting is the age-old Islamic ploy of playing the perpetually aggrieved party. Regarding the quotes from the Bible, none of these match the Koran in the degree of violence (i.e. sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....." and sura 5:33: “For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land”). Second, as far as I can see Islam is unique that in this day and age, muslims routinely using suicide bombings and decapitating innocents and do so all in the name of their religion. Finally, as is typical of most muslims with their warped logic, you turn things completely around by claiming to be victims when in fact you are the initial perperators of the crimes. In this you are exactly following the steps of your founder, Muhhamad.

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 1:38 PM

Dear brother he-man, Assalaamu Alaikum. Thanks for your help. I try to argue on this site because we do not know through which Allah SWT would tune the hearts. May be some hearts might get the benefit of our discussion. Was Salaam.

Continuing the discussion with all my brothers and sisters who believe Islam recommends violence by virtue of their misunderstood process of abrogation, we state:

A classic example involves the Kuranic teaching or regulation on drinking wine, where V, 90, which has a strong statement against the practice, came to be interpreted as a prohibition, abrogating II, 219, and IV, 43, which appear to allow it.
Razdan

First let us quote the Verses mentioned above.
2:219 They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.”
They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.”
Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider –

4:43: O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say – nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (except when traveling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

5:90 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination – of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

All the above three Verses can and do coexist. Each refers to distinctively different quantities: wine, befogged mind, and intoxicant. Let us consider wine and intoxicants first. From http://www.biology-online.org/search.php?search=wine we find:
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1. The expressed juice of grapes, especially. When fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment. … Wine is essentially a dilute solution of ethyl alcohol, containing also certain small quantities of ethers and ethereal salts which give character and bouquet. According to their colour, strength, taste, etc, wines are called red, white, spirituous, dry, light, still, etc.
2. A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to that for grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.
3. The effect of drinking wine in excess; intoxication.
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From http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/intoxicant we find:
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An intoxicating agent, such as alcohol.
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However, http://www.answers.com/intoxicant&r=67 has the following:
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The noun intoxicant has 2 meanings:
Meaning #1: a liquor or brew containing alcohol as the active agent
Synonyms: alcohol, alcoholic beverage, inebriant
Meaning #2: a drug that can produce a state of intoxication
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The above URL asks the following question:
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Or did you mean: psychoactive drug
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The meaning of psychoactive drug is given in http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=237prn22s7nto?tname=psychoactive-drug-1&method=6&sbid=lc02a as below:
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A psychoactive drug or psychotropic substance is a chemical that alters brain function, resulting in temporary changes in perception, mood, consciousness, or behaviour. Such drugs are often used for recreational and spiritual purposes, as well as in medicine, especially for treating neurological and psychological illnesses.
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From http://www.glcc-online.com/sermons/sglcc940306.htm we find:
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The wine of Bible times was low in alcohol content (usually ranging from 2 to 6%). The highest concentration of alcohol possible with primitive methods of fermentation is 14% (yeast cells die at this level of alcohol concentration).
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Drinking wine in excess leads to intoxication. However, drinking wine as a medicine, in very low quantities, obviously does not lead to intoxication, but seems to cure some diseases. From the definitions given above, intoxication causes changes in brain function, whereas wine taken as medicine causes a cure. Thus, the Holy Quran exercises fine tuning between wine and intoxicants. Intoxicants are banned in 5:90, whereas the wine is said to have some benefit but more sin. What is the effect of these two Verses on a believer? Whatever might be the persuasion, no intoxicants would be consumed; as far as possible non-alcoholic medications would be taken, but under extreme situations medicines with very low alcoholic content like wine might be taken. Of course, a believer tries to avoid even those medicines with very low alcoholic contents as far as possible. Let us not forget that preservation of life permits minor violations.

What is the Sunnah regarding fruit juices? Tradition numbered 1672 of Sunan of Abu Dawood is relevant here. Quoting, we have:
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Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin
Amrah said on the authority of Aisha that she would steep dates for the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) in the morning. When the evening came, he took his dinner and drank it after his dinner. If anything remained, she poured it out. She then would steep for him at night. When the morning came, he took his morning meal and drank it after his morning meal. She said: The skin vessel was washed in the morning and in the evening. My father (Hayyan) said to her: Twice a day? She said: Yes.
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How much alcohol would be produced? From http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlbert/micro101/pages/101lab16.html we find:
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ALTERNATIVE: WINE PREPARATION PROCEDURE
Take 2/3 gallon jar of apple cider and add 100-150 gm of glucose.
Mix until dissolved.
Add 10 ml of yeast culture and mix.
Stopper with tubing and let it sit for 5 weeks in a cool dark place.
Taste appropriately at the end of the semester.
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Let us do a bit of mathematics. Let us assume that at the end of five weeks, the alcohol content is the maximum permissible of 14%. Any population grows exponentially with time. Thus, assuming an exponential growth over 35 days produced 0.14 quantity of alcohol, the amount of alcohol produced in half a day is 0.001877, less than 0.2 percent. Thus, if ever there is fermentation over half a day of soaking, the amount is negligible. It is possible that over such a short period of time, there is no fermentation at all. In any case, a Muslim is permitted to soak fruit juices up to half a day and drink the same.

Consider 4:43. The mind could be befogged even due to sleepiness. It has nothing to do with wine or intoxicants. Thus, the believer is advised not to offer the prayer when he / she might not recognize the statements made to God Almighty.

Is there any need for abrogation between Verses 2:219, 4:43, and 5:90? No!!!

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 28, 2005 3:20 PM

The referance you gave to me were not complete sentences from Quran and are like in the following. SO what is wrong in it. Can you please say; if it is not allowed to wage a war against those who wage a war agaist you. It is called self defense in the real world. You cluster bomb civilians and the hand and body parts are cut the same way as it is written here but you dont bother about to say anything about that. Because it is done by you. So read the surah reference and try not to mangle the worlds.

So read the exact words that changes the whole meaning of what your comments were showing:
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sura 9:4-5-6
4 Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5 Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105)
wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6 And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
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Second reference of the surah:
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5:33
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
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Now if we come to Bible and your hypocrisy that I never intended to show but I am forced to talk this way. Let me make something more elaborated so that you may understand that every religion teaches some human laws that does not make any religion bad because of the only reason that you cannot understand the implication of these laws.

Again for Bible to show your some resemblance to what you say “killing”:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

Now I come to Old Testament so that you can understand that it is also a part of game to blame the violence in Christianity if any (i.e in my believe I cannot say anything bad to other religion on which I don’t believe since I cannot understand much of the soul of the message given by the messenger. The main reason is I remain unable to believe what he was saying.)

Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. Leviticus 20:27

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Exodus 22:18

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

.....Oh My GOD please GOD stop killiiing everyone.......

Not to say many.

So I will thank you that you at least judge me that I am following the teaching of Mohammad and till now my previous post said nothing about killing any one. In this case! You admitted that what my previous post said was all true and true for Mohammad too.

But I have a little doubt about my character that is not as perfect as the one; to whom you think I am comparable with.

Salam and don’t waste my time and stop this copy and paste business. You should atleast read the whole sentence of quran and then if you critisise it will be worth noticing. Otherwise do it like that and when people come to know the truth about the reference you give then they automatically void your comments. It was only the tip for the sake of good will.

I may not answer you next post since I, in my opinion, do not want to place more filth on other religions and don’t want other people to place the same on my religion.

Anyway If you think ISLAM is evil then fight it and then there is no reason from your side to be afraid of. But Their is no sign of ISLAM going from this planet till the end of times. You people are crying for the whole world to be with you to stop ISLAM that shows that you people are unable to stop ISLAM alone and that is an evidense that ISLAM has some very strong potential to fight the evil and sustain damages that you are trying to do to ISLAM.

One more thing. Those people who blame islam for “Taqayee” (i.e. the shia allowance of telling false), should understand that it is not merely allowed by any of the case where we are in on this website. If we say false thing you can tell us there is false. How can we say Taqayee.

What is more false that what Christians say:

We believe in GOD. Or We believe in GOD, son and Holy Ghost. Or Son was Father and human too.

What is more false that :

USA is secular state or We see in Dollar the term “In GOD we trust”. So secular means only to say or to do. When we go to courts in USA then we swear(oath) on Bible. What is secular in it. So don’t make excuses.

Bye bye say what ever you like.

Posted by: he_man at July 28, 2005 4:08 PM

Mohideen,

You write, There is a slight difference; in the Holy Quran translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, approved by the International Fiqh Academy as the most authentic translation, the Verse is 2:106. Quoting the Verse, we have:
===
2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things.

What I read from this quote makes the Koran even more confusing. If all the verses are TRUE and none can be abrogated then how does one reconcile

Sura 2:255: There is no compulsion in religion, for the truth has been made manifest from the false.

with

Sura 9:5: "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....."

and

sura 5:33: “For those who do not submit to Allah their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land”.

They can't all be right, can they?

Also, if, as you say, there is no abrogation in the Koran what about the verses that Muhammad recieved which he later claimed to be Satanic? Isn't it clear that Muhammad himself abrogated some of the verses?

(for more on teh satanic verses have a look at:
MUHAMMAD AND THE SATANIC VERSES)

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 4:14 PM

Dear Razdan,
We defend what is found in the Holy Quran and in the Sunnah only. We are not interested in defending statements made out of these sources.

The authentic Sunnah consists of the collections:
Sunan Abu Dawood
Sahih Al-Bukhari
Al-Muwatta
Al-Qudsi
Al-Tirmidhi
Fiqh-us-Sunnah
and
Sahih Muslim alone.

Please quote from the above for us to defend them.

As regards 9:5 and 5:33 they need to be understood in the context in which they appear. They are not to be understood independent of their context.

There is no contradiction in the Holy Quran.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 28, 2005 4:42 PM

Mohideen,

I'm amazed that you can with such a straight face make the claim that there are no contradictions in the Koran even though I clearly pointed out one as an example. Can you explain to us non-muslims what exactly is the context of 9:5 and 5:33 and why it does not contradict 2:255?

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 4:52 PM

As for contradictions in the Koran... it teems with them. See, for example,
Contradictions in the Koran

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 4:57 PM

Razdan

Dont say again and again same thing. I told you about the surah 9:5 and 5:33 in my pervious comment. I told you to read the whole sentenses. YOu know or can ask any muslim that it is important to say the whole sentece to understand the meaning of any sentense in any literature. It is not wise to read a half sentense and then say bla bla.

Please be bold to read atleast the whole sentense that I have given in my last comment. That shows you only say bla bla but dont read others comeents.

bye bye bye

Posted by: he_man at July 28, 2005 5:07 PM

Mr. he_man,

OK. Lets start by looking at the complete text of the Sura 9:5 that you provided:

Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105)
wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Now tell me how does this 'complete' text in any way reconcile with 2:255?

Allah definitely sounds very unmerciful to me!!!

Posted by: Razdan at July 28, 2005 5:21 PM

Dear Razdan,
In due course, God willing, all your points would be considered.

For the present, please find time to read through just one Friday Sermon given in three parts below:

http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/article_internal.php?article=103526&list=/newsarchive/index.php&

http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/article_internal.php?article=103648&list=/newsarchive/index.php&

http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/article_internal.php?article=103728&list=/newsarchive/index.php&

For your information, the third part appeared on July 29, 2005 only. So, you are looking at the most recent opinion of the pious Muslims. Please read them fully.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 29, 2005 7:06 AM

Mr. Razdan,

hey try to read all three lines and then it looks very logical.
_________________________________________________
sura 9:4-5-6
4 Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5 Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105)
wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

6 And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
_________________________________________________

If ALLAH looks un merciful to you then every human who believes in selfdefense should be the same. UNO should be the same. Nature that is balanced with a great factor of self defense should be the same unmerciful. In the end of the same sentances in question the world of [Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.] is used. i think you can also believe in that if you are believing in the whole sentance.

I give you an example,

Lets say, "Someone says to you that if someone slaps you, you have the equal right to slap him." Then you say it is unmerciful. No NO No. It is mercy that you are not taking the right of victim.

Now Lets say, "Someone says to you that if someone slaps you, you give him another cheek to slap again." Is it mercy or it is victimization and not justice.

For my Christians Brothers, I am not talking about Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) Philosophy. Because he said some more things about self defense and we know that he was a real great justice personality.

Now again to Razdan, in every bigger religion in terms of number of followers. God has both the properties of merciful,forgiving and punisher. So in Christianity, jewism, hinduism and other religion's, they have to have something of GOD that is working as a punisher. But you only are saying to talk about ISLAM & ALLAH for being unmerciful.

It is like saying that if a judge of USA court sends someone to prison, he is unmerciful. It looks not logical to me.

If you have an eye to even read the whole sentance then you may answer me that what could be the reason of using merciful and forgiving in the same sentense. In my opinion, may be, it is due to infact to answer the question of people like you. THat even if GOD is permitting this act of violence to his followers where he has no other choice for them except to selfdefense.

Now may be you may say that what is wrong in these three set of AYAH. Selfdefense is allowed and the need of Human kind. If cat attacks you to kill, you kill it. If a mosqueto attacks you to kill, you kill mosqutio in millions by spraying. If a man attacks you to kill, you favours the right to kill too.

So you are human and human should have to live like nature not like GOD. THat is why there are some rules that are especially for humans to deal with devil humans. THat does not make GOD unmerciful. If GOD is unmerciful then he might have used his might to kill everyone. He is forgiving and merciful. That is the key to our discussions.

This merciful and punishing nature of GOD is there in most of the religions of the world. So either Chritians, Jew, Islam, Hindus and other religion's GOD are too unmerciful or you did not get it right.

Salam. peace for only those you want to be in peace with others too.

Posted by: he_man at July 29, 2005 10:51 AM

An example of this abrogation is 24:2 which abrogates the punishment of adultery, (q.v.) stated in 4:15-16.
Razdan

We had already indicated that the authority to abrogate a Verse of the Holy Quran rests with God Almighty only. Let us see if 24:2, 4:15 and 4:16 have consistent interpretation. First we quote them.

===
24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication – flog each of them with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

4:16 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
===

To facilitate the discussion, we quote 23:5 – 7 below:
===
23:5 who abstain from sex,
23:6 except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess – for (in their case) they are free from blame,
23:7 but those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors –
===

Verses 23:5 – 7 define legal sex; any sex other than between the husband and wife (we need not consider the captives as they are not available now) is illegal and thus deserves to be punished. Verse 24:2 refers to sex out of wedlock between a male and a female. The punishment to be inflicted depends on the marital status of the sinner. An unmarried sinner receives hundred lashes and is exiled from the community for one year. However, a married sinner is stoned to death. This conclusion is drawn from Tradition numbered 885 in Volume 3 of Sahih Al-Bukhari quoted below:
===
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al Juhani
A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge my case according to Allah's laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i.e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death."
Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.
===

Verse 4:15 refers to two women indulging in sex, while Verse 4:16 is about two men indulging in sex. Such indulgence is against all nature. So, they are jailed separately for their life if they insist on such sex. Of course, if they repent and make amends (possibly by marrying and leading a normal life), they are forgiven and released. There is no evidence to assume that the guilty are to be starved to death.

The words “or Allah ordain for them some (other) way” is one more evidence of the divine nature of the Holy Quran. Today we do perform sex change operations, and thus the virtual male among the two females becomes a male and they two could get married and lead a normal life. Similarly, the virtual female among the two males could become a female and become the wife of the other male to lead a normal life. We must, however, mention that mind has the ultimate control over the body, and thus true repentance converts the virtual female to a real female, and converts the virtual male to a real male. By confining the mentally aberrant virtual members and (possibly praying for them) they are cured of their disease and they lead normal lives.

The Verse 24:2 refers to a sexual offence between a male and a female, Verse 4:15 refers to sexual offence between two females, whereas Verse 4:16 refers to sex crime between two males. The three crimes are distinct from each other, and the Holy Quran rightly recommends different courses of action. No need for any abrogation.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 29, 2005 11:13 AM

When hearing people explain Islam claiming the earlier more peaceful verses are dominant in Islamic philosophy, one must judge between two options; Either the presenter is completely ignorant of genuine Islamic doctrine, or he is practicing officially sanctioned Islamic deceit.
Razdan

Who has the capability to know the genuine Islamic doctrine: a practicing Muslim or a non-Muslim? Major religions talk about Paradise and Hell, which are experienced after death. A person who is dead is not allowed to come back to life to explain the events and experiences after death. We are aware that the Impostor, the false Christ, the Masih Al-Dajjal, would bring to life the ancestors of certain people and claim that he is indeed Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. What Dajjal does is get some devils to appear as the ancestors and fool the people. So, matters of religion are beyond the law of verification demanded by science. Accordingly, the explanation of Islam by a practicing Muslim must be accepted and any objection by a non-Muslim that contradicts the explanation given by a practicing Muslim must be rejected.

We had been reading the Translation and Meaning of the Holy Quran from 1963. Every time you complete the reading of the Holy Quran from cover to cover, slowly, assimilating the meaning, Allah grants further and further insight. Though we cannot claim to know all of the Islamic doctrine, we are honest in stating that, “we try our level best to understand the Holy Quran.” Thus, we are not completely ignorant; we are reasonably knowledgeable.

From http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp we find:
===
Taqiyya and kitman or ‘holy hypocrisy’ has been diffused throughout Arabic culture for over fourteen hundred years since it was developed by Shiites as a means of defence and concealment of beliefs against Sunni unbelievers. As the Prophet said: 'he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.’
===

The above passage deserves to be analyzed. First and foremost, it is from a Shiite Muslim, as it refers to ‘Sunni unbelievers.’ It purports to quote a Tradition: ‘he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives.’ We tried to locate this Tradition. A search on – secrets – in ALIM CD yielded 12 Traditions that are all different from the above. We even looked at the Verses with ‘secrets’ in their translation, and none of them have any statement even close to the so called Tradition mentioned in the reference given by Mr. Razdan. What a pity people had assumed wrong things about Islam based on lies. In this connection, we would like to draw the attention to two Verses of the Holy Quran: 3:118 and 3:119 quoted below.
===
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: they will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: what their hearts conceal is far worse. WE have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
3:119 Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not – though ye believe in the whole of the Book, when they meet you, they say, “We believe”: but when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: “Perish in your rage; Allah knows well all the secrets of the heart.”
===
Since the Tradition alluded to in http://www.ci-ce-ct.com/Feature%20articles/02-12-2002.asp is not a Tradition at all, there is no officially sanctioned Islamic deceit.

God Almighty knows that we love the whole mankind; we sincerely state the facts as we understand them. Kindly avoid accusing the Muslims based on misunderstandings.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 30, 2005 1:03 PM

Because opinions with regard to proper conduct between believers and non-believers varies widely, the question of which Qur’anic verses are ‘alive’ and being applied today, is critical to understanding ‘Real Islam’, and potentially to our own survival.
Razdan

Each and every letter of the Holy Quran is alive. It is guaranteed to remain alive until the Day of Judgment. So, please read the Holy Quran as is available today without any confusion. The site http://www.freequran.org/ offers a copy of the free Holy Quran with translation in English, Spanish or French.

God willing, we hope to clarify any misunderstanding regarding Islam. If such confusions are reported in this site, we hope to try our best in clarifying the issues.

Posted by: Mohideen Ibramsha at July 30, 2005 1:21 PM