The more I hear of the spread of Islam, or the turning towards jihad of existing Muslims, in prison the more I feel that the discredited ideas of the penitentiary system should be reconsidered.

This website explains the principle. The chapel would need some thought as a conventional mosque would not be appropriate.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/laworder/penton.htm

The "peak" could be renamed the burka. Human rights apologists will be told that this garment is worn by the men's wives and, in the interests of equal opportunities there can be no objection to their showing solidarity with the "portable seclusion" imposed/adopted by their women. Again the number system is practical; they all have the same name, Mohammed, so a distinguishing number is pure practicality. The silence is not a problem as music is haram for them in any event.
I am not sure how the mental health problems (which were one factor in the demise of the original system) compare with the mental health/suicide rate of a modern penal institution. I suspect that the figures are no worse, per capita, for the penetentiary. The main reason the system failed is that it was used to try to reform petty offenders, frequently hungry children for whom it was not appropriate. It was not used to contain a murderous facist ideology who should never be unleashed back into society.
If that sounds harsh, it is. The alternative has proved worse.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 28, 2005 7:39 AM

Am still learning here and do not have any valid information to impart.I wish to learn as much as possible to help get the message out to a wider world. We must protect our childrens world from the horror of total Islam.

Posted by: marilyn at July 28, 2005 7:49 AM

Marilyn, the contribution of your participation here is appreciated enough. Thank you. We are all learning and when we stop, we need to get off this board!

I am waiting for Mr. S. to report the influx of e-mail regarding the use of the term, "Methodists" asking him why he chose "them." NOTHING against Methodists - sure it was just the first apple he picked out of the fruit bowl of religions. Think of it as a compliment - you were the first thing on his mind! {that can be my only explanation}

Now, what IF these round of attacks in London, known as the Badr of 7/7, were done by Muslims but the next round were done by atheists, would that change the scope of the situation or your opinion of the Muslim world or would we agree that our country is still at war? Trust me, soon they'll start hiring [outside their element] to do their dirty work, and then what? Yes, the have enough money to do it, too! The younger the jihadis are, the easier they are to recruit and money talks. So does oil.

Posted by: JW gal at July 28, 2005 8:18 AM

Speaking of the bombers and the British response... The futility of expecting anything more than propaganda and lies out of the Muslim community's leadership...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/07/28/dl2802.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/28/ixportal.html

Posted by: Cthulhu at July 28, 2005 9:47 AM

marylin;

do not denigrate yourself, there are plenty of "folks" out there that are more than willing to do it for you, with an enthusiasm that will make your blood run cold. they are the enemy you know, and can see, and those you don't, and can't.
by reading and commenting here you show you already know far more than most and far more than you think. i make this and JW's sister site a regular daily read, usually more than once a day. WARNING: sched your 15 minutes here with some wiggle room, i can't tell you how many times i promised myself, "just 15m to catch up on new posts and comments" and then find myself
unable to resist posting in response to some compelling or insane comment. ("the best laid plans", etc)
as with any information source, you will find a spectrum of opinions, viewpoints, and ulterior motives. ream'em all, apply critical thought, question assumptions, keep your mind open and active, and when you deem something as truthful, take it with you and share it.
the value here is several-fold(a word?),
(1)you'll have information available to you from more sources than you could probably find on your own(the efforts of the members of this site is mind-boggling)
(2)you have so many voices, opinions, and viewpoints to utilize that getting stuck in a narrowly defined, tangential, or disingenous idea is difficult. you usually can get a well-rounded, thoughtfully considered grasp of a particular idea or story with a little effort,
the big picture, so to speak.
(3)the skills, experiences, educations, and personal leanings of the sites participants are there for your benefit, you will come to appreciate them once you realize you have begun to incorporate them into your efforts to "get the word out".
(4) since trolls are a fact of life, you can easily observe "more experienced" infidels argue with dhimmis here and note the tactics used to clear away the fog of propaganda when arguing with islamofascist apologists. (this is of far greater importance than you may realise at this time)
(5) maybe most important, you will realise YOU ARE NOT ALONE

keep coming back, buy a quran, read it and the books recommended here, speak without reservation(but with discipline and decorum), and when it comes to questions, ask-ask-ask.

Posted by: t-ham at July 28, 2005 10:05 AM

One thing that is being done in this country to combat the Muslimization of prisoners probably wouldn't work in England or the other post-Christian European states.

Here in this country (and many others, Australia comes to mind. Britain does have a few chapters) there are voluntary Christian groups who work in on-going programs to help incarcerated men and women regain some sense of meaning and purpose in their lives. One that I have volunteered in and donated money to is "Kairos."

Kairos means 'the right time' in Greek. The closest word we have is 'timely' -- i.e., the propitious moment to do something. This particular group has a carefully worked-out weekend with life-long follow-up. It works with maximum and medium security prisoners and has been well-received by prison authorities, though that took some doing in the beginning.

It also has an after-prison program and one for families of prisoners. In addition, it works with juvenile offenders. The work is labor-intensive. One weekend takes about 40 people, both those who go in to the prison and those outside who provide food, lodging etc. You can google Kairos + prison and get their website.

We live in a very rural area. It's poor and largely has a black population. Not far from us, maybe twenty or thirty miles away, is a small house of ex-prisoners who call themselves Muslims. My husband wanted to go over to the area and ask around --there are ways to do that in the country -- but I realized I was too afraid for his safety and for my mental health he agreed not to go.

The appeal of Muslim murder and mayhem is obvious, though:it's filling the hole in the soul for a lot of men who were raised without a sense of over-arching purpose or meaning. The warrior culture gives them a place in the world and it proves to them what they already knew: there are worse things than dying.

Posted by: Dymphna at July 28, 2005 10:21 AM

BTW, I have a question for all of you. Over on Gates, I am trying to come up with a better word term than "suicide bomber." To me, it's inaccurate because he's also committing homicide and 'suicide bomber' is too genteel. It almost connotes some kind of virtue.

Please think about it and weigh in. There have been some good suggestions so far:

At a Loss for Words

I'd appreciate the input.

~D

Posted by: Dymphna at July 28, 2005 10:41 AM

From Ali Sina's FFI:

Islamic Culpability

by: Vernon Richards

It is way past time to give it up people. We have tried to target various vile terrorists, while at the same time pumping up Islam, but its just not working. As we fight terrorists, we have been unable to face the stark reality that Islam, and the example of their revered prophet, are the chief motivation behind various terrorist foot-soldiers. It’s not a ‘culture’, it’s not a few deviants, it’s not a government or nation, it’s the religion. As we look first one way, and then the other, in-you-face Muslim leaders and lay continue their Jihad against us, pushing their young men to commit acts of inhumane brutality in the name of their hateful god Allah. Previously unthinkable news and images invades our living rooms on a daily basis. Only the dead and dumb can continue to hide from the facts surrounding a philosophy calling itself a religion, hell-bent on murdering or enslaving the rest of humanity. For those able to think, here is a news flash: The 9/11 hijackers, the London Bombers, the Beslan child-killers, the Chechen terrorists, the Palestinian terrorists, the Madrid terrorists, the Darfur killers, the Iraqi murderers, The Bali bombers, and innumerable acts of murder and carnage, are all linked. The common linkage, is that the victimizers are all devout Muslims! Yes, that wonderful ‘religion of peace’ we have been so careful to respect. And while the foot-soldiers act to weaken Western influence and institutions, ‘moderate Islam’ continues to do what it does best, hide militants living amongst them and silently cheer from the sidelines. The common denominator in this equation of violence is ISLAM. The common script for all these violent plays is the Qur’an, the Sira, and the Hadith collection. The identical characters for all these ugly occurrences are devout Muslims well steeped in Islamic verse and prose.

In our need to believe all religion is good, we continue to place blame everywhere else, anywhere else, even ourselves, except where it is due. Naïve to the methods and history of Islam, most of us transfer our own religious experience onto undeserving Muslims, incorrectly assuming that going to the Mosque and more prayer will dissuade Muslims from acts of evil, when it works exactly the opposite. Whereas most religionists leave their places of worship more docile, reflective, and less likely to do harm to others, in Islam worshipers leave the Mosques on Friday and go on murderous riots to avenge some perceived slight. Never, NEVER, encourage a disturbed Muslim to read the Qur’an, or go to a mosque and pray. It is only when nominal Muslims actually learn the facts of who Muhammad actually was and what he expects, that they are at risk to become terrorists. Thank heaven most Muslims don’t know too much of their own history and teachings, and it is best to keep it that way. Unfamiliarity and lack of dedication to the Torah and Bible prevents good Jews and Christians from becoming better men and women, but unfamiliarity and lack of dedication to the Qur’an prevents good Muslims from becoming bad Muslims.

For non-Muslims, self-preservation dictates that it is essential to become familiar with the actual teachings and example of Muhammad. Even if you don’t know your own religion very well, or if you have no religion at all, each of us had better become knowledgeable of the philosophy and people bent on killing, converting, or enslaving us all. Without that armor of truth, our societies, cultures, and nations will eventually fall to Islam’s methods and tactics. NO ONE should listen to the taqiyya (misinformation) constantly issued by Islamic apologists and propagandists. Each of us needs to take personal responsibility to know and understand the enemy seeking our demise. I suggest you start with my E-Book Islam Undressed, and move on to other sites like www.faithfreedom.org. To gain insight into the reality of Islam’s culpability, consider the following article recently released:

CNN - Jul 20 2005 - Father of 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta warns of 50-year war. The father of one of the September 11 hijackers said today he had no sorrow for what had happened in London and claimed more terrorist attacks would follow. Egyptian Mohamed el-Amir, whose son Mohamed Atta commandeered the first plane that crashed into the World Trade Centre in New York , said there was a double standard in the way the world viewed the victims in London and victims in the Islamic world. El-Amir said the attacks in the US and the July 7 attacks in Britain were the beginning of what would be a 50-year religious war, in which there would be many more fighters like his son. Speaking to a CNN producer in his apartment in the upper-middle-class Cairo suburb of Giza , he declared that terror cells around the world were a "nuclear bomb that has now been activated and is ticking". Cursing in Arabic, el-Amir also denounced Arab leaders and Muslims who condemned the London attacks as being traitors and non-Muslims. He passionately vowed that he would do anything within his power to encourage more attacks.

So after reading this; who is responsible for Mohammed Atta’s acts on 9/11, does this revelation implicate his father? Certainly it makes it clear there was a family/culture component supporting the path he took, but from where in turn did his father derive his value system which he obviously he instilled in his son, Mmmmm? Well, get a grip, and stop looking the other way, …the manifest truth is that both the father and son have a clear grasp of real Islam, and they practice it! Stare it right in the face, and do not blink. They learned it from sacred Islamic scripture and from a lifetime at the mosque and listening to pious Imams. The father fears no backlash to his comments from his friends, neighbors, and Muslim countrymen because ...there is nothing to fear. The man receives more congratulations than condemnations. This from Egypt , a supposedly friendly nation who receives as much US aid as Israel . Hello, …its Islam peoples! From the growing Muslim Brotherhood group in Egypt we get men like this, and the original terrorists who first attempted to bring down the NY Twin Towers. To travel into the minds of Muslims is like going to the land of OZ , everything is different, and much is manifestly evil. Be sure you have your ruby slippers on before going there, you will often feel the urge to click your heals three times and say; “there’s no place like home…”. When you get back, you will want a shower. If you are not Islamophobic yet, then you are either already dead, or stupid. Becoming Islamophobic is the graduation certificate you get upon moving from delusion and ignorance, to full-awareness. When you have arrived, wear it with pride.

Posted by: Terminator at July 28, 2005 10:43 AM

9 More Methodists Arrested in Botched London Attacks -- Oh, Wait...

ROTFL!! ROTFL!!

Gold Star for you today!!!

http://www.beecy.net/frank/

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO STAY THE COURSE TO FREEDOM TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at July 28, 2005 11:14 AM

Thanks Robert.

I know it's hard to believe that Muslims could have anything to do with terrorism, but there it is.

"Adherents of militant Islam account for some 15-20 percent of the Muslim world..."

www.meforum.org/article/168

Posted by: Report at July 28, 2005 12:06 PM

OT but apparently Irshad Manji and Nihad Awad from CAIR (Council Against Islamic Reason) both appeared on "Nightline" last night. Awad stuck to the same, sorry party line but you can tell the Islamic spin brigade is starting to show chinks in their armor......

A snippet of the transcript:

http://www.cair-net.org

It's amazing that the webmasters at CAIR don't realize how truly idiotic Awad sounds next to Manji!!

Posted by: kafira at July 28, 2005 1:26 PM

JW gal,

It is possible that in the future, Muslim Jihadists will recruit non-Muslims. However, for the most part, the only non-Muslims who would ally themselves with the Muslim Jihadists would be disaffected Western Leftists who hate America, the West and Israel and who have nothing psychically to fill the void of their hate except a kind of neo-Trotskyite quasi-nihilism for which Islam represents a "revolutionary" Utopianism.

Even so, Western Leftist recruits might be willing to smash Starbucks windows or vandalize random McDonald's, but I doubt they would have the extra amount of diseased fanaticism to volunteer for suicide bombings.

So far we have no indication that Muslim Jihadists are recruiting non-Muslims: every act of Islamic terror we have seen has used foot-soldiers who look Muslim, behave like Muslims, talk like Muslims, and have an Islamic background that often has shown signs of increasing in Islamic religiousity & culture up to the date of their terrorist acts.

Posted by: metaxy at July 28, 2005 1:29 PM

Metaxy:

I wouldn't take too much comfort in the fact that so far as we know the anti-globalization types, etc., limit their activities to violent protests at conferences and vandalizing corporate stores. I'm old enough to remember the "peacenik" 60s culture that also featured fanatics like the Weather Underground, Bader-Meinhoff, Red Brigades and look at the resurrection of Che Guevara as a hero.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at July 28, 2005 2:05 PM

waterdragon,

Even those Leftist groups you mention never engaged in that extra twist of psychosis of suicide bombings that we've seen now committed by the THOUSANDS over the past 25+ years by Muslims (let alone throughout the history of Jihad, which has used suicide attacks going back as far as the conquest of North Africa in the 8th century). Leftists might undergo a psychological twist into further extremism that would prepare them for suicide tactics, but so far there's no indication of that.

Of course, there's a lot for Leftist recruits to do to help the Jihadists short of actually suicide-bombing, and I'm sure many are already ideologically and psychologically capable of that.

Posted by: metaxy at July 28, 2005 2:42 PM

Mailyn
Welcome to the forum. T-ham & Terminator have some good advice for new arrivals. I would only add that you will find it useful to buy or borrow some of Robert Spencer's books. I started with Onward Muslim Soldiers, which will give you a good background in islam and its call for jihad warfare. Also, you can safely ignore some of the trolls' personal attacks. Although you can benefit from a familiarity with their arguments, you sure have to wade through a lot of manure.

You are right to be concerned about the problem that islam poses to the welfare of your children. So far I have not found any sound plan of protection, as such, but have decided on my own to educate my family and PREPARE them for the eventualities. This preparation has to be physical, mental, emotional, political, economic, and spiritual, because islam attacks on ALL of these fronts. It is an evil system.

My family keeps its eyes and ears open. We recognize the islamic threat as probably the greatest threat we will ever face in our lifetimes. I am quite serious about this. You would probably be shocked at the preparations I have already made, and yet I feel it is only a start.

I believe it is inevitable that this country (USA) will sustain another attack, which will make 9/11 look like a picnic. If you pay attention you will see that our politicians are only interested in doing the politically correct things for the next election. The population of this country has tolerated a philosophy of multicultural, egalitarian, victim-worship, for so long that most people cannot see the obvious, even when it blows up in their faces.

Having come from darkness to light, and being freeborn and capable of independent thought, we recognize that we have to steel ourselves and find friends upon whom we can depend for mutual support.

My wife and I are going to do the political campaigning, letter-writing, contributing, surfing, talking and hollerin' that we can. But we have come to the conclusion that all of that will not be enough soon enough. Others have reached the same conclusion.

I know the family of a retired army general (god rest his soul) who took his advice and prepared for a NUCLEAR BLAST. I know a judge who is preparing his country house for the time he has to flee the city. I know a lawyer who has arial photographs of his farm, upon which he has laid out fields of fire, and has stockpiled the food and weapons he needs to defend it. At least one family I know built an interior hidden shelter into their home. These Texans are educated, accomplished, and often well-to-do, and you would NEVER KNOW from their everday habits the extent of their preparations. They may have forgotten how to ride a horse, or never learned, but they all know how to shoot and do so regularly, including the children.

But please, don't let me alarm you. Your reading of the koran will do plenty of that.

Posted by: texan at July 28, 2005 3:37 PM

Hi Texan, sounds like my family.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at July 28, 2005 3:47 PM

Metaxy: the jihadis and anarchists have already gotten together to work out some mutal arrangements. We do have doemstic terrorists in the states and with the agendas being the same, well...they have similar goals and while one groups brings one thing to the table,t he other brings what's missing. Already going on. It's these anarchists, of which I was speaking; getting together with jihadis - not specifically non-Muslims, but anarchists. I hope I made myself more clear now - if ever I need to be more clear, please let me know. Thanks!

Marilyn ~ gee all the greetings here, you'll be pleasantly adddicted in no time!

Posted by: JW gal at July 28, 2005 7:28 PM

JW gal,

I'd count Timothy McVeigh as one of those "anarchists", in the sense both that he wished the USA to be destroyed (but like most anti-Western Leftists has no real alternative to put in its place), and that he had a bleeding heart for all the "victims" of the evil USA.

Here's some extracts from a letter McVeigh wrote while in jail awaiting execution. See how similar his anti-American logic is to both the ilk of Ward Churchill and Noam Chomsky, as well as bin Laden:

"the people of the nation [the USA] approve of bombing government employees because they are "guilty by association" -- they are Iraqi government employees. In regard to the bombing in Oklahoma City, however, such logic is condemned.
What motivates these seemingly contradictory positions? Do people think that government workers in Iraq are any less human than those in Oklahoma City? Do they think that Iraqis don't have families who will grieve and mourn the loss of their loved ones? In this context, do people come to believe that the killing of foreigners is somehow different than the killing of Americans?

"The truth is, the U.S. has set the standard when it comes to the stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction.

"Hypocrisy when it comes to death of children? In Oklahoma City, it was family convenience that explained the presence of a day-care center placed between street level and the law enforcement agencies which occupied the upper floors of the building. Yet when discussion shifts to Iraq, any day-care center in a government building instantly becomes "a shield." Think about that."
http://www.nukeisrael.com/timmcveigh.htm

Vidal corresponded with McVeigh for three years, a fact which serves as the impetus for the piece. He quotes some of McVeigh's letters to him (which serve mainly to confirm that McVeigh did indeed think of himself as a soldier in a righteous battle against an evil government).
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2001/08/09/vidal/

[More of McVeigh's own words:]
"Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and, subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah Building was not personal no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against (foreign) government installations and their personnel.)"
http://www.isebrand.com/Gore_Vidal_McVeigh2_2001.htm

The ritual media demonizing of Saddam, Arabs, Iraqis had been so exaggerated that when McVeigh got to Iraq he was startled to 'find out they are normal like me and you. They hype you to take these people out. They told us we were to defend Kuwait where the people had been raped and slaughtered. War woke me up.'"
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j050901.html

Serrano wrote that by the end of the war, “McVeigh had learned that he did not like the taste of killing innocent people. He spat into the sand at the thought of being forced to hurt others who did not hate him any more than he them.”
http://www.epinions.com/content_91539345028

Vidal, who is on assignment for Vanity Fair, spoke sympathetically of McVeigh and told The Observer: 'McVeigh regarded the government as having committed a number of crimes. He was a highly decorated soldier in the Gulf war who became disillusioned about how it [the US government] treated Iraqis and and its own troops, through the use of chemicals.
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/timothy.htm

As for those who call McVeigh a "right-wing Christian" and say he's the Christian equivalent to the Muslim Jihadists, consider that McVeigh made no final statement before his execution other than copying out the poem Invictus by W.E. Henley. If he were the equivalent of the hundreds of Muslim Jihadists we've seen, his final statement would have been quotes from the Bible, copious references to Jesus Christ and God, and defense of the Nicene Creed. (By the way, the only mention of anything remotely religious in that poem, "Invictus", is the following line -- "I thank whatever gods may be" !!! -- a decidedly skeptical statement concerning divinity, and certainly utterly devoid of Christian fanaticism, let alone Christian anything.) Link to the poem: http://www.bartleby.com/103/7.html

Posted by: metaxy at July 28, 2005 8:03 PM

Now, what IF these round of attacks in London, known as the Badr of 7/7, were done by Muslims but the next round were done by atheists, and again by JW Gal

Metaxy: the jihadis and anarchists have already gotten together to work out some mutal arrangements. We do have doemstic terrorists in the states and with the agendas being the same, well...they have similar goals and while one groups brings one thing to the table,t he other brings what's missing. Already going on. It's these anarchists, of which I was speaking; getting together with jihadis - not specifically non-Muslims, but anarchists. I hope I made myself more clear now - if ever I need to be more clear, please let me know. Thanks!

This is patently ridiculous and more of the extreme right wing agitprop, the ongoing attempt to conflate athiests and "leftists" with Jihadis'.

It is counterproductive, and here is why.. me, Kj and others on this board who are active Jihad Fighters, in fact I spent most of my time on another forum fighting with Muslims, Right Wingers and libertarian cum leftists who are Islamophiles and dhimmi's in training.

The Anarchists and leftists and especially not the atheists, have any plans to replace our constitution with Shari'a, of Islam the best I can say is that they are ignorant, abysmally so, the worst I can say is that they are opportunistically pragmatic seeing in Islam a fulfillment of the age old dream of a utopian, classless, raceless world.

But suicidal, no, terrorist, yeh some, like the Meinhoff Bader Gang of Germany, the Earth Liberation Front and the Red Brigades of Europe, but in the end they are immature, mindless drones who do grow out of it all, alas the Muslims don't.

But they ain't suicide bombers, and they aren't going to kill civilians and they don't want to live under Shari'a, if they have a clue what Shari's is.

Sadly the core of these left wing anarchists and leftists are rich upper middle class Jewish kids (go figure) A.N.S.W.E.R. certainly is, and A.N.S.W.E.R organized to support the muslim Bosnians and organized against the invasion of Iraq).

What needs to be done is to reach a hand across the aisle to the non Muslim left, enlighten them and pull them over this side of the aisle, diatribes like yours Metaxy and others achieve the opposite effect.

Sometimes I get so disgusted with the misconceived bile that spills out of the mouth of the self righteous right (which actually in many ways has more in common with the Islamofascists than they care to realize) that I just want to throw up my hands, and either sit back in neutrality or worse, be an obstinate suicidal arse and join the Islamofascists and their dhimmi's. Why expend energy, time, money and emotion to defend people like you, Metaxy and others of that ilk?

Why bother when you call awakened and cognizant atheists and liberals names, and equate us to the enemies of western culture and civilization?

Why bother at all?

Just remember you can trumpet your self righteousness and religiosity, but a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Are you and others of the self righteous neo con right suicidal? You must be since you are halving your forces before the battle has really gotten underway.

Posted by: Giaour at July 28, 2005 8:32 PM

Funny Giaour, we never get to see any of your vast knowledge about islam here, you are always berating Christianity here at JW.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at July 28, 2005 11:14 PM

Giaour,

Would you call the likes of Ward Churchill, Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Lynne Stewart and the countless Leftists who stand in solidarity with their Palestinian "brothers and sisters" -- would you call all of them right-wingers?

Posted by: metaxy at July 28, 2005 11:43 PM