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The estimable Patrick Sookhdeo, who has done superlative work tracing the systematic denial of rights and persecution of Christians by Muslims in Pakistan, has written a superb piece underscoring what I have said many, many times: there are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate: the teachings that the jihad terrorists use to justify their actions are embedded in the core of the religion. From The Spectator, with thanks to John Derbyshire:
The funeral of British suicide bomber Shehzad Tanweer was held in absentia in his family’s ancestral village, near Lahore, Pakistan. Thousands of people attended, as they did again the following day when a qul ceremony was held for Tanweer. During qul, the Koran is recited to speed the deceased’s journey to paradise, though in Tanweer’s case this was hardly necessary. Being a shahid (martyr), he is deemed to have gone straight to paradise. The 22-year-old from Leeds, whose bomb at Aldgate station killed seven people, was hailed by the crowd as ‘a hero of Islam’.
Some in Britain cannot conceive that a suicide bomber could be a hero of Islam. Since 7/7 many have made statements to attempt to explain what seems to them a contradiction in terms. Since the violence cannot be denied, their only course is to argue that the connection with Islam is invalid. The deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Brian Paddick, said that ‘Islam and terrorists are two words that do not go together.’ His boss, the Commissioner Sir Ian Blair, asserted that there is nothing wrong with being a fundamentalist Muslim.
But surely we should give enough respect to those who voluntarily lay down their lives to accept what they themselves say about their motives. If they say they do it in the name of Islam, we must believe them. Is it not the height of illiberalism and arrogance to deny them the right to define themselves?
On 8 July the London-based Muslim Weekly unblushingly published a lengthy opinion article by Abid Ullah Jan entitled ‘Islam, Faith and Power’. The gist of the article is that Muslims should strive to gain political and military power over non-Muslims, that warfare is obligatory for all Muslims, and that the Islamic state, Islam and Sharia (Islamic law) should be established throughout the world. All is supported with quotations from the Koran. It concludes with a veiled threat to Britain. The bombings the previous day were a perfect illustration of what Jan was advocating, and the editor evidently felt no need to withdraw the article or to apologise for it. His newspaper is widely read and distributed across the UK.
By far the majority of Muslims today live their lives without recourse to violence, for the Koran is like a pick-and-mix selection. If you want peace, you can find peaceable verses. If you want war, you can find bellicose verses. You can find verses which permit only defensive jihad, or you can find verses to justify offensive jihad.
You can even find texts which specifically command terrorism, the classic one being Q8:59-60, which urges Muslims to prepare themselves to fight non-Muslims, ‘Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies’ (A. Yusuf Ali’s translation). Pakistani Brigadier S.K. Malik’s book The Quranic Concept of War is widely used by the military of various Muslim countries. Malik explains Koranic teaching on strategy: ‘In war our main objective is the opponent’s heart or soul, our main weapon of offence against this objective is the strength of our own souls, and to launch such an attack, we have to keep terror away from our own hearts.... Terror struck into the hearts of the enemies is not only a means, it is the end itself. Once a condition of terror into the opponent’s heart is obtained, hardly anything is left to be achieved. It is the point where the means and the end meet and merge. Terror is not a means of imposing decision on the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose on him.’
If you permit yourself a little judicious cutting, the range of choice in Koranic teaching is even wider. A verse one often hears quoted as part of the ‘Islam is peace’ litany allegedly runs along the lines: ‘If you kill one soul it is as if you have killed all mankind.’ But the full and unexpurgated version of Q5:32 states: ‘If anyone slew a person — unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land — it would be as if he slew the whole people.’ The very next verse lists a selection of savage punishments for those who fight the Muslims and create ‘mischief’ (or in some English translations ‘corruption’) in the land, punishments which include execution, crucifixion or amputation. What kind of ‘mischief in the land’ could merit such a reaction? Could it be interpreted as secularism, democracy and other non-Islamic values in a land? Could the ‘murder’ be the killing of Muslims in Iraq? Just as importantly, do the Muslims who keep quoting this verse realise what a deception they are imposing on their listeners?...
Read it all. Read it all. Read it all.
Posted by Robert at July 28, 2005 8:50 PM
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The very title of this post should cause some heads to explode. (LOL)
Posted by: Carolyn2![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at July 28, 2005 9:09 PM
From page 4 of the article:
The Muslim community now inhabits principally the urban centres of England as well as some parts of Scotland and Wales. It forms a spine running down the centre of England from Bradford to London, with ribs extending east and west. It is said that within 10 to 15 years most British cities in these areas will have Muslim-majority populations, and will be under local Islamic political control, with the Muslim community living under Sharia.
What happens after this stage depends on which of the two main religious traditions among Pakistani-background British Muslims gains the ascendancy. The Barelwi majority believe in a slow evolution, gradually consolidating their Muslim societies, and finally achieving an Islamic state. The Deobandi minority argue for a quicker process using politics and violence to achieve the same result. Ultimately, both believe in the goal of an Islamic state in Britain where Muslims will govern their own affairs and, as the finishing touch, everyone else’s affairs as well.
Alarmist?
What do you think, fellow British readers?
at July 28, 2005 9:45 PM
Zico, I do not think you are alarmist. Don't just send the alarm, send the videotape!
I think the martyr's funeral needs to be televised. Demand a broadcast of the thousands of celebrants at the funeral of Shadid Shehzad Tanweer. Find copies and send to everyone you know on the internet. Have them send copies to everyone they know. Demand that BBC, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox news run the footage.
at July 28, 2005 9:57 PM
Moderate Islam is not a myth. It is a lie, taqiyyah.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 28, 2005 9:58 PM
Two comments:
#1.
John Derbyshire, who sent the Sookhdeo piece posted above, is not only a far better writer, but a far better thinker, than all the Bright Young Conservative Things, careerists with blondes on the arm, who run more than one of the magazines that have, as far as the "war on terror" (as it continues to be absurdly, and misleadingly, called) and the Bush Administration's Excellent Adventure in Bringing Democracy (which, by the way, is On the March all over the Middle East, with incalculably wonderful consequences for all of us Infidels) to Iraq, along with so much else -- "the wonderful toys to play with and the good food to eat for all the boys and girls on the other side of the mountain" -- oh, sorry, that's a recovered memory from The Little Engine That Could.
#2.
Patrick Sookhdeo directs that samaritan organization, the Barnabas Fund, which tracks the persecution of Christians at the hands of Muslims, and which deserves far more attention than it has been getting in this country. He himself is originally from Pakistan, and a convert to Christianity -- in other words, he cannot be fooled about Islam, any more than Walid Shoebat, or Nonie Darwish, or Brigitte Gabriel, or Ibn Warraq, or Anwar Shaikh, or Ali Sina -- these are people who were either raised as Muslims, or raised within dar al-Islam (like Gabriel) and know that world, and its ways, and its taqiyya-and-kitman, its hysteria and hate, intimately.
Read Sookhdeo, then read again the nonsense and lies put out today by those who, yet again, in order to preserve the position of Muslims in this country, in order to further delay a right understanding of Islam, issued that phony fatwa (and think of the timing, when "methinks I see a puissant nation, rousing itself as from a long sleep..." -- well, you know the rest, and that puissant nation is not ours alone, but all the peoples and polities of the Infidel world, where some at least, possibly soon a critical mass, will prevent any relapse into the near-total indifference, or idiocy, of before, where even the editors and reporters, even the egregious Tom Friedman with his platitudes and shallow plongitudes, of both The New Duranty Times and its Washington brother-under-the-newsprint, The Bandar Beacon, will have to take account of the fact that really, and truly, some of us are quite capable on our own of studying the theory and practice of Islam, beginning with reading and re-reading Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and studying closely such works as Bat Ye'or's three books on the treatment of non-Muslims under Islam as well as her recent "Eurabia," and Robert Spencer's "Onward Muslim Soldiers," "Islam Unveiled," "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance," and the most recent on the Crusades, Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not a Muslim" and "Leaving Islam" (with his edited anthologies on early Islam for the connoisseur), and the forthcoming "The Legacy of Jihad," by Andrew Bostom. These, and other books, and articles now easily to be found on-line at the websites, especially, of Christians engaged in Answering Islam, or defectors from Islam intent on exposing the real teachings and doctrines.
We now see signs that those who a few years ago could get away with the mixture as before are truly alarmed, and are now repositionig themselves, the way Youssef Ibrahim seems to be doing, as Brave Truth-Tellers About Islam. They aren't, but the very fact that this is now going on is a sign that Muslims, especially those who wish to remain in the West, to keep their positions in foundations or at universities, who wish to keep that grant money, and those invitations to appear on Charlie Rose, are now performing a kind of mental facelift, so that their old selves, their old records of nastiness vis-a-vis the West, or Israel (though sometimes, in the latter case, they still can't bring themselves even to fake it, to talk the feigned talk), will be forgotten and they will get in on the Muslim Moderate Facing Up to the Need To Reform Islam racket -- for racket it now is.
Stick to Sookhdeo, Ibn Warraq, and all those who all along told the truth from among those who, through no fault of their own, were born into Islam.
Oh, and by the way -- do the same for the Infidels, sticking to those who never fell for any of the nonsense, never thought that the Bush Administration had to be supported in Iraq because -- well, because it was the Bush Adminstration, and Republican, and conservative, and therefore simply must be supported no matter what. Or those who flirt with the idea that this is a "war of ideas" within Islam (it isn't now, it never was) and that we should support the so-called "moderates" because they will be on their side. No they won't -- or rather, the only sane definition of a "moderate" is described by a curve that asymptotically approaches zero.
Or, in other words, keep coming back to Jihadwatch, for one-stop wisdom on the matters that currently matter most.
Posted by: Hugh at July 28, 2005 10:01 PM
It's the same strategy over all of Europe, Canada, Australia, and the U.S. Look at Dearborn for just one example. Through intimidation they have run out all non Muslims in most parts of the city - they just 'no longer feel welcome.' Now a new Saudi built supermosque, or is that a fortress for the future fifth column control and dispatch when the nonMuslims attack the Muslims? I can see where it is going. It is laying the infrastructure to fight the infidels from within. I want to know why my leaders cannot see this.
Posted by: reset at July 28, 2005 10:03 PM
Hugh, you're a dhimmi!
Posted by: Capulet at July 28, 2005 10:04 PM
I am trying to think of why, in a couple of generations time, there should not be calls for partition (or extreme separatism) and a low level sharia inspired-civil-confrontation in Britain. look to India, Nigeria, Thailand - when the Muslim population reaches critical mass, I am trying to think of what chance there is that this will not happen in Britain. And I cannot think of anything stopping it from happening - we have already had the home grown Jihadi suicide bombers.
I think of it and wonder why I can assume that we can rationalise away the basic core of a Deobanist Islamic community growing at a rapid rate, locked into a cycle of welfare dependancy, large families, separatism, self imposed poverty, riddled with Jew hatred, maddened with conspiracy theories - I see this is what we have today and I cannot see how it will improve.
Every other immigrant group or religion integrates peacefully into our society. Our tolerance and traditions suit them and they contribute - and so we thought Muslims would too. Some of them do. But there is always a core, ever growing, ever increasing, who do not.
This is not going to change - this core will not integrate. And I see perpetual struggle, perpetual hatred of our society being preached in our cities, in the Muslim ghettoes, I see demands for Sharia, beligerence, an endless conveyor belt of indigent Muslim men like Shazad Tanweer - I see all this and the right wing reaction it will provoke - I see all this and it makes me sad - so sad.
The only question is, will it happen in my lifetime? And if not, what kind of Britain will my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren be living in. When I think of this question I have to admit that the future seems bleak, coarsened and twisted for their land - I feel sadness in my soul. We should not have to think that the future will be dark for our coming generations. But the more I see and read and hear, the more I cannot escape that conclusion. I try to convince myself I am being alarmist. But I cannot hold to that anymore. It is really coming.
I keep thinking of Winston Smith and 1984.
Posted by: Zico at July 28, 2005 10:28 PM
I sent this in to Robert too, but it looks like Derbyshire beat me to it.
It looks like Dhimmiwatch is moving up in the world if someone as prominent as John Derbyshire is sending in news items for posting.
Posted by: Suzan at July 28, 2005 10:41 PM
Sookhdeo's diagnosis is excellent, but his theoretical prescription is preposterous. We should not put our safety and self-defense in the hands of quibbling theologians disputing arcane, incredibly complex points of theology.
(Has anyone noticed the amusing irony of these fatwas -- why would mainstream Muslim bodies issue fatwas against terrorists if Islam supposedly has nothing to do with terrorism? Or, if these terrorists are just extremist nutcases who have "hijacked" their religion, why would they give a damn what the mainstream Muslim clerics think?)
Posted by: metaxy at July 28, 2005 11:37 PM
The appeasers of islam are wrong, as wrong, and dangerous, as the appeasers of the nazi assh---s.
Our well meaning political and religious leaders are wrong; you cannot appease islam.
This scourge must be met head on; the content of islam is the problem, the very warp and weave of it.
Any ideology that is built around the concept of mohommed as 'the perfect work of allah', the ideal template for personkind, is unaceptable and unworthy.
mohommed was a truly evil f-ck.
Posted by: dby at July 29, 2005 1:11 AM
hutchrun,
"the entire structure is built upon the belief that Muhammad was the greatest moral example in history, and this belief is demonstrably false."
You make the error of ignoring the peculiar lexicon of Islam. In that lexicon, words have different meanings.
"peace" = the state of stability after Muslims have conquered a region and imposed Islam and dhimmitude upon its inhabitants.
"morality" = furthering the cause of Islam using whatever measures are necessary (including killing, war, torture, slavery, etc.)
By this lexicon, Mohammed was an eminently moral man.
at July 29, 2005 3:12 AM
The celebrations of this murderer's funeral should be publicised throughout the country. But no.
I have commended Patrick and Mrs Sookhdeo and the Barnabas Fund here many times. Prior to 7/7 I used to copy the Barnabas Fund monthly news and request for prayer sheet and drop copies wherever I went. Since 7/7 I have been trailing something a little more specific. But this may be something to copy and pass round quickly.
Metaxy, your definition of "peace" in Islamic terms is better than the one I have been using. Thank you.
Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at July 29, 2005 4:46 AM
Granny
Yes, I am forwarding and copying this article and spreading it far and wide too.
Posted by: Zico at July 29, 2005 5:29 AM
Stuff the BBC. We have had hours of coverage for the unfortunate Mr De Menezes & his funeral, yards of text on their website, unlimited Radio coverage - & yet when the funeral takes place in Pakistan for Britains homegrown suicide Jihadi warrior they have not mentioned it at all. Not even on their South Asia website..(funny, I don't remember them being subject to Britains TV tax, payable under threat of 3 months in Prison, yet they have a webaite paid for by the British Taxpayer.....soft? us?)
Can anyone point me at any pictures of the funeral celebrations by the Islamic fascists who gathered to pay homage to this "good British Muslim who enjoyed cricket"?
If the left wing BBC dumbs down any further, it will be in the gutter with Jihad bastards it gives a voice & tacet support to.
Posted by: albion at July 29, 2005 7:29 AM
Some more links to Patrick Sookhdeo who has also written to complain of being gagged by the Methodist Church in 2003 his response :
http://www.barnabasfund.org/News/Articles/methodist_recorder/reply.htm
Patrick Sookhdeo on Islam
Anglican priest believes the West is underestimating zeal of Islam:
http://latimer.godzone.net.nz/morecomment.asp?CoID=8
His warning on appeasing Muslims
http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=2081516684281&lang=en-US&FORM=CVRE5
Very useful information for Christians and non Christians with valuable links and information
http://www.ccn-usa.org/conference01/papers.html
at July 29, 2005 7:35 AM
Lenin said that 'peace' is when all resistance to communism stops.
Metaxy:peace" = the state of stability after Muslims have conquered a region and imposed Islam and dhimmitude upon its inhabitants.
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
There's more of this stuff, but thats enough to make the point 'Peace' Islam style...dont you think this is just a little too coincidental?
We will force 'peace' on you , if you like it or not, matters little. We will cram our 'peace' down your throat, if you have a throat left after we are done with you. The torment we give you for rejecting 'peace', is a small measure of what Allah has in store for you in the fire. And if by some chance you live, Allah willing, by our graces, you 'will' do as you are told, and you will pay that everlovin tax...Or you can recognise the superiority of Islam, the religion of 'peace', truth, beauty, and purity...and convert....and dont forget to pay that tax...
You too can be a true believer. Islam will make a 'true believer', out of you, or die trying.
Producing 'peace' where ever it goes, Islam
creates 'true believers' out of all kinds of heathens(infidels). As Allah said: "A true believer is one who does the prayers, pays the tax, bows in homage and renounces agreements with Jews".
I cant qualify right off the top...I dont have any agreements with Jews to renounce. I dont bow in homage, and I wont pay any tax...I could pray, but thats it. I fail to meet three of the four requirements for 'true believership'. I dont qualify for the 'peace' of Islam. Allah has locked me out...I better add a few more guard dogs to the pack, and a couple more gators to the moat. I might come under attack by muslims bearing 'peace' at any time...
at July 29, 2005 7:38 AM
Carolyn2:
You wouldn't happen to be thinking in particular of a rather obnoxious troll who haunts DW.org and accuses the bloggers there of being the moral equivalent of European anti-semites wouldya?
Posted by: waterdragon52 at July 29, 2005 8:31 AM
Is there any video / pictures of Shehzad Tanweer's funeral celebrations?. I want to spend the weekend sending it / them to every Englishman I know.
Posted by: albion at July 29, 2005 11:13 AM
albion:
Probably available via the usual source -- some Islamist website.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at July 29, 2005 11:37 AM
You're welcome, Granny.
duh_swami: as Paul Berman has noted, there is a common undercurrent to Communism, Nazism, Fascism and Islam (unfortunately, even Berman has to qualify Islam with an "ism" or a "radical", etc.) -- that common undercurrent they all share is a violent resistance to the imperfection of reality in the service of a violent imposition of some utopianistic model, and the use of Orwellian double-speak as a brainwashing propaganda tool.
I would add that Islam's brainwashing apparatus is far more effective and insidious than those of Communism, Nazism or Fascism. It has, among other qualities, the advantage of being able to:
a) camouflage its anti-liberal & inhuman barbarity behind a genuine religiousity & disingenuous 3rd World grievances
b) hide its simplex totalitarianism in a jungle of textual & historical complexity
c) psychologically connect tribal honor with a Super-Tribe mentality.
This last feature of (c) reflects a psychological synapse in the Muslim mind that effectively circumvents & prevents the assimilation of three other paradigms of self-understanding which the modern West has developed as sociopsychological formations that subsist in a delicate, more or less imperfect balance of tensional harmony:
1) the individual conscience;
2) the nation-state (as protector and controller of familial-tribal units);
3) all mankind.
For the muslim mind, these three do not exist, or rather, their anthropological constants (which no human being can completely repress) are ingeniously subsumed into the tribal-Umma nexus, such that: each individual becomes a functional cog in the great machine of Islam which is constantly energized by its mission to replace Mankind, locally expressed and experienced in emotions of tribal allegiance and honor, and politically travelled in temporary vehicles of nations seeking, in the intolerable circumstance of Western hegemony, to transform their humiliating Western forms into the Caliphate that will clarify and resume the global Imperialism that has been lamentably aborted by the rise of the Western Fitna engulfing Islam on all sides.
Posted by: metaxy at July 29, 2005 1:11 PM
Metaxy:
An excellent postscript to duh_swami's post.
Posted by: waterdragon52 at July 29, 2005 1:16 PM
Expulsion of Muslims is the only answer.
The more we coddle, hedge and hand-wring, the more deadly this problem grows by the minute.
You think me too harsh perhaps in my postings here? But what then will the contrast be for our Western countries and their collective inaction -- be it in a year, five years, or ten?
The consequences of failing to address the evil in our midst will make my advice today look like rose petals tomorrow.
Don't make me a soothsayer. I don't want to predict the future. I want to see action today.
Sometimes the Truth is so damn obvious, nobody sees it because they are too afraid to stare it in the face.
Stop being good, little Dhimmis and speak out to your leaders. Speak out to your friends and neighbors. Open eyes.
Like it or not, the fight is upon us.
Posted by: Foehammer at July 29, 2005 1:28 PM
Hugh, excellant post.
Every mosque in the West that preaches death to the infidel should be closed down and bulldozed.Tantamount to sedition. Immams to be arrested and deported.
Almost every mosque in the West that is not monitored (taqiyya servings), preaches death to the infidel, ergo......
at July 29, 2005 1:37 PM
Hehe he he
What a frustration. What ever you say. You cannot do anything. It is like water is flowing and you are trying to stop it. Say the bitting words but it wont help anything to you. Say anything to our prophet but people have been witnessing his success during and after his life. He defeated many people who led him out of his home. He conquered Makkah and then there was no massacre. Can you not see what is it in your comments. Only a frustration and hate.
We as a muslim will tell our children to follow Mohammad and you cannot stop us any of you. Not even with your sophesticated weapons or your UNO.
So try hard to remove your frustration but it wont help. Na NA na
When you people are saying bad to us it shows your frustration and nothing else.
bye bye bye.
Posted by: he_man at July 29, 2005 3:33 PM
He man lays an egg then leaves...It's not hatred and frustration, He_man...It's accurate observation and diagnosis before the magickal sword of the infidels raises itself against the cancerous Islam, and cuts away the unwanted. There's plenty that can be done to stem the tide of Islamic creeping meatballism...
We know the true history of your Prophet , so lying about his glories wont help you...Islam has been beaten down before and Islam will be beaten down again...
at July 29, 2005 4:26 PM
duh_swami, I am not saying this. The link above given by some of your partner(breadwinner). Either you are saying wrong or He(breadwinner) is wrong. Decide which one of you on your side is wrong.
The website said:
1. Islam emerged in Arabia, a region once hemmed in by the Christian Byzantine Empire and the Jewish influenced Persian Empire.
http://www.ccn-usa.org/conference01/sookhdeo1.html
This link is not mine, it is from your side. Hehehehe
First tell me about 1400 years have passed this region is still in Muslim hands. Hehehe
So who has till now won. You people went to the other end of the world that is called USA. You people massacred the natives there(so called indians) to settle your white man rule. Now tell us who were massacred. RedIndians so that white man can rule or native arabs or persians where islam is still followed by natives.
Both people either arabs or persians are strong in favor of islam and there is no way for you to again get the grip of arab minds. If islam was or is so bad how come it is penetrating and surviving so long. How come the whole world is helpless in eliminating it. How come islam was there when there was no USSR and still it is there when there is no USSR. How come ISLAM was there when there is no USA and still it is there when USA is there. May be USA will go but ISLAM will be there.
So I dont see any logic in saying that ISLAM is going anywhere.
Second If ISLAM is just as like what you are saying. So what? It is like that, do your worst, if you can. I know, no one here can do anything.
Anyway by even knowing that you people are helpless, I again say you "Peace to you all if you are really serious in having a peace with us. Since peace is from both sides."
We can only talk and those who from yourside and from Muslim sides are fighting they are fighting and we on this website cannot have guts to stop that fighting between these two parties. That is we and our talk are still useless.
To gain a peace between two parties both parties must respect each other. But on this website I see no respect from your side and this makes me to think that:
Why ISLAM is to blame when we see lot of hate in this website agaisnt ISLAM.
Why we should think of peace if the people here on this website want to either nuke or kill or convert muslims.
So again and again. and again.
Peace to only those who want peace for others.
at July 29, 2005 6:50 PM
Zico posted: What do you think, fellow British readers?
Very alarming but well known to me for 25 years or more. I have tried to warn anyone who would care to listen, both here in Britain and the US, that immigration of muslims poses a deadly threat to all that we hold dear. A threat to civilisation. I was listened with polite amusement. So the Rusdhie affair came as no surprise - just another stage in the extinction of one of the cherished values of the West. In fact the most cherished of all.
Posted by: DP111 at July 29, 2005 8:10 PM
Dont pertent to be so innocent. What type of play ground you are providing on this form is what type of play we have to play.
If you play a good game then there will be no reason for us to say bad or be bad. But look at yourselves and your comments. If we say anything little bad you say look at it look at it. If you say hate and killing stuff it is not a part of bad thing.
It shows that you people are only caring for yourself and you people can justify killing of anyone in case of your suspecious nature. Or I may say if your wealth is blocked.
Bye bye bye. It is you, in majority, in this website who is engage in daily saying bad and inciting hatred not us, I mean muslims.
So tell lie as you can but you better know if someone start to cheat in a game that shows that he knows that he is going to loose. I am really starting to think that you people are smart enogh to think to cheat.
So cheat cheat and say lie it does not bother us.
bye bye bye
at July 29, 2005 8:18 PM
Zico:
I agree with you and have posted along similar lines here at JW/DW. The West will not be an exception to what has happened consistently - India, Bosnia, Greece/Turkey, Ethiopia/Eritrea etc etc. There is no reason whatever that similar partitions will not occur in the West. Yugoslavia was the latest example of that. The tragedy is that in Europe, it will lead to a war of unimaginable magnitude.
It is for this reason that I advocated an exchange of populations, muslims over here for the persecuted Christians in muslim nations. Such exchanges of populations have occurred several times in recent history, and are not considered illegal. Even the UN has helped in implementing such an exchange. This gets round the ethnic cleansing argument.
If that is not feasible, then a "Separation" from the world of islam is another possibility. Separation recognises, that at this moment in time, Islam and democracy are irreconcilable. Thus a separation leaves hope for the future for everybody. This is important, as muslims like all humans will reach a stage in their social development, when they do indeed welcome democracy and pluralism. It is just that at this stage in their history, they are not ready for it. A war, which is where we are headed, will stop that progress, as well as cause a split within humanity, that will be hard to patch up. A civil war in Europe is the worst thing one can have. Europe's civil wars (WWI and II)have not been powder-puff affairs, and this commenter just does not wish to see that come.
"Hope" is very important for all of humanity.
at July 29, 2005 9:05 PM
"he_man", the only reason your false prophet conquered Meccca was because he surrounded it with the army of criminals he had been raiding caravans with and the citizens of Mecca had no choice but to surrender or die. Mohammed was a liar and a murderer and is burning in pig fat in hell as we speak.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 9:38 PM
"he_man" you mean cheating like when you know you're not winning so you fly planes into buildings to kill women and children? Like when you know you're a loser from a third world oil rich nation and have to come to the West to get a decent standard of living and an education? Like when your holy book tells you you are superior and specially chosen but you are cleaning toilets for a living? Like when your holy book says the sun sets in a muddy pool and every educated person laughs at you because they know you worship a flase god and a false prophet? Like when you lust after Western women who won't give you the time of day and you fantasize about having 72 virgins from some pimp god who runs a heavenly wheorehouse for his followers? Like that? Spoken like a true loser, she_man. LOL! We are laughing our a**e* off at your attempts to speak English! LOL! You have to learn our language, we don't have to learn yours, loser. Here's a new phrase for you: "Would you like fries with that?"
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 9:55 PM
Bohemond_1069
Hah Look at yourself, the way you talk. You are not worth talking. But anyway. If you are a chritian. Can I say more things for your respected personalities. But I dont Like these kind of cheap games.
I may only say that he conquered Makka peacefully and he had the power to kill everyone but he did not do it. Read the history what conditions he said to his army.
About bible for this incident
Deuteronomy 33
33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
10000 are the exact number those were with the mohammad when he conquered makka (paran).
Paran is a mountain range in Makka. It is mentioned in the Torah (Genesis, 21.19-21) as the area in the desert where Hagar was left by her husband Abraham, upon him be peace, to live with her son, Ishmael. The well of Zamzam appeared in it. As is stated explicitly in the Qur’an (14.35–7), Abraham left Hagar and Ishmael in the valley of Makka, which was then an uninhabited place within the mountain ranges of Paran.
So say anything that you like. But we are not going anywhere from this world. You people could not stop mohammad when he was alone and now he has many followers of him so no chance for you guys.
at July 29, 2005 10:10 PM
Bohemond_1069
You mean creature,
We are laughing our a**e* off at your attempts to speak English! LOL! You have to learn our language, we don't have to learn yours, loser.
so I atleast made your a**e* off the place. Hah.
Secondly you cannot learn my language. That is a disabiblity of your mind.
Third if you could isolate yourself from us, you would have done it long time ago. YOu must come to our land sniffing like a dog to get the oil so that your economy can stand up otherwise heheheheheh
you know what I mean.
You sniffed the oil out of our land like a dog. Today I see many people from your country in shorts doing it infront of our house. I mean it sniffing like a dog in hot summer.
at July 29, 2005 10:17 PM
Bohemond_1069
You talked about western women,
Dont laugh or think that I cannot take them,
There are lot of oppurtunities for these creatures to sell themselves to rich man in your countries. You know better than me. Especially for foriegners they are desparate since they know that foriegners have more money then natives. You lawfully allow your women to sell themselves as service. and foriegners use this service at will. So as a foriegner, I may or I may not use this service at will. You must not be worried about this. If I will need you, I will call you junior to help me in finding a really good service. So junior go and sit on that table till i call you.
at July 29, 2005 10:24 PM
She_man, LOL! A "chritian"? I'm not familiar with that demonination. You so funny, Mohammedan! LOL! Your prophet lied. And you are stupid enough to believe him. What was his "seal of prophethood" A big hairy mole on his back! LOL! Give me a prophecy from the Quran. You can't because your "prophet" didn't make any prophecies. Who did his wife go to when he thought he had talked with the devil in the cave to tell him he had talked with an angel? A fortune teller! A witch! God has only allowed Islam to be raised up so he can destroy it, just as God did with Egypt when God took the Israelites out of Egypt. Read the bible, the book of Revelation. The (Muslim) tribes surrounding the Jews will be completely destroyed. That's you and your children fool! Your Quran says Allah has no sons. Makes sense since Allah is a rock. Jesus said God was His father. Your holy book says Jesus did not die on the cross, but Jesus prophesied he would die on the cross and be raised up on the third day. You ahve a problem. If Jesus is the Messiah and a prophet of God, then He could never have made a false prophecy. If His prophecy is true, then the Quran is wrong. Which is it?
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 10:28 PM
I happen to speak 3 foreign languages abeed. You offered up your oil and your women and children like a fat pimp. We only took the oil. If it weren't for us you would still be eating sand and humping camels. Your women don't have to sell themselves to us, they offer themselves freely. They want to be with winners, not losers. You might have enough money to buy a magazine and masturbate to pictures of Western women, but a real one? LOL! You So funny Mohammedan!
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 10:33 PM
BTW Mohammedan, you and your kind will never tell me or any American what to do, so stick it where the sun don't shine and pack some sand in for good measure. We are free men, not bred to be slaves like you are to your Quran.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 10:41 PM
Bohemond_1069
If you are free then why cannot you freely move all over the world. Whereever you go fear goes with you.
Hahahaha
Like other things, We dont believe in slavery that is why I did not count the western women who offer themselves in the name of love or entertainment.
Oh i forgot that even your men are capable of entertaining the people,espacially foriegners. I think you know better then me. Hahahah
oh boy oh boy dont make me laugh. about magazine and masturbate. hahahah how long have you been doing this stuff. grow up man or hahahah
hahahah
Oh I forgot your boss asked you to come to please him.
go and please him with your efforts. It is all what western freedom is.
Posted by: he_man at July 29, 2005 10:49 PM
Bohemond_1069
For Jesus (peace be upon him). You said he is son of God.
I could have many question unanswered.
Lets take GOD SON equation.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
Now come to mercy.
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
If Jesus mercy is greater than GOD mercy. Or what. Because what GOD did make his son get sacrificed for the sins of his creature. If GOD is more merciful than any of the mother in this world then he could have forgiven anyone before his son got to the crusification.
So please balance the equation. Either GOD does not have any mercy more than any mother on this world or Jesus was not crucified. Thirld Jesus died with crucification that was considered the humiliating death then why a GOD wanted this for his son even if he had the power to forgive everyone and be close to human without this thing going to happen.
at July 29, 2005 11:09 PM
Sorry for the delay she_man, I was making a ham sandwich. Mohammedan, I fear no man, especially a lowly female slave like you. But you sound like you know all about pleasing your boss. I bet you're an expert at that, huh? Had lots of experience licking his boots, have you? LOL! HeHeHE! That's what you get for believing your book of lies and the lies of your Imams. Every time you open your mouth you flaunt your ignorance for all to see. That is why the world laughs at you Mohammedans. HeHeHeHeHe. So you don't believe in slavery? So you admit that Mohammed was wrong to have slaves? Muslim countries still have slavery, we all know it. We know about taqiyyah, how Mohammedan dogs all lie like their father Mohammed did. Defend your religion if you can, Mohammedan. Isn't that what your Quran commands? Are so ignorant as to be unable to defend your beliefs? Tell me how Mohammed is a true prophet and how the Quran has prophecies that proves it as God requires in Deuteronomy.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 11:11 PM
"For Jesus (peace be upon him). You said he is son of God." No. I said that Jesus said God is His Father. Jesus called God "My Father" in many places in the New Testament. In John 3:16 it says that "God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life". When Jesus was baptized God proclaimed "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased." The Jews understood that by making that statement Jesus made himself co-equal with God. That is why they wanted to kill him. In John 20:17 Jesus was God in a human, physical body. God is Lord of all Men, even when He is in a human body. Can you understand something so simple? Did not God require Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice? Did not God postpone that requirement and give Abraham a substitute, a male sheep, a ram? If Jesus is savior, why do you think it so incredible that He should be able to save Himself? God did not limit himself by being in Jesus body. He was simultaneously in Heaven and on earth. Why do you attempt to limit God by saying there is that which he cannot do, that is, take human form?
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 11:24 PM
"So please balance the equation." Jesus has already done that. He died on the cross, a humiliating, cursed death in order to take on the sins of the world. That was the only way God could wipe out mankind's sins for all time and allow man to enter into heaven. The sacrifices of the Old Testament could never wipe away sin, which is why they had to be offered over and over. The rituals of Moses' law could not make man perfect. Nowhere in the Old Testament does it say that keeping the law makes you perfect. Just the opposite! Keeping the law convicts you of sin because it points out how imperfect man is compared to God's perfect righteousness. Noone ever kept the law perfectly except Jesus. That is why we need a perfect sacrifice, a savior. Jesus took on our sins on the cross and paid the price we should have paid as sinners.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 11:33 PM
Bohemond_1069
He he he, Bark man Bark. Did'nt I tell you. You look good when barking. ABout the filth, you should bark like that since it shows your teaching and growth according to your religion. Why are you asking stupid childish questions.
Anyway for your asked proves. I may ask something from you. It is you who asked me to do this things. Let the game start man.
how can you prove that Jesus(peace be upon him) was from a virgin, pure, respected, lady Marrium(my life may get sacrificed for her and her honour)???? I believe in that. But you are asking prove, then first prove this.
How can you prove that Jesus(peace be upon him) and bible are the words of god while there are lot of mistakes in Bible?
_________________________________________
1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
* God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
* Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)
2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
* Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
* One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)
____________________________________________
So man if it is called faith then I may also say that it is my faith in ISLAM. And mind you not my faith but faith of more than 1,902,095,000 people in this world those are muslim.
Anyway if you are really interested in finding the truth then you can find the answers on internet. Just as you found lot of bad things about islam on internet, you may use it to find the positive points on internet too.
If you are serious then you can find it. But I know you are only killing time here.
Bye bye bye. wash your face boy. It is sweating with frustration.
at July 29, 2005 11:38 PM
I tell you again. If Jesus was a false prophet then the Quran is wrong in calling Him a prophet. If all Jesus's prophecies were true, (which is God's requirement for a true prophet as outlined in Deuteronomy 18:20-22) then He died on the cross and rose again as He said he would and the Quran is wrong. Which is correct?
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 11:39 PM
God is Lord of all Men, even when He is in a human body. Can you understand something so simple?
No man please tell me. I want to understand this equation.
First tell me If GOD(Yahweh) was human or Son(Jesus) was human.
Second, Tell me man, if GOD owns the whole universe or not?
Third, why GOD need to secrific his son while he owns the whole universe and has the power to forgive everyone??
Did not God require Abraham to offer his son as a sacrifice?
So in this case GOD is at so low level to be Like Abraham??? The sacrific of GOD and Sacrific of Abraham? My point is Abraham did it without interest. But GOD here seems to be doing it in somee interest. So the intention of Abraham is more pure as a love than GOD. So GOD looses here.???
Please clear these point if you can.
And this time thank you for not spitting filth from your mouth.
Posted by: he_man at July 29, 2005 11:48 PM
My face is dry fool, and I am more that old enough to be your father, maybe even your grandfather. I do not take insults from children who name themselves after cartoon characters. I have told you the truth, and the truth is Jesus died for your sins. If you reject it for the lies of the Quran, then God will deal with you appropriately on the day of judgement. LOL! The numbers game! LOL! God does not care how many people are Muslim, atheist, Buddhist, or whatever. How many Nazis were there in WWII? Did that matter? Did it matter how many Communists there were in Russia? Did it matter to God that the people in Jerico outnumbered the Jews? Who cares how many Muslims are in third world countries or living in European ghettos? Jesus asked "Who do you say I am?" Jesus said "I am the (only) Way, the (only) Truth, and the (only) Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." You say I have found "bad things" about Islam. Is that my fault or Islam's? You cannot say these things are false, because you know they are true. They are in your Quran and hadiths. ..."if you are really interested in finding the truth then you can find the answers on internet". So you admit you cannot find the truth in your Quran? You have failed to defend the charges I have brought against your Quran and your prophet, abeed. You have failed Allah. I wish you were saved, I would like to meet you in heaven, but I fear I will see you on the other side of the abyss, begging for water in the lake of fire.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 30, 2005 12:01 AM
Bohemond_1069
First of all, I am happy that you are older so we can talk seriously. Now If you are really counting on our discussion for being true and false than we can start one by one discussion. Ok
I told you of "internet" since you asked so many question in one line with fithy languages.
Now if you are serious, we may have a decent discussion and with respect. If it will be ok then we can question and answer one by one.
ok
For finging Truth in Quran I may easily say that my believe on Mohammad and ALLAH becomes more stronger as I study Quran and sunnah. I am true in my claim. Since I am not a very very religious man but i can easily say that who has the knowledge of Quran and Hadith must be a perfect man.
So we can start a conversation with mutual respect. I am bound to respect you now since you are older than me but you please maintain this status of being older like my grandfather. Ok
at July 30, 2005 12:09 AM
Bohemond_1069
You wrote:
"I tell you again. If Jesus was a false prophet then the Quran is wrong in calling Him a prophet. If all Jesus's prophecies were true, (which is God's requirement for a true prophet as outlined in Deuteronomy 18:20-22) then He died on the cross and rose again as He said he would and the Quran is wrong. Which is correct?"
My Answer:
No, it is not correct. First mistake is that Jesus all prophecies were true, there is no question about it. But But But! We dont have any evidence of the true nature of Bible. Bible have lot of mistakes and as a muslim and even as a Christian we both can agree upon that there are something those you will call as human error.
So your this argument, can be answer with the above sentences.
If you have any doubts please tell me.
Posted by: he_man at July 30, 2005 12:14 AM
"No man please tell me. I want to understand this equation."
So you admit there is something your Quran cannot reveal to you? It is simple: God is not limited to be in one place, as humans are. God is in heaven and on earth as Jesus at the same time. God is not a man, but His Son took on human form to offer Himself as a sacrifice for all men. God could force all men to be saved, but that would not rule out free choice adn make us robots, not men. If a man rejects God, does he deserve God's mercy? Should God reward someone who rejects Him? Jesus paid the price for all men's sins once, for all time. If a man rejects Jesus sacrifice on the cross, then he places himself in God's judgement and God is compelled to judge him accordingly.
"So in this case GOD is at so low level to be Like Abraham??? "
The Old testament says that Abraham was a man after God's own heart. So a man declared righteous by God is at a low level???
"My point is Abraham did it without interest." So you think Abraham was not interested in the sacrifice of his son? That is one of the most stupid things I ever heard! the bible makes it plain that Abraham loved his son, but he loved God more.
"thank you for not spitting filth from your mouth."
Insult me and you will get as good as you give.
at July 30, 2005 12:16 AM
Bohemond_1069
How many Nazis were there in WWII? Did that matter? Did it matter how many Communists there were in Russia?
For me it matters. Tell me NAzis were majority supported by Christian believers. So the sins of that Nazis were already forgiven with jesus(peace be upob him). Now what will happen to those crimes they did to human kind.
Will their fate not be the same as Communists. My point is NAZIS were following nazism but their belief was Christian. Most of them were christians. Will GOD not punish them for what they did since their sins were forgiven by Jesus (peace be upon him)
at July 30, 2005 12:20 AM
He –Man
Plagiarising the Torah will get you short shrift on this site.
Deuteronomy 33
33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them
This is the second verse of the blessing of Moses on the Israelites upon his realization that he would never see the Promised Land and was about to die. It has no meaning with regard to Islamic mythology. The Desert of Paran may very well be on the Sinai Peninsula
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/20020429.htm
but it is NOWHERE near Mecca, which is on the coast, you should be looking at an area north between Riyadh and Kuwait.
Mohammed lied to you and your forbears and he is in Hell, the people he murdered and raped are witnesses against him before the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the father of Jesus Christ.
How can you get to heaven when the Commandments condemn Islam and the teachings of Jesus are the antithesis to Mohammed’s shameful and sinful life? How can you appear at the resurrection as a Muslim who has practised Jihad of the sword, and who has taken part in the killing of defenceless and innocent people? It is impossible because the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the father of Our lord Jesus Christ has explicitly denounced the actions of Mohammed, these denunciations are carried into the New Testament by Jesus Our Lord when he “dotted the I’s and crossed the t’s” in his fulfilling the commandments.
Accept the Bible as the WORD of God accept Jesus as the WORD made flesh or receive the Judgement that destroys the soul, because you have called God a LIAR, and counted his Son’s offering on the cross as NOTHING, are you willing to stand before the Righteous Judge and deceive yourself that Mohammed will speak for you, Mohammed is in HELL and those who follow jihad of the sword will see him there !
at July 30, 2005 12:26 AM
I am over 50years old, if it matters. Respect gets respect.
Let's start from here then:
You said:"First mistake is that Jesus all prophecies were true, there is no question about it. But But But! We dont have any evidence of the true nature of Bible."
Ok that is something we both agree on. All Jesus's prophecies are true. We can start from here. I 'm going to bed now, it's late where I am, and I have some family comittments tomorrow, but I will do my best to meet you here and post here again tomorrow night, or the morning after, ok?
at July 30, 2005 12:27 AM
You said:
So you admit there is something your Quran cannot reveal to you?
My Answer:
Where is my admittance? I wanted to ask your theory. It does not mean that i dont get the answer from quran. In quran, I got more logical answers and the just one then I am getting from you.
You said:
God is in heaven and on earth as Jesus at the same time. God is not a man, but His Son took on human form to offer Himself as a sacrifice for all men.
MY answer:
Please correctly answer me that, There is no one GOD in christianity. I mean Jesus is not Yahweh.??? or both are same.
I need this answer so that we can really go further.
Secondly dont think that I have not heard all these things before. But as a matter of conversation we must do it so that neither me nor you can divert from our claim after sometime.
at July 30, 2005 12:28 AM
breadwinner
hey I can give you the whole cut and paste like you did. But it is long time now. So I must also leave. And For being enemy of Mohammad as you are. I think you will also go to hell just as you are claiming for him and me.
Leave it to your god or i will leave it on my god. meeting you on day of judment.
I will not pray for you to get the right path and you should not pray for me for the right path.
I pray we both must see the judment of our conversation on that day by GOD of that day and one must go to hell. Ok
Deal
Ok
????
at July 30, 2005 12:33 AM
he_man, Hitler was baptized as a Catholic, but there is no evidence he ever practiced that religion. Many people who said they were Christians supported Hitler at first, then later backed away from him. A man can say he is a Christian or Muslim, but only God knows what is in a man's heart. The point I was trying to make is that God isn't impressed by numbers. God chose Abraham even though he was the smallest tribe, right? God does not need man's help, large armies, etc. God can do whatever He wants. He is in the miracle business.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 30, 2005 12:36 AM
Ok. tomorrow or the next day then. Good night, sleep well. Yes, there is one God, not just for Christians but He is God of all. In that sense we are all His "children". Not in the physical sense. He manifests Himself in three personages: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Just as an egg has shell, yolk and white. Still all egg, all one, yet distinct and seperate. This is the "mystery" the bible speaks of. Good night.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 30, 2005 12:42 AM
breadwinner
So check your claims from here if you like.
http://answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
http://answering-christianity.com/ahmed_deedat_muh_bible.htm
The liberation of Mecca (Paran) by 10,000 Muslims in the Bible:
Let us look at the following Verse from the King James Version Bible: "And Enoch [Idris in Arabic, one of Allah Almighty's Prophets peace be upon all of them to the people of Israel.] also, the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14-15)"
Let us also look at the following Verse: "And he said, The LORD came from Si'-nai, and rose up from Se'-ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Pa'-ran [Mecca in Arabic], and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. (The King James Version Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)" According to Islam's history, when Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his followers faced hostility from the people of Mecca (Paran), they had to leave the city. They fled to the City of "Yathrib" which was called later "Madina" where Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him continued to spread Islam to all of the Arabs and then later to the countries near by.
(Click here) See Proof that "Paran" in the Bible is "Mecca".
When Islam became complete and the number of the Muslims grew up, Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him decided to liberated the Holy City of Mecca, the city of our beloved father Abraham the father of Ishmael and Isaac peace be upon all of them who built the black cube building of Kaaba in the same city, the Holy House of GOD Almighty.
The army of the Muslims that conquered Mecca without any blood shed (peacefully) were exactly 10,000 men (From the book of "Muhammad the Prophet" by Maulana Muhammad Ali, pages 128-129). The Bible calls them "ten thousands of saints".
Also, the movie "The Message", which talks about the life of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, mentions that Mecca was liberated by 10,000 Muslim men.
As brother Abdul Haleem mentions below:
"Muhammad In World Scriptures," Volume I, Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi (New USA Edition, 1999), p. 73.
"Paran" is a biblical name for the part of Arabia called Hejaz where prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was born. When prophet Ishmael and his mother were driven out by Sarah; they settled in the "Wilderness of Paran" (Genesis, 21:21). Prophet Ishmael happens to be the progenitor of prophet Muhammad [pbuh]. . . ."Muhammad [pbuh] In the Bible," Mohd Elfi Nieshaem Juferi, http://members.xoox.com/_XMCM/lordxarkun/Islam/habakkuk.html.
Internet links that have references and proofs of the 10,000 Muslim men liberating the city of Mecca in the Islamic history:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/tenthousand.htm
http://www.alislam.org/library/history/chap13.htm
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/prophets/biblemuh.htm
http://global.globale.net/~heritage/histoire/history03/history328.html
It's quite interesting to see how the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament predicts this event to occur in the city of Paran (Mecca).
Two questions for Jews and Christians:
If the prophecies above from the Bible were not referring to our beloved Prophet peace be upon him and his army, then who else are they referring to?
Would you please bring me one Christian or Jewish event that took place in the Holy City of Paran (Mecca), or any city or event in the Bible that involved 10,000 Christian or Jewish saints? I searched and asked found nothing!
The Biblical number 10,000, and the Prophecy of the 10,000 men of GOD Almighty executing the Judgement of GOD in an ungodly place is only linked to Prophet Muhammad and Islam.
Embrace Islam and you will be saved!
Further from brother Haleem, a new convert to Islam; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
Notes from me, Osama Abdallah, regarding using SONG OF SONG 5:10: As to using SONG OF SONGS 5:10 below to show that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was foretold, the reason why I posted it is because the ENGLISH Bibles had been known to be NOTORIOUS in mistranslation [1] [2] [3].
Also please visit: Obvious mistranslations of the Hebrew Manuscripts. See proofs of alterations and deceptions done by the Jews and Christians to disprove Islam in the Bible.
I wanted to introduce the possibility that the book of Song of Songs was either:
1- Altered and much of the porn was added to it as the NIV Bible's theologians themselves clearly admit:
From www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm:
The book of Song of Songs:
"Verse 1 appears to ascribe authorship to Solomon. Solomon is referred to seven times, and several verses speak of the 'king', but whether he was the author remains an open question. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 997)"
"Two lovers, Solomon and a Shulamite girl, express their feelings for one another, with occasional comments made by friends. (From the King James Version Commentary, page 945)"
2- The book was mistranslated from the original Hebrew, and GOD Almighty still preserved His Divine Revelations in it, if it was indeed GOD Almighty's True Revelations.
Because the bible is weird and corrupt, then it is only normal to see strange ways to seek out the Truth in it. I care about the Bible and I want to know the Truth from falsehood in it. That is why I decided to post this piece on my site, because SONG OF SONGS 5:10 below so strangely refers to "THE UNCLE", not the lover in the Hebrew letter. It is also weird to find the word "MUHAMMAD" in it as well.
So could it be possible that the whole letter could've been mistranslated? Or man's alterations had entered it, which explains why we have so much graphic porn in this book. Only time will tell.
Anyway, here is brother Abdul Haleem's article....
It is a well-established tradition, that:
The Prophet [pbuh] left Medina [for Mecca] in the company
of ten thousand in Ramadan.
Saheeh Bukhari, 5:574, emphasis added.
In both Old and New Testaments - despite the corrupted nature of the texts - the appearance of Muhammad with an army of 10,000 is prophesied. In Deuteronomy 33:2, the appearance of a prophet with "ten thousands of saints" is predicted by Moses:
And he said The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto
them; he shined forth from Mount Paran, and he came with ten
thousands of saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Bible (King James Version), Deuteronomy 33:2, emphasis added.
That this reference is to the prophet Muhammad [pbuh] is unmistakable:
"Paran" is a biblical name for the part of Arabia called Hejaz
where prophet Muhammad [pbuh] was born. When prophet
Ishmael and his mother were driven out by Sarah; they settled
in the "Wilderness of Paran" (Genesis, 21:21). Prophet Ishmael
happens to be the progenitor of prophet Muhammad [pbuh]. . . .
"Muhammad [pbuh] In the Bible," Mohd Elfi Nieshaem Juferi, http://members.xoox.com/_XMCM/lordxarkun/Islam/habakkuk.html.
Not only the history of the Israelite prophets, but the
annals of the world point out but one person - that of the Holy
Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] as being the holy one accompanied
by ten thousand saints. . . .
"Muhammad In World Scriptures," Volume I, Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi (New USA Edition, 1999), p. 73, emphasis added.
In order to obscure this prophecy, the New Living Translation, Douay and some other English translations of the Bible, purposely mistranslate Deuteronomy 33:2, to eliminate all references to "ten thousand."
Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi comments on this mistranslation as follows:
There is an important word ribeboth - which occurs in the text
which we have translated as ten thousands. This word has
occurred at many places in the books of the Prophets, and is derived
ribboth which means ten thousands. The dictionary A Hebrew
and English Lexicon by Gesenius and Brown has shown ribboth
to mean a myriad, ten thousands, and shte-ribboth to mean
twice ten thousand. Sometimes ribboth is used without the final
letter th with the same meaning. [see e.g. 1 Chronicles, 29:7; Ezra, 2:64;
Niemiah, 7:66, all using ribbo]
Id., at p. 74, emphasis in original, footnotes and Hebrew text omitted, footnote 97 partially reproduced in ellipses.
Significantly , in both the New Living Translation and Douay Bible, 1 Chronicles 29:7, which talks about offerings of "ten thousand darics gold" and "ten thousand talents of silver," the Hebrew number term that is not translated "ten thousand" in Deuteronomy 33:2 is translated as "ten thousand."
It also should be noted that the Revised Standard Bible, Websters Bible, World English Bible and New American Standard all include the number "ten thousand" in their translations of Deuteronomy 33:2.
Todays English Version attempts to obscure the prophecy contained in Deuteronomy 33:2 another way, by translating the Hebrew as saying "ten thousand angels," rather than "ten thousand saints."
Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi also has commented on this mistranslation:
The next important word in this regard is qodesh, which is now
being translated into angels. Its primary meaning is pure and holy and
is applied to every pure and holy thing, person or people or even to a place,
e.g. admath-qodesh, [Exodus 3:5] holy ground; meqom-ha-qodesh, [Leviticus,
10:7] holy place; am-ha-qodesh, [Daniel 12;7] holy people; har-qodeshi,
[Psalms 2;6] my holy hill.
Hence, me-ribeboth-qodesh, according to the dictionary and usage of the Bible means with then thousands of saints.
"Muhammad In World Scriptures," supra, at p. 74, emphasis in original, footnotes omitted, footnotes 98, 99, 100 and 101 reproduced in ellipses.
Here, again, most English translations of the Bible agree that the "ten thousand" are "saints" or "holy ones," not "angels." See e.g. Revised Standard Version ("holy ones"); Websters Bible ("saints"); New American Standard ("holy ones"); Douay ("saints").
The predictions of a Prophet appearing with a host of "ten thousand saints" are repeated in the New Testament.
In Jude 1:14-15, Jude writes of a then-unfulfilled prophecy by Enoch [Idris in the Arabic, see Quran, 19:56-57]:
It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from
Adam prophesied, saying, "See, the Lord came with ten thousands
of his saints, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of
all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed
in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which
ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Bible (The New Revised Standard Version), Jude 1:14-15, emphasis added.
This prophecy of Enoch clearly refers to the Holy Prophet [pbuh] for the following reasons:
1. Only the Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] had ten thousand
saints with him. We have shown elsewhere that these saints accompanied
the Prophet [pbuh] at the conquest of Makka.
2. The Holy Prophet [pbuh] executed judgment upon all the
unbelievers at the conquest of Makka and convinced ungodly Makkans
of their ungodly deeds.
3. The Christians kept waiting for the coming of the Lord
even after Christ had come, for this epistle of Jude was written long
after Christ and the Christians knew that it referred to come other
personage who, from the time of the Prophet Enoch up to the time
of Christ, had not appeared. The prophecy was therefore clearly for
the Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] and for none else.
"Muhammad In World Scriptures," supra, at p. 24.
Because of the clarity of this prophecy, many of the English translations of the Bible purposely obscure it, by omitting the number reference to "ten thousand" or by claiming that the prophet announced was accompanied by "angels" rather than "saints" or "holy ones." See New Living Testament, Todays English Version, Douay, and New American Standard.
However, the King James and New Revised Standard Version translate the passage in Jude 1:14 as referring to "ten thousands of his saints" (King James) or "ten thousands of his holy ones" (New Revised Standard).
An examination of the original Greek supports the latter interpretation:
The word translated "ten thousand" is murias, which in Greek usually means "ten thousand," though it may also mean "an innumerable multitude" or :innumerable hosts." Strongs Concordance, No. 3461.
The word mistranslated in Todays English Version as "angels" is hagios which means in Greek "most holy thing" or "saint," not "angel." Strongs Concordance, No. 40.
Once we get past the deliberate mistranslations of Deuteronomy 33:2 and Jude 1:14-15, we find that these prophecies not only refer unequivocally to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) , but that they are corroborative of the much-discussed prophecy in Song of Songs, 5:10-16.
According to the well-researched work of Mohd Elfi Nieshaem Juferi and Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi, the original Hebrew version of Song of Songs 5:16, if correctly translated, predicts the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) by name:
His mouth is most: yea, he is MUHAMMAD. This is my
(paternal) UNCLE, and this is my COMRADE, O daughters
of Jerusalem.
"Muhammad [pbuh] In the Bible," supra, http://members.xoox.com_XMCM/lordxarkun/Islam/songs5_10-16.html, emphasis in original; see also "Muhammad In World Scriptures," supra, at pp. 100-111.
Significantly, in Song of Songs 5:10, this same prophet - expressly identified in the Hebrew as "Muhammad," is described as being "the chiefest among ten thousands" (ibid., emphasis added) (King James Version).
This reference to the "ten thousands" indicates that the Prophet referred to must be the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)!
Further sites to research:
See Proof that "Paran" in the Bible is "Mecca".
Back to Prophet Muhammad mentioned and foretold by the name in the Bible.
Posted by: he_man at July 30, 2005 12:52 AM
breadwinner
__________________________________________
I am leaving now. May be some other day.
__________________________________________
I believe in only One GOD and he is merciful and he will forgive me on that day. I will prefer to live my life with more logical thoughs and with more authentic believes.
For me I believe in what I am saying down.
I witness that there is only one GOD that is ALLAH and Mohammad is prophet, He believed in the same GOD what the other prophets like ibrahim, moses, haroon, david, suleman, noah, jesus, adam had believed in. I believe in Judgement day, and on that day GOD(ALLAH) will judge everyone according to his deads. No one will take the responsibility or punishment on others behalf. There will be lot of people who will be forgiven because of the mercy of ALLAH.
Only those who are believing in more than one GOD will have to go to hell for ever. So Oneness of GOD is important for me.
GOD is judge and mercifull.
Oh "breadwinner", get ready for that day, believe in what you are believing and I will believe in what I am believing so that atleast one of us can go to hell that day. I am stick to my religion. YOu must stick to your religion. Judgment will be by GOD on that day.
Till then bye for now. I must go to sleep now.
at July 30, 2005 1:00 AM
breadwinner
hey I can give you the whole cut and paste like you did. But it is long time now. So I must also leave. And For being enemy of Mohammad as you are. I think you will also go to hell just as you are claiming for him and me.
I KNOW Muhammad is in Hell!
Leave it to your god or i will leave it on my god. meeting you on day of judment.
And if you remain a Muslim in the jihad of the sword your soul will perish, and on the day of Judgement I will stand with Jesus and tell you "Here is my God" and your body will not be able to resurrect itself, and you will see your bones because the flesh will not form on them, and your toungue will rot in your mouth and you will cover yourself in shame because you were told of the truth but you rejected him, because you feared for your sins so much that violence appealed to your ego, as the only salvation you could accept, but you died in your sins.
I will not pray for you to get the right path and you should not pray for me for the right path.
I do not need your prayers they would not be accepted, I already know through the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit that I am "Another saved in the end", this is granted to some as a special gift which Jesus speaks of in John's Gospel.
I pray we both must see the judment of our conversation on that day by GOD of that day and one must go to hell. Ok
It won't be me thats for sure !
Deal
I wouldn't agree to making of an agreement which pits a mans soul as a wager, even though I know my own judgement, and fear God, Judgement is not a matter of wagers.
at July 30, 2005 1:08 AM
After all that whining, preaching and prostletizing HE_Man cant prove his prophet Mohammad ever really existed...or told the truth about anything if he did...Big bags of wind are cheap...he_man, you are over your head here...you cant keep up. All you can do is insist...Why are you not out fighting in Allahs cause He_man??? You know it's your obligation to Allah...are you afraid??? You will die a hypocrit, if you dont jihad with the rest of them...By the way...when do you expect Mahdi to appear?
Posted by: duh_swami at July 30, 2005 2:19 AM
How low is the moral of conversation here.
______________________________________
duh_swami asked
"Mohammad ever really existed"??
_________________________________________
Stupid question. Who asked it?? Heheheh Laughable.
__________________________________________
duh_swami asked
Why are you not out fighting in Allahs cause He_man???
____________________________________________
Why dont you come infront of me?? Then you will see the answer. heheheh
_________________________________________________
duh_swami asked
You know it's your obligation to Allah...are you afraid???
_________________________________________________
Is it me or you who came so late, when I had said Bye bye. Hehhehehe
_______________________________________________
duh_swami asked
when do you expect Mahdi to appear?
_______________________________________________
Laughable. hahah. When the christians expect Jesus(peace be upon him) will come again. Near that.
Oh man Oh man. heheheheh LOL.
what has happened to you guys. Can't you talk with arguments.
Bye this session is over. Whoever comes late, does it mean that he will be answered any time of his will???
Bye. Peace to only those who are willing to have peace with others.
at July 30, 2005 2:32 AM
Bye HE_Man...too bad you dont know enough about Mahdi to answer the question...guess your not so smart after all...
Rest your brain he_man, it's starting to burn up...I can smell the burnt rubber from here...
at July 30, 2005 2:41 AM
he_man, sorry for the delay, we have family from out of town visiting and are showing them around, helping them enjoy their stay with us. I hope to have more time for you tomorrow. To make this quick, I won't go into lengthy explanations with bible verses to back it up, but I can give them to you later if you wish. You had asked if God or the Devil tempts man,a nd said the bible appears to contradict itself on this. God's word never contradicts itself. The bible says that God tempts no man, but allows the devil to tempt men. Satan must ask God's permission to tempt anyone. This is illustrated in the story of Job in the Old testament. Satan tempts man, but God allows it, to test man and also to do God's works, his plan, on earth. You asked if I believe in one god (or many by implication). There is only one God, creator of the universe, heaven and hell. God manifests Himself to man in different ways. Father, son, holy spirit. It is like a man man be a son, a husband and a father. One man, but seen in different ways by his family. This was illustrated in the Old Testament when God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, a pillar of fire, and a pillar of cloud. One God, shown in three ways. Have to run now, I hope to meet you here again tomorrow.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 31, 2005 4:25 PM
Bohemond_1069,
Hi there, I think we can carry on like that. May be on daily basis or weekly basis. It depends on your time and my time. I am well with any option. Anyway, I am pleased that we are atleast on talking business between each other.
You said:
man be a son, a husband and a father. One man, but seen in different ways by his family.
may I say here something that is bothering me everytime?
1. In all the way, he is only human and "ONE ENTITY". In your analogy to JESUS, it seems to have not exactly fit. Since JESUS was MAN. Yahweh is GOD. HOLY SPIRIT is neither human nor GOD as Yahweh. They cannot be analogous to a man as father, same man as son and same man as husband. Since that man is human and he is complete not a part.
Please answer in sentence starting with "YES" or "NO". That I mean Jesus is not Yahweh.??? or both are same.????
2. You gave another example like : Just as an egg has shell, yolk and white. Still all egg, all one, yet distinct and separate.
So here I may say that egg is egg but if you say shell it does not mean yolk or white or a whole egg. If you say yolk it cannot be taken as shell or egg from anyone. So they are there different entities and then one may say that an egg is composed of three things(entities). The egg is not an egg if he lacks any one of these things(entities).
This analogy with God theory cannot fit. Since Yahweh is GOD, then without JESUS he was GOD. I mean at the time of IBraham, David and others. THere was no entity as human whos name was JESUS at that time.
Secondly Like egg, I can say that theoratically "God" is composed of three entities. That is yahwah, Jesus and Holy spirit. Like egg, GOd cannot be complete due to lack of anyone. That means GOD of Ibraham, David and others were not GOD at all since there was at that time no existence of Jesus as a human. We can also discuss about Holy spirit but it will prolong the discussion.
Please equate these two things and then we will concentrate on others. Dont think that I am criticizing here anyone's religion. But the questions come and I ask. Secondly I am normal man and thinks that you are normal too. So dont take it personal. That is if you cannot argue it you are free to say that may be your religious scholar can answer.
Bye see you then at 5:00 GMT. or you may propose some other time of your choice.
Regards, He_man.
at August 1, 2005 2:33 PM
he_man, No, Jesus is both man and God at once, yet God the father is still on his throne in Heaven. the analogy of man being father, son, husband, or egg, or a shamrock, will not perfectly explain it as God is infinite, we are finite. We are attempting to explaint the infinite God with our limited finite beings. It is hard to do, hard to conceive, hard to explain. It is like I have a toothache. I can explain it to someone, but if they have never experienced it, they will not fully understand it. So we do our best to communicate. Jesus always existed with the Father, just as the Holy spirit has always existed. The bible says Jacob wrestled with God, was touched on the thigh and limoped afterwards. But God the Father has no body. The bible says God is a spirit, and that He has a spirit. So how can this be? God the father did not wrestle with Jacob, but Jacob wrestled with Jesus, who is both God and man, who, like God, always was, always is, always shall be. God cannot die. God lives! Gotta go for now, Be back later.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at August 1, 2005 4:16 PM
Bohemond_1069
You said:
God is infinite, we are finite.
I must admitt that it is really a perfect sentence that anyone might have used to define a GOD. God is Infinite and he is away from anything that can be dead or alive. GOD is away from these kind of states since he is alway ALIVE or we may say that thing does not exist for him. So if we see sun or moon or anything that has a fault or
anykind of weakness in it then we may conclude that this thing cannot be a GOD.
While GOD has the power to do anything, it does not automatically says that he can be anything that we see as a miracle. I must admitt; GOD can do anything that can be called miracle from the sight of humans.
But it does not mean anything or anyone who is sighted as a miracle can be called a GOD.
While we see Jesus and others doing miracles. But we also see somethings that makes some limitations for these personalities. Ok! Jesus was born without father. But we see him in the form of a human. Ok! Moses was born with father but we see lot of miracles on his side too. Does it make Moses also something like GOD? Noway. Ok! Jesus, with the help of GOD could do anything. But we see Jesus, being in the form of Human had some limitations. That is because of his being as a human.
To limit the talk I may post half of this that may seems not to be controversial to both of us.
at August 2, 2005 12:52 AM
Bohemond_1069
In reply to my question that is
"Jesus is not Yahweh???? or both are same.????"
you answered like that:
"No, Jesus is both man and God at once, yet God the father is still on his throne in Heaven."
Please clear this again. These two questions which should be answered in a way that either "the answer" should be true for both questions or any one of these two questions should be called "wrong".
Let me again go in details.
"Jesus is Yahweh????
Anyone may answer "YES" or "NO" to this question.
If answer is "Yes" for this question.
Then we come up with saying of Jesus that shows that "Yes" cannot be an answer. It is wrong. That is:
1. John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God?
if he also had a GOD then how come he can be Yahweh.
2.John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?
So he is totally distinguishing, the two in question. That is, Son(Jesus) and Father(Yahweh).
If answer is "No" for this question.
I may then say only that,
it seems theoretically that Christians believe in more than one GOD entities, Namely SON(JESUS) and Father(Yahweh) and holy spirit.
Your statement that you believe in one GOD seems to be little more confusing if you answer "No".
I am emphasizing in this statement only to distinguish between SON(JESUS) and Father(Yahweh).
The significant of this discussion is higher and that is why I must ask your clear answer for that.
Like I may say for my GOD(ALLAH).
He is alone. Neither like anyone. No one is like Him. We are humans and are only looking for ALLAH's mercy and wisdom. Ourselves & our knowledge are limited but ALLAH's is unlimited and ALLAH was there when there was no one and ALLAH would still be there whenever there will be no one.
So in my opinion, we must be really specific in answering, "who are we praying to?".
As being MUSLIM, I am praying to ALLAH.
I said about myself because it will make easier for you to understand "the reason", why am I interested in asking such questions.
Regards, He_man
at August 2, 2005 1:35 AM
He-Man
You asked
#So in my opinion, we must be really specific in answering, "who are we praying to?".
As being MUSLIM, I am praying to ALLAH#.
As a Christian and in conformity with Jesus words in Johns Gospel, we pray in Jesus through the Holy Spirit, we ask Our Father through Jesus under the influence of the Holy Spirit, if we pray with more than one person we have Jesus pray with us.
Jesus asked God our Father that "As we are (Father and SON) ONE may they also be one with US.
This may also be a justification for asking the help of our loved ones to pray for us in the community of heaven, and why the prayers of saints are efficatious. yet we are guided in our prayer by the revelation and life death and resurrection of Jesus, our inspiration to pray is prompted by the Holy Spirit, and words too complicated for us to express in regard to our environment are expressed by the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that our prayers have to be elaborate (this writing is a prayer) or formal, we can express ourselves in our actions and thoughts at any time day or night, religious people are not the only ones who know how to pray, everyone prays even the burglar knows a prayer or two, even if they are about hope and invisibility.
Religious people realize that God listens to prayer through intermediaries and will in fact deliver you to intermediaries if you invoke him, but Jesus is much more than an intermediary, he is God himself manifested to man, a man cannot appear before God on his own merit or Goodness, because if a man has any goodness it is already God's own gift, so how can a person make a gift of something which he has borrowed? Again how can anyone say "Because of My Goodness and my honour I can appear before Almighty God " he will be shocked to find that he does not have the protection of Jesus and will have to face the wrath of the Holy Spirit because he has presumed to be equal to God, and all he thought he had will be taken from him, more than this, even what he thought he possesed, will be taken from him.
What gives us great confidence and also will be of help to Muslims, (you must weigh this matter in your heart), Jesus gave us his WORD and we have kept it, we know that he died on the Cross, and we know that God raised him after three days, this is the crux of our Faith, because we know that Jesus is risen, so every WORD he has spoken IS the WORD of GOD, and he is a barrier to those who deny God, and who deny him.
Those who deny him deny God and the Holy Spirit is waiting to judge those people and to show them his anger and wrath, because they have called God a liar, his Son a fool, and sought to manufacture a false image of the TRUTH.
at August 2, 2005 7:48 PM
Hi breadwinner,
you said:
"Those who deny him deny God and the Holy Spirit is waiting to judge those people and to show them his anger and wrath, because they have called God a liar, his Son a fool, and sought to manufacture a false image of the TRUTH."
Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.
But this is not the case with me or any Muslim. We believed in Jesus(peace be upon him) as he was shown to us, I mean human. Second, No I never called God a liar. Third we are discussing here some topic so that we may come to common ground.
I may say that, we both as a Christian and Muslim have some things in common.
For you, we may discuss that;
1. We both believe that universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD".
2. GOD is "Merciful and Justice" for those who believe in him and those who do good deeds.
3. Day of judgment will come.
4 There exist punishment for Bad (Evil) and reward with mercy for good (believers).
5. Third the most interesting thing is that we both believe in the GOD of Ibrahim as a true GOD.
6. Jesus(peace be upon him) was born without any father, from a very PURE and respected lady as mother,i.e. Marrium(may my life sacrifice for her and her honor).
7. Jesus(peace be upon him) was the truth, whatever he said and whatever he was.
8. He preached us the teaching about the GOD and day of judgment too.
9. Today Jesus(peace be upon him) is not dead and he will come to save us from ANTI CHRIST(EVIL).
10. We all humans will get a better life when he will come back to us(humans).
11. Jesus(peace be upon him) is truth and will maintain the truth.
12. Jesus(peace be upon him) has no mistake in him and his deeds.
13. Jesus(peace be upon him) is respectable and was not GHOST or ANYOTHER but in the form of HUMAN from a HUMAN mother.
14. If someone will do bad, he will be punished by GOD on the day of Judgment.
15. Good doers on that day will be rewarded with mercy and happiness of GOD.
So breadwinner. If I have said anything wrong, please explicitly mention it.
We don't need to discuss the differences between us since it will create problems.
But I am interested to discuss differences after some of your comments about our similarities. So I may test that you are not only a HATE machine towards other humans.
regards,
He_man
Posted by: he_man
at August 2, 2005 8:47 PM
[you said:
"Those who deny him deny God and the Holy Spirit is waiting to judge those people and to show them his anger and wrath, because they have called God a liar, his Son a fool, and sought to manufacture a false image of the TRUTH."
Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.
Unless you listen to what Jesus says of himself you will die in your sins
But this is not the case with me or any Muslim. We believed in Jesus(peace be upon him) as he was shown to us, I mean human. Second, No I never called God a liar. Third we are discussing here some topic so that we may come to common ground.]
Jesus says very clearly that he is MORE than Human many times he describes himself as God
I may say that, we both as a Christian and Muslim have some things in common.
For you, we may discuss that;
1. We both believe that universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD".
Not the God of Muhammad
2. GOD is "Merciful and Justice" for those who believe in him and those who do good deeds.
Believing in God is not enough, Satan believes in him too, Doing GOOD not enough doing the Commandments or keeping Jesus's WORD.
3. Day of judgment will come.
Day Of Judgement here,this life without Christ is destined for Judgement, their will be a second Judgement at the resurrection No Muslims will be there
4 There exist punishment for Bad (Evil) and reward with mercy for good (believers).
True evil, wickedness will be acknowledged in Judgement, an act of Goodness which is accompanied by Grace, renders the person who has found it free from judgement, that person will enter Gods house and be given another experience of LIFE. A Muslim needs this experience to become a Christian or they will not rise complete at the second Judgement.
5. Third the most interesting thing is that we both believe in the GOD of Ibrahim as a true GOD.
The God of ABRAHAM ISAAC and Jacob not the God of the Kaaba.
6. Jesus(peace be upon him) was born without any father, from a very PURE and respected lady as mother,i.e. Marrium(may my life sacrifice for her and her honor).
Mary, would advise you regarding Jesus "Do whatever he tells you!"John 2:4
7. Jesus(peace be upon him) was the truth, whatever he said and whatever he was.
In the understand of the first Christians who faithfully kept every word he uttered and who were witnesses of his ministry!
8. He preached us the teaching about the GOD and day of judgment too.
He Called God Father, and said "Go into all the world and baptise men in the name of the FATHER SON and HOLY SPIRIT.
9. Today Jesus(peace be upon him) is not dead and he will come to save us from ANTI CHRIST(EVIL).
Jesus is Alive
10. We all humans will get a better life when he will come back to us(humans).
Each of us will find "more Pasture for our Souls" (experience of God)
11. Jesus(peace be upon him) is truth and will maintain the truth.
Jesus before his Birth was the WORD of God, and this same person spoke in Jesus many times "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again!" this same person is as close to Jesus as his breath.
12. Jesus(peace be upon him) has no mistake in him and his deeds.
He is the the most perfect example of Humanity and at the same time fully God.
13. Jesus(peace be upon him) is respectable and was not GHOST or ANYOTHER but in the form of HUMAN from a HUMAN mother.
Jesus is a real man born of Mary, and bears the divine intelligence which was his before the world was made.
14. If someone will do bad, he will be punished by GOD on the day of Judgment.
Ezekiel 18 and 33 God explains his righteousness and his loving character.this is superceded on the obligation to believe in Jesus, yet those who do not know Jesus are protected by it.
15. Good doers on that day will be rewarded with mercy and happiness of GOD.
So breadwinner. If I have said anything wrong, please explicitly mention it.
We don't need to discuss the differences between us since it will create problems.
But I am interested to discuss differences after some of your comments about our similarities. So I may test that you are not only a HATE machine towards other humans.
I will tell the truth
Posted by: breadwinner at August 3, 2005 9:11 PM
breadwinner
I will prefer to answer you in two different texts so that the length can be adjusted and meanings can be understood.
____________________________________________________
I said: But I am interested to discuss differences after some of your comments about our similarities. So I may test that you are not only a HATE machine towards other humans.
You said: I will tell the truth
___________________________________________________
I say 2: I never said to tell anything lie in the above sentense.
If you think that we are different and opposite in everythings then there is no common grounds and that is enough for me and you to not discuss anything.
I will Believe in ALLAH and Mohammad. You believe in Jesus, Father and spirit.
We meet on day of Judgement. Why to waste time in discussion.
I told you in the same in the start of conversation with you. I had the feeling that it was useless at that time to discuss with you and it is still useless to discuss now with you anything.
Anyway, in my next text, I will play the game in the same way you are playing so that you might understand the weakness in the conversation standards.
Posted by: he_man at August 4, 2005 7:56 AM
_____________________________________________________
you said:
"Those who deny him deny God and the Holy Spirit is waiting to judge those people and to show them his anger and wrath, because they have called God a liar, his Son a fool, and sought to manufacture a false image of the TRUTH."
I said:
Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.
You said 2:
Unless you listen to what Jesus says of himself you will die in your sins
_________________________________________________
I say 2: Unless you listen to Mohammad says of Jesus and others you will die as a sinful.
I again say no comments for me and you on this topic since we cannot start it from atleast common ground. What I told you was not wrong. Again read it.
(i.e. Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.)
But you are only interested in a position opposite to me. I dont even like to be opposite to you. Since I feel that you and me should meet on the day of judgment with your GOD and Me with my GOD and then there will be the fair Judgement. OK OK OK. Be prepare with your faith. I will ask the help and mercy from ALLAH and you ask the help and mercy from Jesus.
*************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
But this is not the case with me or any Muslim. We believed in Jesus(peace be upon him) as he was shown to us, I mean human. Second, No I never called God a liar. Third we are discussing here some topic so that we may come to common ground.]
You said:
Jesus says very clearly that he is MORE than Human many times he describes himself as God
_________________________________________________
I say 2: It is not my problem what you think. We could discuss these things after the common platform to start the conversation is established. But I think you are only thinking to say no to every of my sayings.
I told that Jesus was shown to us as human. At this moment, I did not want to discuss about what he was. But sorry, you! everytime say no no no no no. What can I do. I can only do to say no no no to you. So no to discussion on this topic too.
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
I may say that, we both as a Christian and Muslim have some things in common.
For you, we may discuss that;
1. We both believe that universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD".
You said:
Not the God of Muhammad
_________________________________________________
I say 2:
Not the GOD of Christians who has a son.
Here again NO NO NO NO No. SO from my side also to you NO No No No No. No discussion with you on this topic too.
I never said any name in the above sentence about Mohammad. You only want to say NO NO NO. So I will also say NO No No No. YOu should not say this sentence to your son or daughter that "the universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD"." Since you denied it in this conversation. I told you to explicitly said where I am wrong.
THis sentense in not wrong for any of us. But No No No.
*************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
2. GOD is "Merciful and Justice" for those who believe in him and those who do good deeds.
You said:
Believing in God is not enough, Satan believes in him too, Doing GOOD not enough doing the Commandments or keeping Jesus's WORD.
__________________________________________________
I say 2:
For me, it is opposite. Believing and doing according to Mohammad(peace be upon him) and Jesus (Peace be Upon him) teachings.
So nO no no no no. You and me cannot discuss here too. Leave this topic again.
**************************************************
___________________________________________________
I said:
3. Day of judgment will come.
You said:
Day Of Judgement here,this life without Christ is destined for Judgement, their will be a second Judgement at the resurrection No Muslims will be there
__________________________________________________
I say 2: Let that day come. I am challenging you for that day. You are not sure from your inside or what? Just accept the challenge and we will both leave this discussion. I challenge you for that day. You with your GOD(Jesus) and I with my GOD(ALLAH) on that day. Deal?????? No further discussion on this topic please only DEAL?? YES or NO????.
**************************************************
__________________________________________________
I said:
4 There exist punishment for Bad (Evil) and reward with mercy for good (believers).
You said:
True evil,.................of LIFE. A Muslim needs this experience to become a Christian or they will not rise complete at the second Judgement.
___________________________________________________
I say 2: Dont force me to convert to Christianity. I will never be one.
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
5. Third the most interesting thing is that we both believe in the GOD of Ibrahim as a true GOD.
You said:
The God of ABRAHAM ISAAC and Jacob not the God of the Kaaba.
_________________________________________________
I say 2: Not the GOD of cross. How does it look like to you. You worship cross and I worship ALLAH not Kaaba.
You use false claim to deny my true claim here. Dont play cheap. I think playing fair might make your comments more reliable.
*************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
6. Jesus(peace be upon him) was born without any father, from a very PURE and respected lady as mother,i.e. Marrium(may my life sacrifice for her and her honor).
You said:
Mary, would advise you regarding Jesus "Do whatever he tells you!"John 2:4
_________________________________________________
I say 2: The answer is out of context here. Why are going here and there. Say "YES" atleast when I am saying true. THe obvious truth is here denied by you. Why should I waste time in conversation?
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
7. Jesus(peace be upon him) was the truth, whatever he said and whatever he was.
you said:
In the understand of the first Christians who faithfully kept every word he uttered and who were witnesses of his ministry!
_________________________________________________
I say 2: Not necessarily. The Christians were humans and could make mistake. They were not pure as Jesus. But we can talk here. if you want.
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
8. He preached us the teaching about the GOD and day of judgment too.
You said:
He Called God Father, and said "Go into all the world and baptise men in the name of the FATHER SON and HOLY SPIRIT.
__________________________________________________
I say 2: Answer is Out of Context to this topic. Say Yes where I am right. Dont go here and there to change the topic.
__________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
I said:
9. Today Jesus(peace be upon him) is not dead and he will come to save us from ANTI CHRIST(EVIL).
You said:
Jesus is Alive
_________________________________________________
I say 2: COmmmon ground here is achieved.
*************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
10. We all humans will get a better life when he will come back to us(humans).
You said:
Each of us will find "more Pasture for our Souls" (experience of God).
_________________________________________________
I say 2: "Pasture of souls" stuff is controversial. But direct experience of GOD could be right. Anyway, if you meant that then another common ground is achieved.
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
11. Jesus(peace be upon him) is truth and will maintain the truth.
You said:
Jesus before his Birth was the WORD of God, and this same person spoke in Jesus many times "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again!" this same person is as close to Jesus as his breath.
_________________________________________________
I say 2: Dont bring another topic out of anywhere. Say "yes" if it is ok for you. Why are you increasing the discussion. Increasing it to every direction will only bring the confusion to our common ground.
*************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
12. Jesus(peace be upon him) has no mistake in him and his deeds.
You said:
He is the the most perfect example of Humanity and at the same time fully God.
__________________________________________________
I say 2: I never talked about GOD here. Why are you not saying "Yes" if I am saying something right. THat makes me think that you are not interested in acknowledging my saying even if they are right. Did my sentence alone mean anything wrong???? NO.
**************************************************
__________________________________________________
I said:
13. Jesus(peace be upon him) is respectable and was not GHOST or ANYOTHER but in the form of HUMAN from a HUMAN mother.
You said:
Jesus is a real man born of Mary, and bears the divine intelligence which was his before the world was made.
___________________________________________________
I say 2: Change the topic everytime. Why are you afraid to say YES to my true comments. I am not wrong here too.??? You should have said here "YES".
**************************************************
__________________________________________________
I said:
14. If someone will do bad, he will be punished by GOD on the day of Judgment.
YOu said:
Ezekiel 18 and 33 God explains his righteousness and his loving character.this is superceded on the obligation to believe in Jesus, yet those who do not know Jesus are protected by it.
_________________________________________________
I say 2:
So you mean if some christian does anything bad to humans, he will also be protected by Jesus and he will not be punished on the day of Judgment?????
I was not wrong here too. We can discuss further here too.
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
15. Good doers on that day will be rewarded with mercy and happiness of GOD.
YOu said:
**************************************************
_________________________________________________
I said:
So breadwinner. If I have said anything wrong, please explicitly mention it.
We don't need to discuss the differences between us since it will create problems.
But I am interested to discuss differences after some of your comments about our similarities. So I may test that you are not only a HATE machine towards other humans.
You said:
I will tell the truth
_________________________________________________
I say 2: I never asked you to tell a lie.
My comments on this are in the first comment series.
*************************************************
I say 2:
So in the end I may ask you to limit the conversation where we can start from the common platform, first. If you are in constant state of denial then it is better to only accept the challenge and we will see each other on the day of Judgment. I am not afraid of this challenge you should also not be afraid of it. Accpet it otherwise.
at August 4, 2005 9:01 AM
he_man, my apologies for not being here much, we are still playing host to relatives and I don't have a lot of time for the computer now. I will have more time to devote to our discussion here next week, this week I will have to keep my comments short (lucky you). Again, please accept my apologies. I am glad you found some things we can agree on in my previous post. I think anytime we try to describe God in His fullness we will fall short. We can praise God, proclaim His glory and wonders, but as the bible says now we "see tharough a dark glass". I agree with what I think you said about miracles also. Do you know that the bible says we are to to test every spirit, as not all spirits (angels and men) are from God, but some are from Satan? (1 John 4:1, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”) The magicians of Egypt tried to copy some of Moses' miracles but God was more powerful, putting tthem to shame. The bible also says that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive men, and his messengers appear as ministers of righteousness(2 Corinthians 11:14-15). So we have to be careful.
Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at August 4, 2005 4:43 PM
Bohemond_1069,
You dont have to apologies to me. :-). I understand the limitations. Your guests are my guests too; in a sense. Let them and yourself enjoy. Since our discussion is for betterment of human being, it should not become any kind of hinderance for the human kind.
I agreed almost to most of the things you said in the previous comments. ;-) Yes it is in common sense that:
1. not everyone is following GOD. There are some bad guys who can be following SATAN (The enemy of me and you, equally).
2. Satan pretending to be angel. Yes Yes Yes. (John 4:1) stuff Yes Yes Yes.
Praising GOD stuff. Yes Yes Yes.
So we atleast have some common sense that is directing towards same direction. :-) Serve your Guests. Best of luck.
Posted by: he_man at August 4, 2005 7:58 PM
Breadwinner responds
1. I will prefer to answer you in two different texts so that the length can be adjusted and meanings can be understood.
I have made them readable and explicit to the discussion,
2. If you think that we are different and opposite in everything then there is no common grounds and that is enough for me and you to not discuss anything.
First of all let us make our positions clear then point out your differences
3. I will Believe in ALLAH and Mohammad. You believe in Jesus, Father and spirit.
Thank you for admitting that there is a difference (which there is!)
4. We meet on day of Judgement. Why to waste time in discussion.
You don’t understand the Day if Judgement like I do, there are two Judgements for the sinner. A believing Christian can escape the first because of his belief (He passes from Judgement to Life) and the second (the resurrection of Judgement ) due to having washed in the blood of the Lamb and received the bread of Heaven (Jesus’ body and blood), another way of coming into Judgement is to receive the testimony of the Holy Spirit (He shall come to judge the living and the dead).
Therefore the first Judgement is critical and this happens after death unless through Christ or the intervention of Gods grace, here is my experience in this thread, this intervention cannot be guaranteed, a man must do some good from an unconscious act of love. http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/006922.php
5. I told you in the same in the start of conversation with you. I had the feeling that it was useless at that time to discuss with you and it is still useless to discuss now with you anything.
Wrong If you did not know of Christ you would have no sin, but you say you do, therefore your sin is established, you read the Bible against the instruction of the people of the book, saying your tradition is more reliable than people of the book, your salvation is forfeit because you call God a liar, Jesus a fool who did not die on the Cross, and God Our Father did not raise him. And you insult the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth who judges you
6. Anyway, in my next text, I will play the game in the same way you are playing so that you might understand the weakness in the conversation standards.
I don’t play games
7. you said:
"Those who deny him deny God and the Holy Spirit is waiting to judge those people and to show them his anger and wrath, because they have called God a liar, his Son a fool, and sought to manufacture a false image of the TRUTH."
As above.
8. I said:
Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.
You said 2:
Unless you listen to what Jesus says of himself you will die in your sins
10. say 2: Unless you listen to Mohammad says of Jesus and others you will die as a sinful.
Mohammed did not understand the teaching of Jesus and completely mixed the texts up, he is not capable of translating the word of God also he freely admits he is an ignorant and unlettered person
11. I again say no comments for me and you on this topic since we cannot start it from at least common ground. What I told you was not wrong. Again read it.
(i.e. Those who deny Jesus(peace be upon him) are against GOD and against him.)
I hope my response suits you
12. But you are only interested in a position opposite to me. I dont even like to be opposite to you. Since I feel that you and me should meet on the day of judgment with your GOD and Me with my GOD and then there will be the fair Judgement. OK OK OK. Be prepare with your faith. I will ask the help and mercy from ALLAH and you ask the help and mercy from Jesus.
ALLAH is the God of the Kaaba whose daughters al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were so well known in his day, the Jews and Christians explained the God of Abraham but it was an alien God to the pagan Meccan’s, and when they rejected Mohammed’s attempt to convince them that he was their MESSIAH the Jews and their understanding of God was rejected in favour of the God they knew as ALLAH “The God of the Kaaba”, when he thought the memory of the Jewish insult was forgotten he reclaimed the identity of the Abramaic God and jumbled the Torah and the Gospels to make it seem that Ishmael was son Abraham offered as a sacrifice to God, and he also misquoted the place where this happened as contrary to the Torah’s version Mount Moriah to the Kaaba
13. I said:
But this is not the case with me or any Muslim. We believed in Jesus (peace be upon him) as he was shown to us, I mean human. Second, No I never called God a liar. Third we are discussing here some topic so that we may come to common ground.]
Dealt with this above
14. You said:
Jesus says very clearly that he is MORE than Human many times he describes himself as God
I say 2: It is not my problem what you think. We could discuss these things after the common platform to start the conversation is established. But I think you are only thinking to say no to every of my sayings.
There is evidence to prove conclusively my point
15. I told that Jesus was shown to us as human. At this moment, I did not want to discuss about what he was. But sorry, you! everytime say no no no no no. What can I do. I can only do to say no no no to you. So no to discussion on this topic too.
When we discuss an important and emotive subject we have to be ready to hear things which we might not like.
16. I said:
I may say that, we both as a Christian and Muslim have some things in common.
For you, we may discuss that;
1. We both believe that universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD".
You said:
Not the God of Muhammad
I say 2:
Not the GOD of Christians who has a son.
Here again NO NO NO NO No. SO from my side also to you NO No No No No. No discussion with you on this topic too.
Then again you call God a liar, and his son a fool,
17. I never said any name in the above sentence about Mohammad. You only want to say NO NO NO. So I will also say NO No No No. YOu should not say this sentence to your son or daughter that "the universe is made by some supreme power called "GOD"." Since you denied it in this conversation. I told you to explicitly said where I am wrong.
THis sentense in not wrong for any of us. But No No No.
If we were to discuss a subject and not address the important things relevant to it , we would be lying to each other,
18. I said:
2. GOD is "Merciful and Justice" for those who believe in him and those who do good deeds.
You said:
Believing in God is not enough, Satan believes in him too, Doing GOOD not enough doing the Commandments or keeping Jesus’ WORD.
I say 2:
For me, it is opposite. Believing and doing according to Mohammad(peace be upon him) and Jesus (Peace be Upon him) teachings.
So nO no no no no. You and me cannot discuss here too. Leave this topic again.
Jesus says “Love the Lord thy God and your neighbour as yourself” Allah says’ Love the Muslims and persecute all those who are not Muslim. This is the teaching of a very limited mind.
19. I said:
3. Day of judgment will come.
You said:
Day Of Judgement here, this life without Christ is destined for Judgement, their will be a second Judgement at the resurrection No Muslims will be there.
I say 2: Let that day come. I am challenging you for that day. You are not sure from your inside or what? Just accept the challenge and we will both leave this discussion. I challenge you for that day. You with your GOD(Jesus) and I with my GOD(ALLAH) on that day. Deal?????? No further discussion on this topic pleases only DEAL?? YES or NO????.
I don’t make deals with regard to salvation, remember Ishmael who for the sake of a meal renounced his birthright.
Fact: Muslims reject the teachings of Jesus,
Fact: Only he can revive the flesh on your bones in the resurrection
Fact: Muslims have no way of regenerating their bodies in the resurrection, because they have not understood the theology of the Jews and the Christians.
Fact :there is no way for a Muslim to escape the second Judgement (The Resurrection of Judgement , except through Grace unearned, where the Muslim can receive it . At present the Ummah is convicted of a serious social sin whereby they stand by as Jihad is exalted by evil men, they (the Ummah) are guilty by
a. implication
b. silence
c. condoning
d. assent
e. association
20. I said:
There exist punishment for Bad (Evil) and reward with mercy for good (believers).
You said:
“True evil, wickedness will be acknowledged in Judgement, an act of Goodness which is accompanied by Grace, renders the person who has found it free from judgement, that person will enter Gods house and be given another experience of LIFE. A Muslim needs this experience to become a Christian or they will not rise complete at the second Judgement. “
I say 2: Don’t force me to convert to Christianity. I will never be one.
God has time and a forced convert is not wanted
21. I said:
5. Third the most interesting thing is that we both believe in the GOD of Ibrahim as a true GOD.
You said:
The God of ABRAHAM ISAAC and Jacob not the God of the Kaaba.
I say 2: Not the GOD of cross. How does it look like to you. You worship cross and I worship ALLAH not Kaaba.
You use false claim to deny my true claim here. Dont play cheap. I think playing fair might make your comments more reliable.
I think I just spoke what I felt was true, no intention of cheapness was intended
22. I said:
6. Jesus(peace be upon him) was born without any father, from a very PURE and respected lady as mother,i.e. Marrium(may my life sacrifice for her and her honor).
You said:
Mary, would advise you regarding Jesus "Do whatever he tells you!"John 2:4
I say 2: The answer is out of context here. Why are going here and there. Say "YES" atleast when I am saying true. THe obvious truth is here denied by you. Why should I waste time in conversation?
Mary is Mary Marrium Miriam is another Maybe Moses sister
23. I said:
7. Jesus(peace be upon him) was the truth, whatever he said and whatever he was.
You said:
In the understanding of the first Christians who faithfully kept every word he uttered and who were witnesses of his ministry!
I say 2: Not necessarily. The Christians were humans and could make mistake. They were not pure as Jesus. But we can talk here. if you want.
Again you call into doubt the ability of God to make known his message, is God like man that he deceives. This is to insult God Judgement beckons
24. I said:
8. He preached us the teaching about the GOD and day of judgment too.
You said:
He Called God Father, and said "Go into all the world and baptise men in the name of the FATHER SON and HOLY SPIRIT.
I say 2: Answer is Out of Context to this topic. Say Yes where I am right. Dont go here and there to change the topic.
My response is correct why should I not emphasise what is my position, am I to say yes to everything you suggest
25. I said:
9. Today Jesus(peace be upon him) is not dead and he will come to save us from ANTI CHRIST(EVIL).
You said:
Jesus is Alive
I say 2: COmmmon ground here is achieved.
Good what is ANTICHRIST it is not necessarily a person it could be a condition humanity finds itself oppressed by War is ANTICHRISTIAN Murder is ANTICHRISTIAN Hatred is ANTICHRISTIAN Greed is ANTICHRISTIAN
26 I said:
10. We all humans will get a better life when he will come back to us(humans).
You said:
Each of us will find "more Pasture for our Souls" (experience of God).
I say 2: "Pasture of souls" stuff is controversial. But direct experience of GOD could be right. Anyway, if you meant that then another common ground is achieved.
I am afraid you must consider this teaching as it was proposed by Jesus concerning John the Baptist, also Jesus tells us he saw Satan “Fall to earth” this would have to have happened in his pre-birth experience
27. I said:
11. Jesus(peace be upon him) is truth and will maintain the truth.
You said:
Jesus before his Birth was the WORD of God, and this same person spoke in Jesus many times "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again!" this same person is as close to Jesus as his breath.
I say 2: Dont bring another topic out of anywhere. Say "yes" if it is ok for you. Why are you increasing the discussion. Increasing it to every direction will only bring the confusion to our common ground.
We are here to discuss, lets open up !
28. I said:
12. Jesus(peace be upon him) has no mistake in him and his deeds.
You said:
He is the most perfect example of Humanity and at the same time fully God.
I say 2: I never talked about GOD here. Why are you not saying "Yes" if I am saying something right. THat makes me think that you are not interested in acknowledging my saying even if they are right. Did my sentence alone mean anything wrong???? NO.
I am speaking of Jesus that is a common way fore a Christian to speak of him
29. I said:
13. Jesus(peace be upon him) is respectable and was not GHOST or ANY OTHER but in the form of HUMAN from a HUMAN mother.
You said:
Jesus is a real man born of Mary, and bears the divine intelligence which was his before the world was made.
I say 2: Change the topic everytime. Why are you afraid to say YES to my true comments. I am not wrong here too.??? You should have said here "YES".
it’s not enough to say yes to another’s beliefs, that could be misleading , so I qualify my thinking .
30. I said:
14. If someone will do bad, he will be punished by GOD on the Day of Judgment.
You said:
Ezekiel 18 and 33 God explains his righteousness and his loving character. this is superseded on the obligation to believe in Jesus, yet those who do not know Jesus are protected by it.
I say 2:
So you mean if some Christian does anything bad to humans, he will also be protected by Jesus and he will not be punished on the Day of Judgment?????
I was not wrong here too. We can discuss further here too.
No a Christian who does Evil is an ex Christian before God, You did not read the Ezekiel texts, on the day of Judgement many will escape Judgement ‘by the skin of their teeth’ as Jesus say’s those who fail will rise for the Resurrection of Judgement and will remain unregenerate, whilst those who are in Christ will completely regenerate, they will have life and have it to the full, whilst those who are rejected will live in death.
32. I said:
So breadwinner. If I have said anything wrong, please explicitly mention it.
We don't need to discuss the differences between us since it will create problems.
But I am interested to discuss differences after some of your comments about our similarities. So I may test that you are not only a HATE machine towards other humans.
Hope this satisfies your interest He-man
32. You said:
I will tell the truth
I say 2: I never asked you to tell a lie.
And I haven’t
33. My comments on this are in the first comment series.
I say 2:
So in the end I may ask you to limit the conversation where we can start from the common platform, first. If you are in constant state of denial then it is better to only accept the challenge and we will see each other on the day of Judgment. I am not afraid of this challenge you should also not be afraid of it. Accept it otherwise.
I can limit the conversation to how much you are willing to discuss
at August 4, 2005 8:09 PM
Bread winner
First of all, let me say you something. Don’t “BOLD” your words. Let the visibility of both of the discussion partners be same and equal. I very much know about the weights of bolded words in any discussion. So please don’t try to grap an unwanted attention for your words only. I have this as objection.
__________________________________________________
You said:
First of all let us make our positions clear then point out your differences
I say:
Your religion is about 2000 years old. My religion is about 1500 years old. Both positions are clear.
___________________________________________________
For point 3: We are different. I told you that is why you are called Christians and we are Muslims.
There are lot of differences. But there exists some similarities. To start with any conversation, one must start with common ground. For example, some people start with common time period to discuss something. Some people start with common medium of discussion. Like that I wanted to start with common believes. That was it. ONLY.
For point 4: My believe is all those believe in more than one GOD will go to hell for ever. GOD will not have any mercy for them. In this sense you will go to hell for ever. Also in my believe, I will not have the time to see you there since I will be busy in enjoying heaven.
For point 5:
_________________________________________________
You said:
.........you call God a liar, Jesus a fool who did not die on the Cross, and God Our Father did not raise him. And you insult the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth who judges you....
I say:
In whole of conversation, it is not me who said “GOD a liar”. It is you! who has written it more than once in this text. If you see it??? I never wrote this sentence but you wrote it.
_________________________________________________
For 6,7,8 :
For 10:
_________________________________________________
In my Believe, It is you who mixed up things.
Ok some example of mixing up:
In bible we see lot of mixing up.
#1 How many sons your GOD have????
Luke 3:38 (Adam)
Exodus 4:22. (Jacob)
2 Samuel 7:13-14.(Soloman)
John 10:34 (Atleast Not Jesus)
Job 38:7.
#2
Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).
#3
In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).
#4
How many fighting men were found in Judah? (a) Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) Four hundred and seventy thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).
#5
God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine? (a) Seven (2 Samuel 24:13). (b) Three (1 Chronicles 21:12).
Bible is changed during the time period of thousand years. Now you have lot of mistakes in bible. So it is no way totally a word of GOD.????
___________________________________________________
For point 11:
For point 12:
___________________________________________________
you are wrong. Wrong. wrong.
You said:
ALLAH is the God of the Kaaba whose daughters al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat were so well known in his day,
I say: ALLAH is the only one who never have son nor any daughter. By the way, who told you this?? Muslims believe in ALLAH not Christians. Ask any Muslim, they will say ALLAH never has any son or any daughter. ??????????????????
YOu said: Many things but these things does not have any head or tail. ;-)
In reference ot GOD of Ibrahim, See some quotes from Quran. Muslims are following the GOD of all prophets. Which is the same GOD certainly if all prophets are coming from same GOD. Did Ibrahim said anything about JESUS being GOD?????????????
In Surah AL-BAQARA chapter number 2 verse number 135
"And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. "
In Surah AL-E-IMRAN chapter number 3 verse number 95
"Say: Allah has spoken the truth, therefore follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright one; and he was not one of the polytheists. "
In Surah AL-BAQARA chapter number 2 verse number 136
"Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa(Moses) and Isa(Jesus), and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit."
_________________________________________________
For point 13:
For Point 14:
Only in Bible, you can proof it. I told you about contradictions in Bible itself. See my question in point 10. How many sons you GOD have according to Bible??????
For point 15:
___________________________________________________
You said:
When we discuss an important and emotive subject we have to be ready to hear things which we might not like.
I say: It is true for you too. I ask you only to at least acknowledge what is true. It will then be easier for us to go further.
_________________________________________________
For point 16:
_______________________________________________
You said:
Then again you call God a liar, and his son a fool,
I say:
Hey! Look: Firstly; I did n't say this sentence. Secondly; I don't believe in any GOD who have son or daughter. Then how can I say, the son of god, a fool. In my believe, son of god never exists. Digest this fact that I don’t believe in son of GOD, so that we may talk further.
_________________________________________________
For point 17:
We will discuss everything. But at least start with common ground. Please see again point 3.
For point 18:
You said:
Jesus says “Love the Lord thy God and your neighbour as yourself”
I say: It is in ISLAM too. Moses said it too. Mohammad said it too. So what????
You said:“ Allah says’ Love the Muslims and persecute all those who are not Muslim."
I say: ALLAH says in Quran,
9:6 And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.
There many more If you want, I may quote it.
For point 20:
Dont play GOD here. You are not GOD and we have lot of difference in Believes. According to my belief, you will go to hell. That is what I told you many times.
You said:
At present the Ummah is convicted of a serious social sin.
I say:
If you think like that, then you people are also in social sin. Let’s start with the government of the people in USA.
a. You lawfully allow the killing of civilians in Iraq and other countries.
b. You don’t follow the doctrine of Jesus. (i.e.Luke 6:27-36)
And Jesus said.
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
And many more sins are there.
For point 20:
Ok.
For point 21:
you said:
I think I just spoke what I felt was true, no intention of cheapness was intended
I say:
What I said was true at this point. You could have said yes for that. So it is considered cheap that you are constant state of denial. Even to obvious facts. Like we both believers say that GOD of Ibrahim is true GOD. So you think that the GOD of Ibrahim was not the GOD of Kaaba? Then who is the GOD of Kaaba then? Or if there is only One GOD then it means Kaaba is without GOD? Oh man! that is what I wanted to say. There was only One GOD on which Ibrahim believed and we both as Muslim and Christians believe on that GOD.
For point 22:
Ok You say her Mary and we Muslim say her Marrium. You say David to some one we say Daaood. You say Abraham, we say Ibrahim. YOu say Moses, we say Mosa. You say Jesus, we say Isa. You say Jacob, we say Yaqooob. So if only the names are pronounced differently then it is ok. We must not indulge in it.
For point 23:
If you think like that then please comment on the contradictions or mixing of facts on bible those are mentioned in point 10. There are many points that are changed and you should comment on that please.
For point 24
Hey man! not answering my point with yes/no and saying your point will not make any sense in any conversation. You can say your point too to ask me something, I will try to answer that too. It will make our way to conversation.
For point 25.
ANTICHRIST, whatever you say, but today or in the last century we see war,killing, hatred from the people those who say themselves Christians. If USA did the war with vietname that was antichrist and many other wars? Killing you know more than me. Hatred you know since you are at this website.
For point 26.
For point 27.
For point 28.
For point 29.
For point 30.
For point 31.
For point 32.
For point 33.
For the above, I dont need to comment. For all I may say one thing.
If you are a christian then I am a muslim.
If you or me want to talk or have conversation, we will have to start with common groud. Otherwise the discussion will go like it has been for last three four commnets exchanges.
Second, I don't believe in your religion and you don't believe in mine. There are only two ways to go further. First is that we don't talk so that you can carry on giving hateful comments on this website. Second could be! we have conversation and try to find some good true nature of each others religions. I really mean GOOD. If you hear from your side only and I hear from my side only then there will always remain a blindness that I can see on this website against muslims and Islam. May be there exist some muslim websites those are so blind as this website too.
So tell me the choice. Choice will be yours since I am even happier with either fighting or peace. Both are ok for me. But I will prefer peace and will also try for it. But I am not afraid of fighting too.
Posted by: he_man at August 4, 2005 11:59 PM
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