Ba_tards!

I've this sinking feeling that given the tepid responses (non-responses?) to the increasing outrages by the jihadists by the free world, maybe we're destined to lose the war...? Remember, people prefer backing a strong horse. Should this current trend be extrapolated some 20 years, the moslems will've won the world by then.

OT
I also hear Michael Graharm has been fired by ABC for stating the obvious "Islam is a terror organization" under CAIR behest.
Bit by bit, inch by inch, we're ceding all that was fair and nice and noble about our civilizations away to the barbarians.

Posted by: voletti at July 29, 2005 8:51 AM

The killings of Hindu villagers have, in fact, gone in everywhere that Muslims have either been in control, or been able to work their will. These killings, as well as the steady day-to-day persecution, have led in Pakistan (formerly West Pakistan) to a decline in the Hindu population, which was 15% of the total in 1947, and is 1/10th of that today. It is the same in Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan), which once had a non-Muslim population of 35% (almost entirely Hindu, for the remnant of India's Buddhists live only in the Chittagong HIlls; there were some Christians), and that figure has decreaseed to 8%.

Outside Pakistan and Bangladesh, one almost never heard of these killings -- and even within, it was only from the Hindus themselves. In Kashmir, the Indian government, which for years tried to placate in every possible way its own Muslim population, and has shown a remarkable enmity, and lack of understanding, for those HIndus within India who are most aware of the Muslim damage done in the past to Indian civilization, and most aware of the present and future threat to India's HIndus from its inexorably growing Muslim population. These people, all of them tainted with whatever brush as "Hindutva fanatics" comes to hand -- so that the absurd remarks by Thackeray, or any sign of BJP misstatements or malfeasance by any of its leaders, is used -- in the "polite" society of Indians, and especially of those Indians who make it a point of honor, when they are in the West, to deplore the "Hindu fanatics" and "communalism" when, in fact, this so-called "Hindu fanaticism," upon closer inspection, seems not nearly as "fanatical" or as unjustified as one who does not bother to read Elliot and Dowson (an anthology, published in the 1880s I believe, contaiining India's history by Indian historians), Sir Jahundath Sarkar, K. S. Lal, Haish Narain, Sita Ram Goel (who in addition is vilified for his works on Hindu-Christian relations, without even being read), and such foreign students of Indian history as Koenraad Elst and Francois Gautie. How many of those Indian Bright Young Things, spouting the kind of anti-"communalism" talk that they think they are supposed to spout, instead of intelligently investigating the real history of their country, and the real treatment of HIndus (and Sikhs, Jains, and everyone else who was not a Muslim) by the Muslim invaders, have bothered to read even one book on the history of their own country?

Here's one to start with: "Muslim State in India" by K. S. Lal. Recently reprinted, very cheap, well worth getting and devouring.

[Note: The English is at times not quite what an American or English reader might be used to, but it adds rather than detracts, from one's own English. Lal, for example, writes of the "weighment" of the Mughal ruler so that he might be lavished with his same weight in diamonds or in gold. This is not Hobson-Jobson; it is a perfectly good English word, perhaps invented in India, or perhaps an archaic word kept alive in India. But there it is -- and welcome to it, and other words and turns of phrase.]

The more one studies the history of India, the more sympathetic one becomes to those who are lumped, without distinction, into the camp of "Hindutva." And the more one studies, the more one realizes how infuriating it must be to be an Indian-American, either Hindu or Sikh, and to have to pretend, even to oneself, that the Muslim conquest and invasion was not the horror, for Indian civlization, that it was, and to be exposed to, and smilingly have to not take issue with, the fatuitites of those who know nothing about India and its history. And the same must happen in England. But there is no need to continue to be so agreeable about Muslims, and Islam -- indeed, it would be good to set those of non-Indian origin, in both America and England, straight. If for no other reason, that task should be undertaken out of loyalty to the truth, and perhaps to help head off, in one's new country, the same kind of problems that the Muslim population poses, permanently, to all the indigenous non-Muslims of India.

Posted by: Hugh at July 29, 2005 9:10 AM

Propagate This Faith.

This is the Time 07/29/2005.

This is the Faith:

This Religion is Truth and This Church is Freedom
This can be prayed as many, one, or none.
This has no name and can be given any name.
This has created everything.
This creatures are all pure and sacred and all deserve the same rights.
This needs no prophet and raised no prophet: all these are inventions of evil.
This needs no book and inspired no book: all these are inventions of evil
Human union is between one woman and one man.
A human child has the right to have one mother and one father.
evil name is lie, child of jealousy and envy.
The wicked lost their ability to distinguish Good from evil and became evil slaves.
We will burn the wicked in the fire of Truth as only This can fight evil.

This is the Prayer:

I acknowleged the nature of evil.
I will spread the Faith on Earth with all my might.
I will fight the wicked till they come back to the path of Truth or die.
Then peace will come to Earth and This will will be accomplished

Posted by: ila at July 29, 2005 9:12 AM

I'm glad people here care about Indians - Islam's other victims, as Serge Trifkovic said. Also, in Hugh I see the kind of in-depth knowledge of the Indian situation I haven't seen at those other great sites (Pipes, FrontPage, etc.). Not that I blame them: it's a big world. Is Hugh the same as Hugh Fitzgerald, who has written some sharp blogs lately here? I might just add that many of the authors he mentions can be read for free at

http://voi.org/books/

Try The Story of Islamic Imperialism in India, for references to Muslim chroniclers glorifying in their mahem

http://voi.org/books/siii/

It is interesting to see that they have a similar problem with leftists that we do, especially with regards to telling the truth. And I still consider myself 'liberal' in some sense, though I agree with most of what I read on this and similar sites.

However, be warned of one thing. These Hindu nationalists don't like missionaries much, and I know some people here are Christian. They claim that missionaries say offensive things about Hindu 'idolatry' and trick poor uneducated people into converting by, e.g., giving quinine for malaria and saying it was a miracle from Jesus. Although my sympathies tend towards Eastern religions, I realize that Christianity is a mixed bag, much more so than Islam. And there are also problems with Hinduism and Hindu society. Nobody is perfect. (I do think that any Christian who gets upset over 'idolatry' needs to be more open-minded. Hindu philosophy is as subtle and transcendent as Plato, though popular religion is something else of course.)

Posted by: Benjamin at July 29, 2005 10:04 AM

It seems we have a problem with PC in Washington.
Our leaders don't want to call a spade a spade.
That has got to change.

Consider this:
Think five years down the road.
We are out of Iraq. They have been semi-converted
to democracy. But there is still no peace.
Still violence. Now what?! Iraq most likely will
be fighting a political fight. No only among
themselves but with its neighbours.
With our troops gone, the media and the general
public will not be able to hide behind this notion that we are dealing with hoodlums, mercenaries, or outcasts. When the attacks continue it will then be clear that it's not individuals muslums that are the problem but
...dare I say it but Islam itself.
The real problem is still not fixed.
Next, it won't be smalltime al-Zarqawi, it will be
the leaders of Saudi Arabia or whoever.
When paper trail is abundantly clear that we are dealing the very leaders of Islamic countries we
will have address Islam as a viable base to govern and rule.
Having said all of that, my question is this.
Are there any foreign dignitaries or leaders
who are willing to declare war on the Islamic cult? right here and right now. If so then who are they? India perhaps? Once this cascade catches
on there is no stopping it.
Next how can we convince the evangelical power
base that this declaration of "war" is a worthy cause politically?

I look forward to reading your new book Robert.

Posted by: lonely_soul at July 29, 2005 10:27 AM

It seems we have a problem with PC in Washington.
Our leaders don't want to call a spade a spade.
That has got to change.

Consider this:
Think five years down the road.
We are out of Iraq. They have been semi-converted
to democracy. But there is still no peace.
Still violence. Now what?! Iraq most likely will
be fighting a political fight. No only among
themselves but with its neighbours.
With our troops gone, the media and the general
public will not be able to hide behind this notion that we are dealing with hoodlums, mercenaries, or outcasts. When the attacks continue it will then be clear that it's not individuals muslums that are the problem but
...dare I say it but Islam itself.
The real problem is still not fixed.
Next, it won't be smalltime al-Zarqawi, it will be
the leaders of Saudi Arabia or whoever.
When paper trail is abundantly clear that we are dealing the very leaders of Islamic countries we
will have address Islam as a viable base to govern and rule.
Having said all of that, my question is this.
Are there any foreign dignitaries or leaders
who are willing to declare war on the Islamic cult? right here and right now. If so then who are they? India perhaps? Once this cascade catches
on there is no stopping it.
Next how can we convince the evangelical power
base that this declaration of "war" is a worthy cause politically?

I look forward to reading your new book Robert.

Posted by: lonely_soul at July 29, 2005 10:27 AM

Benjamin,

Thanks for that link of Indian writings. I'd like to slightly take issue with one comment of yours:

"[Christian missionaries]... trick poor uneducated people into converting by, e.g., giving quinine for malaria and saying it was a miracle from Jesus."

While Christian missionizing is a significant politico-cultural phenomenon in the context of the West's interaction with the non-Western world, it has diminished in contrast to that other kind of missionizing of the modern West: the spread of pluralist secularism grounded in modern science, capitalism and human rights, with only an indirect connection to Judaeo-Christian doctrines (and certainly with no connection that would contradict the values of secularism).

For at least the past 50 years, therefore, the predominant paradigm of Western "missionizing" is one where both Christian miracle and Hindu theology are considered insufficient, irrational and irrelevant to such benefits as quinine treatments.

PS: This modern Western secularism is as much a threat to Muslim fundamentalists as Christianity is, and they tend to conflate & confuse the two as much as many Leftists do.

Posted by: metaxy at July 29, 2005 11:42 AM

While the world is outraged over the bombings in London, it seems totally mute about the almost daily Islamic terrorist attacks in Kashmir. What this news report shows is nothing new to a community (Hindus) that has been the target of the Islamists for the last 10 years. I suggest having a look at the following web site to get an idea of the kind of butchery these Islamic thugs are capable of:
http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/atrocities/index.html Kashmiri Pandit Holocaust

Posted by: Razdan at July 29, 2005 11:45 AM

no doubt... Indian Govt. will adopt self defeatist attitude and continue CBM's with Pakistan. Pakis must b rofl at the sheer stupidity of Indian govt. its nnegotiating peace whilst its citizens are dying at hands of terrorists by dozens everyday.. just as i type there r reports of yet another suicide bombing in Srinagar...

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at July 29, 2005 11:59 AM

Hi metaxy,

I agree that Western secularism and democracy present much more of a threat to Islam than missionaries (if that's what you meant). My only point was that if people go to that site, they should not be put off by seemingly 'anti-Christian' remarks. Those nationalist Hindus hate to see their religion under a double attack from Muslims and Christians, each trying to raid the herd, so to speak. I personally don't like aggressive proselytization. If any missionary activities are conducted, it should be low-key and non-confrontational ... like a seminar or something. Anyhow, there is valuable literature at that site on the Muslim invasion of India, like the book I mentioned, with many valuable quotes from the Muslim chroniclers themselves (via Elliot and Dowson if I remember).

Benjamin
http://orionnewsblog.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Benjamin at July 29, 2005 1:46 PM

Benjamin,

Thanks again.

"Those nationalist Hindus hate to see their religion under a double attack from Muslims and Christians"

I hope they have the rationality to see the difference between an attack by annoying pigeons (Christian missionaries), and an attack by hordes of rabid wolves (Muslim Jihadists) followed by legions of termites (Muslim Dawists).

Secondly, do nationalist Hindus make the connection between Western Colonialism and modern Western secular values of science, capitalism and human rights? If they do (and they should), they might also resent the "attack" by the modern secular West. Of course, Hindu intellectuals (like some Muslim intellectuals) might attempt to argue that all those modern Western secular values are already implicit in the rich tapestry of Hindu philosophy; however, the question is to what extent their clever absorption of modern Western secular values in the name of recovering them under a different & native form does not mask a profound distaste for the massive historical fact that it took the initiative and ingenuity of the modern West (first under Colonialism, later under a crypto-neo-Colonialism) to effectively (but for complicated reasons imperfectly and in some areas unsuccessfully) modernize not only India but the entire non-Western world.

Posted by: metaxy at July 29, 2005 2:31 PM

Hi metaxy

Your question is huge. I will content myself with the following remarks. In my opinion, Britain drained the wealth of India but did contribute much in the political and cultural domain, e.g. government and railroads. Remember, though, that imperialism could be quite arrogant, and many Hindu nationalists are angry at a certain 19th century British official named Macauley, who considered the Hindu cultural tradition to be trash. They also hate the so-called Aryan Invasion Theory, which is becoming increasingly discredited. On the other hand, many British scholars had a deep appreciation of Hinduism and Indian culture in general. It is a mixed bag. The story is here

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/European_Imperialism.htm

This site has some eccentricities but is overall very enjoyable and informative.

Regarding the fusion of Indian spiritual wisdom and Western intellectual and political traditions, I think they can complement each other nicely, perhaps with a little work. After all, one is spiritual and the other mundane. Anyhow, I'm not trying to convert anyone. It is true that some Indians have such a gripe against the West that they even find 'racism' in the Enlightenment. They are human too. Indians are very diverse in their opinions, like other intelligent people, such as Jews.

Benjamin
http://orionnewsblog.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Benjamin at July 29, 2005 4:22 PM

Wherever there is Islam there is terrorism. Islam IS terrorism. It has always been spread by murder, rape, pillage and conquest. The only thing that I find surprising is that they axed the woman to death. Usually they gang rape the women and sell them into slavery.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at July 29, 2005 4:52 PM

This newspaper article manages to avoid mentioning that it was Islamists who murdered the five people, and so I think we owe the reporters a big "Thank You!". If they had mentioned that it was Islamists, then the Islamists would have had the anti-Islamic and Islamophobic justification they needed to continue their jihad.

Thanks to the reporters' good dhimmitude we will all be alot safer, since I'm sure the Islamists won't have any another excuses to continue their jihad.

Posted by: special_guest at July 29, 2005 5:11 PM

Those of you with the stomach for it and a curiosity can go to the Indian Army website and scroll thru the thumbs of muslims killed during their murder raids into India. This has been going on for a long time.

Posted by: pismopal at July 29, 2005 10:33 PM

I always knew there were a few words missing from the popular subtitle for Islam...

this story clarifies it...

It's really the Religion of (Chop Them To) Piece(s).

Misunderstanding the Koran, once again.

(I actually heard an apologist for Islam unselfconsciously use this phrase "misunderstanding Islam" on the radio yesterday... can't ANYONE understand this godforsaken creed?)

Posted by: BigSleep at July 29, 2005 11:49 PM

Benjamin, thanks for the links you provided to "atributetohinduism" and "orionnewsblog" both of which I hadn't seen before and both of which I had lots of fun perusing through.

Posted by: Razdan at July 30, 2005 12:29 AM

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=75325&headline=Militants~slit~throats~of~5~Hindu~shepherds

J-K militants slit throats of five Hindu shepherds



EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE


Posted online: Saturday, July 30, 2005 at 0000 hours IST

RAJOURI, JULY 29: Raising fears of terror returning to this border district of J-K, militants abducted five Hindu shepherds and slit their throats early this morning.

Although no militant outfit has claimed responsibility so far, police suspect it to be the handiwork of Hizbul Mujahideen. Over one and-a-half months ago, militants had killed six Hindu mine workers in Rajouri’s Kalakote, breaking the two-year calm here.

The murdered shepherds have been identified as Karnail Singh, brother Ashok Singh, cousin Swaran Singh, Dharam Singh and Shamber Singh—all residents of Dhar Sakki village.

According to police sources, a group of four to five militants entered the shepherds’ shelters at Nangi—a high-land pasture ground 10 km north of the village— late last night and forced the male members out at gunpoint.

One of the militants then took one of the shepherds to ‘‘meet a commander’’. After a while, the militant returned alone and took away the other four shepherds, the sources said. The five were later taken to an isolated spot and their throats slit, the sources said.

As rattled family members of the deceased stayed in the shelters, the villagers came to know about the massacre only in the morning. The killing sent shock waves in the area, with most of the shepherds rushing back to the village.

Senior civil and police officers rushed to the spot after news about these killings. The bodies were brought down from the pasture for post-mortem. The last rites will be conducted tomorrow.

Posted by: TheHindu at July 30, 2005 3:35 AM