What a pity... Every inch of land yeilded to Muslims is lost forever... On this day exactly 58 years, my fatherland (India) was vivisected leaving 16 million
Hindus and Sikhs (my grand father being one of them) who'd dwelt there since times immemorial on the wrong side of border...

====================================================
Dharma Rukshuk: Defenders of The Etrenal Faith

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at August 15, 2005 9:50 AM

The suicidal psychopathology known as Israel will only accelerate its own demise.

Very soon to come: Destruction of Biblical proportions in Israel *and* the US. (W)ahabbster's massive effort to give arab, muslim, Jew-killing terrorists Eretz Yisrael will be punished. That nuke we keep hearing about? It IS coming and it will be arab and it will be muslim.

Posted by: Itai at August 15, 2005 10:02 AM

The withdrawal makes no sense to me at all.

Hamas has a lot more fighters than the PA, so it looks to me like all Sharon is doing is turning land over to terrorists.

Pressure from the U.S. is behind this, and it seems ill conceived from the beginning.

Posted by: Arkansas Bushwhacker at August 15, 2005 10:32 AM

And I didn't mean to imply that the PA is any less a threat to Israel than Hamas...

What control is there within the PA? What guarantees of peace? None.

Posted by: Arkansas Bushwhacker at August 15, 2005 10:35 AM

Ah I remember a time not that long ago when I was so very naive and trusting as to believe the Israelis must, simply MUST have this terrorism thing figured out to a degree that would put the rest of us to shame. Just imagine my chagrin at leaning the truth.

It also seems to me that the US and Israeli publics both thought they elected one kind of leader and then, after learning the truth of our mutual situations, are experiencing a severe case of buyer's remorse. Sharon is not the Sharon they elected and Bush is proving not to be the Bush we elected.

So what's left, but to throw the bums out and elect people (Netanyahu springs to mind) who will carry out the people's will. The first American politician promising to seal our borders and limit Muslim immigration will win hands down. No doubt in my mind. The first politician to propose an actual workable strategy for victory will win hands down.

I predict that the governments that prove most responsive to the people will ultimately have the wherewithall to push forward toward victory. Woe to those that deny the people's will and woe to the people living within such foolish borders as well. I just hope we're not among them.

-Rebecca

Posted by: Rebecca JW at August 15, 2005 11:07 AM

Arkansas Bushwacker;

i seriously doubt you can use the word "self-control" and "Palestinians" in the same sentance without being required to include either "don't have" or "nonexistant".
Not more than a couple of days ago there was an article talking about the PA begging their masses not to celebrate, could cause PR problems, don'cha know. Didn't last 24 hours. I guess poster contests just don't have the zing that turning a Jewish bus into pink mist and smoking metal has.
face it, the Palestinian Authority doesn't have much. The only thing positive that might come out of this is the possibility that Gaza descends into gang-warfare while they try to carve out their turf. unfortunately, once the bloodletting is over, they'll remember that they are the agrieved victims and it will be back to business as usual, from their brand-spankin'new digs. wonder how long it'll take them to sight in from the new positions.

Posted by: t-ham at August 15, 2005 11:11 AM

Remember when President Bush went to Israel and remarked that "some driveways in Texas are longer than the whole state of Israel".
What happened to change his mind? I am so disappointed. The same thing happened to President Reagan. Why should tiny Israel have to give one inch? The paleos have shown that they are liars and have no intention of co-existence.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 11:35 AM

I will not post the scripture here (as it seems to be offensive) but dividing the land has ominous Biblical implications, I know Bush knows that...unless he truly doesn't believe it.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 11:43 AM

I wonder whether Sharon is expecting the Palestinian rule of Gaza to devolve into a murderous chaos, which it most likely will, at which point the Israeli Army can say to the world with a straight face, "See? They can't run a government," and send its tanks back in.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic.

Posted by: MontJoie at August 15, 2005 11:43 AM

MontJoie,

It won't matter. The arab-controlled media will never allow us to see it.

However, when the rockets start coming in from Gaza and the suicide bombings start again, Sharon must either respond in a serious way, or this whole strange, sordid alliance of Sharon and the Isreali-leftist bedfellows will indeed be discredited and jetisoned.

Posted by: Infidel33 at August 15, 2005 12:07 PM

From an email I got this morning:
Dear Carolyn,

In the beginning, the move toward disengagement in Gaza and northern Samaria was counted in months...then in weeks...then in days. Now the clock is ticking off the hours when Jewish fathers and mothers, children, grandfathers and grandmothers, brothers and sisters will be forcefully removed from their homes, their places of refuge, and evicted from their lands.

As it was in the days of Esther when the decree went out to destroy the Jews, so it is today in Gaza and northern Samaria: "In each and every province where the command and decree...came, there was great mourning among the Jews, with fasting, weeping and wailing; and many lay on sackcloth and ashes." (Esther 4:3)

Please sign the Stand with Israel petition today! We must let the Jewish people know that Christian America does not support this eviction. Make sure your voice is heard.

Celebrations begin in the PA Territory

Just days ago, Mahmoud Abbas was cautioning the Palestinians to keep celebrations over Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza at a minimum. On Friday, Abbas personally presided over what might be labeled an “excessive demonstration” in Gaza City. He declared: “Today we are celebrating the liberation of Gaza and the northern West Bank; tomorrow we will celebrate the liberation of Jerusalem."

With security guards surrounding him, Abbas said, "From here, from this place, our nation and our masses are walking toward the establishment of an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital."

Muhammed Dahlan, Civil Affairs Minister, stood next to Abbas and proclaimed: “…the day of victory and the beginning of a new era that was achieved with the blood of our martyrs."

Two confirmed terrorist organizations, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, announced that the fight against the “Zionist enemy” would continue. They vowed not to abandon their weapons even after the disengagement, and continue their refusal to join the PA security forces.

On Friday, reporters were invited to view over 1,000 Hamas members wearing fatigues, carrying AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenade launchers blatantly stage a mock attack on an Israeli settlement. In the Jabalya refugee camp, Palestinians attended a "graduation ceremony" for new recruits belonging to Hamas’ armed wing, Izzaddin Kassam.

Carolyn, the Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, later spoke to a crowd at a football stadium. Zahar noted: "This [Hamas] army will continue to defend the Palestinian people. As long as one inch of our land remains under occupation, these weapons will remain in the hands of the Hamas soldiers. These young men will continue to train others until all Palestinians are turned into fighters so that we could liberate Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the sea."

Homes will be stripped of belongings; last good-byes will be said; the banks will shutter their windows; the health clinics will close. And, those soon to be dispossessed fear that the terrorists who have for so long made their lives miserable will, from their new vantage point, be able to wreak even more havoc on the Jewish people.

The process is labeled with the politically correct term "disengagement." For the people who have made their homes in Gush Katif and other villages in Gaza and northern Samaria, it is simply a matter of being dispossessed, evicted, stripped of their inheritance, torn from their homes. It means giving in to the terrorist regime next door that demands, not just their land, but their very lives.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 12:24 PM

This whole process is so absolutly disturbing. I can not understand the meaning of this disengagment. Why surrender to these murderous animals who strip the Israelies or their first basic freedom.."The Right to Life". It is like someone coming into my home and killing one of my children and instead of me seeking revenge, I give this murderer my childs room. I guess in those terms even the most simple amoung us can understand the sheer stupidity of this disengagment...

Posted by: pocadon at August 15, 2005 12:52 PM

IC, the way I took it, quoting scripture here is one reason that comments may be closed.
The scriptures I had in mind (among many) are Joel 3:2 and Zech 12:2-3.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 1:12 PM

As usual Mr. Fitzgerald makes a clear and concise post. I would like Mr. Fitzgerald to fill me in on the history here. I was under the impression that the land that the settlements are on was gained through war when Israel was attacked. Then, according to Resolution 242 adopted on November 22, 1967 Israel was supposed to vacate the areas occupied during the conflict. Here's an excerpt: ...the withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; Termination of all claims of states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Of course, each side interpreted this differently, and it can be argued that neither side has followed this resolution. Still, is not the establishment of settlements on the very land in question a sure violation of the "recognized boundaries" clause? Surely, neither side is without fault - both sides are completely myopic in their view, and neither side is willing to take the moral high ground - but let's at least not pretend that Israel has done no wrong here. However, I am probably missing some of the background information here, and this is where Hugh always hits the spot. Could you explain: 1) How Israel is not in violation of the agreement, 2) why everyone seems so convinced that Sharon is making a mistake, and 3) isn't this the only viable option in order to prove to the world that Palestinian jihadists are after the removal of Israel and not just the occupied areas?

I say this because for the longest time, I've believed that if Israel would take the high ground and dismantle the settlments, then when the terrorist attacks continue (and they will) Israel can finally point out that these attacks go far beyond tiny settlments but encompass an ideology that will not be appeased until Israel ceases to exist - at least with any Jews in it.

Further, protection of these settlments (most of which have no economic value) is taxing Israel's defense forces to defend the lives of a few thousand people. I keep hearing about a "buffer zone," but it does not seem to me that this argument is valid. There are too many Palestinians who live and work in Israel proper for this to hold any water. If a true buffer were ever implemented, who would work as gardeners, dishwashers, maids, and do all the jobs that ordinary Israelis don't want to do? It's a great theory, but it's along the same lines as closing off the Mexican border in the US. Our economy would tank, and the fact is businesses don't want illegal imigration to stop. That's my 2 cents anyway.

Also, this is to Carolyn: No one is "against" you posting scripture, it's just that is doesn't help. When you define this conflict in religious terms, you serve only to add another problem with no solution. Religious differences can never be settled, simply because each person is convinced that what they believe simply has to be true. Further, you imply that the only solution to this conflict is through religious means. The very reason we are in this situation in the first place is because too much religion is already involved - virgins in heaven, martyrdom, etc. etc. I would like to point out that the West is a target specifically because of our secularism - I figure if the jihadists, Pat Robertson, and evangelical Christians hate that, then we must be on to somtething. All I ask is that you apply the same ration and logic that brings you to the conclusion that Islam is a superstition to your own beliefs. And remember, people not "of the book" have more to lose than you in all this: you could pay a tax (though from your posts you have far too much dignity to do so - and I respect that) while I would lose my head...

--Stephen

Posted by: SR at August 15, 2005 1:17 PM

The Meaning of Resolution 242 - One view

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/meaning_of_242.html

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 1:55 PM

A BLACK WEEK INDEED

GAZA LOST TO SHARIA
IRAQ LOST TO SHARIA
ACEH LOST TO SHARIA

Posted by: shiva at August 15, 2005 1:57 PM

How come so many of you conveniently forget Rice going on record and demanding "A contiguous State in Gaza and the West Bank"?
Has nobody paid any attention to the emmanations from Washington these past 4 months and particularly Rice's statements while in the region, especially demanding of Israel the return of Shebaa farms to Lebanon, even though the UN agrees that Israel complied with the UN resolution and withdrew from Lebanese territory (because she does not want any Hezbollah violence over territory that it uses as an excuse for its agressive behaviour)?
Please don't forget that Bush gave Abbas, when he was at the Whitehouse in May, a pass on non-compliance with the road&streetmaps dreamt up by the State Dept.

There is also this to remind folks:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050706-1.html

Memorandum for the Secretary of State
Presidential Determination
No. 2005-27

SUBJECT: Implementation of Sections 603 and 604 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Year 2003 (Public Law 107 228)

Consistent with the authority contained in section 604 of the Foreign Relations Authorization Act, Fiscal Year 2003 (Public Law 107 228) (the "Act"), and with reference to the determinations set out in the report to Congress transmitted on the date hereof, pursuant to section 603 of that Act, regarding noncompliance by the PLO and the Palestinian Authority with certain commitments, I hereby impose the sanction set out in section 604(a)(2), "Downgrade in Status of the PLO Office in the United States." This sanction is imposed for a period of 180 days from the date hereof or until such time as the next report required by section 603 of the Act is transmitted to the Congress, whichever is later. You are authorized and directed to transmit to the appropriate congressional committees the report described in section 603 of the Act.

Furthermore, I hereby determine that it is in the national security interest of the United States to waive that sanction, pursuant to section 604(c) of the Act. This waiver shall be effective for a period of 180 days from the date hereof or until such time as the next report required by section 603 of the Act is transmitted to the Congress, whichever is later.

You are hereby authorized and directed to transmit this determination to the Congress and to publish it in the Federal Register.

GEORGE W. BUSH

Who advises Bush that it is in the "national security" interest of the US to waive this sanction for non-compliance by the PLO and the PA?
No wonder that last week the PA was described as an ally of the US.

Posted by: Cynic at August 15, 2005 1:58 PM

Itai says
"That nuke we keep hearing about? It IS coming and it will be arab and it will be muslim."

Let's say your right Itai. Would you like to share your feelings with us and tell us how you would feel when Mecca, Medina and half of Arabia are nuked in retaliation? What are the steps Israel and the west can take to prevent ANY nukes going off?

Posted by: William The Crusader at August 15, 2005 2:02 PM

Shiva, what happened in Aceh this weekend? There was nothing in the Yankee MSM over the weekend about it.

Posted by: William The Crusader at August 15, 2005 2:05 PM

Resolution 242 calls for a withdrawal not from "the territories" but from "territories" acquired by war. The omission of the definite article was intentional; the Arabs and their Soviet-bloc allies tried very hard to make the text read "all the territories" or "the territories" but failed. Lord Caradon, the British representative, noted both the attempt, and the failure. The French text -- "des territoires" -- allows for more ambiguity. It has been well-discussed by Raymond Aron in his little book on precisely the subject of the Six-Day War and its immediate aftermath.

And the "withdrawal" from territories taken did not specify how much of those territories had to be surrendered or given back, or from where. The Israelis gave back to Egypt the entire Sinai (for the second time), along with three airfields, oilwells they had discovered, the tourist resorts on the Red Sea (entirely a matter of Israel's seeing the potential and developing it), and much else -- roughly, $16 billion in infrastructure (in 1978 dollars).

How shall we regard this second handover of the Sinai (the first was in 1956), to Egypt, which has convinced the world that the Sinai is historically part of Egypt, when in fact most of it did not become recognized as part of Egypt until 1922. For more on this, see the Diaries of Colonel Richard Meinertzhagen, who was high in Allenby's administration in Palestine, and who was indignant at the rewriting of the history of the Sinai by the Egyptians and others too lazy to investigate.

Shall we say that the giving back of 95% of the land area of the territories taken in the Six-Day War are enough? Or should we say that if the Israelis gave back the entire Sinai, they should be forced to give back the entire Gaza, as well as those parts of Judea and Samaria known, quite unnecessarily, and even more misleadingly, as the "West Bank"?

One should not forget that NO territories were to be handed over without the requirement that Israeel have "secure and defensible borders." Well, you tell me -- do you think that Israel, which possesses the highest ratio of boundary to land area of any country in the world, even within the armistice lines of 1967 (i.e., the lines established by the ceasefire of 1949 -- remember the Arabs refused the repeated Israeli offers to make those armistice lines into permanent boundaries, so they never became such), should give up control of Gaza, the invasion route for several thousand years from the south? Should they give up their claim to either Gaza, or to Judea and Samaria, territories which were part of the land that was, under the Mandate for Palestine, part of the small area set aside, in the vast MIddle East, for the establishment of the Jewish National Home (read the Mandate, read the Preamble to the Mandate)?

What would Americans say if Joseph Stalin, or Kin Chong Il, were to insist that if they could only have military outposts running along, say, the Rockies or the Mississippi, they would be happy to cease all hostile acts towards the United States -- care to take that risk.

Israel has a perfect right to those settlements. The Mandate for Palestine, which included all of Gaza, and all of what is now called "the West Bank," was set up precisely "to encourage close Jewish settlement on the land." Anyone is free to read the Mandate -- go right ahead. Indeed, one should read it.

It also has a perfect right by all the rules of post-war settlement.

Finally, even the terms of Resolution 242 itself, which does not, by the way, have to be held out indefinitely to the losers in that war by the victor, call for withdrawals only to the extent that the party giving up territory can be assured of "secure and defensible borders."

No non-Israeli military man in his right mind, were he looking at a map, and looking at the forces arrayed against Israel, ever recommend giving up any more territory. Indeed, giving up the Sinai was both unnecessary, and absurd (and from the American point of view, terrible as well -- for it was the perfect place to give the Americans secure bases in the Middle East, not subject to the shifting definitions of Muslim self-interest).

The most thorough discussion of Resolution 242 and the provision on "Secure and Defensible Borders" is in a book by Yehuda Blum, former Israeli ambassador to the U.N. It contains all the relevant documents. It was published, I believe, by some Israeli university publishing house. It should certainly be consulted by all those who wish to fully understand the history and the wording of Resolution 242, and what it means, practically -- and what, especially, it does not mean, but what all sorts of silly or malevolent commentators, parroting Arab propaganda, keep pretending it means.

There is no substitute for detailed knowledge of these things. Easy allusion, assumptions that it "must mean" this, or it "has to mean that" -- that just won't do. Not when the Arabs are so used to lying, lying, lying, about everything -- blatantly, sure of getting away with it, of never having their bluff called. La faccia tosta. Naglost'. Impudence, meretricious impudence, that needs to be called into question by those who have bothered to learn the facts, and at every point. Relentlessly.

Posted by: Hugh at August 15, 2005 2:10 PM

I will not post the scripture here (as it seems to be offensive) but dividing the land has ominous Biblical implications, I know Bush knows that...unless he truly doesn't believe it.

I don’t understand your concern C2. I thought the way this was supposed to work was if the prophecy is true and hasn’t already occurred, then nothing anyone can do would affect it. Otherwise it would be false and the prophet a false prophet, not to be listened to. The major concerns I have with Biblical prophesy and current events is the people who believe in giving Armageddon a helping hand along.

Hopefully decisions will be made using current data from the real world rather than consulting ancient prophesies.

The tendency to view world events through the lens of religious literature and tradition is why the Middle East is a hotbed of irrational behavior today. Rather than making a genuine effort to promote understanding and compromise, these folks are consumed by ancient rivalries fueled by the
religious zealots who refuse to live in the world as it truly exists today.

We need cool headed analysis and humane implementation of policy that will defuse these old grudges and educate these people on how to live beside each other in peace. Unfortunately, I think the likelihood of that happening is pretty slim if history is any indication of the future.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 15, 2005 2:17 PM

WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE
Ode To Gaza

REVISED

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
no girls to water them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Thrown out of their homes every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Where the young girls have gone every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

Posted by: shiva at August 15, 2005 2:21 PM

f.g.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.
Gaza Watch:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/gazawatch.php

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 2:35 PM

Hugh,
However good your argument is for us it makes not a jot of difference to Rice and the State Department.
If the Supreme Court Judges can sideline the Constitution in favour of European opinion then why should the Administration worry about treaties and agreements?

Posted by: Cynic at August 15, 2005 2:42 PM

C2,

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that.

Same here.

I feel for those forced to give up their homes. It is a terrible thing that is happening. Who knows if it will be a good thing in the long run or not? I fail to see why anyone would care to live in that region.

I think fighting for a certain parcel of dirt on a planet made of the stuff is really foolish. There is enough planet here for all of us. But what you have different groups who all feel they have a god given right, an entitlement from god himself, to that dirt patch and a mandate from god to defend it. The major hang-up isn’t ecological, economical, or empirical, its religious. Extract the religions and their traditional hatred of one another and what do you have? I’m not concerned with who started what hundreds or thousands of years ago, damn lets deal with it from today's standpoint.

Fight, murder, and die for centuries over a very lousy piece of real estate? Insanity seems too tame a word to use for it. Time to face the facts. Dat 'chit ain't work'n man.

We can all pray and read the scriptures until the cows come home but unless someone thinks and reasons out a solution there will never be one, just the same old grudges passed on from generation to generation.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 15, 2005 3:02 PM

The Jakarta Post
Monday, July 25, 2005

Nani Afrida, The Jakarta Post, Banda Aceh

Sharia police said on Sunday they had rounded up at least 36 unmarried women and men for dating in secluded, poorly-lit areas in Bireuen regency, Aceh province, where 15 men convicted of gambling were publicly caned last month.
The couples were accused of violating Article 11 and 14 of the local government regulation on sharia that has been implemented in Aceh since 2003.
"All the violators were arrested on Saturday night because by 10 p.m., they were still going out together in quiet places," a sharia police officer said.
The 36 people, comprising 16 unmarried couples and four other single women suspected of being prostitutes, were caught at a number of locations across the districts of Kota Juang and Peusangan.
However, all the detainees were later released after they made written statements vowing that they would not commit the same violations in the future.
The police said the raid on unmarried couples that were seen together beyond 10 p.m. was aimed
at enforcing sharia in Bireuen.
In the first implementation of corporal punishment in Aceh, the Bireuen regental administration had 15 men convicted of gambling publicly caned on June 24.
The public canings were carried out in front of the Bireuen Grand Mosque and witnessed by some 3,000 rowdy spectators. The move also attracted wide attention from domestic and foreign media. A television station in Jakarta even broadcast it live.
So far, Aceh's Islamic law only regulates punishment for gamblers, those drinking alcoholic drinks, men failing to attend Friday prayers three consecutive times and men or women eating and selling food during the Ramadhan fasting month.
Muslim women who do not wear jilbab or the Muslim head scarf in the devoutly Muslim province are also subject to punishment under the law.
However, regulations stipulating punishment for killers, corrupters and thieves have yet to be implemented.
Ironically, soldiers violating sharia are not affected by the law as the military has its own special law to deal with crimes committed by its members.
A law on corporal punishment was passed in Bireuen last March. Other regencies have not adopted this punishment.
Before the canings took place in Bireuen, Aceh regional governments had already enforced the Muslim dress code, mandatory prayers five times a day and the giving of alms.
The sharia system was implemented in Aceh in 2003, two years after the central government granted special autonomy to the province in order to curb an independence campaign that Free Aceh Movement (GAM) rebels have been fighting for since 1976.

GOVERNMENT: Aceh will be self-governed, except in the fields of "foreign affairs, external defense, national security, monetary and fiscal matters, justice, and freedom of religion." The Indonesian government commits itself to consult and work with the Aceh government when making decisions or entering into international agreements that affect the region. Aceh has the right to regional symbols, including a flag, crest and an anthem.

POLITICS: Indonesia will change existing legislation to allow for Aceh-based political parties within 18 months. Elections in Aceh will be held in April 2006. Outside observers will be invited to monitor the elections in Aceh. The Acehnese population can participate fully in local and national elections.

ECONOMY: Aceh has the right to raise funds with external loans, set its own taxes and adjust interest rates beyond the Central Bank of the Republic of Indonesia. The region is entitled to keep 70 percent of its oil revenue, and holds jurisdiction over natural resources. Tariffs or taxes will not be levied when trading with Indonesia.

AMNESTY: All Free Aceh Movement (GAM) members and political prisoners will receive amnesty within 15 days. Use of weapons by GAM personnel will disqualify the person from amnesty.

HUMAN RIGHTS: A Human Rights Court will be established for Aceh. All persons having been granted amnesty or released from prison or detention will have all political, economic and social rights as well as the right to participate freely in the political process both in Aceh and on the national level. Indonesia and Aceh will give economic support to former combatants, pardoned political prisoners and civilians affected by the conflict. All civilian crimes committed by military personnel in Aceh will be tried in civil courts in Aceh.

SECURITY: All hostilities must end immediately. The number of Indonesian troops in the province will be cut to 14,700, and police to 9,100. The troops are to be used only for external defense purposes under normal peacetime circumstances, and the police force only to uphold "internal law and order in Aceh." GAM will demobilize all of its 3,000 troops, and decommission its arms.

FOOT NOTE
Aceh-based political parties will endeavor to implement full sharia law,as this has been one of the main causes of the conflict.As sharia law is not in the best interest of the status quo in Jakarta

Posted by: shiva at August 15, 2005 3:13 PM

Who advises Bush that it is in the "national security" interest of the US to waive this sanction for non-compliance by the PLO and the PA? No wonder that last week the PA was described as an ally of the US.

What happened to change his mind? I am so disappointed. The same thing happened to President Reagan. Why should tiny Israel have to give one inch?

Carolyn and Cynic:

If you want to know why every successive US administration has bullied, berated, and betrayed Israel to the Arabs, I can recommend The Secret War Against the Jews by John Loftus.

Posted by: Charles Martel at August 15, 2005 3:20 PM

f.g.
"Fight, murder, and die for centuries over a very lousy piece of real estate? "

Anti-semitism, Russian pogroms and then the holocaust were not about parcels of dirt and the lousy piece of real estate became the lifeline of a people long subjected to affliction because of their religion.
When given the chance they clutched at it and so far have hung on.

The fight is remain alive on this ball of dirt while others do their damndest to remove your existence from the face of it.

Posted by: Cynic at August 15, 2005 3:23 PM

William The Crusader

Here is what is happening in Indonesia

For example, although the majority of Indonesians follow the Islamic religion, they are really not yet ready for the implementation of Islamic sharia law. Or, in the language of Soekarno, the Islamic religion in Indonesia is only skin deep, a thin layer on the beliefs of the Islamic people of Indonesia.
In other words, the Islamic people of Indonesian even though they are the majority are not yet ready to implement Islamic laws. They are still at the stage of Islamic dakwah (teaching), not yet of Islamic ijabah (approval). To make an analogy with Islam in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, the Islamic community in Indonesia is still in the Mecca period of Islam, not yet in the Madinah period.
From the time the first revelation came down until the flight to Madinah, for 13 years in Mecca, what the Prophet did was teach, expand the faith of the community, teach them to submit and only worship the one God. The laws of Islam had not yet been laid down. That is the reason, for example, still permitted them to drink alcoholic drinks. He only forbade them to be drunk while they were praying. ( Koran 4:42).
Most of the verses that came down to him in Mecca, used the words, Ya ayyuhannas… (Woe to you all of mankind). Filled with calls to faith, threats and rewards together with stories of the former communities which contained teaching and advice on how to live a decent and polite lifestyle.
Only after the flight to Madinah, the Prophet laid down the laws. Alcohol was forbidden, especially drunkenness. Also regulations were laid down which later became known as the Madinah Charter, which ordered the life of the nation and the state. Under the umbrella of the Madinah Charter, the non-Muslim community - the Jews and the Christians - were given the freedom to practice their own religions.
For the Islamic people they also had to live under sharia law. Their life was ordered by Islamic laws. Therefore the verses that came down in Madinah were more specific,, most of them using the words Ya ayyuhalladzina amanu… (Woe to the believers…) followed by prohibitions and commands with their sanctions.
The question arises, "when will the Islamic community of Indonesia attain to the stage of Islam ijabah, Madinah Islam, which submits to the religious regulations"? As long as sharia has not yet been implemented as regulations which enforce obedience, militant groups will continue to arise to struggle and fight for it.

Better Report to the FPI
These troops in Arab style uniforms are growing like mushrooms. Opposing ghozwul fikri (slander) created by the Jews and Christians, they are fighting to establish Islamic sharia law. Are they a threat to the non Islamic community?----------------------The throb of house music all of a sudden disappeared. Enthusiastic movements on the dance floor changed to a mass of trembling bodies. This was accompanied by an attack by troops in white uniforms. In Arab style uniforms, armed with clubs and sabers, they turned upside down the interior of the cafe. It has been recorded that not only was Jimbani Cafe attacked. News Cafe and Salsa Cafe were also left in a mess.
What kind of troops are these that make the guerilla attacks in the centers of night-life? They are the Front for the Defenders of Islam (FPI), which was formed on 17 August 1998. The troops led by Habib Muhammad Rizieq, became the center of media attention in 2000. This was accompanied by the intent of their attack on the night entertainment which they accused of being thick with immorality and iniquity. With the slogan "Movement against Immorality," this group claiming, to have a strength of 15 to 17 million followers in 17 provinces, diligently makes guerilla attacks in various places throughout the greater Jakarta metropolitan area.
Their intent shows two sides of the coin. On one side- this is seen especially by their detractors - has caused the face of Islam to lose its friendliness and to change and become cruel. Islam is seen to be radical. "We cannot respect a group which demonstrates violence," threatened Armando, a resident of the capital. The Governor of Jakarta, Sutiyoso at the moment is angry at the action of FPI. "From where do they get their authority: If they were just participating, I would agree with them, he said as Gatra quoted.
LONG BUT SCAREY

http://www.persecution.org/whitepapers/indonesia-2002-06-01.html

Hugh Have you checked this link
SCAREY

Posted by: shiva at August 15, 2005 3:26 PM

Cynic,

Point taken. But doesn't the religious/tradition aspect of the conflict only become clearer the further back you look? I think we would agree that the Koran and its devaluation of anything not Islamic is a big stumbling block here.

F.G.

Posted by: f.g. at August 15, 2005 4:15 PM

Informed Christian writes: If Jews are to be evacuated from lands that are to come under muslim Arab control then why don't Israel "evacuate" arab muslims from lands that are under Jewish control too so they can be on the right side as well?

I think Informed Christian is on to a very important point in his post. Reading his post suggests to me the KEY difficulty all non-muslims face in trying to 'fight' a war on humanistic terms with the Islamists. It is the fact that the laws governing the interaction between muslims and non-muslims are so completely out-of-whack when it comes to muslim majority regions as opposed to non-muslim majority regions. While the Islamists are given full freedom to spout their religious nonsense when it comes to espousing their 'causes' (i.e. Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, etc.); non-muslims are always required to provide 'serious arguments' to back-up their territorial claims and are expected to always show tolerance and restraint even under the worst of provocations by muslims. While muslims flagrantly violate all kinds of treaties that they are subject to, non-muslims are expected to follow each and every treaty, no matter how unfair, to the very letter of law. Indeed, as Informed Christian points out, while muslims can DEMAND that all non-muslims be thrown out of their 'holy' lands; non-muslims (in this case the Israeli Jews) are expected to show their full 'secular' credentials when it comes to dealing with muslims within their own territory.

The inability or unwillingness of non-muslims to treat muslims in the same way that muslims treat them has obvious long term implications. Muslims, once they reach a majority in any place, keep demanding more and more chunks of lands exclusively for themselves (a process that is irreversible since they throw out all non-muslims from lands that are Islamized). Meanwhile, the freedoms they enjoy in non-Islamized lands allow muslims to also thrive and multiply within their host non-muslim countries. While they steadily grow in population they keep making increased demands on their host countries. Once they reach a big enough population level, they then start yet another jehad to Islamize their host country.

It should be noted that these rules for non-muslims are all self imposed, i.e. it is educated Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc. who demand that minority muslims be given equal rights within their countries. I don't disagree with this, but it is important that we shouldn't be under any illusion that muslims treat us the same way.

Posted by: Razdan at August 15, 2005 4:40 PM

Of course sole ownership of that dirt isn’t essential to either of them in the real world. Both parties could share their holy grounds if everyone were serious about peace, love, and understanding.
Exactly...it takes both sides. Israel is serious about wanting peace, the paleos are not. They will never be satisfied even if they get all of Israel...it will be something else then.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at August 15, 2005 5:28 PM

"Fight, murder, and die for centuries over a very lousy piece of real estate? "

f.g., I doubt you would be so dismissive about that 'lousy piece of real estate' if you and your family happened to live there.

Posted by: Razdan at August 15, 2005 6:45 PM

Israel is nothing short of a miracle.

Being an "infidel" in the true sense of the word I have nothing but the greatest admiration for the Zionists and what their movement and sacrifices have achieved for the Jewish people, who have shed much blood for this little patch of dirt in the ME.

I can only spit on every "Palestinian" Arab making ridiculous claims denying the Jews their ancestral homeland and openly calling for genocide of Israelis.

I cannot predict the future, but we all know that giving (Gaza) something for nothing will only embolden the Paleys and the terror will continue just like before.

I predict that Israel will defend herself by any means possible and that the Arabs will be totally evicted out of Israel and Jerusalem will be the capital..by 2010!

Jordan, Syria and Egypt and Lebanon must be forced to accept their people (the "Palestinians") back. This is the only way to make an end to this. By giving parts of Israel away to undeserving murderous parasites the problem will only get bigger and unmanageable.

Posted by: Terminator at August 15, 2005 7:44 PM

Maybe Sharon is smarter than we think. Once all Ireali's are out of the terratories. Rocket attacks a nd such may not be viewed as terrorist activities, but as hostile attacks from a nation state. When this happens the gloves come off and he is free to wage total war against a hostile State. This of couse is hard to do while Ireal is seen as an occupying force.

Posted by: Cappy at August 16, 2005 12:44 AM

"maybe Sharon is smarter than we think..."
-- from a posting above

Clutching at straws. The kind that break a camel's back. And invoking straws is fitting, given that Sharon should be singing Ray Bolger's lament as the Man of Straw in "The Wizard of Oz" -- "If I only had a brain." Yes, if only Sharon had had, about Gaza, and more importantly, about Islam, the psychology of Muslims, the effect of such a precedent, and the damage to Israeli morale -- a brain.

Posted by: Hugh at August 16, 2005 12:59 AM

"his [Hugh's] statement that this land had already been assigned to Israel mystified me. How can Israel capture land that was supposed to be theirs already?"
--- from a posting above

To avoid any misunderstanding, let me repeat: Gaza, and the "West Bank" (a toponym invented by the Arabs after the 1948 war -- for 2000 years, on all the maps of European cartographers, the Biblical names of Judea and Samaria appeared; they were not suddenly brought into use by some "Biblical" Jewish "settlers" as the Arabs and their sly propagandists would have us all believe) were part of the territories assigned by the League of Nations to the Mandate for Palestine, which was set up for the sole and express purpose of establishing a "Jewish National Home" which would naturally mature into a Jewish state -- the state now known as Israel.

In the 1948 war, when 600,000 Jews, many of them arriving fresh off boats from D.P. camps in Europe, and pressed into battle after a week's training, or no training at all (compare the performance of those instant soldiers, fighting for something they believed in, with the performance of those Iraqis now being trained by long-suffering American officers and men, and showing on almost every occasion their unfitness for real combat), they rebuffed the attacks of five well-armed Arab armies (three of them armed by the British -- those of Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq). But the Jews lost Gaza to the Egyptians, and what many call the "West Bank" to the Kingdom of Jordan (formerly the Emirate of Trans-Jordan). But losing territory did not extinguish their prior, and higher, legal claim under the Mandate for Palestine. That is why the term "occupation" -- which evokes Nazi soldiers goose-stepping under the Arc de Triomphe in Occupied Paris -- is so slyly and cruelly inaccurate. For Israel is not only only, not even mainly, an "occupier." Its claim to Gaza and to the West Bank is far more than that of mere military occupier. And the Arabs know this, but lie. And the rest of the world does not know this, and those whose duty it is to find out seldom bother -- and the Israelis, of course, are in such matters no help whatsoever. No help, and helpless themselves, naked to their enemies.

Posted by: Hugh at August 16, 2005 1:31 AM

"his [Hugh's] statement that this land had already been assigned to Israel mystified me. How can Israel capture land that was supposed to be theirs already?"
--- from a posting above

To avoid any misunderstanding, let me repeat: Gaza, and the "West Bank" (a toponym invented by the Arabs after the 1948 war -- for 2000 years, on all the maps of European cartographers, the Biblical names of Judea and Samaria appeared; they were not suddenly brought into use by some "Biblical" Jewish "settlers" as the Arabs and their sly propagandists would have us all believe) were part of the territories assigned by the League of Nations to the Mandate for Palestine, which was set up for the sole and express purpose of establishing a "Jewish National Home" which would naturally mature into a Jewish state -- the state now known as Israel.

In the 1948 war, when 600,000 Jews, many of them arriving fresh off boats from D.P. camps in Europe, and pressed into battle after a week's training, or no training at all (compare the performance of those instant soldiers, fighting for something they believed in, with the performance of those Iraqis now being trained by long-suffering American officers and men, and showing on almost every occasion their unfitness for real combat), they rebuffed the attacks of five well-armed Arab armies (three of them armed by the British -- those of Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq). But the Jews lost Gaza to the Egyptians, and what many call the "West Bank" to the Kingdom of Jordan (formerly the Emirate of Trans-Jordan). But losing territory did not extinguish their prior, and higher, legal claim under the Mandate for Palestine. That is why the term "occupation" -- which evokes Nazi soldiers goose-stepping under the Arc de Triomphe in Occupied Paris -- is so slyly and cruelly inaccurate. For Israel is not only only, not even mainly, an "occupier." Its claim to Gaza and to the West Bank is far more than that of mere military occupier. And the Arabs know this, but lie. And the rest of the world does not know this, and those whose duty it is to find out seldom bother -- and the Israelis, of course, are in such matters no help whatsoever. No help, and helpless themselves, naked to their enemies.

Posted by: Hugh at August 16, 2005 1:32 AM

tremendous effort, informed Christian!

Perhaps too philosophical, for this is Jihad Watch and we seek ways to counter Islam, not Atheism or Secularism or whatever:

It's ISLAM, and PC, and moral, historical, social equivalence and relativism that has brought us the predicament we find ourselves in.

'If you don't stand for what you believe, you'll fall for anything..."

Is that Nietsche? I don't know. But I'm afraid that the days of countering religion with religion are over.

Nobody I know wants a theocracy.

Organized religion is dead.

And Islam is ready for the KILL...

Posted by: Terminator at August 16, 2005 8:11 AM

"I think fighting for a certain parcel of dirt on a planet made of the stuff is really foolish. There is enough planet here for all of us. But what you have different groups who all feel they have a god given right, an entitlement from god himself, to that dirt patch and a mandate from god to defend it. The major hang-up isn’t ecological, economical, or empirical, its religious. Extract the religions and their traditional hatred of one another and what do you have? I’m not concerned with who started what hundreds or thousands of years ago, damn lets deal with it from today's standpoint. "

Posted by: f.g. at August 15, 2005 03:02 PM

f.g.:

You overlook the fact that the lands upon which the Jews sought to reestablish were very sparcely populated when the Zionist movement started growing in the mid to late 1800s. Jerusalem, Safed, Hebron and another urban area whose name escapes were always majority Jewish. And not only did Israel provide safe haven for the remnant of Eastern European Jewry after the Holocaust, it also became home to between half and three-quarters of a million Sephardic and Yemenite Jews who were forced to flee the pogroms that erupted in North Africa and Asia Minor. It was very much the surrounding dog-in-the-manger bully-boy Arab countries that made this a fight for what was then a very lousy piece of real estate on the principle that they could tolerate no infidels in their midsts.

As for your dismissal of IC's contention that atheism is a religion in itself, while there is no empirical proof of the existence of God or of gods, there is no empirical proof that they do not exist either. Atheism is distinct from "conventional" religions in that it is neither centred on a diety nor a messianic leader, but it is a belief, a faith that there is no God, and as Sam Harris observed about Noam Chomsky in his book "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason", it is indeed also possible to be a secular fanatic.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at August 16, 2005 9:33 AM

'If you don't stand for what you believe, you'll fall for anything..." Is that Nietsche?

No, that's John Mellencamp. :) The lyric goes "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

Perhaps too philosophical, for this is Jihad Watch and we seek ways to counter Islam, not Atheism or Secularism or whatever:

Is true. I don't buy into the whole Judo/Christian meta-story nor do I think you have to do so to join forces with those who do opposing Jihadism. I screwed up and said "Hopefully decisions will be made using current data from the real world rather than consulting ancient prophesies." My bad.

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 16, 2005 12:22 PM

The Gaza expulsion is not over. It can still be turned around. The Jews are down but not out. Its not over 'til its over. The danger to Israel is very serious. The danger to the US is real. For more factual details, check out: http://www.savegushkatif.org/
For information on what's going on in Gaza now, check out http://www.israelnationalnews.com/

There are times for reflection and times for action. This is a time when history is made. I do not expect to persuade those who are against me and my people, or even those who are on the fence, but for those who are on our side, come to the aid of Israel now. Let your voice be heard.
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Posted by: malach at August 16, 2005 4:04 PM

I am almost certain that this will be an absolute disaster for Israel. Weren't their leaders listening to Abbas' remarks about taking over all of Israel and having Jerusalem as the Palestinian capitol? They are allowing terrorists in in the name of being "reasonable" and "helping the peace process", but will ANYBODY step in to help them when the Palestinians and their mad dog supporters sweep in to take over all of Israel? I shudder to think. We have too many permanently drug-addled, cowardly, self-absorbed, "peace-at-any-price-no-war-to-save-oppressed-foreigners", atheist, hedonistic, sophomoric ex-hippies in places of power. Israel will be allowed to go down because they did exactly as our government insisted. South Vietnam, all over again, just because of the hippies(loonies) taking over the asylum. Sickening.

Posted by: cindobindo at August 16, 2005 6:10 PM

For those who are religious, recite psalms, especially 91 and 20, a lot. Also, if you know Torah, study Torah.

"Eleh varekev va eleh va susim, va-anachenu, beshem Adonai elohenu nazkir hemo koreyu venafalu, va'anachenu kamenu vaniteodod." Tehilla 20:8-10

It's not over.

Posted by: malach at August 16, 2005 9:01 PM

Did someone delete one of the posts I made yesterday or have I posted it into another thread?

f.g.

Posted by: f.g. at August 17, 2005 2:52 PM