"I'm as American as apple pie and I'm sitting there and now I'm made to feel like I'm an outsider, for no reason other than I have a long beard or that I prayed,"

If that is profiling, ZZ Tops is in trouble everywhere they go.

Posted by: Gary at November 3, 2005 7:08 AM

If you are as American as apple pie ... then you must not be Muslim. By the way were you praying for the Giants to win?

Posted by: JanuaryMan at November 3, 2005 7:47 AM

Striding out of the vacuum of global and national current events, 13 men at a football stadium packed with 80,000 people including an ex American President(Previously targetted for death by Muslims) decide to harass 5 praying Muslims because of their beards.

Funny, that's not quite the same version as the FBI. Are we talking about the same incident?

Gary;

"they come a-runnin' just as fast as they can,
FBI's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed imam"

sorry, couldn't stop myself

Posted by: t-ham at November 3, 2005 7:53 AM

Just watch. All stadium security personal will have to take mandatory muslim sensitivity training and all stadiums will be required to have prayer rooms to accommodate practitioners of the "religion of peace".

Bet on it.

Posted by: ranoir at November 3, 2005 8:14 AM

Put these guys on the deportation list.

Playing the equal freedom of religion crap.

Sounds like at best a setup by an agenda driven law student seeking a confrontation and publicity for CAIR.

Get these Muslim fools out of America.

I dont CAIR.

Posted by: dgene at November 3, 2005 8:15 AM

Why doesn't this article say that they were kneeling towards Mecca and praying, like I have read in other articles on this?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-nj--giantsstadium-mus1101nov01,0,1783428.story?coll=ny-region-apnewjersey

"Five fans attending the New York Giants-New Orleans Saints game at the Meadowlands on Sept. 19 were removed from their seats and questioned by security personnel after other fans saw them prostrating themselves on the ground as part of daily Muslim prayers, which must be performed five times each day, Sohail Mohammed, a lawyer for one of the men, said Tuesday."

Moose

Posted by: Moose at November 3, 2005 8:18 AM

Ranoir said, "Just watch. All stadium security personal will have to take mandatory muslim sensitivity training..." Yep, bet on that!

Posted by: WatchfulEye at November 3, 2005 8:19 AM

"I'm as American as apple pie and I'm sitting there and now I'm made to feel like I'm an outsider, for no reason other than I have a long beard or that I prayed," said Sami Shaban, a 27-year-old Seton Hall Law School student who lives in Piscataway.

The problem isn't that this crybaby has a long beard. So does Santa. As does Billy Gibbons and Dusty Hill from ZZ Top.

The problem is, or rather the solution is that Muslims will be suspect until Islam is reformed and their violent methods are eliminated.

If they don't like that, then perhaps they should move back to the Middle East and watch soccer games being played on dirt fields. Hell, if they're lucky, maybe they'll get to see a beheading at halftime.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 3, 2005 8:22 AM

"I'm as American as apple pie..."
-- from a posting above

This self-confident assertion, presented both as self-evident and as immune to criticism, needs to be examined. Many will be reluctant to do so. They will find it churlish even to think that people who live in America, or who are born in America, may be defined as incapable, because of their belief-system, of sharing in any way what makes America America. But if one's belief-system is the most important thing in one's life, and if that belief-system insists not on pluralism but on the dominance of Islam, instructs Believers that the main divisiion in the world is that between the Believer (in Islam) and the Infidel, and that loyalty of Believers is owed only to the umma al-Islamiyya, and certainly not to any Infidel nation-state or to one's fellow citizens should they be Infidels, then any hesitation in discussing this matter should be overcome.

No one wants to be like the hideous Martin Dies or hideous-er Joseph McCarthy, and the idea of defining "American" so as to exclude seems so -- un-American. But fear of evoking the idiots of yore on the House Un-American Acitvities Committee should not permanently paralyze.

Last April at JW, discussing the willingness of some to simply take the belief in Islamic "reform" and in those "Muslim reformers" at face value, without inquiring as to how such "reforms" would be made, what would be changed in Islam, and how those changes could possibly be accepted by the mass of deeply and mentally primitive believers.

Here is an excerpt from what I posted then:

In 1943 the War Board called up the writer E. B. White to ask if he could define "democracy." Prompted by this, he wrote a short piece for The New Yorker that while at this moment may seem too sentimental for some, did not sound that way to readers in 1943.

Here is what E. B. White wrote:

"Surely the Board knows what democracy is. It is the line that forms on the right. It is the don’t in don’t shove. It is the hole in the stuffed shirt through which the sawdust trickles; it is the dent in the high hat. Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half of the time. It is the feeling of privacy in voting booths, the feeling of communion in libraries, the feeling of vitality everywhere. Democracy is a letter to the editor. Democracy is the score at the beginning of the ninth. It is an idea which hasn’t been disproved yet, a song the words of which have not gone bad. It’s the mustard on the hot dog and the cream in the rationed coffee. Democracy is a request from the War Board, in the middle of a morning in the middle of a war, wanting to know what democracy is."

How can the spirit of this E. B. White piece from 1943 (in the middle of the greatest war in history) ever be properly conveyed to those would-be Muslim "reformers" and "democrats" now busy avoiding the issue of Islam, and concentrating on the outward and visible signs of democracy, not the real thing.

Before World War I, at the turn of the century, some horses in Elberfeld, Germany caused quite a stir. They were believed by the credulous public capable of performing arithmetic calculations, and in beating their hooves, they seemed able to calculate even cube roots. In reality, they were merely beating ther hooves to the barely perceptible nods of their unscrupulous trainers von Osten and, later, Krall.

Americans in Iraq are not unscrupulous. In fact, American foreign policy makers are far too naive and idealistic, and one often wishes they would be just a little less absurdly scrupulous. But as one sees those Iraqi politicians dithering in Baghdad, but beating their figurative hooves to show they can perform simple calculations about "democracy" one is put in mind, involuntarily and momentarily, of those Elberfeld horses.

Muslim "reformers" bandy about not only the word "democracy" but, all of a sudden, the word "pluralism" as well (as in "Islam believes in 'pluralism'"). Though of course Islam does not permit real "pluralism," Muslims know it has something to do with the recognition of group rights, and that is a conception that they find both useful for their own purposes (in protecting and promoting Islam in Infidel lands) and not terribly threatening at present (for there is no chance that non-Muslims in Muslim countries will ever enjoy full equality, legal and societal).

But what is almost beyond the comprehension of all but the most advanced in the Muslim world is the emphasis, in the West, on the rights of the individual, on the whole idea that the collective or "umma" is suspect.

If one thing must be asked of so-called Muslim reformers in and out of the MIddle East, it is this: not where do you stand on women (Shirin Ebadi fights for women's rights, and claims absurdly that their denial "has nothing to do with Islam"), not where do you stand on "democracy" (head-counting might be just fine with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), but where do you stnad on the right of an individual, born into Islam, to leave Islam, for whatever he chooses -- another religion, or no religion -- without any consequences whatsoever.

Any Muslim presenting himself as the face of a New, Improved Islam, who does not answer that question in straightforward fashion -- and also in a way that does not show mental reservation (i.e. well it is ok in the West, but not for Muslims in Muslim countries) -- can simply be dismissed as a fraud.

Posted by: Hugh at April 3, 2005 09:40 PM

The comment I made about Muslim "reformers" in the Middle East also apply to Muslims within the United States and other Infidel countries. Those who insist on remaining devout Believers in this particular belief-system., and not merely describing themselves as merely "cultural Muslims" (as a way to acknowledge a certain background, and yet to express one's distancing from the belief-system of Islam" without necessarily going into why one insists on the continued identification, or what it is about Islam that proved, in the end, to be impossible to accept) hae the burden of proof.

Those who have bothered to look into or study Islam, its tenets, and the attitudes to which those tenets naturally give rise, have reason to be alarmed by anyone who claims to be a Muslim, for that implies a host of attitudes towards non-Muslims that cannot be denied (well, yes, they can be denied, and are denied by apologists for Islam every day -- but that is all based on the hope that the listeners will know little about Islam and be fooled, or want to be fooled). If a Muslim who is Muslim enough -- i.e. not a "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim, but one who wears the regulation beard, and prays even at a football stadium -- tells us that he is "as American as apple pie" we should not be afraid to ask if he believes not in "pluralism" as a temporary measure to ensure the safety of Islam until such time as Islam becomes powerful enough to dominate, ask if he believes that non-Muslims should be treated in Muslim-dominated places as inferior, i.e. as dhimmis, ask if he believes in freedom of conscience for Muslims who might wish to abandon Islam, ask if women should be given precisely the same legal rights as men, ask if Muslims who are "as American as apple pie" should owe an allegiance to the American nation-state that is superior to any felt loyalty to fellow members of the umma al-Islamiyya, and ask a whole series of questions which, if answered truthfully (vaste programme!), would quickly show that the tenets of Islam flatly contradcit the rights of the individual that are part of the American system, that make America America, and that someone born in the United States, raised, in the United States, who yet in 1943, the year in which E. B. White wrote that essay, harbored a secret desire for a Nazi victory, and felt his true loyalty to be to the armies of Nazi Germany, threatening liberal democracy everywhere -- well, that person might be called an "American citizen" but no one, in 1943 (or later) would have accepted his own designation of himself as "American as apple pie."

Those interested in finding out about the pro-Nazis within this country who kept proclaiming their all-Americanness on every occasion, even as their beliefs showed that they could not possibly be loyal to what America is all about, should find a copy of John Roy Carlson's "Under Cover." It was once a best-seller, bought and read by many hundreds of thousands, in the middle of the same mornings, in the middle of the same war, as the one in which E. B. White got his phone call from the War Board, and wrote his reply.

Posted by: Hugh at November 3, 2005 8:25 AM

There is a two minute clip that offers more insight into this on the source page(middle colulmn) of the article. What raised my eyebrows is that CAIR is now involved in this controversy.

While CAIR is not encourageing these guys to sue(at moment)and not wanting to go to "war" with the Giants orginization, they are encourageing them to speak out to raise awareness that "Islam is part of this country".

So this all appears to be a propaganda exercise on CAIR's behalf. It does appear these guys were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and got scrutinized. But CAIR wants to make an issue out of this to further their Islamicization of America.

Posted by: William The Crusader at November 3, 2005 8:25 AM

They left because they were PO'ed for being questioned. Cool! How CAIRless of the FBI. These muslim punks were most likely out to get a headline to begin with.

Posted by: KingTesticle at November 3, 2005 8:53 AM

Isn't this what military science calls a probing action?

Posted by: t-ham at November 3, 2005 9:06 AM

Excellent comments Hugh and very thought provoking.

And the guy that said he's American as apple pie is LYING!

Why do I say this? Because there is not one American that I know of or ever heard of who would leave the stadium of an NFL football game to go pray. Hell, for most Americans football is their religion!

So no Sami, you are not part of the Apple pie. You may be part of the American melting pot, but not American Apple pie. You are out on the fringe, an outsider to true American values. And I'd be my last dollar that the day you get your law degree, you will go to work exclusively for the Ummah in furthering your Islamic agenda that is so un-American. You fool no one scraggly face.

Posted by: William The Crusader at November 3, 2005 9:08 AM

A round of applause for the stadium security group for having the balls to do their job fully! Anyone who raises a "freedom of speech" objection will be promptly referred to the Dallas Texas incident where an islamakazie blew himeself up at a college football game.

Lets hear it again, a round of applause for the security gaurds doing their job! Especially for doing their job with respect towards the fans ("fan" as in "fanatic" ;) ?) Clearly the men were treated well, and suffered only imagined damages.

It would be refreshing for a public official to also have the courage to stand up and congratulate the professional job done by these guys who are probably not getting paid on a "professional" scale.

Posted by: MikeMontana at November 3, 2005 9:16 AM

I was at the Bengals/Packers game in Cincinnati this past Sunday. If they would have been hanging around the air vents at Paul Brown Stadium, in an area off the beaten path like they were at the Giants game, the same thing would've happened to them, so they just need to shut their mouths and move on.

Posted by: DCWatson at November 3, 2005 9:31 AM

>>Because there is not one American that
>>I know of or ever heard of who would leave
>>the stadium of an NFL football game
>>to go pray.

I'll wager that some Giants fans have prayed for a bad snap, an interception, or a fumble at one point during a Giants game. If these fans can quietly pray during the game from their seats, why couldn't these guys have done the same???

I hate to sound like William Shatner from the awful "Star Trek V", but does Allah really care if you pray while sitting down once in your life? I might be wrong, but many Christian denomincations allow lay people to perform "emergency" baptisms on those about to die who wish to receive baptism - why can't Allah be equally magnanimous in extraordinary circumstances?

Posted by: Darius LaMonica at November 3, 2005 9:38 AM

I just hope they were able to wash their hands, forearms and nostrils. Allah will not forgive the absense of the obsessive/compulsive rituals before praying.
Pass me another one of them hot dogs, please.

Posted by: KingTesticle at November 3, 2005 10:06 AM

The article doesn't say whether or not they were searched. Wouldn't that make sense, looking for vials, etc. if they were near the air ducts?

Posted by: CGW at November 3, 2005 10:14 AM

FBI's crazy 'bout a sharp dressed imam"

T-ham, I knew there was a good ZZ lyric somewhere to fit the topic and that one is smashing!

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 3, 2005 10:17 AM

Mosques do have a separate area for women. Women are separated from men in the mosque for a good reason. If a woman or a dog walks in front of a man while he is praying, then his prayers are invalidated. So, women are out of the way. I wonder if any women were sittin in front of these men in the stadium when they were praying???? Just wondering.....

Posted by: rumoret at November 3, 2005 10:23 AM

rumoret:

>>If a woman or a dog walks in front
>>of a man while he is praying, then
>>his prayers are invalidated

But ... wouldn't they have to clear out the line between themselves and Mecca? If a person is standing in, say, Morocco, there's a good chance a woman or dog in Egypt could accidentally cross the line between the guy praying and Mecca.

Posted by: Darius LaMonica at November 3, 2005 10:28 AM

Hugh would test the Muslim on his grasp of the American (and Western) virtue of individualism:

where do you stand on the right of an individual, born into Islam, to leave Islam, for whatever he chooses -- another religion, or no religion -- without any consequences whatsoever?

I would add:

where do you stand on the right of a Muslim individual to criticize, question, alter, satirize, and/or ridicule any or all aspects of Islam, without any consequences whatsoever?

(The correct answer for the Muslim being asked this question is: "I may not like it, and I may try to persuade him or her to rethink their ways through peaceful arguments, but I will defend to the death his or her right to do those things without any consequences whatsoever.")

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 3, 2005 10:58 AM

"I'm as American as apple pie and I'm sitting there and now I'm made to feel like I'm an outsider..."
-- Sami Shaban, Moslem football fan

No you're not, Sami. You're as un-American as a... well, as a Moslem. Let's explore some of the un-American concepts you worship.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

Koran 3:19 Lo! religion with Allah (is) Surrender.

America is about freedom and liberty, not surrender or submission or whatever you Moslems want to call it. Sami, you're God demands that men prostate themselves like children; America covets individualists, not ridiculous volunteer slaves.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.
-- Koran 4:168

If anyone contradicts or opposes the Messenger [not Allah] after guidance has been conveyed to him, and follows a path other than the way, We shall burn him in Hell!
-- Koran 4:115

America is also about religious freedom. Sami, you worship a God who calls for the opposite of this fine American ideal.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

Aisha [who was 9] said, ‘I used to wash semen off the Prophet’s [who was 53] clothes. When he went for prayers I used to notice one or more spots on them.’
-- Bukhari:V1B4N1229-33

Sami, Sami, SAMI. As a Mohammedan you worship a Sunnah be-spotted with cum stains noticed (caused?) by tiny little girls. Pedophilia is illegal in America. Your Sunnah reverence for sex with children is thoroughly un-American.

And your Holy Prophet should learn how to keep his thing in his soiled robe.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

Allah’s Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.’
-- Bukhari: V9B89N256

Sami, each time you revere the Sunnah you violate the Civil Rights Act, you filthy racist you.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

And Allah taught Adam all the names as follows: He taught him the name of everything, down to fart and little fart.
-- Tabari I:267

Now that's just plain wierd. What in the holy hell is your God doing talking farts?

Please, I beg you, return to Ahabia or wherever the hell you came from, and take your Sunnah with you.

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732 at November 3, 2005 11:01 AM

Um, what if the apple pie's pastry is made with the shortening of choice of many American apple pie makers: lard?

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 3, 2005 11:58 AM

I always use vegetable margarine in my pie pastry, but that's because so many people these days are vegetarians.
But if there is one thing I like (and don't make myself) it's a nice northern lardie cake!

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 3, 2005 12:18 PM

Why, by the way, did the FBI feel it had to deny that it had "profiled" anyone? Is the American government, is the FBI, incapable of explaining the perfectly rational reasons why profiling of Muslims makes perfect sense, and not profiling them makes no sense, but is wasteful, dangerous, and cruel to all of us? Would anyone deny that the problem of cross-border terrorism in the world is aentirely the problem of Muslim terrorism. The Tamil Tigers stick to Sri Lanka, and not serendipitously either. The Basque separatists conduct their terrorism -- if it is such, because if all the targets are only of the Spanish police and military then this would not fit a reasonable definition of terrorism -- within the borders of Spain. Muslim terrorism, an instrument of Jihad, is used against non-Muslims everywhere, of all kinds, doing anything at all, and also against those deemed to be Infidels because they are any number of things which non-Muslims have words for, such as "corrupt," but in the vocabulary of Muslims, in order to attack such people they must be identified not as "despotic" or "corrupt" but as "Infidels." That's the magic word; that's the word that brings down Groucho's duck when the contestants are Muslim.

Posted by: Hugh at November 3, 2005 12:40 PM

islam Is not a race. It's an ideology. Maybe, the RugPilots were ideologically profiled. I certainly hope so ... but I doubt it.

Ideological profiling makes too much sense. No, I'm sure they were not ideologically profiled. We're talking about the FBI, right? No. It would be too simple, too cheap, too effective. No; they were not ideologically profiled.

It had to be keystone-cops, dumb, fumbling luck.

Posted by: Havoc at November 3, 2005 12:42 PM

Yea, apple pie that will blow up when innocent people are around.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at November 3, 2005 12:55 PM

Even if Islam is not racially or ethnically delimited, and even though "Muslim" is not the expression of a racial or ethnic type, it is disingenuous and irrational to deny that race and ethnicity would play a rational part in any Muslim profiling.

Look at photographs of the last 100 Muslim terrorists, and at photographs of the Muslim rioters in Paris and Denmark, and pick at random 100 photographs of Muslim jihadists anywhere.

99% of them do not look like Robert Redford or Brad Pitt, nor even Cary Grant or James Dean.

Islam is overwhelmingly a Third World culture. To deny this on the basis of a handful of John Walker Lindhs is silly.

Thus, race and ethnicity should be a part of any rational profiling of Muslims, to be integrated along with ideological and behavioral profiling.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 3, 2005 1:18 PM

Look at this picture of Mustafa Setmarian Nasar, a red-haired Syrian. He could pass as a Western man any day. Scroll down,
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/areas/europe.htm

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 3, 2005 1:23 PM

Dr Pepper -

When we cast the net, let it be an ideological net. I want to get them all.

- Havoc

Posted by: Havoc at November 3, 2005 1:43 PM

Teh Muslim gameplan is to make Americans feel guilty for thinking someone could be a terrorist just because he is Arabic looking. They will have tests on planes, trains and public places until Americans are afraid to accuse them of anything or even look at them awry. Then the bombings will start. Then they will react with more of the same when authorities look to Muslims as terrorists "Why is it always us? It's religious profiling! It's racial profiling! We are being discriminated against because we are different!" They will use our sense of multicultural correctness as a weapon against us to weaken us.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at November 3, 2005 2:28 PM

Darius:

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1032:
Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1034:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: A woman, an ass and a dog disrupt the prayer, but something like the back of a saddle guards against that.

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1037:
'Urwa b. Zubair reported: 'A'isha asked: What disrupts the prayer? We said: The woman and the ass. Upon this she remarked: Is the woman an ugly animal? I lay in front of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) like the bier of a corpse and he said prayer.

Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Number 1038:
Masruq reported: It was mentioned before'A'isha that prayer is invalidated (in case of passing) of a dog, an ass and a woman (before the worshipper, when he is not screened). Upon this 'A'isha said: You likened us to the asses and the dogs. By Allah I saw the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) saying prayer while I lay on the bedstead interposing between him and the Qibla. When I felt the need, I did not like to wit to front (of the Holy Prophet) and perturb the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and quietly moved out from under its (i. e. of the bedstead) legs.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 2, Number 0704:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw.

Posted by: rumoret at November 3, 2005 2:34 PM

"Is the American government, is the FBI, incapable of explaining the perfectly rational reasons why profiling of Muslims makes perfect sense, and not profiling them makes no sense, but is wasteful, dangerous, and cruel to all of us?"
-- posted by Hugh

Just wait till Hillary takes over the reins.

PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH PBUH

Does anybody know how many Moslems have legally immigrated into the United States since September 12, 2001?

Posted by: Chaz MarteL 732 at November 3, 2005 3:35 PM

Carolyn,

That red-headed Syrian's physiognomy is the exception to the rule. Our rational profiling should be weighted (in terms of time, attention, resources) more towards features that are more common, less towards features that are less common. If we had unlimited manpower and resources, of course, we wouldn't have to worry about allocation.

Havoc,

"When we cast the net, let it be an ideological net. I want to get them all."

Problem is, ideology is inside a person's skull. In order to detect the ideology we want to target, we have to rely on a variety of external signs -- behavior, clothing, objects in possession (a beheading video; a CD-Rom with Jihadist plans, etc.), and physical appearance.

Where physical appearance can help, we need to utilize it in any rational profiling system.

And where race and ethnicity is a factor in physical appearance, then it has to be integrated into the rational profiling system.

Again, the majority of terrorists so far fit racial and ethnic profiles. It would be irrational -- and deadly -- to ignore this.

Finally, for those who are a little dense about the logic here: Just because we are factoring in racial and ethnic data for our profiles, and just because we are rationally giving them more weight than other factors, does NOT mean we are EXCLUDING ideological data, NOR does it mean we are EXCLUDING red-haired Syrians who look Germanic.

It's a matter of degrees and emphasis where masses of data warrant; it's not an Either/Or thing.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 3, 2005 4:11 PM

Dr Pepper -

You are making this too complex. The ideologues are helping us out by being muslims, frequenting mosques, memorizing the quoran, wearing rags on their heads, etc.

It's just a question of will: round 'em up, ship 'em out. Remember, the US owes islam/muslims absolutely nothing. They should be thankful if the one-way trip back to the Middle East (in every muslim's future) is atop an open barge.

America owes islam/muslims nothing.
No muslims. No mosques.

Posted by: Havoc at November 3, 2005 4:50 PM

rumoret:

Wow, thanks for those citations.

So Mohammed said that "black dogs" are devils? Well, my favorite dog in the world is a black lab who was hit by a car and is the nicest fellow one would ever want to meet, and if he is Satan incarnate, then it doesn't bode well for mankind.

Posted by: Darius LaMonica at November 3, 2005 6:08 PM

Havoc,

I was referring to measures to take before we would "round them up and ship them out".

To round them up and ship them out at this point, given the state of PC dominance in our Western societies, would be impossible.

In the meantime (which could last several years unless sufficiently horrible terrorist attacks happen that finally dislodge our PC dominance), there are other uses for profiling: mainly, surveillance & protection of public places -- airports, train stations, cities, malls, energy plants, reservoirs, mosques, etc.

And even in this respect, our PC dominance will hobble our efforts at every step.

In the case of this kind of surveillance & protection, where we have to deal with large crowds and constant mobility and influxes of people in public places, and where we cannot clamp down like a totalitarian state, what I am calling for is a profiling system that takes racial and ethnic data into account.

But even my proposal -- much less extreme than yours of "rounding them up and shipping them out" -- even my proposal would be currently impossible to implement, at least officially and openly, given our PC dominance.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 3, 2005 10:06 PM

APPLE PIE my ass . . .

Islam and the US of A is like a Turd Pie in a friggin' Punch Bowl

deport this a-hole, and his atty

they are the rusty termites of MY Apple Pie Land

they have no utility in the States

Posted by: Crunchy Jello at November 3, 2005 10:58 PM

ur all a buncha ignorant idiots, sitting around on ur asses with obviously nothing better to do...so b4 u start commenting, do ur research properly, cuz last i checked, ur people arent all that perfect!!!

Posted by: hudhud623 at November 3, 2005 11:17 PM

hudhud623:'ur' people arent that perfect. What people are those? Where do you check to see that?
I always thought 'ur' people were about as close to perfection as you can get. Maybe not...please elaborate...

Hugh:that's the word that brings down Groucho's duck when the contestants are Muslim.

And I thought I was the only one who remembered Groucho's duck.

Posted by: duh_swami at November 4, 2005 2:56 AM

swami:

Hugh probably remembers Methusela.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 4, 2005 8:35 AM

Cheers for the security guards doing a great job.

I love the new ZZ Top lyrics ...

And I was SO excited to read why women (and dogs) were not allowed to go into mosques or in front of men praying or whatever bulls**t allah says.

Becuase I had the opportunity to visit some of my Coptic Egyptian friends this past summer. And I did walk in front of men praying on the streets (I almost tripped over some). I am so excited that my lowly woman-power is all it takes :-) too bad I wasn't riding a donkey or walking a dog and it would have been fun to throw some bacon bits, too ... maybe next year.

By the way, I think we should buy plane tickets (to the States) for all Coptics and ship the muslims back to the middle east. Our Coptic brothers and sisters are suffering at the hands of the religion of peace ...

Posted by: What_the at November 5, 2005 5:33 PM