| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
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Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald discusses the noteworthy phenomenon that Muslims seem to be in conflict with non-Muslims virtually everywhere they come in contact with one another:
Pim Fortuyn, the head of an important political movement in the Netherlands, shot dead. Theo Van Gogh, a well-known columnist and tous-azimuths gadfly, bearer of a famous name, stabbed to death. Two members of Parliament, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders, forced to be accompanied by a half-dozen guards everywhere, changing residences, even sleeping in army barracks. Rita Verdonk, the current Immigration and Integration Minister, forced to wear a bullet-proof vest after a bullet is fired by way of warning into her office window. And that is just a small part of what the most tolerant and relaxed and easy-going country in the world, Holland, is now experiencing -- because, like the rest of Western Europe, it did not investigate Islam before allowing into its Infidel midst hundreds of thousands of Muslims.Everywhere that Muslims live near or next to non-Muslims there are problems. It does not matter if those non-Muslims are Catholics, or Protestants or Greek or Russian or Serbian Orthodox. It does not matter if they are Sephardic Jews or Ashkenazi Jews. It does not matter which caste of Hindus they belong to, or whether they are members of a scheduled caste at all. It does not matter if they are Theravada Buddhists or another kind, or if they are Confucians, or if they are agnostics or atheists or anything else, as long as they are not Muslims. Living in proximity to Muslims anywhere in the world presents an enormous complex of problems for non-Muslims, for their safety, and for their way of life.
This happens in the Western world and in the non-Western world. It happens in the Sudan and in Kashmir, as well as in Paris, Amsterdam, London, Madrid, Rome, and a thousand other places.
That is one way to begin to understand the problem.
Another way is to compare -- within the countries of the Western world that have received so many immigrants under the prevailing policies of unwary tolerance and acceptance, and even self-congratulatory promotion of, "diversity" as a Good Thing -- the behavior and attitudes of Muslims as compared to the behavior and attitudes of non-Muslim immigrants. How do Muslims in France, for example, compare in attitudes and behavior to the attitudes and behavior of black Africans, or black immigrants from the Caribbean? How do they compare to the smaller immigrant groups who also arrived during the past few decades -- Vietnamese, Chinese, Hindus?And now let's move to Great Britain. How do Muslim attitudes and behavior compare with that of people who may outwardly look the same -- Hindus and Sikhs -- but whose mental makeup is entirely different? Are they the same, or different? If different, different in what ways? And here again one can compare as well Chinese, Vietnamese, black Christians from the Caribbean or Africa. How do their attitudes and behavior, and chances for "integration," appear? Are they better or worse than those of the Muslims, from wherever those Muslims come? Could this be that there is something in Islam itself that explains the inability of Muslims to "integrate" into Western societies? Could it be that they cannot "integrate" into Western societies without dropping Islam altogether, and that they have no intention of dropping Islam? Could it be that rather than dropping Islam, in the end they intend to islamize the societies that they live in? Have Muslims anywhere in the world ceased to try to promote Islam or its constant expansion? Where that expansion has stopped, it has been stopped by external forces. The conquest of the Mughal princes by the British gave India, in the end, back to the Hindus and others who had been subjugated by Muslim rule, and allowed them to rediscover their own history. (Could one imagine, by the way, a Muslim equivalent of "Oriental" Jones -- Sir William Jones? Of course not. Why would a Muslim take a sympathetic interest in the history of Hindus, much less of Sanskrit?)
These are the questions that Western Europeans, and North Americans, and the rest of the non-Muslim world, have to ask themselves.
Is there something about Islam that makes its adherents immiscible no matter what the proffered mix? Is there reason to believe that even among those who outwardly offer no aggression, as long as they retain a filial piety toward Islam that results in their calling themselves Muslim, there is always the chance that they themselves, or their progeny somewhere in the future, down the genetic line, will revert to "immoderate" from "moderate" Islam?
Yes. And yes.
There is.
This needs to be understood.
Posted by Robert at November 5, 2005 7:32 AM
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Is the West finally waking up? The spineless, diversity nuts who repeat over and over that we must have more diversity. Islam is incompatible with Western values, period.
The only, repeat only solution is to limit immigration of non-Westerners into Western nations. This is not even meant to be a "mean" thing. It's simply an adult realization that some cultures shouldn't mix in great numbers; that each needs it's own domain.
I live in the Arab/Muslim capital of the USA, Dearborn, Michigan. I've seen this phenomenon first hand over the past twenty-five years. In recent years, the Muslim immigrants are more and more fundamental. They move in, start building mosques and turning your school system into an Arabic speaking, Ramadan worshipping one. Reduce immigration now!
Posted by: Nessus![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 5, 2005 8:12 AM
Muslims presently living in western Europe and North America are immigrants, while muslims living in Indian subcontinent(India, Pakistan ang Bangladesh) are converts from hindus living here since time immemorial. Despite a common heritage, every true Indian muslim has hatered against hindus of India. In Indian cities there are muslim areas where nonmuslims and local police force as well do not enter because of fear of getting killed by the muslims. No nonmuslim buys immovable property in these areas. If a hindu having property in muslim majority area wants to sell,he is forced to sell it to a muslim at a very low price. In larger cities a hindu cannot buy and live in an appartment of a multistorey housing complex dominated by muslims. These are subtle facts of day to day life in India about muslims' relations with nonmuslims. These are never reported by mainstream press. This hostile behavior is because of Islam which prohibits muslims to live with Kafirs. Nobody , muslims as well as nonmuslims, can reform Islam.
Posted by: iqbal at November 5, 2005 8:35 AM
"Is the West finally waking up? "
--- Nessus
No, Nessus, they are not waking up, not in Europe they aren't. The European MSM commentary on the ongoing jihad in France is all about the failure of the French to integrate and to "respect" the Muslim immigrants and to provide them the services and jobs and evertything else they need, the way they need. It's all over the dhimmi newspapers of Europe, in all the languages, endlessly blaming the victim. It's the fault of the French; it's always the fault of the others, never of the Muslims who actually do the bombing and the burning and the beheading. Some dhimmi sociologist in France even said that as the situation now proves that integration of "immigrants" did not work under the French Republican values, it's the Republican values that must be changed! Not the immigration policies bringing in hostile invaders who fail to respect those most basic values of the country in which they choose to settle. No: if the Muslims are not happy with what France is all about, let's change France! That's how the logic goes; and it does not change; it did not change after 7/7; it did not change after 9/11 and 3/11 and all those other dates. It won't change until it's too late; and given the intensity of European masochism and self-destructive drive, it may not change even then.
Posted by: rahel at November 5, 2005 8:37 AM
Whether its 1300 years ago or today, Islam has a globalist ideology. I agree that by definition it cannot co-exist with other societies without direct conflict. There is no moderating or "reform movement" within in the religion, and "moderate elements" either live in fear of retribution for speaking out, or quite simply tacitly approve of the mainstream violent Muslims. CAIR fits the profile for the "buttoned-down moderate" Muslims, yet it is plain to see that it is the political arm, while al-Aqueda is the activity arm of the movement called "Islam". There may be no money connection between the two, yet explicity, the Koran is the connection, and both groups know the importance and condone and rely on the other's work to further the overall cause, world submission to Islam. Muslims are religiously justified by their religion to not only lie and/or deceive the non-Muslim, but moreover to kill.
Arafat was famous for double talking "tolerance" to Western media and then turning around and stirring up the Arab street with his typical violent talk. Barely after the Oslo Accords were penned he gave a speech in Arabic about the "Peace of Sulieman", make peace with your enemies as a deceptive maneuver while they're still stronger than you, but when you can, rise up later and kill them when they don't expect it.
France is now learning its lesson for not taking Muslim anti-semitism in its country for the past 4 years seriously. Unfortunately, fat, lazy, socialist societies such as France and the rest of Western Europe are loathe to realize what they need to do to protect themselves.
What we are seeing in France, Britain, Spain, Denmark, Holland, and elsewhere are the testing of the defenses. The Anti-American groups in this country would welcome another opportunity to destablize us from within. It is the Left in this country who most clearly is currently aligning itself with Islamists, in hopes of harnassing the powerful force of Islam, for its own ends, as the Left sees them as the first such powerful global movement since rabid 60's socialism. The Muslims and the socialists have clearly defined ideologies and goals, that despite being at first glance contradictory, can easily co-exist as bedparners because their common goal is destruction of Western society, and act as a fifth column from within to undermine it by using "tolerance and diversity" as its cover.
But like any cancer, the best opportunity for cure is decisive, willful and powerful treatment on the first attempt. We cannot and must not shirk from the responsibility or blink in fear from defending ourselves, our nation, and our society from clearly defined enemies that outwardly wish to destroy.
The Left knows how to bully, and have been doing so successfully and in an organized fashion for 30-40 years. Yet, they are no match for bold, principled, and unintimidated thinking and action that vanquishes them when tested and retested.
The "Islamic movement" quite simply needs to be crushed forcefully and unremorsefully. We must get dirty and get even. When an intruder enters your house to cause damage to property and life, you do not ask him to sit down for tea and work out a deal.
The ideology that wins is the one that belongs to the last man standing.
Posted by: ZionLion at November 5, 2005 8:50 AM
Is the West finally waking up?
No. The secular religion of Diversity is more about hating whitey than loving non-whitey. The elites still think Europe is "hideously white" and will call for yet more immigration. If civil war breaks out, they will move and pontificate from somewhere else in the world.
Posted by: 1630r at November 5, 2005 9:13 AM
Nessus, Islam is incompatible with every other nonislamic civilizaion including Western. Solution to this problem lies in Understanding of Islam i.e., Koran and Sunnah by kafirs.Kafirs must know what Islam prescribes for them. This will make them to understand the hatred of muslims against Kafirs, only then kafirs will find a solution for this monster(islam). Restricting non-wesrteren people in general, from US and the West be counterproductive. Many of the nonmuslim, nonweststern immigrants had and are contributing positively in the Western world.
Posted by: iqbal at November 5, 2005 9:14 AM
Nessus, Islam is incompatible with every other nonislamic civilizaion including Western. Solution to this problem lies in Understanding of Islam i.e., Koran and Sunnah by kafirs.Kafirs must know what Islam prescribes for them. This will make them to understand the hatred of muslims against Kafirs, only then kafirs will find a solution for this monster(islam). Restricting non-wesrteren people in general, from US and the West be counterproductive. Many of the nonmuslim, nonweststern immigrants had and are contributing positively in the Western world.
Posted by: iqbal at November 5, 2005 9:14 AM
Iqbal writes:
Despite a common heritage, every true Indian muslim has hatered against hindus of India. In Indian cities there are muslim areas where nonmuslims and local police force as well do not enter because of fear of getting killed by the muslims. No nonmuslim buys immovable property in these areas. If a hindu having property in muslim majority area wants to sell,he is forced to sell it to a muslim at a very low price. In larger cities a hindu cannot buy and live in an appartment of a multistorey housing complex dominated by muslims. These are subtle facts of day to day life in India about muslims' relations with nonmuslims.
Well, then it would maybe please you to know that the discrimination works both ways. Most nonmuslims in India KNOW that islam is bad news. nobody invites muslim presence in their neighbourhoods and many subtly discourage it.
Posted by: voletti at November 5, 2005 9:55 AM
Samuel P. Huntington summed it up best when he coined the term, "bloody borders of Islam." More than 13 centuries of evidence has accumulated to support this thesis. How do billions of people willfully ignore it?
Posted by: Hulegu Khan at November 5, 2005 10:46 AM
Zionlion, how strange to here a Zionist condemn Socialism, considering that Israel is much more socialist than Europe, with state subsidies for just about everyone, especially settlers.
The problem in Europe is not the socialists, but the capitalists who saw immense profits in the utilization of cheap labor imported from Africa and Muslim lands.
Labor is the only renewable resource in the world, in which supply exceeds demand, and after two suicidal world wars Europe was depleted of manpower, and thus demand exceeded supply and drove up wages.
These self same capitalists, have used socialist ideology (the welfare state) to subsidize the cheap labor pool that benefits their bottom line, stock prices and of course Executive Bonus's.
The problem is not ideology it is not capitalism v socialism, left v right but a problem of greed, and short term benefits at the expense of long term costs.
Mankind has not yet been able to think more than in terms of today, certainly not in terms of long term unintended adverse consequences, because it is today's pressures that drive policies and politics.
? Could it be that they cannot "integrate" into Western societies without dropping Islam altogether, and that they have no intention of dropping Islam? Could it be that rather than dropping Islam, in the end they intend to islamize the societies that they live in
Islam is a memic version of HIV, only this virus causes cancer and the only way to treat cancer is by radical procedures.. chemotherapy and radiation therapy, and where appropriate the surgeon's knife.
Posted by: Nariz at November 5, 2005 5:02 PM
I don't like being ,or being made to feel intolerant, however Hugh is right.
moslems en masse will never accept the way of living of the West, the rights of ordinary people to live safe lives, to worship as they please, to think as they please and to actually THINK for themselves. This is not the way of islam.
Am just re -reading Robert Morey's "islamic Invasion"
and whilst it is short on in depth information (it's only a little book )it is right in essence.
We have to stand up for our own cultures, be proud of our own countries and save them from being swamped in cesspit of islam.
Spread the word that mohammed was an illiterate (albeit charismatic)blood thirsty, war mongering, intolerent man.He was a PAEDOPHILE and a murderer and a liar who changed the face of islam many times until he got the mix he wanted to suit his own ends.
The god of islam is NOT the GOD of Christianity however much moslems may think he is.
mohammed didn't have visions he was most likely an EPILEPTIC who would be treated today and live a productive life. Instead he lived to perpetrate the biggest evil known to mankind.
at November 5, 2005 6:41 PM
To my fellow Americans and fellow Westerners....it isn't always easy to come to the realization but you must force yourself to do so. Immigration is the preferred "weapon" that the radical Muslims use to infiltrate the West, and create a "5th column". How many Muslims are radicals? Perhaps only 10% but even that is a very large number based on the total number of Muslims in the world (about 1.2 billion). Furthermore, a large percentage of Muslims keep quiet when their more radical "brothers" create havoc in the world, all for the greater glory of Islam.
The only, repeat only effective way to stop the spread of this "Islamic disease" is to cut back on immigration into the US, UK, Canada, Australia, France, Italy, Germany, etc., lest we become more like the tribal primitives the Muslims are.
To those non-Westerners who still wish to come to the West, my reply is ....I'm sorry. Not everyone can, especially those of Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist cultures. We in the West simply do not want you in our communities; most of us are not fascinated by your culture, your food, your language, etc. Our elites may be but the vast majority of our people are not. This is not meant an an insult, again, only as an adult realization of what works and what doesn't and a protection of our culture, history, customs, etc. Just as I don't belong living in Bangcock or Bangalore, you don't belong living in Chicago or Atlanta. We all as human beings need to come to this realization.
at November 5, 2005 10:16 PM
Nessus, we need more such plainspeaking.
Hindus are benign and generally pleasant, but they *are* after all a demographic timebomb. They've gotten the breeding habit from being under Islam for so long and I for sure don't want that indulged in America.
Yeah, European cultures and customs need to be sustained for future generations, and the best way is to restrict ourselves to European immigration. 3rd world cultures will invariably end up creating 3rd world countries (a visit to your local Indian store and the chaos that prevails makes this evident) and do we want that for America? Chaos is good and fun, as long it stays in Bangalore, and we can visit it IF and when we want to for a week.
But I think it's best to tackle one problem at a time. Sustainable immigration (both in numbers and the kind of cultures the immigrants come from) is the only sensible path for the West to take.
at November 6, 2005 4:02 AM
Wasn't Pim Fortuyn killed by an animal rights activist?
Posted by: rp666 at November 6, 2005 11:50 PM
Fortuyn's assassin had Islamist connections, which were downplayed in the media. Surprised?
Posted by: Abe of Lincoln at November 8, 2005 1:52 AM
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