My guess is it probably won't spread in Germany in as wide a scale as France. Why? Because most of the Muslims in Germany are Turks, and having lived in Germany for 5 years, I can tell you the young Turks spend most of their nights chasing white German girls, intimidating unsuspecting German youth, and beating each other up near doner stands.

The fact of the matter is, Islam mixes with different cultures in different ways. North African "culture" tends to be especially medieval and barbaric, thus leading to the mass riots you see today.

I can't understand why people refuse to even acknowledge the fact that certain people are much more difficult, if not impossible, to assimilate than others? All you have to do is compare the Koreans, Chinese, Hindus, and other non-Muslim immigrant groups to that of Arab, North African, and Pakistani Muslims. The differences are as clear as day.

My prediction is that the Muslims in Europe form a growing, PERMENENT underclass of thugs and radicals, who will ring every European city much like Brazilian favelas do Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.

They will be ruled by shadow governments (just like in the Brazilian favelas), where a combination of drug dealers, crime lords, and Islamic imams rule supreme.

Posted by: thesamurai at November 7, 2005 10:51 AM

Nonsensical only because it doesn't fit in with the preconceived agenda's of bigots.
--

Boys and girls: Paris riots

The poverty and crime-ridden estates around the French capital, Paris, have erupted in violence - with cars, schools and business premises being torched, mostly by young men and boys as young as 12.

So how do the young residents of the estates see their future?

The BBC News website's Joseph Winter went to one of the affected estates in Aulnay-sous-Bois and found that while some boys had already given up hope of having a decent life, some girls were determined to overcome their problems.

BOYS

When we speak, no one listens to us - this is the only way we have of making ourselves heard.

Boys in Aulnay-sous-Bois
Boys: We don't think we'll ever get jobs

[Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy said he would "pressure-clean us" - that we were "rabble".

We want Mr Sarkozy to resign, or the violence will continue. He is too scared to come here and talk to us himself. We don't think we'll ever get jobs.

We'd like to be accountants or work in businesses, but we know that as soon as people hear we have Muslim names and that we live on the Mitry estate in Aulnay, we won't even get interviews.

GIRLS

They shouldn't burn cars - that won't solve our problems.

Girls in Aulnay-sous-Bois
Girls: Despite everything, we will achieve something

But nor will sending a letter to the interior minister.

We should organise peaceful marches and demonstrations to get our message across.

We're black so we know we won't be able to achieve what we want in our lives. We will face lots of obstacles, but we won't let ourselves be crushed by society.

We want to go to university, but we know our qualifications won't be worth as much as those who live in central Paris.

Charlene Pierre, 15, [right on photo]: I want to be a lawyer.

Barro Victoire, 15 [left]: I want to be an IT engineer.

We know that despite everything, we will be achieve something.

We are confident that in 10 years' time, we will have found good jobs.

Posted by: Shukri at November 7, 2005 10:55 AM

French Muslims face job discrimination

Sadek recently quit his job delivering groceries near Saint-Denis, just north of Paris. He was tired of climbing stairs with heavy bags.

Sadek, 31, has a secondary school education and aspires to something better. But he knows his options are limited: "With a name like mine, I can't have a sales job."

Telemarketing could be a possibility - his Arab roots safely hidden from view. Of course, he would have to work under an assumed name.

Sadek's story sums up the job prospects of the children and grandchildren of Muslim immigrants...

Posted by: Shukri at November 7, 2005 10:57 AM

Shukri,

Nobody here believes anything written by Al-Beeb. You might as well have posted something from Al-Jazeera.

Posted by: Suzan at November 7, 2005 11:16 AM

If you want to account for the high unemployment rates in the Muslim community in France let's try getting honest and stopping the B.S. called discrimination...

FACTS speak louder than opinion: (Feel free to check the numbers at www.insee.fr)

Before putting up the numbers, lets set the context:

Fact: ANY person living in France, legal or not, has access to free healthcare, education (through a PhD if his/her performance allows them to make the cut), vacation (including paid vacations for low-income children), assistance purchasing school supplies (a check is mailed out before school starts per child with higher payout as children advance in their studies) and 5 weeks paid vacation for all of those who do get jobs... yes even as a fry cook at McDonalds!

Yet, despite all of these clear advantages (which french citizens manage to use to their advantage as well)... here is what happens instead:

Muslim immigrants (who now account for almost 40% of all immigrants to France) manage instead to perform at 1/2 the rate of either french nationals or immigrants who are not Algerian, Moroccan, Tunisian or Turkish. With the exception of the highest educational category (Advanced college degree and one other), they consistently have attained 1/2 the level of French or other immigrants. They cannot speak of disadvantages though since education in France is nationalised with every 3rd grader learning the same subject at the same time out of the same book; whether in a small rural village or in a large city classroom.

If discrimination IN the classroom was the real issue, there would be no accounting for the fact that EQUAL percentages of Muslim immigrants have advanced college degrees as do French nationals.

Highest unemployment categories are found in "ouvriers" or "manual laborers" in France as well as in many Western societies. So, it seems natural that if you decide not to get a damned education, you are going to end up jobless!

Fix the fact that many of these kids would rather hang out making money selling dope or otherwise breaking the law (allowing them to afford those nice cars you see in the parking lots of these neighborhoods) instead of working hard in school and getting an education, and you'll fix the real problem.

Take African immigrants to the US. We manage to attain a higher education level than even white Americans. We in fact, are the most highly educated group in the US (despite the common view that its Asians). We do this despite education not being entirely free in the US. We do it because our mothers and fathers would stand for no less! We are reminded daily of "the people back home" who are on their knees praying for the opportunity we have at our disposal.

QUIT sitting at home watching your satellite tv featuring rock throwing in Palestine and go to school. QUIT selling your dope and get a job working your way up from the bottom. QUIT destroying your FREE housing with graffiti and start respecting yourselves and your neighbors. QUIT talking about the fact that "the man" is keeping you down and deal with the gang rapes of girls in your neighborhoods.

Posted by: La Chrétienne at November 7, 2005 11:33 AM

Sadek's story sums up the job prospects of the children and grandchildren of Muslim immigrants

Yes he aspires to better so he quits his job. A young chap, doesn't like manual work. Aspire by all means but don't pack up an honest job until you have a better one to go to. My parents aspired for better for me and it took hard work and sacrifice to achieve it. It also took study beyond statutary school leaving age which was 15 in the UK at that time.

Look at the next link. The boys with Moslem names (which they don't give, why not?) want cushy jobs but can't be bothered.
Compare the girls, black with Christian names (Victoire, Charlene, Pierre), their ambitions are worthwhile, specific and they are aware what they will have to do to achieve them (university and effort)Young women with nice bright intelligent faces.

I think those quotes sum the situation up very nicely thank you Shukri.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at November 7, 2005 11:40 AM

Is there any spot on this entire Earth where Islam is actually proving to the rest of the world that it is leading by good example? No? I didn't think so. Gee, people are scrambling to LEAVE Islamic countries not go there.

Posted by: Report at November 7, 2005 11:40 AM

Shirk:

Easy solution: When you have a child born in France, why not call him/or her Francois or Pierre?

Any reason why he has to be "Mohammed", "Osama" or "Abdullah"-
Slave of Allah?

Try it.

Wouldn't that solve your problem?

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 7, 2005 11:44 AM

As I have written before, I want to see the Israelis urge the Danes, the French, the Germans, the Swedes,etc. to act with restraint in response to their present problems.

chsw

Posted by: chsw at November 7, 2005 12:11 PM

Granny,

Bravo! You brilliantly pointed out the contradiction in the aspirations and the lifestyles of the rioters. My father came to the U.S. from Poland in 1929 when he was only 16. He never received an education. He had to work at whatever jobs he could find to support the family because of the Depression. Because of his lack of education, he had to work as a laborer most of his life. He worked hard and never complained. He raised two children who went on to college and received advanced degrees. That's the way it is for many immigrants. I'll always appreciate and admire the sacrifice he made for my brother and myself. And I have no sympathy for those like these rioters who receive free public eduction, public assistance, legal protections against employment discrimination yet want to destroy the society that sustains them.

Posted by: Howard, Fine & Howard at November 7, 2005 12:15 PM

From post above -- dissembling and distorting the facts --

"We'd like to be accountants or work in businesses, but we know that as soon as people hear we have Muslim names and that we live on the Mitry estate in Aulnay, we won't even get interviews."

Could it be that employers don't want to commit suicide by hiring a Muslim workforce that will threaten violence if they don't get what they want? Is it possible that, unlike their insane fantasist socialist politicians, business owners in France don't want to jeopardize their financial well being by hiring employees who will disrupt the workplace -- demand stopping work to pray 5 times a day -- demanding separate prayer rooms, demand separating women from men in the workplace, demand Muslim demands on the secular work place, and then hold the threat of violence and work stoppages if those Muslim demands aren't met? Quoting these so-called surveys only exposes your agenda to equate Muslim aggression with Western style worker agitation for equality and rights.

Where are the corollary strikes and work stoppages in Muslim countries where conditions are so much worse? They don't appear ANYWHERE -- WHY??? Because the real goal is not 'workers rights' as we know them in the West... But rather the wholesale implementation of MUSLIM rules and MUSLIM rituals in "infidel" lands... Muslim actions ARE NOT attempts to agitate for workers rights except to the extent that these MUSLIM demands to further ISLAMIC and exclusively MUSLIM VALUES...

Shukri --- you are a marxist Islamofascist apologist extraordinaire! Why don't you move to France and stop spreading your seditious filth in the land of the true believers? Go to one of your marxist hell holes like North Korea, China, or Russia, or to one of your heathen Muslim hell-holes and spew your garbage there! You're dirtying up this clean well lit place...

Posted by: jsla at November 7, 2005 12:29 PM

It's high time Muslims understood something: Their beliefs are deeply offensive to most people outside their faith. It's not about 'race'. It's not about 'discrimination'. It's about what Muslims believe and what they do as a consequence of their beliefs. And our being offended by all this.

The hard fact is Islam is in part conspiracy to commit multiple homicides. The Qur'an devotes endless passages to inspire "Muslims" to do this and how to go about doing this. We're supposed to permit this?

No one outside Islam wants ANYTHING to do with it or its 'believers.' None of us knows when the next Islamic-perpetrated 9-11 will occur. None of us knows if or when Muslim immigrants will decide to fulfill the Qur'anic command to "slay the infidels." None of us knows if our seemingly friendly Muslim immigrants are on our side, or are hiding the fact they are secretly jihadists, or, if our seemingly friendly Muslim immigrants will turn on us without our knowledge at some point in the future. And we are supposed to WELCOME such people???

Not once can I recall a Muslim nation expressing good will towards ANY non-Islamic land. Yet we in the western democracies are told again and again we must accommodate Muslim immigrants who, once settled, curiously often express belonging to the umma... and not the host nation. If Muslims don't like western democracies I certainly wouldn't encourage them to remain in any of them. Especially since I happen to know Muslims have come to the western democracies primarily to shove sharia'a't law down our throats.

Islam discriminates against US. It is extemely offensive and homicidal at its core (which is why Islam is often veiled under secrecy). And that is the reason for the so-called plight of France's Muslims--it is self-inflicted to the very end.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 7, 2005 1:18 PM

It's Shukri - You haven't been around for a long time! Say Shukri, IA is back too!

Seeing both of you approve with sex with girls as young as nine, simply because Mohammed did, why don't you both just bugger off with each other?

I suppose Shukri, you are trying to tell all here that the burning in Germany and Denmark is also because of French discrimination? Hmmmm yes?

Yep - that's Muslim Mulla logic for you. No wonder the Muslims haven't discovered anything of importance since the 7th century.

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at November 7, 2005 1:28 PM

Perhaps the best reply to the Muslim poster about low economic achievement by Muslims in France, and indeed everywhere, is to ask what it is about Islam that might explain it. What blend of inculcated hostility toward Infidels -- since such hostility isseldom concealed, or ill-concealed, Infidels might, after a while, begin to respond in kind (can you blame them?) -- and of inshallah-fatalism be responsible for whatever supposed travails Muslims in France, Muslims in Belgium, Muslims in Spain, Muslims in Italy, Muslims in the United Kingdom, Muslims in Germany (but here the Turkish immigrants, having had both a life-saving early immersion program in Turkish secularism, so that even if they "return to Islam" they still have not lived under its full mental burden, all experience), Muslims everywhere in the Bilad al-kufr, are said to experience. Yes, it is deeply unsatisfactory to Muslims to have to wait while the Da'wa and demographic conquest through overbreeding works their ineluctable inevitable magic. It is deeply unsatisfying to have to work beside, and still worse to take orders from, an Infidel boss. What could be more humiliating, more unjust, more unfair, more against the natural order of things?

And then there is the question of Islam and economic activity at all. Remember that even after the receipt of $10 trillion in OPEC money, Arab and Muslim countries have nowhere managed to create modern economies. Everywhere they rely on Infidel technology, Infidel wage-slaves from Europe and America at the top, and lesser kinds of Infidel wage-slaves, or even outright slaves, from Asia and Africa, at the bottom. If, after the receipt of $10 trillion dollars since 1973 (with hundreds of billions in oil revenues received in the period of roughly 1945-1973), so that a Saudi or Kuwait child of 15 in 1973 is now 47, and both his generation, and that of his children, have grown up with the most fabul0ous unearned wealth in history, yet have produced -- well, have produced what, exactly? And how have Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, or the other Arab Muslim states, helped in any way Egypt, or Jordan, or Pakistan, or Indonesia, or any of the poorer Muslim nations, as compared to the vast sums poured in by the ever-generous, ever-willing-to-help Infidel nations? Should we pay no attention to this, should we be polite enough never to mention this?

Clearly economists need to turn their attention to this matter, and to study what it is about Islam itself, the kinds of attitudes, including the habit of mental submission, that Islam fosters, the kind of not laziness but rather inshallah-fatalism, that does not disappear when Muslims in large numbers (so that their Islam is, so to speak, indulged and kept up) settle in the Lands of the Infidels. As long as they have the possiblity of living on the Infidel dole, they will. They will not make a move. How different from the Hindus, from the Vietnamese, from the Chinese, from the eager Filiipino domestic workers so much in demand in Italy, or now the workers from Latin America now sensibly being allowed in to Spain to replace the Moroccans whose real cost, to keep in the country, is as with all Muslims, far higher than whatever wages they are paid.

V. S. Naipaul noted in his two studies of Islam ("Among the Believres" and "Beyond Belief") the rejection of the West that took place as the same time as all the technological goodies of the West were eagerly accepted and exploited. In a sense, Islam is, as reflected in the attitudes of so many of its adherents, a kind of gigantic cargo-cult, where primitives receive magical gifts which dropfrom Big Birds flying above. The primitive cargo-cultists, of cousrse, had no desire to destroy or kill the pilots of those magical planes dropping manna from Heaven. Muslims both would like Islam to dominate, and have no interest in accepting the ways of the Infidels (always accepting those Muslims who entirely jettison Islam, so are no longer Muslims), or doing anything but ultimately gaining control, not by outright military conquest, but by conquest of minds, conquest of the obstetrics wards, conquest through Da'wa in the prisons, and then the schools, and then -- well, everywhere that the young, or the alienated, are conveniently gathered together, and can be appealed to, and their vulnerabilities played upon.

It is no longer just the West that is demonstrably superior to the world of Islam. It is also the East -- the world of East Asia, and of India with its despised Hindus. It is not Islam and the West, but Islam at war with All the Rest. The most important prize is Western Europe. During the very decades when the OPEC oil revenues provided the wherewithal for the Jihad (the "money weapon" used to build mosques, madrasas, and to buy influence through an army of agents and apologists), European elites were criminally negligent as to the tenets and atttudes and immutable texts, and therefore teachings and attitudes, of Islam. Some were simply in thrall to the Idols of the Age, that insisted that everyone was the same, wanted the same thing, and the Big Event in world history was colonialism and its ever-young hate-child, post-colonialism, and that guilt over this should define and determine everything that Western European governments did in relation to those unblemished, innocent, constantly more-sinned-against-than-sinning Muslims, whether they came from Algeria (which did have a Western presence) or from places -- there are so many in the Arab and Muslim world -- that had little or no experience with colonialism. That criminal negligence continues today, among all those who still are attempting not to remove the collective blinkers, but merely to adjust them -- ever so slightly.

Islam creates Believers who are permanently hostile to all non-Muslims, and do not wish them well -- or rather, the "well" that they wish them is that they submit to Islam, and to the authority of the Muslims, the best of peoples.

In their view, they possess a divine right to dominate the world. 1350 years of history teaches them that they have come a long way, and they believe now that they can go the distance. What is it, in Western Europe's current reaction, that would lead them to think otherwise? What is it in the prating about "democracy" and the falling all over themselves to praise Islam, by the American government or its far-sighted strategists -- you know, people of the caliber of Bush and Rice -- that would give Muslims cause for alarm?

Yes, Muslims have a point. They always do. They wish us well. They wish us -- Islam. And that doesn't necessarily require that everyone become a Muslim, at least not right away. It does however require that the Infidels demonstrate a willingness to submit to the justified dictates of Muslims wherever they may live. The only thing that distinguishes Dar al-Harb from Dar al-Islam is that, as yet, too many inhabitants of the former still resist giving Islam and Muslims their rightful place.

That is their point. And that is the point, underneath it all, of all those rioters in France today. How silly, how stubborn, how unreasonable for all the rest of us to wish to resist, or even to disagree.

Sorry not to be more accommodating.

Posted by: Hugh at November 7, 2005 1:29 PM

Shukri -

muslims' Problems are muslims' problem. Not the West's. Pack up and get out. The West owes islam nothing.

No muslims. No mosques.

Posted by: Havoc at November 7, 2005 1:57 PM

Shukri...still in there giving it your best shot...I have a basic belief that everyone is doing the best they can at any given moment, if they could do better, they would...your doing the best you can, but it's not quite good enough.
You got to do better...Allah is depending on you...There must be a car nearby you can set on fire...Allah likes that a lot better than empty talk. Muslims have discovered one of the secrets of Allah's happiness...burning cars...over 5000 in France now...Allah is getting happier and happier by the second. You could get that started where you live...all you need is some gas, matches and a victim...I'm sure you could easilly find all three...Allah would be pleased...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 7, 2005 2:14 PM

Hugh - good post. It's always the "poor me, I'm the poor discriminated against Muslim".

While I can only speak from an Australian perspective, which I suspect mimics the English (after all our academic elite’s like to think they are original, but in reality they are "mind colonies" of the PC academic elite in the EU and USA), fact is in the West in general, WE ARE NOT racist.

In Australia we have Asian members of government at all levels. We have people from every corner of the globe in our churches, universities (where they get a real subversive lesson in PC) and living in peace within our communities (with the exception of Islam). Above all, members of EVERY religion are free to go into parliament (in fact one of our senior Australian Labour Party members is a Malaysian born lesbian, how much more PC can one get? Not to mention we now have an Islamic Party in Australia called ‘The Best’ Party which advocates the murder of Australian troops in Iraq, yeeeeessss Rof P indeed! Oh and “Sultan Dean” who thinks Jews committed 9/11is a branch president of the Liberal Party). Not to mention the HUGE number of mixed marriages that one sees in Australia (in my family alone there are two, including my own marriage - not bad for being influenced by my fiery Scottish WASP grandmother!)

How many Arabic colonized (aka Islamic) countries will we find that in? Answer: None! Not even Turkey.

These rioters are free to leave France and the EU any time they like. After all if conditions are so bad, I'm sure many a Frenchman (be they Christian, Catholic, Atheist, Humanist, Hindu, Buddhist etc) would GLADLY donate their hard earned cash to give them a one way ticket back to Dar Al Islam where they can be "happy".

Fact is this riot has NOTHING to do with being poor (where are all the riots in Hindu India? Thailand? China? Oh silly me, there are none, these are not ISLAMIC countries!), and everything to do with Arabic expansionism (Islamic takeover). Frankenstan is coming.

What WILL Denmark and Germany be called in Eurabia?

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at November 7, 2005 2:27 PM

As many poster point out, the victim theory is bogus. It is a favorite by Muslims as it reflects the historic inferiority complex of islam vis-vis he west.

This manufactured sense of injustice and victim mentality then leads to the glorification of violence. Thus, the barrier to integration is not a discriminating host society but lies at the core of islamic based culture itself.

Ofcourse the other reason for choosing the pretext of boredom for the violence is that the other pretext of Iraq is unavailable. But, alas, there will always be some reason.

Posted by: raven_ at November 7, 2005 3:28 PM

You are so wrong 3rdtimelucky !!!

India has seen umpteen riots in the name of religion.

http://www.soundvision.com/info/india/godhra.asp

for a start ...

Posted by: TheHindu at November 7, 2005 3:38 PM

Can't possibly be Muslims. Everyone knows Mercedes, Audi, VW, Porsche and BMW spontaneously combust. But wouldn't it be ironic if the cars that were burned were Peugots, Citroens and Renaults?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at November 7, 2005 3:57 PM

I think it was jsla who mentioned employability, business suicide; one interesting example comes from Qatar.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=October2005&file=World_News2005102982032.xml

Can anyone let me know how to shorten the link. apologies to all.

What struck me was the tone of the article........ it's like, "jesus, its easter, Phil and Billy will be punching each others lights out again over the......[fill in]".

and as for the quote "The daily took a pick particularly at Qatari government employees saying that for most of them, Ramadan was a month of avoiding food and work". well sums it up really. A whole month! trying to avoid work.

Posted by: muckyundercarriage at November 7, 2005 5:02 PM

TheHindu - I meant that you don't see the same riots occuring in non Islamic communities. The article you posted is full of a particular word/s

"Islamic/Moslem".

They are at the heart of sooooooooooooooo much strife in the world.

In fact when I watch our SBS world news, I wonder how much bigger the sports report that follows would be if Islam didn't exist.

There are pleanty of infidel poor in the world. They don't seem to kill, loot, burn, murder, rape like the Muslims do. That was the point I was trying to make.

TheHindu - your article proves one thing - where there are Muslims, there is always trouble that is sure to follow.....

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at November 7, 2005 5:15 PM

Tell me 'TheHindu' - Was India Islamic or Hindu first?

ANS: Hindu before the armed Islamic invasions.

Tell me 'TheHindu', who is responsible for the ongoing strife in Kashmir?

ANS: Muslims from the Pakistan side. From what I see it is the Indians who are being more tolerant (exceptionally so)

Tell me 'TheHindu', were these Hindu militants chanting their holy books as the caused the fight?

ANS: according to the article – NO. But Muslims do all the time.

Tell me TheHindu, when Ghandi and his fellow Hindu's wanted the Poms out of India, did they riot in streets, burn and maim, kill rape and loot as we see Muslims in France doing today (oh and Israel, Thailand, Philippines, China, Russia, Australia, UK, USA, and that Hindu of all places BALI???

Ans: No – Ghandi is remembered for being against such action.

TheHindu - you cannot expect to continually cause war, and that's what Islam does, without the infidels, rightly or wrongly reacting. The article you give is one of infidels reacting to a war created by Islam 1000’s of years ago.

Islam is all about war. It divides the world into the "House of Peace" - Dar Al Islam, and 'The House of War' - dar Al Harb. The house of peace cannot have peace until it has finished off the house of war.

Islam perpetuates war. War invites a reaction. TheHindu, if you really are a Hindu, I hope you are aware of the millions upon millions of Hindu's who have been slaughtered at the hands of Islam in India, and continue to be murdered in places like India and Bali.

War is to be avoided, but not if it costs you your freedom. Islam is submission and hence it cannot be accepted

Posted by: 3rdtimelucky at November 7, 2005 5:32 PM

Howard, Fine & Howard :

Bravo yourself! As the children and grandchildren of hard working immigrants we don't buy that "Boo-Hoo I'm being disciminated" crap. They were uneducated outsiders who faced REAL discrimination. My mother's family was born in Tijuana, spoke no English, had only a few years of primary education and worked hard to give me a decent start in life. They had NONE of the oppurtunities these ungrateful barbarians have, feel no pity.

Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 7, 2005 8:59 PM