I do find the Muslim - especially the Palestinian reactions - to the Jordan bombings somewhat extraordinary, from a moral perspective. Because obviously the Muslim moral perspective is essentially a tribal one (i.e. what is good for us is GOOD and what is bad for us is BAD - obviously the epitome of the "US vs Them" primitive mindset).

I can't help but wonder whether these Amman bombings might not provide a narrow fissure into the seemingly impenetrable, primitive Muslim moral edifice so that just a slight glimmer of light might be cast by a fundamental moral precept of the west - something which SO forms the backdrop of our moral assumptions about proper action, that the vast majority of westerners probably couldn't even identify it by name, they take it so for granted. I am thinking here of Kant's "categorical imperative":

"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law." (Wikipedia)

Kant's categorical imperative strikes me as closely related to the Golden Rule but not exactly (caveat here - I was not a philosophy major), because with regards to the Golden Rule, one could have odd personal proclivities that one would not necessarily desire to be writ as universal law.

In any case, I do think the obviously self-serving nature of Muslim morality has been on full display since these bombings and I sincerely hope that these incidents might percipitate just a tiny bit of moral self-reflection.

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 8:38 PM

In plain words:Its legit to blow up a bunch of Christians,Jews and others but its wrong to kill Muslims?I can hardly belive that,in a free country you can call for murder of others!The setllers are military ppl?Really?A pregnant mother with her 4 daugthers murdered by point blank shooting in the head?An animal wouldnt do that,only a Muslim who is full of heatred is capable do do such a thing,in the name of some false god!!!

Posted by: Thomas at November 11, 2005 8:39 PM

This is off topic but here is an interesting site

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/vhadith.html

Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at November 11, 2005 8:59 PM

Heres a good point. I'll tell you what these Muslims really remind me of. In that star trek series (no im not a fan) there is an alien race called the borg. The borg are a living mind, loads of people who have been forcefully assimilated into the borg, and they walk around like cyber zombies, wilfully giving up their lives for the borg. Its the same scary kind of thing with the Nazis. Everything they do is to further the plans of the select leaders. They are one body, with one aim. to assimilate all creation into the borg.

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 9:02 PM

Robert, Hugh,

Would you consider a post this evening about Bush's Veteran's Day speech today?

http://jewishworldreview.com/1105/bush_vets_day.php3

Despite lots of accurate content, Bush says these unfortunate things as well:

--

Some call this evil "Islamic radicalism," others "militant jihadism" and still others "Islamofacism." Whatever it's called, this ideology is very different from the religion of Islam. This form of radicalism exploits Islam to serve a violent, political vision -- the establishment by terrorism, subversion and insurgency of a totalitarian empire that denies all political and religious freedom. These extremists distort the idea of jihad into a call for terrorist murder against Christians and Hindus and Jews and against Muslims themselves who do not share their radical vision.

and

Many Muslim scholars have already publicly condemned terrorism, often citing Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran, which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all of humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all humanity.

--
You guys know what to do with this.. Please do not let up. To me, the biggest problem with this message is that it implies to his entire audience that if only more Muslims would follow a "true", non-"distorted" version of Islam, we'd all be fine...

Posted by: kamala at November 11, 2005 9:51 PM

Oh so only bombing Muslims is bad. OK thanks for clarifying the Islamic position for me.

Posted by: JadeDragoness at November 11, 2005 9:53 PM

The Englishman -

Actually Ali Sina at faithfreedom.org beat you to that metaphor. Even Spengler at The Asia Times picked up on Sina's analogy:

"Sina writes: "Islam is not a religion. Considering Islam a religion is a foolish mistake that could cost millions of lives. Islam is a political movement set to conquer the world. It is the Borg of the non-fictional world. Islam has one goal and one goal alone: to assimilate or to destroy.""

The first horror movie I recall was when I was 5 or 6 years old. I think it was called "The Blob". It was a big huge, well, BLOB, that kept growing throughout the movie. If my recollection is correct, some man ran right into it on the upper story of some 1950's type suburban house and it swallowed him up. (I really don't need to be thinking about this kind of stuff before bedtime. :-) In any case, I sometimes wonder if the Blob was the inspiration for the "Borg".

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 10:01 PM

Kamala - there is a distinct possibility that Bush's body has been "snatched"!

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 10:03 PM

Damn, i had a feeling someone else may have already made that anology. Oh well, but the borg was defeated, and the nazis, who are basically the same kind of thing, also lost. Maybe this is a hopeful sign?

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 10:10 PM

The Englishman -

So do tell - how DID the Star Trek crew defeat the Borg? (I missed that episode or, er, that entire season and you never know what little factoid might come in handy down the road..)

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 10:16 PM

I cant really remember, my brothers the fan. I think they somehow defeat the central 'brain' or something.

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 10:17 PM

Hmmm. Quite right. Yes, now that you mention it, mass lobotomy is obviously the solution. :-)

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 10:25 PM

there is a distinct possibility that Bush's body has been "snatched"!

Bush's mind has been snatched -- but not by Muslims: by our PC Leftist culture. As have millions of others of our fellow Infidels. It began long ago. It's the reason why you find so much difficulty trying to convince your neighbor, your family member, your local bookstore, your local church, your local newspaper, your teachers, your state representatives, etc.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 11, 2005 10:27 PM

Nope, I'm afraid that Bush probably still has the same opinions as when he started. However the disatrous Iraq war, (which was the exact response old usama wanted) and failing economy + the fierce hatred of him here in happy ole euro land has forced him to back track.

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 10:33 PM

"...there is a distinct possibility that Bush's body has been "snatched"! Caroline
___________________

I think Caroline nailed it. The unsuspecting masses are being infected with media-borne Islamo-spores that implant themselves in mushy brained hosts. The host pupates into an apathy pod and...

Posted by: Thumper at November 11, 2005 10:39 PM

Can someone please tell me, what is the general view in America? I dont trust British media at all, in fact I only watch the news now so as to laugh at the ridiculous rubbish the news readers seem to spew out

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 10:44 PM

I don't think the Borg analogies are particularly helpful. The Islamics believe as Christians and Jews do - that they are following the instructions and revelations of God. Unfortunately, Allah tells them to kill, fight, lie to enemies and non-Muslims.

Leon Uris did a novel some 30 years ago called "The Hajj" which addresses most of the things we discuss in these forums about Islam.

It is a closed-minded theology that belongs in the Dark Ages. It is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and progress. The great tragedy is that as they kill us, they dig themselves into a deeper pit, both spiritually and politically. I'm convinced the only reason Islam has advanced in Europe is that Europe is spiritually sicker than Islam - hence no babies and no work ethic, etc.

Maybe something good will come of the riots in France and the bombings in Amman. Maybe a lot of Muslims will rise up and forcibly redefine what it is to be Muslim. For now, from the perspective of the West, it just mean no freedoms, terror murder and wanton riots.

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem - AND Paris.

Posted by: rafael699 at November 11, 2005 10:45 PM

Dr. Pepper - you might find this article by Tracinski, in Jewish World Review, of interest. He never explicitly uses the term "post-modernism" but I think that's the philosophical term for what he's describing:

Multiculturalism and the Self-Liquidation of Europe

Posted by: Caroline at November 11, 2005 10:45 PM

rafael699-

there seems to be a little misunderstanding. I meant that the Islamists, ie: extremists were the borg, with relation to the way that they give up their life simply to further the Islamic cause. The idea is that individualism is lost, they become one body.

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 10:53 PM

"Can someone please tell me, what is the general view in America?" the Englishman
_____________

Of what 'ol chap. No unified national consensus on anything. America of late is becoming blocks of states that are ideological countries unto themselves. Stick to Fox News - not perfect but closer to sanity.

Posted by: Thumper at November 11, 2005 10:58 PM

As a programmer, I've known many Muslims. Many of them are very rational - indeed a lot of Iranian Muslims have moved away from the faith. I believe that the radicals and those that tacitly support them are no more than 35-40% of all Muslims. It's not an ideal situation, but it's more realistic than thinking any and all Muslims will snap to attention and obey orders - or suddenly become virulent jihadis.

There was a time when Nazis and Communists were just as dogmatic and hard-headed. It will take time, but there are many divisions in Islam that support Islamic expansion, but want nothing to do with political pressure, terrorism or war.

Look at the Iranians who have settled in Orange CO, California. The vast majority have abandoned Islam for the very secular life of typical Americans. In Europe, the slums are full of influential Imams, but even in France every year, at least a few thousand Muslims convert to Christianity.

I understand the Borg analogy, but Muslims still are human beings and do turn from Islam. By no means do they all act as a collective. I'm no supporter of Islam, but I cannot imagine living one day under that system and would hope the Muslims themselves can unplug themselves from that particular collective as soon as possible.

I think it was Edmund Burke who said of Islam: "I can think of no other system of social organization that so shackles the mind and spirit of man as does Islam."

Posted by: rafael699 at November 11, 2005 11:02 PM

I agree with every word you say mate

Posted by: The Englishman at November 11, 2005 11:05 PM

Mr Englishman,
I happen to agree with your Borg analogy. You also asked: Can someone please tell me, what is the general view in America?
Sadly, the general view is that no one wants to "make waves." The media avoids anything controversial, as sponsors HATE controversy. Most intelligent people avoid serious discourse about the nature of Islam for fear of being "politically incorrect". We have two major national news networks. one is owned by Ted Turner, who is very liberal. I heard him say on air that we should deal with North Korea by listening to them and trusting them to make changes. I call him "red ted."Fox news, althogh I am pretty conservative, is sort of our "Pravda." It will never seriously challenge a Republican administration.
People who realize that Islam is the great threat of this generation have basically moved to the political right. We vote Republican generally, even though we have disagreements with Bush. People like Mr Spencer are sadly few and far between.
Our media is not more responsible then yours. I wish it was. But it is corrupt and afraid to make waves. The whole thing is depressing.

Posted by: templar at November 11, 2005 11:17 PM

The Englishman,

The Big Man will tell you his views. Try "terrorist" or "bat day." I must issue a profanity warning however.

http://www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com/videos/

Posted by: butterfly at November 11, 2005 11:26 PM

Caroline:
I do find the Muslim - especially the Palestinian reactions - to the Jordan bombings somewhat extraordinary, from a moral perspective. Because obviously the Muslim moral perspective is essentially a tribal one (i.e. what is good for us is GOOD and what is bad for us is BAD - obviously the epitome of the "US vs Them" primitive mindset).

That's situational ethics done Muhammadan style. The Arab world is very callous about the mass murdering of Iraq's Shi'ite by the Zarqawi's Sunni terrorists. The Arab world likes suicide bombers who kill Shi'ites and Jews. But when they suicide bomb Arab Sunnis, all of a sudden it becomes an outrage. A crime against Islam

These Muslims are logic impaired.
The males are driven by clashing emotions
File under:
Crazy from the sun in Araby

Posted by: dennisw at November 12, 2005 12:00 AM

"there are many divisions in Islam that support Islamic expansion, but want nothing to do with political pressure, terrorism or war."
Posted by: rafael69
___________________

If only rafael could be a fly on the wall when these "moderates" are sequestered among themselves. I live in an area with a large population of Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Jordanians etc. I have heard some of their "moderate" comments. All you have to do is mention the word "Israel" and you will see that "tacitness" dissolve.

Posted by: Thumper at November 12, 2005 12:04 AM

I have read there is no concept of hypocrisy in the Arab mind. That might explain how Palestinian can celebrate the deaths of 3000 Americans, hand out sweets after every suicide bombing in Isreal. Yet wail and decry the suicide bombing of Muslims by Muslims in Jordan.That would also explain The strange reaction of the suicide bomber who could not imagine the families of his victims taking revenge on his own family.All I can say is, would be terrorists and their supporters need to wake up and smell the coffee.I recall a reporters question during a press conference at the time of the Afghan war. Rumsfeld was asked about the families of terrorists who were with them at Tora Bora. His response was the people who were in the mountains knew exactly who they were associating with. In others words, the lives of terrorists loved ones are not our problem.

Posted by: Roxane at November 12, 2005 1:38 AM

I for one think that it is outrageous that we still have mosques within the United States where Imam's can deliver messages of praise for suicide attacks against whomever they feel. I believe there is a point where words go to far, especially when we are dealing with this present issue of Islamic Terrorism, even if the statmement was conveyed in the past. Those type of comments do not give the American public a better, and more positive understanding of Islam. Instead, it only furthers this bias and misconception that the American people have toward Islam. At what point does freedom of speech cross the line? This unfortunately is the view most people have of Imam's (assuming that they know what the differnce between an imam: leader to prayer in a mosque, and an Imam: spiritual and political leader, really is). This only makes it tougher to convince the American Public of the positive attributes of the religion of Islam, and that the negatives ones that can be associated with terrorism.

Posted by: vinman15 at November 12, 2005 2:44 AM

vinman sez:

"... it only furthers this bias and misconception that the American people have toward Islam..."

"Misconceptions?" GWB and Condi are surely on the wrong side of the tracks when they keep talking about "the RoP being 'hijacked' by extremists" or similar nonsense.

And that Imams within the US openly praise suicide attacks against Americans (or others) done in the name of Islam?

They do get away with it because they disguise this violent ideology as a "religion"- it has religious rituals, plenty of them. But all in all Islam is a stratagem of war, the Koran is the guidebook to terrorism and the history of this "great religion" clearly shows that it was all along about booty and conquest.

Ask "Mohideen"- he-ll tell you. He sez booty is "a gift from god"...

And the "positive attributes of Islam?" What would they be?

So far we haven't found any....

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 12, 2005 4:18 AM

Now that didn't take long: Don't say 'I told you so...'

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/12/international/middleeast/12amman.html?hp&ex=1131858000&en=54a289433d88c488&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at November 12, 2005 5:28 AM

HAHA! very amusing link. We know that the israelis would never do such a thing, as their ideology does not preach members to kill themselves and many others in the process. More proof of the either unbelievable dimwittedness of these people, blindness or perhaps they are simply lying.

Posted by: The Englishman at November 12, 2005 6:16 AM

Can anyone tell me the part of the Koran, verses, etc where it states about allowing Muslims to kill Christians and Jews, and where l can get translations. l would like to have it for my one of my brothers. when l told him of this site, he said it was racists blah blah.. he cant help himself,he is a school teacher, his education l think creates stupidity, no more common sense..thanks

Posted by: Lulu at November 12, 2005 7:07 AM

hey sheik,
great link. I don't know if this is a "racist comment", but how stupid can these Arabs be? I heard many Arabs blame Israel for 9/11. Sure, you dopes, Israel, the nation with the WORLDS NUMBER TWO AIR FORCE, A NATION THAT ANNHILATED THE COMBINED FORCE OF THE ARAB WORLD IN LESS THAN A WEEK, WOULD TURN TO ARAB STYLE TERRORRISM?!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
YOu F@#$ing IDIOTS.....IF ISRAEL ATTACKED YOU, YOU WOULD KNOW IT!!!!!!
AM YISROEL CHAI
GOD BLESS AMERICA
DEFEAT JIHAD

Posted by: templar at November 12, 2005 12:09 PM

Elsayed said: … If I were there, I would use every power in my hand to defend my family.”

With regard to Islam vs. everyone else, just who shows restraint and who doesn't?

Would Elsayed want Israel to "use every power?"

Islamists are a ticking time bomb.

Posted by: Report at November 12, 2005 1:56 PM

Thanks for the link Caroline, I agree with everything Tracinski wrote. I've bookmarked his site and will likely read more of him.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 12, 2005 3:13 PM

Dr Pepper -

If you liked that article, then be sure to also check out this one:

Uncertain Uncertainty: Postmodernism Unravels

It refers to the same folks as does the Tracinski article but makes clear that what we laymen call "muticulturalism" has its roots in a particular philosophical tradition - namely "Postmodernism". Further, it suggests that this Philosophical tradition actually derives from Physics - namely Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

What I find interesting about all these links is that historically, discoveries in Physics have often driven parallel philosophical movements (think Galileo) which have in turn had enormous historical ramifications. It's usually in retrospect that people are able to connect the dots between Science, Philosophy and History (or in any case, that's how we usually put it all together in the classroom). It's harder to connect all the dots when one is immersed in the unfolding of the historical epoch itself. If it's true though that we are in the midst of the 'Information Age', then maybe it will be possible that we can connect all the dots in real time - and actually alter history in the making, so that our great-great grandchildren don't wind up reading about the "Postmodern Era" that resulted in the end of western civilization.

Posted by: Caroline at November 12, 2005 5:40 PM

I've only been reading this thread today, but this last link is great, Caroline...!

It may be the "Information Age" or a new "Babel" -- I think one thing is certain -- the contours of our present day reality will only become clearer later, and then only imperfectly -- This has always been the way...

I don't want the luddites to prevail, but I understand their terror when they look at the world we have created, and witness the frenzy with which we seem to be tearing it down -- deconstructing history, religion, philosophy, language, physics, economics, governance -- even reality itself -- all this while we move from technological revolution to technological revolution... sometimes mid-breath...

It's fair to ask "Where is this all leading?" "Is this really a good thing?" These are perfectly good and centrally important questions, but our pace leaves little or no time to ask and reflect! However, I also think this pattern -- human actions lurching us forward into uncertain and unknown possible futures -- this has also always been the way...

I don't accept the indictments by the 8th centurions of Islam, the recalcitrant failed communists and socialists, or the post-modernist nihilists, or their peers in the new fanatical religions of false sciences and latter day anti-heroes -- but they do have real reasons to feel worried -- I understand that part, and share their feelings in part...

Posted by: jsla at November 12, 2005 6:40 PM

Thanks Caroline, I'll read that one too. I'm not sure the era of postmodern Western self-hatred begins with Heisenberg, though that could have been an important trigger along the way and/or a symptomatic expression of a larger disease that began in the 19th or 18th century. Also, I believe modern Western nihilism is not really nihilism: it often is selective nihilism; just as modern Western cultural relativism turns out to be not really relativism but simply a way to tear down Western culture while building up non-Western cultures (Islam being the pet non-Western culture in fashion).

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 12, 2005 7:40 PM

often citing Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran, which states that killing an innocent human being is like killing all of humanity, and saving the life of one person is like saving all humanity.

Klep-toed from Judaism, as usual....

Posted by: Kemaste at November 13, 2005 12:55 AM

The Jordanian reaction is appalling. As long as other humans(preferably Jews) deck the portico like a bloodied Jackson Pollack, it's no big deal.

G-d forbid it should happen to them. G-d forbid it should happen to us.

Posted by: Kemaste at November 13, 2005 2:21 AM

Dr. Pepper said: " I believe modern Western nihilism is not really nihilism: it often is selective nihilism; just as modern Western cultural relativism turns out to be not really relativism but simply a way to tear down Western culture while building up non-Western cultures..."

Indeed -- these things are probably more accurately described as pseudo fill-in-the-blank... We have seen a certain tinge of fascism enter the pseudo liberal dialogue of feminists and leftists in America, as well as out-and-out racism... When we hear prominent black race pimps referring to persons such as Rice and Powell as "House niggers" and "uncle Toms" the indictment is PROVED... This deplorable language is bizarre and totally counterproductive on the face of it... So what purpose is served by denigrating blacks who have attained the highest offices in the land? Leaving aside whether they are particularly good or bad Sec.s of State, isn't the REAL purpose of this race baiting (by both black and whit race pimps in the extreme left) just thinly veiled verbal violence directed at keeping the black constituency in line? The thought that a black person or hispanic person could embrace positions somewhere to the right of Fidel Castro fills these pseudo-liberals with such rage and venom that the fangs come out and the poison is spewed indiscriminately --

Groups such as PETA, or ELF also display a fantastic hypocrisy in their embrace of terrorism and violence to promote their supposedly peace-based friends of the earth positions... In addition their embrace of false sciences and other sophistry proves that they are demagogues of the highest (that is lowest) order... Little more than destructive radicals hiding behind empty arguments to further sometimes ill defined but always destructive ideologies... They are enemies too and should be treated as such... In fact, these seditious groups do much to illegitimize others who honestly embrace the ideas of civil disobedience and protest to accomplish productive and positive changes in society at large -- Therefore their actions don't only further their radical and primarily destructive agendas, but they rob true dissent of its legitimacy by the magnitude of their illegitimacy...

Posted by: jsla at November 13, 2005 1:18 PM