http://www.uga.edu/islam/shiism.html

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 17, 2005 7:10 PM

The Shrine of the Hidden Imam "Twelver" (Ithna 'ashari) Shi'ites believe that including 'Ali there were twelve rightful descendants of the Prophet in his role as political and spiritual leader of the Muslims. They believe that the twelfth of these, the Hidden Imam, never died but rather "occulted," which is to say that he left this material plane of being and went to a metaphysical plane of being, from where he will return to the material plane near the end of time in order to inaugurate a new era for humankind.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 17, 2005 7:12 PM

Good! I am glad that you posted this article. I thought it was significant. Many Iranians, including ia786, await the Mahdi's return. We should not discount their sincerity nor their fanaticism.

However, what conclusions should we draw from this data if it is true? Obviously, allowing Iranians to have nuclear weapons would be a mistake.

Posted by: Mentat at November 17, 2005 7:12 PM

He may appear, but he will not be the one promised by G-d.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=9

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 17, 2005 7:27 PM

Hm...can we say "antichrist"? Just a thought...

Posted by: pastor_matt023 at November 17, 2005 7:42 PM

DEMOCRATS VOTE NO on If a Doctor is in the house or sentae would be to pratice Med as long as he/she made no profet??

so I ran thinks this is the end of times so in their book it means all out war??

and looks like I ran thinks they will come ot on top??

SAD SAD!!!

Last I saw they were doing much better the womans coats were getting pretty but I hear things are worse Sad Sad Looks like your leaders in I-ran are going to get you killed!!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at November 17, 2005 8:00 PM

According to Shi'ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi'ites consider descended from the Prophet Mohammed, disappeared in 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.

Descended from the Prophet Mohammed? Which part?

Posted by: DCWatson at November 17, 2005 8:02 PM

Uh-huh.

It's said that diplomacy is the art of saying
"Nice doggie!" until you find a big enough rock.
Have we found the rock yet? I have some ideas!

Posted by: American at November 17, 2005 8:10 PM

The myth of the 12th Imam, is illustrative of the ability of man to create reality in his mind, because he needs that create reality to validate his beliefs and the actions that arise from that belief.

In the eight century, The Shi'a split over the question of the rightful successor to Jar al Dadiq, the great-great-great grandson of Ali and the sixth Shi'a Imam. BTW, Ali means Exalted and his name is anachronistic, it is Ali bin Abu Talib which means The Exalted son of the father of the Student, and of course Ali (4th Sunni successor or Caliph) is the first Shi'a Imam and his name means literally the Exalted son of the father of the STudent, referring to his status as THE first Student of Muhammad, which in the manner of Arabs, who didn't know his fathers name, gave name to his father as Abu Talib (father of the Student),much like George son of the father of Bush 43.)

The llth Shi'a Imam, Hasan al Askari,died, in 873, without a male heir. Rather than grappling with the question of whom among the descendants of Jafar now held the ,bi>ilm, the knowledge to be an Imam, the faithful reasoned that Hasan MUST have had a son, and that he disappeared in order to avoid persecution at the hands of the Sunni Caliph Abbasid.

A whole range of stories sprung up to fill in the details. This wished into existence son of Hasan al Askare was the Mahdi, the savior of Shi'a eschatology, and that call him Muhammad al Muntazar, and they invented the myth that he went into hiding (occulation) in the caves of Samarra (Iraq) and will emerge at the end times.

In the eighth Century, the Shi'a split over the question of the rightful successor to Jafar al Sadq, the great great great grandson of Ali.and the sixth Shi'a Imam. Originally Ja'afar chose his eldest son Ismail as successor, but he died first.

Simply moving to the next son turned out to be fraught with complications. In a theology in which the imam is considered infallible, the question arouse about Imam Ja'afar's fallability in choosing a successor who would not outlive him.

A second question concerned whether or not Ja'afar's eldest surviving son, Abd Allah, possessed sufficient knowledge in Islamic law annd learnaing to become the Imam, by default than than from convction, Musa al Kazim, another of Ja'afar's sons, was accepted as Imam. Howeve, many Shia clung to Ja'afar's original designation of Ismail and proclaimed his son as imam.These became the Ismails, or seveners, of Shi'a Isla. Still others believed that Ja'afar himself, dead or alive, was the only true Imam.

Musaa and then his son died.That son left his own son and a grandson, both too young to have received adequate instructions in the "hidden knowledge of religion" to qualify as Imam. It was only with Ja'afars great great grandson Hasan that someone in the line emerged as undisputed Imam. then he died without heir and thus began the myth of the hidden (occulated) Imam or Mahdi (divinely guided one, or savior).

This Mahdi, hidden Imam, Muhammad al Muntazar is not someone that will be born, he is in Shi'a eschatologhy already born and has been in hiding for over 1100 years, awaiting the precipitous moment in which he will suddenly appear to deliver the true believers.

Sunni also have a concept of a Mahdi, but this Mahdi will appear with Jesus by his side and subordinate to him, but Sunni's also use the word Mahdi more liberally see Discussion than the Shi'a.

So the President of Iran, and Shi'a Muslims believe in a Mahdi that has been hiding in the caves of Samarra for over 1100 years, beats Methulasah by 200 years and counting.

Posted by: Nariz at November 17, 2005 8:13 PM

Descended from the Prophet Mohammed? Which part?

Posted by: DCWatson at November 17, 2005 08:02 PM

ROTFL!!!

Gold Star for you today!!

Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS TE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER AMEN

Posted by: Catherine at November 17, 2005 8:23 PM

Presidential aides have denied a popular rumor that he ordered his cabinet to write a letter to the 12th Imam and throw it down a well near the holy city of Qom where thousands of pilgrims come each week to pray and drop messages to the Imam.

Shouldn't someone inform the people of Iran that they voted a basket case in power?

Posted by: WineDrinkingInfidel at November 17, 2005 8:51 PM

So, Iran is chockablock with conspiracy theory? One more reason to give no heed to Michael Ledeen, and let that miserable sandpit stew in its own juices.

Posted by: Kepha at November 17, 2005 9:04 PM

These guys are just plain "scary" crazy. The whole ME is just one big looney farm.

Posted by: foursuvs at November 17, 2005 9:39 PM

The Iranians are Shiite Muslims.

So is Muqtada al-Sadr who is fighting against us in Iraq.

Muqtada al-Sadr doesn't call his legions the "Mahdi Army" for nothing:

"Many Shias believe [that] the Mahdi, who is like the Shia Messiah, disappeared in the ninth century from Najaf and they're expecting his return to Najaf. And one of the reasons why they're fighting so bitterly is because many of Muqtada al-Sadr's followers believe that the Mahdi, the Shia messiah, is about to return.
They say this often, he's going to return to kill the Americans, to defeat the Americans and the Jews who are occupying our country. You hear that statement from Muqtada al-Sadr's associates very, very often."

-- The journalist Nir Rosen, speaking at a round-table on August 12, 2004, on the PBS Newshour with Jim Lehrer. Mr. Rosen also added that by all accounts, al-Sadr has tens of thousands of Shia Muslims who follow him.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 17, 2005 10:19 PM

What I find really weird, and this after having lived long in the world in many places good and bad, is that today, even among the people I work with, people who are intelligent and informed and sensitive and decent, there are those who are more afraid of George W. Bush than in any living person on Earth or a flying meteorite hitting our planet. Go figure.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 17, 2005 10:32 PM

sonofwalker,

That's not weird, in the sense of inexplicable; though it is weird in the sense of grotesque.

The idea that Bush, and Christian Fundamentalists & Evangelicals, and Christians in general, and Jews, are more dangerous to the world than Islams is -- this idea has had a long, rich and enormous cultural matrix to evolve into fruition from. This idea didn't just pop out of the blue sky the day Bush took the oath of office. The ground has been laid for decades for such an idea to have the dominance it has now -- and that sociopolitico-cultural ground that nourishes that idea, and its flip-side of tender sensitivity to Islam, is mostly the fault of the Left, who created PC and continue to water it and feed it daily.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 17, 2005 10:56 PM

First we read: "Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi," Ahmadinejad said in the speech to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country.

"Therefore, Iran should become a powerful, developed and model Islamic society."

Then we read: "the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by the creation of chaos on earth."

So, which is it? Iran becoming a model Islamic society -- or, the creation of chaos on earth?

Oh dear, I just got it!

Posted by: Jen at November 17, 2005 10:56 PM

There's a link below that should take you to a very interesting article on French anti-Americanism. I'll seeif I can find another essay that goes into the origins of the idea of generalized New World degeneracy, one that eventually focused specifically on America rather than on the whole of the New World.

Today I picked up a copy of Jhn Gibson, Hating America: the new world sport. Don't know anything about it beyond the title. And in spite of living in the material world I find it almost impossible to believe that basically normal and moral people are hysterical and utterly irrational at the mere mention of Bush's name. It goes to the heart of madness. I'm pressed for time, so if I don't get the other link tonight I'll wait till I see you post again and leave it for you there if you're interested. You probably have lots on this already, but if not I'll pass the next one on.

Jen, I long for a good cup of coffee.

http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com/2005/09/because-they-can-french.html

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 17, 2005 11:40 PM

http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com/2005/08/fascist-roots-of-anti-americanism.html

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 17, 2005 11:43 PM

Islamic end times ideology is absolutely chilling; it drives this horrible man, and many, many others. I sometimes wonder just how influential end times mentality is in invigorating the global jihad. Perhaps JihadWatch could run an article or two on the topic, as if folks did not already have enough to do...

Posted by: JTF at November 18, 2005 12:00 AM

There are some good Frenchmen, among them Jean-Francois Revel:

"The principal function of anti-Americanism has always been, and still is, to discredit liberalism by discrediting its supreme incarnation. To travesty the United States as a repressive, unjust, racist--even fascist--society was a way of proclaiming: Look what happens when liberalism is implemented! And when I described the United States as not only a classical democratic system that worked rather better than any other, but as a society undergoing a revolutionary mutation upsetting its traditional values, ...the message was interpreted as an annoying wake-up call for the elites as they slumbered in their ideological easy chair--including those in the United States, where anti-Americanism continues to flourish in university, journalistic and literary circles."

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3498

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 18, 2005 12:05 AM

Posted in the above article: Founded in 1953 and used by the Shah of Iran to try to eradicate followers of the Bahai faith, the Hojjatieh Society is governed by the conviction that the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by the creation of chaos on earth.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad appears to hastening the creation of choas on earth by stating that Israel should be " wiped off the map." Israel and the west should be very concerned about this fanatical leader of Iran.
Here is a website that I like to visit:
http://www.regimechangeiran.com/

Posted by: Johnathan at November 18, 2005 12:09 AM

Does "esoteric" do this primitive justice? One could imagine titling an article "The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky." But "The Esoteric World of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad" makes him sound too innocuous, or even possibly sweetly eccentric, in the vein of "The World of Henry Orient."

How about "The Crazed World of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad"? Isn't that what it is?

Posted by: Hugh at November 18, 2005 12:56 AM

Touché Hugh.

Esoteric was used to describe the secret Hojjatieh Society of which Ahmadinejad may belong.

It is exceedingly apparent (loyal followers excluded) to observers of Mr. Ahmadinejad that his actions and beliefs are anything but mysterious.

I will agree with you that the Iranian president's world is indeed madness, but would an alternate title of "The Familiar Absurdity of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's World" have the same draw?

I'm not so sure.

Regards,

Eric

Posted by: Eschwapp at November 18, 2005 1:23 AM

Yeah, not ALL french people are bad. I happen to know a french catholic who expatriated to America, and he can't stand frace. But instead of "esoteric", how about delusional? Not fancy, just right to the point.

Posted by: pastor_matt023 at November 18, 2005 1:30 AM

Hugh and pastor_matt023,

Point taken.

The word esoteric doesn't necessarily imply innocuous. Indeed, in Mr. Ahmadinejad's case it could and does denote something diabolical.

I'm still learning and I hope that my amateurish gaffes won't be judged too harshly.

Posted by: Eschwapp at November 18, 2005 1:45 AM

Apocalyptic eschatology is not some dusty subcategory in Islam; it is the central dynamo of everything Muslims do for Islam.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 18, 2005 2:02 AM

Dr. Pepper,

No it is not, but the following is an indication that some subjects in the Iranian regime view this "dusty subcategory" as esoteric:

But what really has tongues wagging is the possibility that Ahmadinejad's belief in the 12th Imam's return may be linked to the supposed growing influence of a secretive society devoted to the Mahdi which was banned in the early 1980s.

Posted by: Eschwapp at November 18, 2005 2:28 AM

Moderationist...I have no argument with what you mean, but love cant win out over murder.
Thats because love and attack cant exist in the same time space at the same time, so one cant win over the other. If you have love you dont have murder, so there is nothing to 'win'. If you have murder, there is no love, so no love is 'lost'. You cant lose what you never had. This is the state of muslims. It is easy for jihadist/terrorists to murder infidels because they dont consider it murder, they consider it a priviledge granted by Allah. Those who want to murder you do not love you. And, they are not going to love you, which is why love cant win over their jihadic versions of murder. In order to win, love has to be found by these people and thats not likely to happen. They simply do not exist in the same time space as love, and know little or nothing about it. Islam is not the religion of love, it is the religion of submission which is the opposite of love. Love never binds, love does not kill to save anything.
Islam binds and kills to save itself. Jihad is one of the pillars of Islam, so says Imam Bukhari. Without it Islam would crumble and die.
So jihad is not something waged now and then, when attacked or threatened, it is a continuous, loveless, state of war, and has been since its inception...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 18, 2005 4:20 AM

Dr. Pepper/sonofwalker: In a lot of ways Bush *is* scary as much as a lot of these muslims. He clearly has been putting his Christianity in a place that is supposed to be secular.
Also do not forget that as a 'born-again Christian' he is inherently as scary as our western people converting to islam.

Or are we going to close our eyes to the fact that abortion clinics, doctors, and such get threatened with death (and actually also get targetted for real)? Or that his father has been known to publically call non-religious people (and that involves a lot of atheists, buddhists, and the like) are non-citizens?

Be critical, but also be honest to look at all sides.

Posted by: asmodai at November 18, 2005 5:09 AM

Dr. Pepper / pastor_matt023: And you think having anti-French sentiments will help? Need I remind you of the idiotic French to Freedom conversion whenever a product was normally called French Something?

Wasn't there this lovely saying: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you...

Posted by: asmodai at November 18, 2005 5:17 AM

"Also do not forget that as a 'born-again Christian' he is inherently as scary as our western people converting to islam.

[...]

Posted by: asmodai [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 18, 2005 05:09 AM

asmodai:

I'm a secular Jew who has little use for organized religion or fanaticism of any sort, but when you attempt to plaint Bush's Christianity, in which he found some strength to give up drugs, with mullahs in prisons converting convicts or moonbats taking up Islam because of the cache of the exotic you show yourself to be a really dumb moral equivalencer.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at November 18, 2005 6:26 AM

Whether Iran's or Saudi Arabia's support for Islamic terror is based on temporal goals such as the spreading of their power and influence, or for some esoteric "spiritual" goals (I have such difficulty equating the pederasty and filth of the Koran with anything spiritual...) is immaterial...

What matters most is the ample evidence that one of Islam's methods of spreading and promulgating is the exploitation of ignorance and chaos to further its domains... Clearly where ignorance is greatest, Islam has flourished...

Posted by: jsla at November 18, 2005 12:30 PM

Eschwapp,

I'd say that the secretive society itself was "dusty" (Islamic history is filled with thousands of cabals and secret societies), not the literalist belief in the Shiite version of the end times.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 18, 2005 1:34 PM

My Moonbat Brother(TM) is one of those who sincerely believe that Bush, the Bush Supreme Court, Fallwell, the Patriot Act and all the rest are greater threats than anything al-Qaeda could concoct. He's not worried about suitcase bombs or chemical attacks - what keeps him awake at night is the fear of being hauled off to Gitmo for his "beliefs."

As for the Iranian president, many of you may not know it but the entire genesis and arc of the Nazi movement was deeply entangled with occultism and "esoteric" beliefs. I made a study of that once... such people are never to be taken lightly.

Posted by: Cato the Elder at November 18, 2005 5:28 PM

Moderationist: "My point being that, until the muslims forgive, forget and love Israel, they will never have a successful society. Ever.'

I agree, but they never will and they never will.

Muslims will never love pigs and apes, no matter what.

Posted by: duh_swami at November 18, 2005 11:56 PM

Israel is a psychological proxy for theird devout myth worshiping. How is it that the pigs and monkeys again and again, against 10-1 manpower and more sometimes, always won. How is it that the lowly Jews have a GDP on par with the US? When we Arabs sit in misery? Surely it cannot be our own religion(that we love), our culture . . . it must be the international conspiracy of the Jews and their Crusader pals. For to even contemplate for a single moment that something else is rotten in Damescus, forces the arabs to look in the mirror. Self gazing can be quite painful as well know. It is so much easier to blame the other guy isn't it. I agree with the anti-semites that Israel enrages the arabs. Not Israeli actions, but her existance. So would a Kurdistani enclave smack dab in Northern Iraq. Really, I had a good laugh when the Jordanians had the ugly miss Islamist would-be suicide bomber on TV . . . exactly at the time that the rumors that the Israelis did the hotel bombing. Secure the oil fields if needed, prop up whatever strong men we find, help our allies in Israel and Kurdistan, spy on them from bases in Kurdistan, and let the religion of peace implode.

Posted by: biorabbi at November 19, 2005 4:58 AM

BioRabbi,
You write that the Arabs are sitting in their "misery." Well, that misery ain't necessarily poverty. I just spent time this morning in one of our Jerusalem shopping malls. About half the customers were Arabs, mostly women to be sure, happily spending money, buying clothes, sitting at cafes, etc. Plenty of Arabs have plenty of money. How many of the Persian Gulf sheikdoms have a higher per capita GNP than the USA and the EU countries? How about Abu Dhabi, maybe, or Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar? If their GNP isn't higher than that of the US, then it's close. Saudi Arabia likewise. Of course, they really don't produce much on their own. They're mainly parasitic, just sitting on that oil and natural gas. I can't think of an Arab country that produces an industrial product. Iraq used to export dates and Egypt used to export good cigarets, if a cigaret can be called good. But here is a paradox: They are so often rich without producing anything. Egypt can't feed itself. How many Arab countries can feed themselves? But many Arabs have plenty of money, although the pro-Arab media like to drag out the poor denizens of a refugee settlement in order to cast moralistic sanctimonious aspersions on Israel.

Posted by: Eliyahu at November 20, 2005 5:59 AM

BioRabbi,
You write that the Arabs are sitting in their "misery." Well, that misery ain't necessarily poverty. I just spent time this morning in one of our Jerusalem shopping malls. About half the customers were Arabs, mostly women to be sure, happily spending money, buying clothes, sitting at cafes, etc. Plenty of Arabs have plenty of money. How many of the Persian Gulf sheikdoms have a higher per capita GNP than the USA and the EU countries? How about Abu Dhabi, maybe, or Dubai, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar? If their GNP isn't higher than that of the US, then it's close. Saudi Arabia likewise. Of course, they really don't produce much on their own. They're mainly parasitic, just sitting on that oil and natural gas. I can't think of an Arab country that produces an industrial product. Iraq used to export dates and Egypt used to export good cigarets, if a cigaret can be called good. But here is a paradox: They are so often rich without producing anything. Egypt can't feed itself. How many Arab countries can feed themselves? But many Arabs have plenty of money, although the pro-Arab media like to drag out the poor denizens of a refugee settlement in order to cast aspersions on Israel.

Posted by: Eliyahu at November 20, 2005 6:02 AM