So when are the Muslims going to clearly declare that Islam has NOTHING to do with violence?

Never, because they would have to edit much of the Coran and Hadith. Their prophet was no peaceful saint. Anyone bothering to study islam can see that.

They just keep lying their head off so that we keep being "tolerant" until the terrorists do us real harm and we are weakened further.

Never in history have there been such crooks: Other villains in history were at least sincere enough to put up with the villain label.

Now these promoters of Holy war are telling us that we have to believe them when they tell us that a spade should not be called a spade.

Posted by: rocky at November 27, 2005 7:54 AM

first thing we need to work on with "these people" is the definition of the word 'civilization'.

i don't think what they have qualifies....

Posted by: theygottago at November 27, 2005 7:56 AM

Muhammad was the first Islamic terrorist. He advocated terror as a short cut to victory. By torturing captives and barbaric blood letting Muhammad said a war could be shortened. The enemy would submit, would surrender rather than chance a very painful death. 

Thusly fewer of Muhammad's army would be wounded or killed in battle

______________________

Groups such as Abu Mus‘ab al-Zarqawi's Al-Tawhid wa al-Jihad (Unity and Jihad) and Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Hasan bin Mahmud's Ansar al-Sunna (Defenders of [Prophetic] Tradition)[10] justify the decapitation of prisoners with Qur'anic scripture. Sura (chapter) 47 contains the ayah (verse): "When you encounter the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads until you have crushed them completely; then bind the prisoners tightly."[11] The Qur'anic Arabic terms are generally straightforward: kafaru means "those who blaspheme/are irreligious," although Darb ar-riqab is less clear. Darb can mean "striking or hitting" while ar-riqab translates to "necks, slaves, persons." With little variation, scholars have translated the verse as, "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks."[12]

For centuries, leading Islamic scholars have interpreted this verse literally. The famous Iranian historian and Qur'an commentator Muhammad b. Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923 C.E.) wrote that "striking at the necks" is simply God's sanction of ferocious opposition to non-Muslims.[13] Mahmud b. Umar az-Zamakhshari (d. 1143 C.E.), in a major commentary studied for centuries by Sunni religious scholars, suggested that any prescription to "strike at the necks" commands to avoid striking elsewhere so as to confirm death and not simply wound.[14]

Many recent interpretations remain consistent with those of a millennium ago. In his Saudi-distributed translation of the Qur'an, ‘Abdullah Yusuf ‘Ali (d. 1953) wrote that the injunction to "smite at their necks," should be taken both literally and figuratively. "You cannot wage war with kid gloves," Yusuf ‘Ali argued.[15] Muhammad Muhammad Khatib, in a modern Sunni commentary bearing the imprimatur of Al-Azhar university in Cairo, says that while traditionalist Muslims tend to see this passage as only applying to the Prophet's time, Shi‘ites "think it is a universal precept."[16] Ironically, then in this view, Zarqawi has adopted the exegesis of his religious nemeses. Perhaps the most influential modern recapitulation of this passage was provided by the influential Pakistani scholar and leading Islamist thinker S. Abul A' la Mawdudi (d. 1979), who argued that the sura provided the first Qur'anic prescriptions on the laws of war. Mawdudi argued

Under no circumstances should the Muslim lose sight of this aim and start taking the enemy soldiers as captives. Captives should be taken after the enemy has been completely crushed.[17]

Accordingly, for soldiers of Islam, victory should be the only consideration. Status of prisoners of war was open to interpretation. Mawdudi maintained that the verse did not clearly forbid execution of prisoners but that "the Holy Prophet understood this intention of Allah's command, and that if there was a special reason for which the ruler of an Islamic government regarded it as necessary to kill a particular prisoner (or prisoners), he could do so."[18] As do many Islamists, Mawdudi cited historical examples of the Prophet Muhammad ordering the execution of prisoners, such as some Meccans captured at the Battle of Badr in 624 C.E. and at least one Meccan seized at the Battle of Uhud in the following year. While such examples do not directly address decapitation, they do allow for murder of prisoners-of-war. Mawdudi's interpretation, though, does not sanction the execution of hostages. Only the government, and not individual Muslim soldiers, could determine the fate of captives.[19]

Posted by: dennisw at November 27, 2005 8:02 AM

Dear Dr. Faisal, in the present age of internet everybody, except you and your ummah,knows very well about true islam which is a cult of hatred and violence.You are trying deception,eternal to islam. Alas! this decption does not work with present day kafirs. You are deceieving your own ummah that your's islamic deception is working well with kafirs. Bleak future is awaiting for people like you.

Posted by: iqbal at November 27, 2005 8:11 AM

Islam, "religion of peace" has divided world into -Darul harab and Darul islam, Kafirs are not dividing further,instead of they are trying to unite Darul harab. Dr. Faisal you are trembling with the thought of this union and not of so called division of civilizations.

Posted by: iqbal at November 27, 2005 8:26 AM

We are to ignore over a hundred passages in the Qur'an, includng all of Sura 9. We are to ignore many hundreds of Hadith, as collected and winnowed and judged to be the most "authentic" by al-Bukhari and Muslim. We are to ignore all the events in Muhammad's life that preach hatred and violence, looting and killing and seizure and enslavement of Infidels, and violence as well against all those who dared to cross or mock or behave in an insufficiently submissive way to Muhammad.

We are to ignore reality. Infidels everywhere must not dare to read Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira ---or rather, they may read the Qur'an, but without comprehension, without any glosses, without any understanding of abrogation, without being able to figure out that the half-dozen phrases that sound nice ("There shall be no compulsion in religion") on first reading may either have been abrogated (and will those organizations now mailing out free Qur'ans be sure to include a little sheet explaining "naskh" or abrogation to their innocent audiences?), or mean, to Muslims, something quite different from what we may take it to mean (simply ask yourself: does the inferior status, the at times unendurable status, of being a non-Muslim in a Muslim-ruled land itself not constitute "compulsion" which, over time, lead those attempting to shed that status to become Muslims? And isn't that dhimmi status quite enough "compulsion" even without going into the real meaning of the phrase?)

No, on the Internet, the full texts of Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira are a click away. Intelligent discussion -- as at www.answering-islam.org -- is avaialble. Scholarly articles are available at www.dhimmitude.org. A host of websites run by ex-Muslims, the surest and most relentless guides to what Islam is all about -- can be found at www.secularislam.org and www.faithfreedom.org. They vary in tone; they vary in the level of the quality of the prose, depending on the individual author. But they all provide so much information that, at the moment, the only problem is in acquiring the funds to hire translators to make available in the world's major languages the contents which are mostly, in English. There is also, of course, this site, which attempts to gather information about the Jihad -- a world-wide phenomenon -- and about the status of non-Muslims both under Muslim rule, and even in the Infidel world, where, as if in some kind of foretaste of what might come, some Infidels have decided, even where there is no need, and where such behavior merely helps promote the Jihad which they fear, to behave, voluntarily, as they would be forced to behave under Muslim rule.

It is too late to insist that we all participate in denying what is staring us in the face. Keep up those "dialogue-of-civilization" meetings all you want. Invite and fool all those willing to be fooled. But in the end, it is the perceived behavior of Muslims, whether in London or Madrid or Amsterdam or Falls Church, Virginia, whether in Basra or Baghdad or Riyadh or Jiddah or for that matter Bahrain and Algiers and Karachi and Islamabad and the Moluccas and southern Thailand and the Sudan, that will determine, along with those canonical texts, and those studies of Islam by Western scholars which the careful myrmidons of MESA Nostra have tried so desperately to keep their students from learning about, much less reading (usually by not mentiong at all, or if mentioning, to proleptically dismiss as "classic examples of 'Orientalism'" so that those dutiful students will simply abide by the judgment of assorted Rashids and Hamids and Khaleds and Omids, and never trouble themselves to actually read Snouck Hurgronje, Joseph Schacht, Arthur Jeffery, Richard Gottheil, David Margoliouth, Clement Huart, Edmnond Fagnan, W. St. Clair Tisdal, and a hundred others, whose knowledge of Islam and of Muslim history far exceeded anything possessed by the run-of-the-mill academics today.

Still, to judge by certain hints and glints, there are those even in the bosom of MESA Nostra who, for professional reasons, may have to be members but are not idiots, not happy with the Coles and Khalidis and Andersons and the others who have come to dominate and twist that organization. These, quietly working in their own fields, are beginning to figure out -- a little late, some of them embarrassedly confess -- what Islam is all about. And they have been helped by all sorts of things, including those websites listed above -- and even this one.

Time marches on, goes the old newsreel. And information, that famous information highway -- well, some may still have their thumb out, homo-pollex style, hitchhikers on that highway. But many others have been picked up, or are now in their own cars, and are roaring along, and cannot, despite the best efforts of assorted and essentially interchangeable Fasal al Mousawis in Bahrain and elsewhere, be flagged and pulled over.

Too late.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 8:34 AM

would deepen the abyss between civilisations

Posted by: Beagle at November 27, 2005 9:00 AM

I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who want nothing to do with jihad - and look forward to peaceful coexistence with the West. However, just by virtue of being Muslim, they feel they are justified in tacitly supporting jihad.

Muslims know they have spread their religion by the sword - and if it is the word and will of Allah - there is really no problem with it. This "rejection of violence" is all just a lot of public relations.

Posted by: rafael699 at November 27, 2005 9:00 AM

Divide civilizations? Or save civilizations?

Posted by: DCWatson at November 27, 2005 9:10 AM

"We need to highlight that terrorism is not linked to religion and must not be associated with any particular civilisation, culture or traditions,"...
-- from the crazed address of "Dr." Faisal al Musawi

Highlight away.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 9:11 AM

So when are they actually going to start denouncing terrorism itself? They won't, because it's all a ploy to try to trick non muslims and the west into believing they are peaceful and tolerant. It will help when they come to try to take over.

Posted by: pastor_matt023 at November 27, 2005 9:36 AM

Shocked, shocked one must be to have someone suggest that Islam and terrorism are associated, or that one emanates from the other.

Is Bahrain also challenging us that we must be quiet and not state the obvious or we will be threatened with a civilizational threat from the Muslim world ?

This is a subtheme heard almost daily from the apologists and the dissemblers for Islam, whether it be CAIR or the imams or spokesmen in the West(like Sir Iqbal Socranie).

So many victims of terror, whether it be individuals killed by decapitation of otherwise, or many killed by Muslim bombs, cry up to offer with their lives proof that Islam is synonymous with terrorism.

Posted by: dgene at November 27, 2005 9:40 AM

Bahrain is heavily Shi'a -- with many in the local population of Persian descent. Shi'a, and dependent on Sunnis from Saudi Arabia for business. Shi'a, and no doubt worried about what might happen if a real Sunni-Shi'a conflict in Iraq breaks out after the Americans leave, and both sides proceed to deal with each other as they do not dare to do so as long as those Americans are there to inhibit them. Shi'a, and wondering possibly what the effect on Bahrain would be if, as a consequence of the Sunni-Shi'a fight within Iraq, the Saudis attempt to pre-empt any problem in the oilfields of eastern Saudi Arabia, where all of that country's Shi'a live, by moving them out en masse. Shi'a, that is, who may suffer, if the Americans leave Iraq not as a wonderful shining light -- held together by the very different continued sacrifices of American soldiers and American taxpayers -- but as -- well, as what it is.

The Shi'a of Bahrain will be able no matter what happens to them, keep on reciting the immortal words of Dr. Faisal al Musawi: Islam and terrorism have nothing to do with each other.

That should console them.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 10:08 AM

I just finished reading an article done by our friends at Newsweek about how the poor Muslims in France were "couped up" and made to feel like "second class citizens."

When one refuses to integrate into a host society and culture which is not similar to their own, and expects the host society to change in order to become similar to it, who truly has the mental malfunction?

The article was nauseating at best. It asked the question: Why are Muslims so angry?

If that's not an open ended question, I don't know what is.......Let's see, why ARE Muslims so angry? Anyone care to elaborate?

Posted by: DCWatson at November 27, 2005 10:15 AM

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

All these are the beginning of birth pains.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

THE ABOVE IS PART OF CHAPTER 24 IN THE BOOK OF MATTHEW AND WAS WRITTEN ALMOST 2000 YEARS AGO. IT IS COMFORTING FOR ME TO KNOW THAT GOD'S WORD, THE HOLY BIBLE, WAS COMPLETED A LONG TIME BEFORE THAT EVIL HERETIC, MUHAMMED, INVENTED, WITH THE HELP OF SATAN, THE NEW "RELIGION" OF ISLAM.

BUT, IT DEEPLY SADDENS ME THAT MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS HAVE BEEN CONSEQUENTLY DECEIVED, AND ARE STILL BEING MISLEAD TO THIS DAY BY THEIR OWN DOCTRINE, WHICH UNBEKNOWN TO THEM IS FALSE. THE HARDER YOU TRY TO SHOW THEM THAT ISLAM IS NOT THE WAY TO ETERNAL LIFE WITH GOD, THE MORE THEY WILL RESIST YOU AND THE LESS LIKELY THEY ARE TO LISTEN TO YOU.

MABY, THIS IS DUE TO THEIR FEAR OF BEING LABELLED AN APOSTATE, OR BECAUSE OF ONE OF THEIR OTHER FEARS. I HAVE THE FEELING THAT ISLAM USES FEAR AS A EFFECTIVE TOOL TO CONTROL MUSLIMS, AND THAT MUSLIMS USE FEAR TO CONTROL ONE ANOTHER EG MUSLIM HUSBANDS DOMINANTING OVER THEIR WIVES.

ITS A CATCH TWENTY TWO SITUATION. I FEEL LIKE I NEED TO REACH OUT TO THEM TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD, BUT I FEEL LIKE THE HARDER I AM GOING TO TRY THE LESS EFFECTIVE I WILL BE.

ANYWAYS, LET ME STOP THERE BEFORE I GO OFF ON A TANGENT. THE PIECE FROM THE BIBLE AT THE TOP HAS SOME THINGS THAT NEED TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT. IT'S INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT A LOT OF THESE ARE OCCURING AT A SEEMINGLY HIGHER RATE NOWADAYS EG ALL THE EARTHQUAKES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, AND WARS ETC...

I HOPE ALL OF YOU, POSTERS, READERS AND UPKEEPERS OF JW/DW HAVE A FANTASTIC DECEMBER/YEAR-END! CIAO!!!

Posted by: DiscipleofJesusChrist at November 27, 2005 10:23 AM

Theygottago:

Interesting point you've raised here! If what we mean by 'civilization' is an advanced state of social development, then whether what they have achieved is 'civilized' is questionable indeed. If, however, what we mean by 'civilization' is the 'culture and ways of a people or nation', then I guess they do qualify.

We in the West are inclined to use the concept of civilization in the former rather than in the latter context. So I think you are right in your assessment: We need to define our terms!

Posted by: Mark Alexander at November 27, 2005 10:37 AM

How can you denounce what is so self evident in fact?

>The train left the station a long long time ago; where where you Mr.Al-Mousawi? Did you fail to read your complete itinerary(Quran)and thus you missed the train? Because you failed to do that,only the dhimmis, and appeasers among us will listen, and watch your song, and dance routine which has become quite the old jig by now having been seen, and heard way to many times by those of us who pay attention. And why do we pay attention and seek out the truth and the knowledge of what was on that train so long ago? Because we care about our civilization,we care about our freedoms, we care about our foundations,and we clearly see the differences between them. And we are not about to let you deceive us from those truths that are so self evident and clear around this planet. We recently saw what happened in Beslan,we saw what happened in Spain,Jordan,Britain,New York,Darfur,the Sudan,Western Mindanao,Indonesia,and did I miss any? Of course I did because there are way to many to count. If fact there are some 8,000 terrorist attacks recorded in the name of Islam in the past 35 years alone.

But we can also review the history of 1,400 years of Jihad that has raged across this planet. Here is a bit of the never ending Ideology of Dar-al-Harb :
The Jihad against Arabs (622 to 634)

The Jihad against Zoroastrian Persians of Iran, Baluchistan and Afghanistan (634 to 651)

The Jihad against the Byzantine Christians (634 to 1453)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Egyptians (640 to 655)

The Jihad against Christian Coptic Nubians - modern Sudanese (650)

The Jihad against pagan Berbers - North Africans (650 to 700)

The Jihad against Spaniards (711 to 730)

The Reconquista against Jihad in Spain (730 to 1492)

The Jihad against Franks - modern French (720 to 732)

The Jihad against Sicilians in Italy (812 to 940)

The Jihad against Chinese (751)

The Jihad against Turks (651 to 751)

The Jihad against Armenians and Georgians (1071 to 1920)

The Crusade against Jihad (1096 – 1291 ongoing)

The Jihad against Mongols (1260 to 1300)

The Jihad against Hindus of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (638 to 1857)

The Jihad against Indonesians and Malays (1450 to 1500)

The Jihad against Poland (1444 to 1699)

The Jihad against Rumania (1350 to 1699)

The Jihad against Russia (1500 to 1853)

The Jihad against Bulgaria (1350 to 1843)

The Jihad against Serbs, Croats and Albanians (1334 to 1920)

The Jihad against Greeks (1450 to 1853)

The Jihad against Albania (1332 - 1853)

The Jihad against Croatia (1389 to 1843)

The Jihad against Hungarians (1500 to 1683)

The Jihad against Austrians (1683)

Jihad in the Modern Age (20th and 21st Centuries)

The Jihad against Israelis (1948 – 2004 ongoing)

The Jihad against Americans (9/11/2001)

The Jihad against the British (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Germans (1945 onwards)

The Jihad against the Indians (1947 onwards)

The Jihad against the Filipinos in Mindanao(1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Indonesian Christians in Malaku and East Timor (1970 onwards)

The Jihad against Russians (1995 onwards)

The Jihad against Dutch and Belgians (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Norwegians and Swedes (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Thais (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Nigerians (1965 onwards)

The Jihad against Canadians (2001 onwards)

The Jihad against Latin America (2003 onwards)

The Jihad against Australia (2002 onwards)

ANY QUESTIONS MR.AL MOUSAWI? --SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU FAIL TO READ YOUR ITINERARY>>>YOU MISS THE TRAIN. --YEAH SURE!

Posted by: Mackie at November 27, 2005 11:03 AM

Disciple of JesusChrist , your words are very true. These are the last days predicted in the Holy Bible. By the way, Mohamed accused that the Bible (Injeel) has been corrupted and changed by christians,and Jesus is only a ordinary prophet,inferior to Mohammed! This,he has done,just to deviate the christians of his time,and bring them to his fold. Christians are not such a fools like him to believe when he says the bible is corrupted. Mohamed came into the world 600 years after Jesus,and accuses of the bible corruption! The early christians were so zealous of their bible,everyone of them byhearted the verses,and were prepared to die for their religion. Most of them were literates and if any one dares to change the God's word,they will be the first one to point out the real god's word,and nail the culprit. Mohamed wanted to bring out a 'holy book' equal to "holy Bible' but could not make one even .001 percent near to the bible. So he devised a plan of telling the illiterate mobs of Arabia that Allah dictated the Koran to him and it is not his words.He also put down the "holy Bible' by saying God tells "this is not the original injeel I have sent,and christians have changed it."! Thus,accoriding to Mohamed,Jesus never died on the cross,never rose again from his death,and above all,he is not the Son of God,but a mere prophet,that too inferior to mehmod!. One can see the hatred for the Cross in islamic countries. Even the Red cross sign is looked down with contempt,and they substitute it witha "crescent" of the moon god.!

Posted by: rafia at November 27, 2005 11:15 AM

I don't know why some people are so shocked by this. Our news media has been telling us lies and/or half truths for years. Remember Tom Brokaw exclaiming on the nightly news, "All the news we think you need to know." No, that's okay Tom, give me all the news and I'll decide for myself. But then anyone searching for truth eventually realizes we will not get it through the regular news channels. And why is that?

What about communistic disinformation and propaganda? We've seen this before, folks, certain groups, getting together and deciding what will need to be said to further whatever their particular goal is. We need to repeat over and over and over again, the truth, and never tire of repeating it. Positive affirmations. If we do it together we can drowned out the most noxious of Islamic hate spewers.

Islam is not a family value.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 27, 2005 11:20 AM

These are the last days predicted in the Holy Bible.

"The end" doesn't mean there won't be some new beginning. Western Judeo-Christian civilization may, or may not be, a part of it.

Posted by: Beagle at November 27, 2005 11:21 AM

Earthquake in big-mouth's Iran.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10222850/

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 27, 2005 11:26 AM

mackie- my hats off to you buddy! Islamists like Al Mousavi cannot fool the intelligent western world by his false statements,just like he and his clans are fooling aroung the one billion illiterate,revengeful muslims. Thanks for your effort.

Posted by: rafia at November 27, 2005 11:27 AM

Miss Carolyn,

Did that happen because of, or in spite of, Islam?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 27, 2005 11:28 AM

I tried to find a model of pithy prose that might satisfy you. Here's an example of prose at its pithiest:

"If jihad is the pinnacle of islam, then islam is the pinnacle of a dog-turd."

Posted by: el greco"

Similar offerings, by someone who has the gall to use your very own posting name, are also easily retrieved.

Would that kind of thing meet your exacting standards?

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 11:38 AM

Knowledge of one's history is the best antidote from the cult of islam! any one foolish enough to think ignoring this will save them, will be the first to go! offense is the best way to destroy these monsters! Peace through Victory!!!

Posted by: Lulu at November 27, 2005 11:38 AM

Would that kind of thing meet your exacting standards?

Posted by: Hugh
Thanks for the laugh, Hugh. LOL

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 27, 2005 11:59 AM

OT,
This cartoon is relevant to our struggle against islamic imperialism.
http://www.attackcartoons.com/article.php?story=butisitart#comments

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 27, 2005 12:28 PM

Heh, heh, this one too...
http://www.attackcartoons.com/article.php?story=newjihadcity#comments

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 27, 2005 12:30 PM

Ahh, to be young, in love and gay in Dubai.

Gay Newlyweds Face Penalties in Emirates

More than two dozen gay Arab men — arrested at what police called a mass homosexual wedding — could face government-ordered hormone treatments, five years in jail and a lashing, authorities said Saturday.

The Interior Ministry said police raided a hotel chalet earlier this month and arrested 22 men from the Emirates as they celebrated the wedding ceremony, one of a string of recent group arrests of homosexuals here.

The men are likely to be tried under Muslim law on charges related to adultery and prostitution, said Interior Ministry spokesman Issam Azouri.

Posted by: Lisa at November 27, 2005 1:29 PM

The End Times are nigh!!!

Every generation of Christians, from the 12 (make that 11) disciples to today, have fantasized about the end being near.

If there is a Nuke war, it will be because religious idiots started it, not because "god" or "satan" started it.

If the bible thumpers and Queeran thumpers REALLY thought that the end was near, they'd quit work, take their kids out of school, and stay home praying. They'd liquidate their stocks, empty their bank accounts, cancel their life insurance, and do something with their money that Jesus would do: give it to charity. Especially since Jesus said that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to gain entry to heaven.

**********************************************

Carolyn points out: Earthquake in big-mouth's Iran.

Yeah, and how much do you want to bet that they will use this a "proof" that Allah wants them to be more religious?

**********************************************

"Clash of civilizations?" Is it is Western versus Muslim "civilization"? The phrase "Muslim Civilization" sounds nice; maybe one day they'll try it.

It is not a clash of civilization; it is civilization versus Islam.

**********************************************

Hugh, maybe el greco would prefer something like the graffiti seen at so many other websites, like LGF, freerepublic, etc.

And remember, to make it really effective, TYPE IN ALL CAPS!!!

Posted by: kj at November 27, 2005 1:30 PM

Perhaps we will stop associating Islam with terror when we start hearing of teachers and Imams being fired for teaching Jihad.

Posted by: Walter E. Wallis at November 27, 2005 1:32 PM

Perhaps we will start associating Islam with terror when we start hearing of teachers being fired for preaching hatred of Western values, and the Roots those values have come from over the last 2000 years.

Posted by: Gary at November 27, 2005 1:36 PM

"Islamists like Al Mousavi cannot fool the intelligent western world by his false statements..."

Unfortunately, Islamists like Al Mousawi can fool the intelligent Western world, and do, all day long. The vast majority of intelligent Westerners are still fooled.

You guys here are a small minority. It will do you no good (other than enthusing you with false hope) to think otherwise. It will do you good to face that awful fact, the better to do something effective about it.

(And if you do face that awful fact, for God's sake don't ascribe silly etiologies to it, like that Saudi oil and Western greed were sufficient to actually cause the modern West to completely reverse its venerable and vetust worldview in the last half century.)

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 27, 2005 1:38 PM

"Linking Islam to terror 'will divide civilisations'"

works for me...

Posted by: Bill_Carson at November 27, 2005 2:27 PM

Neither "Saudi oil and Western greed" nor "leftist views and multiculturalism" are by themselves sufficient to explain the strange behavior of the Western world in failing to study, or understand, or make policies based on a right understanding of, Islam. There are many explanations, mutually reinforcing, or explaining the behavior of enough people, of varying views, but who, in the end, manage to arrive at what is, essentially, the same dangerous (for the rest of us) conclusion: that Islam is not a menace, that the Jihad is not central to Islam, that those Muslims who so act or so claim are a "minority" of "extremists" using a "great religion" for their own illegitimate ends.

Few should 'scape whipping. No one tendency, no one side, deserves to receive it all. Ant-Americanism certainly helps. Antisemitism certainly helps. Belief that all cultures and civilizations must be declared equal, and then that of the West tacitly treated as illegitimate and wicked, certainly helps. The desire to curry favor with those who have hundreds of billions of dollars to spend, and do spend it, eagerly, to buy up supporters, apologists, public relations agents, certainly helps.

To select out one strand, and one strand only, and then to ignore all the others, is do be far too kind to some, far too merciless to others.

How do civilizations fall? They fall when a whole host of things happen at once, and no one can quite see the whole picture, or deal with more than one threat at a time. That's how.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 2:30 PM

Pith on please, Hugh. Always a pleasure.

Posted by: sonofwalker at November 27, 2005 2:46 PM

From post above: "How do civilizations fall? " Indeed -- a quiet apparently nearly imperceptible collapsing is occurring as we read and write these words -- Of course we all fear that it will not really be noticed by the majority until it's far far too late...

How remarkable that the non-Muslim is always blamed for every Muslim transgression... How remarkable that after they victimize us -- after they excoriate us -- after the Muslim expresses his utter and complete hatred for us -- after he prays for our annihilation -- he will proceed to allege that it is through our actions, our criticism, or our hatred of him that he must act with violence and terrorism --

I observe with complete disgust now the fact that while Muslims are allowed freely to travel to or immigrate into Western societies with little or no impedence -- while they are allowed to practice Islam with little interference from Western goverments or Western Societies -- I observe that there is little or no reciprocity among Muslim Nations and Islamic communities for tolerance and forebearance towards Westerners... They are filled with criticism, hatred, and vitriol... NO MATTER WHAT WE DO!

I now view EVERY Muslim who refuses to see or admit the link between the blackened canker of Islam and terrorism as being a grave enemy... No longer do I reserve this distinction for those who openly commit acts of terror, or those who openly support the terrorists. I am now nearly completey convinced that there is no such thing as a "moderate" among Muslims. They are each and every one an enemy of the gravest kind -- one who lurks in our midst - one who may be completely undeterrable -- and one who may win...

Posted by: jsla at November 27, 2005 2:55 PM

"Neither "Saudi oil and Western greed" nor "leftist views and multiculturalism" are by themselves sufficient to explain..."

I never said PC Leftism explains our problem. PC Leftism is a description, a symptom of the problem, not an explanation for why the problem has become dominant.

As Robert Spencer reminds us, if we don't name the problem correctly, we will be less able, or even unable, to begin to solve it.

Before the remedy, one must have a proper diagnosis.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 27, 2005 3:00 PM

"The desire to curry favor with those who have hundreds of billions of dollars to spend, and do spend it, eagerly, to buy up supporters, apologists, public relations agents, certainly helps."

Imagine if some entity with hundreds of billions of dollars was trying to seduce Westerners today to collaborate, even if only indirectly and peripherally, in a project of Aryan supremacy one of whose major tenets was the infection of all blacks with some laboratory disease. This project would be so against the grain of our dominant PC Leftism (one of the few benefits of it, we can always count on it to be hypervigilant against some sinister Aryan Supremacy project that might rear its ugly head) that no amount of hundreds of billions would be sufficient to seduce any but a tiny minority who would have to behave like criminals in hiding.

I.e., we should distinguish among the different factors at play in this overarching problem: the fresh water (Saudi billions) spritzed refreshingly over unwilling concrete -- rather than willing soil (the Leftist PC climate) and seeds (the as-yet unexplained reason(s) for why the West has turned its magnificent ship around) -- would yield no growth of the corrupt luxuriance that currently helps to camouflage the problem.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at November 27, 2005 3:15 PM

Hugh,
It's true the blame can find plenty of homes. My favorite whipping boy is the press. Like it or not, they are the mouthpieces of the so called western world. We rely on them for nearly all our information, and they can't even bring themselves to use the word "terrorist". The incriminating verses in the koran will remain ever secret as long as Joe Sixpack watches the 6 o'clock News and expects to get the whole story on the ME. IMHO, the big 3 networks are waging jihad against the "information age".

Posted by: kevin at November 27, 2005 3:26 PM

"If the bible thumpers and Queeran thumpers REALLY thought that the end was near, they'd quit work, take their kids out of school, and stay home praying. They'd liquidate their stocks, empty their bank accounts, cancel their life insurance, and do something with their money that Jesus would do: give it to charity."

Posted by: kj

well kj, actually, i never said that "The End Times are nigh", because no one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only God. but i am also not stupid and have noticed the increasing frequency of certain world events. right up until the end of the world, it will be as it was in the days of Noah, and so it will be at the second coming of the Son of Man. for in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, right up until the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.

and that kj, is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. two men will be in the field; one of them will be taken and the other left. two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

therefore, kj, keep watch, because you do not know on what day your LORD will come. but, try to understand this: if the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. so kj, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. i tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

but kj, suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'my master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.

he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

Posted by: DiscipleofJesusChrist at November 27, 2005 3:29 PM

Let the division begin. Let's make it permanent.

Posted by: Havoc at November 27, 2005 3:34 PM

I have been practicing immigration law for a number of years, and perhaps 50% of my client base is Muslim. I also grew up primarily in the Middle East as the son of a U.S. diplomat.

Most educated Muslims are warm, engaging, hospitable, and hard working. Many are capable of remarkable acts of kindness.

However, I have never been able to understand how so many otherwise normal people are capable of the massive denial that Islam apparently requires. It is truly stunning, and I am at the point where, as a matter of policy, I have given up discussing religion or theology with these folks.

Islam is much more than a religion, it is an all-encompassing cultural modus vivendi that infects almost all aspects of daily of life of the observant Muslim. That being said, most of my Muslim clients appear to be "bad Muslims" when the dictates of their faith become too inconvenient. Many do not adhere to the five pillars, much less embrace the concept of the lesser jihad. This probably allows many to function without becoming clinically insane.

The interesting question, really, is to what extent the United States can, unlike most of Europe, succeed in assimilating this population, given that Muslim immigration in any appreciable numbers is still, believe it or not, relatively recent in the States. By assimilation, I really mean the second or third generation actually abandoning Islam and appreciating/valuing true freedom and the better aspects of Western culture. Perhaps I'm naive, but I do think this is possible. But it requires careful screening so that only the best educated Muslims (a somewhat oxymoronic proposition, I know) are permitted to immigrate and ultimately naturalize.

I have also concluded that fear may well be the primary factor prohibiting the Muslim from vigorously questioning his faith and denouncing the violence that, without question, inheres in Islam itself. Some of my most satisfying asylum cases are those of Iranian "murtads," who are people who have converted from Islam to another religion, usually Christianity, and would face unthinkable persecution if returned to Iran. The fact that apostasy is an unpardonable sin, equal to treason in many Islamic countries, kind of says it all, I think.

I would love to simply denounce Islam as a death cult, which it sadly appears to be, but 1.2 billion is one hell of a lot of people.

After years of struggling with this question, I still don't have all the answers, but I do enjoy this site, especially the prolific Mr. Fitzgerald.

Posted by: Matt at November 27, 2005 3:51 PM

where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...

What about wailing?

The late Dave Allen's Ian Paisley springs unbidden into my mind.

Posted by: Interested at November 27, 2005 3:54 PM

Matt --

1. Unfortunately, too many Muslims, for recents Pentagon-paid psychiatrists and psychologists must look into, cannot overcome filial or civilizational piety, and as ex-Muslims will tell you, if you don't make the final break, there is always the chance of a return to Islam, a vestigial loyalty to Islam becoming far more than a vestige. If I were you, I would try to help only the certified apostates and not convince myself that it was okay to help "kind, nice, gentle" Muslims remain in this country.

2. You might want to read -- it is now apparently on-line, Andre Servier's "The Psychology of the Musulman." Google around. And then there is Patai's "The Arab Mind" which is far too delicate, and not focussed enough on Islam, but still has good points.

3. If you go to www.faithfreedom.org, the indefatigable Ali Sina debates all the time with various Muslims. He often offers some view into the problem of "this is your mind....this is your mind on Islam."

Undoubtedly a fascinating subject. As is the ability of the entire Infidel world, or much of it, not to see, not to care, not to study, not to beware, not to be frightened, not to make plans, not to discuss, not to -- not to do what it takes to make its own future something rather than nothing, and certainly not, as a large Muslim presence will certainly make it, ever more unpleasant, more expensive, and more physically dangerous.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 4:15 PM

The Islamic world is mired in barbarism, and is
not a "civilization" as I'd use the word. In
any case, Gulf News is like a mohammadan Pravda.
Good to know what our enemies are up to, but
it's taquiya central.

Hugh, keep on keepin' on. You write well, and the
fact that a small mind doesn't have the patience to read is no reason that adults should be denied the pleasures of your musings. I don't write as well as Hugh, nor do I improvise as well as Charlie Parker, but that doesn't stop me from
enjoying both artists.

Posted by: American at November 27, 2005 4:34 PM

Matt,

Your words trully resonated with my own thoughts and conclusions. In your law practice, you have come across the educated Muslim as just plain decent folk. Every human being is born into this world as just plain decent folk. It is only the attitudes we acquire from society that determine our later biases.

Prevailing societal negative attitudes, the theory goes, can be overcome in succeding generations by better education. The better edcuated, those with a greater capacity for reason and logic, can more easily dismiss arbitrary prejudices and more readily overcome fear of the other.

Readily available statistics show that the Islamic world has the lowest literacy rate. The In some areas the literacy rate may be as low as 25-33% of the adult population. With such a low literacy rate, the majority of the population can barely think for themselves since they are at the mercy of those who deliver information to them orally, usually the local iman.

Now being told that this book is the divine word of allah and anybody who disagrees shall be put to death instills fear. Couple this ignorance with hatred espoused in this book for Jews, Christians and all others lumped together as polytheists, idol worshippers, infidels and unbelievers, yet more fear is instilled.

Islam also lacks any kind of command structure. In effect, all Muslims instilled with this fear and the unalterable word of allah may readily assume the role of allah's private cop, attorney general, judge and executioner. This is the one crucial difference between Judeo-Christina law and Islamic law. Mosaic law specified that the law was not to be taken into one's own hand, but established the concept of the secular law giver and enforcer. Islamist believe enforcement of superhuman law belongs in the hands of the human, and any Islamist may enforce such law (institutionalized anarchy). With such anarchy, fear becomes authority.

Fear is what holds the Islamic system together. In the last few weeks I engaged in multiple debates with our resident da'wa expert, who does not take a confrontational tone, but tries to, with multiple cut an past from the Hadith, convince us that more Islam is the answer to the problem presented in the topic. Rarely did this poster ever offer any original thought, reason, logic or analysis. During one such debate, I posted that every point made by this person in favor of Islam was based on, you guessed it, fear.

To compel adherence to Islamic law, fear of the coreligionist is the motivating factor. To compel adherence to Jewish or Christian law, reliance on intellect, logic and reason to distinguish right from wrong is the motivation. If you are Jewish and refrain from pork or if you are Mormon and refrain form alcohol because of your religious conviction, breaking of this law and its consequences is between you and your creator. It is the creator's law, not man's law, and he will prosecute the offense and determine your punishment. In Islam, the coreligionist assumes this role from allah to the extent in the extreme the coreligionist takes all actions necessary even to prevent you from the ability to make a moral judgement.

Posted by: Lisa at November 27, 2005 4:39 PM

"How do civilizations fall? They fall when a whole host of things happen at once, and no one can quite see the whole picture, or deal with more than one threat at a time. That's how."

What we are witnessing is the fall of the Islamist civilization.

If you want to predict the future, you cannot do so using micro-trends or micro-events, but you can do so to a certain extent using marco-trends or marco-events, another word for macro-trends is demographics.

I won't post all the mind numbing details here, the data is freely available all over the net. But, here are the trends that are important in the Islamic world:
1. Population rate is high and going higher.
2. Literacy rate is very low and going lower.
3. Health care is pretty much nonexistent if you are not rich.
4. Education for most people consists of memorizing religious dogma.
5. GDP, if you take oil out of the equation, of the entire Islamic world is a little less than the GDP of Spain.
6. Food production cannot begin to keep up with the population increase.
7. In every area of the world where Islamists are side by side with non-Islamists, the Islamists are at war with their neighbors, either an overt war or a covert "guerilla" war.
8. A large portion of the income of the Islamic world comes from funds sent home by workers who are working in the non-Islamic world.

So, an unmistakable trend: more people who are less and less educated with fewer and fewer resources to take care of them. The Islamic civilization is collapsing around us. We should give the collapse a push.

If you don't believe the 8 points I mention above, look up the raw statistics yourself, they are available online.

Posted by: steve at November 27, 2005 5:20 PM

"The interesting question, really, is to what extent the United States can, unlike most of Europe, succeed in assimilating this population, given that Muslim immigration in any appreciable numbers is still, believe it or not, relatively recent in the States. By assimilation, I really mean the second or third generation actually abandoning Islam and appreciating/valuing true freedom and the better aspects of Western culture. Perhaps I'm naive, but I do think this is possible. But it requires careful screening so that only the best educated Muslims (a somewhat oxymoronic proposition, I know) are permitted to immigrate and ultimately naturalize."

I have a better idea. The Islamic world declared war on the United States on 9/11. At first I did not believe this to be the case, but I used to have a lot of Muslim/Islamic friends, and on 9/12 I was still in a state of shock and I needed to make some sense out of what happened. So, I started calling my Muslim/Islamic friends (ex-friends now) and asked them a simple question "Why?". EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM said the same thing, that they could 'sympathize' with the suicide bombers. NOT ONE OF THEM expressed revulsion for the act. Well, I no longer have any Muslim/Islamic friends.

I don't buy this nonsense that the "average" Muslim is not to be blamed for the actions of the militants. Their silent complicity is a crime as serious as the crime of the perpetrator. Who is the worse criminal, the arsonist who sets fire to your house? Or, me for watching you burn to death and not lifting a finger to help when it is in my capability to do so?

So, after talking to every Muslim/Islamic person I knew and coming to realize that they were of one mindset about 9/11 I realized that 9/11 was a declaration of war, not by 'extremists' but by all of Islam. If you think I am wrong please show me the vehement denials of the actions of 9/11 by a large enough block of Muslim/Islamic people that it makes a difference. You wont' be able to provide them, because they don't exist. I looked.

Since we are at war with the Muslim/Islamic world we have every right and really the duty to immediately stop ALL immigration from the Muslim/Islamic world and immediately deport all nationals from all Muslim/Islamic countries who do not have full U.S. citizenship.

I think this idea that we should somehow be successful in 'careful screening' is absurd. We are at war, time we started acting like it.

Posted by: steve at November 27, 2005 5:33 PM

The other problem with Matt's theory is that education isn't in-and-of-itself a guarentee against Islamic extremism. If one looks at the professional union guilds in Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries, one can see that they are dominated by fundamentalist Islamist groups. The engineering and medical professions are particularly susceptible to Islamist influence.

So much for "education" being an effective criteria for distinguishing moderates from radical Muslims.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 27, 2005 5:41 PM

The highly educated minority is using knowledge as power over the vast illiterate majority. The educated elite consolidates its power through keeping the masses illiterate and fundamentalist. Having a majority educated populace (truly educated - not just in Islamic studies) would introduce greater range of opinion and debate in society with theoretically a moderation of Islamism.

Posted by: Lisa at November 27, 2005 5:58 PM

"Since we are at war with the Muslim/Islamic world we have every right and really the duty to immediately stop ALL immigration from the Muslim/Islamic world and immediately deport all nationals from all Muslim/Islamic countries who do not have full U.S. citizenship."

Steve, does that include Indonesian Christians, Egyptian Copts, Iranian Bahais, etc.? How about a Muslim U.S. citizen who wants to bring his wife from Pakistan? Do you know that there are more Arab Christians than Muslims in the United States? How do we "immediately deport" hundreds of thousands of people? I am in immigration court almost every week, Steve, and due process is the order of the day.

We can't even control our borders, with literally thousands walking in unhindered on a daily basis, for Christ's sake.

Steve, I probably would agree with much of your viewpoint, but you perhaps commit the error of letting anger control your thought process, and thus recommend utterly unrealistic and simplistic prescriptions. We are all prone to anger, but this war we are in is far more complicated, and a little more nuance may be called for. Certainly, anyone who knows me knows that I am utterly opposed to any kind of appeasement.

We have much more to worry about from the Muslim who engages in Koranic-inspired deception and loudly condemns atrocities such as 9/11 while silently working for the advancement of Islam, than the much more honest Muslim who directly tells you he has "sympathy" for the perpetrators. The individuals at CAIR, for example, are far more worrisome to me than the folks we saw dancing in the streets after 9/11.

And by the way, I live near enough to the Pentagon, that I actually heard the rumble of the plane when it crashed on that awful September morning four years ago, although I didn't know what it was at that moment.

Cheers.

Posted by: Matt at November 27, 2005 6:04 PM

Isabellathecrusader, thank you for your kind wirds in other posts.

/b Linking Islam to Terror will divide civilisations? /b

Interesting point, except that Islam was never a civilisation, instead went around stealing from others and then claiming it to be its own. Case in point, Arab numerals did not come from the Arabs, they possibly introduced it to the West, but Arab Numerals come from India and that in specific from the Hindus. Yes you can thank me later :)

Einstein stated "We owe a lot to the Hindus who gave us Numbers without which no scientific discovery could have been made."

Getting back to the point, instead of dividing civilisations, it will unite them against a savage tribal animalistic mentality which believes in the annihilation of other people, culture and philosophies.

India was a nation which originally comprised of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Burma, Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Aksai-Chin, Maldives Islands etc etc etc and that is not even refering to the cultural Indian (Hindu) Empire which affects most of Asia (Thank you Buddha).

Okay, who destroyed the present Hindu civilizations in sevral regions and seperating from India on the basis of religion? Afghanistan (originally called Ghandhar a Hindu/Buddhist nation at one point) was lost, conquered, lost, conquered until finally it seperated in 1857 when the British were dealing with their power struggle in 1857 India. Pakistan and Bangladesh (formerly East Pakiland) left in 1947, Maldives Islands did a major Jihad in 1921 wiping out its Hindu populations and also creating a seperate nation from the Hindus. Other Nations from India were only seperate due to either political reasons (Burma 1936, thanks to the British trying to deal with India's revolution) or because they were kingdoms who did not wish to lose their status (Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan).

Coming down to my long winded babbling, Islam has always sought to seperate and divide away from other people always. India was carved up on the basis of religion and so every muslim should have left India for their new homeland in Pakiland, and yet more muslims live in India than in Pakiland, so what exactly happened here?

Islam believes it is seperate and cannot assimilate with others. Pakistan itself is evidence of the muslim mind set of the "Two Nation Theory".

However, by exposing Islam for the crimes it has committed against others, holocausts, persecution, the subjugation and exploitation of women, we may be able to stop Islam from destroying others and finally make them apologise for all they did. Islam is a crime against humanity and to defend it or call others an Islamophobe is no better than being a Nazi Holocaust denier.

In fact by exposing this cult for what it is may help bring communities together, what the muslims fear is a multi-front war, because no one ever wins a war with too many foes. Islam has realised that its arrogance may have got the better of it and now too many people are realising what Islam stands for.

Basically, Islam is worried that if they get exposed, then civilisations will unite and stop this barbaric female circumcising cult from taking over the world.

Sorry about babbling for too long, couldn't really focus since I had more to say than what I type.

-Cheers

Ayo Gorkhali (Here come the Gurkhas)

Posted by: Gorkhali at November 27, 2005 6:16 PM

Posted by Matt :

"I am in immigration court almost every week, Steve, and due process is the order of the day."

I fear the world will one day be forced to drop the luxury of due process when dealing with Islam.
All the modern "touchy-feely" stuff might need to go if any sort of effective response is possible.

I can picture it now, various groups arguing about hundreds of human rights issues for suspected terrorists...then a flash brighter than a thousand suns and all those arguing transformed into vapor and ash.

Posted by: Mike_W at November 27, 2005 6:41 PM

To Gorkhali,

You are welcome, dear. It will be a pleasure to stand side by side with you and fight this good fight.

To Matt,

I know it is hard to believe that people with good manners who commit random acts of kindness could have any sinister motives. I've struggled with that one myself. As a Catholic, it's hard for me to make a decision about the destruction of a group of people in the name of self defense. The decision to oppose an entire group and stand firm in that decision cannot be made overnight or taken lightly. But as Robert and Hugh have shown us over and over again with there instructive postings and news links, these are not isolated instances of terror; these are ideologically fueled responses by Moslems to any one who gets in there way or doesn't do what they tell them to do.

Now I have a real problem with this mentality because I have control issues, that is, I will NOT be controlled. I control myself, and I have no desire to control other people so the respect that I give on that front I not only expect in return, but demand. For me, Islam as an ideology or religion that I would be made to follow is out of the question, because Jesus Christ is everything to me and He will ask me to render an accounting when I'm dead. And what am I going to tell Him, "Oh, sorry Lord, but these Moslem guys told me they'd stone me to death if I didn't do it their way. You understand Lord, right?" Please.

No this fight is worth dying for. There was a poster named Bill in another thread last night that talked about what our soldiers are up against and how they know that they CANNOT be captured, no matter what, because if they are they will be used as pawns and beheaded on the Internet. No, they have to fight to the death and if the signs are accurate, we may be called to do that to.

As I contemplate these things that we discuss here I try to come up with answers as to how we can be most effective in combating this threat to our real civilization, no matter how tarnished. Would it be helpful to identify political candidates who are anti-immigration and anti-appeasement and help to strengthen their positions, as well as ours, by working to get them elected? Or are we too far gone in the politcal progress and will have to do our work through grassroots efforts? Wouldn't it be helpful, while we are still relatively free, to have people over for coffee on some Tuesday evening to discuss what we've learned here and spread it? When I was a kid my mom used to host, and also attend other people's rosary groups and many concerns about the church and what was going on in the world were discussed there. Maybe our grassroots efforts start here.

Any opinions?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 27, 2005 7:26 PM

"Jesus Christ is everything to me and He will ask me to render an accounting"

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

You are right in saying that we will be held accountable for our actions, what we say and what we think. Remember to never underestimate the power of prayer. It "says" in in Psalm 94:9 that God hears all and sees all, and in Proverbs 15:3. I will pray to our Lord that he guides you, strengthens you and leads you to great things! Phillipians 4:13

Your brother in Christ!

Posted by: DiscipleofJesusChrist at November 27, 2005 8:27 PM

Thanks, Disciple, my friend,

I could really use your prayers. And I'll pray for you, too. And why don't we ask God to bless all the posters here and give us strength, guidance and wisdom to do the right things. And especially for KJ, because he needs it the most.

Have a good evening.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 27, 2005 8:33 PM

"Steve, I probably would agree with much of your viewpoint, but you perhaps commit the error of letting anger control your thought process, and thus recommend utterly unrealistic and simplistic prescriptions. We are all prone to anger, but this war we are in is far more complicated, and a little more nuance may be called for. Certainly, anyone who knows me knows that I am utterly opposed to any kind of appeasement."

Anger? When I have to stand in line too long at the grocery store I feel anger. When someone cuts me off in traffic I feel anger. When cowardly murderers murder 3,000 of my fellow countryman and then people who are in our country on our good graces say that they 'sympathize' with the murderers, well my feelings over that are not anger, I don't have a word to describe those feelings.

I don't see how admitting that we are at war, and then modifying our laws so that our enemies are not allowed to continue coming here freely is 'simplistic'. I don't think that deporting hundreds of thousands of our enemies would be a simple process. But, I do think it is necessary. What choice do we have? Your argument that we shouldn't do anything because our borders are porous is too defeatist for me.

I think that sorting out who is who among our enemies is too complicated, there should be an immediate ban on immigration to this country from the Islamic world. In the same way that we stopped immigration to this country from the Axis countries on Dec 7.

I see no difference between the attacks of Dec 7 and Sept 11.

Posted by: steve at November 27, 2005 8:45 PM

From chapter 10, The Victory of Christ over Hell, in Mary of Agreda's "The Mystical City of God",

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7194/contents.html

"Wherever idolatry would fail, they (Satan and his demons) concluded to establish sects and heresies, for which they would select the most perverse and depraved of the human race as leaders and teachers of error. Then and there was concocted among these malignant spirits the sect of Mahomet".

Isabellathecrusader, sometimes I wonder if the only hope for mankind lies in that rosary you mentioned...everything else seems to lead to disaster.
Secular humanity seems doomed.

Posted by: Mike_W at November 27, 2005 9:22 PM

Steve, I hear you, but here's the problem:

What countries comprise the "Islamic world?" India, for example, is overwhelmingly Hindu but, due to its enormous overall population, has approximately 150 MILLION Muslims--i.e. more Muslims than most totally Muslim countries. Do we ban all Indian immigration, when common sense and observation tell you that Indian immigrants are some of the best and most loyal among us?

Some other countries with Muslim majorities have a significant non-Muslim population--i.e., Indonesia, a country of 200 million or so, is 10% Christian. Should we deny immigration to all people from Indonesia? How about those who are desperate to get out of Indonesia and away from anti-Christian discrimination? I could give you numerous other examples, but I think my point is clear. The devil is always in the details.

Now, if you alternatively suggest a policy of banning all immigrants or deporting non-citizens already here based on their declaration of being Muslims, you run into other problems. First, how do you know someone is telling the truth? Unlike someone's nationality or race, there is no way to accurately discern whether someone is a Muslim or not, unless he or she volunteers that information.

Second, you would also need to amend our Constitution, and specifically either do away with or change the first amendment, among others, because, even if I totally agreed with your proposition, it would constitute outright discrimination based on religion.

And herein lies the difference between WWII and the present conflict: WWII involved acts of war against us by sovereign states. This war is different because, without question, it involves Islam itself--even if our president and other officials cannot, for obvious political reasons, say this publicly. And Islam is, at least theoretically, a "religion." It may be a despicable religion, but it meets every test of that definition adopted by the Supreme Court, the IRS, etc.

And by the way, there are some Muslims ("bad Muslims" or Muslims for identification purposes only, perhaps) in this country (but not nearly enough of them) who have tried like Trojans to condemn violence and even some central tenets of Islam in no uncertain terms (google, for example, Kamal Nawash). Problem is, they don't get the same press as the weasels at CAIR.

We need much tougher measures, but I simply don't think the country is ready (at least not yet) for the draconian remedy you have set forth. That's all I meant when I suggested that you were not being entirely realistic.

Otherwise, I am sure that I and most people that post here are with you.

Posted by: Matt at November 27, 2005 9:27 PM

Matt,

Korematsu is still good, if not controversial, law.

It should be noted, to begin with, that all legal restrictions which curtail the civil rights of a single racial group are immediately suspect. That is not to say that all such restrictions are unconstitutional. It is to say that courts must subject them to the most rigid scrutiny. Pressing public necessity may sometimes justify the existence of such restrictions; racial antagonism never can.

Religion and race are both protected classes.

Posted by: Lisa at November 27, 2005 9:47 PM

In reference to: Why do civilizations fail? I was quite impressed with Paul Johnson's book, Enemies of Society. It was published by Atheneum in 1977. A small quibble is that islamism was not on his radar screen, and islam is only lightly discussed.

In his last chapter ("A New Deuteronomy") (pg 255) he sums things up:

"Hence civilization will always be at risk, and every age is prudent to regard the threats to it with unique seriousness. ...There is no easy defensive formula, and the most effective strategy is to identify the malign forces quickly, as and when they appear. that has been the chief purpose of this book...the Ten Pillars of Civilization...

first, and perhaps most important is to reassert our belief in moral absolutes

[2nd]: Violence should never be allowed to pay, or be seen to pay.

[3rd]: democracy is the least evil , and on the whole the most effective, form of government

[4th:] the rule of law

[5th:] the importance of the individual [over corporate and group contructions]

[6th:]there is nothing morally unhealthy about the existence of a middle class in society

[7th:] when the claims of freedom conflict with the pursuit of other desirable objects of public policy, freedom should normally prevail

[8th:] beware of those who seek to win an argument at the expense of the language

[9th:] trust science...not pseudosciences

[10th:] no consideration should ever deflect us from the pursuit and recognition of truth, for that is essentially what constitutes civilization itself."

It might be a good book to add to Hugh's previous list of good books to read.

Posted by: del at November 27, 2005 10:27 PM

The illiteracy rate in the Islamic world is very high but the most heinous atrocities are committed by well-educated, often Western educated, muslims. The 9-11 savages were hardly illiterate or destitute. They were sold on the prospect of martyrdom and 72 virgins when they could have enjoyed long and prosperous temporal lives.

Many muslim doctors and other professionals have been arrested in the U.S. for terrorism related crimes. It appears to me that the most diabolical, fanatical, and capable muslim terrorists are the intelligent, highly educated ones. Islamic fanaticism is not confined to the rabid throngs of illiterate, raving lunatics. It occurs far too frequently among wealthy and educated muslims who have lived and thrived in the West.

It is apparent that many muslims who immigrate to the West for freedom and opportunity often fail to appreciate their good fortune and work tirelessly to destroy the hen that laid their golden eggs. Who knows what these people expect when they leave their homelands and immigrate to America or Europe, but I would wager that 99% of them have a damn good apperception of what to expect. Many of them come to join an established Islamic community where they can retain their retrograde, archaic culture and religion, and pick and choose from the bountiful opportunities available. They have every intention of sustaining their Islamic identities while enjoying the best of both worlds.

Even highly intelligent, well-educated muslims are thoroughly brainwashed by Islamic BS and are often more fanatical and dangerous than the illiterate hordes. These people have money, the prestige of professional status, and the mental stamina to coordinate complex schemes. They worry me far more than the uneducated and undereducated. And then there are the secular muslims who suddenly and without warning become pious, devout, and deadly almost overnight. I believe Islam's apostates, who have warned that all muslims are potential terrorists. Who would know better than they?

Education is important to dispel the myths of Islam but that will take decades, maybe centuries, and as of today, this endeavor has not even begun. The muslim next door with a Doctorate is just as deluded by Islamic hogwash as the muslim cab driver who dropped out of high school.

Posted by: Susanp at November 27, 2005 10:44 PM

I have never seen such hate. I am a Muslim and an American.Perhaps what needs to happen is that we as Muslims need to be seen as people with our own thoughts. For your information there has been Immans and teachers speak against the viloence.You will never see that in the media.Have you heard anyone speak of the violence in Iraq and Afaganstan.Oh, that's right its ok we are at war with "them" You also need to see that we are here and we are staying. Many generations have been born here and many more will be. I myslef have 8 children all who are Muslim.Yes I was born Muslim too right here in the USA. Wow we are not all from the Mid-East.

Posted by: salamispeace at November 28, 2005 1:26 AM

I have never seen such hate. I am a Muslim and an American.Perhaps what needs to happen is that we as Muslims need to be seen as people with our own thoughts. For your information there has been Immans and teachers speak against the viloence.You will never see that in the media.Have you heard anyone speak of the violence in Iraq and Afaganstan.Oh, that's right its ok we are at war with "them" You also need to see that we are here and we are staying. Many generations have been born here and many more will be. I myslef have 8 children all who are Muslim.Yes I was born Muslim too right here in the USA. Wow we are not all from the Mid-East.

Posted by: salamispeace at November 28, 2005 1:26 AM

I am suprised at all the hate. So tell me what do you think at me. I am an American and Muslim. Married to an Arab. What does that make me. I will tell you. The same as all of you. The difference I dont spew hate. The Quran says my relegion for me and your relegion for you.There have been Muslims speaking out against the violence. We are like other relegions in the world we all heve our own views. We are here to stay and growing all over the world everyday. Tell me if we are so full of hate and violence why is that? Are there that many people in the world that belevie the viloence is the only way. Don't think so. Take the time to get to know us you may even like us

Posted by: salamispeace at November 28, 2005 1:32 AM

I am suprised at all the hate. So tell me what do you think at me. I am an American and Muslim. Married to an Arab. What does that make me. I will tell you. The same as all of you. The difference I dont spew hate. The Quran says my relegion for me and your relegion for you.There have been Muslims speaking out against the violence. We are like other relegions in the world we all heve our own views. We are here to stay and growing all over the world everyday. Tell me if we are so full of hate and violence why is that? Are there that many people in the world that belevie the viloence is the only way. Don't think so. Take the time to get to know us you may even like us

Posted by: salamispeace at November 28, 2005 1:33 AM

"We are here to stay and growing all over the world everyday. Tell me if we are so full of hate and violence why is that?"

Uh, maybe because radical islamists tend to kill people who disagree with them? (please see thereligionofpeace.com for a complete list)

Posted by: treehugger at November 28, 2005 1:54 AM

Hugh

you mentionned hiring translators from english into arabic. What do you mean? I have something (someone) in mind. Please do advise.

Posted by: adullam at November 28, 2005 2:13 AM

I myslef have 8 children all who are Muslim

Gee... Allah would be pleased. Long Live Ummah.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at November 28, 2005 3:49 AM

An attempt to dissemble.

"History has indicated that terrorism has used false ideologies and misused religious creeds to explain and perpetuate itself. We need to highlight that terrorism is not linked to religion and must not be associated with any particular civilisation, culture or traditions," Al Mousawi said.

The lessons of history refute this statement as Islam has used terror from its inception and continues to do so encouraged by all those Koranic passages and ahadiths in which one finds mandates to kill, kill, and kill, and kill again, and to subdue and enslave and force to world unto Allah and under the boots of Allah's Muslims.

Posted by: epg at November 28, 2005 5:53 AM

Hey SalamisPeace
I am a very well educated American, well to do, with very liberal values, in an eastern state with many muslim friends.... and you wanna know what I think...... I think that your religion is the greatest source of violence, mysogyny, anti-semitism and backwardness in the world today.
We fought nazism, and won. We fought fascism and won. We fought communism, and won. We will beat your violent, backward religion too.
As far as "hate" goes. There are things in this world that are worth hating. Nazism is worth hating. Mysogyny is worth hating. AIDS also worth hating. And, a desert religion that preaches hatred and is imbued with an unbelievable jealously and hatred of Jews, mistreatment of women, and disrispect for the liberal values of the west is WORTH HATING!!!
And, it is WORTH FIGHTING.
If you don't like it, maybe muslims like you should DEMAND a reformation of your religion. Study Martin Luther, study reformed judaism.
Until then, you should BEWARE the USA.

Posted by: templar at November 28, 2005 8:07 AM

Hello all,

I would like to comment on a few things said on this very important & interesting thread.

I am duly impressed and amazed at how many people here are deluding themselves. To convince themselves that something is "happening" about some muslim problem, that someone is caring, that immigration is down...that ..yada yada.

For example, look at the comments below...full of rhetoric...emotion....and self-delusion.

1) "Since we are at war with the Muslim/Islamic world we have every right and really the duty to immediately stop ALL immigration from the Muslim/Islamic

Perhaps, my friend but you don't count.....only the administration does and they are good friends with the ME. In particular you won't be able to get to work or run your PC without fuel from the ME. So, Bush looks at the wider picture, so you don't count, so keep looking out for increasing Madrasses, Imams, Mosques in the US.

2) "You cannot fool all the people all the time". Perhaps.....but the plain truth is that even with the mountain of info on the NET relatively few people care to worry about the problems within Islam (& therefore the West).

Most people "know" that Islam has been hi-jacked by a few extremists...including Blair & Bush and that is good enough for most people.

3) Gorkhili says "Basically, Islam is worried that if they get exposed, then civilisations will unite and stop this barbaric female circumcising cult from taking over the world".

Nah, won't hold my breath on this one either and the barbaric practice that you talk about only happens in a few places...almost unheard of in Pakistan for example....it seems much more of a favourite in the ME.

4) "The illiteracy rate in the Islamic world is very high but the most heinous atrocities are committed by well-educated, often Western educated, muslims".

So bang goes out the collective theory about poorly educated..muslims being the problem.

Like it or not the truth is that virtually nothing is happenning or can happen.....yet.
Things will happen when at least some of the following happens:

a) the common muslim country has nucleur weapons to "protect itself".
b) Call for prayer is in each town via loudspeaker.
c) Homegrown Jihadists are 10 a penny in the West.
d) There are plenty of muslim lawyers around to protect the Ummah using Western law.
e) A major Western country elects a muslim prime minister.
f) A major western country adopts Sharia which will hapen when the indeginious popolation becomes muslim.

But any and all of these can only happen through the will of Allah (swt). Your ranting & raving can only make you feel better, more educated, less safe & more deluded.....You have a nice day now.

Posted by: Naseem at November 28, 2005 9:22 AM

Salamispeace,

80 million Hindus and Sikhs killed by your Muslims lets me know what I need to know about your "Oh so loving group".

The way your "Peaceful" Muslims hunted down Sikhs and killed their Gurus, thus almost annihilating their populations to the point of extinction shows how tolerant you are.

The destruction of Buddhist culture in Afghanistan and the support the Taliban received from your Muslim countires shows how tolerant you are. Hindus and Sikhs being forced to wear yellow symbols during the early 1990s in Afghanistan on their clothing reminiscent of the Jewish Holocaust years, really got you brownie points in terms of tolerance.

You are here to stay? Actually, it is I who am here tp stya since your Peaceful Muslims invaded my ancestral homes and forced us to fight for our survival for 1300 years, and guess what? You lost, even in the face of the severest persecution recorded by Islamic Historians, (yes your muslims have written tons of history books on the subject, where do you think I get my juice), millions of Hindus and Sikhs taken into slavery, Buddhist Nuns raped on Temple grounds, Children cut to pieces and thrown at their mothers, yes Islam has a histroy of tolerance.

You muslims wiped out the religion of Persia forcing Zorastrians to find refuge with the Hindus of India.

Read your koran and read the hate, and remember, before you start pointing the finger at me, you remember what your religion did to my people. You are no better than a Nazi Holocaust Denier, or worse, you are the one who is full of hate.

SalamisPeace, well Islam is Terrorism. And also, you only wish Salam-Alakum to another Muslim, not to a non-Muslim (learned that from my Arab friends). So I guess you can wish Muslims peace but to the rest of us it would be a sword.

Posted by: Gorkhali at November 28, 2005 9:34 AM

Naseem-

Then I guess the quake in Pakistan is the "will of Allah".

Why are you trying to raise money to save those whom Allah is obviously displeased with?

Could get in trouble there, Naseem, interfering with the will of Allah.

Posted by: treehugger at November 28, 2005 9:52 AM

from post above: "The individuals at CAIR, for example, are far more worrisome to me than the folks we saw dancing in the streets after 9/11."

Well said... I have felt this for a long time... We even have an in situ example of this type of dangerous Muslim apologist/provocateur here in this very thread -- ( see several posts above... )

These Muslim prevaricators and propagandists relentlessly put forward a miasma of deflections, half truths, and all out lies about the true nature of Islam with the primary intent of keeping our larger society confused and in the dark about the true nature and intent of Islam. They are nothing more than agents of destruction and dissemblance. And they represent only one branch of the overall Islamic Jihad. But make no mistake, they fully abet the bloody branch of Islamic Jihad which is willing to conduct terrorist operations to also further Islam's cause. All branches of Islamic Jihad, in short, whoever embraces Islam and wishes to spread Islam, or further the cause of Islam in ANY way are really one and the same.

There is little confusion among Westerners that terrorist bombings conducted by Muslims is egregious and wrong. But the dissembling liars such as Ibrahim Hooper and even posters evident in this thread may be far more dangerous in their ability to conceal and misconstrue the nature and intent of Islam... Every denial that Islam has terroristic tenets is a furtherance of fascist Islam... Every blandishment that the "radicals" are "hijacking" Islam is a furtherance of fascist Islam.

By omission or commission those unwitting or seditious non-Muslim Westerners who further the notion that Islam is a "religion of peace" or that it is only a small minority of Muslims who are causing all the Islamic mayhem and slaughter also further the cause of fascist Islam. This includes George W. Bush, along with most of the leadership of the Western World...

Posted by: jsla at November 28, 2005 10:51 AM

Jsla, I hope you are not talking about me.

I am not a dangereous apologist, I have moved my position and recognise that in some (rare) circumstances Islam is not a religion of peace, but mostly it is.

I resent you talking about hijacking...that is not in my nature... I am a peace loving individual ...any one who knows me will tell you that.

But mostly I tell you like it is ...and a lot of people don't like hearing the truth.

Posted by: Naseem at November 28, 2005 11:28 AM

"salamispeace",

You wrote: "Immans and teachers speak against the viloence"

Could you please provide some exact quotations of what you assert? In particular, please provide direct quotes and references to muslim theological arguments, against violent jihad and against the concept of dhimmitude, made by muslim religious leaders to fellow muslims. It should be quite easy for you, a muslim, to provide this information to an ignorant infidel such as myself. Thank you for your help.

Posted by: del at November 28, 2005 11:57 AM

Your aid dollars at work.

Millions of pounds donated by British and other European charities to help the Palestinian poor were unwittingly diverted to fund terror and support the families of suicide bombers, Israeli prosecutors claimed yesterday.

Ahmed Salatna, 43, a Hamas activist from the West Bank town of Jenin, was remanded in custody by a military court charged with distributing €9m (£6.2m) for such purposes over the past nine years. The recipients are alleged to have included the family of a young man who blew himself up at the Sbarro pizza restaurant in Jerusalem in August 2001, killing 15 people and wounding 107. Hamas and Islamic Jihad acknowledged responsibility.

The charge sheet names two British charities, Human Appeal International and Interpal. Human Appeal is a broadly based fundraising organisation, currently helping victims of the Pakistani earthquake. Interpal describes itself as “a non-political, non-profit-making charity that focuses solely on the provision of relief and development aid to the poor and needy of Palestine”. No one was available for comment at its London office yesterday. Other charities mentioned were the French CBST, the Italian ABSPT and the Al-Aqsa Foundation, which operates in Austria, Belgium, Denmark and Sweden.

Posted by: treehugger at November 28, 2005 1:31 PM

The truth hurts doesn't it, Bahrain?
TOUGH. You're s-o-l.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 28, 2005 2:38 PM

I have never seen such hate. I am a Muslim and an American
Posted by: salamispeace

From the Koran....

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends

Asking salomispeace - is that a preaching of Love?

009.030 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what '''the unbelievers''' of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

And so - we can see exactly who '''the unbelievers''' are - according to the Koran

The Unbelievers believe that God merely spoke - This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased - and the thing was so.

According to the Koran - this is what muslims are commanded to do to '''the Unbelievers'''

009.123 O ye who believe! fight '''the unbelievers''' who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you.

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet '''the Unbelievers''' in fight, smite at their necks.

004.101 When ye travel through the earth there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear '''the Unbelievers''' May attack you: For '''the Unbelievers''' are unto you open enemies.

033.061 They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.

If you want to see HATE salomispeace - there ya go - Straight from the Koran

004.104 And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships.

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

009.039 Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.

Posted by: salamispeace.....

Tell me if we are so full of hate and violence why is that?

Give just one Holy Scripture from the New Testament where humans are aloud to be violent with each other - JUST ONE salamispeace

There aren't any

Out of 'allah's' very own mouth - vile hatred is exposed

The god of the Koran is the sole culprit - when it comes to violence in the name of Islam.

he teaches his followers to fill graves - a Right that ONLY belongs to the True God - because it is He Who gives Life and only He has the right to take it!

He ALREADY took care of that controversy by ordaining only so much time to each and every single one of us here on earth.

Eventually - we ALL go to the grave.

Woe unto those who think themselves worthy of filling them!

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels [NOT HUMANS] shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just.

As you can see from the Koran writings given here in this post shalomispeace - the Koran does 'sanction' murder - in the name of Islam and not for 'self-defense' purposes either - but rather - in "the cause of your own allah"

Now you will not be able to honestly use the word 'never' again - when describing the amount of hate you see in these posts - because none does it better than your own 'allah'

Posted by: Beth at November 28, 2005 4:41 PM

Gorkhali,
Pleased to meet you. It is very important to put forth non-white enemies of Islam. When such a large wing of the deluded left still sees the defense of our civilization as the white "MAN" oppressing the muslim "BROTHER", we need to see that many enemies of Islam are "brown" folks (I take it you are Seikh/Hindu Indian).
I was raised in a VERY liberal church. So liberal, that we visited other houses of worship for interfaith bridge-building and dialouge. I was soo impressed with the Seikhs and Hidus, especially with their meditative practices but when we visited a mosque, my jaw dropped...I could not believe that I was in an affleuent suburb of a major american city. I knew that I had found an ENEMY.
Don't Worry, Brother, there are many many people who stand ready to fight. Of course, many of us are a bit confused as how to actualize our calling in the real world.
Just as Judeo-Christianity is worth defending, Hindu-Buddhism is equally worth defending (the Buddha's goal was reformation of Hindu orthodoxy in a similar way Jesus was a reformer of Judaism).
We must hang together or we shall certaintly hang seperately.
Defend Civilization!!!
Fight Islam!!!

Posted by: templar at November 28, 2005 4:44 PM

"Wow we are not all from the Mid-East."

...what, you mean to say that you're not all from Pennsylvania? The mid-East?

Well, someone with your grasp of English would just HAVE to have been born here.

Sure sure. Right right.

We're here, we're kaffir, and we're not going away.

Get used to it.

Educator Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at November 28, 2005 4:52 PM

To Mike W,

Wow! What did I miss while I was at work today?!

But seriously, you mentioned above that the Rosary is the only thing that might save us. I believe you are correct and here's why:

The Blessed Mother appeared to the three children at Fatima, Portugal, in 1917 and asked them to pray for the people of the earth and the poor souls. She talked about WWI and how if the children and other people would pray, the war would come to an end soon. She also said that if people did not turn from their evil ways that an even worse war would come and peo