Maybe we'll get lucky and the Iranians will overthrow Ahmadinejad themselves, and we won't have to deal with him.

Posted by: pastor_matt023 at November 27, 2005 4:14 PM

a war with iran would be a bloody mess, and would infuriate the liberal iranians and pro american youth in iran. we need to press democratic values onto them, send the youth emails and encourage the youth to rise up and reject radical, revolutionary islam. if iran becomes democratic and moves away from the islamic revolution then we could see a peaceful middle east.

Posted by: lord lucan at November 27, 2005 4:43 PM

"By ALI AKBAR DAREINI"

Call me rush-to judgmental, but I don't trust any Ali Akbar on the subject of Shiite Iran. Until someone produces an Iranian moderate in government, "seeking better ties with the West," whatever that means, I don't believe they exist. The level of proof in the article is about the same as that for lake monsters.

One of the "pragmatists" - Rafsanjani - is on record advocating a nuclear attack on Israel whatever the cost to Islam because Israel is small.

Then, buried in the article, I read this:

But Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say on all matters of state, has endorsed Ahmadinejad's course.

``Ahmadinejad's government represents the people's tendency to revolutionary slogans,'' he said earlier this month. ``For any assessment of the president and his Cabinet, one has to give him time and opportunity.''
The only power in Iran runs through the Islamic 'clerics' (AKA generals, tacticians, military planners) on the Council.

Posted by: Beagle at November 27, 2005 5:56 PM

I've engaged a few young Iranians on the internet, to a person they are secularists, at least not Muslims, to a person they agree that Iran can only be reformed from within, that despite the fact that the 20 something crowd, a consequence of the Iraq Iran war and the urgings of Khomeini - a copulation Jihad so to speak, which is the demographic majority of Iran these days, any overt attack on Iran by anyone will be perceived as a violation and threat against Iran, and the young people seeking liberalism, freedom and change will unite behind the regime in defense of Iran's sovereignty.

As one of them told me, the only way Islam can change is if the change comes from within, pressure from without will only harden them and their resolve.

Which is intuitive, the more one pushes the deeper the opponent digs in their heels. The Chinese finger puzzle. The older generations are a lost cause, too conservative, too entrenched, unable to change much less admit error.

They want change, the seek change, but only want help, maybe the U.S. should inquire with the Student Movement Coordinating Committee for Democracy in Iran as to the best way to proceed.

Some info here Iran.org

With the last say in the possession of the Grand Ayatollah, there isn't much more to argue here.

Anything that President Ach-many-jihad (sorry for the spelling error, no respect intended) says or intends to do must have the ante and post facto blessings of the reverend Mr. Ayatollah Khamenei.

So we know where all this is going, no? Dissent will be crushed (as will be limbs and digits), until there is no more dissent, but piece(s).

Meanwhile, back at the nuclear facility....

Posted by: JohnnyDub at November 27, 2005 7:30 PM

Dissent on campus also exists.

Posted by: Eschwapp at November 27, 2005 7:58 PM

Nariz,

As one of them told me, the only way Islam can change is if the change comes from within, pressure from without will only harden them and their resolve.

Which resolve are you talking about, by the way? You first mentioned reform, then switched to rallying around the regime they supposedly hate. Which is it?

Posted by: Beagle at November 27, 2005 8:56 PM

Maybe the little fella Marmaduke Mahmoud [whatever] will be assasinated by one of his own
who reckons its time for his Boss to meet Allah, the most merciful and compassionate. Imagine the following scene as bits of bomb exploded Mahmoud arrive in front of Allah.
"Help oh Great Allah and reassemble me so I can enjoy 72 virgins as you promised in 'The Book".
"Sorry son. You didn't read my book properly. No
cremations and the virgins don't want fried testicles on toast."
Let next poster continue the story...

Posted by: Morgane at November 27, 2005 9:15 PM

I think the Iranians as represented by Ahmadinijad have the sense that they are on the ascendancy -- and that the time to strike is now... They are pushing their advantages in Iran -- and holding out some vain hope that the less radical will hold sway in the end is FUTILE...

The same thing is happening in Egypt.
The same thing is happening in Saudi Arabia.
The same thing is happening in Turkey.
The same thing is happening in Pakistan.
The same thing is happening in Indonesia.
The same thing is happening in Malaysia.

When some compare our era now to the 1930s and the rise of Hitler -- I must point out that Germany, although a mighty industrial powerhouse, had a mere 60 million population with which to wage its blitzkrieg... Their methodology was a sophisticated mode of warfare which took full advantage of their mechanized prowess as a nation...

We must be mindful that with 1+ billion adherents in increasingly rabid and Islamized nations there is an order of magnitude difference between Germany in 1930, and Islam in 2005... The Muslims also take advantage of their primitivism and barbarity by using these traits to fight their war -- While America could counter and out-produce Germany's own game in World War 2, is there any possibility that the West can muster sufficient means and methods to counter the rampaging seracen today? It is hardly a foregone conclusion how this will resolve itself...

I would also add that Germany didn't have sizable Nazi outposts already established in enemy territory ready to mobilize -- The Muslims have been infiltrating our Western sanctuary now for decades -- and are gaining in strength, numbers, and hatred every day... They will wage this war against us with numbers and hatred -- What are we prepared to do to counter their attacks?

Millets in France? Concessions in Hamtramck? CAIR invited to dinners at the White House?

We are in deep trouble here, and no one seems to notice yet...

Posted by: jsla at November 27, 2005 9:23 PM

It may be true -- no, it is true -- that Iran can only "change from within" and that any attack on Iran will cause a rallying-round. But chane in Iran is, at the moment, not the main thing for Infidels. The main thing, the only thing, is to destroy the nuclear project of Iran, whatever effect that has on public opinion in Iran. Even if Iranians rally around the regime, the monstrous behavior of that same regime will quickly dispel any temporary expressions, or feelings, of loyalty or wounded pride.

Infidels will try to do what they can to leave Iran alone, but they cannot be expected not to deal with the nucelar weapons problem, and it would be criminally negligent for them to fail to do so, whatever the temporary effect on what is called Iranian public opinion. Sorry, solicitude for that opinion should not rise to the level of betting that it is better to wait for the Islamic Republic to be replaced from within. Any Muslim state, and that means any Iranian regime, has to be kept from acquiring such weaponry.

Oh, really, someone asks? But what if the new regime turns out to be a monarchy, with the Shah's intelligent son as the monarch, and strong secular parties in a strong parliament? And suppose that regime had close ties with both the United States and Israel, and made all the right sounds?

Well, in that case one would have a regime much like that of the Shah himself. And the Shah fell. And was replaced by the Islamic Republic of Iran. And that could happen to this new regime. For nice reimges, quasi-secular regimes, Kemalist or Pahlevi regimes, are temporary. Islam, in any country with a Muslim population, can always come back into power, for Islam is forever.

So no nuclear weapons, whatever the putative effect on the camp of reformers, or dissenters, within Iran.

Some things are more important than others. Some things can wait, and other things can't.

Posted by: Hugh at November 27, 2005 10:10 PM

from post above:

"While America could counter and out-produce Germany's own game in World War 2, is there any possibility that the West can muster sufficient means and methods to counter the rampaging seracen today?"

Means and methods? Yes. The will to do so? Maybe not.

Posted by: Infidel33 at November 28, 2005 10:26 AM

The "will" is definitely central, and though I meant to imply such in "means and methods" I can see those can really be separate and apart from the all important "will" of the West...

Is there a lack of will in the West?

The post modernists and Marxists like to believe that history is over, that the primitive human heart has been subjugated to the human mind of reason. Are they right? Is this correct? Or perhaps we simply no longer care to survive? Could this be possible?

This is something I can hardly credit -- is such a thing possible -- in America?

The answer may be 'yes' or 'no' -- certainly cultures and societies have lost their will to survive in the past... Europe today appears to be immersed in a lethal death spiral of doubt and impotency -- This doesn't auger well for us in America... But I don't believe that America suffers from the European... We are allies, but we are not like them --with the possible exception of the British, Europeans have never really understood America and Americans -- I simply believe that most Americans do not yet recognize the contours of the mortal threat we face from Fascist Islam. I hope this recognition doesn't come too late, as it may have already done in Europe.

I see abundant anecdotal evidence that either through denial or ignorance, our larger society is yet unable/unwilling to confront the ugly truth about Islam. This is largely due to the misconstructions of our leadership in characterizing Islam as a "religion of peace" and the trite warmed over pablum that it's only a minority of Muslims who are causing all the Islamic mayhem and slaughter across the globe... This doesn't translate into a lack of will -- but if a serious correction isn't on the way -- if the truth about Islam isn't recognized and admitted by our leadership -- it may not matter...

Post 9/11 I didn't buy into the tired out and useless canards about imperialism, "blowback" from using mujahadeen to defeat the Soviets, CIA plots, or moral equivalency arguments about oil and such... It was simple. We were attacked by a brilliant and ruthless enemy. His methods know no restraints, no bounds. His methods may be effective at cutting us off at the knees -- i.e. the enemy might win!

And I do not need to see another 9/11 in order to fundamentally understand that some things needed to change in the Muslim world, especially in the Middle East and here in the USA.

What are those things? I haven't yet discovered... Cessation of dependence on ME oil? Islamic reformation? Bloody Islamic civil wars? Expulsion of Muslims from non-Muslim lands? Toppling enemy regimes? Annihilation of the enemy? Probably a little bit of ALL OF THE ABOVE is in order...

But if the perception does not exist that Muslims pose a grave danger to everything we hold dear, then how could there possibly be the "will" in America to do some of the brutal and ruthless things that will be required for us to survive this Greatest Islamic Jihad?

Time will tell -- the clock is ticking -- 4 Years into our late awakening, we are still sleepy -- we are still groggy and confused -- we have awakened from a comfortable slumber and now appear to be in a stupor... Will we come to our senses before our house is brought down around our heads by the Muslim Menace and its manifold subterfuges?

Posted by: jsla at November 28, 2005 12:03 PM