Just another sign that poverty is the problem, lack of heating oil.

/sarc

Posted by: Sharku at December 9, 2005 11:14 AM

The BBC actually used the 'M' word in this rather odd news item, entitled 'Young and Muslim: The French exchange '.

This autumn riots and violence broke out across France, prompting people to ask what had gone wrong. At the heart of the debate is France's relationship with its minorities and, in particular, the largest such group - French-born children of North African immigrant parents.

The UK faced similar questions following riots in northern towns in the summer of 2001, when large groups of predominantly Pakistani-Muslim young men vented their anger on the streets.

All this week the BBC World Service's World Today programme has been following two young Muslim students - one French and one British - around each other's troubled areas to try and find out what went wrong.

Yes, what could French-born children of North African parents possibly have in common with English-born children of Pakistani parents? And do you really need an exchange visit to find out?

Posted by: Interested at December 9, 2005 11:15 AM

On a somewhat lighter note, perhaps this is the reason the French are burning their cars. A survey by viewers of the British automotive program Top Gear revealed that 7 of the worst 10 cars were French.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/survey/last_10.shtml

Posted by: johnb at December 9, 2005 11:27 AM

7 of the worst 10 cars were French

And the most irritating car adverts. Remember Papa and Nicole?

Posted by: Interested at December 9, 2005 11:31 AM

Can anyone point me to articles about the French people reaction to the Muslims and violence? Are the locals even at least upset at what is happening to their country?

-Joe

Posted by: Joe at December 9, 2005 11:42 AM

I just have some questions for the people who blames the France riots on Islam just because the majority of the rioters were muslim, and they are very simple ones:

1. The US suffered riots in the 90's, and more violent than these ones. Are they due to Islam? Are all the afro-americans muslim?

2. Mosquees were burned during the France riots. Is this also due to Islam?

3. Non muslim people (like "pure" french), who had also taken part in the riots, have been arrested. Do they belong to the "jihadist" movement as well?

I await your answers impatiently.

Posted by: Ispanan at December 9, 2005 12:25 PM

Now if we could only get the terrorists to shove these burning verhicles up the French's arses we'd be in business!

The terrorists can burn the entire country of France off the map. See if I care.

Posted by: pythagoras at December 9, 2005 12:35 PM

Responding to Ispanan:

1. The US suffered riots in the 90's, and more violent than these ones. Are they due to Islam? Are all the afro-americans muslim?

No, no and no.
Arson attacks in LA didn't include churches mosques or synagogues. Arson also didn't include thousands of vehicles and not one single woman on a bus was set on fire.

2. Mosques were burned during the France riots. Is this also due to Islam?

Most likely in retaliation for the churches or synagogues that were also burned.

3. Non muslim people (like "pure" french), who had also taken part in the riots, have been arrested. Do they belong to the "jihadist" movement as well?

Liberal Dhimmis can do all sorts of stupid things - especially French Dhimmis.

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at December 9, 2005 12:44 PM

It is impossible to be Muslim and French. They are mutually exclusive states of being. One can swear allegiance to either the Islamic canon or to the French constitution, not to both because they are mutually exclusive at their foundation. The French constitution vests sovereignty in the people. Legislative power is granted to the people in the form of a parliamentary government. The Law of France proceeds from the citizens of France. At its very core it is the embodiment of the Law of Man, Enlightened Man, Liberated Man, Rational Man. To accept the Law of Man a Muslim must necessarily admit to the abdication of the shari'a and abandon the sovereignty of Allah over the Enlightened citizen. Veritas.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 9, 2005 12:55 PM

Ispanan:

The riots you refer that occurred in the USA during the 1990s took place in Los Angeles during 1992. I was there.

At that time no intensive investigations were made into these riots (or if there were this was never reported), so any hard evidence on this matter is unavailable.

These riots actually had a theme: The African-American community's resentment over an incident involving LAPD police brutality on an African-American man named Rodney King (as seen on a home-made video) and an unsatisfactory outcome of a jury trial where several LAPD officers were tried for the beating of Rodney King--and basically allowed to walk. The African-Americans generally felt the officers should have been convicted.

However, Los Angeles DOES possess a very large Muslim population of African-Americans. The areas where the rioting was most intense (the Southern and Central portions (the rioting actually started at the intersection of Florence and Normandy Avenues) contain sizeable populations of Muslim Afro-American people. In view of the fact that the riots looked to observers as if they had been carefully planned (some observers--some of whom I knew personally-- of the incident felt that the mobs always seemed to know where exactly to go next and what it was going to do next) there is reason to suspect pre-planning may have taken place. We do not know the names of the individuals who began the rioting in southern and central Los Angeles, so it is not possible to establish with any certainty that they were Muslims. But it is far from being ruled out.

The LA riots happened after the first Gulf War and after Saddam Hussein had declared a jihad against the United States. There had been sightings of Ousamah bin Laden IN Los Angeles after the declaration of that fatwa. (I didn't say bin Laden was there actually, merely that there were reports of people claiming to have seen him there at that time). If the LA riots were Muslim-instigated it would not be far-fetched in view of the facts that 1-) such destructive riots would be in line with jihadist warfare strategies against the infidels and 2-)such riots are commonplace in many Islamicized countries.

Events like the French and LA riots showing this magnitude of destructive behavior are VERY abnormal in developed western democracies. They are much more in character with Islamicized countries where such serious social instablity is commonplace.

Posted by: pythagoras at December 9, 2005 1:11 PM

"Arson attacks in LA didn't include churches mosques or synagogues. Arson also didn't include thousands of vehicles and not one single woman on a bus was set on fire."

No, they were pacific protests, excepting the millions dollars and the dozens of lives it costed.

"Most likely in retaliation for the churches or synagogues that were also burned."

So if I understood well, some french go on a muslim quarter full of dangerous terrorists, burn a mosquee under their nose, and escape alive! Is this the explanation, or may there be another, more credible one?

"Liberal Dhimmis can do all sorts of stupid things - especially French Dhimmis"

Thanks, only this last answer made my point. Every time people make stupid statements such as this, they are only disacrediting themselves before the people who visits this forum.

Posted by: Ispanan at December 9, 2005 1:17 PM

Ispanan,

The French rioters shouted the Muslim war cry "Allah Akbar" while destroying "infidel" property.The shouts of "Allah Akbar" as well as the rioters care in targeting "infidel" property have both been noted in the press. So yes Islam was responsible.

Posted by: Roxane at December 9, 2005 1:35 PM

Ispanan said:

"So if I understood well, some french go on a muslim quarter full of dangerous terrorists, burn a mosquee under their nose, and escape alive! Is this the explanation, or may there be another, more credible one?"

Excuse me Ispanan, but did you just fruedian slip/admit that these rioters are "dangerous terrorists"?

"Every time people make stupid statements such as this, they are only disacrediting themselves before the people who visits this forum."

Whom is discrediting whom?

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at December 9, 2005 1:51 PM

Ispanan:

Your point is well taken. Ghetto blacks riot as much as muslims do. Blacks yell "burn baby burn" , while muslims yell "alahu akbar". They reproduce at similar rates and have similar levels of illiteracy. So why pick on muslims?

The main difference is that while ghetto blacks listen to gansta rap, drink Thunderbird, smoke crack and then beat their women, muslims prostrate themselves five times a day while they face mecca before they beat their women.

Posted by: GFB at December 9, 2005 1:55 PM

Robert or hugh please keep the previous post up:

GFB
hey man - no need to make a broad racial and theological assumption like this here. People unite here to face the threat of a global caliphate and it has nothing to do with race, creed, sex or social position. I'd rather eliminate all ghettos but that's for the future.

Right now, no one here believes that all Muslims are terrorists anymore than we believe all African Americans smoke crack so please - consider that we're all human and attack the ideology instead.

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at December 9, 2005 2:10 PM

Interested: you say

7 of the worst 10 cars were French
And the most irritating car adverts. Remember Papa and Nicole?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do remember. Was not this Cleo Renault?

The English saying is:

"Red sky at night shepherd's delight
red sky in the morning shepherd's warning"

The French version should be

“Red sky at night Renault is burning, red sky in the morning muslims are still rioting”

(For American readers, Renault is a French car)

Posted by: Londoner at December 9, 2005 2:49 PM

"Liberal Dhimmis can do all sorts of stupid things - especially French Dhimmis"

"Thanks, only this last answer made my point. Every time people make stupid statements such as this, they are only disacrediting themselves before the people who visits this forum."

Only to those who wish to find that. Anyone who credits or discredits a site based on a brief exchange and a couple of comments in the comments section, rather than gaining an overall and balanced picture, is simply finding what they want to see.

Posted by: redwine at December 9, 2005 3:04 PM

"The French rioters shouted the Muslim war cry "Allah Akbar" while destroying "infidel" property."

Generalizations, yet again, that is the mistake you people constantly do. Were ALL of the rioters heard shouting this? ALL? Or just a minority?

And I would like you to explain this about the infidel property, seeing how they mainly burned the properties of their OWN neighborhoods.

"Excuse me Ispanan, but did you just fruedian slip/admit that these rioters are "dangerous terrorists"?"

I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic.

Posted by: Ispanan at December 9, 2005 3:11 PM

Ispanan:

Do you consider smashing a 24-inch television set over a person's head to be PACIFISTIC?
Since when is a violent act of murder "PACIFIC?" A girl in Beverly Hills was shot in the back while at an ATM by members of a rioting mob. How pacific.

If synagogues or church WERE missed it was most likely by accident or by armed citizens keeping them at bay (that did help finally stop the rioters). At the height of the rioting at least 1500 structures were burning.

60 persons died in the LA riots. At the height of the riots. Most of these were willful homicides inflicted by rioters.

And for your information churches in the southern and central portions of Los Angeles have been suffering heavy vandalism for years now.

I in no way find your arguments persuasive or even sympathetic.

Posted by: pythagoras at December 9, 2005 3:12 PM

Ispanan,France was NOT in desperate need of these desperate Islamic guys from Arab and west Africa. Yes, I know full well 99 percent of these rioters were muslim.Most of them,came to France by night boats,and landed up in these ghettoes. Yes, when you dont have proper doccuments, no one will give you jobs. I ask Ispanan one question- Before comming to France, are these guys living in luxurey? Did France invited them?Why you select only christian countries,when there are so many ofyour own oil rich muslim countries ? Your Islamic countries never let a christian,Jew or a hindu to immigrate,and even the native non muslims are treated like animals. Ispanan,with what face you people not only enter our countries, but DEMAND your way of life? West and America has learnt a big lession by your behaviour in recent times.- The Hindus,Jews,Busdhist,and chritians make best,reliable,and trustworthy immigrants. They will never find fault in every thing,while enjoying a royal life her,never burn churces,cars,buildings,subways,and never ever" kill the hand that feeds."

Posted by: rafia at December 9, 2005 4:13 PM

To gain a perspective on the level of Muslim extrtemism throughout the globe
More than 3500 Islamic terror attacks since 911.
November 2005
134 Jihad attacks
716 Dead Bodies
1077 Critically Injured
yes of course the Riots in france were arranged by the CIA whose agents posed as young "alienated" muslims to reinforce the case for the liberation of Iraq!
http://thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks

Posted by: chevalier de st george at December 9, 2005 4:17 PM

with all these burning cars, riots, it will affect France's tourist industry. and with it hitting the French pocket book, decline of monies coming into the country, they must just serious with this islam cult and ship them all out!!

Posted by: Lulu at December 9, 2005 4:46 PM

Ispanan: "Generalizations, yet again, that is the mistake you people constantly do. Were ALL of the rioters heard shouting this? ALL? Or just a minority?"

Who is "you people"? The very sentence reeks with irony. Love it.

No, not all the rioters were heard shouting "Allah Akbar". Some of them where burning cars instead, and then they swapped.

Posted by: raven_ at December 9, 2005 4:48 PM

Ispanan,

Attempts to distance Muslims from the French riots have been tried without success. The rioters use of the Muslim war cry "Allah Akbar" was reported both in the European and Arab press.You also had Imams intervening to try to stop the rioting (without success). The rioting occurred all over France not just in the Muslim neighborhoods which is how the property of non-Muslims was targeted . Even in Muslim neighborhoods it was non-Muslim businesses that were targets as this report posted right here at JW shows:

But - and this is the crucial difference between the different generations of rioters - most of those living in the French ghettoes are Muslims and have grown up during a period of Islamic radicalisation. Many of the youths hurling petrol bombs on Parisian estates look up to a slightly older group of mosque stalwarts. These men are capable of being forces for both good and mischief; there have been examples from the past fortnight of situations calmed, but also of attackers acting under their direction, so that Muslim-owned businesses, a halal butcher's shop and a kebab joint, for example, are spared, while a bank branch and symbols of another France are targeted.

Posted by: Roxane at December 9, 2005 5:02 PM

Obviously the dhimmi French aren't really interested in stopping the violence. Ruthlessness is called for in this situation.

Posted by: epg at December 9, 2005 6:46 PM

Any doubts that Islam had nothing to do with the french riots can be satisfied by the fact that the governement encouraged muslims organisations to back a fatwa asking them to stop.

And by the video clip that can be seen by clicking on the top left red panel of this site http://www.france-echos.com/

Posted by: Sebastien at December 9, 2005 7:02 PM

Black is white and white is black,
cover the truth, the mohammedans are back.
Burning and beheading are called good,
for in allah's cause they fight,
as the muslim brotherhood.
They're having a meeting tonight,
about us you can be sure,
they want what we have without any work,
They want booty, land, slaves who submit.
Then the desert sands follow,
the earth is left, devastated and hollow.

Good is evil and evil is good,
the muslim sisterhood
are shrouded as in death,
making more mouths to feed,
only suffering is their lot in this life
as a mohammedan's wife, slave to his need.

Posted by: the poetess at December 9, 2005 8:57 PM

Ispanan there is really no comparrison to the two other than they were both riots. The rioters in LA weren't demanding the establishment of religious Muslim enclaves under sharia law as the French rioters are. If a Mosque was burned it was probably because of fire on other buildings nearby spreading because rioters shot at firefighters and police so they stayed away and let it burn, retaliation by non-Muslims or Muslims could have set fire to the Mosques to shift blame away from themselves. Sunnis have bombed Shia mosques in other countries, so it is possible. It was reported on the news that Muslims targeted non-Muslim owned businesses in their districts as well as churches. Also the riots in France have resulted in the deportation of over 25,000 illegal Muslim aliens in France back to North Africa. The riots in LA had no deportations. The riots in LA were over rather quickly. The French riots are still going on.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 9, 2005 9:12 PM

And he urged "the greatest caution" ahead of the end-of-year holidays which regularly see outbursts of violence in suburbs of France's major cities.

There is a story there, missed by Jihad Watchers.

Regular end of year outbursts of violence.

What is at end of year? Christman.
Regular means like clockwork.
Suburbs of major cities in France are Muslim enclaves.

Do you get the picture now.

As regards trying to debate with Muslims like Ispanan, forget it. Part of a Madrass education is how to argue with kafirs. I call it illogic 101.

Following is plagarized from another forum, but the subject is a Muslim apologist.

For example:

1. You say the sky is blue.

2. I agree the sky is blue.

3. Muslim points out that the sea is actually more green than blue, but appears blue because it reflects the sky.

4. You and I each question the relevance of that, if we're game to take the bait that day.

5. Muslim posts and article on light refraction.

6. We renew our question as to why it's relevant.

7. Muslim checkmates us by saying that without a complete understanding of light refraction (like the one she got when she used to manage a group of physicists) we aren't qualified to comment on the color of the sky.

8. We counter that that's absurd and that the sky appears obviously blue.

8(a). Muslim Googles "sky blue", hits "I'm Feeling Lucky" and cuts and pastes the result into the thread without reading it.

8(b). We waste time reading the article, only to find out that it has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

8(c). Muslim then asks a question whose answer is contained in the googled article.

8(d). We point out that the article has no relevance to the discussion.

8(e). Muslim attempts to argue that it does and in doing so slips up and reveals that she hasn't read it.

8(f). We draw attention to the error.

9. Muslim tells us that the sky on Mars is red.

10. We question the relevance.

11. Muslim posts an article on Mars.

12. Go to step 6 and repeat ad nauseum.

See how simple the system is?

No matter what you say, they have an excuse and answer. Don't judge the Koran by Muslim behavior, and don't judge Muslim behavior by the Koran.

They have mastered the art of circular reasoning and avoidance.

The Koran is the word of Allah because it says so in the Koran is the world of Allah because it says so in the Koran is the Word of Allah.

(Actual fact, Koran does claim it is the uncreated word of Allah).

This is circular reasoning par excellence, and there is absolutely no discussion or rational argument with folk who are raised on such logic and reasoning, they are slippery than a mercury.

Posted by: Nariz at December 9, 2005 9:29 PM

Also why did Saudi prince al-Walid bin Talal call Rupert Murdoch and exert his influence to make Murdoch change the FOX news headline banner from "Muslim Riots" to "Civil Riots"? http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47771
Damage control because the truth makes Muslims look bad?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 9, 2005 9:30 PM

yes, nariz, circular,
round,like a wheel,
round and round the words of allah go,
telling us we're bound for hell as
an infidel but not if we follow mo.

reasoning?
who needs to reason?
why think when it's all in the books?
or ask an imam, they know,
they've been educated
in some of the finest universities
in the poorest third world countries,
and brainwashed before they're three.

Posted by: the poetess at December 9, 2005 10:18 PM

“I ask Ispanan one question- Before comming to France, are these guys living in luxurey? Did France invited them?”

If you would have really examined the subject, you would realize this doesn’t apply –the people involved in the riots were born in France, and thus French citizens on their own right, but citizens treated a second-class citizens, because there is no way they will get a job when their employer finds where they come from –and that applies for all the inhabitants of these suburbs, Muslim or not. That, and the diminishment of the subventions the government gave to suburbs organizations are the major cause for the riots.

“Your Islamic countries never let a christian,Jew or a hindu to immigrate”

Where did you get that from?

“The Hindus,Jews,Busdhist,and chritians make best,reliable,and trustworthy immigrants. They will never find fault in every thing,while enjoying a royal life her,never burn churces,cars,buildings,subways,and never ever" kill the hand that feeds."

Oh, yeah, go ask the Europeans what they think about the oriental Europeans, like Rumanians, they will tell you if they are more reliable than Muslims.

To gain a perspective on the level of Muslim extrtemism throughout the globe
More than 3500 Islamic terror attacks since 911.
November 2005
134 Jihad attacks
716 Dead Bodies
1077 Critically Injured
yes of course the Riots in france were arranged by the CIA whose agents posed as young "alienated" muslims to reinforce the case for the liberation of Iraq!

To gain a perspective on the level of Occidental extremism throughout the globe since 9/11:

100 000 “collateral damages” during the Iraq invasion
A ruined country
Use of chemical weapons against Iraqi cities, the American government first denying, and then admitting it.
Abu Graib
Guantanamo
Etc

But of course, these events were arranged by Al-qaeda whose agents committed those crimes to deteriorate the image of the occidental democracies!

Btw I take by your name you may be French. If that is the case, do you agree with the comments about French made above, or is it just that you prefer to argue with me instead?

“The rioters in LA weren't demanding the establishment of religious Muslim enclaves under sharia law as the French rioters are”

Really? Wow, I think I missed that part. Could you point me to an article where they are demanding this?

“If a Mosque was burned it was probably because of fire on other buildings nearby spreading because rioters shot at firefighters and police so they stayed away and let it burn, retaliation by non-Muslims or Muslims could have set fire to the Mosques to shift blame away from themselves.”

What the hell are you trying to say there? That didn’t make any sense.

“Also the riots in France have resulted in the deportation of over 25,000 illegal Muslim aliens in France back to North Africa. The riots in LA had no deportations. The riots in LA were over rather quickly. The French riots are still going”

Where would they have deported them? To Africa? And yes, seeing how 60 were dead during the LA riots, and one in the France riots, thank God the LA riots ended “quickly”.
“As regards trying to debate with Muslims like Ispanan, forget it. Part of a Madrass education is how to argue with kafirs. I call it illogic 101.”

Yes, when someone disagrees with you, its useless to debate with him, since you are obviously right –I know, people such as Muslims or leftists have that annoying habit of not listening to reason.

Oh, by the way, I agree that the sky is blue –on a cloudless day of course- so Im sorry to say your illogic 101 is totally unvalidated.

Posted by: Ispanan at December 9, 2005 11:25 PM

"What the hell are you trying to say there? That didn’t make any sense."
Is English your primary or secondary language? Let me explain this slowly:
If a fire is started in a building next to a mosque and the people who started the fire shoot guns at the firefighters so the firefighters cannot get to the fire to put out the fire then the fire can spread to the mosque and set the mosque on fire also, even though the mosque was not the intended target originally.
Secondly, Muslims have bombed their own mosques, as in Iraq, Sunnis bombing Shia mosques, so why can't they set fire to a mosque and blame Christians?
Understand? Or do I need to use smaller words?
"Where would they have deported them?" Ignoramus. You deport illegal aliens, not citizens. Skin color is not the issue. Nationality is the issue. The point you try to ignore is that many of the rioters in France are Muslims from Algires and North Africa who are there illegally.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 12:03 AM

This same grovelling, dribbling, snivelling rupert - who seems to love money & power above all else - who caved in to the miserable lying, death-loving, mysoginistic moslems. This same man?[a generic term only} backs a lying right wing conservative government here in Oz. This same government has sent troops to both iraq and afghanistan.
What a seemingly twisted individual eh? numbat

Posted by: numbat at December 10, 2005 1:09 AM

Ispanan I meerly suggested the possibility. If Sunis bomb Shiite mosques, why not? Or is something like that beyond your ability to comprehend? Of course it was probably Christians screaming "allah akbar" by your twisted logic! Just the kind of assinine stupidity I would expect from someone who thinks the Quran, a book with no prophecy in it, qualifies Mohammed as a prophet. Of course the Quran also tells Muslims they are superior when they have contributed nothing of value to modern society. LOL! You are good for a laugh kid!

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 10:56 AM

Ispanan, you need to watch your foul mouth kid. Those kind of insultds will not be tolerated on this, or any decent board any more than it would in public. If the Muslim workers in Spain don't like their working conditions, why don't they leave and go back where they came from? Because it is worse where they came from than it is in Spain. All Muslim nations are third world countries, not because of some imagined plot by the Jews, but because Islam keeps its believers enslaved in a 7th century mentality. Muslim nations are impoverished because they follow Islam. That is why they have never made the advances Western nations have.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 11:22 AM

Sebastien merci... I was going to give them the link to the "allah ou akhbar" video as well...

Joe: yes the locals do care ! People were mad of anger and they still are. Wait until 2007.

Mosquees burning ? Where, when ? The tiniest incident involving a mosquee becomes a national drama in France, so if some mosquees had burnt, I would have known it.

Most rioters were young Muslims from North Africa and Black Africa (not all of them, but most of them) and most of them were under 18 so anyway, not in age of having a job so.... I wonder why "unemployment" was invoked to explain their outburst.

I work in a place with Muslim people and they were all rejoicing (openly) during the riots. One of them said "I hope they will also burn Paris" (of course, no consideration for my presence)

I also went to "youth" web sites during the riots and God, they hate us (some of their web sites or "blogs" have been closed down during the riots for "racial hatred").

The people who burnt, killed and threw stones were mainly Muslim. Sorry if reality is reality.

Lastly, I liked the humour of our government... they kept saying: "it has nothing, NOTHING to do with Islam" and at the same time, they were entertaining the Muslim authorities in all the palaces of the Republic to apologise to them and finally, calmed everybody down with millions of euros...

Too bad the journalist of CNN had not the courage to film the events... instead she kept safe in a nice area of Paris and interviewed a kind rapper who spoke perfect English and who explained to her that the youth were demonstrating because the French are racist. And she said "do you think it is the new hip hop generation ?" But ok I understand, if she had gone to the suburbs she might have been injured by less kind rappers of the "hip hop generation".

Strange times we are living, when victims are ignored and criminals praised...

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 10, 2005 11:51 AM

Ispannan, while you're defending AFrican workers, research why Islam still permits slavery and why Saudi Arabia has blocked every attempt by the UN to ban slavery worldwide. Also tell us why the word "abeed" in Arabic means both slave and black, and then tell us about Mohammed's slaves, how he called them "raisinheads" and how he said one black slave looked like Satan.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 11:53 AM

joiesauvage, lots of people haven't heard, but the North African Muslim youth has actively resisted becoming French, even going as far as creating their own language. They speak many French words backwards, like reading Arabic, right to eft and they call it "Ebara", French for Arab, "Arabe", but spelled backwards. It is not solely France's fault that they are not assimilated into the French culture. Of course the unholy, ignoble Quran tells Muslims not to have anything to do with the cultures they inhabit, in suras 4:144 "O you who believe, you shall not ally yourselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Do you wish to provide GOD with a clear proof against you?"
and 3:118: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 12:06 PM

And about the French "racism"... As a 30 years old French citizen, I cannot accept that accusation as I have never met a racist person in France.
The French are not racist, it is one of the less racist nation on the surface of the earth. It welcomed millions of people from North Africa, gave them one of the highest State subventions in the world, cured them freely, allowed them to speak and to follow whatever faith was theirs. The Muslims are welcomed in France ! The foreigners are a chance for France.
People who are not welcomed are those who openly say their hatred towards France and who detroy other people's property, who aggress people every day in the suburbs because they are "white" or "jews" or "french" or women who do not wear a bloody veil. You should hear the lyrics of their rap songs. Those ones are certainly not welcomed and it is not racist to say it.
We welcome anybody as long as they respect the others and live according to a decent level of civilisation.
As for those who keep complaining about being so unhappy in France, and that France is such an injust country, why don't they leave France ? They are allowed to leave France. I would leave France if I thought it was hell on earth.

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 10, 2005 12:09 PM

Bohemond_1069 I am French, I know how they speak, I know they speak Arabic between them, and sometimes even to me... It would not be a problem if on the other hand they did not assassinate old men or burn old women in the street.

To anybody who is wondering what is the state of minf of the French today: we are furious. We are concerned. And you will see it in 2007.

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 10, 2005 12:12 PM

joiesauvage

i went to paris with my japanese girlfriend, i have never experienced racism as what i encountered in paris before. one scene i remember a youth on the eiffel tower squinting his eyes to pretend to be a jap and saying "aaaahhhso".

Posted by: leom at December 10, 2005 12:42 PM

Euhh... where has my last comment gone?

Posted by: Ispanan at December 10, 2005 1:30 PM

leom sorry about that ! i said that I have never met a racist person, but maybe I have been lucky. My point was that a country which welcomes people and gives them a living and cures them and allows them to have their own culture cannot be called "racist".

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 10, 2005 1:40 PM

joiesauvage,

Thanks for your posts, given that you have lived in France all your life, and therefore know what you're talking about.

leom,

I'm always troubled to hear examples of racism, such as what you've described, as well as the racist and bigoted comments that the rioters were making.

Ispanan,

You have shown us, many times, that you are reckless and have no shame. I saw your post before it got deleted. In it, you were apparently throwing another one of your temper tantrums and using foul language (see Robert's disclaimer at the top of the comments section). You should not be surprised.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 3:15 PM

Ha, and when sheik call me as-hole, it is not considered slanderous? Funny how you apply rules differently for each person!

Bohemond:

Saying that it was Muslims of different confessions who burned their own mosques proves again how little you know about the subject. All the rioters were of northern African ascendance, and in North Africa every Muslim is Sunni. The number of shi’a or other Islamic confessions Muslims is practically 0. now about your suggestion that Muslims have burned their mosques to put the blame on Christians, I wont comment it, as it is so ludicrous that it does need any comment. however I have to comment this:

“All Muslim nations are third world countries, not because of some imagined plot by the Jews, but because Islam keeps its believers enslaved in a 7th century mentality. Muslim nations are impoverished because they follow Islam. That is why they have never made the advances Western nations have.”

Now I will apply your marvellous logic, and elaborate:

· All Animist nations are third world countries because they follow Animism
· All Buddhists nations are third world countries because they follow Bhuddism
· All Hinduist nations are third world countries because they follow Hinduism

Btw the Muslim civilization gave Occident advances that were essential for his posterior progress (medicine, mathematics…). Renaissance occurred thanks to Muslim civilization.

Wildjoy (sorry but I just think it is so much cooler than “joiesauvage” :P):

You have no clue about mosques burning in France? Well that’s, weird, I searched google and find a whole list about it. But maybe this was not real and I was suffering some kind of hallucination? Anyway here is the link:

http://www.google.es/search?hl=es&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=mosques+attacked+France&meta=

Posted by: Ispanan at December 10, 2005 4:42 PM

Folks,

This “100 000 “collateral damages” during the Iraq invasion” due to "Occidental extremism throughout the globe since 9/11" that Ispanan cites is not accepted as a credible figure.

The Lancet study has been discredited. The estimate was based on a much smaller sample taken within the Sunni Triangle, and the reports did not distinguish among the dead in terms of civilian vs. military. On top of the other problems (see the linked articles) the margin of error on the 100,000 estimate was 92%. In other words, statistically, it’s garbage.

See Myth #1 regarding the 100,000 deaths estimate.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/11Myths.htm

http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar.htm

http://www.logictimes.com/civilian.htm

This is in no way diminishes the importance of the civilian deaths. My point is simply that people should report accurate figures. This 100,000 figure is not accurate according to these up-to-date sources.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 5:43 PM

joiesauvage,

Here are a couple of examples of that hate rap from the "disenchanted youth" we've been hearing about.

Diane West writes about Islamofascist anti-French hate rap music.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051110-080159-7881r.htm

"There is the rap band Sniper (nice), which, not incidentally, was unsuccessfully sued in 2004 by Mr. Sarkozy for violence and incitement in the song "La France." Sniper sings: "We're all hot for a mission to exterminate the government and the fascists... France is a b- and we've been betrayed... We f- France, we don't care about the Republic and freedom of speech. We should change the laws so we can see Arabs and Blacks in power in the Elysee Palace. Things have to explode."

“…rapper Mr. R has titled this song -- integrate this? "France is a b-, don't forget to f- her to exhaustion. You have to treat her like a whore, man!... France is one of the b- who gave birth to you... I am not at home and I don't give a d-, and besides the state can go f- itself. I pee on Napoleon and General de Gaulle... F- cops, sons of whores..."

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 6:09 PM

Anti-white racism in France

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/005/446loxwa.asp

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 6:54 PM

Ispanan,

These are for you. I believe you were saying something, in a previous thread, about Islam's historical fine treatment of religious minorities?

Religious Minorities Under Islam Historically in Europe
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5016

Global Jihad Policy
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14578
This one backs it up
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18732

This one deals with Islamic treatment of POWs and non-combatants.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14964

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 7:06 PM

Ispanan says : "You have no clue how many mosques are burning in France" And for reference,Ispanan has given the web site reference of 'mosque attack in france'. But the funniest part is, when I went to that site, the report was on a suspected attack of a SINGLE OUT OF USE MOSQUE.! No one was there inside that mosque,and no damage to life or property!. One out- of -use mosque damage Vs thousands of burnt cars,nine burnt churches,and two damaged synagaugs!! What a discovery to prove that even muslims suffered!. This is what they teach the muslims in Islamic Madarasas- The Koranic law of "TAQIYYA- DECEPTION"-Just tell lies in such a way,the infedels will believe it.! Ispanan,please go to the site of Ali Sina ( faith freedom.org)and get yourself free from the evil clutches.You will have peace of mind like the thousands ,who have done before. Good luck.

Posted by: rafia at December 10, 2005 7:22 PM

Ispanan,

In a previous thread, you tried to blame the Holocaust on Christian teachings. This is false. There is nothing in the New Testament that even remotely calls for the extermination of the Jews. (The most you will find are some anti-Semitic statements, but no calls for killing, no calls for subjugation, nothing). The issue is doctrinal support. Turn to the Islamic texts. The Hadiths do call for the expulsion of the Jews and calls specifically for their extermination.

A report narrated by a man named Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, the prophet said: “The hour (of the Day of Judgement) will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say ‘Oh Muslim, O slave of Allah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ –except for the gharqad (bow thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (Reported by Muslim, 2922). This passage was also quoted by Osama bin Laden, May 28, 1998, in an interview with John Bell of ABC News.

Hadith:Book 19, Number 4366: Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:"Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: 'I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Penninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.'"

This general policy of jihad against the Jews (and Christians) is stated in Sura 9. It is open-ended, and it is not abrogated.

9:29 “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute [jizya tax] readily, being brought low.”

According to Sura 9, the idolaters are also to be put to the sword, and they are given no dhimmitude option here. (Verse of the Sword)

9:5 “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”

The conquering of all religions, no matter how averse this may be to the non-Muslims, is the overriding goal of Islam, according to the Koran.

Allah and his messengers will conquer (58:12). Ultimate goal: defeat/kill/convert/subjugate all unbelievers until all religion is for Allah (2:193, 8:39). Allah sent Mohammad (and his followers) to conquer all other religions (9:33, 48:28, 61:9). For a discussion of these verses of imperialism, which call for real battle, not some inner struggle, see http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/ultimate_goal.htm

9:33 “He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.”

Also, you seemed to be surprised when sheik said that Mohammad had been victorious with terror. Why are you surprised? Here's the quote (and there's more like it):

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 7:53 PM

Ispanan,

Last myth for today. "Renaissance was thanks to Muslim civilization.." Sorry we must bust this myth.

http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

BTW, just think about that. Have you actually read the Islamic texts (Koran, Hadith, Sira)? Do you seriously think that there is anything in there that contributes to Art, Science, Mathematics? This is absurd. (Mohammad did not even allow pictures of living things). Do you want to know Mohammad's level of thinking?

Exhibit 1.
Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.’”

Exhibit 2.
Childish vindictiveness: disbelievers make fun of believers, but the final laugh will be on the disbelievers (83:29-36).

Exhibit 3.
Mohammad says menstruation is an illness (2:222)

Exhibit 4.
(Christians and/or Jews are) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166).

Exhibit 5.
In his early phase as a self-proclaimed prophet, people dismissed Mohammad and mocked him (e.g., they considered him a “mad poet,” see 37:36). Mohammad cursed them (Allah would doom them (37:33)).

And you think this genius contributed the the Renaissance?

Posted by: Archimedes at December 10, 2005 8:46 PM

Ispanan I researched your claims that "mosques were burned". I found one in Clichy-sous-Bois where a tear gas grenade went off on 30 Oct. NO mention of it burning. The news reported that a mosque in Carpentras had 2 firebombs thrown in it by an "unknown assailant". They did virtually NO damage. As far as I can tell, NO mosques were burned to the ground or destroyed. By 17 November one dozen Christian churches were burned, ransacked or otherwise defiled by Muslim rioters. Synagogues were burned in Leon, Strasbourg, Toloun, Bondy, Bagnolet, La Courneuve, Julien-La Croix, Toulouse, Paris, Noisy-Le-Sec, and Marsielles.
You also claim "...Muslim civilization gave Occident advances that were essential for his posterior progress (medicine, mathematics…). Renaissance occurred thanks to Muslim civilization..."
That is a lie that is commonly repeated by Muslims and Muslim apologists. Muslim armies invaded lands that had been Helenized by the Greeks, notably Alexander the Great, and taught Greek mathematics, science, medicine and art centuried before Mohammed was born. Archimedes, Pythagoras, Euclid, and Diophantus of Alexandria, considered to be the father of ancient algebra, these Greeks were the fathers of modern math, not Arabs. Even the so called "Arabic numbers" are actually Hindu and were brought to the Greek trained mathematicians by Muslim traders. Muslims copied the Byzantine cathederals and architecture incorporating the Christian originated domes into their mosques. In many insances they simply converted the churches into mosques after they slaughtered the Christians. Prior to the invasion of Christian lands all mosques were open, like the kaab in Mecca still is. Islam is not an innovator or creator, meerly a copier. At one point after being defeated by Christian armies, the caliph ordered all books except the Quran destroyed. His reasoning was that anythign that added to the Quran was superfluous and not needed, and if it contradicted the Quran it was heretical. Islmaic society has contributed nothing of value to modern society. Electricity, radio, television, telephones, cars, airplanes, rockets, medicines, science, all advanced without any Islamic influence. Even in Buddhist countries Televisions and cars are produced. In Islamic countries, nothing. No TV's, no cars, no stoves, air conditioners, nothing. If not for oil Muslim nations would have even less thatn they do. Even the oil they have was found and developed by Western society. The princes keep the money they get from their countries oil reserves to build palaces for themselves while the majority of their people live in poverty.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 10, 2005 9:08 PM

joiesauvage

but i did have a lovely french girlfriend earlier to that and i do love the french people, very cultural and family oriented!

i was devastated to hear about the riots, and still the flames burn.

viva la francais!!!

Posted by: leom at December 10, 2005 10:07 PM

Iraqi civilian deaths estimates.

“How many civilians have died since the onset of the war in Iraq? There are varying reports, but the consensus appears to be between 3,000 on the low end and 30,000 people on the high end (here and here). An excellent argument can be made that these numbers are wildly inflated (the ratio of men to women killed in these supposedly random collateral events is a curious 10:1), however, for the purpose of debate, let us grant this claim and assign validity to the running tally kept on iraqbodycount.net:
[gives an estimated range of 26521 – 29873 deaths]”
-brackets added.

http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar.htm

Would it have been better under Saddam's regime? Based on the average rate of deaths under his regime, if had Saddam and his party been left in power, the number of civilian casualties in the same period of time would have been higher than the Iraqbodycount estimates.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 5:32 AM

Ispanan:

“…Occidental extremism throughout the globe since 9/11:”

Do you include going after Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the category of “Occidental extremism”? Perhaps you would prefer we did nothing and let them kill us? “Throughout the globe”? No.
But Islamic atrocities, terror, and death threats, all ordered by the Koran, are being carried out around most of the globe. (The Islamists are not attacking or threatening the Arctic and Antarctic).

“100 000 “collateral damages” during the Iraq invasion”

You lied. See previous refutations.

“A ruined country”

I personally did not agree with the initial bombing of Iraq, but you neglect to mention that attempts to rebuild the country and establish security are being thwarted by Islamists only.

You also neglect to mention that, to the dismay of the Iraqi women, other Islamists have brought in elements of sharia law. They will not accept anything but an Islamist government. How can you blame this travesty on the Americans, who would have wanted a free democracy where women have equal rights?

You neglect to mention that things could easily have been worse if Saddam had not been removed. You also neglect to mention that much of the killing going on there, since the initial invasion, would not be happening at all except for Saddam Sunni loyalists and various Islamic insurgents/terrorist groups.

”Use of chemical weapons against Iraqi cities, the American government first denying, and then admitting it.”

Don’t you mean Fallujah, whose ‘ordinary citizens’ slaughtered and mutilated western security workers’ bodies deliberately in front of the camera in order to further traumatize the victims’ families and enrage non-Muslim societies all around the globe? Those people who, instead of worrying about and apologizing for the brutality, or trying carefully to reduce the death and suffering, celebrate it with glee and yells of Allahu Akbar, and call for more and more killing? A city where every effort has been made to evacuate civilians?

I don’t support the use of chemical weapons in a context where civilians might be affected. That said, we are in a war against people who will stop at nothing, and would enjoy nothing in the world more than to slaughter and torture all non-Muslims, simply for no other reason than that we are not Muslims. Those Islamists are even killing other Muslims, claiming that the victims are not true Muslims or not Muslim enough, etc.

The Islamist attack us for the crime of being non-Muslim (and the Koran says disbelief is the worst crime). There is no such thing as an innocent civilian in the Koran. There are only Muslims and the "guilty" non-Muslim "beasts."

”Abu Graib, Guantanamo.”

…which contain terrorists, enemy combatants, criminals, and clear suspects. There are investigations, worry, etc., from Americans and westerners, about the well-being of said rogues and suspects. Try to compare this to Koran-inspired beheadings of civilian hostages (who are not regarded as civilians in Islam), which are celebrated by the killers.

“But of course, these events were arranged by Al-qaeda whose agents committed those crimes to deteriorate the image of the occidental democracies!”

No one ever claimed that. You are attacking an imaginary argument (straw man fallacy).

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 7:25 AM

Ispanan,

In the previous thread you said to sheik,

"You are not allowing or forbidding anyone to get away with anything, nor you or the other people who post here will achieve any of what you want to achieve."

The people at this site want Islamic Koran-based terrorism, tyranny, violence, rape, threats, archaic restrictions, etc. to stop. To achieve this, radically reconstructing or totally repudiating the Islamic doctrines is one of the necessary ingredients. Another is to solve the problem of the radical clerics (who are merely conveying the Koran), dictators, officials, teachers, and parents who propagate, maintain, and enforce the Islamic doctrines of hate. Certain groups, such as terrorist groups and militant Islamic regime leaders, for all practical purposes, must be killed or captured--they leave us no other option.

Do you agree with us, or not?

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 8:10 AM

I can really feel for Joiesauvage. When we talk about France's problem, we should recall that certain French politicians, soit de gauche, soit de droite [both right and left], helped create the current problem. Giscard d'Estaing, a so-called conservative, brought in many North African immigrants, making various specious excuses for doing so.

More recently, the previous socialist govt, in which Hubert Vedrine, son of a Vichyite official father, was foreign minister, prepared the way for the present aggression against French society. This is because that govt allowed Arab attacks in France on Jews and Jewish institutions, starting in early October 2000. These attacks included the burning of several synagogues and other Jewish institutions. When it came to Jews, there was no such thing as an innocent civilian, in the eyes of the Arabs and of the pro-Arab French political activists, left and right [i.e., Pascal Boniface, etc.]. The major French TV, radio, and press encouraged hatred for Jews by falsely reporting what was happening in Israel, and portraying Israel as being brutal to Arabs. This kind of agitprop could not help but stir up the Arab population in France against Israel and the local Jews. Leila Shahid, one of the PLO/PA's stable of talented liars, was repeatedly a guest of the French media on nearly every or every channel and radio frequency, allowed to spew her lies right and left. Moreover, she agitated against French Jews in her clever way. After one of the first attacks on a synagogue [in Trappes, near Paris, I believe], she was invited onto a news program on France 2 or TV5. She was shown film of a burned synagogue. She was asked if that were not antisemitism. She answered, shamelessly lying, "Ce n'est pas l'antisemitisme." That is, burning a synagogue was NOT antisemitism, according to the official PLO/PA spokeswoman in France, as much or more of a superliar as Chirac is a supermenteur. This could only encourage such burnings. Yet Leila Shahid continued to be invited over and over to speak on TV, radio, to the press, etc. The socialist govt did not do much to stop or prevent the attacks on Jews, and the next, "right-wing" govt did better, but not by much. As one might have expected, after the Arabs in the banlieues had gotten away with violence against Jews, they concluded that they could get away with violence against French society in general. It seems that they were right in their reckoning. So the French authorities and establishment helped pave the road to the present assaults on French society.

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 11, 2005 8:28 AM

Eliyahu,

I'm glad you brought us back on topic. There is a long list of circumstantial evidence, documented throughout much of November on jihadwatch and dhimmiwatch, that supports the thesis that Islam is a key factor in the riots. With all of that, Bat Ye'or's thesis provides the context necessary to understand this conflict.

Eurabia Defined. Andrew Bostom Relates Bat Ye’or’s Thesis to the Riots in France.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4987

For anyone researching the Islamic aspect to the riots in France, the "iris" site contains a huge compilation of articles.

http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/561-Evidence-the-Paris-Riots-Are-Actually-the-French-Intifada.html

The Islamic aspect is not the only factor, but it ultimately may be the key factor contibuting to the conflict. The anti-Semitic, anti-Christian, and anti-French aspects confirm this. The strong anti-white racism has also been neglected in the mainstream media.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 10:30 AM

Leom,
Thank you for loving France XXX.

Ispanan,
I wanted to answer you but Rafia and Bohemond_1069 did it better than I could have (thank you to them).

Eliyahu,
I am impressed by your knowledge of France... well people from outside often understand better than people from inside... for obvious reaons.
Are you Jewish ? If yes (or even if not !), you will be interested in the new "polémique" which has just enflamed our mediocre columns... It is about one of our most honest "intellectuals", Alain Finkielkraut, Jewish, who has always stood against any kind of racism / fascism. He dared tell some Israeli newspaper that the Paris rioters were "Blacks and Arabs", and immediately: "reductio ad hitlerium", as we say now (= he was accused of hitlerism, fascism etc). He is in big trouble now, as some "associations" are signing "pétitions" for him to dismiss from his "émission" at France Culture (the very left wing, pseudo intellectual, politically correct Parisian radio).
He is not the first one to be "reducted to Hitler". Before him and with him, there was the novelist Renaud Camus (accused of "antisemitism"), Philippe Muray (another novelist who enjoys making fun of the French journalists), Nicolas Sarkozy (who dared send the police in the banlieues), Maurice Dantec (another novelist, a bit mad this one), Oriana Fallaci, Jean Raspail. etc. A historian recently created a scandal because he had dared say in his book that slavery had also been practiced by black people against other black people...

The only crime of those people ? they derived from the official Dogma.

Trouble is this time, Alain Finkielkraut is really respected by his readers, and cannot decently be accused of racism. People wrote to the newspapers who are accusing him (mainly "Le Monde", "Libération" and "Le Nouvel Observateur"), to claim their anger that such a honest man could be humiliated this way and publicly insulted.

It is just an example of what is happening in France: freedom of speech is disappearing. Being Jewish is not sufficient. You can be Jewish and still be accused of being "nazi". Actually, the accusators (probably feeling that they are almost finished) have dramatically increased their hatred, irrational attacks against anybody who does not agree with their Doxa. (A sign that they are almost dead ?)

I feel very sad for Finkielkraut but at the same time, it is so gross that it can only reveal the true nature of the accusators: mediocre journalists, full of hatred and unable to even debate. Finkielkraut is clearly superior to them, his culture and open mindedness and reputation are superior.. and he writes better.

All those people who have been "reduced to Hitler" are now called the "neo cons" by the left wing press, very proud of having found a new label for all those renegates. Trouble is, those people are good people ! One of them said "well I feel flattered to be called a neo con if it is to figure amongst people like Finkielkraut or Renaud Camus" !

Are things changing in France ? The accusation of Finkielkraut helps making the Parisian microcosmos even less credible.

I believe (I hope) that in America, you have more respect for freedom of expression. When Renaud Camus was ostracised in France, the American universities were still entertaining him, arguing that "we Americans are not antisemitic as we fought against Hitler during the war and hence we dont have to accuse everybody of antisemitism to make us feel better + we think that feedom of expression is important".

Anyway... what was the real Crime of Finkielkraut ? He said IT, the FORBIDDEN thing... he said the word "MUSLIM", he said "the rioters are Muslim", which made everybody tremble and get funny and shout "you RACIST !!" .... a racist Jew... a racist Christian, a racist gay, a racist neo con, a racist anything... but never: a racist Muslim ! As Archimedes said: there is a strong racism in the rap songs but hey, guys, caution: this is ART !!! (caution: this is ISLAM ! DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT !)

Those contradictions, however, are becoming too gross... that is why I am not so pessimistic... I know that more and more people will happily let themselves ostracised by our "Pensée Unique" and be proud of it ! There will be more than one Socrates...

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 11, 2005 12:47 PM

Excerpts from the above-cited link on Racism/hate against white French.

Mugged by la Réalité
From the April 11, 2005 issue: The unreported race riot in France.
by Olivier Guitta
04/11/2005, Volume 010, Issue 28

Excerpt From Page 1

On March 8, tens of thousands of high school students marched through central Paris to protest education reforms announced by the government. Repeatedly, peaceful demonstrators were attacked by bands of black and Arab youths--about 1,000 in all, according to police estimates. The eyewitness accounts of victims, teachers, and most interestingly the attackers themselves gathered by the left-wing daily Le Monde confirm the motivation: racism.
Some of the attackers openly expressed their hatred of "little French people." One 18-year-old named Heikel, a dual citizen of France and Tunisia, was proud of his actions. He explained that he had joined in just to "beat people up," especially "little Frenchmen who look like victims." He added with a satisfied smile that he had "a pleasant memory" of repeatedly kicking a student, already defenseless on the ground.
Another attacker explained the violence by saying that "little whites" don't know how to fight and "are afraid because they are cowards." Rachid, an Arab attacker, added that even an Arab can be considered a "little white" if he "has a French mindset." The general sentiment was a desire to "take revenge on whites."
Sometimes petty theft appeared to be the initial motivation. One or two bullies would approach a student and ask for money or a cell phone. Even if the victim complied right away, they would start beating him or her. A striking account was provided by Luc Colpart, a history and geography teacher and member of the far-left union SUD. Colpart said the scenes of violence were so disturbing that he could not sleep for days. He saw students being beaten or pulled by the hair. He stressed that assailants who stole cell phones smashed them in front of their victims: "It was a game. Hatred and fun."
Colpart, who is active in anti-racist causes, confirmed that "these were racial assaults," and the attackers used "far-right slurs, violent and racist." One black student he saw come to the defense of a fellow student under attack by three blacks was called "a white sellout" by the assailants. Some scores of victims were taken to hospitals. Those who were interviewed confirmed that they had been caught up in an "anti-white" rampage and that the cops did nothing to protect them.
In response to this event, a group of leading public figures, along with 1,000 high school students, issued a statement denouncing "anti-white" pogroms. Among them were the philosopher Alain Finkielkraut, the journalist Jacques Julliard from the weekly Le Nouvel Observateur, former minister of public health and founder of Doctors Without Borders Bernard Kouchner, bestselling Iranian-born author Chahdortt Djavann, the journalist Ghaleb Bencheikh, and the film director Elie Chouraqui. At a press conference announcing the release of the statement on March 25, Finkielkraut denounced Francophobia and Judeophobia

Excerpt from Page 2
…Beneath the radar are other incidents, seemingly petty, yet telling, such as one I happened to witness in a Paris department store a few months back. A woman was pushing her baby in a stroller down an aisle. Behind her was a well-dressed, prosperous-looking Arab woman in a hurry. Suddenly the Arab woman pushed the mother, saying, "Move, dirty Frenchwoman" ("Dégage, sale française"). The familiar epithet "dirty Jew" is apparently being extended for more general use.
“Another remarkable verbal innovation is the use of the word "Gaulois"--an inhabitant of Gaul, the part of the Roman Empire that became France--to identify the non-Jewish, non-Muslim, non-black French. Today, the term is used mostly by Muslims and blacks, but, amazingly enough, French whites are starting to pick it up as the rift between ethnic communities grows wider. Journalist Stéphanie Marteau, in an online interview about her new book on Muslim France, for example, speaks of "the Gaulois vote."
Nowhere are the new tensions more obvious than in schools, as documented in a report on the Islamization of French schools delivered to the minister of education in late 2004 by the inspector general of national education, Jean-Pierre Obin. Not publicly released at the time, it has since been leaked and posted on the website Proche-Orient.info.
Obin discusses the attitudes of Muslim students, some as young as first graders. He reports, for instance, that Muslim students, asked their nationality, answer, "Muslim." When they are told that this is not a nationality and they are French, some insist that they can't be French since they are Muslim. This should come as no surprise. The presidential commission that examined the issue of secularism in 2003 reported that "extremist groups are working to test the Republic's strength and push some young people to reject France and her values."
Obin concludes his report with an appeal to the lucidity and courage of French leaders. So far, however, the Chirac administration has shown little willingness to address the new racism. It was similarly slow to recognize the largest wave of anti-Semitic vandalism to hit France since the 1930s. And Chirac personally blundered last July 14, when, in the course of his traditional Bastille Day press interview, he distinguished between "our Jewish and Muslim compatriots" and "just plain French." Jacques Chirac must know that fraternity is one of the pillars of the French Republic. If it crumbles, the whole house will collapse.
--------------
End of Excerpts.

Link
http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/005/446loxwa.asp

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 12:55 PM

Archimedes... thank you for that.

"A striking account was provided by Luc Colpart, a history and geography teacher and member of the far-left union SUD. Colpart said the scenes of violence were so disturbing that he could not sleep for days".

I saw Colpart on TV not so long ago in a show called: "Is there an anti white racism ?" (thank you for the question mark...)I can tell you Colpart was still traumatised and trembling when he was telling his story. However -and it is all the ambiguity of the socialists -he was still unable to admit that there is a real problem and the debate was going on: "IS THERE an anti white racism" as if it was even questionable. Same for one of the high school kids who had been beaten up: during the demonstration, some "youth" told him "dirty white ass France belongs to the Arabs" and hit him. But the high school kid concluded like this: "I think we must be tolerant and accept eveybody as they are"... Brainwashing, delightful brainwashing...

But those things are happening everyday. Why do you think so many "gaulois" are leaving the banlieues (when they have enough money) ? You should hear the stories people tell. Constant aggressions, insults, stones thrown to girls called "sluts" because they do not wear a veil, rapes, threats... and the boys who rape can be 11 years old.

A friend of mine was an "instituteur" (teacher) in one of the hottest "banlieue" and I remember, I always got depressed when he was telling me what was going on there (it was a few years ago). Kids answering him in Arab, threatening him... when he asked "what job do you want to do when you are big" they answered: "I want to get the State subventions like dad, I dont have to work".

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 11, 2005 1:14 PM

Archimedes... thank you for that.

"A striking account was provided by Luc Colpart, a history and geography teacher and member of the far-left union SUD. Colpart said the scenes of violence were so disturbing that he could not sleep for days".

I saw Colpart on TV not so long ago in a show called: "Is there an anti white racism ?" (thank you for the question mark...)I can tell you Colpart was still traumatised and trembling when he was telling his story. However -and it is all the ambiguity of the socialists -he was still unable to admit that there is a real problem and the debate was going on: "IS THERE an anti white racism" as if it was even questionable. Same for one of the high school kids who had been beaten up: during the demonstration, some "youth" told him "dirty white ass France belongs to the Arabs" and hit him. But the high school kid concluded like this: "I think we must be tolerant and accept eveybody as they are"... Brainwashing, delightful brainwashing...

But those things are happening everyday. Why do you think so many "gaulois" are leaving the banlieues (when they have enough money) ? You should hear the stories people tell. Constant aggressions, insults, stones thrown to girls called "sluts" because they do not wear a veil, rapes, threats... and the boys who rape can be 11 years old.

A friend of mine was an "instituteur" (teacher) in one of the hottest "banlieue" and I remember, I always got depressed when he was telling me what was going on there (it was a few years ago). Kids answering him in Arab, threatening him... when he asked "what job do you want to do when you are big" they answered: "I want to get the State subventions like dad, I dont have to work".

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 11, 2005 1:15 PM

sorry posted twice...

Posted by: joiesauvage at December 11, 2005 1:16 PM

joiesauvage, merci des mots de sorte mon ami (thank you for the kind words my friend). Evariste Galois was a young Frenchman who did more for le Algebra than all the Islamic world combined. L'Islam est la religion des barbares, des fous et des imbéciles (Islam is the religion of barbarians, madmen and fools).

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 11, 2005 2:57 PM

joiesauvage,

We are fortunate to have your posts. Unfortunately, I think most people where I live (Canada) have no knowledge of what is happening in Europe. Our mainstream media is similar to France's--very politically-correct and afraid to criticize Islam. Your media seems to know the problem but is covering it up, and our media is naive.

I complained to two of the main television broadcasters here (CTV and CBC) because they kept talking about how racism was a cause of the riots in France. This one-sided, simplistic discussion of racism gives people the impression that this is simply a problem of white French being racist against the Arabs and Blacks. (And therefore reducing their employment opportunities, keeping them segregated, etc.). I thought that this was terrible insult to the French people. By then I was well aware (thanks to websites such as fjordman's and JW's) of the problem of the predominantly Muslim hatred against whites and Jews in France. I also complained to the Canadian broadcasters about their reference to "France's failed Integration policy". They don't realize that traditional Islam requires that Muslims do not integrate with any other culture. They also did not realize the history and government ideology that motivated the development of separate enclaves originally.

To approach the story properly required their journalists to dig deeper, spend more time in France, research the history of the immigration and integration policies. Of course, they also had to research Islam. But political correctness, which has become established as a form of bigotry, probably prevented them from researching further, and certainly restricted what they reported.

We too had so-called expert commentators claiming that Islam had nothing to do with the riots. But if had they read the Koran, they would have seen the Muslim/non-Muslim social apartheid policy. They would also have found in the Koran the clear and consistent incitement to hatred against all non-Muslims. This is a recipe for social unrest.

Had they studied the history of Islam, without the apologist filters, they would understand that there is a consistent theme of conflict whenever Muslims come into contact with non-Muslims. There is a recurring theme, which goes all the way back to Mohammad, of some (non-violent) words or deeds of non-Muslims causing Muslims to become terribly offended and violent. The Muslim violence then can lead to deaths of non-Muslims. In response to those deaths, non-Muslims fight back...and so the cycle of violence continues. At any time, a cycle of violence can be triggered because some strict Muslim, somewhere, is offended. Because there are so many things that are offensive to Islam, there will always be trouble until Islam is either reformed radically or else rejected totally.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 11, 2005 3:26 PM

Ispamem not around today? Maybe he is at vespers ;-)

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 11, 2005 5:40 PM

Archimedes:

1.It is understandable that those same people who bash Muslims intend to make revisionism about the crimes committed against them. Lets say the Lancet study is false (even tough it doesn’t mean automatically the number was inferior but that it could be either lower, or HIGHER). We would anyway have to add the indirect victims, like the ones killed by the lack of infrastructures (hospitals). We would also have to add the victims of depleted uranium bombs. And finally we would have to add the victims of the 12 years embargo that the ONU, under the pressure of the US, imposed on Iraq: an embargo who directly caused the death of 5000 Iraqi less than 5 years old childs per month. In total, the victims of the embargo, adult and children, were some 1 500 000, to which we must add the misery of the rest of the population. The embargo who affects the civil population, especially the children is qualified as genocide by the Geneva Convention, and as such 3 administrators of the embargo resigned their posts, accusing the UN of genocide. Now you can make all the revisionism you want, link me to all sorts of studies, but that wont change the fact that Occident has killed far, FAR more innocents than the Islamist terrorists ever did.

2. Excepting the fact that I rather said that under Islam minorities were treated far better than in other parts of the world, that this article don’t mention how the minorities were treated in Christian Europe, and that it is a right-winged site, yeah, that’s ok.

3. The very fact that Jews crucified Jesus, along with other anti-Semitic statements pretty much encourages anti-Semitism, and it is the cause of the several pogroms that took place in Europe, many of them supported by the Church. There have even been anti-Semitism writings from members of the Church. Hitler, to justify the Holocaust, used passages from the Bible. And now this is where it gets funny. You say: “There is nothing in the New Testament that even remotely calls for the extermination of the Jews. (The most you will find are some anti-Semitic statements, but no calls for killing, no calls for subjugation, nothing)”. Wow, now that makes really a big difference! If the Bible is far more tolerant towards Jews than Koran, then why were they persecuted under Christian rule more than under Islamic rule? Why did the Genocide happen? And why were the Christian Germans ok with it?

You quote hadiths as calling for the killing of Jews, yet the hadiths are in most part historical recits, some of them are of dubious authenticity, but not religious doctrine. You quoted verses, I will quote you others:

"If your Lord would have desired so, all the inhabitants of the Earth, absolutely all of them, would have believed. And you want to force them to believe?”

“There is no place for coercion in religion”

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action"

"Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause."

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. "

"To kill one innocent human being is like killing the entire humanity; and to save one life is like saving all of humanity"

We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).

"Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow."

"Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, 'We have Faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him."

Since these verses cannot be abrogated either, this means that the verses who talk of war / fight either must not be taken literally (for example, fight to convert means rather a fight with “the heart and the word”), either must be taken in a particular context, by example the “infidels” mentioned in many of these texts refer to the Meccans, who attacked Muhammad and his followers. That's the explanation really. Now of course, Islam, like every other religion, can be interpretated in a way to do mishief. Crimes such as forced conversions, slaughters etc. were done by Muslims just as much as by Christians. Anyway, about the Muslim expansion, I will give you two examples: in the Middle-East they were called and helped by the Jews and conquered the region with the passivity of the Christians, tired from the oppression of the Christian orthodox Byzantine empire. Same in Spain, where they were called by one of the two factions opposed in the civil war that was taking place.

In many regions, like Sub-saharian Africa, Central and South-East Asia, Islam was spread peacefully, by Muslim missionaries.

I read your article. Not only it was ridiculously biased, but it also falls short of saying that Assyrians, that almost NO ONE has ever heard about, were the most brilliant civilization to ever exist. And if the author says the Arabs merely took the knowledge that Assyrians had left in the Middle East, then I wonder: if so, why the Byzantine Empire, who was far more advanced than the Arabs at the time of the conquest of the Middle East, had not took this knowledge before? Why was it only, amazing coincidence, when the Arabs emerged as a Muslim people and conquered the region, than that “Assyrian” knowledge began to be “copied” by Arabs? Many advances were due to the Muslim-Arab civilization, although it is true that it has transmitted (after translating them, that is) knowledge that was already present before their coming, in many cases after improving it. That also is called “advancement”. I will post something about all this in a different post, as it is quite long.

Under Islam, the Arabs, originally a patchwork of tribes constantly in war with each other, built a civilization that was in its time the most advanced, rich and powerful of the world. They transformed Baghdad, initially a Persian village, into the fabulous city of the 1001 Nights. At the beginning of the IX century, this city, among other things, had 1000 graduated doctors, a great free hospital, an excellent water canalisation system, sewers, a regular postal system and banks which had branches in so far away places such as China. Cordoba, the capital of the Spanish-Muslim caliphate was with 500 000 inhabitants the biggest European city besides Byzance, had street lighting, schools which attracted people from all Europe. Did you hear about the Alhambra? The Cordoba Mosque? Was this kind of building seen in any other civilization before?

But you are right, THERE WAS NEVER AN ARAB-MUSLIM CIVILIZATION.

You say there is nothing in Islam to encourage science etc. and you are wrong. There are other passages, but this one suffices: “Seeking knowledge is a duty upon every Muslim.”.

“Perhaps you would prefer we did nothing and let them kill us? “Throughout the globe”?”

You mean, like they are doing in Iraq right now?

You say rebuilding is thwarted by Islamists, but this is only partially true: rebuilding was already low or non existant before the actual insurgency begin. Anyway, the insurgency now mainly focuses on fighting the Iraqi and American forces, not activities such as sabotaging the oil extraction facilities (which they did do before). You had enough time to rebuild. And if Iraq has became a heaven for terrorists, this is because you were not able to deal with the Post war correctly, as your government recognized.

The hatred for American that many Iraqis feel should not surprise you: not only they had Sadam (that Occident supported during many time)but Occident starved them during 12 years with the embargo in which, it is said, even powdered milk couldn’t be sent to Iraq because it could serve to make WMD. On the other hand, when the Kurds, the Shia, and dissident units from the Iraq army raised against Sadam after the Gulf war, the US, who had incitated them to do that, didn’t help them, letting women and children be gazed by Sadam.

“I don’t support the use of chemical weapons in a context where civilians might be affected. That said, we are in a war against people who will stop at nothing”

But is using chemical weapons and lying about it because you know how much of an atrocity it is stopping at anything? Is it any different from terrorists killing and mutilating corpses?

“Abu Graib and Guantanamo contain terrorists, enemy combatants, criminals, and clear suspects. “

Oh yeah I guess IT IS BECAUSE OF THAT YOU RELEASE SOME OF THEM. But tell me, why comparing your actions to those of Muslims and the Koran? Don’t you say how bad they are? Why saying “yeah, we do that, but they do worse”? In what manner torturing, raping, bombing, using chemical weapons, starving an entire people to death, killing a whole family because the americans soldiers pull the trigger a bit too quickly make you any better than them?

Sheik:

Kaliphate.com? Oh Im sorry! I didn’t think that sites like CNN were a pro-Muslim site! God, I wasn’t aware of how deep the tentacles of Muslim jihadism ran in the Occidental world!

As for saying that 99% of Europeans don’t want mosques, I regret to say this to you, but as much as you would it to be true, well… no. Wishful thinking -you think and hope all the Europeans think as you, but they simply don't, and they NEVER will, just forget about it.

“India is way ahead of any Islamo-hole, and those that can't lift themselves out of the dirt are, as always, the Muslims”

This was the funniest, and at the same time the stupidest comment you have spouted so far. So lets take India and compare it to an average Muslim country practically with no reserves of oil, lets say, Morocco:

HDI: Human Development Indicator

Marroco:

HDI: 0,557 (the HDI of Iran, paradigm of Islamo-hole, is 0,758)
Rank according to HDI: 125
Average lifespan: 65,7
Per capita income: 3 477

India:

HDI: 0,451
Rank according to HDI: 139
Average lifespan: 61,6
Per capita income: 1 422

Way ahead of any Islamo-hole, indeed.

Now this becomes serious: you are not only insulting someone who is arguing with you, but also insulting and mocking the practices of people who had nothing ever to do with you. Since you seem to be of Indian origin, I could make humorous comment about how the Hindus worship cows, but that would mean to put myself at your level, and this is something I will NOT do :)

Now I see you show as well a marvellous logic! Let me summarize:

ME: Muslims were the authors of important achievements
YOU: one of them was not Muslim and Muslims destroyed a library, so they didn’t make any achievement.

Btw what is going to happen in France in 2007?

I think I have made all my points, so I will say this and then I'm finished with this thread:

Right-winged people like you is persuaded that there is nothing wrong in their society. All is perfect, everyone who wants to earn a living can, there are opportunities for everyone. The poor, unemployed, etc are so because they are lazy, there is no other explanation, and so the Afro-Americans are lazy and don’t want to integrate, this is why the riots of the 90’ happened. There is absolutely no racism or discrimination in America. Same for France: the riots occurred, not because they are lazy, but because most of them were Muslims (that’s a more credible excuse than the poverty one, especially in the current context). The suburban youths have exactly the SAME possibilities of being employed than the “straight” French one. Really?

Do you not think things such as discrimination, poverty, margination in ghettos… could lead people to violence and delinquency? Yeah, many of the rioters just wanted to cause trouble, and there is a culture of violence in these suburbs , but I think it is not any different from the one in the US black suburbs; there was a feeling of desperateness and tiresomeness subjacent to the riots. And they are French CITIZENS, so don’t come with this “they can return to their countries” BS. No one can negate that there is a degree of integrism but why do you have to blame it all on Islam? Did all the riots of history occur because of Islam? Why, if it was caused by Islam, did the Muslim authorities issue fatwas to stop the riots? Do you know their role in talking with the youngs to stop the riots? Do you really think that because some of them shouted “Allah Akbar” this means the riots are due to Islam teachings? In WWII the Germans prayed to God before entering the battles, does than mean that they started the war because of Christian teachings? How many of those ridiculous arguments can you people bring?

Posted by: Ispanan at December 11, 2005 7:53 PM

Now, about the Renaissance:

The Arab-Islamic culture played its leading part in the best way possible in building world scientific renaissance. Arab and Moslem scholars translated Greek heritage and other kinds of scientific heritage which had preceded them in history into the Arabic language which was the language of science and culture. Arab and Moslem scholars left their mark on the European Renaissance. The imprint of the Arab-Islamic culture was predominant, noticeable and effective in many scientific, intellectual and cultural fields. Arab and Muslim scholars invented the numerical system; the figure Zero; the decimal system; the theory of evolution-one hundred years before Darwin; pulmonary circulation -three centuries before Harvey. They discovered gravity and the relationship between weight, speed and distance severa1 centuries before Newton; they measured the speed of light, calculated the angles of reflection and refraction, computed the circumference of the earth, and determined the dimensions of heavenly bodies. They invented astronomical instruments, discovered high seas, and laid down the foundations of chemistry.

The Arab-Islamic culture preserved the Greek culture and safeguarded it from loss and destruction. Had it not been for Arab intellectuals and scholars, people would not have been able to get hold of many Greek works, the original version of which was lost. These works were preserved in Arabic. The West had been very busy studying the Arab culture even after its prestige declined in Spain, two or more generations later, until it reached modern times. The Arab-Islamic culture fascinated a great many Westerner, for translation from Arabic did not cease during and after the Renaissance in spite of the direct Contact with the Greek world and civilization as of the middle of the thirteenth century A.D. when Greek books began to be translated directly into Latin without help from Arabic translations. The Arab culture had its Own worth and personality. It produced many a thing which the Greek culture could not produce in all fields: additions, commentaries, inventions, and Arab discoveries unknown to the Greeks(16).

The translation movement from the Arab-Islamic culture, which helped Europe pullout of the dark Middle Ages into the modern enlightened age, was not confined to the translation of ancient knowledge only -Greek, Indian, Babylonian and Egyptian -from Arabic books into Latin. Christian Europe also translated purely Arab knowledge and transferred patterns from Islamic civilization and from Islamic faith into its public and
private life.

The Arabs and Muslims were the epitome of modern science in every sense of the word. They were the pioneers of modem scientific methods. From the Arab-Islamic culture. European intellectuals and scholars acquired more than just information. They acquired scientific mentality.

It was the dazzle of the magnitude of influence which the Arab-Islamic culture had on European Renaissance, culture and sciences which prompted a German thinker and scientist to come out openly with the truth and say: "That flourishing civilization, whose enlightenment had inundated Europe for many centuries, is truly amazing; for this civilization was not an extension of the vestiges of past civilizations, or of local civilizational skeletons of some importance, or a borrowing from, or an imitation of an existing civilizational mode, as was the case with other cradles of civilization in other countries in the East. It is the Arabs who, with their culture, contrived this magnificent civilization(19)."

While Europe was buried in the darkness of the Middle Ages, the Islamic-civilization (the cradle of the Arab-Islamic culture) was at its apogee. Islam greatly contributed to the advancement of science, medicine and philosophy. As Will Durant said in his book, The Age of Fai1h, "Moslems contributed effectively in all fields. A vicenna was one of the greatest scientists in medicine, al-Razi a most eminent physician, al-Bayruni a most distinguished geographer, Ibn al-Haitham a most celebrated optics scientist, and Ibn Jabir a most famous chemist." Besides, the Arabs were the pioneers of education and teaching. On this point, Durant had this to say, "When Roger Bacon presented his theory in Europe five hundred years after Ibn Jabir, he said that he was indebted to the Maghrebis in Spain who took their knowledge from the Moslems in the East. European Renaissance thinkers and, scholars owed their advent, genius and progress to the giants of the Islamic world.

Posted by: Ispanan at December 11, 2005 8:05 PM

I think it's a mistake to see the riots or pogroms against non-Muslims in France as anti-white rather than anti-kufar. The riots may take the form of attacking whites, and expressions of hate for whites as such may be part of it. But what seems to drive it all is the jihad attitude, a hatred and contempt for non-Muslims. Likewise, the riots in Australia are motivated first and foremost by anger against humiliations and aggressions perpetrated by Arab-Muslims, although here too the mob attacked, according to reports, swarthy people without necessarily knowing their ethnic identity or religion.

Bernard Lewis wrote a whole book, Race and Slavery in Islam [or some such], about Muslim/Arab attitudes toward race and skin-color. You can glimpse those attitudes in the Thousand and One Nights, in the framework story about Shahrazad and in the Tale of the Ensorcelled Prince, and probably in other tales in the collection.

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 12, 2005 7:55 AM

As for Ispanan's apologetics, let us assume that he is right about those whose names he cites. Now the question is, Has there been any Muslim thinker to make a contribution to general civilization since Ibn Khaldun [died 1406]?? I can't think of anybody. Can Ispanan give us some recent names, that is, somebody since 1406?

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 12, 2005 7:59 AM

Ispanan,

"It was the dazzle of the magnitude of influence which the Arab-Islamic culture..."

LOL! Please do develop a more critical approach! What you've presented is extremely weak and has already been refuted by previous posts.

And please do take up Eliyahu's challenge.

Posted by: Archimedes at December 12, 2005 9:28 AM

Ispanan,