Jihad Watch: Fitzgerald: The fifth column

December 28, 2005

Fitzgerald: The fifth column

Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald makes some observations about the American Muslim community in the wake of the radiation scandal:

It is forbidden for a Believer to ally with an Infidel against other Believers. The American government should ponder that carefully -- especially the armed services, the diplomatic corps, and the intelligence services. There are people who may be Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only Muslims. There may be those who are bad Muslims, and who can be bribed to work against fellow Muslims. But those, one must assume, will be the exceptions. One must assume that when someone identifies himself as a Believer, he subscribes to the central idea of Islam (after monotheism): the idea that there is one division, and one only, that counts in the world: the division between Believer and Infidel.
This division has clear political implications, as the influential and high-profile Imam Muzammil H. Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America reminded us in 2002: “We must not forget that Allah's rules have to be established in all lands..."

And how can one do that when outright military conquest is not possible?

The answer, in the new conditions in which Mr. Siddiqi now finds himself, is clear: "..as Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring about gradual change..."

We "should participate" in order "to safeguard our [Muslim] interests" and "try to bring about gradual change..." which can only mean islamization -- a situation where, even if some Infidels remain, they are subjugated to the rule of Islam.

For a Believer, a True Believer such as Mr. Siddiqi, it cannot be otherwise. A past master, necessarily, at taqiyya and kitman, at obfuscation and speaking with forked tongue so that Muslims will understand clearly what he means and Infidels clearly misunderstand what he means -- this is a Muslim Everyman. For that he has earned what the courts like to call strict scrutiny. Every Muslim spokesman deserves such, especially in this New Season of Muslim Support for "Dialogue" and "Avoiding a Clash of Civilizations" and "Pluralism" -- meaning: let us take advantage of whatever freedoms are innocently proffered us until such time as Islam is fully entrenched and cannot be dislodged, and islamization is well underway through demography and a relentless campaign of Da'wa, aided and abetted by an equally relentless campaign of sweet nothings or when those won't do, intimidation and threat of litigation. It is the same everywhere, with the results we all see -- in Holland today, and in France and England tomorrow.

Is it beyond the wit of Americans to learn from the unhappy experience of others?

Is there any non-Muslim in Europe today who could disagree with the following statement: "The existence of a large population of Muslims in European countries has led, for the indigenous Infidels as well as for other non-Muslim arrivals, such as Hindus and Buddhists, to a situation that is far more unpleasant, unsettled, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would otherwise be." That statement is true. How one figures out what can be done, or cannot be done, and how one acts or fails to act, is another matter. But the observation itself cannot, by the realistic, be denied.
What can Muslims do to change this perception, should they choose to do so? Many things. When we learn of a single Muslim would-be terrorist, or actual terrorist, or instigator or promoter of ideas that naturally would lead someone to engage in acts of terrorism being turned in by a member of CAIR, or MPAC, or ISNA, and we learn it was done not to win a green card, and not for the payment of a large sum of money (as is the case with the very few Arab and Muslim informants who have been used), then maybe we'll talk.

Or if we hear of acts of derring-do, you know, some all-Muslim brigade that forms voluntarily and takes on the toughest jobs smashing the "insurgents" in Iraq or the Taliban in Afghanistan, whose exploits would be akin to those of the 442nd Regiment, composed entirely of Japanese-Americans, that was the first or second most dedicated unit in the Second World War, well then may be we'll talk.

But what we see instead is an attempt at every level to gut the quite mild security measures already taken, from preposterously forcing the government not to monitor radiation levels in mosques to protesting any attempt to give extra attention to people who are either Muslims or believed to be Muslims in airports and other searches. And this pressure comes from groups that constantly attack the government, whose officials have in the past been arrested and convicted of supporting terrorism. And when we see a Muslim Marine desert not once but twice (he is now safely in Lebanon) after giving us that stirring "Semper Fi" speech, and the Muslim soldier who killed two of his officers and wounded others, all because he sided with his fellow Muslims against these people, sleeping in their tents, whom he believed would "harm Muslims," or the sailor who apparently had contact with a Muslim ashore and offered to reveal details about the ship he was on, or the Muslim F.B.I. agent who refused to wear a wire because he would not record a "fellow Muslim" or.... well, if there were ever a record that indicated, as clearly as possible, that we are dealing with a Fifth Column, the record is there.

And why should anyone be surprised? Read the Qur'an, with commentary. Read the Hadith. Read the Sira, and find out what Muhammad said about Believers and how they should treat Unbelievers. Muslims are inculcated with the teachings of Islam; the world is divided, uncompromisingly between Believer and Infidel. And now those Muslims live, with Infidels, in Infidel lands. And Muslims threaten those Infidels, their laws, their customs, their understandings, their physical well-being. Why should anyone with a good knowledge of Islam, unfooled by the army of apologists intent on obscuring what Islam teaches, not believe that all Muslim groups should be treated as being made up of individual Believers whose sole loyalty is to the umma al-islamiyya, the Community of Believers, and to the Cause of Islam, to the Jihad to spread Islam? Why should Infidels think for one minute that Believers do not believe that? Perhaps CAIR or one of the other groups can explain how, despite Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, a Muslim in America can owe his loyalty not to fellow Muslims and Islam, but to fellow Infidel Americans, and to the Infidel nation-state that is under the Constitution, and not, as in Iraq, with "Islam" as the final authority which cannot be contradicted.

Explain it to us, please.

We're all ears.

Posted by Robert at December 28, 2005 11:24 AM
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Comments
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Indeed Hugh. The entire mental landscape of Islam is one where the tiniest nudge can send Muslims scurrying back to their customary redoubt - implacable hostility toward "them," the cause of all history's woe, the infidels.

The fact is Islam is a materialistic faith completely and entirely concerned with dominating this world.

Why is this so hard to comprehend? It doesn't go in the "religion box," but everyone and his uncle is determined to make it fit.

Sorry, it won't go in guys. How long are you going to struggle with that thing? Take it's measure - it won't go.

Posted by: Rebecca JW

at December 28, 2005 11:57 AM

Yup, truth spoken to power, right here.

Muslims in the West are a fifth column. Their goal
is our subjugation and ultimate elimination. Given
that, I appeal to the ultimate natural law, the
missing part of "The Golden Rule", which generalizes
it. Reciprocity. Tit for tat.

Do it to them before they do it to you.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 12:31 PM

"It doesn't go in the "religion box," but everyone and his uncle is determined to make it fit."

I think this tack is a rather silly one to take. It implies that if something is a religion, it must be good and must be allowed. Thus, let's say Islam is not a religion -- that'll work! Any social system that believes in a God and an afterlife (not to mention innumerable angels and jinns) and structures everything around these beliefs, as does Islam, obviously fits in the religion box. Let's not let our PC idiots get the better of us and force us into gymnastic logical contortions. It's simple:

Islam is a bad religion that cannot be allowed to have sociopolitical power.

If this sentence causes the PC idiot to suffer cognitive dissonance because it breaks a fundamental platitude of his prejudice, well, too bad.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at December 28, 2005 12:49 PM

Is it beyond the wit of Americans to learn from the unhappy experience of others?

So far, this is true for about 60% of the nation.
Americans cannot recognize a war without large armies invading territories. The Media doesn't help much and often hinders our perception of jihad. The "9/11 President" gets almost all bad coverage. Even the spying of terrorists here on US soil is under intense scrutiny. Perhaps they'll be more trusting of a Dem administration, but given the history of Carter and Clinton, I don't think the Dems will be aggressive enough to hinder Islam's creeping malaise. 3000 dead are not enough to get the message across, I hate to see what finally will.

Posted by: kevin

at December 28, 2005 12:56 PM

Islam is a bad religion that cannot be allowed to have sociopolitical power.

This implies that you can separate Islam as a religion from Islam as politics. You can't. Islam is politics. It is nothing without political power.

Christianity managed for a couple of hundred years with no political power. It doesn't need it to survive.

Islam is not a religion. It is a totalitarian, imperialist political ideology with a few cult aspects tacked on to brainwash would-be recruits, not least young men.

Posted by: Interested

at December 28, 2005 1:00 PM

Very true comments. No progress can be made towards restoring infidel viability until it is clearly established in the public consciousness that Islam is not a religion.

If this requires a public redefinition of religion, then so be it. The current definition is killing us. However, I don't think redefinition is required. Establishing Islam's political and military dimensions would be more than enough to discredit and withdraw the great strategic advantage Islam now holds by way of its fallacious definition as a religion.

This should be easy to do, given that Islam self-defines itself as an aggressor political movement.

Why is this not happening? It's not happening because of overcompensation, excessive caution, and apologetics on the part of not only the MSM but also most anti-Dhimmi intellectuals, who self-defeat by persisting in their attribution to Islam the qualities of moderation and reasonableness.

HARVARD TREASON GEORGETOWN TREASON SOCAL TREASON COLUMBIA TREASON

To begin restoring our viability, to break the Moslems' unbroken winning streak, Islam must be laid out in all its hate and bloodlust -- no more flinching and no more apologizing allowed.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at December 28, 2005 1:34 PM

There is a flaw in Hugh's logic here.

He seems to be implying that Muslims can actually conquer America (or any Infidel nation) without Islamic military/guerilla actions being necessary (let alone crucial) at some juncture.

He cites Siddiqi's sly utilization of PC multiculturalist dialogue in order to further the Islamic agenda in Infidel lands:

We "should participate" in order "to safeguard our [Muslim] interests" and "try to bring about gradual change..." which can only mean islamization -- a situation where, even if some Infidels remain, they are subjugated to the rule of Islam.

But no matter how hard and long Muslims in America simply try to bring about gradual change -- even if it results in inanities like: Muslim women permitted to have driver's license photos taken while veiled; employers deciding to ban things from the workplace that offend Muslim sensiblities; grade school reenactments of the Islamic Pillars; more general disinformation in schools and colleges and educational media about the history and nature of Islam; unique and partial socio-legal enclaves where Muslims are accorded exceptions and/or additions to the existing laws; triumphalist mosques being built; etc. -- none of this can add up to conquest ("subjugated to the rule of Islam"), without the crucial final act that would be necessary: military/guerilla action by Muslims.

Even accounting for the dismal fact of Western PC dominance, Muslims will not be able to supplant Infidel laws and society in triumphalist, conquering terms without including the necessary phase of military/guerilla violence -- and not merely a little bit, here and there, but all-out tactical and strategic attacks on infrastructure and governmental nerve centers; neutralizing police, militias and armies; and maintenance of control of populations. And at that juncture of the "Islamicization", the only PC idiots found to be on the wrong side will be the Yvonne Ridley-type reverts.

Hugh goes on to describe this New Season of Muslim Support for "Dialogue" and "Avoiding a Clash of Civilizations" and "Pluralism" -- meaning: let us take advantage of whatever freedoms are innocently proffered us until such time as Islam is fully entrenched and cannot be dislodged, and islamization is well underway through demography and a relentless campaign of Da'wa, aided and abetted by an equally relentless campaign of sweet nothings or when those won't do, intimidation and threat of litigation.

Let's break down this non-military conquest Hugh seems to be talking about and analyze it:

1) "let us take advantage of whatever freedoms are innocently proffered us until such time as Islam is fully entrenched and cannot be dislodged"

Islam could be fully entrenched and not dislodgeable in a completely harmless way, as long as we would be Politically Incorrectly vigilant about their presence -- which, in turn, could mean (but doesn't have to mean necessarily, in the absence of Muslims actually plotting military/guerilla violence) expulsion, deportation and internment if Muslims fail to comply with the rational rules of our Political Incorrectness.

2) "islamization is well underway through demography"

Again, demography -- sheer numbers -- will only be a threat if we also expect military/guerilla action, not simply by itself.

3) "and a relentless campaign of Da'wa, aided and abetted by an equally relentless campaign of sweet nothings or when those won't do, intimidation and threat of litigation"

As for sweet nothings, intimidation, and threats of litigation: these are harmless and routine in our free system -- unless they are the precursor to military/guerilla actions.

The biggest concern we should have about all this sweet-talking multiculturalist "dialogue" (and/or sugar-coated threats of litigation etc.) is not that it itself is a dangerous entrenchment of Islamicization, but rather that it, along with our PC dominance and only along with our PC dominance, inhibits -- on the part of our Infidel people, teachers, government representatives and police and military decision-makers -- the resolve to take rational defensive actions (such as profiling Muslims in airports etc., monitoring radiation in mosques, monitoring mosques in general) against the prospect of military/guerilla violence against us.

Insofar as we can demonstrate that Dawa and Demography are directly linked as necessary precursors to Muslim military/guerilla violence against us, then we can target Dawa and Demography as threats to our societies. But we shouldn't be saying that Dawa and Demography by themselves can slowly cause our societies to morph by sheer non-violent osmosis into "Islamicized" regimes.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at December 28, 2005 1:53 PM

"The existence of a large population of Muslims in European countries has led, for the indigenous Infidels as well as for other non-Muslim arrivals, such as Hindus and Buddhists, to a situation that is far more unpleasant, unsettled, expensive, and physically dangerous than it would otherwise be." That statement is true. How one figures out what can be done, or cannot be done, and how one acts or fails to act, is another matter. But the observation itself cannot, by the realistic, be denied."

You forgot to mention one very important fact in all this: that the unpleasent, unsettled, expensive, etc, situation is, according to most of our intstitutions--media, government, and especially acadamia--the result, not of muslims, but of the left's favourite bogeyman, i.e. the white, heterosexual, ablebodied, racist, imperialist, greedy capitalist men in the West. Who can blame CAIR for their fifth column activities? They have their leftist allies to encourage and reinforce their demographic Jihad, and who have been attempting, with some success, to dismantle the foundations of our society.

I know this website tries to take a non partisan approach to the jihadist threat to our civilazation, but the truth is that the multicultural and anti Western leftist forces in our society pose a greater threat than the demographic conquest

Posted by: Dhimmiwatch in Canada

at December 28, 2005 1:55 PM

Islam is a religion. There are many places in the world were Muslims do not have political power. Is it "nothing" in those places?

I suppose the purpose in trying to define Islam as "not a religion" is the idea that it will be easier to suppress it and limit its influence if you don't have to deal with legal issues related to protection of religious liberty. If that is the case then why not simply redefine Muslims as non-human? They are dangerous killer apes. Then we don't need to worry about human rights. Let's dispatch animal control to hit them with tranquilizer darts, take then back to the pound and throw them in the decompression chamber.

Islam does not pose a problem to the world because of too much religious liberty. It poses a problem because in the places it gains control it abolishes religious liberty. I think we should prohibit foreign nationals of the dominant religion in countries that engage in religious oppression at home (e.g. Saudi Arabia) from funding or organizing religious activities here.

It is not the activities of Islam that are generally recognized as part of a religion that cause problems (theism/belief in afterlife/prayer/etc.). It is the doctrine of jihad. Jihad is incitement to violence and sedition. The fact that people are inciting violence by asserting that it is a religious duty makes it a more serious offense because it is more of an imminent threat.

I think it will be less difficult to build a consensus around stopping jihad then trying to stop a religion. Few people will buy the argument that it is not a religion.

Posted by: Malta_1565

at December 28, 2005 2:00 PM

The thing I find hard about this topic is that the "one size fits all" philosophy is just like human clothes....it doesn't fit all.

For example I would try to integrate with my neighbours if I were to live in the West. I am a reasonable communicator and you can trust me.

It is a shame to see the position of the infedel...where he feels that all is lost day and night. The odd torched car does not a lost city make.

I agree that there are a lot of "red-misters" but why hold everyone of us responsible.

The infedel use of Taquia & kitman at every opportunity for things that they cannot explain is overdone I feel. Talk to us ...that what people like Tony Muhammed are advocating...good sound bytes.

Posted by: Naseem

at December 28, 2005 2:10 PM

Naseem the mohammadan apologist writes:
"For example I would try to integrate with my neighbours if I were to live in the West. I am a reasonable communicator and you can trust me. "

Idiot is not spelled I-N-F-I-D-E-L dummy!

We should trust you because you say so? No, we might
start to trust mohammadans in the West when they
clean terrorists out of their mosques. But the
attempt to do so in the UK was feeble. About a
quarter of the mohammadans support terrorism, according to polls, and about three quarters are
liars.

We don't think all is lost, either. Just that
the situation is unfortunate, and that we'll
have to kill most of you, which sucks. Oh well,
best to get it done sooner rather than later.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 2:22 PM

"Islam is a religion. There are many places in the world were Muslims do not have political power. Is it "nothing" in those places?"
-- posted by Malta 1565

That's a pleasant thought, but no.

Where Moslems exist without political power -- another pleasant thought, but probably not true anywhere -- Islam would be a nascent political takeover ideology, even a stalled one, but certainly not a non-existent one.

Your logic reminds me of a call I made to Hugh Hewitt. When he asserted that Moderate Moslems are proven to exist because there are Moslem American soliders serving in Iraq, I broke up laughing and told him to crack a book. Hugh, a Harvard Man, hung up on me.

ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION

Dr. Pepper, if the Moslems breed themselves into a majority they will simply retire the U.S. Constitution in favor of Sharia.

They can do this without open warfare.

But, the Moslem practice is to move things along a bit by way of constant low-intensity Jihad, as in southern Thailand right now, where 10% of all homes have been abandoned by Infidels and... surprise! ... been occupied by Moslems.

A problem of civil strife, of criminal incidents, but certainly a terrible cultural misunderstanding with no political takeover intended, right?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at December 28, 2005 2:30 PM

Naseem said: ...I am a reasonable communicator and you can trust me.

I think not - you are muslim and cannot BE trusted! Except perhaps to blow up innocent civilians.

Posted by: Den_Man

at December 28, 2005 2:51 PM

American-

Look, I don't agree with Naseem, but there is no need to be personally insulting. How well can YOU communicate in Farsi, etc?

That's one thing that bugs me about internet communication, that because people are anonymous, they feel free to be extremely rude.

How about discussing the content of Naseems post, not her spelling?

On the converse, Naseem, the use of the term infidel is also extremely insulting. If you really want to discuss matters here, it would help if you dropped that term.

Until such time as the allegiance of Muslims in this country is clearly to the nation, not the ummah, we cannot trust them. I'll give as a case in point the radical Iman in Lodi. Most of the Muslims in that case had been in the US for a very long time, but still did not contact the authorities. That tells me what I need to know about their loyalty to nation vesus ummah.

Naseem, you cannot "fit into" the west until you truly understand and ADOPT INTERNALLY the concepts our society is based upon. After reading your posts for some time, I don't think that you are there yet.

Posted by: treehugger

at December 28, 2005 3:08 PM

I'm not sure that the Muslims need to get to 51.01 % to make their point. Seems to me that in France even 8-10 % of the population breeds massive discontent, hostility, dhimmitude and violance, or maybe I'm missing something. Why would you even want to get to French or Dutch demographic levels? Plus, they have their paid apologists, academics and, most bizare, their non-paid dhimma fan club like the Zogby. I'll never figure that out. To come from a proud marionite heritage, stretching thousands of years, to endure persacution, killing by arabs and "palestinians" in particular(who destablized your beautiful country), and them come from that cultural heritage to become a cheerleader for the PLO and 'explainer man' for the roots of terrorism and to found and fund 'arab american' orginizations is bizare in the extreme. This is beyond self hating. I would love to ask the Zogby brothers what they think about the persacution of the marionites, the killing of Bashir Gemayel(who did it anyway), the Syrian occupation of Mount Lebanon, the productive effects of the "palestinians" in the '70's in Lebanon. Just what do these marionite boys think about all that? Again, to hear them, not just slick, but smart, erudite, cultured, with a sense of history(PhD in Islamic studies to boot), how can they be of such a religious heritage and hold such views. I hate to make holocaust analogies because I think true comparisons between anything are difficult at best, but there was a school of thought amoung the Jews that if they work hard, demonstrate their worth to the German state, keep their hands clean, don't make trouble ect, surely Hitler would then act with justice towards them, wouldn't he? Perhaps the islamochristians like Zogby have the same bunker mentality. I'll out arab the 'arab' in my hostility/contempt for israel, then they'll like me, and, maybe, I'll be safe.

Posted by: biorabbi

at December 28, 2005 3:23 PM

Den_Man says "you are muslim and cannot BE trusted! Except perhaps to blow up innocent civilians".

Den, my life is pretty rough at the moment what with my hubby not well. When I read what you said...it made me cry and extremely angry....for the 1st time in a long time. You bloody pig....how dare you accuse me being a suicide bomber.....you can piss off. What is the point of attacking me personally!!!!!

If every muslim was a bomber then we ALL would be in trouble...don't forget I am Ahamadi.....I have problems of my own.

Tree, sorry about the term infidel....Hugh uses it all the time so naturally I thought it would be ok.

American ...you ARE my favourite infidel.

Posted by: Naseem

at December 28, 2005 3:24 PM

Or, perhaps a better literary metaphor for Zogby and his ilk is the character in Foer's novel and movie Everything Is Illuminated where a bitter, somewhat deranged, anti semite in the Ukraine drives American Jews to their ancestor's burial grounds. He obviously hates the Jews, but something snaps, and we learn that he is Jewish himself, saved by a miracle in WWII, to run away from his heritage. I feel no hatred for self-haters, but it must be a pitiful existance . . . full of self deception.

Posted by: biorabbi

at December 28, 2005 3:26 PM

One problem we have in talking about Islam is that Islam is not a religion in the traditional western sense of the word. When someone speaks of "religion" we automatically think about moral concerns and the afterlife, both of which are other-worldly. Muslims think of moral concerns as a strictly materialistic affair (women veiled, prayers on time, wash your face this way and so on), while the afterlife, when it is thought of at all, exists only in terms of reward or punishment for the deeds of this life. Salvation through faith is not a factor. None of the transcendental realities normally dealt with by religion are a factor.

I didn't say Islam is not a religion, I said Islam is a materialistic religion. The ideational universe springing from Islam is centered on the material world not the realm of higher spiritual thought. The believer is pointed in the direction of this world, not the next. If he is pointed toward the next world, it is only to motivate him to jihad for the sake of Islam in this world.

So from the point of view of the west, Islam "is a totalitarian, imperialist political ideology with a few cult aspects tacked on to brainwash would-be recruits, not least young men." (Interested)

We have no other way to see it. That's how it looks from here (in the sane non-Muslim universe).

Posted by: Rebecca JW

at December 28, 2005 3:33 PM

"their non-paid dhimma fan club like the Zogby..."
-- from a posting above

Which of the two Zogby brothers are you describing as a "non-paid" exhibitor of the sentiments and attitudes that we now call "dhimmitude"? What makes you think he is not getting paid for his efforts?

Posted by: Hugh

at December 28, 2005 3:40 PM

Thanks Naseem.

Don't let the rudeness get you down, it seems to be endemic to the internet (a big downside in my opinion).

I hope your husband gets better soon.

Posted by: treehugger

at December 28, 2005 3:52 PM

New Year's Resolution:

1) I will not frequent sites that make me cry.
2) I will not frequent sites where the posters insult me and anger me to the point where I call them bloody pigs (phut phut, my mouth is filthed from saying that dirty word)
3) I will instead try to elicit compassion from the kufirs, using their humanity to show we are all one, really and truly (fingers crossed behind back of course, I'm not stupid)
3) I will

Oh the heck with it. Naseem isn't here for her personal gratification or edification, she's an agent provocateur.

Posted by: Whistling Dixie

at December 28, 2005 4:03 PM

With all of the PC in the US

1. People on the internet are actually saying what they really feel (venting) if you will.

2. To ignore the sheer statistics would be most unwise (In france) currently 10 - 15% are muslim..

3. When you have 10 - 15% of any population belonging to 1 religion which dictates.
Taking control
Using whatever means to gain that control.
Assasinations
Be-headings
Rapes
Sucide attacks
to further their agenda...

Which is World Domination ..

You have to sit up and take notice..

4. The muslims from their Birth have been fed a constant diet of (Kill the Jews) kill the Infidels... (has been going on) for 50 Years.

Compare that to the Nazi war machine which from 1933 - 1937 was training its people to blame all of germanies problems on the rest of the world and Jews (of course)

How many died from this 4 year brainwashing experiment? ... 10's of millions...

5. The muslims and the Islamic clerics have been STATING "Either" you submitt and surrender or we are going to KILL you...

6. This is in total and complete agreement with the koran and its teachings...

7. Read Both Bin ladens and Zarchawis letters...
They are telling us what is going to come..

8. I dont care what Muslims feel...
They started this crap...
We will finish it..

9. All people have a right to exist ...
This is a fundimental right in the west..

This is NOT the CASE in the middle east...
Where they believe that by killing an infidel
they are doing God a service..

10. If you Ignore ALL of the RED warning signs comming from ALL the muslim nations..

If you Ignore What the Muslims are STATING they are GOING to do...

If you Ignore The Koran and its CALLS for Genocide of Jews, Christians, Infidels

If you Ignore Irans Rush to get the Bomb...

If you Ignore the HUGE influx to the usa of Illegal immigrants (including muslims)

If you Ignore the Muslims in Our nation right now
Sitting in mosques demanding Our government be overthown.. and replaced with a
Islamic Faschist Sharia Regime...

If you are this BLIND....
If you are this STUPID....
You DESERVE to loose your Nation and your Freedoms..

I am sorry to put it so bluntly but Hugh is Quite
Correct in his analysis...

Posted by: jingoist

at December 28, 2005 4:22 PM

Naseem writes: ...You bloody pig...

LOL!! Tell me more about your ROP...

How on earth can you stand to live in the 'Islamic Utopia' of Pakistan when this kind of thing goes on and on?

Pakistani Killed Daughters to Save 'Honor' (from the Washington Times)

http://ap.washingtontimes.com/dynamic/stories/P/PAKISTAN_HONOR_KILLINGS?SITE=DCTMS&SECTION=US

The 'bloody pig' thinks this is just too vile and disgusting for words!

Posted by: Den_Man

at December 28, 2005 5:04 PM

Naseem:

If you have such personal problems dear, use your time more wisely, and leave the infidels alone. I mean you do not have to wage your Adh’af il-iman Jihad just now.

Your “You made me cry” bit does not sound genuine at all… just the usual Muslim attempt to garner sympathy from the infidels to mote their response to Islamic B.S. The whitey infidels may be moved, but I am not. I have been around vipers all my life to know what their hissing sounds like.

And all groups of Muslims, whether they are the victims of other groups’ intolerance, are intolerant themselves, maintaining the same worldview of unabated hostility to infidels. I met several Ahamdyia students in collage; all they talked about was the Jews and their hatred of the Jews. They would smile at and treat their Jewish professors in the politest manor and when they are with their Arab friends, they call them the vilest things. Also, the Ahamdyia are as cruel to non-Muslims in Pakistan when they get the chance to be, even more to show their solidarity with the Umma at the expense of the helpless people.

If you are the best that we can hope for from a Muslim, then there is no hope!

Posted by: have_mercy

at December 28, 2005 5:18 PM

treehugger,
I communicate in Farsi about as well as you read
English. Don't get it? Here's a hint: I didn't
comment on Naseem's language once in my post, o
sensitive one. I accused her of taking us all as
idiots, by way of her statement "you can trust me".
Reading your post, I think she hit the bull's eye.

naseem,
I hope your hubby gets his seventy two raisins.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 5:30 PM

From Tulsa, Oklahoma:

The mayor's Citezen Corp Council, which is responsible for oversight of programs to prepare and protect it's citizen's from terrorist and other mass destruction, has on it's Council, Sheryl Siddiqui, from the Tulsa Islamic Society. There is no other religious representation on this council. She uses the forum to access Speaking engagements and distribute Islamic literature at the taxpayer's expense in the name of "education". Tulsa Islamic Society is tied to several terrorist supporting organizations as you may imagine. They know and use the system well. Guard your own.

Posted by: soapsuds

at December 28, 2005 5:58 PM

I'm an American. I was born here. I love my country. But if the government were to force me to choose between Jesus Christ and America, I would choose Jesus Christ. If the government forced me to choose it would mean that the America that I grew up in had ceased to exist. If you say that a person owes his highest allegiance to the nation that he inhabits then you are in agreement with Nero, Diocletian, and Hitler.

There is no absolute (human) authority or allegiance. Church, state, family, and the individual person all have their own appropriate spheres of authority. The state does not have the right to tell me who or how to worship. I don't need its authorization. Likewise religious leaders do not have the right to tell their communities who they are obligated or permitted to wage war against. That is trespassing on the authority of the state.

If you ask a Muslim to choose between Allah and the country he lives in, he will of course say he chooses Allah. The question is what will that allegiance lead him to do. People don't always follow there professed values. Often their real values are a hassle-free life and lots of money.

In the case of making immigration decisions or screening applicants for positions in sensitive intelligence, law enforcement, military, or prison staff I think we clearly need to assume the worst. If someone says they are Muslim then we cannot discount the possibility that they are a jihad supporter. (In WWII we took Japanese-Americans in the army but we sent them to fight the Germans. How much Japanese or German immigration took place during WWII?) In the case of the general population that is already here it depends on their behavior. If they actively advocate jihad they are advocating war against us. That is sedition and/or treason. There is no religious or civil right to wage war.

As far as the "breeding their way to Sharia" goes: at least in the USA, Muslims make up less than 2% of the population. Unless we do stupid things with immigration and prison-based proselytism the growth rate isn't going to be that great. Mormons breed as fast as Muslims and there are more of them. (As a confirmed coffee drinker perhaps that should concern me but I'll take my chances.)

This is a war. It is not a sprint. It is a marathon. Arguing about whether or not Islam is a "religion in the traditional western sense of the word" is a distraction. When they stop trying to kill us and take us over then maybe the war will stop. Until then it is still on. We need to focus on the jihad.

Posted by: Malta_1565

at December 28, 2005 6:07 PM

The 2 most common problem I find with most people in regards to Islam is this:

1. They would never imagine that a religion could be so vile and a people could be so horrid so any thought about it is immediately dismissed.

2. They don't want to believe, leave the warm, comfortable cocoon they base their reality in. Ignore the threat and let someone else deal with it. Bury head in sand.

You'd think 9/11 would be enough for Americans and our government to learn about Islam, it's "truth" and speak openly about it. But no, we believe in checking Mosques for radioactivity rather than patrol our borders.

The liberal left wants to understand, tolerate and hug our enemies, the right is headed in the correct direction but seems to lack the fortitude or direction to do the job correctly. Whatever the reasons, it just means more people die, innocent people. I wonder what the magic number of deaths is till the average person becomes willing to see and the "right" people start talking about it? I wonder what horror must be committed in order for the veil to come off, for the light to shine? Will it take fearing for ones life before the apathy or cocoon myopic reality is shattered?

Keep talking, never surrender.........

Posted by: Wretched Simpleton

at December 28, 2005 6:23 PM

American says "I hope your hubby gets his seventy two raisins".

American, I won't describe to you what I'm going through at the moment simply because I know it will bore you.

Also it would be wrong of me to dignify your comment with the sort of response it deserves instead I will say this.

Whether my hubby gets his seventy two raisins or not .....it has nothing to do with what you say but everything to do with the will of Allah (swt) coupled with response from the appropriate western medicine....nothing to do with anything you say...so go ahead and say your sweet nothings....it makes no deifference.

One more thing American...even if he gets his 72 raisins, I may disappear off the radar for a bit but will not put it on this board for you to gloat ...all is the will of Allah (swt) and his messenger Muhammed (PBUH).

So come on American ....pile on the personal insults ..add them to injury, I don't worry about it. It is my turn to be tested by Allah (SWT), like people within the ummah do in Sudan and Iraq and Indonesia, it has made my failt stronger.

Allah has written....when he showed a map of the flat earth and said to all muslims. "This is for you, the East and the West all is for my muslim, my believer"....so I will see you soon American, when I am drinking my Halal coke and eating a halal burger in downtown Washington.. I may then be alone but I will be visiting a local muslim bank getting an Islamic style bank loan to buy your house for my childrens.

See you soon American.

Posted by: Naseem

at December 28, 2005 6:28 PM

Naseem the Muslim agent provocateur writes:
"Allah has written....when he showed a map of the flat earth and said to all muslims. "This is for you, the East and the West all is for my muslim, my believer"....so I will see you soon American, when I am drinking my Halal coke and eating a halal burger in downtown Washington.. I may then be alone but I will be visiting a local muslim bank getting an Islamic style bank loan to buy your house for my childrens."

See how easy it is to get them to show your true
colors?

No Naseem, you'll never see me or mine, not where
you're going. God willing, your children will leave the awful death cult you're in. We all hope
that Ali Sina is right, and that more and more
your darkness will be dissolved by light. If not,
the only plot of land you and yours will buy from
me will be individualized 6x9 foot pieces of the old farm.

However, if you stay in Pakistan, your daughters
(and sons!) will be used as sex dolls by rich Saudis. We know how much the Saudis love the people from the Indian subcontinent, because many
are brother muslims, and treated just as well as
any Arab.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 6:39 PM

If Islam were not a religion, it would surely be adapted as one by Muslim leaders in the West. There is no more effective way to insulate a political ideology or money-making enterprise from government intervention. Just ask the ghost of L. Ron Hubbard.

Posted by: Charles Martel

at December 28, 2005 6:49 PM

"It is not a sprint. It is a marathon."
-- from a posting above

Two comments:

All those, including the President, who appear to believe that "victory" or "total victory" can be achieved in a place called "Iraq" think it is a sprint, not a marathon. And that is dangerous.

But is it even a marathon? Even if the course is very long, as the metaphor suggests, marathons also have an end. The war of self-defense against those who would promote the Jihad to spread Islam, and thereby to subjugate all others to the rule of Islam, which is to "dominate and not to be dominated," has no end. It goes on forever.

That's not intolerable. Many kinds of difficulties go on forever. All sorts of things will go on forever.

Posted by: Hugh

at December 28, 2005 7:12 PM

American:

You're right, I misread. However, the dummy part was uncalled for.

I still think that it's cowardly to be rude on the internet, since you never have to actually go face to face with the person that you are being rude to.

It also lowers the level of discussion on this board to a mere slanging match, similar to daily KOS or DU.

If that makes me sensitive, I can live with it.

"This is for you, the East and the West all is for my muslim, my believer"....so I will see you soon American, when I am drinking my Halal coke and eating a halal burger in downtown Washington.. I may then be alone but I will be visiting a local muslim bank getting an Islamic style bank loan to buy your house for my childrens".

As for Naseem's comments to American, well, it appears that she still holds true to the ideal of Islamic supremacy, despite the harm she claims extremism has done to her native Pakistan.

Posted by: treehugger

at December 28, 2005 7:20 PM

Naseem is always happy to assert the inevitability and desirability of Islamic domination but is completely unable and unwilling to inspect the internal inconsistencies and innate brutality of the belief system.

In this sense, she reminds me of those totalitarian machines Captain Kirk was always encountering on the original Star Trek. They were programmed to execute a series of commands given to them centuries ago and completely unable to see the inherent illogic of that command set.

If only Shatner were online, perhaps he could deliver the necessary soliloquy to short-circuit her.

Posted by: Charles Martel

at December 28, 2005 7:23 PM

Unfortunately Muslims have learned from centuries of experience that the best way to infiltrate and then take over is to insinuate themselves into the highest level of government and into the institutions of ordinary people as members and leaders. However, Dr. Pepper has raised a valid point: Muslims will have greater and faster success with the complicity of the Left.

Posted by: epg

at December 28, 2005 7:37 PM

treehugger,
My sincere apologies to you. Perhaps if you
knew what Naseem was up to though, you'd have
waited a bit before leaping to her defense?
Anyways, I am sorry, and I take back almost
everything I said about you. You are not a dummy.
But I think you were a bit sensitive. I
understand, and I value people like you, because
we will want to go back to being polite after
taking care of the muslims.I'll say again, it is
a great pity that they will force us to be this
way, but that's how it is.

I'd rather never be rude to any nonmuslim of any faith (or lack thereof!) or background, but I'll taunt Naseem and her ilk, and the defenders of these scum, without mercy. Once again, my apologies
to you. I could have expressed my point without
insulting you, whereas insulting her is a necessity.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 7:39 PM

Is it really necessary to insult naseem simply because she has posted here? I certainly don't support what she has said here and previousy but with comments such as "the East and the West all is for my muslim" her stance is quite obvious.

Personally, I enjoy reading the comments from all of our muslim friends that are brave enough to put their views forward. Dumps of Islamic articles are not wanted and easily skipped but discussions held in a polite manner can be useful. Naseem and others should be made to feel welcome joining the discussion here and if you need to attack, go for her arguments (there is enough evidence out there and others may appreciate supporting evidence for reference purposes).

Posted by: AngryMuppet

at December 28, 2005 7:56 PM

AngryMuppet,
Just ignore my posts, if they bother you.

Yes, I think it is important to keep insulting
mohammadans as long as they call for the murder of
anyone who taunts their pedophile prophet, or
insults their little nazi like koran. I don't
care what you think about making people welcome.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 8:18 PM

Thank You AngryMuppet....It is all I have always asked for...disscussion on the points made...what is the point of a personal attack, and educated society need not stoop so low as wishing for the death of my hubby....how does that help relative to the points up for discussion.

I personally resent any accusation made where I have called out for anyone to get hurt...I just don't want that (even though people here try to put words into my mouth. There are better smarter ways of doing things, these are things that the people of Islam need to learn...talk first...talk second...and then think.

Believing in the Koran does not automatically make me a bad person, or a dangereous person.
Sticking to your beliefs does not make me a bad person.

I have had Ricky who wanted to shove hot riverst through myt cheeks, Beth who wanted to kill 1.2 billion people...wel mpore power to their elbow.

I certainly cannot & should not be held accountable for what OTHER PEOPLE do in the name of Islam...it does not mean that I need to do that too.

No doubt American has his own agenda....good luck to him.

Posted by: Naseem

at December 28, 2005 8:33 PM

American,
You're posts don't bother me at all. I am just trying to understand what insulting muslims will accomplish. You say that it is important to keep insulting them as long as they are calling for death/destruction etc. My point is, wouldn't it be more productive to attack their statements and behaviour.

By attacking a person directly you can immediately put them on the defensive and they will not listen because that is just how they are. If a concept or behaviour is shown to be false or destructive it can be difficult to counter and may be taken onboard.

Posted by: AngryMuppet

at December 28, 2005 8:43 PM

Naseem,
Although you cannot be held responsible for the actions of others you must understand that the evidence is building against Islam as a peaceful religion. Until people such as yourself can not only publicly state that they are against violence but that the major cause of conflict in the world today is the fault (or at least somewhat) of Islam you will face heavy opposition and mistrust. There is too much deceit in the world today and a large amount seems to come from high-ranked muslims and apologists.

And one point I would argue with is that muslims should talk, talk, think. Talking before thinking will only result in ignorant or stupid statements.

I hope you are well and no raisins for your hubby...

Posted by: AngryMuppet

at December 28, 2005 8:53 PM

I've been thinking about something since the day before Christmas, and that is that it's time for members of the non-Moslem community who are opposed to Sharia law and all that it implies, to awaken from our slumber and change our attitude about how we will react to what is now coming our way. It's not if it will come, it's not when it will come, it is here now. And while we insult Naseem or don't insult Naseem, her people are taking us over.

If someone walked into your church and started whacking people with machetes, would you be able to get to your gun so you could take these guys out before they could kill too many members of your community? Would you be ready to turn around, take 8 seconds to assess the situation and put bullets throught the heads of the aggressors, perhaps taking them out before they hit anyone at all? We've read about what the Moslems do to people in churches in Indonesia, or cornfields for that matter. Could we get past our natural inclinations to hold back, not be impolite and actually take care of business, quickly, methodically and with cool heads? That is the real challenge here, to stop listening to what the whiners obsess about, endlessly going on and on about the abstract theories of life. I'm talking defending our own, reviving the American spirit and just saying "no" to Islam.

I challenge each and every one of you who posts at this site to prepare yourselves, mentally, physically and spiritually to fight this perhaps lifelong battle. Start thinking about what it would be like to live under Sharia law, to have your children endangered by this belief system, to have our women enslaved, our men unsure of themselves, all to honor some satanic freak god.

And Naseem,

I wish you know ill. But I do have a question for you:

What could you possibly find attractive about your Islamic religion? What do you get out of it? What is it about your religion that moves you? Can you honestly say that you are unaware of the suicides in the name of Allah? In marriages between 9 year old girls and men old enough to be their grandfathers? In honor killings, deceit and treachery against what you consider infidels? Help me understand why you would think someone like me would ever be interested in converting to your religion.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 28, 2005 9:23 PM

Naseem,

Sorry, I wish you no ill. (Long day.)

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 28, 2005 9:26 PM

"religion" or "socio-political" group misses the point. Islam is a viscious, death-worshoping cult, "conceived in a barbarous brain for barbarous people", as Servier would say. Compare it to the manson family, jonestown, aum shinriko, the wacko in Waco, the bagwan rasneesh, and so on. You'll find it has more in common with these cults than with Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, or Buddhism. Who else commands its followers to murder a daughter who marries for love, and then to murder her sister lest they also mary for love? Who else wants to dictate to it's followers how they must blow their noses and wipe their bums? Its danger stems not from it's political dictates, but from its control over its followers.

Posted by: Infidel33

at December 28, 2005 9:38 PM

It seems very harsh in a way to say something as blunt as "If you are a Muslim, then I'm sorry, I cannot trust you". But that is why values like honesty and truthfulness (one of the Christian 10 commandments, Thou shalt not lie, e.g) are so important in forming the basis of social relationships. The injunction to be truthful establishes the very basis of trust between human beings. That's no small thing. But Islam sanctions lying in its moral code and in doing so, destroys the basis of trust between human beings. So my feeling is that if infidels say that they cannot trust Muslims, it is not our failing. Rather, Muslims have Islam itself to thank for that distrust. It's a simple case of you reap what you sow.

Posted by: Caroline

at December 28, 2005 9:49 PM

It matters not not, Islam is seen as a religion.

Or laws are based on the founding documents. In them are the key, as Islam is like the other, "we are better" based beliefs such as the K.K.K., nazis, etc. The notion of them being better puts them in conflict with our laws, as such they should be forced to reject following what the do, or be forced to leave.

Posted by: Islofob IS-1

at December 28, 2005 9:52 PM

AngryMuppet,
Should I take it by your comment that you
side with the muslims against the Danish who
insulted them? You realize that mohammadans will
not accept your concept of "insult" and will take
a picture of their pervert prophet as a
personal insult.

If not, you'll have to explain what you mean
by insult. If you mean "personal" insult in the
normal sense, as I have been insulting with the liar and provocateur Naseem, well, I still don't have a problem with it. See how quickly the mask drops with a slight prodding?

I don't believe any muslims are trustworthy, so
I'm not interested in "reaching out" except with
my hunting rifle. That's not racist either, guys
like Ali Sina and gals like Ayaan Ali are OK with
me, even if we disagree on particulars. If Naseem
wants to be treated well by me, she can cease
being a muslim. Since muslims hold infidels in
contempt, I feel OK doing likewise.

My real problem is that I'm not a funny guy.
Someone who is much better than me at making
jokes needs to start using the rites of this
grim cult as fodder for humor.

Posted by: American

at December 28, 2005 10:23 PM

American,

You make an excellent point about how Naseem morphs. "She" talks about crying one minute because you hurt her feelings and the next minute we hear an unveiled threat about taking your stuff in our most powerful city, ala (or is that Allah?) Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. My concern here is that much of the time Naseem sounds like a girl. But the threat sounded all male to me. Or demonic channel.

So would you read my previous post and give me some feedback? I think we as a people are not ready to drop our manners, however American they are, and do what we need to do to take care of business. what is your opinion?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 28, 2005 10:50 PM

American,
Of course I would not side with the Muslim against the Jyllands-Posten pictues. Yes, they would have been insulting to individual muslims but the reason they were published was to highlight the concept or idea that images of mohammed are not to be published. They were not directly insulting the traits of an individual which is the point I was making.

I do understand where you are coming from and I may be in the same position someday but for the moment I still have hope for the future. I don't hate or even distrust every muslim that I meet but I am certainly cautious.

Posted by: AngryMuppet

at December 28, 2005 11:12 PM

Islam Must be Outlawed in the Western world's democracies (at least the ones that still care about democracy--some like France leave us wondering if they ever did).

Then the offenders will have to be removed from western society however painfully so. And permanently so. So that they never return or even make an attempt to.

There just is no other way.

WE REPEAT: NO NON-MUSLIM COUNTRY SHOULD EVER ADMIT ISLAM ONTO ITS SOIL!!!! Not now. Not ever!!!!

Here's the legal justification: Islam constitutes conspiracy to commit murder and conspiracy to commit genocide. Islam will stop at nothing to accomplish these goals--look at Islamic "charities," for one example.

But violating laws that protect human life from forces like Islam surely cannot be seen as the commiting of minor crimes throughout the non-Islamic nations. Violating these statutes are crimes AGAINST HUMANITY. Laws that protect human life (most of us would agree) constitute CENTRAL, VITAL, CRITICAL conditions that establish a humane existence for people and are a cornerstone of what is called civilization. If laws forbidding murder and genocide are undermined or replaced the results are already to be seen aplenty in the Islamic world (we at this website are generally all quite aware of the incredible and boundless horrors to be seen and gasped at in horror in such cursed lands as Pakistan, Egypt,Iran, Iraq et al). Who the hell needs that??????

Permitting Islam to be practiced at mosques in any western or otherwise located democracy is not only insane (suicidal I would say) but, in addition, actually quite discriminatory when looked at from a legal perspective. I would be jailed if I did what most imams at the mosques do: defame other ethnicities such as the Jews, commit sedition, plot mass murders, ad nauseum). Yet these people are repeatedly given rights no one else has--and no less with the intent of destroying OUR rights and civiliation. This is the most absurdly illogical and unfair situation I have ever heard of!!!!! And it's going on right here!!!???!!!?

Fight back. WE MUST Outlaw Islam NOW.

Posted by: pythagoras

at December 28, 2005 11:15 PM

Pythagoras,

The question is, why won't our leaders tell the truth about the danger and threat of Islam? And since they won't we can only assume there is something in it for them. But what?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 28, 2005 11:38 PM

The name "Muzammil Siddiqi," seemed quite familiar to me so I did a Google search. I was right; Siddiqi is the director of the Islamic Center of Orange County, Calif., where I live. Here's his resume and contact info (BTW, if you do contact him, DO NOT HARASS HIM! We don't need to give the Muslims any excuse to claim "Islamophobia"):

Involvement: Adjunct Professor of Islamic Studies and World Religions at California State University, Fullerton
Vice-president of the Academy of Judaic-Christian and Islamic Studies in California
Member of the Supreme Islamic Council, Egypt, and the Supreme Council of Mosques, Makkah, Saudi Arabia
External examiner for the Department of Islamic Studies at the University of Durban-Westville, South Africa
Religious Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, California, since 1981
Chairman of the Religious Affairs Committee of the Muslim Students Association in the United States and Canada

Education: Ph.D., Harvard University, Comparative Religion, 1978
M.A., Birmingham University, England, Theology
B.A., Islamic University of Medina, Saudi Arabia, Arabic and Islamic Studies

Affiliations/
Honors: Chairman of the Department of Religious Affairs at the Muslim World League Office to the United Nations, 1976-1980
Director of the Islamic Center of Washington, D.C
Member of the Board of Trustees of the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), 1999-2005
President of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), 1996-2000
Member of the ISNA Consultative Council (Majlis ush-Shura)
Member of the Fiqh (Islamic Law) Council of North America,
Founding member of the Council of Mosques in the United States and Canada

Contact Info: Phone: (714)278-3723 Fax: none listed
E-Mail: msiddiqi@fullerton.edu

Obviously, this is a highly regarded figure in North American Islam. Just as obviously, his views represent the views of however "mainstream" Islam is defined -- and give the lie to the idea that Islam is a "religion of peace."

Posted by: Joseph D'Hippolito

at December 28, 2005 11:58 PM

"The question is, why won't our leaders tell the truth about the danger and threat of Islam?"

The problem is not just in our leaders. The PC whitewash about Islam which our leaders tell us is already believed by the majority of the people.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at December 29, 2005 12:07 AM

PS: Or do you think our leaders are being brave mavericks standing for an unpopular opinion? I doubt it. They are taking a stand they think is safe with the majority of the voters -- and that safe majority position is PC with regard to Islam.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper

at December 29, 2005 1:15 AM

1. Do you guys include the Druze faith as part of Islam? Muslims at best consider us heretics and regularly try to kill us, and we stopped considering ourselves muslims centuries ago.

2. If you ban Islam in the West how are you better then the Muslims who ban all non muslim religions?

3. I thought the Judaism, Druzi, and Christianity all shared the belief that all people are capable of redemption. Since Judeo-Christian religion believes all people are capable of redemption shouldn't the West give the Irshad Manjis and the Salman Rushdies a chance to try to win over their fellow muslims and put their total support behind the Manjis and Rushdies? If you feel muslims are beyond redemption and that it is pointless to support the Manjis explain why.

I am not saying Islam isn't a problem, I acknowledge that a majority of muslims to say the least are following the Quran and trying to ressurect Dar al Islam, and support a war against the Dar al Harb, however there are reformer allies within Islam like Manji, and Hirsi, and because the principles of the west include belief in redemption the reformers should be supported rather then a resort to Islamic style extremism.

Posted by: Druze

at December 29, 2005 4:29 AM

American

I think you have a great sense of humor, if all it took you was 9 words to get her to show you her true colors. You did & do a great job in making the practices of this grim cult as fodder for humor - I found all your posts a riot (and that's w/o any bloodletting). Last thing we want is being simply hateful; we need to mock Islam thoroughly, so that we aren't simply bitter.

Angry Muppet & Treehugger

If we want civil discussions w/ Muslims, they would need do either one of two things:

1. State their real intentions, and gloat about their many successes, like the Indonesian beheadings, the Malay Hindu who will be buried instead of cremated, etc. Of course, we will either have to condemn them or mock them. Which will it be?

2. State that they have real issues w/ much of what is in the Quran, but are not going to leave due to fear of death, or being ostracized, or any other consequence they cant live w/. That way, they are being honest, and then we can listen to them on what parts of their beliefs, if any, are acceptable.

In other words, it has to be based on the truth. If one side is going to lie through their teeth, such an exchange is worthless, other than for entertainment value. Last thing we need here is Taqqiya - we have enough of it out there, as it is.

Posted by: Infidel Pride

at December 29, 2005 5:00 AM

Infidel Pride (sounds like cooking oil) says "Muslims State that they have real issues w/ much of what is in the Quran".

Sorry no can do, the Quaran is the word of Allah given to Muhammed via the angel gibreel. The Quaran defines my life as a muslim...I like being a muslim.

Having said that.... do I have a problem with "muslims"who kill, maim and cause mayhem.

I have a big problem with them, they hijack Islam, they hold 1.2 billion people to ransom....and then we have misplaced & misdirected infidel anger towards the innocent...that would be me.

The problem is ours together....hence the need for muslims in the West...together we can eridicate the fringe....

we are the most innocent here....more so even than the infidel....we are the "pig in the middle"

Posted by: Naseem

at December 29, 2005 6:42 AM

Infidel Pride,

What is the point in talking to them? They've already made their intentions known. They show us everyday how they will stop at no barbarity to achieve their goals. Naseem even comes off as a kinder, gentler Moslem but then when American provoked her, the nastiness comes pouring out about how she will buy his house for her children with an Islamic style bank loan. The venom spew was unmistakable. And the superiority complex was unmistakable.

We're in a fight for our lives now and we talk and talk while they do and do. Worse yet, they TELL us what they are going to do, and they do it. And we still talk. How long will it be now, a decade, a year, two weeks or tomorrow before roaming gangs of rapists start popping up on American streets with the police becoming too afraid to stand up to them, like in Norway and Sweden? We need to prepare ourselves, NOW. We need to set defensive plans in motion. We need to know how we will protect our families. Perhaps we all ned to get a gun. We definitely need to learn how to use one, or many. And we need to imagine ourselves protecting who and what we love so that when it comes into our neighborhoods, we won't stand there, drooling, wondering what happened. We'll be abled to act because we've already thought out the possibility of a real attack against us. I think the element of surprise works well for Moslems because when they join it together with absolute, merciless terror, most people can't believe what they are seeing and they freeze and are unable to do anything. We can't let that happen here.

Read the books that Robert and others here recommend and contemplate the consequences, and use this knowledge to spread the word to others. But most of all, use it to be prepared.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 29, 2005 7:02 AM

Isabella my dear,

You sound paranoid and very afraid.....
calm down ...deep breaths.

Not all muslims are like you say my dear, many in the west will sit with you while others will sit on the fence doing nothing harmful. The fringe are the unpredicitable ones....you leave them to the FBI & the police.

No point in gun training...you'll only end up killing people like infidel pride ..."I'm sorry I though he looked like a muslim because of his looks and colour" and then spend long time in jail....leave it to the experts the FBI and the Police...support them.

Enjoy the new year and keep breathing deeply.

Allah Hafiz

Posted by: Naseem

at December 29, 2005 7:37 AM

Naseem,

Your response to Amercian was very enlightening, a bit of a power trip that.

Anyway I have a daughter and a son, I don't expect them to have a peaceful life in Europe, that is not being paranoid, just realistic and yes I am afraid for them, I have at least had 40 years of excellent life, your religion will remove that chance from my children.

There is nothing good in your religion, nothing that I can see. It is a great mechanism for the rich and powerful to control the weak and the stupid, you can describe Mohammed as the perfect man, in that he worked out exactly how to go down to the most base instrincts of a man, killing, raping, slavery, stealing, assassination. Nothing about restraint, respect and controlling yourself, apart from some meaningless riturals to give the illusion of control. Your religion is a joke, a sick sad joke.

I pity and despise Muslims in equal messaure, I pity the weak ones, and despise the powerful and intelligent ones, those like Tariq Ramnden, its all about power and control.

I have changed my direction, I go on left wing sites to try to make the left see it, some places like Harrys Place already see it. Once they get it that Islam is the threat to civil liberty and is nothing more than a facist system of government then Islam will lose. The longer that takes the worse it will be however, but its starting, at last I see hope that Islam is being found out by the left.

So Naseem, I pity you, but also I hope that your husband is OK, and by the way, those 72 virgins don't exist, once he is dead there is nothing, no heaven no hell, no judgement, nothing, that may scare some, but it does not me, I don't need to cling to some sick faith to treat others with respect, as human beings, but I have come to the conclusion that treat others as you expect to be treated also means that after a while, if those that treat you badly continue in that direction then you too can treat them badly. I am sorry that it will come to that, but rather then see my daughter gang-raped by laughing Muslims and my sons throat slit I think it is required.

You live in Pakistan, did you know that I gave money to all of the natural disasters since 1980 where I was able to. But the Pakistani earthquake was the first time I did not, why, because Muslims have taught me how to hate...

Posted by: Daffersd

at December 29, 2005 8:26 AM

Naseem is a total flake what with her sob story of being persecuted as a Ahmediya muslim and being married to a husband who is supposedly recovering from terrible injuries from the devastating earthquake in Pakistan (does it seem plausible that someone having such a 'grave' problem would be whiling away her time on the internet to send us her mindless drivel). She's just a gadfly who has no intention of engaging in any serious discussion.

Posted by: Razdan

at December 29, 2005 9:43 AM

Moslems are always whining. They never stop, except when it's time to murder or to celebrate a murder.

DISLOYAL NYTIMES DISLOYAL WASHPOST DISLOYAL CHITRIB DISLOYAL LATIMES

Now that I think about it, in all my life I have never heard an Israeli Jew whine. I've heard many wail in grief, too many, but never whine.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at December 29, 2005 11:53 AM

Naseem:
I have a big problem with them, they hijack Islam, they hold 1.2 billion people to ransom....and then we have misplaced & misdirected infidel anger towards the innocent...that would be me.

Hijack? The Qu'ran specifically encourages and condones this behavior. So, Islam can't be hijacked. You'd be an innocent if you actually stood up and did something about it.
Nope, you sit back and expect us to believe that your heart goes out to all vitims, blah, blah, blah, not thinking we know you secretly enjoy what the jihadists are doing. You're weak Naseem, always have been, always will be because you have no idea or grasp of what real strength is, not in weapons, but in character.

We're angry at you Naseem because you and your people and the biggest butchers in the world. Your arrogance is astonishing considering that your prophet is a pedophile. Your arrogance is astonishing because the Muslim countries in this world are shitholes. Your arrogance is astonishing considering that soon, everyone will know, due to our efforts and like minded people throughout the world, that believeing in Santa Claus is more plausible than believeing Allah, that your religion is far below reprehensible even by a dogs standards.

It's pretty amusing that you can claim superiority (whether outright or cleverly implied) when your people had to create a religion to justify your peoples pathetic existence and psychopathic tendencies so many thousand of years ago. See how far your people have evolved Naseem?
You'll always be third class at best because Islam has made you a slave. You stopped thinking, questioning, searching for pretty much anything.
If you didn't have your arrogance and hatred at the center of your being,you'd be left with only your fear and self loathing. What scares you Naseem is you know that you are wrong. Or maybe you are one of them who hasn't evolved enough to grasp the term "civilized", either way, doesn't matter.
I'd respect you more if you just came out, spoke your hearts truth and said you wanted all infidels dead than play this "which personality is in control of the keyboard game."

We reap what we sow Naseem....I'd love to see what your harvest produces

Posted by: Wretched Simpleton

at December 29, 2005 11:53 AM

Isabella,
There are lots of things we can do. Most
important is to make other people understand
the threat. Everyone you convince is important.
I agree with RS that it is not a left/right fight,
or a racial fight, or a fight for Christianity,
or anything like that. The lines are clearly
mohammadan vs nonmohammadan.

Other than that, I believe that we should
reduce our oil consumption, and prepare for
war. Not much of a muslim demographic threat here
yet, so let's keep it that way. Acquaint yourself
with the basics of firearms. Don't be a Rambo,
just learn the basics and practice.

Check out Naseem on other threads, where she
says Israel should become Jiyzahstan (no, not
Jesustan, Jiyzah-stan) to secure peace, and how
Brahmin's are skulking plotters. A little more
subtle than ia786, but not much better. I wonder
what the next incarnation will be?

Infidel Pride,
Thanks for the compliments, but I've met
people who are much, much better than me. Most
mohammadans are easy targets though, their
skins are so thin that a tiny prick (no, that's
not a comment about my anatomy ;-) will pop it
and you see the true muslim. THAT is why I think
the insults must fly.

Ever notice how Christians just yawn or even laugh at the stuff that drives mobots to a murderous rage if done to them?

Posted by: American

at December 29, 2005 1:49 PM

DRUZE--

We may not be 'BETTER.' (So what?) The point here is that we will at least be ALIVE!!!!!!!

THAT is the most important thing. All other matters are secondary.

I will NOT let such killer-Zombies exterminate our people and civilization (if I can help it). Period.

p.s.-if you read my post carefully you would see why we WOULD STILL be better. Islam is the clear aggressor-- and mortal danger. We are therefore not ethically required to "tolerate" it in any way (at least on our soil).

Posted by: pythagoras

at December 29, 2005 4:19 PM

I have changed my direction, I go on left wing sites to try to make the left see it, some places like Harrys Place already see it.

Indeed they do, Daffersd, and it is great to see you there, having been a voice in the wilderness for a while. Slow but sure. The mills of God grind exceeding slow but exceeding small. Or, if you prefer Churchill:

"Keep buggering on."

Sound words. Worked for him. Keep at it.

Posted by: Interested

at December 29, 2005 7:09 PM

American,

Thanks. I had a wonderful lunch meeting today with a business associate and talked to him about what we discuss here. At first he looked at me with surprise but then as the conversation went on, so did the light bulb. He's willing to read up on it.

And Naseem dear,

Thanks so much for your obviously heartfelt concern. But no worries, sweetheart. My breathing is just fine. It's my aim that I need to work on. And you've inspired me, to take a trip down to my local NRA and use their shooting range to practice. Believe me, I'll be thinking of you, every second I'm there.

Lots of love,
Isabella

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 29, 2005 9:35 PM

Isabella

I was responding to those who are advocating that we have a civil debate w/ Mohammedan visitors to this site, and laying out the criteria under which that can be reasonably expected. I wasn't referring to Naseem - I've been lurking here for a while now, and noticed how her protestations of outrage at the fringe are accompanied by triumphalist boasts about taking over the world through outbreeding. In other words, she may be against a violent jihad, but is not against a demographic jihad. That is not the description of someone looking to make common ground. Also, her posts in other threads, like Muslims taking over Eurabia, Israel paying a Jizya for Pakistani troops to protect Israel, Brahmins being behind the murder of Sikh gurus, etc leave no doubt about her role as a provocateur.

I don't doubt the motives of the Mohammedans. I haven't read Robert's books, but as a Hindu from India, I did read how Mohammendan invaders massacred Hindus over 700 years - from 1000 to 1761. So I am fully aware of what they always were, and Paki terrorist activities against India have been on since 1947. Main reason I visited here is that - if they have been doing all this in India, US, Europe and Israel, what are they doing elsewhere? Then I read about the threats to the Danish cartoonists, the beheadings in Thailand and Indonesia, the confiscation of a body of a Hindu in Malaysia for burial since he ostensibly converted (who's to refute that anyway, since he is dead?), and the other great achievements of the Mohammedans.

What is new is the things that I've recently learnt about Islam - the most compelling of which is Taqqiya. If we inform the world about any one thing, it should be about this practice of disinformation and lying. Once this is out, those who verify and believe it will be immune to the propaganda of CAIR, PA, Adel al Fahd, et al.

The other striking thing I learnt - is the real history of Mohammed. Those w/ no idea would think that he was just another preacher like Christ, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. Not by a long shot! Particularly revealing was the line-up of his wives, and how he procured them. In India, earlier this year, there was a case of a Muslim woman who was raped by her father-in-law, and the village elders in that Muslim dominated village decreed that she was now the wife of the rapist, and that her lawful husband was her son. That floored me. But recently, when I read about how Mohammed got his son to divorce his wife so that he could marry her himself, that explained the whole thing to me, and convinced me that Islam is not a religion, it's just the worlds longest and largest ever cult.

Bottom line - I agree w/ you, and I'm glad that in this place, infidels of all hues and stripes are gathering. Like so many have said (although some on the Left pretend otherwise), this isn't a race issue. Show me one religion that Islam has been at peace w/. In the mid-east, they are not only in battle w/ the Jews, but are also in battle w/ Christians, Islamochristian denials notwithstanding. In Bangladesh, they are not only in battle w/ Hindus, but also w/ Buddhists (in Chittagong). In Malaysia and Indonesia, they target Chinese and Christians. And in Nigeria, well, you get the idea.

If X gets into a fight w/ A, X could be at fault or A could be at fault. If X gets into another fight w/ B, same thing. But after a while, if X gets into a fight w/ everyone X meets w/, one has to conclude that there is something wrong w/ X.

Posted by: Infidel Pride

at December 29, 2005 10:08 PM

"Islamochristian denials notwithstanding..."
-- from a posting immediately above

Nice to see that word getting around. Possibly it will make it into the O.E.D.

It has been used, with accuracy aforethought, for quite a while. Before others got the hang of it, some found it cause for criticism. One "Rupert" in Dearborn, objecting to something I had written (with the usual "blowhard" business), posted as follows a year ago:

"But [Hugh you "blowhard"] please, keep using words such as 'Islamochristian' to validate your paranoia. I got a chuckle out of that."

Posted by: Rupert at December 30, 2004 11:12 PM

Well, we'll see who has the last laugh. I think "Islamochristian" will enter the language. About "The New Duranty Times" -- keep on using it, on every conceivable occasion. "The Bandar Beacon" -- not sure. The others, past, passing, and to come -- we'll see.

Winning the war of words is important in winning the war of the worlds -- one with at least the semblance, and greater possibility, of sanity, and the other one.

Posted by: Hugh

at December 29, 2005 10:22 PM

Interested,

I think you have been doing great work on that site. I won't post that often, but just the odd thing. I like your approach on their with self-depreciating humour. D

Posted by: Daffersd

at December 30, 2005 3:17 AM

"DRUZE--

We may not be 'BETTER.' (So what?) The point here is that we will at least be ALIVE!!!!!!!"

I thought that one of the most essential parts of Western civilization was that we stand by our values even at the cost of death. Cato the Younger rather then surrender to tyranny and outlive the Roman Republic, and betray the People of Rome killed himself before Caeser could take him. He has been celebrated by those who favor democract since. Cato is not an isolated example. I also believe that all people are capable of redemption, including muslims. I also believe that the reason God created the Manjis and Rushdies was in order to set Islam in order, and so the Irshad Manjis, and the Salman Rushdies of the world should be supported by the West to help them reform Islam. Why would you want to lower yourself to the level of a terrorist, when there is another more peaceful, morale, and effective way to do it? Like Druzi, and Judaism your religion christianity calls for you to try to redeem, rather then kill the evil.

"THAT is the most important thing. All other matters are secondary.

I will NOT let such killer-Zombies exterminate our people and civilization (if I can help it). Period."

Nor do you have to, you can stop it be helping people like Irshad Manji turn the killer-zombie muslims into good honest citizens, like your own religion calls for.

"p.s.-if you read my post carefully you would see why we WOULD STILL be better. Islam is the clear aggressor-- and mortal danger. We are therefore not ethically required to "tolerate" it in any way (at least on our soil)."

We would not still be better, and the great heros of Western Civilization and Democracy would turn in their graves. Especially considering that if the police were to lay down the letter of the law to the Muslim Community imagine the exodus of muslims from every Western Country, and imagine the much lower rate of growth if the West's polygamy ban is enforced in it's muslim quarters.

Posted by: Druze

at December 30, 2005 5:14 AM

posted above:

'your religion christianity calls for you to try to redeem, rather then kill the evil.'

Ideally yes.
However, I believe there is such a thing as a righteous war.

If the Muslims keep pushing, they will face a righteous war...waged by grim, coldy calculating and determined Christians.
In which case we Christians will pray for the souls of those Muslims we are forced to kill.

After all, it would be silly of us Christians to allow ourselves to be slaughtered without resistance after Christ went to such trouble giving us the true faith.

Posted by: Mike_W

at December 30, 2005 8:47 AM

Infidel Pride,

Understood. And your post is X-cellent!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader

at December 30, 2005 11:15 PM

Naseem says "...don't forget I am Ahamadi.....I have problems of my own." I believe it. Any muslim who has "ham" in the middle of their tribal name (Ahamadi) is in trouble ;-)

Posted by: Bohemond_1069

at December 31, 2005 4:51 PM