Anyone who thinks the BNP are the answer to Islam in Britain should take note. They are neo-Nazis and Fascists with a veneer of respectability. At the moment it suits their purposes to oppose Islam, but that is a cover for racism.

As Granny W wisely said - everything Granny W says is wise - the BNP would prefer Yvonne Ridley, white and Muslim, to Ayan Hirsi Ali, black and apostate.

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 10:24 AM

I hear that david douche is offering Harvard two hundred bucks to set up a "Center for White Supremecist Dialog". (It has already been established that Harvard will sell out its academic integrity for cash. The "aryans" are simply haggling over the price)

Posted by: Infidel33 at December 30, 2005 10:53 AM

As with the biased charges against Le Pen, I'd like to see some evidence that the BNP is bad. All I hear are unfounded opinions and people parroting them.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 30, 2005 10:59 AM

"Islam and Fascism (or in this case Neo-Nazism) both offer that Collective, that Total Explanation, that Total Regulation. And if, as is shown here, one can throw in a shared hysterical antisemitism, that is one more unsavory link."

I believe that there is a lot of confusion between what is fascism and whether or not forms of rightwing extremism like nazism were (or not) fascist.

In my opinion (and in the opinion of others who know a lot more about the subject than I will ever know) the only fascist regime was that of Mussolini's. Ideologically, the two other regimes that come closer to Mussolini's were that of Franco and that of Salazar. Both were undoubtedly extreme-right, deeply nationalistic, but neither was "fascist". The only common ground that these failed regimes can ever find with Hitler's nazism is that all of them were anti-democratic extreme-right totalitarian dictatorships.

Nazism had a clear neo-pagan element (which was particularly visible by the ideology/"theology" within the SS organization, and in the forged history made up by Nazi "historians" to explain the claims that the "aryan" Germans had over their territories. Particularly hilarious was the fact that the only thing that they managed to prove was that during the times when Persians, Greeks, Romans and others prospered, the Germanic tribes were still living in little more than huts.

I lack the time to go into further detail, but I would like to add that I agree with Hugh when he says that the kind of people that would join neo-nazi groups is the same that would join the extremist branches of the Islamic ranks: angry, frustrated, bitter and in most cases ignorant people that want to be part of a "tribe" that makes them feel special. Islam - given the way it degrades all those non-Muslim - is the cherry on top of the cake.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 11:00 AM

Dr Pepper:

Le Pen is an idiot and I have been personally involved in arguments with members of the BNP. Both are clearly racist and anti-semitic. Some members of the BNP are linked to white supremacist Afrikander movements. More I will not say, but trust me on this: two wrongs do not make one good and you won't win the fight against Islamic supremacism by supporting what are clearly white-supremacist groups.

To someone who is on the outside - like myself - the Dutch, Austrian and the Belgian extreme-right are somewhat "tolerable".

The rest - and that includes the BNP - are nothing more than racist opportunistic ignorant white-trash.

Just to give you an idea, many of these guys supported the Palestinians for years simply because being pro-Palestianian means being anti-jewish. Now they are anti-Muslim because the crap is smelling closer to home, but have they changed their ideologies? Nope. All of them are still wining about how Jews control their countries, even though most of the countries involved have little or no Jews (since WWII). They can't think for themselves, and some of them are definitely dangerous.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 11:08 AM

Dr Pepper, take a look at this.

The BNP are the old National Front, a white supremacist party, re-packaged. One or two posters at this site seem to love them. Some of these posters are racist and have been banned. Some are just ignorant.

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 11:09 AM

Dr. Pepper,
Were you the kid who had everyone else do his
homework for him in high school?

Let me make it easy for you. G-O-O-G-L-E
is a good first step. Or try www.bnp.org.uk
That's THEIR web page. Their opinions. Go right
to the source.

People who dwell on their whiteness (or
blackness!) excessively raise red flags right
away.

Posted by: American at December 30, 2005 11:32 AM

Pepper, I produced some interesting quotes from Le Pen on the other thread. I'm interested in what you think old buddy.

Hugh, thank you for tackling this issue in so timely a manner after the accolades that were flowing to Le Pen yesterday.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 30, 2005 11:34 AM

Give the white supremacists credit where credit is due:

1) They don't have a national network of millions of buldings, each staffed with materials and instructors, expressly set up to preach hate.

2) They don't have a developed hegemonic ideology purpose-built to expand and reinforce its ranks.

3) They don't have a refined system of governance and legal jurisprudence at-the ready to replace civil governments, both free and otherwise.

4) They don't have have a proven 1,390 year track record of success and steady expansion.

5) They don't have 1.4 billion adherents.

6) They don't get tax subsidies or welfare just for being white supremacists.

DISLOYAL HARVARD DISLOYAL GEORGETOWN DISLOYAL USC DISLOYAL COLUMBIA

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 30, 2005 11:53 AM

I'm convinced now that non-proportional equivalence analysis is the worst possible form of stupidity.

A good first step towards stamping out this plague of subintellectualism would be to shut down all university departments, except for those teaching math/science/engineering curricula.

NYTIMES TREASON WASHPOST TREASON CHITRIB TREASON LATIMES TREASON

Everything's equivalent. If you don't believe this multicultural truism, just start with two sums of idential value, and divide by two and find out for yourself.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 30, 2005 12:00 PM

Hugh, do you have a reference for the article you mentioned? I'd like to read the whole thing.

"The best article on this subject is that of Ibn Warraq, who takes an essay by Umberto Eco, in which the latter attempts to construct a description of Fascism."

Posted by: kelley at December 30, 2005 12:01 PM

Cruzado, excellent post, there is a huge difference between the Nazi regime and Franco. I lived under Franco as a young man and found it anti-democratic, repressive and conservative, but not totalitarian in the Nazi and Communist sense.

Franco was definitely Christian, and in the end slowly took steps that has lead to the democratic Spain of today. Spain out grew Franco, the nazis only brought genocide and destruction for Germany.

Neo-Nazis, at least the ones I see in America, are not Christian, or conservative or nationalistic in the real sense. They are mere tribal paganism with a white supremacist bent. In that sense they have a lot in common with the Islamist who are supremacist of an Arabic bent. The major difference is that while Islam forms the vital part of the Jihadi core beliefs, Christianity never has been the core of any of the 20th century Nazi or Fascists movements. Mussolini was not a champion of Christianity and only used it to his end and Hitler persecuted the church, both in Germany and Poland a like.

Is the BNP a nationalistic organization with a conservative bent or is it a Neo-nazi group that eschews Christianity, I don't know enough on the subject to know?

Is Le Pen a nationalist with anti-Semitic beliefs like Franco or is he a Neo-Nazi?
From what I read about the Le Pen he appears to be the former. Still if he is like Franco he will be incapable running a modern economy, ditto for the BNP.

Nationalist like Franco can be worked with, Neo-Nazi's only hold a primitive allegiance to crude version of pagan white tribalism, something that is very dangerous and must be defeated at all cost.

We can survive someone like Franco, but Neo-Nazis spell the death of the Judeo-Christian West.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 12:46 PM

The essay by Ibn Warraq, taking fourteen features that, according to Umberto Eco, define (in his view) fascism, and seeing to what extent Islam as a belief-system exhibits those features, can be found at

http://www.secularislam.org/articles/facism.htm

The article is long and is most easily read if you print it out. And worth it. And worth distributing to others, especially those who, when they hear the word "fascism," react -- if the word is being used properly and not as an all-purpose term of abuse -- with alarm and disgust.

See what you think.

Posted by: Hugh at December 30, 2005 1:01 PM

Cruzado, I am interested, and sadly not surprised to hear that the BNP has links with the white supremacist Afrikander movements; I knew they had links with some of the German neo nazi groups, some of which spills over into football violence.
They are beyond nationalistic, they are very much into whiteness rather than nationality. I have never come across one who could be described as a christian. They are more likely to sneer at christians as a bunch of wet do-gooders, although they are the type that would expect a church funeral in preference to a humanist one, if you understand the attitude I am trying to describe. Dr John Sentamu the black Archbishop of York has said that we English should celebrate being English more, which is a good thing. However to the BNP he and his descendents could never be English because of his black skin.
From the BNP mission statement found on their website "The British National Party exists to secure a future for the indigenous peoples of these islands in the North Atlantic which have been our homeland for millennia. We use the term indigenous to describe the people whose ancestors were the earliest settlers here after the last great Ice Age and which have been complemented by the historic migrations from mainland Europe....of the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Norse and closely related kindred peoples..."
The website uses very mild language to the world, but when you hear a bunch of BNP supporters in the next bar of the pub, then you have less trouble reading between the lines of the manifesto. I can't name the establishment I would particularly recommend you eavesdropped within, for obvious reasons.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 30, 2005 1:22 PM

Hugh, this is one of your most important articles and I hope everyone takes a moment to copy it and send it out to others.

People nowadays bandy the word "fascist" about to the point where the original meaning has been taken out of the word and it is used as a simple perjorative for "right-winger." Fascism can be left or right wing. Everybody forgets the word socialism in National Socialism.

To the great question of the 20th Century, is communism fascism?, we must assent also. And just as communism and fascism were materialism expressed as politics, so is Islam materialism expressed as religion. All three are the direct result of making man into God or, to put it another way, of seeing man as God. Secularism cannot hold out against this error because it shares it.

Posted by: Rebecca JW at December 30, 2005 1:24 PM

Dr.Pepper

I wish i could link to my 10 years of memories. All those fights, taunts... the inferiority complex.

Posted by: Vikrant_Camberleykar at December 30, 2005 1:28 PM

It's unlikely that the neo-Nazi movement will grow to the size needed to become a major threat. I don't think very many people would care to tolerate such a (ghastly) thing. However, I do agree that Nazism's resurgence could potentially pose a serious problem for many countries including the United States.

Nazism, appalling as it is, needs to be attacked through the use of logic against its ideological components. Once the fallacies of its ideology can be exposed it should be possible to make short work of it.

One thing true cults virtually always have in common is the use of homicide to advance their ideologies. Human beings in the world's deadliest cults are utterly disposable (remember Jonestown, Guyana?). This characteristic is plainly evident particularly in Islam,Communism, and of course Nazism (which may have been inspired by Islam and Hitler's purported adulation of it). We may never know precisely how many people these cults have murdered. Maybe we don't want to know...

Whatever criticisms may be leveled against Christianity and Judeism, incidentally, one thing they have going for them is that human life in their ideologies is held as inviolable and each individual's life is never denigrated for the sake of ideology. Notice how many people migrate TO christianized nations and OUT of non-Christian or weakly-Christianized ones. People are attracted to societies where their lives have VALUE. Calling Judeo-Christianism a cult cannot hide this fact.

Notice that according to the ideological tenets of the world's major cults (notably Communism, Islam, and Nazism) people may be attacked and killed carte blanche by members of these groups for ideological purposes that are unrelated to self-defense. In our self-defense WE have the right to pulverize and destroy THEM.

If ideology really is more important that life it couldn't be proved anyway. No one needs to live in fear of such ruthless, idiotic and cowardly people. We can and must stand together to root out this particular enemy of civilization.

Posted by: pythagoras at December 30, 2005 1:40 PM

Hugh, I will read it completely thank you for providing it, looks very informative.

Granny wise words as always.

With an implacable enemy like Islam, we must make careful decisions choices and seek the broadest coalition/group to form an anti-Islamic front.

My point is that what should unites us first is the anti-islamic nature of different groups. If these groups are ant-Islamic in an opportunistic and temporary way them we can deal with that later.

First we must defeat Islam's current Jihad and Da'wa.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 1:55 PM

El Cid - we've been over this ground before, and we'll have to agree to differ.

The BNP are, as it were, beyond the pale. The only sensible approach to them is not to touch them with a barge pole. In fact I doubt if I could find a barge pole long enough not to touch Nick Griffin with.

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 2:06 PM

Granny Weatherwax:

http://www.jrnyquist.com/may14/an_assassination.htm

The "gentleman" that wrote the above was in some way linked to the murder of a (black) South African.

He also wrote this "historical" wonder http://www.white-history.com/

More I will not say because this site is surely monitored by people far more dangerous than the "gentleman" I mentioned (who as far as I know has been "shunned" by the leadership of the BNP because he got off easy because he collaborated with the South African police and snitched on his WN friends. See the type of people I am talking about?

"They are beyond nationalistic, they are very much into whiteness rather than nationality."

There is an interesting genetic study with a couple of years (I believe it was made by Dr Mishmar and his associates) which shows quite clearly that within an apparently caucasian population, non-white admixture is not directly linked with the colour of the skin. Considering that white Britons have (like most other Europeans) a few drops of African blood, anyone counting those drops as a means to quantify "whiteness" is obviously a certified idiot. But that is a whole diferent subject for a whole diferent site.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 2:08 PM

"Fascism can be left or right wing."

Fascism was an extreme-right movement with some socialism mixed into it, born in Italy, and that aimed to restore the might and the grandeur of Imperial Rome (which is why Mussolini decided to invade Ethiopia, of all places, to build a colonial empire).

"Everybody forgets the word socialism in National Socialism."

Nazism definitely had a socialism as a core element of the regime ideology. The State took care of the people, but fool was the worker who complained about anything.

Here is an interesting (and somewhat amusing) historical titbit: the sindicates demanded to have a public holiday for Worker's Day. Hitler gave them that holiday, and on the 2nd of May abolished the sindicates.

To compare National Socialism with Socialism is insane, but Stalinism definitely comes close to Nazism in many aspects, which is why I say that the extreme-right and the extreme-left are equally dangerous. The extreme-left might actually be more dangerous thanks to the post-war and post-colonial media stance that turns leftist radicals like Red Ken into some sort of Rainbow Warriors. Pathetic, but these are the days we live in.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 2:20 PM

"If these groups are ant-Islamic in an opportunistic and temporary way them we can deal with that later."

It took the world 12 years to fight Nazism, and 74 to fight Communism. Do not fight a monster by releasing another monster that will end up eating you.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 2:22 PM

Interesting that "Iran" is the Persian versian of "Aryan". Iran changed its name to Iran in 1935 to show support and solidarity with Hitler's Nazi Germany. Nothing new under the sun, eh?

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at December 30, 2005 2:43 PM

Cornelius,
Most of the quotes I saw on the other page would
make LePen look like a comparatively mild antisemite. Nothing I'd think French Jews would be
worried about apart from the fact that he doesn't
seem very bright (I'm being charitable). He doesn't
obsess about Jews, he's more concerned with
preserving France, which is wise. Anyone know his
stance on black Africans? Quite a few Africans
assimilated completely into French culture, I wonder
if he has a problem with them.

Perhaps I'm wrong, does anyone from France know better? I don't think one can expect any politician
to be a saint. But, for example, a quick perusal
of the BNP's own web site told me all I needed to know. Either LePen is better or his handlers are a
lot more savvy than those BNP clowns.

Posted by: American at December 30, 2005 3:04 PM

Interested, we can agree, the BNP is beyond the pale.

I don't support any contact with groups like the BNP. They exist, because the political parties are blind to Islam, now let's deal with them in the context of the Fight against Islam.

Co-opt or take away the legitimate issues that they have hijacked.

Attack the organization and it's leaders, expose their supremacist ideology to the light of truth, but hold your fire on the rank and file because they not all be racists and we need to win them with reason not hate.

Le Pen is another matter I hold my judgment on how best to deal or work with him

"Do not fight a monster by releasing another monster that will end up eating you."

So true!, but if two monsters are fighting it out do not attack any of them until the fighting is done. Pit one monster against the other.

I didn't think Franco was a monster, bad yes, but he did prevent Spain for becoming another USSR.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 3:05 PM

"but if two monsters are fighting it out do not attack any of them until the fighting is done. Pit one monster against the other."

According to Hugh's piece, they are joining ranks - not fighting it out. In any case, I want no association whatsoever with either "monster". It is hard enough as it is to convince the ordinary citizen that fighting an evil ideology like Islam is not "racism", let alone...

"I didn't think Franco was a monster, bad yes, but he did prevent Spain for becoming another USSR."

I place Salazar under a fairer light than Franco. Salazar at least died a poor man, so poor that he had to borrow money to repair his house. On the other hand, he was probably involved in the assassination of the general Humberto Delgado that tried to restore democracy in the late 50s. How can someone that wouldn't steal a penny be able to give the order to kill someone? Complex characters...

From an objective point of view, I usually say that the dictatorship was generally good for the country from 1926 up to 1945, and catastrophic (from a macroeconomic, political and educational level) from 1945 to 1974. Franco left Spain with viable industries, Salazar did not. To make things worse, his legacy over the educational system will take generations to heal.

Salazar tended to look down on Franco. If you live in Spain, "Canal História" made an excellent documentary about the relation between the two statesmen.

Posted by: cruzado at December 30, 2005 3:21 PM

It is hard enough as it is to convince the ordinary citizen that fighting an evil ideology like Islam is not "racism", let alone...

Any decent British posters, and many others, who see the BNP advocated on this site, will think that the site is racist. This is playing into the hands of those Muslims who cry racism whenever legitimate questions are raised about their religion.

Islam is not a race. Colour is a red herring.

"Canal História" ...

That barge pole thing again.

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 3:42 PM

There seems to be a lot of self-deception going on here, and not only on the part of the Aryan Nations if they really believe that Adolf Hitler was not a professed Christian. In fact Hitler was born a Catholic and remained one to his dying day ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941), and such elements of paganism and the occult that were present in National Socialism were introduced rather by Hitler's subordinate Heinrich Himmler (who also, however, modelled the SS on the Jesuit Order). In fact, Hitler believed himself to be a good Christian and that in persecuting the Jews he was merely doing God's will.

At a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926 he said: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."

In Mein Kampf he wrote: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

Hitler again emphasised the religious motives of his crusade against the Jews in a Reichstag speech in 1938, . "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Hitler never persecuted the Catholic church (which was at this time, of course, more or less as anti-semitic as he was). In fact, he had excellent relations with the Vatican during his reign right up to his final defeat (the Pope even sent him his personal congratulations when Hitler escaped the Von Stauffenberg assassination plot). He did persecute the Protestant churches because of their reluctance to go along with the Nazi philosophy, and even more he persecuted the Eastern Orthodox churches, when his armies pushed out of Germany's eastern borders, again because of the ancient enmity of the Catholic church towards them.

Hitler's relations with Islam were dictated by pragmatism rather than by any ideological sympathy. Why Islam should sympathise with Nazism is obvious, but the Nazis merely wanted to use that sympathy to recruit muslim soldiers and spies in "Islamic" theatres of war such as Bosnia and North Africa. Even Himmler said no more than that they (muslims) made good soldiers because of their belief that they would go straight to paradise if killed while fighting the infidel.

Posted by: Durandal at December 30, 2005 3:57 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Myatt

David Wulstan Myatt (born 1950), also known as Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt, is a British neo-Nazi and author of numerous pamphlets and articles advocating neo-Nazism, Islamism, occultism, and what he calls "The Numinous Way of Folk Culture." He was the first leader of the British National-Socialist Movement (NSM), two of whose members are serving life sentences for murder.

The Board of Deputies of British Jews has described the NSM as a "very small but very violent neo-Nazi group. Their whole programme is one of terrorism ... against Jews, against blacks and against Asians."

The Observer has called Myatt the "ideological heavyweight behind the ultra-violent British neo-Nazi gang Combat 18". In July 2000, the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight identified him as "the most ideologically driven nazi in Britain, preaching race war and terrorism."

Following his conversion to Islam in 1998, Myatt became an advocate of suicide attacks, which he calls "martyrdom operations," and expressed his support for Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. An April 2005 NATO workshop heard that Myatt has called on "all enemies of the Zionists to embrace the Jihad," in order to fight against Jews and the United States.

Myatt came to public attention in 1999 when a pamphlet he wrote, A Practical Guide to Aryan Revolution, described as a "detailed step-by-step guide for terrorist insurrection," was said by the BBC to have inspired David Copeland, an NSM member, who left nailbombs in areas frequented by London's black, Asian, and gay communities. Three people died and 129 were injured, several of them losing limbs.

Posted by: IceDragon at December 30, 2005 4:35 PM

"Neo-Nazis, at least the ones I see in America, are not Christian, or conservative or nationalistic in the real sense. Posted by el Cid"

Then you know nothing of the millions of Christians who belong to Militia Groups, Christian Identity, Southern Independence Party... etc.

"To the great question of the 20th Century, is communism fascism?, we must assent also. And just as communism and fascism were materialism expressed as politics, so is Islam materialism expressed as religion. All three are the direct result of making man into God or, to put it another way, of seeing man as God. Secularism cannot hold out against this error because it shares it.
Posted by: Rebecca JW"

And Christianity can't win in a battle for God, regardless of your opinion that Islam is Materialistic, it is indeed and ideology fired by religious fanaticism and a belief that the Muslim is the elect of God.

There are no winners in the battle for God, especially with Muslims outnumbering and outbreeding Christians, a trend that can't be reversed. The only hope for the future is that Reason will triumph, and Reason (secularism) is the biggest enemy of Islam...and apparently all religions.For there comes a point when the protagonists of belief, temporarily abandon their ritual warfare and unite against a common enemy, and that common enemy is the protagonists of Reason. Muslim authorities and the muslim follower, fear and hate with a passion the unbeliever (the secularist, the man of reason, the atheist if you wish) more than they hate and fear the Jew and Christian, and it's always been that way.

Seems to me Rebecca dear, that at least on one issue, at one touch point you are in alliance with the Muslim.

PS Rebecca do read Robert Dreyfuss', The Devil's Game.

Posted by: Nariz at December 30, 2005 5:24 PM

There is no extreme right . . . . fascism was derived from Marx and Engle by Mussolini, copied by Hitler . . . . .the right-wing myth was created by lefties to distance themselves from Fascists. Remember the first half of the 20th century . . . a large number of the liberal elites were very sympathetic to the likes of Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Chairman Mau. Winston Churchill had their number, but not FDR, MacKenzie King and the other liberal rabble of the day.
Some links to some great reads on Mussolini, Hitler and the modern Left.

http://jonjayray.batcave.net/musso.html

http://jonjayray.batcave.net/hitler.html

Posted by: RightWinger at December 30, 2005 5:30 PM

This appears to be site Hugh references:

http://www.aryan-nations.org/

I think it's important reading; they certainly can't be faulted for deception.

Here's the full "article" from which Hugh drew one of the snippets.

Bismillah ar-Rahmaan ar-Raheem

What Is Aryan Islam?

I should make clear that when I talk about "Aryan Islam", there is only ONE Islam. And that is the Islam of the Qur'an and Sunnah, of obeying Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam). There can be no true Islam based upon 'asabiyyah or any thing which goes against Qur'an and Sunnah. And there can be no "Islam" which does not accept either the fundamentals of Islamic belief or the practices a Muslim is obligated to fulfill.

When speaking of Aryan Islam, I'm referring to the spiritual and intellectual movement of those idealistic Aryan youth who embrace the TRUE Islam of the Qur'an and Sunnah. They include those who join or support the honorable warriors of Islam, the Mujahideen. We are an increasing number and can't be dismissed as "race-traitors" or any other labels attached to us by those who don't practice the TRUE National Socialism of honor and nobility.

Such dishonorable ranting oppose our TRUE Aryan ethos, gives a bad name to the noble weltanschauung of National Socialism, and will surely lead many Aryan Muslims to lose the pride in their identity they should possess, when such dishonorable individuals who claim to represent our racial values accept the propaganda of the Zionists and yehudi shaitaan.

The attack against us Aryan Muslims coming from the so-called "White Nationalists" is a sickening phenomenon. The tendency to attack fellow Aryans with such zeal and vigor is unprecedented in all history. Especially considering the fact we uphold many of the same values and possess a common enemy.

They completely ignore history when it comes to the Third Reich. The alliance between Muslims and National Socialists dating back to this time which leading officials like Himmler established is well-documented and anyone who cares to know more about it should do some research on the Internet since there is a treasure trove of information in this regard.

And they completely ignore the fact that great Aryan heroes like Dr. Omar Amin von Leers, Ahmed Huber and Abdul-Aziz Ibn Myatt - men who have accomplished much more than these mental perverts could ever dream - embraced Islam and helped to formulate the alliance.

They care more about remaining true to this decadent, materialist, hedonist, consumer-capitalist, jew-controlled "civilization" of the West than they are standing up for the Aryan race.

This represents a clear disease of the heart and mind that so many Aryans remain conditioned to jewish myths and propaganda and social engineering even though they might claim to oppose them. They are hypocrites and mental perverts of the worse kind, as they so blatantly oppose our Aryan ethos while claiming to be "White Nationalists". They are phony, hypocrite liars who still have a far way to go until they realize TRUE National Socialism and can call themselves with the noble term Aryan.

Aryan Islam represents those common values which both Aryans and Muslims uphold - or rather should uphold if they remain true to their ethos. So it is based on the values contained in both the Aryan and Islamic ethos. The similarities between the two systems are more numerous than the differences. Together they converge to make a firm, lasting foundation for an alliance based on honor and mutual respect....

If National Socialists are serious about this struggle against the jew and their minions, and to finally make the 14 WORDS a reality, then all MUST reject the Zionist propaganda regarding Islam and the Muslims. It is essential they realize the jews are the mortal enemy of the Aryan race, for they are Culture Destroyers who exist as parasites sucking the life-blood out of the goyim nations. They are the spawn of Shaitaan who are his foremost allies and do his bidding on earth.

Are we up to the challenge?

24 Ramadan 1426 / 27 October 2005 / 116yf

By the way, the "14 WORDS" are "we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."

Posted by: kamala at December 30, 2005 5:34 PM

Hitler on Christianity

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew." (July 11-12, 1941)

"The law of natural selection justifies …incessant struggle by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure." (October 10, 1941)

"The best thing would be to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually myths will crumble. …Observe, by the way, that, as a corollary, the Mussulman was promised a paradise peopled with houris, where wine flowed in streams –a real earthly paradise. The Christians on the other hand, declare themselves satisfied if after their death they are allowed to sing Hallelujahs! …Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that’s why its structure will collapse." (October 14, 1941)

"The reason the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilization by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society." (October 19, 1941)

"I can imagine being enthusiastic about the paradise of Mahomet, but as for the insipid paradise of the Christians! …Christianity is an invention of sick brains." (December 13, 1941)

"As soon as the idea was introduced that all men are equal before God, (the ancient) world was bound to collapse." (December 14, 1941)

"Hitler’s Table Talk; 1941-1944" translated by N. Cameron and R.H. Stevens, Enigma Books (1953)

Posted by: Rebecca JW at December 30, 2005 6:23 PM

Nariz,

Secularism is the greatest aider and abettor of Islam on the planet.
You have been reading too much Islamic propaganda of you think otherwise.
You quoted a Muslim author the othe day (forgotten his name)who apparently wrote a treatise describing secularism as the greatest threat to Islam.
Lol, haven't you read enough about Islam to know that it is invariably the opposite of what they say that is the truth?

LOL...Muslims just LOVE you guys.

Can't you see that they are preying on all the weaknesss inherent in secular society...the modern Tower of Babel?

Secular Western society is indeed like a rabbit caught in the headlights of Islam.
No wonder..there are a million different voices all pushing a million different agendas, all advising different reactions to the threat.

Posted by: Mike_W at December 30, 2005 6:27 PM

Durandal, "Hitler never persecuted the Catholic church", nonsense, tell that to the hundreds of Polish Catholic priests who died in Auschwitz. my wife's uncle being one if them, and the destruction of Catholic churches in Poland.

Why should anyone use Mien Knopf as a source? Hitler was a master manipulator and propagandist, reference to Christianity was probably done solely influence Catholic public opinion.

"Hitler believed himself to be a good Christian", so what, his life philosophy was anything but Christian.

"such elements of paganism and the occult that were present in National Socialism were introduced rather by Hitler's subordinate Heinrich Himmler", did he not provide a lot of the Ideological underpinnings of Nazism.

"modelled the SS on the Jesuit Order", are you trying to make a negative reference to the work of the Jesuits?

cruzado, my reference to monsters was not well expressed, I meant that we should focus on Islam because it is the immediate threat.

Interested, perhaps you are right we should be careful if we reference the BNP we can not afford to alienate visitors tom this site and I don't support the BNP.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 7:24 PM

Aryan Nations is largely a prison based phenomenon: white guys who band together in prison for protection. Gangs pretty much run prisons and they are all race based. Islam is of course, and unfortunately, very active among black inmates. A sense of understanding and desire to cooperate between Aryan Nations and Muslims probably has its origins in prison.

Outside of prison and ex-convicts, Aryan Nations is a very minor phenomenon in the U.S. The spread of Islam among already violence prone inmates in U.S. prisons is a serious problem IMHO.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at December 30, 2005 7:35 PM

Why should anyone use Mien Knopf as a source?

Well Hitler was rather buttoned up - ask his Knopfloch, Eva Braun.

You mean "Mein Kampf", I think. Had he stuck to buttons, preferably chocolate or pantomime ones, history would have been a lot nicer.

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 7:37 PM

American,

Yes, there are worse bigots than Le Pen out there, but he certainly qualifies.

The prospect of Le Pen becoming the principle bulwark against Islam in France is a recipe for probable failure. It will put a contextual stench on the anti-Islamic cause, play in the hands of the pro-Muslim Left and discredit the entire enterprise as a manifestation of Right-wing Xenophobia.

The only thing worse would be no bulwark at all.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 30, 2005 8:50 PM

Cornelius,

Did you see my reply I posted for you in the "Sarkozy calls for discrimination" thread in Dhimmi Watch?

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 30, 2005 8:56 PM

Nariz

I am a true philosophical (as opposed to scientific) sceptic, and that philosophy leads me unavoidably to religious agnosticism rather than to complete atheism. Nevertheless, I am, like you, a secularist, and also, I hope, a man of reason, and I agree with you that we are seen as the common enemy of all religious ideologies with universal pretensions and ambitions. It is a fact that until the recent explosion in Jihadist violence against the West, the Catholic church actually saw Islam as a natural ally in the fight against rising secularism in the world and sought to join forces with it in stemming the tide (apparently this "collaboration" was a little one sided - the muslims got to build a huge mosque in Rome which rivals St Peter's, but Catholics in Muslim countries continued to be oppressed the same as they were before). At the same time the Vatican was striving vigorously to revive the Holy Roman Empire in Europe - that is, a "Christian", or at least Catholic dominated, Empire. I hope that Catholicism has genuinely progressed beyond persecuting - even, of course, unto burning at the stake - those who cannot subscribe to its ideology (and, if it has, then it is solely due to the constraining efforts of those secularists from the Enlightenment on, whom the Church despises), and that it now accepts the principle of freedom of conscience for all. Its appalling historical record, however, which is every bit a rival to Islam's, will always give me cause for suspicion. With Islam, however, there is no cause to doubt - under the World Caliphate there will be no opportunity of dhimmitude for you and I, it will be straight under the scimitar for the both of us.

Posted by: Durandal at December 30, 2005 8:57 PM

Interested,

Your anti-BNP site you linked has stories like this:

" A BURNLEY British National Party councillor has been charged with racially abusing a group of Asians in the town centre.

"...A Lancashire Police spokeswoman said: "He was arrested in Hammerton Street at 2.30am on November 20 and was charged at 7pm on the same day with a section four racially aggravated public order offence and released on bail...

"It is alleged he has shouted to a group of Asian males and he will be appearing at Burnley magistrates."

So this BNP guy shouted some harsh words at some "Asians". Isn't the mainstream media term "Asians" a politically correct way of avoiding saying "Muslims"? If he shouted harsh words at some Muslims, is that so bad? The story doesn't say why he shouted, or if they were Muslims.

Other "news" stories on that site seem to mix together BNP with other neo-Nazi types (or neo-Nazi websites), without proving any connections.

This kind of yellow journalism is hardly what measures up as "evidence".

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 30, 2005 9:04 PM

cruzado, nothing that you have posted so far is evidence that the BNP is bad; it's just rumor, unsubstantiated by evidence, heated up with apparently biased emotion.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 30, 2005 9:07 PM

American, as I said, I haven't come across anything that proves that the BNP is bad; just apparently biased opinions and opinions parroted by others who apparently don't have any evidence. ("I haven't come across" = I've been Googling, in addition to reading the occasional unsubstantiated opinions of people here against BNP, which I've seen for many months.)

I'm still waiting for evidence on Le Pen and the BNP. Simply repeating that they are bad is not evidence.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 30, 2005 9:09 PM

Interested, I visited the site you posted about the BNP.

This caught my eye," Muslims speak over BNP slurs"
" THE CHAIRMAN of the Solihull Muslim Community Association (SMCA) has said the British National Party dragged up old news for a recent political flyer."

"Earlier this week the BNP posted leaflets through borough households detailing the party's opposition against the building of a mosque in Solihull.

"Dr Ghannam also insisted that a mosque wasn't crucial but that Solihull's 10,000 Muslims are in need of a community centre."

Gee, what are they meeting about? Jihad perhaps?

"There are 32 halls in Solihull but they are all hired out, we need our own place. The Conservatives have a base, Labour has a base and that is what we need. If anybody knows of a place we would like to know" he said."

Why do they need a base? a Muslim Community Association?

Stop the BNP, is a very effective activist site. It appears that a lot of money has been spent. If a fraction of that energy were applied to stopping the invasion of Islam then England would be saved.

What a waste of energy against a enemy that has much smaller chance of coming to power, then Islam.

Interested, what if a website like "Stop Islam" existed in England with the same money and backing as "Stop BNP".. or is that too racist.

Who else in Solihull are acting to stop the so-called Muslim Community Association from getting their base? If only the BNP, then that is doubly sad, once because it let's them hijack a valid issue and twice because no other party is there to address the problem.

Interested, as to Mien Knopf... this what happens when I type without looking and post without proofing,

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 9:24 PM

Dr Pepper, how much "proof" do you need, when you're talking about a party that - read this carefully- only allows white people to join?

I'll say that again. It only allows white people to join.

Only. White. People. Only. White. People.

Are you stupid or what?

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 9:27 PM

El Cid - are you stupid too? It only allows white people to join. Duh!

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 9:29 PM

El Cid, sorry for my intemperate post. That was uncalled for.

The BNP is to me as a red rag to a bull. And I'm a Taurus. Not that I believe in star signs...

Posted by: Interested at December 30, 2005 10:46 PM

Interested, that's not my point,

They only let white people join, ok with my skin, I won't join,

I wouldn't want to join.

I also would not join an organization that would not let me, a Christian join, it's called Islam.

Interested, stupidity would be to waste energy stopping BNP, when Islam is the one with the knife at your throat.

You can best stop the BNP by stopping Islam!

By the way what do you have against white people, I'm not white and have nothing against anyone of any color.

Would you be so upset if the group were only for brown or red people, when my son went to University he was badgered to join a Latino only student organization, no whites could join, There were black and Asian organization on campus but not one white organization. Isn't that racist? no white's allowed? No it's totally accepted.

This is Hypocrisy! That's the problem I have with the website you posted, all this energy to stop hate, that's good, but what about the energy to stop all hate, especially against whites.

I'll bet that if a bunch of Asians (why do you not use Muslims, it's very confusing, when I hear that I think of Chinese) yelled " hey you nasty whites" would they receive the jail sentence as the poor saps who I read about in England.

Websites, like stop BNP probably create more BNP members then they discourage, not informing the laws equally, more punishment against whites then Asians, also encourages the rise of the BNP.

I'm not stupid, stop the rise of groups like the BNP by addressing the issues and by stopping Islam.

Again, if you want to stop the BNP, stop Islam! Address the inequality of the hate laws in your country.

One thing I like about America is there are few hate laws, one can say what one wants, make a fool of oneself, be a racist in word and be shunned for it, no one will put you in jail unless you assault somebody or use physical violence.

Hate laws are pure hypocrisy if not enforced equally, I have found few cases of Asians charged for street hate crimes.

Stupidity is to believe in a site like Stop the BNP and not also stop Islam.

Interested you and I are on the same side, I just feel that if things don't change in England you are only feeding the BNP and the Islamist at the same time.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 11:24 PM

Interested, no harm done I'm a Taurus too. I understand about red flags.

Posted by: El Cid at December 30, 2005 11:35 PM

Pepper,

I did. I appreciate your forthrightness on the "holocaust was a detail" comment.

I noticed there was nothing about the B'nai B'rith comment.

Certainly the interview betrayed a sympathy for Israel on the part of Le Pen. This was encouraging, for what it's worth.

But it doesn't change the overall perception, at least in my mind. For example, Is Le Pen opposed to all immigrants or just Muslims? This is a very pertinant question.

Listen buddy, I've commented many times on the political symmetry between us. I presume we both agree that Robert and Hugh's hopes to incorporate the Left into a united front against Islam is highly problematic and in the end very unlikely.

Conversely, to hold up the far Right as the legitimate vanguard for the anti-Islamic cause is also problematic...in terms of both tactical wisdom and in the broader scope of philosophical and political ethicism.

But in the interests of fairness, I'll try to keep an open mind about Le Pen and will read up on his policy positions before going any further in my criticism.

I hope you'll do the same bro...before any further endorsements.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 30, 2005 11:35 PM

Cornelius,

What was the B'nai B'rith comment?

I'm always open to any evidence about Le Pen, one way or the other.

An interesting link about Nick Griffin, Chairman of the BNP, concerning his alleged anti-Semitism:

http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/004615.html

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 12:23 AM

I presume we both agree that Robert and Hugh's hopes to incorporate the Left into a united front against Islam is highly problematic and in the end very unlikely.
- Cornelius

With the leadership, yes. However, as this alliance between the Racist Groups and the Islamic racists becomes obvious, you are likely to see more rank and file Liberals, if not leftists, join in the Jihad against Islam. Similar to a lot of former international leftists, like Christopher Hitchens, breaking away from the Left when the Left kept backing Saddam in spite of his genocidal past becoming more and more exposed.

Also, a number of people, otherwise Liberal, have joined in this fight because things that would appall them in the West - racism, misogyny, religious fanaticism, homophobia and all the rest - are so richly embedded in Islam that it exceeds their worst parodies of the above qualities when juxtaposed on Conservatives.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at December 31, 2005 1:09 AM

By the way what do you have against white people...

Nothing - that is completely missing the point. To be against white only political parties is not to be against white people. The parallel you cite of Latino student organisations is spurious. Those organisations are not aiming to be in government. A whites only political party that wants to run the country is problematic. Surely you can see that?

Hate laws are pure hypocrisy if not enforced equally, I have found few cases of Asians charged for street hate crimes.

Anti-racist legislation does apply to all races, including whites. Moreover, 'Asians' in the UK means people from India and Pakistan, not Chinese etc. This is a common misunderstanding about the UK on the part of Americans. One of many.

Dr Pepper, do you seriously think that those weasel words of Nick Griffin mean that he is no longer anti-Semitic?

And it is equally true that assorted Zionists – particularly around President Bush—played a key role both in pushing for that invasion and in telling the lies that created a degree of public support for it... But while this was clearly a key reason behind the decision of various Jewish media bosses to back the invasion, it does not automatically prove that it was the real, or the only, reason for it.”

Nothing to worry about here at all. He's not anti-Semitic - it's the Jewish lobby he doesn't like. If those pesky Jews just stopped being so influential nobody would have a problem with them.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 2:36 AM

El Cid,

I also spent time in Spain as a child, and was there right before Franco died. You are right. Spanish Falangism was authoritarian but was not totalitarian. Although some Falangists flirted with Mussolini style Fascism, Franco went out of his way to suppress this.

Not only was Franco a devout traditionalist Catholic, he was also quite proud of his Sephardic ancestry and both Franco and Bahamonde are common Jewish (Marrano) surnames in Spain.

The only time Franco met Hitler (in a train station on the French side of the border, since he didn't wan't Hitler to set foot in Spain), Franco kept Hitler waiting for over an hour. This intentional breach of protocol was to show his personal disdain for Nazism.

Despite the Falange's Civil War debt to Germany and Italy, Franco resisted the Führer's threats and did not permit the Wehrmacht to enter Spain to carry out Hitler's plan to close the Mediterranean to Allied shipping.

"tens of thousands of Jews were saved from Nazi ovens by the personal intervention of an unlikely protector. Spain's Generalissimo Franco, in so many other respects a wartime collaborator of Adolf Hitler. 'I have absolute proof that Franco saved more than 60,000 Jews during World War II,' says Rabbi Chaim Lipscitz of Brooklyn's Torah Vodaath and Mesitva rabbinical seminary." Newsweek, March 2, 1970

"However general history may judge him, in Jewish history, he shall certainly occupy a special place... Jews should honor and bless the memory of this great benefactor of the Jewish people...who neither sought nor reaped any benefit from what he did."
The American Sephardi Journal of the Sephardic Studies Program of Yeshiva University, volume IX, 1978.

"Generalissimo Franco is highly regarded by Jews; during the worst days of World War II, when pressures from Hitler were at their heaviest, Franco refused to issue anti-Jewish edicts and instead provided a sanctuary, never violated, for Jews who managed to make it to Spain. Many thousands of Jews owe their lives to Franco, and this is not forgotten." Iberia, page 547, by James Michener

"The War Emergency Conference extends its gratitude to the Holy See and to the Governments of Sweden, Switzerland, and Spain... for the protection they offered under difficult conditions to the persecuted Jews of Hungary..." Resolutions of the War Emergency Conference of the World Jewish Congress, Atlantic City, New Jersey, November 26-30, 1944

"During the height of Hitler's blood baths, upwards of 60,000 Jews had been saved by the generosity of Spanish authorities." Rep. Abraham Multer, Congressional Record, January 24, 1950

see also: http://hitlerstoppedbyfranco.com/franco_jews.htm

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 31, 2005 3:01 AM

Durandal,

Your belief that Hitler never persecuted the Catholic Church is bizarre. In 1936, the Pope issued an encyclical called "Mit Brennender Sorge" absolutely condemning Nazism as a pagan anti-Christian ideology.

In a move unique for the Church, this encyclical was issued in German, not in Latin, and ordered to be read from every pulpit in Germany. Although issued by Pope Pius XI, the author was Vatican Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli who would become Pope in 1939 as Pius XII.

Nazi reaction to the encyclical was immediate. A formal protest was sent from Berlin to Rome, and equally swiftly rejected by Cardinal Pacelli. An enraged Hitler and Goebbels cranked up the propaganda machine and once more dozens of clerics found themselves arraigned on the hoary old charges of immorality and ‘slandering’ the Nazi state.

Gestapo units were mobilised to find which presses had produced the encyclical: 12 were confiscated and the editors arrested. In one parish, Essen in the diocese of Oldenburg, seven girls were arrested inside the church as they handed out copies of Mit brennender Sorge after the Palm Sunday service.

While the Holy See’s Secretary of State in the 1930s, Pacelli lodged nearly 60 formal protests with the Nazis over their treatment of the Jews. In 1938, Pacelli had spoken at the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris against the Nazi “pagan cult of race,” as well as the “vile criminal actions” and “iniquitous violence” of the Nazi leadership.

Within a month of the Nazis taking power, Hermann Goering banned all Catholic newspapers in Cologne and the Rhineland. By 1938 all Catholic schools had been taken over by the state.

In 1939, immediately after the death of Pius IX, the German government issued a veiled warning to the College of Cardinals not to elect Pacelli as he was known to be an enemy of Nazism. In the very first encyclical of his papacy, issued on October 20, 1939 (Summi Pontificatus), Pius XII warned of the dictators of Europe – “an ever-increasing host of Christ’s enemies” – and called for St. Paul’s vision of world that was neither Gentile or Jew. The Gestapo labeled the encyclical a direct attack, while the French and British had copies printed and dropped by air over Germany.

Hitler so hated and feared Pope Pius XII that he even plotted to have the Pope kidnapped or killed.

At this Pope’s death in 1958, then Israeli representative to the United Nations, Golda Meir, said on the floor of the General Assembly: “During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and commiserate with the victims.”

After Jews, the second largest number of religious identity of Death Camp victims is Catholics. Saint Maximilian Kolbe is just one example. Unlike the Protestant and Evangelical Churches, the Catholic Church could not be controlled by the State. That alone was enough to make it a target.

While the scale of Christian persecution cannot be compared to the Jewish Holocaust of 1941-1945, although in Poland in may come close, the ultimate destruction of Christianity was one of the Nazis clearly stated aims. In Mein Kampf, Hitler made his contempt for the ‘slave’ ideology of Christianity and its Jewish roots perfectly clear.

Nazi paganism reduced Catholics to an almost identical kind of Dhimmitude as does Islam.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 31, 2005 3:30 AM

"I'm still waiting for evidence on Le Pen and the BNP. Simply repeating that they are bad is not evidence."

Dr Pepper, what would you accept as evidence? In a court of law the statements of reliable eye witnesses to BNP supporters acting in a racist and unacceptable manner would be valid. We cannot give our evidence here under oath, not even in the form of an affidavit, but you have, on this thread alone three citizens of the United Kingdom, Interested, Vikrant and myself, who have spoken of our experiences with the BNP. If the accounts of reliable eye witnesses, on the ground, are insufficient evidence for you then I doubt that you will be convinced.
Time spent going round in circles about the BNP is taking me away from more worthwhile things concerning Islam so you will forgive me if I get back to them.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 4:20 AM

Hitler never persecuted the Catholic church (which was at this time, of course, more or less as anti-semitic as he was).
Posted by: Durandal

You sure have a warped education regarding Hitler and the Catholic church.

Hiltler raised over 1200 churches to the ground, stole their artifacts, tossed over 800 priests into labor camps where they died.

The Catholic church is the ONLY church where hitlers ss men we not able to infiltrate it's inner workings.

You really need to re-examine your education regarding the catholic church and just what Pope Pius did during that time.

Try avoid those anti Catholic leftist BS sites.

The Church saved countless thousands of Jews, it was an underground railroad of sorts and they paid dearly when they were caught.

Whoever taught you the crap you posted above should be ashamed of themselves.
I hope you spend some time to learn the truth, there are a few good sites which have well doccumented information.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at December 31, 2005 4:45 AM

the Catholic church actually saw Islam as a natural ally

Posted by: Durandal

Where in the world do you get this crap from?

The Catholic church petitioned 3 crusades against the Muhammadan crusades to retake the holylands.
They were not ever, at any time "allies" with the Muhammadans.

Please let us all know what books you are reading. I hope you aren't getting all this crap from radio Islam. It sure does sound like the stuff they publish.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at December 31, 2005 4:56 AM

Posted by: Provoslavni: Your history is correct.

My great grandfather on my mothers side, a Polish Catholic survived one of those camps. Besides him and my grandfather, his son, all of their family was murdered. Hundreds of relatives, their houses, farms, posessions gone forever. Our history wiped out forever. On my father side, my grandfather alone survived the great famine in Ukraine, everyone else starved or murdered. He escaped to the USA, Chicago. His entire family and history also wiped out.

This Durandal person hasn't a clue about history it seems. I suspect he's a troll.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at December 31, 2005 5:16 AM

Mullahmasher,

Thanks for the kind words. It seems that Anti-Catholic and Anti-Christian bigotry is the only politically-correct prejudice allowed today. There is a real danger of revived fascism/nazism in the US and Europe and it is from the Left NOT the Right.

Posted by: Provoslavni at December 31, 2005 6:03 AM

Pepper,

Le Pen's comment on the B,nai B'rith is on my original posting on the DW thread about Sarkozy.

Your BNP link was not terribly reassurring. There seemed to be an undercurrent of Jewish stereotyping in the (non bold-faced) text...e.g., referring to "selected Zionists" in the US Admin. supporting the removal of Saddam.

This is the standard bilge one hears from the Muslims and the Left. Isn't it possible that Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Pearl were motivated primarliy by their concerns as Americans over US security? Why is it assumed that just because of their Jewish backround, they are Zionists doing the bidding of the Israeli gov't?

Infidel Pride,

Listen to your own words. Chris Hitchens DEFECTED from the Left over these matters. There was no place for him there anymore. His defection is hardly an endorsement of Left-wing enlightenment.

Anyway, for the sake of freedom, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Interested: "Anti-racist legislation does apply to all races, including whites."

Then why is it that anti-Muslim sentiments expressed by the average Brit is often prosecuted, but the most virulent anti-semitism being spewed in the mosques of England is not?

I would hope you realize the "anti-racist" legislation, "hate-crime" legislation (as it is called here in the States) and most insidious of all, "religious vilification laws"...are a form of thought policing designed mainly to protect the sensibilities of minorities by silencing public discourse.

It's a complex issue that should be approached with circumspection. We certainly can't tolerate calls for genocide. But neither can we arbitrarily constrict the parameters of acceptable speech so much so that an honest exposition of the issues, cultures and ideologies of the day becomes impossible...which is exactly what has occurred in Sweden, parts of Australia, France & Italy (witness the respective cases against Oriana)...and is threatening to come to pass in your own UK with the impending passage of absurd and archaic laws prohibiting criticism of religion.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 10:55 AM

Then why is it that anti-Muslim sentiments expressed by the average Brit is often prosecuted

It isn't.

but the most virulent anti-semitism being spewed in the mosques of England is not?

It is. Sheikh Faisal - nine years then deportation.

In fact currently Jews and Sikhs, being defined as races are protected by law from incitement to racial hatred. Muslims, Hindus and Christians are not. A bill to change this has been thoroughy mauled and de-fanged in the House of Lords.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 11:20 AM

Interested,

I read earlier this year about a Brit who was prosecuted for a remark made to a Muslim neighbor. I'll try to google it.

Meanwhile, is Faisal the first? The only?

Finally, do you actually support the law that was "thoroughly mauled and defanged in the House of Lords?"

Under such legislation, you could be prosecuted for pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 11:28 AM

"Similar to a lot of former international leftists, like Christopher Hitchens, breaking away from the Left when the Left kept backing Saddam"

A "lot"? Hitchens is unique (well, not quite unique -- we have one other like him: David Horowitz).

Great, we have two. That does not amount to "a lot".

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 11:35 AM

I read earlier this year about a Brit who was prosecuted for a remark made to a Muslim neighbor. I'll try to google it.

Yes, I remember that case. However, the idea that people are regularly being prosecuted for expressing anti-Muslim sentiments is absurd. There is no legislation that they could be prosecuted under, other than public order offences. Public order offences should be prosecuted.

Of course I don't support the proposed relgious hatred legislation. I have argued many times against it on this site. It has, as I said, received a severe mauling in the House of Lords and is a shadow of its former self.

Under such legislation, you could be prosecuted for pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile.

Very unlikely in its current (proposed) form. However, the very vagueness of legislation of this kind means that people may be prone to self-censorship, and that is dangerous.

Very few prosecutions have been brought under legislation against incitement to racial hatred.

Cornelius, I share you views on Islam, but I think it's important, if you are making statements about the UK, to get your facts right.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 11:50 AM

Granny,

"Dr Pepper, what would you accept as evidence? In a court of law the statements of reliable eye witnesses to BNP supporters acting in a racist and unacceptable manner would be valid."

There's more in between the stark black-white Either/Or you proffer. The kind of evidence I would like to see (I'm not asking for evidence that will strike me with Absolute Certitude like a lightning bolt at the instant I read it) is, simply, the kind of evidence about Islam Robert & Co. have posted here every day for weeks, months, years, by the bushel-full.

Someone just telling me he has experienced racism by "BNP supporters" (how does he know they are BNP supporters? Do the BNP consider them "supporters"? etc.) without describing in detail and providing some adjunct evidence of the event, is not enough -- particularly when it's plain that the BNP is demonized without evidence far more than it is not (a cursory Google yields 9 out of 10 websites devoted to demonizing the BNP with no substantial proof from what I could tell). If, for example, I read a Jihad Watch post that recounts the story of one person who says she has been gang-raped by Muslims in Paris, and that Jihad Watch post offered absolutely nothing else but her testimony, my "jury" would have to be out on that post (even if in my mind I would tend to believe her); for one thing, I don't know this woman Jihad Watch would be posting about, I don't know who brought this story to the attention of others, and then to Jihad Watch; etc. Thankfully, Spencer & Co. don't post like that most of the time.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 11:51 AM

Dr Pepper, doesn't the fact that this political party does not allow non-whites to join put you off it in the slightest? Or are you happy with that?

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 11:56 AM

INTERESTED: "Very few prosecutions have been brought under legislation against incitement to racial hatred.

"Cornelius, I share you views on Islam, but I think it's important, if you are making statements about the UK, to get your facts right."

CORNELIUS: Perhaps my use of the word "often" was inaccurate. But it doesn't change the overall implication. You've just concurred that a Brit was prosecuted for anti-Muslim comments. The fact that "very few prosecutions" have occured under the racial incitement laws doesn't mean these laws are any less benign.

Meanwhile, please clarify your position? You are OPPOSED to the impending religious vilification, but SUPPORT the anti-racism laws?

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 12:29 PM

should have read "...doesn't mean these laws are benign."

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 12:32 PM

Dr Pepper
I submit that the particular group I had in mind declaring themselves to be BNP supporters and handing out BNP literature as they spoke was sufficient evidence to their being BNP supporters. On another occassion the men (that day they were all men) concerned were canvasing for the BNP candidate a local election. Again, fairly conclusive I would submit.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 12:39 PM

You've just concurred that a Brit was prosecuted for anti-Muslim comments.

No I haven't. He was prosecuted for a public order offence. This is not the same as being prosecuted for expressing anti-Islamic sentiments.

The racial hatred legislation has been around since the early eighties. Only a handful of prosecutions have been brought.

I have no problem with this. Inciting hatred based on race is wrong.

This is completely different from religious hatred. Religion is a choice. Race is not.

The BNP, incidentally, against whom Dr Pepper can find no evidence, has a policy of "voluntary resettlement" of non-whites to "their lands of ethnic origin".

Yvonne Ridley would stay. Dr John Sentamu the black Archbishop of York would go.

The BNP's own policies are evidence against it. Unless, that is, one is happy with such policies. To date I have assumed that BNP supporters on this site are ignorant rather than racist.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 12:42 PM

Granny W - it doesn't matter what you tell him, he won't accept it. My Jewish boyfriend was beaten up by BNP supporters. No matter. I'm lying. He was lying. The BNP supporters were really Arabs. Who cares?

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 12:45 PM

From the Barnabas Fund, the international Anglican organisation for persecuted Christians. The history of the protest against the proposed religious hate legislation and the reasons for concern about it. Presented so cogently there is no need for me to try to paraphrase it.
http://www.barnabasfund.org/ITRHC/

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 12:46 PM

Yes, I think we have indeed reached the point of Jeremiah 5:21

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 12:58 PM

Granny W - you are right. I had to look it up, mind.

This evening will be less Jeremiah and more Jeroboam, perhaps with his friends Methuselah, Salmanazar and Balthazar.

Cheers! Have a good evening. Tomorrow is another year.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 1:08 PM

The same to you, and all Jihadwatchers, everywhere.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 1:32 PM

Rebecca,

You forgot one:

"Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers
-already, you see, the world had already fallen into
the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing
Christianity! -then we should in all probability have
been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which
glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh
Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic
races would have conquered the world. Christianity
alone prevented them from doing so."

(August 28, 1942, midday)

p. 667 "Hitler's Table Talk; 1941-1944" translated by
N. Cameron and R.H. Stevens, Enigma Books (1953)

Happy New Year everyone!

Posted by: Andrei Rublev at December 31, 2005 1:40 PM

Yes.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

Including Dr Pepper - may 2006 be the year in which you get the measure of the BNP.

Posted by: Interested at December 31, 2005 1:44 PM

Granny,

You wrote previously: "when you hear a bunch of BNP supporters in the next bar of the pub, then you have less trouble reading between the lines of the manifesto". Were these the same BNP guys you later were referring to as "handing out BNP literature as they spoke..." and "[o]n another occassion the men [the same men as before?] (that day they were all men) concerned were canvasing for the BNP candidate a local election."

What did you hear these BNP supporters saying in the next bar of the pub?

And for the sake of argument, let's say it was racist and racist directed at non-Muslim minorities as well: I've seen some over-the-line posts here at Jihad Watch; and in the anti-Islam rooms at Paltalk, I have heard things like "Muslims are all cockroaches, exterminate them", etc.

At any rate, I'd like to know what you heard them saying.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 1:59 PM

Dr Pepper
These were different men (and some women) on numerous occassions. Without saying too much about exactly where I have lived, and naming the establishment (for obvious reasons)it is known on JW that I have lived all my 51 years in and around East London, including districts which, at one time or another, have had BNP candidates, even BNP councillors. Sunday mornings in Brick Lane, near the famous Petticoat Lane street market was a favourite meeting place to hand out leaflets.

To quote the sort of things I have heard them say means repeating language and sentiments that some might find offensive, for which I apologise. Such as:- "F**king n*gg*rs, burn the bl**ders, w*gs out, England for us whites, f**king yids, Hitler had the right idea. There was a slogan which got chanted across the bar one particular night, just before we left "if they're black, send them back"
Some of this is local vernacular but I hope you get the picture.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at December 31, 2005 2:46 PM

Interested: "Inciting hatred based on race is wrong."

I can understand crminalizing incitement to violence, which is tangably harmful, but "inciting hatred based on race" is a slippery slope. For one thing, "hatred" is subjective.

For another, criminalizing the expression of opinion sets a dangerous precedent, vividly illustrated by the proposed law against inciting hatred based on religion, which as you have pointed out was largely an attempt to clear up the dichotomy of having Jews and Sikhs protected from "hate" speech, but Muslims and others not. In other words, I can see the direct correlation between the initial anti-racist legislation and the impending religious vilification law. Can you?

Anti-racism has the potential for becoming a new totalitarian construct. In Sweden, it is a crime to denounce immigrants and immigration. In France, Oriana's opinions have been effectively criminalized because they were INTERPRETED as racist. In America, it is a tool in the universities used to silence legitimate debate on a number of issues including Islam.

Please don't get me wrong, I despise racism of any sort. All I'm asking my friend is that you scrutinize the implications of criminalizing the expression of opinion.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 2:50 PM

Back to topic
I agree with Hugh that in former times, those who are now attracted to Islam would have been attracted to fascism of some variety or another. My explanation for this is that both justify sadism, brutality, psychopathy, and sociopathy. A good Muslim jihadist can be a psychopath with social and, he believes, divine approval.
Eric Hoffer's True Believer would be very helpful. So would Dr Robert Lindner's Fifty-Minute Hour, where this psychoanalyst presents case histories of a Communist and a fascist, inter alia. Today, I think that the psychological diffs between a Commie and a fascist would be much less than then.

About fascism, Mussolini was a militant socialst leader before he became a fascist. Nariz, please take note.
As to Hitler and Nazism, the Mufti of Jerusalem during the Holocaust years, Haj Amin el-Husseini [al-Husayni], spent most of the war in the Nazi-fascist domain and worked closely with Himmler and the SS to recruit Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the USSR to the Nazi forces. He specifically declared in a speech to the Bosnian Muslim SS division [Handschar] that Nazism and Islam were very close ideologically. [see Joseph Schechtman, The Mufti and the Fuehrer]. Nazi fugitives after WW2 often came to Egypt, some hired by Nasser to teach propaganda techniques, Judeophobia, police organization, etc. to Egyptians. Neo-Nazis have also cooperated with Nasser and the Syrian regime & PLO. In that respect, the Neo-Nazis were not different from the Communists of various stripes.

Posted by: Eliyahu at December 31, 2005 3:04 PM

Cornelius,

That's the difference between European Leftism and American Leftism: the European brand has even more power, and wishes to outlaw expressions of opinion, not just expressions of violent behavior. European Leftism is obsessed with standing vigil over the Maginot Line of yesteryear, lest another white European Hitler rise up; while their very vigilance is solidifying the protection and impunity of the latest neo-Fascist threat to the world: authentic Islam. Europe is quickly solidifying the exemption of Islam from all substantive criticism, since such criticism will be deemed (if it hasn't already in significant places) an "incitement to racism". It doesn't help matters that the vast majority of Muslims in Europe are, in fact, non-white: it feeds the charge that critics of Islam are racists or, at best, xenophobic neo-Colonialist Orientalist Islamophobes.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 3:39 PM

Eliyahu,

The Grand Mufti, Al-Husseini, also was invited to Berlin by Hitler, where he delivered radio sermons to world Muslims, specifically to enjoin Muslims to join Hitler and to exterminate Jews.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 3:43 PM

Pepper,

Well said.

How interesting it is that Western Colonialism is portrayed as such an abject evil in our universities when its actual legacy was so mixed.

Certainly Colonialism was deleterious to the well-being of subject peoples in many, many respects. But that infamous era can and should also be seen as the apex of religious freedom in the Muslim world, where the rights of Muslims to worship was not repressed in any way and yet Christianity flourished after centuries of oppression...where churches of different denominations were constructed after centuries of prohibition...and where slavery was forcibly ended after centuries of practice (at least in most Muslim countries).

Other positive legacies of Colonialism can be seen in places like India and Botswana, where the rule of law and Democracy have become post-Colonial realities.

Posted by: Cornelius at December 31, 2005 4:53 PM

Cornelius,

Some day I am going to set aside some time to perform an intellectual exercise: to tease out, adumbrate and clarify the semi-incoherent and perversely logical jumble of thoughts and emotions that forms the ideological anti-Western nebula held (in varying degrees) by most Western Leftists. It will be a formidable task for me, not only because it's a complicated mess to untangle (sometimes that can be an enjoyable exercise) but also because it will force me to inspect closer and palpate a disease that alternately repels and infuriates me.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 6:53 PM

Granny and Interested,

Well, Nick Griffith chairman of BNP might be a cleverly disingenuous leader along the lines of the Stacy Keach character in the movie American History X, a leader of a movement who slyly encouraged -- without ever giving direct orders -- young violent racist skinheads to gravitate to his rallies and meetings and to go out and do various forms of violence, but in the end could always have plausible deniability by saying he couldn't control the types of riff-raff who might become hangers-on of his movement. Robert Spencer himself could be (and has been) accused of a similar dynamic, where we get these occasional extremists who pop in here and Spencer can simply point to his disclaimer -- "Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein." -- to wash his hands of them, meanwhile those types continue to be attracted to this orbit (and many may lurk here to avoid getting banned) mainly because there are so few orbits out there that are sufficiently anti-Islam for anyone (including extremist hotheads) who is frustrated about this global problem of Islam.

Anyway, Granny and Interested, your anecdotes remain insufficient for me to conclude that Nick Griffith and the BNP are bad for the sociopolitical fight against Islam. The BNP "policy" that only whites can be members I have been unable to substantiate (except as parroted by anti-BNP people without citations), though their manifesto as quoted by Granny does say that they want Britain to be for the types of people that constituted Britain for its first two and a half millennia, which happens to turn out to be white. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a country deciding it wants its national heritage to be reflected in its demography. That said, it is preposterous at this late stage of the game to be pursuing such demographic purity as a concrete goal, and, to the extent that the BNP is fixated on that goal to the distraction of the far more important goal of exposing active authentic Islam as a threat, I'd have to agree that the BNP is not a good ally.

However, the fact that BNP types (and their echoes in Continental Europe) are largely the only public-political voices telling the straight truth about Islam is a scandalous indictment of the MSC: not the MSM (MainStream Media) alone, not our politicos and "elites" alone, but the much larger and deeper MSC: the Mainstream Culture of the West.

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at December 31, 2005 7:17 PM

Happy New Years to all, may this be the year that we finally start to push back the Jihad and the Da'wa.

2006 will be crucial year in the struggle to save the West and the world from Islamic conquest.

El Cid and his very large family

Posted by: El Cid at December 31, 2005 9:27 PM

Durandel, thanks for the quotes. It shows how far from being a Christian Hitler really was. He may have considered himself a Christian, but he was not. For example, if someone sleeps in a garage and considers himself to be a car, that does not really make them a car. Hitler said "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started _but could not finish_, I, Adolf Hitler, will conclude."
Any Christian knows that Jesus'last words on the cross were "It is finished!" or "Te tellesti!" in the Greek. This was a common term at the time that merchants would write on a bill that was paid, or as we would say today, "Paid In Full!". The fact that Hitler said that Jesus' work on earth was not finished when Jesus Himself said that it was, shows that Hitler did not understand what a Christian is, and that Hitler did not recognize that Jesus did in fact accomplish the work that His father sent him to do. What Hitler did by making that statement was (1) call Jesus a liar, and (2) elevate himself to a position equal to Jesus.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 1, 2006 12:41 PM

Bohemond,

Hitler was not alone in twisting Christianity to suit his purposes; the history of Christianity is filled with thousands of individuals and sects who did the same, creating thousands of splinter Christianities (categorized as heretical and heterodox by orthodox Christians) to litter the historico-cultural landscape of the West. And Hitler likely did not invent his peculiar Christian heresy, but was influenced by the rich tradition of Christian heresy in Europe and Germany (such as Jacob Boehme, to pick one name out of thousands one could pick from Western history).

Is a Christian heretic a Christian? No, he's not an orthodox Christian, but he does emanate out of the orbit of Christian culture. (And then we have the further complication that Christianity itself has been evolving, and in certain ways cannot be said to be a static, ahistorical vehicle.)

Posted by: Dr. Pepper at January 1, 2006 1:59 PM

Dr. Pepper, I agree that Hitler is certainly not alone in twisting Christ's teachings to justify his own personal beliefs and actions, but neither he nor any of the other so-called Christians who misunderstood or perveted Jesus life can justify their words and deeds with what Christ Himself said and did in the bible. Muslims, on the other hand, can justify all their terroristic and antisocial behavior by what the Q'uran and hadith says and what Muslim history records that Mohammed did. The bible condemns Hitler's actions, the Q'uran commends bin Laden's actions. The two books are neither reconcilable nor compatible but completly opposed.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 1, 2006 2:58 PM