Ahh, it's good that the West is supporting moderate Muslims such as Karzai in Afghanistan. Because there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, right? Right?

Posted by: Fjordman at January 8, 2006 4:15 PM

Flap your gums all you want, Hamid Karzai. Try to humanize your Taliban buddies.

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSLEM ALWAYS

It's what they say back here in the West: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 8, 2006 5:54 PM

What's the difference between the Kharzai Government and the Taliban?

The Afghan pipeline, which the Taliban had refused Unocal..and BTW Kharzai was a consultant for Unocal, in fact IIRC he is a U.S. Citizen.

Compare the Bush Approved

Afghanistan an Islamic Nation

Afghanistan Draft Constitution

Article One Ch. 1. Art. 1

Afghanistan is an Islamic Republic, independent, unitary and indivisible state.

Article Two Ch. 1, Art. 2

The religion of Afghanistan is the sacred religion of Islam.

Followers of other religions are free to perform their religious ceremonies within the limits of the provisions of law.

Article Three Ch. 1, Art. 3

In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the sacred religion of Islam and the values of this Constitution.

Compare the above to the Taliban Constitution

ARTICLE ONE:
THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN IS AN INDEPENDENT, UNITARY AND INDIVISIBLE AND ISLAMIC STATE, HAVING SOVEREIGNTY OVER THE WHOLE OF ITS TERRITORY. NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY IN THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE. THE PEOPLE EXERCISE NATIONAL SOVEREIGNTY THROUGH LOYA JIRGA AND NATIONAL ASSEMBLY.
ARTICLE TWO: THE SACRED RELIGION OF ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF AFGHANISTAN. IN THE REPUBLIC OF AFGHANISTAN NO LAW SHALL RUN COUNTER TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE SACRED RELIGION OF ISLAM AND OTHER VALUES ENSHRINED IN THIS CONSTITUTION.

Compare the above Constitutions to The Iranian Constitution

Posted by: Nariz at January 8, 2006 6:18 PM

How funny! Afghanistan is a complete failure. It's not that the western world did/does not have good intentions; it's just that in our desire to expel the Taliban, we have simply taken in all of the warlords into the Council Of Elders. There is virtually no difference from the Taliban. The main difference is the payment of US jizya for the "support" of the tribal warlords.

Afghanistan has BARELY changed. Republicans pointed to ONE lone victory: girls in school. Well it appears even that is gone. Sharia law is FULLY in force, the only difference is the Taliban are not the enforcers of it.

The Taliban are escalating attacks in the country.
http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=91876

The Taliban seeks to regain power using the ballot.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/18/MNGDUEPNL81.DTL

Afghanistan: Government Calls For Clearing Security Barriers In Kabul
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/01/d6b777d9-1ba3-463d-99f4-bb9500e564c1.html

Now coalition forces are open season in Kabul. Expects lots of suicide attacks.

Afghanistan: Government Calls For Clearing Security Barriers In Kabul
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/01/d6b777d9-1ba3-463d-99f4-bb9500e564c1.html

Now coalition forces are open season in Kabul. Expects lots of suicide attacks. Afghanistan is a disaster as "moderate" Talibs take power. If this is the government that we are getting, lets cut off the Jizya.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at January 8, 2006 6:25 PM

In case you did'nt know it, a constitution is only a piece of paper. It does not have magical powers, and people(slimy, lying, Pragmatic, Marxist,elitist politicians) know ways to get around it and virtually null and void it. The U.S.A. is a case in point.

It took over a hundred years here, you folks expect it to happen overnight over there???

Posted by: kentim at January 8, 2006 7:17 PM

http://www.india4u.com/india4unews/newsview.asp?ID=1609

Sounds like the Taliban "Constitution" was a late-breaking development cooked up in desperation after the official one, as a way of saying, "Wait! Me too!"

Still...
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35636
... the official constitution is far from what a westerner would envision, with explicit mention of following the Hanafi school of Sharia; thus, the document is fittingly called "Taliban-lite" in the WND article, for failing to deliver freedom of speech, press, religion, and rights to women and unbelievers.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 8, 2006 7:26 PM

you cannot expect Afganistan to change overnight.. and Karzi should wake up and smell the coffee while he has a head on his shoulders and realizt that mr omar and his ilk want to separate Karzi's head from his shoulders! one big difference is that women are not taken to the soccer field and shot or become headless. that piece of paper they call the constitution is a start, and with education, perhaps a small chance things will change for the better.
what you you do instead? leave it to the taliban? it is a step in the right direction even though a very small one at that!

Posted by: Lulu at January 8, 2006 7:53 PM

Lulu-

The education you advocate in Afghanistan now involves teachers losing their heads [see related JW articles] if they try to include those 'half-the-worth-of-men' creatures of the Islamic faith in the classrooms. (Beings known as 'women' in the rest of the world).

Islam, when it is in our grip (as in Afghanistan or Iraq), needs to be forced to reform. Which means writing their Constitutions for them. And demanding that they include freedoms of speech, belief, etc.

Otherwise our efforts to control its dogmatic terror are just transitory window-dressing on a front of an essentially unchanging slaughterhouse.

An abattoir known as 'perfect Islam'.

Or the "religion of peace".

For some of its propaganda, see:

http://religionofpeace.com/

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 8, 2006 8:28 PM

Kafir Nonbeliever said "in our desire to expel the Taliban, we have simply taken in all of the warlords"

Right on. But the problem is that if you take away all the warlords and their supporters, and leave only the supporters of peace, democracy, and freedom, you end up with an empty Afghanistan.

It is another example of our hubris, in thinking that everyone is just like us; since the Afghans are not like us and have no history of being like us, there must be some rew radicals who are stopping them from being like us. Get rid of the Taliban (or whomever), and their society can transform to look like ours, just as it was meant to be.

Their society and history is based on tribal loyalties and in making Machiavellian deals with whomever and whenever it is advantageous. Their history and society are not based on peace, democracy, and freedom.

Our foreign policy of transforming the Middle East by using Afghanistan and Iraq to stand as beacons of democracy is flawed at its very foundation. Every floor we build on top of that unstable foundation is just misallocated resources, because eventually the whole structure will collapse, and they will revert to society as they know it.

Posted by: special_guest at January 8, 2006 8:52 PM

The main difference is the payment of US jizya for the "support" of the tribal warlords.

I thought the main difference was that Al Qaeda and their supporters were driven out of Afghanistan and the US military now operates in that country.Isn't NATO also operating in Afghanistan? Wasn't AQ using Afghanistan as a base of operations to launch worldwide attacks? I seem to recall AQ launching an attack from Afghanistan on cities in the US that killed 3000 Americans.I think that happened on Sept 11, 2001.

The fact that someone could see Afghanistan as a total failure is the type of shortsightedness that will lead to Republican victory in 2006.

Posted by: Roxane at January 8, 2006 9:35 PM

Dislamification may be necessary. It's not painless.

Posted by: Beagle at January 8, 2006 9:36 PM

The only good that could come of "inviting terrorists to talk" would be the ambush when/if they showed up. If the event was arranged for anything other than a hit, the arranging party would have to be fools (Americans in Iraq) or in collusion (Karzai).

Posted by: zhu97 at January 8, 2006 9:49 PM

It took over a hundred years here, you folks expect it to happen overnight over there???
-- posted by: kentim

The day the United States of America was founded it was a civilized nation comprising a wholly human and humane citizenry.

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSLEM ALWAYS

Afghanistan has no such advantage. The day it was established, it was an Islamic republic populated by Moslems.

Ouch.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 8, 2006 9:59 PM

Their society and history is based on tribal loyalties and in making Machiavellian deals with whomever and whenever it is advantageous. Their history and society are not based on peace, democracy, and freedom.

I think you've hit the nail on the head-- there are none of the "ideals" that drive other civilizations (heh) forward. Power and brute-force control don't require education or special technology, but only the notion that one will either obey or pay.

Added to that is a religious culture that is actively trying to "improve" itself by regressing to "the good old days" of the 7th century: No concept of a society moving forward. And yet, none of them ever ask themselves why Islam "jumped the shark" after a few hundred years and became the hallmark of areas of backwardness around the globe.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 8, 2006 10:27 PM

Hehe...
A.P.F. , you misunderstand my post.

I was talking about the constitution basically being window-dressing-- something to subvert and corrupt, and nullify in this instance.
In this case it has the appearance of islamic sanction, I propose we control the people,we will attempt to ensure that the right people run the country, those people will bit by bit change the meaning and program the people to believe what we want them to believe.
And we are not really offering them freedom, we're offering them more freedom than islam offers, but they will still end up not really having a choice because the information they will have access to will be limited, they will be biased to see things from a prescribed point of view. Eventually the jihadis will be considered crazy. They will never disappear, but the rest of society will be pacified and compliant because they have been programed to be that way.

Theoretically, it does not matter what the constitution says, or even the koran, gaining control of government and institutions and media, education etc, will change the definition of words, reinterpret history and events, distract them with hedonism and trivialities, keep them too busy working to think too much, modify or destroy and replace traditions, etc,etc,etc.

Language is the KEY TO REALITY. Virtual reality can be created with control of the information available.
Of course this is the ultimate test of the Pragmatists(psychological manipulators), I believe it is possible, but the question is how long and at what cost.

Posted by: kentim at January 8, 2006 10:43 PM

I should add that the jihadis know what's going on, they talk about it all the time. They are deathly afraid of it. For good reason.

Posted by: kentim at January 8, 2006 10:47 PM

Language is the KEY TO REALITY

Doublegood. No thoughtcrime. Extra saccharine pill for kentim!

Almost time for the "five-minute hate"... nope, wait, that's at Friday prayers. ;)

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 8, 2006 11:02 PM

Language is the KEY TO REALITY. Virtual reality can be created with control of the information available.
-- posted by kentim

Hear! Hear!

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSELM ALWAYS

My only edit would be to re-name your virtual reality to Fictive Reality. For Islam's natural dove-tail with the black art and practice of multicultural opinion programming is the biggest of stories in all of this.

It subsumes everything else in its pitiless and silencing wake.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 8, 2006 11:03 PM

Whooops. That was posted by the estimable Shinoliite. My mistake. So sorry.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 8, 2006 11:04 PM

kentim-

You Machiavellian dog, you!

I like the way you think!

'Neurolinguistic re-programming of the dogmas' may take generations, but once you get control over the military, the media, the leaders and the education system, there's nothing else to do, unless you want more of the same retrograde Taliban bullsh*t.

We need to replace the joyless sterility of Islam's paralyzed 7th century teachings with the open-ended exploration of the universe inherent in the Western system of skeptical inquiry, spiritual/philosophical/religious freedom, love for our fellow creatures (haram dogs and pigs included), and the liberation of women from the patriarchal poison of tribal darkness, learning to share the whatever warmth we can conjure with our common humanity on this tiny ball of molten metal, water and dirt whirling in cold infinity.

And we'll have to flood the countries under our passing care with eye-opening influences to stimulate their native creativity. Rewarding their fine arts and humbler crafts, listening to their music and poetry, honoring their film industries (Iran's is a miracle, considering the stultifying deadness of the rulers' minds) and hoping that the example of our basic decency and delightful discoveries will wean them from the "honor" killing, self-abnegation and the root fatalism that 1350 years of Koranic craziness has inculcated in their headlocked souls.

It is an honorable and profoundly worthwhile effort, since we're all in this together, untimately.

Mars is a bit arid.

Venus, a tad hot.

And the moon, a harsh mistress.

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 8, 2006 11:07 PM

There is one reason and one reason alone for the backwardness and savagery of the Islamic world, and that reason is Islam itself.

Posted by: UncleSam at January 8, 2006 11:39 PM

Actually, I was quoting kentim, and agreeing with a dash of Newspeak for emphasis.

But thanks-- it's not every day I'm called estimable. :)

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 9, 2006 12:01 AM

Mars is a bit arid.

Venus, a tad hot.

And the moon, a harsh mistress.

It's Uranus I'm most concerned about.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 9, 2006 1:25 AM

Afghanistan has no such advantage. The day it was established, it was an Islamic republic populated by Moslems.
- Advanced Pig Farmer

APF

Like Pakistan with India, N Korea with S Korea, Afghanistan would have an identity crisis if it were to abandon Islam - it would be indistinguishable from Iran. As it is, they do what they can - they are Sunni, as opposed to Iran's Shia, and they speak derivatives of Farsi. Even if Iran were to throw off Islam, (something that has been discussed in DW re: Zoroastrianism), it would not be an incentive for Afghans to follow.

I don't think the Afghan democracy experiment is any different from Iraq. Both were better off w/ civil war. The mistake the US made after 1996 was to allow the Taliban to gain exclusive power - they should have kept funding both sides to keep the war alive. That would have made it dangerous for al-Qaeda to set up operations there.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 9, 2006 2:40 AM

Shinolite - Saturn has a nice ring to it, as well as Uranus.

Posted by: Interested at January 9, 2006 6:32 AM

An abattoir known as 'perfect Islam'.

Or the "religion of peace".

For some of its propaganda, see:

http://religionofpeace.com/
Posted by: profitsbeard [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 8, 2006 08:28 PM\\

l agree with you that islam is deadly especially for non muslims! Afganistan is far better today than it was before 9-ll. yes teachers and those that want equal rights for men and women will lose their heads. dont you see what the locals want change! the risks they are taking, democracy will come, unfortunately very slowly. you do not want Afganistan to revert under total Taliban rule do you? it seems bad news get more attention, there is change coming, that is why those like BinLaden launched his war on the West, and most strongly on the U.S. those who disagree you seem to want to build a wall like the wall of China, it does not work, your best defense is "Offense"!

Posted by: Lulu at January 9, 2006 7:11 AM

The day the United States of America was founded it was a civilized nation comprising a wholly human and humane citizenry.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

Tell that to the slaves, the Indians, the blacks lynched in the 20th century, and the Japanese interned during WWII.

Since the Bill of Rights, we've had, what, twelve or more amendments to the Constitution and a civil war to boot?

While I agree that many of the tenets of Islam are incompatible with democracy, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was the USA. All we have to do is see to it that one generation grows up living under freedom and democracy. That will effectively let the cat out of the bag and Islam will destroy itself if it tries to put it back in.

Posted by: Big G In TX at January 9, 2006 9:44 AM

Tell that to the slaves, the Indians, the blacks lynched in the 20th century, and the Japanese interned during WWII.
-- posted by Big G In TX

Moral equivalency equating what happened four hundred years ago to what is done now is worst that useless, it is suicidal (if you're an infidel, at least).

Yeah, I know that there were a tiny number of lynchings last century, which under our law is felony murder. Are you saying none were prosecuted?

Under our law, were the internees not released and compensated?

You know, according to God in the Koran slavery and racism are good things. Our Moslems neighbors in their mosques currently accept that as true to this day. The Koran, Hadiths, Sira, and Sharia also cause enthusiasm for lynching. I refer you to the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan and the Islamic Republic of Iran for many examples of lynching.

Where is your facile equivalency vehicle? It is mired up to its axles in swine poop back in the Empty Quarter of the Islam Fictive Reality shared by almost all of our nimrod opinion celebrities and their narrow minded servants in the university.

ALWAYS ANGRY ALWAYS AGGRIEVED ALWAYS BITTER ALWAYS MOSLEM ALWAYS

Neurolinguistic re-programming of the dogmas' may take generations...
-- posted by profitsbeard

Could the process of such opinion programming not have been recently accelerated with recent refinements to TV and the appearance of the Web and cell networks?

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 9, 2006 10:03 AM

Their society and history is based on tribal loyalties and in making Machiavellian deals with whomever and whenever it is advantageous. Their history and society are not based on peace, democracy, and freedom.

Our foreign policy of transforming the Middle East by using Afghanistan and Iraq to stand as beacons of democracy is flawed at its very foundation. Every floor we build on top of that unstable foundation is just misallocated resources, because eventually the whole structure will collapse, and they will revert to society as they know it.

Posted by: special_guest

Afghanistan wasn't always Islamic. Dig a little deeper and you will find it's true nature.
That's what Islam likes you to do, forget everything that was there before it.

Islam has only supressed the culture which was there before it. It's still there, but it takes time to it to become vibrant again, for the people to loose their fears, and for new generations to grow free from what Islam had inflicted on the generations before them.

It took several decades for Islam to entrench itself, and it will take just as long to undo what islam has done. It will never be what it was, but it can be something better.

Cut and run and you may as well give it back to the Taliban. It would be easy for them to undo all that has been done because it's still fresh in memory of the population. In 20 years it will be less so, and in 40 nobody will remember the Taliban at all except a few old people.

When you are out to change a part of the world, be prepared to be there a very long time. And we will be. The problem with western people's thinking is that we think everything should happen instantly.

Iran wasn't always Islam, nor was Iraq, and most of the ME. There is a culture buried under Islam in most places, in some it still exists just under the surface, in others it's been completely lost.

Posted by: Mullahmasher at January 9, 2006 10:48 AM

and the Japanese interned during WWII.
-- posted by Big G In TX

The Japanese were interned during WWII while we were at war with Japan. It was most likely a wrong decision at the time, but sometimes imperfect decisions get made during a war. Most west coast Japanese immigrants came during the Meiji era and did not support the Tojo government. In Brazil most of the Japanese immigrants came later during Taisho. During the war there was strong support in the Brazilian-Japanese community for Japan. In contrast, Japanese-Amrican soldiers fought well (against the Germans).

If the USA had been an Islamic country and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor what would have happened? I'd bet that Japanese residents would have been lynched by mobs after Friday prayers.

Arguing against internment powers for the US government is not a good idea in my opinion. We may need to use it again if/when this jihad war escalates.

Posted by: Malta_1565 at January 9, 2006 12:19 PM

RE: and the Japanese interned during WWII.

While the interment was a dranconian response, there were very real and valid concerns about spying and sabotage.

Posted by: learjet0450 at January 9, 2006 1:09 PM

Mullahmasher said "Afghanistan wasn't always Islamic. Dig a little deeper and you will find it's true nature."

Understood, Afghanistan has a culture that predates Islam. But that culture was never one based on democracy or freedom or peace. Those are not values that developed in Afghanistan before the 6th century, they developed in Europe after the 18th century. The Afghans have not been working towards democracy and freedom at any time in their history. Their culture (especially after the influence of Islam) has other values, some of which are inconsistent with freedom and democracy.

Big G in TX said "All we have to do is see to it that one generation grows up living under freedom and democracy. That will effectively let the cat out of the bag and Islam will destroy itself if it tries to put it back in."

And then what? After one generation, they will forget their centuries of history, and they will suddenly have the same values as us? This all seems so paternal and culturally superior. Why is it hard to accept that there are people in the world who have different values than ours? Why are we spending American lives and money trying to transform them into versions of us? The Taliban is what they wanted, it is what they fought for. The danger to the U.S. was not the Taliban in Afghanistan, it was the Al Qaeda members that we let through the borders into the U.S.

Posted by: special_guest at January 9, 2006 3:12 PM

As yet, I don't have anything to contribute to this topic except to thank Mr. Spencer et. al. for not closing comments.

This is a fascinating discussion, (among many other equally good recent threads on JW,) and I think we're all lucky to be able to participate.

Back to lurking, reading, thinking...

Posted by: corax at January 9, 2006 3:36 PM

Special_guest says:

"The Taliban is what they wanted, it is what they fought for. The danger to the U.S. was not the Taliban in Afghanistan, it was the Al Qaeda members that we let through the borders into the U.S."

The Taliban was extreme even compared to most other islamic states. And it's what
only HALF of them wanted; the female half never had a voice in the decision. [If they'd had a voice, maybe the Taliban would be only an unpleasant memory.]

Yes, the danger--technically--was Al Qaeda in the U.S. but the Taliban was a nest where they were hatched and trained. If you want to get rid of cockroaches, you have to go to the places where they originate, not just catch the ones in your kitchen.

Posted by: corax at January 9, 2006 4:16 PM

All we have to do is see to it that one generation grows up living under freedom and democracy. That will effectively let the cat out of the bag and Islam will destroy itself if it tries to put it back in.
-- Big G in TX

Physics has taught us that it is much easier to destroy than to build. Islam will destroy freedom and democracy as certainly as gravity makes the apple drop to the ground.

After all, dragging people down is the express purpose of Islam, a word that in 7th century Arabic meant "surrender" or "submit" (take your pick).

Such an organization is not likely to accept defeat with grace.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at January 9, 2006 4:51 PM

"God in the Koran slavery and racism are good things."

God in the Bible has been used to justify slavery and racism (not to mention genocide and subjugation) countless times throughout history. And what does this mean when we consider modern clean-living Joe Christian in Anytown, USA? Squat. There's Christianity and there's Christianity, there's Islam and there's Islam. Yeah, the Koran has passages condoning genocidal violence, slavery, etc. It was a violent, unjust time; most ordinary people at the time DID condone genocidal violence and slavery.

And how bad Islamic countries are now wasn't the guy's point; he was saying that trying to claim that American or Western society has always been squeaky clean, democratic, moral and tolerant throughout all of history is ridiculous.

Posted by: elbowsunique at January 9, 2006 5:24 PM

corax said "If you want to get rid of cockroaches, you have to go to the places where they originate, not just catch the ones in your kitchen."

I think if the goal is to get rid of all cockroaches in the world, that is not really realistic. If we're willing to spend the entire GNP for the next few generations to eradicate cockroaches in every corner of every jungle in the world, it might work, but I'm guessing there are better ways to spend our money.

The goal should be to keep our own kitchen free of cockroaches, while leaving time and money to go see a movie once in a while, send our kids to college, build some better cars, do a little scientific research, read a book, have a nice meal, etc. etc. There is more to life than squashing cockroaches. We just have to make sure not to leave any dirty dishes in the sink, keep the garbage can covered, sweep the crumbs off the floor, etc.; simple stuff really.

BTW, glad you stopped lurking and started talking. Nice to hear from you.

Posted by: special_guest at January 9, 2006 5:31 PM

Thanks.

To carry on with the cockroach metaphor: Agreed, trying eradicate them all isn't practical. Keeping them off the premises is essential, yes, but unless we're strictly isolationist there will be tremendous collateral damage if we ignore them elsewhere. And what about our embassies, travelers, businesses overseas? Targets, all. And if Eurabia...er...Europe caves in to them, how long can we hold out? In some ways it really IS like WWII.

I'm optimistic in a guarded way, and agree with Dubya when he says people naturally gravitate towards freedom, no matter their history. But in places like Afghanistan, literally squashed by the oppression of religion, how can freedom/democracy have any chance? Conditions are so adverse it's like planting a seed on Mars: nobody will ever know what could have been.

But that said, I think Hamid Karzai is a really smart guy, and maybe--just maybe--if a tiny window can be held open long enough, a few more Afghan children (both genders) will be able to get educations, and who knows...

Posted by: corax at January 9, 2006 6:06 PM

corax said "In some ways it really IS like WWII."

Not only has Hugh convinced me that we should get out of Iraq as soon as practical, but he has also changed my mind that the correct analogy is not WWII, but the Cold War. Islam is an ideology just as Communism was; it is not a city or a bunker or a hill that can be taken and held by an army.

It must be contained, people must be educated about its dangers, and it must be resisted by all means necessary [mostly non-violent]. We did not allow Soviet Communists whose stated goal was the overthrow of the U.S. government to come in and teach in our universities or to work in sensitive intelligence agencies or to set up Communist propoganda offices in every major city. We didn't have a President telling us that Communism was an ideology of peace except for a few radicals at the top, and that we need to reach out and embrace the Communists, that we need to spend American lives and money to improve and strengthen the Communist nations. We should not be doing those things today either. Seems pretty obvious, but then I see the President holding hands and kissing the Saudi Prince, and I'm thinking "Huh?".

corax said "...and [I] agree with Dubya when he says people naturally gravitate towards freedom, no matter their history"

I just don't know what he bases that belief on. To me it sounds simplistic and naive to think that all people share our goals and values regardless of centuries of history proving otherwise.

Posted by: special_guest at January 9, 2006 6:28 PM

If I was the ruler of the world (ha ha) I wouldn't be trying to get Afghanistan (or anyplace else) to be just like the U.S. I would just want the kids to get a reasonably objective education and be taught how to think for themselves. I would want women to participate in their society, because a single-gender culture is too unilateral; it can never be a rich, healthy, creative or vibrant environment. If those 2 things could be achieved, groups like the Taliban would fade away, and something closer to "freedom" would evolve eventually, IMO. But with over-arching Islam, an objective education is impossible, so the whole thing keeps ricocheting back to the 7th century.

Special_guest says, re: The Cold War:
"...We did not allow Soviet Communists whose stated goal was the overthrow of the U.S. government to come in and teach in our universities or to work in sensitive intelligence agencies or to set up Communist propoganda offices in every major city. We didn't have a President telling us that Communism was an ideology of peace except for a few radicals at the top..."

True! Back to keeping the cockroaches out of the kitchen. I don't see how Karzai's efforts to communicate with the radicals can be a bad thing, though, as long as he can stay alive to do it. He seems to want to shine light on the problem.

Posted by: corax at January 9, 2006 7:09 PM