I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but I don't think there's any chance that you'll be invited to the Hoopers' next Eid.

*LOL*

There is only one Mr. Hooper, and he used to be on Sesame Street. Big Bird is his Messenger and was brought to you by the letter "J." Peace be upon him.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 17, 2006 9:37 PM

I beheaded my little sister's doll when I was a kid.

She never forgave me.

Posted by: Cornelius at January 17, 2006 9:45 PM

*sobbing...crying* I - I - I'm sorry Mr. Spencer....I - I- raaaaped my sister's Barbie when I was 5 please im so sorry for perpetrating such a ghastly act against an innocent plastic toy! Please forgive me! I'll even accept the European Court of Human rights judgement on me to pray salat and do sijdah 5 times a day

Tushar

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at January 17, 2006 9:56 PM

How can local JW/LGF readers meet up ?

I don't see a logical method or forum for potential JW/LGF activists to contact each other and organize??

Posted by: savetheus at January 17, 2006 9:57 PM

Aren't we special, CAIR doesn't like some of our comments.

Cornelius.... I use to behead or blow up my dolls until my stupid relatives started asking what I *really* wanted. Of course mother wanted to know where I was getting all the cherry bombs and fire crackers.

I don't think it's being hateful to say I'd like it very much if all violent muslims vanished off the face of the planet. Ditto for ALL violent sorts and sexual predators.

Posted by: fireangel at January 17, 2006 9:59 PM

Tushar Saxena -

Thanks for Eurobashing again. The European Court of Human Rights has protected us, in much the same way the the USA Supreme Court does in the USA, from some legislators and legislation that want to go too far in telling us what to do. However, I suppose the facts are just not as much fun as your rather silly prejudices - but give it a rest, it's getting very boring. Yawn.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:01 PM

I'm so ticked that I didn't make CAIR's list. Maybe they are reading this thread. If so....

I think someone could make good money making urinal cakes in Mohammed's likeness. I know I'd buy lots!

Is that enough for CAIR?

Posted by: dfobare at January 17, 2006 10:03 PM

savetheus -

I wish we could meet up and plan some sort of peaceful action but as you say, there doesn't seem to be a logical, safe way.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:07 PM

No matter you link us to CAIR terrorists and ask if the authors of the comments have killed anyone to try to excuse this, the fact is these comments, altough removed -because keeping them wouldn't be good for public image, eh?- give a clair proof of how many who claim to defend democracy against that barbaric religion Islam is are actually no better than the ones they seem to hate so much. And the saddest thing is some of this human filth is Christian. And then they will have the balls to blame the Palestinians who danced the 9/11. One wonder what they would do if they were ruling their country.

So these comments do not reflect jihadwatch official policy, ok. But what about those ones?

"A complete ban on Muslim migration to the Western world (which needs to be undertaken in any case), and limits put on any contact between Muslims living in the West, who may already have obtained citizenship and -- unless they are native-born converts -- their countries of origin."

"And the first way is to put a complete stop to Muslim immigration, and to find creative ways to deport all Muslim non-citizens. These two measures would be accompanied by the creation of an environment where the practice of Islam is made not easy but difficult."

The West must "Understand how very useless is the concept of the "moderate" Muslim -- because it is impossible to know when someone's "moderation" is real or feigned"[5] and must take "specific moves to limit Muslim immigration. This can only take place if the Idols of the Age, about Diversity and Everyone Wants the Same Thing and Tolerance is Always the Only Conceivable Policy, are undermined, mocked, and shown up as the dangers they are."

"Stephen Sizar of Virginia Water, should be demanding that in Bethlehem and Nazareth, Iraqi and other Arab-speaking Christians should move in, and Muslims be moved out. The retaking of Bethlehem, by the Israelis, and its being repopulted by Arabic-speaking but non-Arab Christians, or by Christians who are from Europe or Latin America, and willing to live there to keep the place safe for the world's Christians and out of Muslim hands and inevitable Muslim domination at the expense of a Christian presence, a Christian flavor, and ultimately of Chrsitian access -- should be a cause that will also, and most usefully, serve to separate out the Christians from the islamochristians"

Authored by Fitzgerald

But you are right, why does it matter, if Hugh never deported anyone?

Of course you will say his views find no echo in your own, after all he is just the director of your site and in your own words "one of the most brilliantly insightful commentators on the scene today"!

Posted by: Ispanan at January 17, 2006 10:09 PM

CAIR is an organization of hypocrites. CAIR can only hope to get the website removed legally through lawsuit so that debate and criticm of Islam can be squashed. CAIR is not interested in free speech or freedom of expression. CAIR is nothing but a left-wing stooge organization with a very specific political agenda, an agenda which is not concerned with Muslim-American relations, but rather with advancing left-wing, anti-american, anti-Jewish, pro-Palestinian, and by default, pro-terror propaganda.

Oh by the way CAIR, I happen to read Arabic very well and I couldn't help but notice your Washington D.C. metro area front newspaper "Al-Nashra" and your agent (a very powerful arabic term btw), Mr. Farid Al-Ba'eeni. I see your agenda very clearly. It's ok though, keep printing this stuff, it's helping my skills out immensely. It's always good to learn left-wing political agenda in Arabic. Gives me more tools to work with.

Posted by: x_achillesheel_x at January 17, 2006 10:11 PM

Lol, hey Cert...I don't remember you ever responding or even being involved in any forum which had my previous posts. I don't post often though I read the site everyday many times. And yes Eurabiabashing is fun...as is Indiandhimmi bashing and american dhimmi bashing...no qualms about mocking those who deserve it. But alas..kudos to whatever they had accomplished in the past...lets hope Eurabia remains where it is - in the books...

Tushar

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at January 17, 2006 10:13 PM

Ispanan writes:
"give a clair proof of how many who claim to defend democracy against that barbaric religion Islam is are actually no better than the ones they seem to hate so much."

I guess Ispanan must mean "very low reading
comprehension" in Arabic, or whatever language
it is they speak in the hole you crawled out of.
See, even if I ululated and passed out sweets
whenever some worthless mobot goes to Hell with
his pedophile prophet, that's a bit different
than killing, isn't it? And that's the whole
point of Robert's post, isn't it?

You mohammadans never miss a chance to miss the
point, or to behead Christian teenagers, or blow
up Jewish babies, or just kill infidels.

Posted by: American at January 17, 2006 10:18 PM

No, only using words seems to be a crime... calling for the destruction of a country or the killing of infidels doesn't seem to be noticed...

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/PA_NEWA17968281137502318A000?source=PA%20Feed
~Griffin 'warned of Asian hell-hole'
18 January 2006

British National Party leader Nick Griffin told a crowd that white society had turned into a multiracial hell-hole as Asian Muslims aimed to conquer the country, a court has heard.

Griffin, 45, and fellow party activist Mark Collett, 24, face a series of charges arising out of speeches featured in an undercover BBC documentary on the party.

Leeds Crown Court heard that both men addressed a crowd at the Reservoir Tavern in Keighley on January 19 2004.

Rodney Jameson QC, prosecuting, told the jury that Griffin concentrated on allegations of paedophile drug rapes by Asian Muslims in Keighley during his speech.

Reading excerpts from the speeches, Mr Jameson said Griffin said white society had turned into a multiracial hell-hole and urged the crowd to vote BNP in order to ensure "the British people really realise the evil of what these people have done to our country."

Griffin, of Llanerfyl, Powys, denies two counts of using words or behaviour intending to stir up racial hatred and two of using words or behaviour likely to stir up racial hatred.

Collett, of Swithland Lane, Rothley, Leicestershire, denies four counts of the first offence and four of the alternative.

The trial continues.

.
.
Notice after Hamza's hateful words were played at his trial nothing has been said about his trial by the BBC? And he was calling for murder not asking for biased voting. Plenty more like him out there not being stopped. There is no freedom of speech in England or Australia or France or ...
.
.
. it's a crime now to state your opinion... .
. the speakers corner box won't be safe...
.
. can shutting down the blogs be far behind...

Posted by: Borg at January 17, 2006 10:22 PM

I would like to suggest that there is a badge that anyone committed to secular, western style democracy can wear in the lapel. It is plain, stark white, that is to say no lettering or design of any sort; it is half-an-inch high and between one-and-a-half and two inches long (wide); it is, therefore, rectangular. It can be made at home out of a safety pin and some white card, or plastic, and some sticky tape, or it can be purchased from an office supply store (at least, in the UK that size is available). Wearing this badge simply means that the wearer is committed to supporting secular, western style democracy and it doesn't mean anything else nor can it give any offense as there is no lettering or design of any sort on the badge. Since Mohammedanism does not support secular, western style democracy jihadists, dhimmis and others are obvious - they not only not wear it but they are refusing to wear it. Wearing this badge will also support many in the third world who strive towards freedom and have atrted to wear it.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:22 PM

I wish we could meet up and plan some sort of peaceful action but as you say, there doesn't seem to be a logical, safe way.

Well that seems to really limit the value of this site and sites like it. I mean I've learned alot in the past few months that I can try to relay to close friends but I'm only one voice. I don't undertsand the "safety" side of your comment? Is there a liability fear that some whack-jobs can meet here and do something illegal or what? If so I don't know why there can't be a pointer to some Yahoo (no pun intended) group.

Posted by: savetheus at January 17, 2006 10:22 PM

Well. Now, we are getting somewhere. Perhaps, Robert could set up a scoreboard.

I would be disappointed if my efforts had gone unnoticed.

Oh, ... No muslims; No mosques.

Posted by: Havoc at January 17, 2006 10:23 PM

It is clear what side Ispanan is on, and it's also clear the psychological manipulation Ispanan is attempting, which quickly fails here. Ispanan is more concerned about the bug on the window rather than notice that the engine is on fire. Get a clue. CAIR only wants to (try and) establish special class treatment for Muslims in order to suppress any criticism of Islam and therefore perpetuate the deception and the Jihad. Trying to prevent criticism of Islam is proof in itself that it's a major deception.

Posted by: Report at January 17, 2006 10:23 PM

But Tushar...

If everyone could just be nicer! Why... if we were nicer, Terrorists would become peaceful, docile creatures. Hamas would lay down their weapons and drop their official policy of "driving the Jews into the Sea". Wahhabis would stop Jew-Bashing, might stop declaring them to be the descendants of "Pigs and Apes", and turn to possibly even (gasp) allowing women to show an ankle!!! Could you imagine? An ankle! How provocative! How Radical! If we were just nicer, if we would just "understand" where these jihadists are coming from, why, we couldn't help but see the honor and justification in their beheadings, rapes, murders, tortures, honor-killings, stonings, plunderings, pillagings, genocide, extortion, intimidation, kidnappings, and maimings.

I apologize to any victim of a terror attack of any sort reading this webblog if I didn't accurately describe the action against them. They are quite a rainbow you know, a Kaleidoscope of Evil, if you will.

Posted by: x_achillesheel_x at January 17, 2006 10:25 PM

Sorry, typo, last phrase should read "have started to wear".

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:25 PM

A memo to CAIR:

When are you guys going to remove all those hateful passages in the Qur'an which are aimed at non-Muslims?

Never? That's what we thought.

So, who in the hell would CAIR be to talk about hateful missives anywhere (Not just here)?????

In our estimation you at CAIR are nobody to do so and thus have no rights WHATSOEVER to so much as make negative commentaries on what we write here.

**************************************

A note to everyone else: even at their most graphic, the writings in this section are TAME compared to what is said and done in the mosques by imams and other assorted Islamic "clerics". That's a FACT which CAIR doesn't want you to know.

ps- We who post comments at Jihad Watch don't encourage people to commit murder or conspire to commit murder either--in contrast to SOME PEOPLE WE KNOW AND WRITE ABOUT.....

Posted by: pythagoras at January 17, 2006 10:26 PM

it's a crime to be an interpreter or a journalist ...at least in the islamic world...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/17/iraq.journalist/index.html

Posted by: Borg at January 17, 2006 10:29 PM

By the way I have a proposal for everyone here.

include the jihadwatch.org website address in all of your emails going out to your friends, coworkers, family, everyone that you speak to. Example:

Take Care,

John M Doe
888-555-4444
www.johnmdoe.com
www.jihadwatch.org

They might not appreciate it at first, but they will catch on once they visit the site. The other thing is, who can resist a URL sitting right in front of their face waiting to be clicked? Tough, isn't it? It's like sitting in front of a jar of Cashews. You know if you crack that lid it's over, you'll eat the whole jar and there is nothing you can do about it. Same concept with teasing people with such a great URL.

Posted by: x_achillesheel_x at January 17, 2006 10:33 PM

>How many of you Jihad Watchers have beheaded anyone?

Well, there was this one time at band camp....

Posted by: Han_Solo at January 17, 2006 10:35 PM

My dear "Ispanan,"

It might not be wise for you to pick up your material uncritically from defamation attempts at Wikipedia without checking them out first yourself.

These quotes from Hugh are taking on a life of their own among Jihad Watch haters, none of whom trouble to note that they come in the context of an article he wrote arguing against the deterrent value of the destruction of Mecca (as suggested by Congressman Tancredo), and proposing milder alternatives.

An apposite quote from the piece: "Deterrent measures that could be undertaken in the event of a chemical or nuclear attack, but without waiting in some cases for any further attacks (although further attacks will help to justify the more far-reaching among them) might include, but not be limited to...These are things that can be done, should be done, long before suggestions about 'bombing Mecca' need to be bruited about." Emphasis added, oh yes, but any fair-minded reader (yes, that means you're disqualified; I'm sorry) will see that these are a series of suggestions for an extreme circumstance, proposed as a series of deterrents to a major terrorist attack.

As for his suggestion about Bethlehem, I think it is rather utopian and unlikely, but I do not think it any more immoral than the many population exchanges that followed World War II, or others throughout history. If you think otherwise, please explain why discussion of a population exchange in this particular case is ipso facto hateful, but not hateful in Poland, Russia, Germany, Czechoslovakia, etc., in 1946.

Finally: you say, "Of course you will say his views find no echo in your own..." Actually, I won't say that. We agree on most, not all things. But you are quite wrong: he is not "the director of your site," and never has been, and while I did indeed say that he is "one of the most brilliantly insightful commentators on the scene today," I did not say he was an "infallible commentator." He states his views without censorship here, but his views are under his byline and mine are under mine. Only the mean-spirited propagandist (yes, you, sir) would assume our views are identical in all respects, for smearing purposes.

If you really want to know what I think of Muslim immigration in the West, read my books. I haven't been shy about the topic. But if you go looking for my views in the writings of those whom I consider insightful but who are not me, well, caveat emptor.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 10:39 PM

Certiorari~ you posted that you were in Paris and that the riots were not as bad as portrayed by the foreign press. Did you ever think that the riots were NOT actually IN Paris and the French press was suppressing the news? They admitted as much. Did you actually go around at night to the 30+ towns that were being burned? Have you looked at the French blogs? They seem to be telling a VERY different story than the press is telling. Like the roving bands threatening people all over and nothing being done. It seems it's a crime to complain in France these days...

Posted by: Borg at January 17, 2006 10:39 PM

Beheading -

Does throwing my programme at the off key tenor in the chorus last month at the opera count. I did get him in the neck and I think it was with the stapled side - but then again, it could have been any one of the thirty odd programmes that got chucked at him. Also, in common with most Brits, perhaps, I feel slightly guilty about burning an effigy of Guy Fawkes every November, 5th. I feel all week after such a confession to unbridled violence - I'll just have a nice cup of tea and a quiet lie down in a undisclosed darkened, secure room.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:43 PM

ispanan writes:
"the Palestinians who danced the 9/11"

I was in Manhattan that day...so I missed the dancing. Perhaps you have the music & choreography. It would be a good reminder of the atavistic nature of Muslim culture.

By the way, I didn't see anybody dance when the Taliban were overthrown. Didn't hear about Israelis dancing when Yassin got his. Guess its a Muslim thing.

Posted by: materialguy at January 17, 2006 10:43 PM

"whom I consider insightful but who are not me.."
-- from Robert's posting above

I'm not? Now you tell me.

Posted by: Hugh at January 17, 2006 10:44 PM

Like Lenny Bruce, I have never ever not one time cut off anybody's head.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney at January 17, 2006 10:45 PM

No, Hugh, I am not you.

I am not even me.

Yours
Robert

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 10:46 PM

I'd like to be the first one here to formaly introduce the fine, hard working foks out there at CAIR to the Internet.

Welcome to you all. Or, as most of us say here, "whalecum lolz".

Posted by: Elliot at January 17, 2006 10:46 PM

Mr. Spencer, Mr. Fitzgerald -

This is getting surreal. If neither of you are the other and one of you isn't yourself where on earth does that leave the rest of us - figments of God's imagination, perhaps.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 10:51 PM

Certiorari:

Allow me to refer you to the short story "Borges y yo" -- Borges and I -- by the great Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges. You may find that it sheds some light on this admittedly confusing situation.

"I is another" -- Arthur Rimbaud

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 10:53 PM

Moneypenney,

Lenny Bruce is dead, but his spirit's living on and on.

It's a shame he never won a Golden Globe Award.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 10:56 PM

None of you are vomiting rabbits, like in Julio Cortázar's "Letter to a Young Lady in Paris," are you?

One would want to get that checked out.

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 17, 2006 10:57 PM

Do you think Henry VIII was a closet Muslim? After all, he had numerous wives and beheaded many of them. Oops, am I engaging in hate speech? Sorry CAIR.

Posted by: GFB at January 17, 2006 10:57 PM

And Cortazar and Borges collaborated on the stories of Bustos Domecq. No, I mean Bioy Casares. Sorry. Another glass of Jerez (de la Frontera) anyone?

Posted by: Hugh at January 17, 2006 11:01 PM

Thank-you Mr. Spencer. We now really feel as if we are acting in 'Waiting for Godot'. As one of me said earlier - a quiet lie down with a cup of tea in a darkened, undisclosed, secure room. (I do not know that particular Borges story - I will look it up.)

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:02 PM

The problem here with CAIR is what you get when you pull faces at the monkeys. They go apesh*t.

Cair's response to JW in the face of the avalanche of Islam justified crimes all across the world shows the mentality of a monkey, but then most monkeys have some sort of constant moral code towards their own species and I am probably being too harsh on the monkeys.

Posted by: Zathras at January 17, 2006 11:08 PM

Mr. Spencer,

I think you left out a very important award in your 2005 jihadwatch awards. The award is "most hypocritical organization in America".

Check out CAIR's mission title from their website:
"To enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, and empower American Muslims..."

Let's see. Are any of those parts true? Any of them? They advance their "understanding" of Islam as a cover-up, CAIR has just proven to Mr. Spencer that CAIR is not interested in dialogue at all. CAIR is only interested in protecting the civil liberties of its constituency, not the civil liberties of non-muslims who would be the victims of a terror attack here or abroad, the most prominent civil liberty being the loss of one's life. I think we all know what empowering American Muslims means as well. Arming them with all the left-wing hate-america-first tools they can muster. It means emulating their golden-children, Sami Al-Arian, Randall T. Royer, and Ghassan Al-Elashi.

Posted by: x_achillesheel_x at January 17, 2006 11:13 PM

I do not know who is putting on the bad remarks but it only encourages them and puts Robert in a bad light so stop it. Unless, it is really someone from the other side, nothing we can do about that.

Please support the idea of getting Robert Spencer onto coast to coast am radio and interview with George Noorey.

go to contacts on www.coasttocoastam.com

Posted by: eaglecap at January 17, 2006 11:14 PM

I've never beheaded anyone, contemplated beheading anyone, or encouraged the beheading of anyone. The psychotic practice of beheading is a time-honored Islamic tradition, one of many sacred obscenities revered by Muslims for centuries. Since I am a member of the civilized world, not a muslim, I find beheading and all of Islam's aberrant practices repugnant.

Four years and three months ago, Islam formally introduced itself to America. Some "American" muslims were so impressed, they celebrated with great joy in our streets. These immigrants, who asked to come here, were elated at the death and destruction wreaked by their beloved "brothers." I will NEVER FORGET the sight of these despicable muslim scumbags; cheering, laughing, literally overcome with ecstacy at the carnage in NYC and the Pentagon.

I made a resolution on that horrible day, and I have not faltered, nor will I ever falter. Until the day I die, I will tell anyone who will listen about the sinister ideology of Islam. If I cannot convince my audience, I will recommend books and websites. I will do everything humanly possible to reach the maximum number of people and warn them about the scourge that is Islam. I didn't learn about Islam after the fact; I was well acquainted with its blasphemous, profane, and evil doctrine twenty-five years ago, and I knew its unspeakable malevolence would eventually force itself into our world and change it forever.

But I won't encourage people to kill muslims or even to hate muslims. I know that muslim clerics teach hate, intolerance, jihad, and superiority because that is Islam. They are merely practicing their religion, albeit a predatory, violent, hate-filled credo that should be illegal because it threatens the safety, security, and freedom of all Americans. I pray that some day it will be illegal in the U.S. I challenge Mr. Hooper of C.A.I.R. to stop me from telling the truth about his adopted religion. He cannot stop me; he cannot prevent the truth from being told and it's about to drive the lying little hypocrite insane!

Posted by: Susanp at January 17, 2006 11:14 PM

The Mohammedans call us blasphemers. I have just remembered what George Bernard Shaw once said - "All great truths begin as blasphemies".

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:16 PM

Yes, Hugh, it was Bioy Casares, not Cortázar, who collaborated with Borges on "The Chronicles of Bustos Domecq."

Bioy Casares also, if I recall correctly, was responsible for giving Borges the fateful encyclopedia volume containing the entry on Uqbar -- but perhaps it was another.

Yours
Robert

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:20 PM

I'd really like to push the white badge thing that I posted earlier in this thread. Is really that bad an idea?

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:22 PM

Cert,

I think a plain white badge may be misconstrued as a "white flag of surrender", I don't think you want to stumble into that interpretation. Am I way off on this?

Posted by: x_achillesheel_x at January 17, 2006 11:23 PM

"your honour and ladies and gentlemen of the jury
all this has been happening to me because of this guy named t bone burnett.
he's been making all this up
and i just want to say i don't believe in him
in fact i don't even think he exists"

Obscure song reference #2 of the evening.
Good night, everybody.

Posted by: Miss Moneypenney at January 17, 2006 11:25 PM

Borges, Cortázar... more priceless culture we'll lose if the jihadists win.

The Koran couldn't tolerate any competition for magic realism in fiction. ;)

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 17, 2006 11:25 PM

Not all that obscure, Moneypenney.

I do recall it very well, here in my sprawling estate on the lake in Secure Undisclosed Locationville.

And by that I don't mean by the lake. I mean ON the lake.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:29 PM

Mr. Spencer -

No, it was Bioy Casares. It was the Anglo-American Cyclopedia, vol. XLVI, - but of course only the one that Casares showed to him. The one they found in a bookshop on Corrientes and Talcahuano contained no reference to Uqbar either.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:30 PM

GFB,

I doubt that Henry VIII was a Muslim, but since we're dealing with questions of identity, I know one thing: I'm Henry the eighth I am, Henry the eighth I am, I am. I got married to the widow next door. She's been married seven times before. And every one was an Henry. She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam. I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry. Henry the eighth I am.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:32 PM

Certiorari,

Thank you. Or perhaps I should say, in a small, stunned voice:

"This cannot be."

(Cf. "The Book of Sand.")

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:33 PM

Mr. Spencer -

"It can't be, but it is". Now, back to my darkened room on the "outskirts of Bikaner".

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:40 PM

Certiorari:

Before you go, call Lönnrot.

The first letter of the Name has been uttered.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:41 PM

Shinolite,

If I did vomit rabbits,

¿Encontraría a la maga?

Just wondering.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:46 PM

Mr. Spencer,

I presume you mean Elias Lonnrot, the Finnish author. I have note read the Kalevala or the Kanteletar yet, so I am afraid that the refernce passes me by. Sorry to disappoint.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:48 PM

No, Certiorari, I meant the great detective Erik Lönnrot.

Pardon me, but I thought you had arranged a rendezvous with him at that marvelous little villa in Triste-le-Roy.

My mistake.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 17, 2006 11:50 PM

Mr. Spencer,

My mistake. "I have premeditated everything, Erik Lonnrot, in order to attract you to the solitudes of Triste-le-Roy". It would be nice if our journalists were all like Alonso Zunz.

Obviously my guilt at having notyet read the Elias is warping my mind - I may become Scarlachian and have to be put down.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 17, 2006 11:57 PM

¿Encontraría a la maga?

Pues, si Ud. la encuentre, no diga:

"ah mierda, mierda, hasta mañana maestro, mierda mierda infinitamente mierda, sí, a la hora de visita, interminable obstinación de la mierda por la cara y por el mundo, mundo de mierda, le traeremos fruta, archimierda de contramierda, supermierda de inframierda, remierda de recontramierda..."

Robert, ¿es Ud. cronopio o fama?

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 18, 2006 12:00 AM

Cronopios and Famas/:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0811214028/102-8447142-2869723?v=glance&n=283155

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 18, 2006 12:02 AM

I drive by a hog farm on my way to work every day. I even look at the pigs!
Does that count?

Posted by: MountainDad at January 18, 2006 12:05 AM

Shinolite,

Yo soy enormísimo cronopio...por supuesto.

Con respeto
Roberto

Posted by: jihadwatch at January 18, 2006 12:06 AM

*LMAO*

Y con mucho respeto a Ud.

La Shinoliite
Cronopia profesional

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 18, 2006 12:09 AM

Savetheus

I know a way that we could meet up. How about if all of us wore a blue scarf, and when we met one another we could mention the name of Robert Spencer.

Posted by: Voltaire at January 18, 2006 12:13 AM

Mr. Spencer,

The thing that worries me most is those wretched monkeys at their typewriters. If they end up producing Shakespeare by accident then surely one of them could produce the Tetragrammaton in the same way. What if some simple scientist came along and read it out loud. It just doesn't bear thinking about.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 18, 2006 12:18 AM

One last thing before I make myself close the browser and get some work done:

It would appear that the bear in the plumbing in Cronopios y Famas actually exists!

http://www.icbe.org/pics/icbe_bear.jpg

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 18, 2006 12:20 AM

x_achillesheel_x -

The white badge is already established, it is the colour of purity, the colour of the virgin knight's shield, the old colour of mourning and the colour of the senator's togas. What could be more appropriate.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 18, 2006 12:23 AM

Shinoliite -

Shouldn't it be smoking a GENITAL, just for the really compleat picture, you understand.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 18, 2006 12:25 AM

Well, the ICBE (The International Center for Bathroom Etiquette) is a family site. ;)

http://www.icbe.org/icbe.shtml

Posted by: Shinoliite at January 18, 2006 12:33 AM

found on an islamic web site.

since we're not allowed to make images of humans and animals, should children be allowed to play with toys in the shape of humans or animals?.

Answer : from an islamic site

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
With regard to those in which the shape is incomplete, in which there is only a part of the limbs or head, but the shape is not clear, there is no doubt that these are permissible, and these are like the dolls with which ‘Aa’ishah used to play. (Narrated in al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440).
But if the shape is complete, and it is as if you are looking at a person – especially if it can move or speak – then I am not entirely at ease with the idea of them being permissible, because this is a complete imitation of the creation of Allaah. It seems that the dolls with which ‘Aa’ishah used to play were not like this, so it is preferable to avoid them. But I cannot say that they are definitely haraam, because there are concessions granted to young children that are not granted to adults in such matters. It is natural for young children to play and have fun, they are not obliged to do any of the acts of worship so we cannot say that that they are wasting their time in idle play. But if a person wants to be on the safe side in such matters, he should cut off the head or hold it near the fire until it softens, then he should press it until the features disappear.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?search_text_box_dsn4=23445&lv=browse&formtrans=dgn%3D4%7C&ln=eng&ds=qa&sensitivity=2&searchquestions=1&searchtitles=1&searchanswers=1&searchsources=1&pg=result&offset=0&msubmit=1&submit.x=45&submit.y=5

Posted by: werter5075 at January 18, 2006 1:37 AM

"Like the toys with which Aisha used to play"
-- from the posting above, quoting a Muslim website

That offers conclusive evidence that Muslims, who sometimes try to insist that Aisha was 18 or 19, know perfectly well how old she was when she caught Muhammad's eye.

Other details too -- advising the decapitation or melting, by holding to a fire, of the features on a child's doll -- are telling.

Muslim websites are full of such stuff. Grateful to the person who supplied this, and hope he offers, by posting, more.

Posted by: Hugh at January 18, 2006 1:42 AM

A few years ago I didn’t know what Muslims or Islam was all about. I started reading everything I could find on the subject. The I happened to find JihadWatch and from Robert Spencer, Hugh, D.C. Watson, and may individuals who posted on this site, I learned a lot of very important information. Granted, there are some who wrote things that were rather harsh. This a free country and everyone has the freedom to express how they feel. One thing I learned when we (infidels) speak the truth, people such as CAIR accuses us of hate crimes. The articles that I have read where Mullahs and Clerics have preached hate from their mosques is the purest form of hate and inciting to violence. It is all over the world. Then they go to the US to preach their hatred and pursue their criminal activities and get caught - then they use the rights of the Constitution of the US to defend themselves. I say when does these people from these countries that are not citizens of the US have the rights of the Constitution? They are working to take the rights of the citizens away and replacing them with the Muslim agenda - pure and simple. So, CAIR thinks we are filled with hate - they are right. We hate the hate filled cult they call a religion - not the people themselves. CAIR should take a good look at all the “peaceful Muslims” who cheered and danced in the streets when the World Trade buildings went down and then called the criminal hijackers heroes. When the big earthquake hit in Pakistan - how many people from the US cheered and danced in the street? As for the beheadings - I think one of the victims was a relative of mine - CAIR you defenders of criminals I have the video of the criminals doing their dastardly deed. If you don’t believe me, I can send you a copy of it - you bunch of hateful criminals!!! You don’t like it here - go to the countries where you would be at home with the rest of them criminals and leave the people who are free to speak their mind alone. To put it bluntly - I hate criminals!!!

Posted by: THSIMJ at January 18, 2006 2:06 AM

Borg

Doesnt seem like any here want to look at the griffen case
It is the same at FFI

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/PA_NEWA17968281137502318A000?source=PA%20Feed
~Griffin 'warned of Asian hell-hole'
18 January 2006

British National Party leader Nick Griffin told a crowd that white society had turned into a multiracial hell-hole as Asian Muslims aimed to conquer the country, a court has heard.

Griffin, 45, and fellow party activist Mark Collett, 24, face a series of charges arising out of speeches featured in an undercover BBC documentary on the party.

Leeds Crown Court heard that both men addressed a crowd at the Reservoir Tavern in Keighley on January 19 2004.

Rodney Jameson QC, prosecuting, told the jury that Griffin concentrated on allegations of paedophile drug rapes by Asian Muslims in Keighley during his speech.

Some background to Keighley

Channel 4 News has uncovered details of an 18 month police and social services investigation into allegations that young men are targeting under-age girls for sex, drugs and prostitution in the West Yorkshire town of Keighley.

But what's explosive about the allegations is that all the young men are Asian, and all the girls are white.

The local MP, Anne Cryer, says the men's cultural background of arranged marriages is the key to understanding the problem. That's vehemently denied by Asian community leaders and by social workers.

But the mothers of some of the girls say existing legislation is not protecting their children. Our North of England correspondent Justin Rowlatt has this:

The suggestion that men are seeking out schoolgirls for sex would be controversial in any community. But the claims about what's happening here in Keighley are particularly incendiary.

Sixteen per cent of the Yorkshire town's 70,000 population is Asian. And the allegation is that what is happening here in Keighley is that Asian men are seducing young white girls.

Supt Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

"Early last year we received a variety of reports that young Asian men by young I mean in their teens to their twenties were targeting young vulnerable school girls for sex and were actually leading to prostitution in some cases."

But it's proved very difficult to tackle. Many of the girls don't see themselves as victims and the police investigation - which lasted a year and a half - has lead to just one prosecution for a serious sexual offence, a rape.

Kath Tunstall, Bradford Social Services

"I fully agree and accept that young girls are being exploited and this is a child protection issue and that's why we're taking great steps to address it. There is a frustration without any evidence to pursue prosecutions."

As far as the police and social services are concerned this is a child protection matter -- they say race is not an issue. Yet -- even if they've never been involved -- most schoolgirls in the town will tell you that cars full of Asian men waiting at the school gates have become just another fact of school life.

Gemma Meares, schoolgirl:

"You see a lot of Asian men, driving around in cars and stuff, smoking draw..."

Channel 4 News:

"What, coming to the school gates?

Gemma Meares:

"Yeah, they are come in and sit in.... with their music pumping and stuff.... "

Channel 4 News:

"What, trying to pick up young girls?"

Gemma Meares:

"Impress young girls, yeah."

Channel 4 News:

"Have you seen girls go off with these men?"

Gemma Meares:

"Er, yeah, I suppose, I've seen lasses getting in cars and driving off with them."

We've spoken to two mothers whose daughters became involved with these men. The mothers are afraid of what might happen to them if it's known they've spoken out.

They say they've tried to warn their daughters of the dangers these men pose but they believe the men are deliberately targeting impressionable girls some as young as 11 and 12.

It is claimed the men meet the girls outside the school and offer them cigarettes, drink and drugs, trying to establish a relationship.

"Julie:"

"These men are showing you what you see as a good time, tripping off in the cars, driving around in the cars, buying you booze taking you to McDonalds, Burger King throwing money at you., you know like it's no object and it's treating you. In the beginning its like a treat. But I used to say to her in the beginning, nothing in life is free."

And it's alleged the girls aren't always treated well..

"Mandy:"

"At the age of 13 she was regularly taken to Bradford to a flat. At this flat she was introduced to Es to speed and GHB. On 5 occasions I had a phone call in the middle of the night. "I'm on a street corner mum I don't know where I am. I don't feel too well tonight."

The mothers say there's no question what the men really want -- they want sex.

"Mandy:"

"We regard this as, they're paedophiles. It's a grooming. There's a grooming process. Paedophiles -- a paedophile is a man that likes having sex with a child."

There's no doubting the mothers concern, but their daughters often don't see any problems with their relationships with these men. And, if the girls are 13 or over the police can't initiate criminal proceedings without a formal complaint - and often the girls wont do that.

"Julie:"

To them, it's not abuse. To them it's a laugh. They're having fun. They're just having a laugh. Chilling. Why don't you chill mum?"

The mothers have given police a list of 57 Asian men who their daughters say are involved. Of course it's not unusual for young men -- of all races -- to seek out younger girlfriends. So is the real reason why people are so concerned about what's happening in Keighley because in this case the men happen to be Asian? .

Kath Tunstall, Bradford Social Services:

"This is a problem of young men exploiting young girls. Regardless of what the minority background is. If this was white men or black girls that is not the issue for us here. This is a child protection issue that we are all working together to tackle.

For police and social services the key problem has been the fact that girls often don't believe they are being exploited.

Supt. Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

"What I want to do with them as a police officer and a father is arrest people who abuse children who are paedophiles and who engage in hat behaviour. The difficulty we have is evidence, we need the girls because of their ages we need them to complain about what's happening to actually tell us that's happened to them and to do that in statement form and there's been a marked reluctance. We've carried out a very extensive investigation jointly with social services, we've approached the girls who've been named and there's been a marked reluctance among most of them to do that and come forward."

That's despite the fact that according to the two mothers we've spoken to sometimes this goes far beyond consensual sex within relationships. Both say their daughters have been gang raped -- one at the age of 13.

"Mandy:"

"On the fourth or fifth time of them going cruising and having a drink, her and a friend were taken to a flat, the flat door's locked, sat down drinking, the drink is spiced with GHB. All 4 men -- my daughter is taken by all four men in turn. Her whole body was shaking and she couldn't stop shaking from the effects of the drugs that she were given. My daughter said "You know what will happen mum, if we go to the police, you know what will happen". And I do know because I've had Asian men on the phone to me saying that if I send police to their house one more time then they will petrol bomb my house.

Supt. Mark Whyman, West Yorkshire Police:

"The mothers we've spoken to say their daughters have been raped, sometimes gang-raped, these are incredibly serious offences are they not, surely there's something the police can do if there widespread allegations of this kind of behaviour? The difficulty is these are allegations, the evidence is rather thin on the ground. However there are a variety of things we have done we have affected arrests we have arrested an offender for a very serious sexual offence and that will come to court and I'm sure when it's revealed what's actually gone on there that there will be preventative aspects. We're also doing disruptive activity, that means that some of these men are criminals, they are actually known to us anyway they are engaging in other criminal activity and there's things we can do with them in relation to enforcing the law, perhaps in relation to the misuse of drugs act and in other areas which will help."

Meanwhile social services are working with the girls to try to alert them to the dangers. The local MP applauds the work that's being done but is worried that by maintaining that race is not an issue, police and social services are failing to understand the real nature of the problem..

Anne Cryer MP, Keighley

"I believe there is a very strong cultural reason, it's nothing to do with the religion lets make it quite clear, its to do with the Asian culture, which wants these young men to marry these very young girls from their village, usually in Mayapore, and as with any other young men, they are seeking relationships elsewhere, and the sophisticated white woman wouldn't have anything to do with them because they understand that at the end of the day, they are just seeking sex not genuine relationships and therefore the only outlet left to them is to look for very young girls through this organised sex ring that we are seeing in Keighley."

Anne Cryer's a controversial figure who's attracted flak in the past for her position on arranged marriages. The Asian leaders Channel 4 News spoke to unreservedly condemn what's been happening but they also reject her suggestion of a cultural explanation. .

Khadim Hussain, Community Leader:

"The statistics show at the moment that its the Asian men and white girls, but the problem isn't just confined to that group, there are other groups as well. My own information is there are Asian on Asian and white on white not being picked up and we are having discussions with the authorities to actually look at the broader picture and wider picture and try to address the issue as a problem which is not just confined to Asian...."

Channel 4 News:

"Well the problem is that in the police investigation all the men the girls were naming were Asian men. I mean, is there some reason, a cultural reason maybe, why Asian men would seek out girls in this way?

Khadim Hussain, Community Leader:

"I don't think so that culture has anything to do with it, if anything we can put a reason behind it is that the fact that if you look at the psychology of these young people, if you do any research, most of those young people are with no skills or with very little skills background. And probably they are they ones who have dropped out of the system."

The mothers say the fact the men are Asian isn't an issue for them -- they say they just want this abuse stopped. They met David Blunkett in person to argue that if criminal proceedings can't be brought because their daughters won't make complaints to the police then the law needs changing.

"Mandy":

We've stuck with it and we're determined to get a change in the law to enable parents to have the right to be the complainant. When you're daughter is being used and abused and drugged and raped by these men, this is, at the end of the day, that is what we want out of this. We want a change in the law."

Today the Home Office told Channel 4 News that the Criminal Justice Bill currently before Parliament includes provision to make reported evidence or "hearsay" evidence more readily admissible. As far as the mothers are concerned the change can't come soon enough.

AND NICK GRIFFEN RISKS JAIL FOR SPEAKING OUT

Posted by: shiva at January 18, 2006 2:20 AM

Posted by: savetheus

How can local JW/LGF readers meet up ?

I don't see a logical method or forum for potential JW/LGF activists to contact each other and organize??

Sadly to say we infidels dont have same as the moslems have
Mosques
Where they meet and organize

What is also sad is that the only forum that has any form of organization just happens to have a racist agenda

Posted by: shiva at January 18, 2006 2:40 AM

Anyone who cares to can find me at McDonald's in Vancouver, Canada on Jan. 26, me being the guy wearing the blue scarf. Unless there are many others. Try me at Main and Terminal St. How afraid am I of being attacked by Muslims because I'm sitting at McDonald's with a blue scarf? Ask me when you see me.

Will Muslims come in and blow up the McDonald's because I'm there? Why not? They blow up any place they feel like. They kill people at random. If you're afraid they might attack you at McDonald's, they might just get you on the subway anyway. There's no security. That day ended on Sept. 11, 2001. It's not going to get any better.

Posted by: sonofwalker at January 18, 2006 2:43 AM

Shiva what do you expect? After the Cronulla riots the first people gaoled were white yobs who retaliated.

The stigmata attached to parties like the BNP places everyone into an automatic antineofascist mode so that anything useful that they say is not even noticed. this is the classical PC mindset which defends the "religion" Islam.

Certainly lots of young men drive around in cars near highschool gates looking for gaolbait with whom to have a deep relationship and yes some use acohol and drugs to ease it.

But when the hypocritical "holier than thou" muslims youths do it it is no accident nor mere adolescent testosterone in action. They have been told to do so as the girls are western and do not matter.

Here in Oz the local Imam said: "never contaminate muslim women before marriage but if you cannot contain yourself do so with western women". this was the advice given in a mosque to many young men several of whom were gaoled for a particularly nasty rape.

This is typical Islamic hypocrisy in action and typical gutless western politicians in action and moreover it is so blatant that it is incredible.

It is very hard to just lie down and allow the above 2 (Muslims and gutless politicians) to run you over. Maybe some of us should risk going to gaol to make a stand on the difference between racial vilification and the speaking of the truth about the distastful, dishonest and criminal behaviour by a certain group.

Posted by: Zathras at January 18, 2006 3:40 AM

Shiva
Good posts, thank you for the research and comment.

Posted by: Granny Weatherwax at January 18, 2006 3:40 AM

Is there no one else who shares the depressing snowscape of Buffalo? *sigh*....and miles to go before I sleep...

Tushar

PS - Voltaire, the idea of uttering RS' name pricked by funny bone..sounded way too cultish...blue scarves, head figure (RS - our own Big Brother -- how does that sound?)

Posted by: Tushar Saxena at January 18, 2006 3:49 AM

CAIR, we have the equivilant here in blighty called the Muslim Council of Britain, and i figure there has to be more of these 'lets make islam pretty for the media brainwashed masses' organisations around the soon to islamic globe

and despite being ever so openly exposed by their membership consisting and supporting jihad and its regular dips into terrorism etc, dimmitude etc, rapes of non muslims etc somehow our local MCB has the ear of our prime minister, who regularly ensures us, in collaberation with the MCB all muslims living in britain are really lovely and if you dont agree then your a racist scumbag, in fact our lovely Mr Blair is ever so straight forward in ensuring our home grown terrorist neighbours are being placed on the road back to civilisation and intergration with large helpings of funding and incentives plus of course regular planning permission for ever increasing mosques

which is great because we all know alleged poverty and having no million pound venue to worship at is the sole reason behind terrorism and jihad and ever since this initiative to bribe the muslims under the MCB's overviewing why of course MI5 and anti terrorist squad have literally nothing to do these days, thanks Mr Blair, the MCB and i would assume Cair for all their efforts to stop us being killed by their efforts to dhimmi us all up

and yet something is now not right when a few vocal people actually state the Haj deaths were not such a bad thing

how can this be? for a desert death relegion which sends teen disabled boys strapped with explosives to kill the infidel the christian and jew and thus meet their maker who's primed up a half a dozen virgins for them, one would have thought a few hundred off to experience the same wouldnt be seen as a bad thing and whilst us infidels might not celebrate the subsequent deaths of our own caused by the disabled teen with the body rig covered in explosives as the rest of the muslims round the world seem to, you'd think they'd be glad we support them when a few shuffle off without killing us to meet their maker and finally locate a virgin

guess there's no pleasing some folks huh, does this mean i have to cancel the bikini clad page three dancers and pork sandwiches gathering i arranged to celebrate haj and all the joy it brings yearly to an infidel like myself

we'll here's a message to Cair and to my own lovely MCB

stop your fellow death cult members cheering on our streets when they kill us, and maybe we'll all stop the party when a few more of you kick the bucket

allah akbar on that

Posted by: Taranus at January 18, 2006 4:24 AM

ps: i never beheaded anybody, but if there's a job going at the next haj to save time, i'll forward my CV

Posted by: Taranus at January 18, 2006 4:26 AM

Savetheus and Voltaire, help in organizing is on the way.

Stay tuned. The Blue Revolution is just beginning.

Posted by: Rebecca JW at January 18, 2006 6:47 AM

Gingerbread men, yes I am the guilty one, I bake 'em and behead'em, then I bake me some more. I even thought of videotaping one session and perhaps strike fear into the hearts of the bakery elves.

Beheaded a snowman once in grade 10, but then Cristina K. kicked my butt for damaging her snowman, but that was cool, she was cute and there's nothing like a cute girl tackling you in the snow when you're a teenager. Yupee!

Tushar in Buffalo, man that is boring.

Honestly, can't recollect any event where I would say I have harmed a living thing, unless you accept the fact that I eat Chicken and fish.

Recently a colleague of mine, who doesn't know me too well, began preaching Islam to me and how I should be a good Muslim.

He went on about how the West is evil, how Allah will help the Muslims win, how all the world should be Islamic, how all infidels should die, how Islam once ruled from the Atlantic to the Pacific, parts of Europe, India and even the United States and Carribean Islands (Yes People, he claimed it was true, man I felt like I was in a Psych ward).

Then cream of the crop was when he stated how he looks at me as a brother because I am a "Muslim". It killed him when I said "When did I say I was a Muslim? I am not a Muslim, I am a Hindu *Smile*, and a Rajput at that *Big smile*."

You had to see his face, he was shocked, angry, embarassed and replied "Why didn't you tell me?"

I was like "It was interesting to hear what you really think. Now that I know you better, I'll make sure not to fly with you."

Have I ever terrorised anyone, never, afterall I am not Muslim.

-Ayo Gorkhali!!!!

Posted by: Gorkhali at January 18, 2006 6:53 AM

I am an American Patriot
I fought in one of America's wars
I have met America's enemys up close and personal
and I won
I am an American Patriot
I believe in my freedom of speech
that was not free
I believe in my freedom to write
that was not free
I believe in my freedom of religion
that was not free
I am an american Patriot
and we paid the price
I am an American Patriot
and I am free
Free to express myself
Free to think for myself
Free to defend myself
I am an American Patriot
and I will defend myself
From enemys foreign and DOMESTIC
If you do not like our ways
Then leave
If you try to change us
We will resist
I am an American Patriot
and I am WATCHING YOU

(PS There are many many AMERICAN PATRIOTS WATCHING YOU)

Posted by: Grunt at January 18, 2006 7:29 AM

Not that I would want to excuse the attempted shutting down of free speech in any way, but I think that yes, of course, there have been things I've read in these forums which might give the CAIR the ammunition they need in order to attempt to exploit the law. (Personally I think 'hate' legislation as such is unworkable and unethical, a hideous form of thought-policing; but that's another argument altogether. Though I think that hatred is always the wrong path, people surely have the right to hate whoever they want, and to speak their minds; and the law should have no business getting involved unless that hatred leads to the commission of a criminal act.)

I wish we could concentrate solely on exposing those elements of the islamic belief system and ideology that we find troubling and fascistic, and on highlighting the media bias and cowardice that accompanies theses issues, rather than for example laughing behind our sleeves at the 345 Hajj deaths, endlessly discussing 'nuking' various people or places, or glorifying neo-nazi BNP leader Nick Griffin as some kind of free-speech martyr. (Does he have the right to say what he wants? Of course he does, and he shouldn't be on trial for it, but let's not pretend he's any sort of hero. Anyone who has read about him knows exactly where he's coming from.)

Robert's posts are essential, informative, and entirely appropriate, and most of the unmoderated content is likewise, but personally speaking I always come across one or two unmoderated contributions which sound as rabid, as extreme, and as bigoted as any jihadist propoganda.

I believe in freedom of speech, I just think sometimes that freedom allied with thoughtless aggression undermines the invaluable role this site performs and plays right into the hands of its enemies.

Do I think any of that constitutes an excuse to attempt to stifle discussion of the islamic religion by the CAIR or anyone else? Absolutely 100 percent not.

Posted by: religion_of_peas at January 18, 2006 7:52 AM

I have "hate" dreams, I dream that Saudi Arabia will be catholic, and will give money to make better churches than the Vatican, and put churches in all europe.
Greetings and thank JW, for all.

Posted by: Franze at January 18, 2006 8:09 AM

I am going to buy a blue scarf; should it be a certain shade of blue? I can not wait to meet some of you wonderful people!

Posted by: CRUSADER at January 18, 2006 8:10 AM

My dear “Jihadwatch”:

So the only thing Hugh does is to suggest better things than bombimg Mecca! Thank God! We can rest assured that when the governments of the Western world decide to bomb Mecca, Hugh and you will be there to soften things and suggest milder alternatives! I guess we should be thankful?

You say you do not agree with him on all things. But do you agree with him on the Bethlehem issue, yes or no? You said this idea was “unlikely” and “utopian”, but you didn’t state your opinion about it. By “utopian” do you mean it is a good thing but that it will never be achieved? Then is it right both of you agree on those issues, as I said?

Why did you come up with the 1946 population exchanges? When did I talk of that? What am I talking about, 1946, or 2006?

What do these two situations have to do with eachother, anyway? The expulsions of Germans from the East Europe countries followed the end of the most destructive war that ocurred in Europe and the hatred of Germans that resulted from it. What you want for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict final solution (yes, yes, I recognize it is milder than the original one) is to deport a people who have not been the opressors, but the opressed during the past 60 years, as much as you want to hide this fact by highlighting Palestinian terrorism and conveniently leave out Israel state terrorism. So not only they have been continously crushed since the creation of Israel, but furthermore you want to expel them to create a safe Lebensraum for the Zionists.

In case some of you have any hope about, it, forget it. It will never happen. This is complete and utter dementia, as much as you think you are right while the rest of the people who don’t agree with it are brainwashed dhimmis.

“Some "American" muslims were so impressed, they celebrated with great joy in our streets”
What are you talking about?

http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Those people showed their solidarity with your country, that is, with you also, only to see what you say about them in return. Fortunately, people like you are the exception, not the rule.
I don’t know if American Muslims celebrated the attacks, although I do know that thousands of Americans celebrated in the sreets when the Gulf war began and bombs were killing women and children.

So just... shut up.

“Recently a colleague of mine, who doesn't know me too well, began preaching Islam to me and how I should be a good Muslim.
He went on about how the West is evil, how Allah will help the Muslims win, how all the world should be Islamic, how all infidels should die, how Islam once ruled from the Atlantic to the Pacific, parts of Europe, India and even the United States and Carribean Islands (Yes People, he claimed it was true, man I felt like I was in a Psych ward).”

So, if I understand well, a “colleague of yours” all of a sudden tell you how to be a good Muslim assuming you were one. Of course he saw your skin tone and that immediately led him to think you were Muslim (hell almost all Indians are Muslims). And also all of a sudden, without being sure if you were Muslim or not, he begins to tell you how “Infidels must die”. Like that. Bluntly. To a mere “colleague” he “assumed” to be Muslim. And he told you how Islam have once ruled “the Caribbeans”.

Am I the only one to think this is a made up story? Yeah, I guess so.

Do you know you made up this story, or do you really believe this “Muslim colleague” exists?

Do you have invisible friends, too?

Posted by: Ispanan at January 18, 2006 8:18 AM

Neo-nazis ~ these are the ones people at JW worry about... the ones who WILL pick up arms against us.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=52636194&cdi=0

Posted by: Borg at January 18, 2006 8:42 AM

Hate is a natural instinct like hunger, fear, joy, or lust. These emotions are necessary for the survival of every species. For if you do not fear, and even hate your enemies, those who are sworn to kill you, you are exposing your self to great danger.

Posted by: GFB at January 18, 2006 9:08 AM

"Recently a colleague of mine, who doesn't know me too well, began preaching Islam to me and how I should be a good Muslim.

He went on about how the West is evil, how Allah will help the Muslims win, how all the world should be Islamic, how all infidels should die, how Islam once ruled from the Atlantic to the Pacific, parts of Europe, India and even the United States and Carribean Islands (Yes People, he claimed it was true, man I felt like I was in a Psych ward).

Then cream of the crop was when he stated how he looks at me as a brother because I am a "Muslim". It killed him when I said "When did I say I was a Muslim? I am not a Muslim, I am a Hindu *Smile*, and a Rajput at that *Big smile*."
-- from a posting by Gorkhali above

Next time someone mistakes you for a fellow Muslim, have a hidden recorder at hand. Tape the whole thing. Should be useful, to all sorts of people. Clearly this colleague is a permenant security risk. Is he a citizen?

Perhaps you can find ways to meet otherswho will make the same mistake about you, and this time, you can come away with a little something to remember them by.

Posted by: Hugh at January 18, 2006 9:08 AM

Robert:

I always did like Herman's Hermits. I have always enjoyed "Mrs Brown You've Got a Lovely Daughter". But please, do not sing this in front of any young, muslims males. I am sure you can understand why.

Posted by: GFB at January 18, 2006 9:19 AM

I'll speak for myself - and not for Jihad Watch - as far as being '''hateful'''...

From the Koran - CAIR's so called """"holy"""" book:

005.051 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors {authorities]: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

I HATE CAIR's god's teachings - with a PERFECT HATRED! CAIR is violating ALL international humanitarian laws for supporting such a HATE-FILLED preaching!

From the Koran - CAIR's so called """"holy"""" book:

033.061 They [non-Muslims] shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy. {Vicious Mass Murder!

I HATE CAIR's god's teachings - with a PERFECT HATRED! and CAIR is violating ALL international humanitarian laws for supporting the incitement of such brutal bloody preachings!

From the Koran - CAIR's so called """"holy"""" book:

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war [slay them first] until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. {Clear Treason!!!! in America

I HATE CAIR's god - with a PERFECT HATRED!

CIAR stands for Treason in America! and is violating the Untied States of America's Constitution!

From the Koran - CAIR's so called """"holy"""" book:

002.216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing [war] which is good for you and that ye love a thing [peace] which is bad for you?

I HATE CAIR's god's teachings with a PERFECT HATRED! - those teachings bring war - which brings poverty, misery and sorrows!

From the Koran - CAIR's so called """"holy"""" book:

047.004 Therefore, when ye meet '''the Unbelievers''' in fight, smite at their necks. [Behead them!]

I HATE CAIR's god more than words can say! Only a MONSTER could carry such an exceedingly wicked and bloody act!

And only a MONSTER would preach it!

CAIR stands by that MONSTER - so who are they to judge ANYONE or ANYTHING when it comes to the word Hate???

Posted by: Beth at January 18, 2006 9:27 AM

"AND NICK GRIFFEN RISKS JAIL FOR SPEAKING OUT"

hattip to non-British Jihadwatch readers - Nick Griffen is the head of a fascist, racialist , white supremacist political party.

bear that in mind folks.

Personally speaking, I dont give a damn about freedom-hating Nazi scum like him.

Posted by: archduke at January 18, 2006 9:30 AM

Emoting, especially with capitalization, does not further an argument or persuade those who may visit this site, unsure of what they may think, but are open to persuasion. Those who think that they are performing a service by such postings should think again.

Posted by: Hugh at January 18, 2006 9:32 AM

Those who are not weak on speaking PURE HATRED for the teachings of beheadings - incitement to carry out mass murder, treason, rape, and theft are the ones who really making any difference when it comes to Muslims blowing up major real estate, attacking night clubs, schools [even shooting children in their backs as they flee] hospitals, buses, malls etc ect ect.

Posted by: Beth at January 18, 2006 9:41 AM

i cant re-iterate this more - racialism is not the right path to beating Islam.

Islam has a very powerful propaganda weapon - the concept of the "Ummah".

We also have a concept - its called "freedom". And that is the birth right of every human being on the planet.

Posted by: archduke at January 18, 2006 9:44 AM

It seems to me that Saudi Arabia could have figured out a way to prevent Haj deaths considering that this has happened every year for over a thousand years.

As for commentary -- advocating eternal vigilance against those that threaten our existence is not bigotry nor hatred; It's common sense. I consider changes brought about to further religious accommodation for Muslims, a tiny minority, to be examples of such a threat. The practical application of their ideology has made our lives more difficult, dangerous, and uncomfortable -- totally unacceptable.

Posted by: epg at January 18, 2006 9:47 AM

I have never beheaded anyone. I have never encouraged anyone else to behead anyone. I have never turned a blind eye towards the beheading of anyone. I have never tried to justify the beheading of anyone. I have never secretly rejoiced at the beheading of anyone.

I am not puffing up my virtue, simply because i have not committed such outrages. Most people can claim as much. I am only an average person. But as an average person, I see and hear strange things in the news every day, things that I don't understand and which disgust me with their violence, arrogance and hatred. I hope to have the courage to speak my mind, no matter what intimidation may be brought to bear.

Practicing my right to speak freely and respectfully in the face of intimidation? Now that may come to be a real virtue. Seeing this virtue spread throughout the world? Now there's a dream worth dreaming

Posted by: Chatillon at January 18, 2006 9:55 AM

Hugh is right that we need to collect verifiable data, from Muslims themselves, about their beliefs and values. We can get this information using a variety of techniques.

Detailed qualitative information can be obtained in one-on-one interviews.

There's plenty of information on the Muslim websites and fora (i.e., those places where non-Muslims are routinely referred to as "shaitans".)

Most immediately, though, we need a continuation of the ability to monitor mosques surreptitiously. This gives us the most vital information we need as to what the clerics are preaching, etc.

There are the PEW polls. We need similar polls to be conducted sampling Muslim and non-Muslim populations within the modern secular countries, with a more detailed set of questions. What about dishonest responses? What about responses out of ignorance? While no methods are fool-proof, there are ways to address these issues in the design of the questionnaire.

What do so-called moderate Muslims really believe about freedom of expression that is critical of Islamic ideology? Do Muslims say they believe the Koran? Are they willing to follow the Koran? Do they even know what's in the Koran? Do non-Muslims know what's in the Koran? Such questionnaires give us a chance to put a reasonable quantitative estimate to these sorts of questions.

Ispanan,

How about being participant number 1?
Here's a brief sample of some questions:
1: "Do you identify yourself as a Muslim?"
2. "Have you read the Koran?"
3. "If you answered "yes" to question 2, Do you believe all of the Koran?"
4. "If you answered "no" to question 3, which parts of the Koran do you disbelieve?"

Note: Evading these questions in your response, if you do respond, also provides information.

Posted by: Archimedes at January 18, 2006 10:13 AM

I'm delighted that twice at this thread a poster has brought to everyone's attention my suggestion that Arabic-speaking Christians from Iraq, and elsewhere in the Arab world who are suffering from Muslim persecution (possibly Copts, or even Maronites should they wish), and that non-Arab Christians in even greater numbers, settle in the West Bank, under Israeli protection and sovereignty, while the Muslim Arabs -- most of whom can trace their ancestry back to Arab arrivals, from 1900-1935, from Iraq, or Egypt, or what is present0-day Jordan, and not to some "since-time-immemmorial" presence of the recently-invented "Palestinian people."

It would be a good way for the world's Christians to physicaly lay claim to the Holy Land, for the Muslim persecution of local Christians, now that they no longer feel quite the need to retain the facade of such "islamochristians" as Hanan Ashrawi, Naim Ateek, and othes.

And since some of these Arab "islamochristians" are far more loyal to Islam, as the "Arab regligion," and to the agenda of Muslims, than they are to Christian interests, such a proposal would serve to exposte the real nature of their intrests and attitudes. Would or could Naim Ateek or Hanan Ashrawi or any of those burrowing within, all over the Western world, the bureaucracies of various churches, come out in favor of Christian refugees from Islam settling in the West Bank, and the Muslims, in a kind of "exchange of populations moved across the river into Jordan or Eastern Palestine? Would Ateek and Michel Sabbagh and the others of that islamochristian ilk publicly oppose the settlement of non-Arab Christians, either permanently or for limited periods (say, devout Christians willing to spend five years at a time, as human witnesses to Christ, and protectors of the Holy Land, in the West Bank)?

There is no better way to separate out the real Christians from the islamochristians who, for two reasons -- a long history of behaving as dhimmis, trying to placate the circumambient threatening Muslims, and from an identification with their supposed "Arabness" that leads them, further, to overlook the Arab Muslim mistreatment of Christians, and as "Arabs" to support or defend Islam, which is so identified, so wrapped up in, for many (not Maronites, and not Copts), with the idea of being an "Arab."

Glad to have the issue revived here, and brought again to everyone's attention. Robert may find it "utopian." I don't.

Posted by: Hugh at January 18, 2006 10:49 AM

Looking for a symbol to unite anti-jihadists? I think the Culpepper flag is already in use for that purpose.
http://www.batteryhillflagcompany.com/flagpages/americanunion/culpepperflag.shtml

Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 18, 2006 10:58 AM

By the way Batteryhill flag co. just happens to provide the Culpepper flag, there are many more companies that provide the same flag. The use of the Culpepper flag by anti-jihadists is probably unknown to most of these companies....so you CAIR sorts should not blame the flag companies for any sort of imagined "hate crime".

Posted by: Carolyn2 at January 18, 2006 11:09 AM

Okay, I took the head off a mug of beer. Oh, the shame of it all. But I paid for it later, the bar tab!!

Posted by: Ironman Hondo at January 18, 2006 11:20 AM

Isn't it time that CAIR sorted out their own house before criticising others?

If they want to look at real hate sites, then they should complain about the multitudinous Islamist websites hosted in America which constantly espouse violence, death (to infidels) and jihad.

People who live in glass houses should never start throwing stones.

I've yet to see CAIR stand up and wholeheartedly condemn Islamic terrorism, organise rallies against Islamic terrorism or condemn the koran which espouses the violent jihad.

They'll whine if someone spills coffee on a koran or throws it down on a table in the wrong way, but they've mentioned nothing about bibles being desecrated by Muslims, or shredded when Christian visitors go to countries like Saudi Arabia.

It's time that CAIRites learnt to assimilate, integrate and become productive members of society instead of just criticing everyone for what they perceive as "Islamophobia" when, in fact, most of the time people just tell the truth.

Minority groups should stop trying to dictate to the majority, because in the end, the majority wins!

Posted by: Jerusalem Posts at January 18, 2006 11:30 AM

The problem with the Culpepper Flag - fine though it is and please don't think I am insulting USA history because I'm not - is that is has no resonance elsewhere in the English speaking world. It would be nice to have a symbol that all English speakers can identify with - hopefully all anti-Mohammedans, but that might be asking too much.

Alternatively, perhaps we all SHOULD adopt the Culpepper Flag. Could some well-versed USA poster give this non-USA person some history of this particular flag (or a link to its history) please.

Posted by: Certiorari at January 18, 2006 11:32 AM

Ispanan -

Of course, there is always Hugh's article "Islam for the Perplexed" - not written, as far as I can tell, as an "alternative" to Tancredo's suggestion.

"The second important goal is to stop all Moslem migration from Moslem lands, to the U.S., to Canada, to Western Europe. For obvious reasons, Moslems do not migrate to Eastern Europe and Russia. If possible, not only should migration be stopped, but life can be made more difficult, if not by the government, then by private individuals, so that Moslems will be discouraged from remaining.

What do I mean? I mean that we, as private citizens, do not have to hire Moslems, we do not have to buy their goods, or make their lives, economically, more rewarding. It may seem mean, and many of you may be offended by it, and I am perfectly aware that there are nice Moslems, that there are those who simply ignore the main tenets of Islam. But as a group, the Moslems are a threat to me and those I love. Even the innocent ones, merely by being here, swell Moslem political power."

In the St. Petersburg Times article that was recently linked to on JihadWatch, Robert Spencer said that "he bans" the "racists" who visit his site. Both quotes from him. Now, I know there are many among you who will say "Muslim" is a not a race. Clearly true, but the quote was in the context of people who are bigoted against Muslims. (To put this in context, the definition of Anti-Semitism in the M-W dictionary is: "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group." I'll assume good faith in your statement and assume you meant the same, just replacing the word "Jews" with "Muslims")

Seems that Hugh, "as a group, the Moslems are a threat to me and those I love", qualifies.

Mr. Spencer: Will you a) clarify whether you also hold similar opinions to those above and b) ban Hugh from JihadWatch as one of the "racists" you claim to abhor?

Will you also make an unconditional statement that you are against those who hold or practice "hostility toward or discrimination against any religious, ethnic, or racial group, including Muslims"?

Thank you.

Posted by: RickS at January 18, 2006 11:38 AM

I admit it - I'm guilty and I went to jail for what follows too!

I and a few of my conspiratorial compatriots "borrowed" a cast aluminum bull statue standing 6 feet (2 metres) tall and hoisted it up the flag pole of our high school. It was heavy but four dudes could easily hoist it back down - so what.

We secured it with two crytonite locks, chains and the keys twist tied to the locks. 1) So that it wouldn't come crashing down on anyone 2) So they could get it down when ready and do so without having to cut through the locks.

Unexpectedly, the police showed up just as we finished. The officers laughed their asses off - scolded us for how dangerous that appeared to be and then we spent the night in the local jail.

I'd really have to dig for the police reports - or at least the newspaper clipping of a metal bull hanging on the end of a flagpole but Robert - it's yours if I can find it!

I'm guilty of an act of terror...or at least an audacious act of reversable vandalism. Ooooooooh! I'm evil - eeeeeeeeeeeevil I tell you!

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at January 18, 2006 11:54 AM

RickS,

My guess is that if you want to ensure that Spencer will (a) see your question and (b) answer it in this thread you'll have to get his attention through e-mail.

BTW, have you read the Koran yet? (I genuinely want to know).

Posted by: Archimedes at January 18, 2006 12:09 PM

"I would like to suggest that there is a badge that anyone committed to secular, western style democracy can wear in the lapel. It is plain, stark white, that is to say no lettering or design of any sort; it is half-an-inch high and between one-and-a-half and two inches long (wide); it is, therefore, rectangular."

-- posted by Certiorari

Certirari,

The sentiments are fine. The plain white badge turns me off, frankly. Not to be harsh, but in my view this design seems to symbolize belief in nothing.

What I would suggest in its place, is the symbol of the "White Tree of Gondor." That would be catchy (though hard to fabricate), recognizable in the world at large, and not explicitly tied to any other religion or creed (though inspired by the Judeao-Christian concepts that gave succor to liberal democracy).

And, of course, we all know who the Orcs are-- they were once elves, but were twisted into evil, ignoble, and violent opposites fanatically determined to conquer all of Middle Earth, under the rule of the monstrous Sauron. Sound familiar?

This alternative might be legally problematic, however--I am not sure about the copyright implications relative to the estate of H.R.R. Tolkien.

Posted by: Stendec at January 18, 2006 12:28 PM

Archimedes -

Thank you - good idea.

Re: the Quran, yes I have read it. I don't dispute the fact that the much quoted verses are in there. I also don't think that what is in the Quran is any worse than what is found in the Bible (esp the Old Testament). All Muslims that I know believe in the Quran literally, but also have a very strong grasp of the concept of context - that much of the Quran was day to day instruction at the time it was revealed, while other partss were eternal mandates. Almost all of the verses quoted by those who want to demonize it fall into the former.

I do dispute the idea that the quoted constitute a majority of the verses, and I doubt the motives of people, like Spencer, who emphasize that without a single mention of the mo