“It is as if a woman was being raped — are you telling her, don’t use the scissors? Use what is available to you.”

Well that's a bit rich after what happened to that poor girl in Iran, who is to hang for defending herself against rapists.

I'm on jury service next week - what a shame it isn't this case. I'll probably get some old lady up for pinching a bottle of gin from Tesco.

Posted by: Interested at January 21, 2006 8:37 AM

The proof is in the pudding.

Who talks about peaceful Muslims? Only those who are complaining that Islam is getting about rap.

Posted by: JoeB at January 21, 2006 8:39 AM

That should have been "a bad rap".

Posted by: JoeB at January 21, 2006 8:40 AM

"Suicide is a legitimate tactic." No one should be suprised for this, an worse, are what history has demonstrated as to be expected when dealing with Muslims. Contemporary world events demonstrate the same pattern. If it quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, well you know the rest. Having these people present in the West is insane!

Posted by: epg at January 21, 2006 8:54 AM

EPG...... I agree with most of your post *but* I think having muslims on this planet is insane. I would be all for shooting them all off into space except they'd be intercepted by a war fleet that would then come here and kick our asses for trying to give them our problem.;)

Posted by: fireangel at January 21, 2006 9:12 AM

I would be fairly impressed with this concept if imams like Abu Hamza actually got off their smug faces and donned a C4 belt and practised what they preach. But they do not!

Instead of the prostateridden, microphallic, hateridden misogynists doing the world a favour by spreading their noxious body contents over a large area they seek out brainwashed idealistic children, youths or "fallen 'women to do their dirty work and throw their head about 20 to 100ms from the rest of their anatomy

How can anyone have any respect for these miserable excuses for human beings who persuade such innocents to do so?

It must take great courage to send women and children out to do the work of grown men who think their worth too high to sacrifice themselves.

I personally think that the world court should take action against Islam for being the basis of the justification for these atrocities. But naturally no one will do anything except scrape up the remants of these poor deluded fools and their victims. God is great!! religion of peace!!
What total and utter garbage!!

Posted by: Zathras at January 21, 2006 9:18 AM

From the TMIES UK article also ..
Abu Hamza's remarks, which the prosecution alleges amount to an attempt to stir up racial hatred against the Jewish people, were, Mr Fitzgerald said, a reference to the Hadith - sayings of the Prophet Muhammad - in which fighting between Jews and Muslims is predicted.

The Hadith says that the trees will call out to the Muslims 'there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him'.

The defence counsel said this was 'a highly unusual case' because unlike most prosecutions for incitement to murder it did not involve someone telling a specific person to kill an identifiable individual.
..................................................
Why aren't we going after mosques here which preach only just EXACTLY what the KKK and Aryan Nation did?

HATE. Civil suits. Large BREAKING financial settlements. Aryan nation is GONE today because of this

Posted by: epaminondas at January 21, 2006 9:31 AM

epaminondas good point!!

But these swine hide behind the facade of religion thanks to our various naive constitutions which allow even a hatefilled violent religion to exist free of pressure.

The only tack that i see is for families of murdered individuals to start suing various mosques directly related to the killing. There will not be many of these but there will be enough and money is what will hurt them.

However in the long term it must be shown that islam is a totaliatarian politicial system masquerading as a religion and if someone had the courage to investigate this and launch a legal case it could become very interesting although the oil lobby will run scared and do their best to block it as will the politicians they fund.

Posted by: Zathras at January 21, 2006 9:42 AM

I’m glad you issued this challenge again.

Where is this moderate Islam that we are told is the mainstream view accepted by all except a few extremists? Did we miss the “elephant in the room?” And please, Islamic apologists, don't give us obscure writers hiding out of view, or charming Canadian would-be reformers winning the hearts of but a few young Westerners, or liars who say one thing in English and another in Arabic. Give us someone who can come to grips with the example of Mohammad and repudiate, without spin, the horrors of his legacy. And someone who has influenced a sustainable transforation. Is that too much to ask?

Posted by: JasonP at January 21, 2006 11:02 AM

I don't have the time to look for all the things you mentioned but isn't this an example of condemnation?

Don't Abuse the Concept of Jihad: Grand Mufti

RIYADH, 22 August 2003

Saudi Arabia's highest religious authority urged Muslims yesterday to shun extremism and avoid waging unjustified jihad as the Kingdom cracks down on militants.

In a lengthy statement, Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh told Saudis to listen to their religious authorities and ignore fanatical interpretations of Islam.

"One of the fallouts from extremism in understanding Islam is that some people call for jihad for the sake of God without justification" Sheikh Abdul Aziz said.

"These people raise the banner of jihad to draw the young into their ranks and not to fight for God," he added.

Militants like Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden have often called for jihad against countries they consider "infidel" such as the United States, urging his followers to target Western interests in Saudi Arabia and abroad.

Other militants have also used Islam as a rallying cry, justifying
attacks by saying they are doing God's will.

"Young Muslims must try and better themselves and their country but not through violence, because Islam is not a violent religion, it is a merciful religion," he said.

"A Muslim must understand his religion. It is the duty of the young and the whole Muslim world to know that violence is not a way to achieve reform," Al-Sheikh said.

The grand mufti emphasized that the struggle against a perceived evil should not lead to a greater evil.

"The Prophet (peace be upon him) told us to combat evil. But there is a general rule to look at both advantages and disadvantages. And if fighting an evil leads to a greater one, then that fight is forbidden," he said.

The grand mufti said one of the reasons some people attacked and
frightened others was ignorance.

"Ignorance is a killer disease because a person thinks that he is right when he is wrong," he said and stressed the importance of right guidance. "One of the reasons also is mistrust of our scholars. It is people's duty to trust their scholars and leaders," he said.

Last week, the Kingdom's highest Islamic authority denounced terror attacks in the Kingdom, describing them as "serious criminal acts," and pledged its full support for the government.

"Acts of sabotage such as bombings, murder and destruction of property are serious criminal acts and an aggression against innocent people... which warrant severe and deterrent punishment," the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars said in a statement.

The 17-member council, headed by the grand mufti, declared its support for the actions being taken by the state to track down terrorists in an effort to shield the country from their actions.

The Islamic body had called on the Saudi people to "stand behind the country's leadership and their scholars," at these difficult times in the fight against "evildoers."

The statement dubbed "misguided and ignorant" those who claim that terrorism was part of jihad, or holy war.

It said people who provide shelter to suspected militants were committing a "grave sin."

SAUDI ARABIA: JIHAD IN IRAQ WRONG SAYS GRAND MUFTI

Jeddah, 19 Sept. (AKI) - Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Asheikh, Saudi Arabia's grand mufti, has spoken out against those seeking to sow civil war in neighbouring Iraq. "Adding to the bloodshed and murder of innocents by planes and bombs are attempts by suspicious parties to trigger sectarian tension between the people of Iraq,” said Al-Asheikh who was quoted by the Arab News daily.

These jihadists were trying to stoke intra-religious clashes “to serve the aims of the enemies conspiring against Muslims,” al-Asheikh argued. Al-Qaeda's number one in Iraq, the Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, declared an all-out war against Shiites in an audio recording posted to the Internet last week.

Besides al-Asheikh, Iraq’s main Sunni Arab religious authority, the Committee of Muslim Scholars, has also condemned al-Zarqawi’s declaration.

The number of Saudi militants fighting against the US-led coalition in Iraq is currently falling, according to the findings of a study published in the Saudi daily al-Watan, a copy of which has been sent to Iraq's interim government.

There are currently 350 Saudi fighters, out of a total 3,000 foreign insurgents, according to the study prepared by the Saudi security advisor Nawaf Abid and American expert Antony Kwimin. Between 2003 and 2005, 50 percent of foreign insurgents killed in Iraq were Saudis, according to a study published on Islamist websites.

The highest number of foreign insurgents fighting in Iraq are now Algerians (20 percent) followed by Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent), and Egyptians (13 percent), according to Abid and Kwimin's study.

July 15, 2003
Islamic Scholars Condemn Terrorism
Very often the most prominent Islamic scholars that are seen in the West are those who condemn the West, attack Western actions, and call upon Muslims to engage in jihad against the West - even to the point of engaging in suicide attacks against civilian targets. That is not, however, the only sort of religious leader or scholar that exists in the Muslim world; many more condemn such violence. It is a shame that their voices are not heard often enough, but a number of them met in Malaysia recently to discusses these problems.

Jointly they issued a stringing attack on those who encourage violence in the name of Islam. The Strait Times quotes Dr. Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, the sheikh of Al-Azhar University and Egypt's most senior cleric:

Extremism is the enemy of Islam. Whereas jihad is allowed in Islam to defend one's land, to help the oppressed, the difference between jihad in Islam and extremism is like the earth and the sky. ...We do not see any obstacles to stop the West from benefiting from the East, the East taking from Western civilisation, or the North taking from the South, as long as these cultures make humans happier and make them better persons.

Those are fine sentiments, to be sure; the question is, will Muslims in the street actually listen to and heed them? Do these more less extremist clerics offer a political, social, economic, and religious vision which is compatible with the needs of Muslims in the Arab world? If not, then Muslims will look elsewhere for leadership - and probably to the extremists who have made a career out of trying to offer explanations for and answers to those needs

Posted by: Ispanan at January 21, 2006 11:31 AM

Ispanan,

Define "justified" and "innocent" (cited in your article) in the Koranic definitions of those terms. Otherwise, this statement, and your spam-presentation of it, are meaningless attempts at public-relations damage control.

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 11:58 AM

Ispanan,
I don't have time to correct your attempt
at damage control, but the answer is no. Read
what was written, it's spelled out, with italics
to help propagandists like you to address the
talking points.

Also, you'll need to check your sources,
because so often a pleasant sounding mohammadan
preaching interfaith peace in the West returns
to his islamic hell hole later to keep singing
the same old song. We're not going to take it.

Posted by: American at January 21, 2006 12:57 PM

Another such reformer today might be Irshad Manji, who, as far as I can tell, has absolutely no method for directly dealing with jihad obligation and ideology in the Qur'an and Hadith, including the glorification of martrydom, something heavily stressed by Mohammad. Somehow, Manji thinks, reviving the supposed Islamic tradition of 'itjihad', free and critical inquiry, might allow Muslims to break away from literalist readings of the Qur'an and the ideology of jihadists. (And Manji does a very poor job of explaining just what these traditions and ideology are and their roots in the Qur'an and Sunnah.) But how could critical thinking do this? Why disregard jihad obligation, Sura 9, for example, and the many, many hadith? Why disregard Sura 4 on women? Why disregard the moral example of Mohammad regarding gender roles, polygamy, or, the acceptability of taking female slaves as war booty, the assassination of political opponents, the mass murder of captives? How will 'being critical and open-minded' make these texts go away? What will one do with them?

In any case, Manji herself surely wants to rid Islam of the above influences, somehow, by 'critical thinking'. Well, here is an example of the way Manji's views are handled, not by well meaning Muslims, who want to either ignore or think away such things as jihad, oppression of women, the unbridgeable divide between believers and non-believers, and all the rest (one hopes), but by powers guided by pure Islamic principles. This comes off Manji's Web Site:

"I live in Dubai. I'm about to return there from Toronto and will bring your book with me as it's not available in the UAE. You know what else isn't available? Access to your website. This is the message I get when I try to log on:

We apologize that the site you are attempting to visit has been blocked due to its content being inconsistent with the religious, cultural, political and moral values of the United Arab Emirates."

Manji book, it seems, is available for free download in Arabic. And what defines "the religious, cultural, political and moral values" of the UAE?

Guess...

Posted by: JTF at January 21, 2006 12:58 PM

Ispanan just give out the urls as it saves webspace.

eg

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/JIHAAD/dont_abuse_the_concept_of_jihad.htm

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Religion&loid=8.0.209585180&par=0

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/008101.htm

All of us here really do wish that Islam was a"religion of peace" but it really does not look like it is.

Why don't you try to actively change not only the perception of Islam in the west but change its actuality?

Remove the Arab based violence sura from the Koran including the dar al harb concept
with its world islamic domination plans and leave only the peaceful ones. Then enforce this upon your extremists until they are silenced.

Then we might believe that you are all quite serious about peace. But then if you continue to have children at 2-3x the rate of your adopted country you will take it over anyway within 100 years wont you? Damn nuisance those extremists making us aware of Islam :))

Posted by: Zathras at January 21, 2006 1:01 PM

Robert: " He hoped modern-day Muslims would set these aside and live by the general principles delivered at Mecca. Were Taha's ideas accepted, most of the Shari'a would disappear, including outdated provisions concerning warfare, theft, and women. Muslims could then more readily modernize. That's great. Pipes neglected to mention, however, that Taha was arrested and executed for heresy."

Taha was a lonely voice in the wilderness. Yes, it is certainly worth noting what happened to Taha's courageous voice in the wilderness.

Taha was ANNIHILIATED in the name of Islam. Annhiliation is the eventual fate that awaits reformist minded Muslims in Sudan or in any other location in the world.

It baffles me that the west can't figure this out. Many people in the west believe that Islam can reform itself as it gains acceptance in the west. This is clearly false thinking that is destined to bring about unforseen consequences in the future.

Many Muslim scholars in the west promote this kind of message and yet are rarely challenged to explain the ambiguities in the message of the Koran or in the principles of sharia, jihad, etc. The west needs to learn more about the truth of Islam from Robert Spencer than from misinformed religious figures like Abu Hamza.

The Koran is a flawed book that gives Muslims the inspiration to wage a jihad or commit a suicide attack against innocent civilians. Unless the Koran is revised or completely discarded, then the west and the rest of the civilzed world will constantly be under attack from Muslims. This is the hard truth that few are willing to absorb or contemplate.

Westerners need to understand the Koran for what it really is: a plagiarized religious book from Judaism and Christianity that was altered by 7th century Arabs to advance an Arab civilization over the other dominant civiilzations.

Posted by: Johnathan at January 21, 2006 1:10 PM

Irshad Manji only superficially looks at the subject. Unfortunately she is a lesbian who is not exactly revered by the islamic community and so they do not take a great deal of notice of her.

I asked her myself would she have had the same attitudes had she not been gay and I received no answer.

Even though it was supeficial it was brave of her to do so and a real step in the right direction but alas mostly westerners read her book not Muslims for whom it was meant.

So all in vain here I think.

For any such ideas to be even noticed by the average Muslim you have to have someone with an islamic reputation and who is held in high esteem by the Islamic community and who has audience power because of this. We need a brave islamic Luther in a Ghandi presentation.

Anyone wnat to calculate the odds here?

Posted by: Zathras at January 21, 2006 1:14 PM

That argument shouldn't fly.
Other groups and individuals in the UK (Sir Ikkie and the BNP) are in trouble because of statements about "groups as a whole".

The same can, and should, apply to Hamza.

I loved the part where the idiot defense uses the "it's only the Koran" excuse. Might get a few folks wondering about the Islam is a religion of peace mantra.

Way to go, Defense!

Posted by: treehugger at January 21, 2006 1:23 PM

Verses that could be interpreted as forbidding suicide of believers:

2:195. (Believers) do not cast yourselves into destruction.
4:29. (Believers) Do not kill yourselves or bring yourselves to destruction.
4:93. Intentional killing of a believer is forbidden.

However, these verses were not revealed in reference to jihad. Obviously, Muslims are required to put their lives on the line for jihad (see below).

Also note that

The penalty for killing a believer is life-for-life retaliation (5:45). There is no penalty in the Koran for killing a disbeliever.

Disbelief is the worst crime (as stated many times in the Koran), worse than killing a Muslim.

Allah does not forbid suicide of disbelievers; indeed, He tells disbelievers to commit suicide (22:15)!

However, the question is “Is there Islamically-justified cause for a Muslim to carry out a suicide attack against non-Muslims?”

The simple answer is that, if the context is jihad (fighting to make Allah’s word supreme), then yes, it’s justified. Fighting can be carried out in the Land of War, if necessary (i.e., if conversion and dhimmitude are refused, or if the expression of the Islamic religion is impeded) or in an attempt to reclaim any land that was ever Land of Islam.

Certainly, kamakazi-style attacks against the disbelievers were approved and were to be rewarded, if the intent was to make the word of Allah supreme (i.e., carried out with the intention of fulfilling the most important goal of Islam, which is to destroy disbelief, polytheism).

For example,

Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4678: It has been reported on the authority of Jabir that a man said: Messenger of God, where shall I be if I am killed? He replied: In Paradise. The man threw away the dates he had in his hand and fought until he was killed (i.e. he did not wait until he could finish the dates).

Verses that could be interpreted to condone suicide attacks against non-Muslims in the jihad context.

Allah tests believers by compelling them to kill unbelievers (8:17); true believers will kill or be killed for Allah. Allah could punish the disbelievers directly, but instead he tests some people (believers) by using other people (disbelievers); those believers who are slain in battle will be rewarded (47:4). Allah uses the prospect of battle to find out what is in men’s hearts; disbelievers stay away from the fight, but true believers go into the fight. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded (3:154-159; 3:167-172).

4:66-77. (Believers) slay yourselves in Allah’s cause and you will receive a vast reward (Paradise). Note, al-Jalalayn’s tafsir, (4:66) says “slay yourselves” (in Allah’s cause).

4:66 (Pickthall) “And if We had decreed for them: Lay down your lives or go forth from your dwellings, but few of them would have done it; though if they did what they are exhorted to do it would be better for them, and more strengthening;

{al-Jalalayn, tafsir, 4:66: And had We prescribed for them: (the particle an, 'that', is explicative) 'Slay yourselves' or 'Leave your habitations,', as We did for the Children of Israel, they would not have done it, that is, what has been prescribed for them, save a few (read nominative qalīlun, as a substitution; or read accusative qalīlan, as an exceptive clause) of them; yet if they had done what they were admonished to do, of obedience to the Messenger (s), it would have been better for them, and stronger in establishing, [a stronger] confirmation of their faith.}

4:67 And then We should bestow upon them from Our presence an immense reward,
4:68 And should guide them unto a straight path.
4:69 Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!
4:70 That is bounty from Allah, and Allah sufficeth as Knower.
4:71 O ye who believe! Take your precautions, then advance the proven ones, or advance all together.
4:72 Lo! among you there is he who loitereth; and if disaster overtook you, he would say: Allah hath been gracious unto me since I was not present with them.
4:73 And if a bounty from Allah befell you, he would surely cry, as if there had been no love between you and him: Oh, would that I had been with them, then should I have achieved a great success!
4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

{al-Jalalayn, tafsir, 4:74: So let them fight in the way of God, to elevate His religion, those who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of God and is slain, dies a martyr, or conquers, overcomes his enemy, We shall give him a great wage, a plentiful reward.}

4:75 How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender!
4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.”

{al-Jalalayn, 4:76: Those who believe fight in the way of God, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of a false deity, Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan, the supporters of his religion and you will defeat them with the strength you draw from God; surely the plotting of Satan, against believers, is ever feeble, of no substance, and cannot stand up to God's plotting against the disbelievers.}

4:77 Hast thou not seen those unto whom it was said: Withhold your hands, establish worship and pay the poordue, but when fighting was prescribed for them behold! a party of them fear mankind even as their fear of Allah or with greater fear, and say: Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordained fighting for us ? If only Thou wouldst give us respite yet a while! Say (unto them, O Muhammad): The comfort of this world is scant; the Hereafter will be better for him who wardeth off (evil); and ye will not be wronged the down upon a date-stone.”

If all of that isn’t clear eneough, there’s more. It is expected that, in the context of jihad, that believers must slay or be slain for Allah because they are bound by divine contract to do so (9:111). Whether believers like it or not, they must wage war against the disbelievers (2:216).

2:216 “Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.”

{al-Jalalayn: Prescribed for you, obligatory [for you], is fighting, disbelievers, though it be hateful to you, by nature, because of the hardship involved. Yet it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you; and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you: because the soul inclines towards those desires which result in its destruction and its rejection of the religious obligations that would bring about its happiness. Perhaps, then, even if you are averse to it, you will find much good in fighting, as a result of victory, booty, martyrdom or reward; while, if you were to reject fighting, even if you would like to do so, you will find much evil, because then you may be subjugated, impoverished and denied the reward; God knows, what is good for you, and you know, this, not, so strive in what He commands you.}

9:111 “Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.”

{al-Jalalayn: Indeed God has purchased from the believers their lives and their possessions, that they expend it in obedience of Him - for example by striving in His way - so that theirs will be [the reward of] Paradise: they shall fight in the way of God and they shall kill and be killed (this sentence is independent and constitutes an explication of the [above-mentioned] 'purchase'; a variant reading has the passive verb come first [sc. fa-yuqtalūna wa-yaqtulūn, 'they shall be killed and shall kill'], meaning that some of them are killed while those who remain, fight on); that is a promise which is binding (both [wa'dan, 'promise', and haqqan, 'binding'] are verbal nouns, and are in the accusative on account of their omitted [implicit] verbs) upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'ān; and who fulfils his covenant better than God?, that is, no one is better in fulfilling it. Rejoice then (there is a shift from the third [to second] person here) in this bargain of yours which you have made, for that, bargain, is the supreme triumph, the one that secures the ultimate goal.}

Conclusion (Archie's two cents worth):

While the Koran is not fully explicit on the issue of suicide bombing against non-Muslims, there are several reasons to think that it does approve it. Disbelief is worse than killing (2:191, 2:217). Disbelief is the worst crime in Islam (it receives the maximum penalty which is eternal hell-fire); and there is no penalty in the Koran for killing a disbeliever. Killing a disbeliever is a lesser crime than disbelief. Indeed, in the context of jihad, killing a disbeliever is given the highest reward. In the 4:66 passage (and subsequent verses), believers are told to slay themselves in Allah's cause. The ultimate goal of Islam is to make Islam supreme and to destroy disbelief (9:33, 48:28, 61:9; 8:39, 2:193). Any believer who carries out an action, including giving his own life, with the intention of helping to achieve this ultimate goal (jihad; including fighting and killing so that Allah’s name is supreme) will be rewarded (on the level of saints and prophets in Paradise) by Allah. If it’s good for Islam, and intended as such (and Allah knows a person’s intent), then it’s good. That seems to be the most straightforward interpretation.

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 2:22 PM

epaminondas, you say, Why aren't we going after mosques here which preach only just EXACTLY what the KKK and Aryan Nation did?

We can't do that, they have disguised their world conquring as a religion, using children to be their soldiers...and no one has woken up yet...
Can you imagine the force that would be out against an Australian, british, American, etc who tried suicide bombing Muslims, letalone had their children do their dirty work.
Our media, religious leaders, politicians of all makes, dooo goooders, greenies, tree huggers, save the whalesers, etc would all be horrified and no one would try it again... But although we hear Muslim clerics say that they will try to put a stop to it, their politicians keep quite and nothing is done by anyone,, I wonder why...There is no uproar from their media, politicians or the people... I wonder why, doesnt that make our people wake up... of course not...not until we are subdued..
As Islam is a total control, how can they say that theterrorists or gange rapists etc are Muslims who dont practice islam anymore,, dont they kill those who leave????

Posted by: Gaye at January 21, 2006 2:33 PM

Here is the key phrase from (4:65-69), “slay yourselves” (compare with 4:66 in my above post) from Arberry’s translation,

“…But had We prescribed for them, saying, 'Slay yourselves' or 'Leave your habitations,' they would not have done it, save a few of them; yet if they had done as they were admonished it would have been better for them, and stronger confirming them…”

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 2:43 PM

Regarding moderate progressive Islam:

Said Pipes: "Taha argued that specific Koranic rulings applied only to Medina, not to other times and places. He hoped modern-day Muslims would set these aside and live by the general principles delivered at Mecca. Were Taha's ideas accepted, most of the Shari'a would disappear, including outdated provisions concerning warfare, theft, and women. Muslims could then more readily modernize."

The idea that the earlier Meccan Suras are tolerant is largely false. 75 out of the 85 Suras assumed to be of Meccan origin each contain at least one statement of hate, or intolerance, or cruelty and violence, etc. The remainder are mostly lame attempts at poetry that are not concerned with policy-making.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 2:54 PM

Correction, typo in my conclusion

"Killing a disbeliever is a lesser crime than disbelief." (Archimedes at 2:22 PM)

That should say that "killing a believer is a terrible crime (given the death penalty), but disbelief is a worse crime than that."

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 3:18 PM

that gets me thinking - could i launch a prosecution against the Koran itself , under current UK race/religious hatred laws?

just a thought.

Posted by: archduke at January 21, 2006 4:17 PM

Extremely technocratic view ahead, but please bear with me. I worked as a software tester a few years ago, and to me Islam pretty much looks like closed loop. As I said in an earlied thread, I consider Islam not as much a religion but as a line-specific daily routine, for ex;

20 PRAY at XX:XX HOURS AM
30 PRAY at X1:XX HOURs AM
.
.
60 PRAY at XX:XX HOURS PM

Right as well, Islam is a do-don't do
rulebook.

70 DO
80 DO NOT do
90 DO NOT EAT

and so on. Now there could be a "harmless"
code section in it, but little does it help. Namely:

10 MICROCODE
5000 GOTO 10

This is, that the text is not interpreted by others but direct Allah's word to Profet. The code is embedded to the chip. Islam pretty much looks like this, I do not know about the line numbers but anyway:

10 MICROCODE
20 PRAY
30 PRAY
.
.
1000 DO
1100 DO NOT DO
1200 DO
1300 DO NOT EAT
.
.
.
2000 WOMEN WORTHLESS
2010 WOMEN EVER MOR WORTHLESS
.
.
.
4000 JIHAD
4010 LIE TO UNBELIEVER
4020 KILL THE UNBELIVER
.
.
5000 GOTO 10

That's how simple it is. No, that's all. Honest. How many thinkers, philosofers or any other personalities of signifigance has Islam produced ? None that I know of. It is a robotic program that's all. I've had muslim personnel on a work site and thinking provided by Islam-influence culture is monotonic. Yes, a muslim can be a good worker on assebly line or any given specific task. In some cases an outstanding one - given that instructions given to him are absolutely clear.

While the quaran is your operating manual - which cannot be reintrepreeted - you go line-by-line and there is no way you couldn't reach the line 4000. A muslim history, so far as I know, is a history in which seemingly calm population gets violent again. Even after decades or centuries somebody finds jihad again.

Now, what one can do - if there was political will enough - is to shut down individual code lines causing the code to crash. This is, the society simply bans something in Quoran and firmly enforces the ban. For ex:

1450 DO - BANNED !

I do not know exactly what kind or what amount of do's and don'ts there are in Quoran which could be crippled. But given there was a sufficient amount of them one should increase these bans steadily in such a way that the clerics get frustrated and the followers conclude that Quran cannot be followed. This could be possible in a different political climate, but go ask Bill Clinton if we could do this.

Posted by: Finn at January 21, 2006 4:29 PM

Finn,

LOL! Nice one! But the loop is self-preserving, e.g.,

This loop and its elements are not to be questioned/criticized

Anyone who tries to get out of the loop will be killed/doomed

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 4:54 PM

...and lots of what's in it is banned (e.g., slavery)

Posted by: Archimedes at January 21, 2006 4:55 PM

Now we know why Muslim students at Iranian universities excell at robotics: FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE!!!!

Well presented Finn!!

You can always throw in the haj, Ramadan, by doing more of the above. While the first tenet and apostasy punishment could be ensured by shooting the programmer(no more code) and then locking in a virus to kill the PC if the file is opened and examined.

How do we manage C4 mince spreaders and ululating masses of black crows? Easy!! put in a sound file with the "call to prayer" as usual mosque decibels every 4 hours and have a crescendo of ululating crows jump onto the screen if your fail to observe the program.

The program can also ask regularly:"Are you worthy enough? Do 72 virgins(or white raisins) appeal to you? Have you killed >1 unbeleiver ?
If yes to all three the PC explodes and you paint the walls of the room on your way to binary paradise(lots of bits/bytes)

Posted by: Zathras at January 21, 2006 8:47 PM

Very enlightening and interesting to observe two experts like Pipes and Spencer disagree or debate about Islam.

Posted by: eduardo odraude at January 21, 2006 11:38 PM

Realising just how incredibly stupid and obscene as well as cowardly these suicide bombers are. I wonder if someone could "sell" these imbecilic clowns and their hate-filled minders the idea of a 'training course?' for these suicide bombers.Just imagine these death loving stupid twits blowing themselves up on a suicide bombing range one after another, oh! bliss.
YES they do have the idiocy to fall for such swill. Any Christian out there a good salesperson? numbat

Posted by: numbat at January 21, 2006 11:51 PM

Numbat (after tassue devils and native tiger cats my 3rd favoiutite marsupial)

Do you remember the cartoon of a suicide bomber instructor saying to his students: "now watch this carefully as I am only going to do it once"?

Posted by: Zathras at January 22, 2006 1:42 AM

I see Ispanan has learned to copy and paste, but not how to debate. As I said in an earlier post, a functional illiterate. Interestingly if you Google the name Ispanan it is that of a female porn star, LOL!

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at January 22, 2006 11:32 PM