From article: Police said they have had evidence of the camps for years...

For years??????????

Posted by: duh_swami at February 7, 2006 12:01 PM

They are much more concerned with elitist activities like fox-hunting...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 7, 2006 12:04 PM

Ya' think?

More proof that Islam = extremism = Islam.

For some heartening news that maybe people are waking up read Wesley Pruden's article in the Washington Times at http://www.washtimes.com/national/pruden.htm.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 7, 2006 12:07 PM

Some may celebrate the conviction in UK courts of this warrior for Islam. I do not.

As long as the Muslim menace is treated as a legal and political affair, we will not bring sufficient force against our enemy to defeat him... We will only provide a modicum of impedance, and it will be inadequate. In fact, wheter convicted or not, by allowing the heinous likes of soldiers for Islam like Hook (in the UK) or Moussawi (in the US) to be tried in standard courts of law, we are signalling our refusal to take this confrontation out of the political realm and place it into the military and defense realm.

Was ever warfare in this manner won? We are fighting for our existence -- we are not having a political "dialogue" with Muslims! Why continue to treat it as such?

Posted by: jsla at February 7, 2006 12:09 PM

I should have mentioned that continuing to treat this as a political matter also plays into the Islamist's plans... While violence and terrorism is a tried and true method of Islamic expansionism, surely one of the most effective tactics of Islamic Jihad is the erosive power of the Muslim presence in non-Muslim domains. The attacked civilization, having seen the possible insanities which the Muslims reveal they are capable of, and wishing to avoid all out confrontations with these Muslim extortionists in their midst, will do just about anything to avoid all out war with them... This, also, is a reason we have chosen to treat this as a political and legal matter, rather than a matter of all out war.

The Muslims RELY on this quality in us to continue their fight against us!

Muslims have proven themselves adept at taking over shattered hell-holes like Afghanistan, and then bringing those hell holes down even further through the brutal application of Sharia laws... But the Muslims have historically shown great effectiveness at holding far superior and more civilized cultures hostage through the mere threat of violence... By handling Muslim traitors, seditionists, and all out warriors through political and legalistic modes rather than military modes, we are bowing to the implied Muslim threat of massive violence and unrest. The very fact these and many other verminous Islamic pigs have gained access to our legal system, regardless of the outcome, is a great victory for Islamic Jihad, and a great setback and capitulation for our side. It only provides the simulacrum of effectiveness, and triumph of the rule of law... But these are ephemeral at best. The Jihad continues unabated in our lands. The Jihad gains new "martyrs" to rally around. The Jihad can rely on a completely inviolate Muslim recruiting ground from among the unassailed, unthreatened, unassimilated, and unconcerned larger Muslim community...

We see simliar patterns today in India, Russia, Georgia, Italy, France, Germany, USA, Canada, UK, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Philippines, on and on... We are victims of our own openness when it comes to Islam. We are victims of our own laws when it comes to Islam. We are victims of our own plurality and tolerance when it comes to Islam. We are victims of our own forebearance when it comes to Islam.

Posted by: jsla at February 7, 2006 12:26 PM

Was ever warfare in this manner won? We are fighting for our existence -- we are not having a political "dialogue" with Muslims! Why continue to treat it as such?

Answers:

1) Oil

2) Multiculturalism (i.e., self-loathing Leftism)

3) The pervasive Fictive Reality wherein Unicorns bound over hedges on the lawns of Finsbury Park, Malmo, Paterson NJ, and Detroit (i.e., fraudulent intellectuals in academia and media outlets).

4) Islam's aggressive redifinition of the very concepts of religion and war, and our inability to adequately process and deal with these changes.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at February 7, 2006 12:29 PM

I think EVERY mosque in every western, democratic society should be systematically raided without prior warning. I bet most, if not all, of these mosques are being used as a weapons arsenal, and not for "peaceful" praying to their pedophile, rapist "God."

Every time I see a mosque in the NYC area (New Jersey, upstate NY, CT) I wonder what's going on in there... You know they're up to no good, and it pains me to see more mosques being built every day in ALL neighborhoods! They are infiltrating our societies under the guise of practicing their "peaceful" faith, but behind it all, they are scheming up plans of destruction for every non-believer... in OUR neighborhoods!

When will our (and your) government come to the realization that this is not a religion of peace, but one of death and destruction?

Here are my politically incorrect solutions:

1) Get CIA/FBI/AFT/etc agents to unexpectedly storm highly suspicious mosques (ex. JERSEY CITY, NJ where they celebrated the fall of the towers) and confiscate every piece of paper, floppy, manual, hard drive, book -- EVERYTHING!!!

2) Enter highly-populated muslim areas, round 'em and place them in internment camps, vessels, prisons, whatever to be deported to their birth country.

3) Revoke all student VISAs from the middle east and deport all students immediately.

4) End all aid to Islamic countries immediately.

Theoretically, this is exactly what needs to be done. But, it'll never happen. We have politicians who care about getting re-elected and the bottom line: money.

Imagine if the US did do something like that? We would suffer the wrath of Saudi Arabia (and other more "friendly" muslim allies) and the ACLU.

For now, we must wait to be hit (or for Israel to be hit) before we do ANYTHING. Insanity.

Posted by: thankGod4America at February 7, 2006 12:35 PM

jsla writes:
"As long as the Muslim menace is treated as a legal and political affair, we will not bring sufficient force against our enemy to defeat him... "

I hear you loud and clear.

Posted by: American at February 7, 2006 12:43 PM

JSLA:

You hit he nail on the head:

"As long as the Muslim menace is treated as a legal and political affair, we will not bring sufficient force against our enemy to defeat him.."

We are at war and we have to use the laws of war to deal with this attack. Civil laws and democracy will not hold up under the tsunami of Islamic attacks...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 7, 2006 12:50 PM

UK Actively Ignoring Radical Muslim Threat

The Muslim lobby in the UK is extremely powerful. Remember that Blair made Iqbal Sacranie, an Islamic fundamentalist, a Knight for his work in promoting the interest of Muslims in the UK. For the Labour Party, the Muslim vote bank is all important. The UK usually takes the Muslim side in both national and international disputes. The UK also lets in thousands of fake refugees from countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh and North Africa, despite knowing that they pose a threat to the democracy and economic welfare of the country.

Its all about votes.

Posted by: barry at February 7, 2006 1:17 PM

thankgod4america -> nice idea, but do that, and
your gaz guzzling economy would grind to a halt.

we can do what you propose after america ends its "oil addiction".

sorry, but thats reality.

Posted by: archduke at February 7, 2006 1:17 PM

"Its all about votes."

muslims make up 2.8% of the british population - and they live in areas that are solidly Labour anyway.

so its not.

its just pure 100 per cent "please dont bomb us , bomb somebody else" appeasement.

Posted by: archduke at February 7, 2006 1:20 PM

Its all about votes.

And votes are all about the breed rates.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at February 7, 2006 1:20 PM

From above:

For some heartening news that maybe people are waking up read Wesley Pruden's article in the Washington Times

Sorry, it's not there. Any clues as to where it might be hiding?

Posted by: FallingProphet at February 7, 2006 1:21 PM

"...we can do what you propose after america ends its "oil addiction".

sorry, but thats reality."

Thanks again, archduke, for erroneously conflating the American economy and the American model with the Islamic Jihad...

While it may be true that American dollars in part fuel the Jihad -- Are you aware that of the 20,000,000 barrels a day consumed by America, that only 11,000,000 barrels come from sources abroad? Primarily Canada, Mexico, and South America... -- and that a mere fraction (by some accounts only 5%-7%) of OUR oil is from ME sources...

Compare that to old EUROPE, my friend, which consumes 15,000,000 barrels a day, and 13,000,000 of that is imported mainly from the ME... SO get your facts straight the next time you or any other former or current leftist America bashing poster tries to paint America with the brush of causing the Jihad or funding the Jihad

The Muslims, and only the Muslims are responsible for their actions and their Jihad... To the extent that dollars should stop flowing in their direction -- I say -- HEAR HEAR -- but stop attempting to blame our consumption for their evils...

The tired out European canards which allow Europeans to pretend their solid wastes doesn't stink, or that they have made far more mistakes in dealing with Arabs and Muslims than America has ever made, or ever will make -- these bankrupt canards make my head spin, and fill me with a certain justifiable anger at our cousins who should begin facing the reality of the sh*t hole they've dug themselves into.

Aside from oil -- It is also clear that the fumblings and rapes of the former colonial powers of Europe in the Middle East, North Africa, and East and Southeast Asia have also caused huge damage in the Muslim world... It is also fair to say that contemporary wheedling, flattery, bribery, and corruption involving European regimes and ME regimes has fomented Jihad as much as anything else...

Don't be a hypocrite. Don't be a fool. Wake up and recognize who your enemies are. It ain't American -- it ain't Americans, my "friend".

Posted by: jsla at February 7, 2006 2:17 PM

Abu Hamza was sentenced for 7&half years. To quote presiding Judge Mr Justice Hughes:"I DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE THAT YOU [Abu Hamza] REPRESENT ISLAMIC THINKING GENERALLY." Pardon me Judge-it's you and rest of Britain's elite who are making what could be a fatal mistake-this
REPRESENTS THE MAJORITY OF ISLAMIC THINKING AND IS WRITTEN IN KORAN.
Note that our lovely man will be eligible for parole in 2008-not far away, and his lovely burqa
clad lawyer Mudassar Arani is already challenging the establishment for a retrial...
The Muslim dressed as a suicide bomber turned out to be a convicted Heroin & Cocaine Dealer-out on Parole .He has since been arrested and put in jail more as a sop to public protests than
a crack down on Muslim thugs threatening' Death to Infidels. 'A Saddam tank was withdrawn from a Belgian exhibition 'FOR FEAR THIS MIGHT OFFEND MUSLIMS.'{As we know from experience just about everything offends Holy Warriors].
Am sure there are camps in Britain which
have been there for years in Wales and Lake District where it is possible London Bombers got
their training.

Posted by: Morgane at February 7, 2006 2:28 PM

jsla:

It's a bit of a canard to suggest that the U.S. is somehow better because relatively little of its oil comes from the Middle East. Oil is a perfectly fungible commodity that is traded on world markets and is no different in that regard from copper or zinc. Should the U.S. cut it's oil consumption, don't expect oil prices to fall only in Mexico, Venezuela or Canada. Similarly, increased oil demand will affect the world wide price.

Posted by: johnb at February 7, 2006 2:31 PM

"Compare that to old EUROPE, my friend, which consumes 15,000,000 barrels a day, and 13,000,000 of that is imported mainly from the ME... SO get your facts straight the next time you or any other former or current leftist America bashing poster tries to paint America with the brush of causing the Jihad or funding the Jihad"

read your history.

Posted by: archduke at February 7, 2006 2:42 PM

"Don't be a hypocrite. Don't be a fool. Wake up and recognize who your enemies are. It ain't American -- it ain't Americans, my "friend"."

i was replying to thankgod4america's suggestion that we round up every American muslim - so the topic was to do with America.

all i pointed out is that it aint gonna happen as long as there's a significant percentage of M.E. oil being supplied to the U.S. - once the U.S. has diversified and got rid of that dependency it will be in a far better position to deal with the islam problem.

here's a map showing U.S. oil sources:
http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

and yes - it a damn site better than the European situation.

Europe is just a basket case when it comes to dealing with the islamists.

but i wasnt having a dig at America - just pointing out the reality of the current situation. i rather liked Bush's state of the union - really cheered me up no end.

Posted by: archduke at February 7, 2006 2:47 PM

To be sure, too much money from oil is going into the hands of the enemies of the West... This site is replete with posts where various persons, end especially persons from Europe, consistently try to lay the Jihad at America's feet, or allege that there is a equivalence and parallel between the actions of Western religions in the past and those of the Jihadists today...

It is also a very common thing to see posters here make a direct but false allegation that US oil consumption is the leading cause of the world's woes -- While per capita we do consume an ungodly amount of that commodity, it is not at all fair to lay the blame solely on America for the world's petro-dependency...

I support calls for conservation... I would LOVE to see vast troves of cash going into advanced high tech solutions to the problem... Little could thrill me more than to deflate to number of dollars flowing into the hands of our enemies. The accident of oil in the Muslims world has been a great boon to us, but increasingly it reveals itself literally to be a devil's bargain. Not only is the Jihad financed by petrodollars -- we also see the ominous signs of greenhouse gas overload...

Anyway -- this thread has gone off the rails, like so many others do... This largely happens because persons come here, in part with the intent to read about and post about the Islamic Jihad, but also to interject their various pet political peeves. As long as the ISLAMIC JIHAD is seen throught the lens of a leftist or rightist political lens, the discussion is doomed to be skewed by the distortions such lenses cause.

There has never been a more urgent time for our populations to recognize soberly, and unitedly the enemy before us -- he is legion -- he is coming for us -- he is already here -- and we sometimes remain stuck in our old pre-9/11 modalities of partisanship and rancour when we should be united against this mortal DEADLY foe!

Posted by: jsla at February 7, 2006 4:06 PM

Falling Prophet,

'Sorry about that. Go to www.drudgereport.com and click on Washington Times and it will be on the righthand side, under Pruden on Politics.

I hate when that happens.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 7, 2006 5:31 PM

"Training camp" conjures images of rag-tag paramilitaries with sticks for guns, assault-courses cobbled from old timber and chicken-wire, wannabe jihadis honing their combat prowess by leaping through fiery hoops, wrestling, bayonet charging pillow-case dummies. Studying photos of Western tourist hotspots & old chemistry textbooks.

But Burnley isn't Afghanistan. How many al-Qaeda training camps are really likely to be hidden amongst the allotments of Leicestershire or Nottingham? Did the 7/7 attackers have a network of bunkers dug beneath their Leeds suburb?

Under Sir Ian Blair, the British police have been seen to let opportunity after opportunity slip moronically through their fingers, time after time. The man isn't fit to be a pest-controller, so why's he still running the yard? The terrorists were known to investigaters before the attacks. Days after, he was telling a mosque assembly "we need people from your communities", and blathering about "overwhelming majorities" and "disenfranchised youth". TV exposés of mosques and even scout huts used by recruiters have been beamed into every home in Britain, for years. Daily papers have led with such stories on a regular basis.

In the last seven days terrorists were given police protection to openly threaten genocide on the streets of the West End, and then it emerges that MI5 enjoyed a good, open relationship with Hook Hamza with frequent debreifings at Millbank.

And now his earnest band of Keystone Cops are on the look-out for "terrorist training camps"... right here in the UIK? Shock! horror!

This is an attempt at grabbing attention away from their miserable incompetance at enforcing UK law. Perfectly good existing laws, which make it illegal, for instance, to plot mass-murder. There are no such training camps. There are however legions of Muslims, congregating on a weekly basis in mosts towns and cities up & down the country, working towards their clearly stated goals of subverting our freedoms & liberties to effect a moral and legal climate more befiting a society of 7th century sand pirates.

The bombs that wreacked carnage in London were made from hair-bleach. They were mixed in an enamel bathtub in an upstairs bathroom of an average georgian semidetached house in a run-of-the-mill Midland neighborhood. The terror camps - if one were even needed - were not even in this hemisphere.

There's no need for anyone in the UIK to go checking for "terrorist training camps" hidden amongst the leafy lanes of Surrey. The real threat is the damnable, stubborn ineptitude of the British police force in discharging their responsibilities, to monitor Muslims, collect & collate evidence... and then to act upon it. Until they pass this conceptual hurdle, we may as well consider any of the 3 million Muslim homes in Britain as suspicious as eachother - which is potentially demonising of the "overwhelming peaceful majority" - but then it's the job of the police & security services to make that distinction. It's not the responsibility of the rest of Britain. By refusing - whatever the reason - to face the unavoidable facts, statements like this do more to raise the level of intercommunity tensions than to reassure anyone that the threat is in hand. But if they think it takes the heat off them, they're wrong; it shows instead their total lack of preparedness, intelligence and accountability.

What a bunch of boyscouts.

Posted by: Animus Fox at February 7, 2006 9:21 PM

Supposedly the islamonazis are training in the remote Brecon Beacons, this is where the British Army SAS has their selection course... Perhaps the aspiring SAS candidates ought to be issued live ammunition?

Posted by: Armalite at February 7, 2006 10:17 PM

I'm sure that they'll try to justify this as equipment for normal religious rituals (e.g. decapitations).

Posted by: restitutor orbis at February 8, 2006 9:27 AM

I remember about 4 years ago i was walking on the hills near Edale a couple of Muslims came running down the hill with shorts, t-shirts and running shoes, each has a backpack on. They said a friendly hello as they ran on their way. I thought this odd at the time, I mean, you rarely see Muslims doing any sort of physical exertion usually. I think, then, that I have identified one of the areas...

Posted by: IceDragon at February 8, 2006 7:38 PM