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In "What would Muhammad do?: History suggests the prophet was more pragmatic than followers rioting in his name," in the LA Times (thanks to James), Jamil Momand, a professor of biochemistry at Cal State Los Angeles, says that the cartoon ragers should follow Muhammad's example:
Some Muslims may say that public opinion does not matter when it comes to Islam. Yet if one examines the life of the prophet Muhammad, one would conclude that he carefully considered public opinion. When he negotiated a treaty with Arabs who were at war with him, he did not insist that his title as "prophet" be placed in the document (this act horrified his companions, to the point where they thought it was sacrilege). Instead, he had his name written as simply Muhammad, the son of Abdulla. This placated his enemy and was essential to successfully concluding the treaty, which gave the Muslims an extended period of peace that allowed them to publicize Islam. In fact, the opportunity the treaty created may be responsible for Islam's existence.Yes, the prophet cared deeply about public opinion. Now if only Muslims would follow his lead.
The problem is, the cartoon ragers may believe that they are already following Muhammad's lead.
Momand thus joins Amir Taheri in suggesting that today's violent cartoon ragers would have displeased the founder of Islam himself. Taheri asserted in the Opinion Journal yesterday that "The truth is that Islam has always had a sense of humor and has never called for chopping heads as the answer to satirists. Muhammad himself pardoned a famous Meccan poet who had lampooned him for more than a decade." Both Momand and Taheri are only looking at part of the evidence about Muhammad, and generalizing without warrant.
In fact, the prophet asked his followers to assassinate poets who had insulted him -- Abu 'Afak and 'Asma bint Marwan -- and rejoiced at their deaths. When the killer of 'Asma reported his deed to Muhammad, Muhammad replied: "You have helped Allah and His Apostle, O Umayr!" (The Sira of Ibn Ishaq, 995-996).
What was Abu 'Afak's offense? He composed a poem praising some of Muhammad's opponents, and lamenting their defeat by the Muslims: "A rider who came to them split them in two, saying 'Permitted,' 'Forbidden,' all sorts of things" -- which was a small jab at the legalism of Islam. Muhammad accordingly asked for his death. When 'Asma bint Marwan heard he was dead, she was angry, and her poem calls in turn for the death of Muhammad after Abu 'Afak was murdered: "Is there no man of pride who would attack [Muhammad] by surprise and cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?" But as a woman in 7th century Arabia, she was in little position to make good on this call or influence anyone else to do so. Muhammad had no reason to treat her as a serious threat. Nonetheless he called for -- and received -- her death also.
On another occasion Muhammad was at prayer when his enemies provoked him with a vile deed: “Narrated ‘Abdullah: While the Prophet was in the state of prostration, surrounded by a group of people from [the] Mushrikun [unbelievers] of the Quraish, ‘Uqba bin Abi Mu’ait came and brought the intestines of a camel and threw them on the back of the Prophet.”
The prophet found in this undeniable humiliation no occasion for mercy: “The Prophet did not raise his head from prostration till Fatima (i.e. his daughter) came and removed those intestines from his back, and invoked evil on whoever had done (that evil deed). The Prophet said, ‘O Allah! Destroy the chiefs of Quraish, O Allah! Destroy Abu Jahl bin Hisham, ‘Utba bin Rabi’a, Shaiba bin Rabi’a, ‘Uqba bin Abi Mu’ait, ‘Umaiya bin Khalaf (or Ubai bin Kalaf).’ Later on I saw all of them killed during the battle of Badr and their bodies were thrown into a well except the body of Umaiya or Ubai, because he was a fat man, and when he was pulled, the parts of his body got separated before he was thrown into the well.” (Bukhari, vol. 4, book 58, no. 3185 -- print edition numbering)
In sum, there is ample evidence that this was not a man who thought a soft answer turned away wrath, or who was interested in turning the other cheek and reacting with gentleness when insulted or humiliated. The cartoon ragers may well see in him not only one whose honor they must avenge, but whose example in the face of insults they must follow.
Posted by Robert at February 9, 2006 4:01 PM
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mohammed executed poets.
Posted by: Founding Forefather![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 9, 2006 4:41 PM
No duplication, character or otherwise. No replication in ANY FORM.
How many people to you know with the name Muhammad? This is sacrilidge.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 9, 2006 4:42 PM
This sounds like a university course that would get many applications.
Posted by: moz_art at February 9, 2006 4:45 PM
Most likely he would do exactly what he had been doing all along throughout his sorry adult life as a career criminal and mass murderer: he would tell the uneducated Arab masses the Jews were to blame and then use these enflamed minions to attack masses of Jews with the intent to kill thousands of them (and at least partly succeed).
Posted by: pythagoras at February 9, 2006 4:46 PM
It's strategic necessity that made him "non-violent" when he was weak. The same cunning a criminal uses to get a lighter sentence, while buying him time to start plotting payback.
Once the power shifted in Mohammad's favor, the sword came down.
Islam feels that the power has shifted in their favor.
So the mask can come off.
The p.c. somnambulists in the West are surprised at this apparent change.
Had they read the Koran (and Hadiths) they could have simply said, with Claude Rains in "Casablanca": (when being told by a Nazi that "there is gambling going on in this place"... [as he collects his winnings from the night before]) "I'm shocked, shocked!".
With a wry smile.
However, I am against journalists giving tactical advice to our enemies.
I want more cartoon riots. More threats. More irrationality. More mayhem. More embassy burnings.
Otherwise the West may doze back off into the Religion of Peace delusion.
Let the pax mask STAY OFF.
Keep the heat on Islam.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 9, 2006 4:51 PM
The idea that islam is basically the same as christianity or judaism is nothing short of an insult to the intelligence of anybody who does even a cursory bit of research. Christ preached peace -- Mohammed preached jihad. There ain't no turn the other cheek in islam.
islam sucks.
fight it.
at February 9, 2006 4:51 PM
I have nothing good to say about Muhammad, so I'll just not say a damn thing.
at February 9, 2006 4:54 PM
Most people know know about his sex with a 9 year old girl. But how many know about his cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of men and boys after the siege of Medina? He watched throughout the day as small groups of men and boys were led to a newly dug trench, hands tied, and then beheaded.
Let's get that little fact out about him.
Murder and paedophilia. What a wonderful combination.
Posted by: Celsius at February 9, 2006 5:01 PM
What would mo do?
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 9, 2006 5:02 PM
What would Mohammed do? Well, "not necessarily" Mohammed reporting live in Toon Trouble courtesy of satirist Mark Fiore in the San Francisco Chronicle. (Shockwave Flash plugin required to view.)
Posted by: Lisa at February 9, 2006 5:20 PM
What would Mohammed do? Depending on the situation, he would do whatever would best suit his the moment to press his advantage. He wouldn't hesitate to call for a truce in order to gain strength in order to rage at a later date. Thus, today's Muslims, whether peaceful or ragers, are two sides of the same coin...
Posted by: epg at February 9, 2006 5:23 PM
Virgins???
Where are all the young virgins????
at February 9, 2006 6:16 PM
If you want an idea of what Mohammed would do, we can look at the long-term history, starting with his life. The history of Islam from it's first breaths is incredibly violent.
As a professor of Western Civilization, I have no doubts about Islam's global intentions.
They were only stopped in the 17th century because of the economic take-off of Europe which left most of the Islamic world as a stagnant backwater. We agree with Hillaire Belloc, the Moslems have not attacked the West lately only because they could not, out of political, economic, and cultural impotence.
Now oil has change all of that.
Glance at the slimmed-down chronology over at The Dumb Ox
or the direct link,
http://thomistic.blogspot.com/2006/02/religion-of-peace.html
All the best,
D. Ox
at February 9, 2006 7:07 PM
Reading that stuff gives me a vision of some bizarre synthesis of the "Flintstones" and "Klingons".
'Cept the Klingons were cool.
Virtual-reality- bah...
Posted by: kentim at February 9, 2006 7:25 PM
Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR, posted a "What would Muhammed do" on their web site. He isn't exactly honest about what Muhammed did do. The woman who harassed him was his uncle's wife. Both he (Lahab) and his wife are the subject of Sura CXI. The last verse says that she will have a twisted rope of palm-leaf fiber put around her neck. He says nothing about the poetess, Asma bint Marwan who was killed in her bed while she was nursing her baby, and of course there is no mention of one of his scribes who quit after he was permitted to change the wording of a revelation that Muhammed had recited to him. He fled to Mecca and his life was spared only at the intervention of Uthman.So perhaps the violent protestor aren't as out of line as the more moderates would have you believe.
woodrock
Posted by: woodrock at February 9, 2006 7:35 PM
Lowell Ponte on FrontPage mag also has a
similarly ignorant WWMD article. I guess
anyone with a soapbox is a !@#$ing expert, and can
prat on and on about topics they know nothing about.
at February 9, 2006 7:49 PM
Amir Taheri, mentioned above, is another representative not only of the moderate Muslim, but of one who is practically a "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim. A gentleman of the old Iranian school, where classmates have such last names as Hoveyda and Tabatabai, and everyone names his children Cyrus and Darius, or possibly Kaveh, but never Mohammed, Taheri gets many things right. He is a truth-teller, up to a point, of the kind we are all so familiar with -- Fouad Ajami and Kanan Makiya come to mind. They despise Edward Said, despise the vulgarity of Arab political life and its despots. But they just can't bring themselves to the point of adequately describing, truthfully describing, Islam. They have their own "dream palace" which is of a benign Islam, compounded of those memories of elderly pious relatives (a grandmother will do), and the smells of the Iftar dinner, and the quiet piety of Muslims they had known growing up, and of course, of collective memories of some fabulously wonderful, the stuff of coffee-table books, a hodgepodge of mostly Ottoman visual memories, Sinanesque mosques, and Iznik tiles, and turbans on wise old scholars at the House of Philosophers (one Muslim, one Christian, one Jew), and they are not about to let little things like the real history of the treatment of non-Muslims under Muslim rule, that led to many Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists to convert, not through the immediate forcible converstion, but through the slow stillicide of the many legal, financial, political, and social disabilities, whose sum was that state of humiliation, degradation, and permanent physical insecurity (for failure to pay the Jizyah or to obey all the rules laid down could cause an entire community of non-Muslims to suffer) that was their lot as dhimmis under Muslim rule.
Taheri's version of Muhammad simply does not accord with that of Tor Andrae, of Maxine Rodinson, of Sir William Muir, of Arthur Jeffery. They, of course, are all non-Muslims. But his version does not accord, either, with the most authoritative Muslim versions of the Sira, either. What leads him to write, in the pages of the Wall Street Journal, that Muhammad took criticism gracefully, and had a good sense of humor about it all, when his attitude was mmuch more akin to that of Stalin, in those late night sessions in the Kremlin with his terrified cronies, ordering the assassination of this or that enemy of the state, and of Stalin.
Taheri writes most often for My Weekly Standard. He is not quite the worshipper of Islam that the sufferer from Weiss-Schwartz Syndrome is, nor is he quite so enamored of al-Sistani and the wonderful Shi'a as Reuel Gerecht has, waveringly, been. But he's a Good Iranian, a worldly, Iranian-in-Paris kind of testifier to Islam, and so it is even more deceptive when he writes the kind of thing that is delicately disassembled above.
What makes Taheri do it? He knows perfectly well what Muhammad is like. Can't stand to tell others? Afraid to tell others? Just can't bring himself to face up to it?
What is it?
We all want to know.
Posted by: Hugh at February 9, 2006 7:52 PM
What I wonder is why the old (2002) Doug Marlette editorial cartoon (just remembered it, thinking of this article's headline) 'WHAT WOULD MOHAMMED DRIVE?" never got the reaction that the 12 Danish cartoons did?
Mo is tooling along in a Ryder van with a nuke in the back. Far more 'inflammatory' than ANYTHING the Danes dared do. A nuclear terrorist! Mohammad! How dare that infidel dog show such a defamatory image of the pedophile "prophet"!!
Were the Muslims less willing to piss people off so soon after 9/11? And were just biding their time till the dhimmis got lazier and weaker?
Still visible here:
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 9, 2006 8:15 PM
Epg: “What would Mohammed do? Depending on the situation, he would do whatever would best suit his the moment to press his advantage. He wouldn't hesitate to call for a truce in order to gain strength in order to rage at a later date. Thus, today's Muslims, whether peaceful or ragers, are two sides of the same coin...”
Notice that's exactly what this writer does. He says, "Yet if one examines the life of the prophet Muhammad, one would conclude that he carefully considered public opinion…..
This placated his enemy and was essential to successfully concluding the treaty, which gave the Muslims an extended period of peace that allowed them to publicize Islam."
So Muhammad was a taqiyyah master. As is this writer, whether he consciously realizes it or not. What he betrays in this piece is his singular focus on spreading Islam. I don't recall either Jesus or the Buddah giving a hoot about something so base as "public opinion". They were too focused on Truth, and trying to rescue human beings from suffering, to give a damn about public opinion.
Something I have noticed about Muslims describing their prophet - they have a great tendency to focus on the superficial externals. How Muhammad walked and how Muhammad carried himself and even how Muhammad smelled. How he could sit so calmly and unperturbably, even while ordering murder. Perhaps Muslims understand very little about the personalities and characters of consummate psychopaths. They seem to have such great admiration for Muhammad's calm, controlled exterior but are completely lacking in any understanding that the most successful malignant narcissists and psychopaths in history HAVE BEEN incredibly controlled and disciplined.
Muslims are utter and complete slaves of the EXTERNAL manifestation of things and utterly mistake external appearances for reality. For example, they mistake external appearances of "piousness" - the very public and external show (almost theater) of prayer and dress and diet - for actual piety and spirituality, when it's obviously anything BUT spirituality.
But who cares how well Hitler carried himself? Who cares that he was disciplined enough to be a vegetarian? Maybe he even smelled good for all I know. Maybe he rose at 5am every single day and did his ritual exercises. Lots of psychopaths are incredibly disciplined.
Muslims - Forget the externals! Forget the cartoons. Forget about what happens to every single Koran - whether it winds up in a gutter or gets accidentally soiled. And forget about Muhammad's impressive external appearance.
It's what's INSIDE that counts. And Muhammad killed and stole and lied. Anything to spread Islam. That's a fact! The whole rest of the world - some 4 billion people (since you're so very fond of citing statistics) GETS THAT. Why don't you?
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 8:22 PM
Anyone who seen or read "the godfather" knows that it's main appeal lies in the revelation of the Cult of HONOR that permeated the early Sicilian mafia and it's American siblings.
And i believe even the word "mafia" derives from the arabic- a left over from Sicily's Islamic past ?
In this cult of honor, respect is of paramount importance. indeed lack of respect (or its perception) represents shaming and its response must be swift and violent. Hence the advent of the vendetta.
interestingly enough i have concluded that this has a deep paralel with islam and coincidentally "Respect" is also the name of Galloway's hideous political party.
So the response of muslims to percived grievances must be based on "Honour" and the teaching of respect to the infidel.
When thousands upon thousands of Muslims rejoice in the tragedy of 911 , it is a mistake to believe that the source of rejoicing is the death of thousands of American innocents, The primary source of enjoyment is actually the RESTORATION OF THE HONOR OF ISLAM caused by the percieved infidels lack of respect.
This cult of Honor within islam is so strong that it negates any feelings of guilt in much of the muslim population. And indeed any traces of such guilt are displaced promptly onto the americans or the Jews and so vanish.
A dilligent Blogger whose site i forget has chronicled over 4000 islamic terror attacks since 911.
Most would agree that few muslims bear any guilt for these outrages.
Why do they feel no guilt. are they not after all human beings like the rest of us?
It is because they see them as avenging the honor of Islam and like the mafiosi of "the godfather" there is no guilt in the avenging of dishohour
Those Arabs at the top of the heap must continually invent new outrages against islam to keep the fire of the cult of honour burning.
And so we have the "cartoon outrages"-deliberate manoevres to keep outrage in the minds of the hordes of "useful islamic idiots ", whose main purpose will be to conquer the west, in the same way the the palestinians have been used for sixty years to eliminate Israel.
So on the one hand we have a cult of honour and on the other we have in the west what i call a cult of Guilt.
The cult of guilt is a relatively new phenomenon which has gained strength since the end of WW2.
it has led to unfettered multiculturism, a state of mind which excuses even the most horrific outrages brought against us and placed the blame squarely on our own shoulders.
For years so many of us have been taught to be ashamed of our culture of imperialism and colonialism and to look to other cultures for "enlightenment". Those chickens are now roosting.
Fortunately this cult is limited to the educationalists,the media, and certain political party activists. It is precisely the reason why Islam has managed to gain such huge victories within our midst.
we need to replace our culture of guilt not by a culture of honor but by a culture of self belief of love and real understnding for our democratic achievements. We need to accept understand and forgive the excesses of our own governments and realise the millions have died before us, to enable us to enjoy the freedoms we have today.
at February 9, 2006 9:06 PM
I don't recall either Jesus or the Buddah giving a hoot about something so base as "public opinion" ... Something I have noticed about Muslims describing their prophet - they have a great tendency to focus on the superficial externals - posted by Caroline
Fantastic post.
And yet, like so many other religious movements that cropped up after Christianity came on the scene, Islam still tries to appropriate Jesus to shore up its "legitimacy" (like holding an old Chevette together with duct tape) and siphon off followers.
Islam wins where Christians are weak in their faith, either personally, or through institutionalized spinelessness in their churches.
Then, "oh, we revere Jesus, too" is enough to divert followers into Mohammed's trap. But unlike the Old/New Testaments in the Bible, Muslims don't get to read what came before their Koran to see how thoroughly incompatible the teachings of Jesus are with those of Muhammad.
Christian religious education need to follow the lead of other faiths in the area of doing a better job of arming its students against those who would try to proselytize them, as politically incorrect as it may be.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 9:10 PM
Now, then... when will the WWMD ("What Would Mohammed Do?" bracelets hit the scene?
Hehheh. WMD. But they could get around that with W.W.M.P.B.U.H.D.?
Catchy!
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 9:14 PM
it is quiet clear that most of you just have new idea whats so ever about the last messanger from god muhummed , most of what u guys say bad about prophet muhummed peace on him is repeated by those who has a n agenda against islam with out knowledge of what his message is , he came with the same message that prophets befor him came with to belive and worship one almighty god ... moses in the bible ( detueronmy 6.4 ) says o .isreal THE LORD OUR LORD IS ONE LORD ..and jesus peace on him sais the first of all commandement is HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD ..MARK 12.29 and then muhummed peace on him came with the same message after 600 years after jesus peace on him .the message of prophet muhummed is AND YOUR GOD IS ONE GOD,THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE ..QURAN 2.163 . he and his followers went through hardshiphis, his campanions were slaughtred , his relatives boycotted him , his followers traveled to africa to escape from the killing in mecca because of their only beleive in one almighty god , no one equals to him ,and he does not begot and he is not begoten , his wealthy famaily that worship idols offered to him all the money and to be the king of mecca and he refused ,and he told them that if u put the moon in my right hand and the sun in my left to leave preaching for one almighty god ,i will not .. he was boycotted and his campanions for three years ,the ate the leaves of the trees from hunger and they stood up to their belife ,he had to migrate with the belivers from his town for his belife .. then when he got stronger he came back to mecca peacfully , no sigle blood been shattered , he forgave all those who were against him ,... he came as a messanger from god , a mercy from god to warn all humanity that there is only one god to worship since adam time ,and there is a life after and there will be a day of judgement for every thing u did in this life , so a man like him after all he did for us ,u want us to sit and watch ,, no way we will ... but all the violence we are against
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 9:19 PM
chevalier de st george - Absolutely. There can be no doubt about what you are describing. Islam basically amounts to a "protection racket". The intimidation we're seeing with the cartoons - you do what we say and we won't kill you - appears to be part of the same phenomenon. Doesn't the Islamic jizya strike one as the very model of the mafiosa? You get to live as long as you pay us off?
"And i believe even the word "mafia" derives from the arabic- a left over from Sicily's Islamic past ?"
Excellent question/issue to raise. Historians out there - can you answer that question? What is the historical connection of the mafia to islam? Inquiring minds want to know.
at February 9, 2006 9:37 PM
I am new to commenting, but I have read this and the Dhimmiwatch site for some time.
There is no other major world religion whose faithful will riot violently in the streets all over the world at the publication of cartoons, books or films which defame their religion. Remember the Dutch filmmaker Van Gogh, who was murdered last year, because he shot a film showing the violence against women in the Muslim world? (Even though women, ARE, in fact, treated like crap throughout most of the Muslim world)
Of the major armed conflicts in the world, nearly every one one of them invlove a Muslim power on one side.
I am not anti-Muslim. I am anti-fundamentalism.
I am just as opposed to Christian, Sikh, Jewish, etc. extremists performing acts of violence in the name of their God or Gods. It is simply that right now, Muslims are paracticing this violence in the largest numbers, and on a worldwide scale. No good can come of the arrogance of religious fervor.
Religious fundamentalism is the enemy of everything that makes it so wonderful to be a human being, and blocks progress, intellectual curiousity, and original thought.
at February 9, 2006 9:38 PM
musa,
It is clear that you are either a liar, or
you know nothing at all about the life of the
pedophile prophet you worship, as described in
your own canonical texts. Why don't you learn
just who it is we mean when we say Abu Afak,
or Asma bint Marwan? As it is, you have nothing
to contribute but bland statements about how
your death cult is a religion of peace.
Now, who should I believe, you, or my
lying eyes?
at February 9, 2006 10:02 PM
Shinoliite: "Islam still tries to appropriate Jesus to shore up its "legitimacy""
Look at an example from this very article of what you're describing:
“I know the intellectual, religious and legal arguments used to defend the position that such cartoons should never be published: Muslims respect the figures from the Abrahamic faiths, including Moses, Jesus and Mary. Why can't others reciprocate?”
Muslims respect the figures of Moses , Jesus and Mary? Who the hell is this guy kidding? No they don't. Maybe Muslims refrain from DEPICTING them graphically but what the hell does THAT have to do with respect? Muslims DESPISE Jews and Christians. Do they seriously think that refraining from something as superficial and external and silly as DRAWING the sacred figures of other religions, while at the same time assuming the god-given right to KILL the followers of said prophets somehow equates to RESPECT?
Muslims are downright stupid or they are liars - one.
Posted by: Caroline
at February 9, 2006 10:17 PM
this is the truth to the whole world that prophet muhummed peace on him came with the same message as all prophets from god since adam time preached for to believe in the only one almighty god that nothing equals to him and he does not begot and he is not begotten ... i showed u evidenes , i stand firmly by what i write
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 10:18 PM
Musa,
Muhammad did in fact call people to worship this one God (who threatens everyone with hell who does not obey, with the slightest doubt, "the messenger" and all his decrees) but that does not mean what is written in the Quran is not in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said love your enemies and bless those who curse you. Jesus revoked the laws later picked up by Islam such as stoning adulterers and eye for an eye. He gave the example of the Good Samaritan who helped a complete stranger. He told of people who are blessed, not those who are cursed.
It is well-documented that the prophet of Islam murdered his enemies,prayed to God to curse them, stoned adulterers, and had nine wives.
Most of the sickening barbarity of the Old Testament was a thing of the past until Islam decided it was to be implemented once more.
There is value in the teachings of Jesus, but I fail to see what is so noble about the mission of calling to "the one true God." Especially that cruel and inhumane God portrayed in the Old Testament and the Quran.
And when people ask "What Would Jesus Do?" they are often looking for the most original and correct way of reacting to a given situation. A perfect example is when Jesus is asked by priests whether the stoning of the adulterer is permitted. Jesus reacted in an original and correct way by sparing the "sinner" and confounding those who were scrutinizing him.
The same cannot be asked or said of Muhhammad
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 9, 2006 10:30 PM
I am glad that blind poetess Asma Bint Marwan
is being remembered. There needs to be a memorial
for the blind poetess who had extra ordinary courage to stand up for truth. She
was a true hero. People need to know.
at February 9, 2006 10:33 PM
The real story of the Poets
The Makkans were preparing themselves against the Muslims for a greater battle. The adversaries of Islam in Madinah set out to malign the Muslims at the same time through satire carried out by poets. The Arabs satiric poetry was worse to bear than a sword cut or spear wound. One such Medinite poet was Ka’b bin Al Ashraf, who went to Makkah, stayed there four months and after instigating the Makkans against the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) returned to Madinah. On his return he used to recite his venomous poetry at public places of Madinah. He also incited other people to recite aloud his verses after him.
A woman Asma Bint Marwan was also among such poets. Her satiric verses were against the Muslims, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), the Holy Qur’an, Jibril and Allah. Those verses greatly irritated Muslims. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was also quite discomforted by her poetry. He was an extremely tolerant and a patient person, therefore he did not take action against her. In Surah Al-Asr is mentioned:
1.
By (the Token of)
Time (through the Ages),
2.
Verily Man, Is in loss,
3.
Except such as have Faith,
And do righteous deeds,
And (join together)
In the mutual teaching
Of Truth, and of
Patience and Constancy.
(Surah Al’Asr)
In the Holy Qur’an, patience and fortitude have been mentioned several times and each time Allah has instructed people not to let fortitude and patience be lost. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) himself was a glorious example of patience. However, the ordinary Muslims could not hear such poetry directed against their Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and their religion. They were greatly hurt since they were witnessing these poets openly blaspheming and airing lampoonery against their Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and Allah. The Muslims could have tolerated such attacks against themselves but it was too trying to bear such insulting remarks against the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and Allah. One day, a blind Muslim (Umain bin Awf) entered the house of Asma Bint Marwan and stabbed her to death.
The next day the people were greatly surprised to know that she has been stabbed by Umair bin Awf as the task appeared impossible for a blind man. He was among her near relations and had lived there for years. He was well familiar with every nook and corner of her house, her habits and the place where she slept.
The news quickly spread in Madinah. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) heard the news in the Mosque. When that blind man came to the Mosque, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) inquired, "Is it you who has killed her?"
He replied, "Yes! O Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) of Allah! I have killed her last night and I am not least ashamed of it".
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was saddened as he hated bloodshed. He was also pained to know that anti-Islamic elements were taking undue advantage of the patience of the Muslims. They were instigating them to take measures against their will. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was helpless to interfere in matters regarding Asma’s murder: as according to the pact of Madinah, each tribe was autonomous in its internal affairs. When the murderer and the murdered belonged to the same tribe, intrusion by another person was undesirable. The punishment could only be imposed by their tribe.
Ka’b bin Ashraf was killed by a Muslim named Abu Naila and again the murdered and the murderer belonged to the same tribe. Another such poet Abu A’fk was also killed by a Muslim (Salim bin Umair) of his tribe.
In some historic books, these men have been mentioned as: Umair bin Au’f who killed Asma Bint Marwan, Sa’lim bin Umair, who killed Abu A’fk and Abu Naila, who killed Ka’b bin Ashraf.
In spite of these killings, satiric poetry continued. However, this time, the Jews also joined hands with these poets.
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) advised the Jews to abstain from vexation and reminded them of their bondage by Madinah pact, which required them not to ally with the enemies of the Muslims. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) held a meeting with the chieftain of "Zargar" tribe to improve the ties between the Muslims and the Jews.
The Jews were separated by three occupations. One took to agriculture, the other to goldsmithry and the third lived by tanning of hides.
In Islamic history, they have also been named as: Banu Qareedah, Banu Nazir and Banu Qaneqah. Banu Qareedah was the most powerful and the richest. Most of its people earned through goldsmithry. It was in the knowledge of the chieftain of Jews that an army of many thousand was going to ravage the Muslims. He met the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) with indifference. He was among those who had contrived against the Muslims in case of their invasion by the Makkans. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) reminded him about the pact and said that observance of law was the same for everyone. He also pointed out that the Muslims had not violated the pact, yet the Jews had been very active against them through their sarcastic poetry. The Muslim tolerance was being taken for cowardice; although that was not the case. The Muslims had proved in the battle of Badr that they were not afraid of anyone. They did not want to strain the relations between the Muslims and the Jews by any vengeful measures. It was desirable that the Jews stopped teasing the Muslims and abide by the terms of "Methaq-e-Madinah".
The chieftain rudely replied, "O Abul Qasim! Battle of Badr had made you and your people arrogant and they have started believing you will be victorious in every battle! You are unaware that you fought with your kind and have not fought with the Jews. You do not know how valiant the Jews are".
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) replied with great forbearance, "We do not want to fight with you, rather we want to maintain good ties with you. I know about the approaching army, therefore you do not want to side with us but the least you can do is to stay neutral". The Jews had so many expectations from the Kufar of Makkah that their chieftain did not even promise to stay neutral. He said that it depended upon the conduct of the Muslims. If their attitude was satisfactory, they would remain neutral.
While the Muslims were observing an amiable and tolerant attitude, an ugly incident occurred. One day when a Muslim girl was passing through the market of goldsmiths, some Jewish boys encircled and started to tease her. They later tried to dis-honour her. A Jew stepped out of a nearby shop and tied the edge of her dress to a post. When she tried to run away, the edge of her dress was torn and some part of her body became exposed.
A Muslim was passing by. He saw this happening. He was quite infuriated by this insult. He hit the Jew on the head. The other Jews pounced upon him and killed him. The Muslims demanded blood-money from the Qaneqah tribe, but they refused. Such refusal meant declaration of battle. All the Jewish tribesmen including seven hundred warriors entrenched themselves in their fortress like houses. They were not afraid of the Muslims as they were comforted by the approaching army led by Abu Sufyan.
The Muslims surrounded the colony of the goldsmiths for two weeks. Meanwhile no-one from the Muslims or the Jews was injured. After two weeks, the Jews received the news that the Makkan army had not even moved out of Makkah, let alone reach Madinah. Hence they had to surrender. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) always showed clemency towards the subdued, therefore he took nothing except weapons from them and left it to their will either to come into Faith or to leave Madinah forever.
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) also allowed them to take with them whatever they liked. The Jews took everything with them, sparing not even doors and windows of their houses. On leaving Madinah, they were divided in two groups. One left southwards to join the army of the Kufar to annihilate the Muslims. The other group set off towards one of the Jewish cities of Arabia.
Although the expulsion of Jews from Madinah had lessened the number of anti-Islamic elements still the remaining number of the Jews was quite great. The Quraysh of Makkah also suffered loss by this Jewish exile, as they were deprived of those seven hundred Jewish warriors who could have joined them for the attack on Madinah.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 10:37 PM
The religion of anarchy.
Mo's followers do this:
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
Posted by: Borg at February 9, 2006 10:38 PM
u are not implemeting the teaching of jesus peace on him where he says the first of all commanemet . MARK 12.29 hear o isreal the lord our god is one lord ..where do u stand from that ... on 325 the dotrine of trinity was created ,it was never preached by any single prophet since adam time including jeasus peace on him ... trinity was man made ..300 bishops got together and issued this doctrine ... so god sent muhummed as the last messanger from god as a mercy to all humanity to correct this man made doctrine and others who worship idols ,and to preach as all prophets preached for including moses and jesus peace on all of them to belive in one only almnighty god that no one equals to him and god is not begottn and does not begot
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 10:47 PM
Peace to everyone,
My name is Malik and this is my first time on this blog. I posted the complete story about the poets, Ka’b bin Al Ashraf and Asma Bint Marwan.
If you read the story then I'm sure you have noticed the irony that parallels what's happening today.
The artist and newspaper were well aware that making such a drawing would cause an uproar in the Islamic community. Unfortunately, some muslims have choosen to over-react. In my opinion they are not completely to blame.
Iran has choosen to print hurtful cartoons about the jewish holocust and that is sure to stir up pain in the jewish community. I don't agree with this strategy, however, I understand the reasoning behind it.
Its very simple... if each of us respects the beliefs of the other than we would find more commonality and less irrationality.
I don't post this as an apology nor as a justification it is merely my own personal observation.
-Malik
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 10:55 PM
Musa and Malik - Oh for Pete's sake. Grow the hell up. Why don't you give yourselves a break and stop trying to do the impossible bending your heads around the obvious fact that your prophet was a mass murderer? And even if you could seriously manage explaining that away - you'd still need to bend yourselves into pretzels trying to come up with some good explanation of why your prophet robbed folks, lied, took slaves, married a 6 year old girl etc etc. Give it up guys. Seriously. The rest of the human race is quite willing to welcome you with open arms once you get past your primitive and barbaric "Us" vs "Them" stupidity.
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 10:56 PM
Caroline~ some Must try. Please give them a chance.
Posted by: Gary at February 9, 2006 10:59 PM
Caroline,
Can you please give me an example of the Prophet commiting "Mass Murder". If you are correct I will acknowledge it.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:06 PM
uh oh folks, looks like I did it again....
Mr. Parvez Ahmad,
In reading your Op-Ed titled: Respect, Restraint answer to cartoon flap, I have a few questions.
You wrote: "At the core of the reactions in the Muslim world are fears about Western motives, bolstered by lack of redress of ongoing grievances."
1. What "fear about Western motives" are you talking about? Specifically?
2. What "lack of redress of ongoing grievances" are you referring to, specifically?
I have a guess for the answer to question #2. It is because of the Israelis isn't it. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the source of all Islamic discord.
I have an ongoing grievance that hasn't been address properly either. I believe the Jewish people have a right to the entire 2nd temple grounds and if they so choose, could either rebuild the temple again or make a museum of it. The Dome of the Rock was built in a direct, shameless provocation of Jewish people and Jewish faith. That is a specific and direct grievance that has never been redressed. That "mosque" was built by Caliph 'Umar 6 years after the death of Muhammad.
The Dome of the Rock should either be dismantled or moved off of the Temple grounds.
at February 9, 2006 11:06 PM
Malik - you tell me first - how many people in YOUR mind, would Muhammad have to kill or order killed, in order to for you to have some doubt about his character and thus whether he was who he claimed to be? One? Two? Three? 10? 50? How many people would someone have to kill by your definition to qualify as as a "mass murderer"? I'm curious.
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 11:15 PM
Caroline
Muslims are utter and complete slaves of Islam true. Like ants that have reached an evolutionary impasse they willingly forfiet their free will for enslavement that controls almost every aspect of their day.
This leads to belief that there is no absolute truth only the truthes dicated by their religion.
Thus they are ready to accept willy nilly all the absurdities preached to them by their Mullahs.
But even the dhimmies and slaves that lived within dar al islam were afflicted by this contagiousness.
Most willingly accepted their status of Half humans and some believed that resistance was futile since it would be met by unspeakable barbarity. Others perhaps taking the view that it is better to remain alive with a degree of protection through one's superior "protectors" status than suffer the anxiety of not knowing from one day or the other if one would be beaten or killed.
And again here we should note the relatinship between what i call the culture of honour and slavery.
The culture of Honour of the Mafiosi of Sicily demanded the enslavement of the local peasants who had to pay money and respect to the Local DON to receive eg, supplies of precious water.
Others received the Protection of the Mafia in return for the jizya and the expected respectfl adulations.
This in effect meant that a significant proportion of the population were in fact "dhimmies" to the Mafia who would regard them as "protected individuals" within their jurisdiction.
The parallels with Arabic islamic rule are very interesting i think.
at February 9, 2006 11:16 PM
Caroline,
You are the accuser and the burdon of proof resides with you. I don't believe the Holy Prophet was a mass murderer and you do. I'm asking you for your evidence of this so that I can be better informed.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:20 PM
chevalier de st george,
I'm sure you are quite proud of your post and are probably sitting there waiting for accolades. No doubt that somewhere in the vast cloud of the internet there is a resident in the back hills of Kentucky who found your post quite intelligent.
I'm convinced you enjoy hearing yourself speak.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:26 PM
Malik - for starters, did you bother to read Spencer's post at the start of this thread? Besides individual assassinations, I would call beheading 700 or so Jews, "mass murder". But, as you're a Muslim, maybe you don't consider killing Jews murder?
Have you ever personally ordered someone killed? Even one human being? Or watched literally hundreds of people have their heads cut off on your personal orders? No, I doubt it.
Have YOUR friends ever come back and told you how they murdered someone you didn't like and you said - hey. terrific. so be it. he deserved it? I doubt it. Which makes you a better human being than your own prophet.
Or are you suffering from a complete lack of imagination, not to mention basic human empathy, let alone the capacity for deductive logic?
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 11:43 PM
Salam Malik
Listen brother, dont bother with these people. Most of them are beyond help. They cant help but see the world through the ugly lenses of their stained stereotype glasses. Attacking and ridiculing Islam, that is rooting for a war that will never come, gives them a purpose and a indetity, however misguided.For the first time they feel themselves part of something, by definiton that is nowadays being western. How else to become something then by defining your enemies? Why should we talk to people, the so called westerners on this site, who consider our lives worthless, talking to us like monekys? It is not worth our times and our effort and it is ceartainly not worth getting our Prophet and religion insulted by half-literates. May God bless you anway for your efforts. Take care.
p.s
that jerk Robert Spencer canceled my first indentity, talk about freedom of speech. What a
hypocrite
at February 9, 2006 11:45 PM
Caroline,
Sure I read Spencer's post... and I have also read books from historians and scholars regarding Islam and the Holy Prophet. Spencer's post regarding the poets was incomplete and if you read my post you would have found the gaps closed. The Prophet did not order the death of those poets.
Can you please give me a reference to the 700 jews whose heads were cut off by the prophet?
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:50 PM
Wa Alaykum As-Salam Musa,
I appreciate your warning dear brother. I don't believe these people are unintelligent. I believe they are deeply passionate about their beliefs. We all are. Alhamdulillah. I also believe that many of them have not had the opportunity to speak rationally with a muslim but rather derive their knowledge of Islam from the nightly news or Spencer's post.
I hope that I can balance the information so that its not so one sided. I also hope that Spencer will not find my presence as threatening and cancel my privileges.
Jazakallah kul khairun akhi...
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:56 PM
Malik,
When you are thinking of "Mass Murdering" you are most likely thinking on the grand scale of modern times. Maybe you would better understand this statement if you understood "in cold blood" and "without conscience"
The mass murdering and brutality is not only practiced and mentioned in your own holy sources, but still continues to this day, and mass murderers (the nearly 4,000 in the WTC were a mass were they not?) are inspired by the the teachings of this so-often called holy-man. Confucius, the Buddha, Lord Krishna, and Jesus (whom you call your own) cast a HUGE shadow over your prophet in words and deed.
I'm convinced you think you are scoring points in heaven in your own miniature form of Jihad...the second holiest Muslim cause. The fact you are asking for evidence only betrays the fact you are ignorant of your religion's texts, and thus easily manipulated.
And the back-hills of Kentucky are a million times better then the deserts of Saudi Arabia...home of the true lovers of the prophet.
at February 10, 2006 12:03 AM
Malik
your ad hominem attacks are indeed an indication of your intelligence.
perhaps on the subject of acceptance of GUILT you would be willing to divulge whether you feel any sense of guilt at the 4000+ islamic terrorism attacks throughout the world since 911.
or are you entrenched in your culture of Honor so deeply that you reject any accusations of terrorism by those of your religious beliefs?
at February 10, 2006 12:04 AM
Well, brother if I see it from that point of view it is ceartainly an honor that he canceled my identity. I believe there is a difference between passion and hate. Passion arises out of love, hate out of fear. If tomorrow a law in the senate was passed permitting average citizens to personally harm any Muslim or Arab they encounter then I would urge you to go into hiding.These dogs here dont just bark. They have got their knives sharpened. Most of them are ceartainly not from the good Christians described in the Koran, more from the vile bunch. As much as I deplore Muslim idioacrcy, like foolishly burning Embassies, I have never ecountered such hate. It has come to a point
where I believe only the law hold them back.
Salam
p.s
I am not Musa,
I am Karim
at February 10, 2006 12:09 AM
I swear, 99% of the postings by Muslims I read on this site give me the creeps. Something in their impenetrable, mindless, earnest, tortured prose just creeps me out. They're droids, pod people, satan's puppets -- some evil djinni has stolen their souls, and now they haunt the world like vampires, their dead eyes looking to drink the blood of the living. Yechh.
it is quiet clear that most of you just have new idea whats so ever about the last messanger from god muhummed , most of what u guys say bad about prophet muhummed peace on him is repeated by those who has a n agenda against islam with out knowledge of what his message is , he came with the same message that prophets befor him came with to belive and worship one almighty god ... moses in the bible ( detueronmy 6.4 ) says o .isreal THE LORD OUR LORD IS ONE LORD ..and jesus peace on him sais the first of all commandement is HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD ..MARK 12.29 and then muhummed peace on him came with the same message after 600 years after jesus peace on him .the message of prophet muhummed is AND YOUR GOD IS ONE GOD,THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE ..QURAN 2.163 . he and his followers went through hardshiphis, his campanions were slaughtred , his relatives boycotted him , his followers traveled to africa to escape from the killing in mecca because of their only beleive in one almighty god , no one equals to him ,and he does not begot and he is not begoten , his wealthy famaily that worship idols offered to him all the money and to be the king of mecca and he refused ,and he told them that if u put the moon in my right hand and the sun in my left to leave preaching for one almighty god ,i will not .. he was boycotted and his campanions for three years ,the ate the leaves of the trees from hunger and they stood up to their belife ,he had to migrate with the belivers from his town for his belife .. then when he got stronger he came back to mecca peacfully , no sigle blood been shattered , he forgave all those who were against him ,... he came as a messanger from god , a mercy from god to warn all humanity that there is only one god to worship since adam time ,and there is a life after and there will be a day of judgement for every thing u did in this life , so a man like him after all he did for us ,u want us to sit and watch ,, no way we will ... but all the violence we are againstPosted by: Zeno
at February 10, 2006 12:13 AM
ChinCheck,
I understand fully what "mass murder" means. I am asking you to give me one example of a person murdered by the Prophet.
Here's how I see this. In our great country, the U.S.A. our system of justice demands that the accuser provide evidence when accusing. Remember each is INNOCENT until proven guilty. I am simply following the justice of this great nation and applying our very own standards to ourselves.
That's it. So if you truly believe in the American way... you will supply evidence to support your conclusions, otherwise we are safe to assume your accusations are simply rhetoric. Which in turn deserves the same level of credibility as those who are rioting and reacting irrationally. Yo Comprende?
As for the 9/11 reference. Don't you think that the 2,500 innocent lives (may Allah's Mercy be with them) have been vindicated by the 100,000 plus lives (May Allah's Mercy be with them) lost in the Iraq "Shock & Awe"?
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:13 AM
Malik - you are as capable of googling "Banu Quarayzah" as I am. Why don't you ask me to prove that the Holocaust actually happened while you're at it?
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 12:14 AM
"I have never ecountered such hate. It has come to a point where I believe only the law hold them back".
Then I suggest you fly to Pakistan, Saudi, muslim majority country of your choice, announce you are a Christian, and rip up a copy of the Koran in full public view!
Can't you feel the LOVE already, Karim?????
Come on, I double dog dare ya!
Posted by: treehugger at February 10, 2006 12:18 AM
chevalier de st george,
Please explain to me why I would feel the slightest bit of guilt regarding 9/11? That's like telling every Catholic to feel guilty about Hitler's actions towards Jews.
I am strongly opposed to any violent action that causes the death of innocent people.
I don't bare the burdon of anyone's crimes.
Do you carry any guilt regarding the innocent lives lost in Afghanistan or Iraq by the "Coalition of the Willing". We are still waiting for those WMD to turn up.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:19 AM
Caroline
Malik proves my point.
his honor for Islam will disable him for feeling any shame for the endless lists of murders of his co religionists.
he will use every islamic ploy to deflect facts or truthes to maintain his stance that Islam cannot be faulted, especially by an infidel.
And were he facing a flock of guilt ridden infidels they would cede and admit that in fact it is all the fault of the west and its corrupt way of life.
The flushing down of Korans is to the westerners far more shameful to us than the beheading of a hundred christian schoolgirls by mahdi warriors surely is to him.
at February 10, 2006 12:19 AM
Zeno,
That's funny because I was thinking the exact same thing about you.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:20 AM
Caroline,
Please share with me what you know about Banu Quarayzah.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:22 AM
What's the point in dialogue anyway?
We have two opposing civilizations, values, customs, beliefs.
Stay separate, stay happy.
at February 10, 2006 12:22 AM
Karim,
Your absurdity knows no bounds. YOU are the one acting a fool. We never called you worthless. We called your religious ideology worthless, which is so intertwined with your identity you do not know the difference.
Nothing will convince you or the people posting here of changing their stance. Concessions, possibly..but still doubtful.
No understanding will take place. You read the Quran and sunnah and found nothing wrong or against your conscience. Its a judgement call...if you find peace, fine. But submission does not blow over well in these parts.
We believe we are endowed with certain rights and so do you. No one is calling or hoping for war, but if a people are under attack, and their values mean anything, they must be defended..
"Give me liberty or give me death" means nothing to you because you are are servile slave who does not know what the Enlightenment brought.
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 10, 2006 12:23 AM
My point is simple,
Many of you claim to be civilized and compassionate, yet you have attacked me without even knowing me. That is hypocritical.
I'm curious how many of you are christians. You know I'm a muslim so don't be afraid to state your religious affiliation.
Especially you chevalier de st george.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:25 AM
Ok, but first I go to Texas or somewhere in the Bible
Belt and I will rip up a copy of the bible infront on
a congregation( probably including you)just ranting about what soulless monkeys Muslism are and to put one on top of it I will scream Allah at the top of my lungs .Would you dare me? I have lived in Saudi Arabia for fifteen years and I have seen those Americans and Europeans complaining about the ever so nice topic of how miserable Islam is,while happily rubbing their swollen satiated belly, fat on Arab and Muslim generosity and comfortable living. Who can compare the salary of a Muslim National with that of an American in Saudi Arabia? On another note, what kind of sick Fantasies do you have, wanting to go to Pakistan and rip up a Koran?
at February 10, 2006 12:28 AM
No Caroline, you have never called me worthless. I have only been called a pig, subhuman, infidel, soulless, trash, borg, feces and Mohammedan scum. That is all. And from all the Christian posters not one objected. Not one.
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:32 AM
Malik: "Don't you think that the 2,500 innocent lives (may Allah's Mercy be with them) have been vindicated by the 100,000 plus lives (May Allah's Mercy be with them) lost in the Iraq "Shock & Awe"?"
Malik - What 100,000 plus lives lost in Iraq's "shock and awe"? Don't bother to cite that by now now well debunked Lancet article. Prove that coalition troops have directly caused any more than 5,000 "innocent" Iraqi deaths.
And take careful note of that term "innocent" while you go about it...
at February 10, 2006 12:36 AM
Karim: "No Caroline, you have never called me worthless. I have only been called a pig, subhuman, infidel, soulless, trash, borg, feces and Mohammedan scum. That is all. And from all the Christian posters not one objected. Not one."
Why are you addressing that to me?
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 12:37 AM
These dogs here dont just bark. They have got their knives sharpened. - posted by Karim.
Yer darned right I've got my knife sharpened. It's a cheese knife. And it's about to subject some Arla havarti to the will of Shinoliite.
Insh'inoliite (Shinoliite willing).
Seriously, though. The only battle being waged here is an ideological one, because without once the jihadist ideology is debunked, there will be no need for violence in its name.
Muslims such as the many embroiled in cartoon rage react to criticism as if an act of violence has been perpetrated against them, but respond with the real thing. All the more reason the likes of Iran should never have nukes-- what would they consider as having been struck first?
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 10, 2006 12:38 AM
Caroline,
Do you believe the lives lost in Iraq are innocent lives? Or do you believe everyone in the Middle East is a "terrorist"?
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:38 AM
Waleikum Salam. They will never understand a basic thing. They really believe that we are under some kind of hypnosis, utterly without a conscience, like machines. Thats what a thousandth years brainwashing did to them. Most Muslim I have met object to the 11 September, all important Muslim clerics codemned it.
What is their excuse in not condeming their own crimes? I think I will go to sleep now. I have an exam in History tomorrow, Slavery in Antiquity.
Make a prayer for me.
Tasbach ala kheir achi
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:40 AM
Karim/etc.-
Haven't you guys/gals read the Koran and Hadiths?
Mohammad was a pedophile. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved to theft. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved of terrorizing people into accepting his "faith" at the point of the sword. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved of deceit to gain power. Is that a guy you want to follow?
He thought it was okay to force captive and slave women into "marrying" the murderers of their husbands, fathers and brothers. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad rewrote the Koran's verses*, himself. Is that a guy you want to trust in and follow?
(*The notoriously abrogated "Satanic Verses" which Mohammad gave out, first, to allow profitable polytheism in Mecca, but then "Allah" changed his mind, and said, through "Gibreel": "No, all other images of lesser 'Gods' and 'Goddesses' must go.", so Mohammad had a new 'revelation', a dubious change of mind that makes all of his other suras suspect.
I mean, if one sura can be "wrong", then the messenger himself is a bad vessel for the voice of "Allah" (or whatever it was he thought he was hearing).
Would you follow someone, nowadays, who came up to you and said what Mohammad claimed? A guy in your neighborhood who insisted that an angel was talking to him from God, and that you had to believe him, or die. (Or at least live in second-class serfdom, and pay a ransom to him to be spared death.)
If I now say:
"The angel Michael just spoke to me, and said that Mohammad got every verse in the Koran wrong BUT the 'Satanic Verse', and that EVERYTHING in the Qu'ran was a COMPLETE deception EXCEPT the allowance of polytheism, would you believe me?
Why not?
If you are gullible enough to believe the poorly-documented words (never written down by him, with some lost, or even eaten by a "domestic animal" before they got into the collected-after-his-death Koran) of an illiterate guy (who has been dead for over 1,000 years and who knew nothing of psychology, physics, human history, comparative religion, biology, philosophy or mythology), why not believe me?
I've got a better temperament, sense of humor, grasp of the conscious and unconscious mind , and won't kill you if you disagree with me.
You accept things too easily, too credulously, and lack the leaven of a little skepticism about the worth of dead men's words.
Just because it was passed down for a long time doesn't mean it has any more value than the theory of witches, spontaneous generation from rotting meat, or Mohammed's own 'science' that 'stars are for use as missiles to hit devils with'.
Grow a frontal lobe, and snap your fingrs in front of a mirror. It might break the theocratic hypnosis.
The world may be frightening without a cosmic crutch, but at least you strengthen the one thing worth having: a freed mind.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 10, 2006 12:43 AM
I am sorry Caroline, that was ChinCheck.
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:44 AM
Many of you claim to be civilized and compassionate, yet you have attacked me without even knowing me. - posted by Malik
The Mideast sense of proportionality is in full display, as I started to discuss in my previous post. We have a saying in the West: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me [unless it's a fatwa]."
I'm all for civility; I think the cause is too urgent to give into the desire to take a cheap shot at someone, no matter how creative or inspired you feel at the moment. ;)
So you're right. No one should be attacking you ad hominem. But your ideology is a threat to us, and therefore fair game to be dissected and disputed.
And while you're asking people about their religion, I'm Catholic. And I'd be happy to tell you all that my faith means to me.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 10, 2006 12:47 AM
You may be right profitsbeard, he was just man and now he is dead. But that is all he ever claimed to be. But the one miracle he left is the Koran. I suppose you never heard the rescitation of the Koran to know how hauntigly beautifull that is?
Good night
p.s
Please dont start with the mysterious
"kill all infidels" verse.Generations of
Christians have searched.
at February 10, 2006 12:50 AM
To all here:
As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice.
There is NO God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger and Servant, Fear the day of Recompense when every soul shall taste what he has earned.
Oh Allah bear witness that I have conveyed your message, if it is Your Will they will listen and be saved. I pray that You will make their children and their children's children muslim. Ameen!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:50 AM
Karim:
Your point on how you've been described in various unpleasant terms is well taken, but is also instructive on another level. You are evidently aware enough to put Christians to shame for uncharitable behavior and to point out that their behavior is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. Very good. Then it is a good thing for Christians to act like Christians, yes?
Now please tell us (Malik2day and Musa, you can help as well), if our standards are to be as high as those set be Jesus, who cared for the truth and not for public opinion, Why should Christians pay any attention or honor to Mohammed, who cared for public opinion, the acquisition of wealth and women?
The Bible and Qur'an were each from their beginnings very different books, just as Jesus and Mohammed had fundamentally different, antithetical messages. "By their fruits shall you know them."
Posted by: Chatillon at February 10, 2006 12:55 AM
Malik: "Do you believe the lives lost in Iraq are innocent lives?"
Yes, I think the bulk of iraqis killed have been innocent. But for what it's worth to you, I think Muslims have killed BY FAR more Iraqis than the coalition troops have. But apparently Muslims couldn't give a goddamn how many Muslims other Muslims kill. You couldn't care less. Muslims are the ones egging on other Muslims to kill fellow Muslims in the name of "resistance". It's quite obvious that Muslims ONLY feel outrage when "infidels" cause the death of Muslims.
Do you believe that the Banu Quarayzah were innocent?
And whatever your answer to that, you're an idiot if you are incapable of discerning that noone remotely imagines that George Bush is the final prophet of God - very very far from it - the very idea is a joke - while you think Muhammad was. Big effing difference wouldn't you say?
I have yet to see one Muslim on this forum ADMIT that Muhammad had people killed (even you insist on playing your ridiculous games) and then EXPLAIN how they could consider a murderer the most perfect man and the final prophet of God's word.
at February 10, 2006 1:00 AM
Karim: "As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice."
And as human beings our obligation is to tell the truth about your prophet and your religion, even if it personally hurts your feelings. We have an obligation to inform infidels in order to protect their lives and the lives of their children from your incredibly dangerous delusions.
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 1:06 AM
The natives are restless tonight. The Night of the Trolls. Sounds like a good title for a horror movie. Dont feed the trolls after midnight. Actually watching trolls paint themselves into a corner and try to wiggle out is quite entertaining.
Malik, Karim and Musa. I'm pretty sure Karim is Larry, and Musa's got to be Curly. I'm not so sure about Malik...he could be Shemp, but he could just as easilly be Harpo Marx.
at February 10, 2006 1:14 AM
Malik,
We are not in a courtroom and nothing is on trial. And let's not speak of American standards of justice, let's speak of Islamic standards of justice..where hands are cut off, adulterers stoned, and apostates killed all because your holy man so ordained. I hate all things cruel and inhumane..and if Islam falls in the category then so be it.
I mean, Islamic justice is what counts in the long run right? They practice Sharia in Saudi Arabia, perhaps you'd like to spend some time over there with your brothers in faith.
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 10, 2006 1:40 AM
Hi Guys,
I am from India orginally and we have suffered a lot because of Islamic terrorism for last 3 decades. Its good that the west is waking up to these fanatics. I live in west and value the culture traditions and values here. I truly think that west is a true secular democracy which these muslims can never witness in their own countries. If they dont like western values, freedom of speech, I dont think so that any western went to invite them to come to their country. They came by choice and can leave by choice. If they think that ALLAH is so fragile that it can be insulted by a cartoon, Muslims, please adopt Jewism, Christianity or Hinduism. You might learn to be tolerant. If god wanted us to pray for him 5 times a day, why did he do the effort of sending us on earth, he should have preserved us there to pray 5 times a day.
Jokes apart, Muslims please grow up stop being assholes. The problem with you guys is that 90% plus of Muslims support terrorism or allied activities on name of religion. You hve lost rationality. A Muslim killing 100 muslim is ok, one non muslim fighting that muslim to save next 100, would be fought by the same 100 muslims on the name of God. You guys are drunk from the day one you come into existence.
Well, you talk about discrimination in western countries, haha tell me one true muslim democracy.. I will be surprised if it works for long. There are terror training camps and Madrasas(school of religion, which only teahes quran till kids are 18) in pakistan and afganistan. These guys are trained to hate any other religion.
Question for Muslims, which religion you dont have a problem with?
Christianity... you have
Jew....... you have
Hindu..... you have
Budhism.... you have
well you have problem within yourselves... shia and suni ..dont you. You are aggressive and the only thing you know is to fight.
Work and make something better of your lives and stop being jealous.
Final lesson for everyone else in the world, leave Muslims alone.... they are not worth wasting the time...
Posted by: Aman at February 10, 2006 1:51 AM
karim-
I've heard the Koran recited. It is melodious.
But then so is Dante's "Inferno" in the original Italian.
And so is a lot of glossolalia.
Just because something pleases the ear doesn't mean it isn't squalid nonsense.
"Beware the jabberwock, my son,
The jaws that bite the claws that catch,
Beware the jub-jub tree, and shun
The frumniuous bandersnatch."
That rhymes, too.
Sense requires a little more than mellifluous mermerism.
Belief, a HELL of a lot more.
I'll take a clumsier sounding line like:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Over:
"Waal aadiYAATI DAB-han
faal mooriYAATI KAD-han
faal mogheeRAATI SUB-han
fa atharna beehee NAK-an
fa wasatna beehee JAM-an!"
Hell, I'll take:
"Gnothi seaton." (Know thyself) over the whole ululating Koran.
(And I'll throw in a "Panta Rhea" for free.)
at February 10, 2006 3:02 AM
I am baffled by the stupidity on display by the Mohammedan posters above. A 'Malik' engages in Da'wa, like OBL's call to Islam: "
"As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice...." (or else...!)
A lot of red herrings, like:.."The Prophet did not order the death of those poets.Can you please give me a reference to the 700 jews whose heads were cut off by the prophet?"
Now we know for a fact, that 70 % of Mohammedans in this world are illiterate, stupid and poor. One homo Islamicus above claims that the infidel posters here are 'illiterate' but he wants to see 'proof' that the 'prophet' who never propecied anything whatsoever, killed and tortured and raped, as if he never read the Koran. Perhaps he is another one of those who memorized it in Arabic and doesn't know the meaning of the 164 Jihad verses...
Then, (is it the same poster or another one?), claims we are using 'stereotypes' and 'how could we possibly judge him since we don't know him...', well, we have seen the same claptrap here many times before by other trolls, trying to defend the indefensible:
How can you, Mr. homo Islamicus, follow a 7th century bandit, arsonist, slave-trader, rapist and child molester, how can you believe that an arch-criminal is uswa-hasana, al insan al kamil?
Posted by: sheik yer'mami
at February 10, 2006 3:58 AM
sheik is right. With a few exceptions, most of the posters here who present themselves as Muslims have followed the same tired arguments, issued the same insults against us, and have engaged in the same tactics of evasion and obfuscation.
Not one Muslim has ever provided any evidence that Mohammad was a prophet of God. Why do they believe he was a prophet? They say "We know because Mohammad said so," or "Over a billion people believe it," or "We have the Qur'an as "proof"."
*Quran is not proof of anything, but it falsifies itself (e.g., Allah says sperm originates in a man's back) http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
*Over a billion people believe in Santa Claus or some other mythical character. So what? Argument from popularity is a fallacy. Muslims use this to try and impress people, because they don't have legitimate arguments.
*Mohammad said all kinds of crazy things, many of which no sane, rational person would believe. He also said terribly offensive things, like this:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
-------------------------------------------------
From Aman: "Final lesson for everyone else in the world, leave Muslims alone.... they are not worth wasting the time..."
Muslims with their endless childish tantrums and endless concerns about their self-image, unfortunately, won't leave us alone. This entire controversy over the cartoons is due to a huge number of Muslims having a coordinated narcissistic hissy fit. If anyone hurts their ego-pride, they'll kill for it and claim they are defending their "honour." They are trying to impose their 7th century imperialism and supremacism, following the example of Mohammad. That cannot stand it that non-Muslims exist. They cannot stand it that non-Muslims do not follow Islamic law.
No one in the world today is safe to criticize Islam freely without receiving death threats. This is the same as during Mohammad's reign of terror.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
Anyone who wants to see how Mohammad dealt with critics, go to these links...see
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html ,
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/free_speech.htm ,
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm .
Anyone who wants to see how Mohammad mass-murdered Jews, go to these links
Mohammad’s jihad attacks/massacres against Jewish Tribes:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/jews.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_qaynuqa.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_nadir.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_quraiza.htm
at February 10, 2006 4:50 AM
I must say most of people here are blinded with hate...and its sad.
well going back to the topic "What would Mohammad do"
"It was by the mercy of Allah that you were gentle with them (O, Mohammad) for if you had been harsh and hard of heart they would of dispersed from around you. So pardon them and pray forgiveness for them and consult with them in the affair" (Quran 3:159).
This verse from the Holy Quran indicates that Prophet Mohammad's (sas) attitude was a factor in attracting people to Islam. Any leader who wants to summon people to God should also be gentle and lenient in his personal attitude.
The importance of this verse is that one should be lenient as an individual, but not in principles.
The Holy Prophet (sas) was very firm when it came to principles and showed no flexibility or softness. If some one insulted him, he would forgive them kindly, because that was something related to himself. But if anyone violated Islamic laws and rulings, the Holy Prophet would treat them with severity and justice.
Once someone stopped the Holy Prophet (sas) and claimed that the prophet owed him some money and that he would not let him go unless he received the amount immediately. The Holy Prophet said: "I don't owe anything, but even if I do, let me go home to get you your money". The man said that he would not let the Prophet take another step. Ignoring how gently the Prophet (sas) had
behaved, the man acted fiercely and rudely, to the point that he took the Holy Prophets gown off and wrapped it around his neck and pulled it, until it became bruised.
The Holy Prophet (sas) had been on his way to the Mosque and when people noticed that he was late, they went in search of him and found a Jew obstructing in the way. At that point the Muslims wanted to slap and punish this rude fellow, but the Holy Prophet (sas) said: "No, you people don't interfere, I know what to do with my friend". Observing this humble attitude and leniency, the Jew embraced Islam right there and said: "You are so powerful yet you are so lenient, and this is not possible for an ordinary man. I bear witness there is no God except Allah and that you Mohammad are the messenger of Allah."
When the Holy Prophet (sas) entered Mecca after the city had been conquered, a woman from amongst the wealthy Quraish aristocrats had stolen something important and and according to Islamic rules, her hand had to be cut off. The women was a popular influential figure of Quraish, and her relatives tried to save her by persuading the Prophet not to go ahead with the ruling because the
women was the daughter of such a wealthy and upperclass family and if her hand was to be cut off the whole family would be disgraced.
The Prophet said: "Impossible, I cannot suspend the ruling. If this women was not a member of the aristocracy (rich & famous) you would all agree that she must be punished, but now you say she should not be punished because she would be disgraced. How can I forgive her? Never. The laws of Allah will never be suspended and no excuses will be accepted".
From the two incidents we see that the Holy Prophet (sas) never compromised in matters regarding principles, but when his own interests were in question, he was extremely lenient and generous. Some of the reasons behind the progress of Islam were because of his excellent conduct, attitude and characteristics displayed by the Prophet (sas) and the way he lived.
His great role as a Prophet, Messenger, guide, leader and all the great characteristics of different personalities combined into one man excelled him over all other men in history, and also because of the Holy Quran, which was a miracle given to the Holy Prophet (sas) from Allah. The unique beauty, depth, elegance and attraction of the Holy Quran left a great impact in the spread of Islam.
This is why Allah mentions in the Holy Quran in regards to the greatness of the Holy Prophet.
(Quran 68:4) "And surely you are of an exalted character".
Thus a man who talks or preaches from his heart, will win the hearts of others, and whoever talks and preaches from his mouth, his words will not penetrate hearts. In the messages delivered by men of God, this point is clearly observed but not in the messages of other leaders of the world.
The Holy Prophet Mohammad (sas) transformed the world from it's ignorance and idol worship to that of monotheism and salvation. He carried out the most remarkable tasks under unbelievable hardships but always maintained his kindness, generosity and forgiveness, which truly characterises the messenger of God. In him the highest perfections were assembled. He was in reality that
perfect infallible man before whom the angels were ordered to prostrate. That is why Allah and his angels praise and bless him and those who are faithful are commanded to also praise and bless him and are required to learn, follow and benefit from the life and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad.
Posted by: Fedder at February 10, 2006 4:58 AM
...and I also recommend another site run by ex-Muslims. It is an excellent site.
Main site: http://www.islam-watch.org/
Article on Mohammad, and why he is not worthy of respect.
http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/ProphetCartoons.htm
That's right, I say to Muslims: Respect must be earned. Nobody respects a child who throws temper tantrums and then cries for sympathy. And nobody should respect the killer, rapist, slave-owner, terrorist, hate-monger Mohammad.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 10, 2006 5:05 AM
Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), who was sent to mankind to teach them good moral conduct, learned to control his anger toward the Unbelievers and teach them appropriate expressions. He used to speak against being angry. We think that we have it tough, when one of his days was probably tougher than the whole of our lifetimes! When we look at his life, our own difficulties seem so pathetic in comparison. Imagine spending 13 years completely devoting his life spreading the word of Islam and suffering hardship. This was a man who had the burden of the whole of mankind's future on his shoulder. Yet he had the tolerance and self-discipline to be able to forgive those around him who were themselves so ignorant.
The best example of this was when the Prophet (saw) went to a place called Ta'if. This was at the time when the followers of Islam were at their weakest and the Prophet himself had suffered the loss of both his wife Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her) and his uncle Abu Talib. He went to this town in the hope that they would listen to what he had to say. Instead he was insulted and chased out of the town by the children who threw stones at him till (it was described) the blood flowed from his body to his feet making his sandals sticky with his own blood. The Prophet was so depressed that he prayed to Allah, who then sent down the Angel of the mountains who asked for the Prophet's permission to fold the mountains together and crush to death all those that lived there. But what was the prophet's reply? "Yes, kill them all as they did not listen to me"? No, off course not! His answer was "No, I hope Allah will bring from them people who will worship Allah alone, associating none with Him."
This was the example of the Prophet, even though he felt bitterness and was very angry with them, he had the discipline and control to not let his emotions control his actions and he forgave them realizing that they were merely misguided.
One companion asked him, Give me some advice by virtue of which I hope for good in the life hereafter, and he said, "Don't be angry." Another person asked, what will save me from the wrath of God, and he said, "Do not express your anger." A third person asked three times, 0 Messenger of Allah, give me an order to do a short good deed, and he said, "Don't be angry." Once he asked a question of his companion, "Who among you do you consider a strong man?" They said, the one who can defeat so-and-so wrestler in a fight, and he said, that is not so. The one who is strong is the one who can control himself at the time of anger. He also said that anger is like fire, which destroys you from within, and it can also lead you to the fire of hell by your own expressions of anger unjustly.
Posted by: Fedder at February 10, 2006 5:12 AM
Why the hell are the majority of you so xenophobic? You're acting like we in the West have to kill all the Muslims before we can live in peace (maybe no one explicated this specifically but that seems to be the pervasive if unspoken sentiment). You can't just massacre 1.3+ billion people you morons!
Regardless of whether Mohammad was a murdering tyrant or not, if a large portion of his followers are peaceful, than we should have no problems with them. Obviously there's also a large portion of his followers that are fascists and/or murderers (or harbor murderous intentions), and they are at whom you should be pointing your crosshairs.
Despite your claims to the contrary, some of the Muslims on this board are acting far more rational than a majority of you. So try to tone down the mob psychology and the xenophobia...seriously, you're starting to sound like the radical Clerics. And please remember, Christianity (as I understand is the religion of several of the more radical posters here) has quite a bloody history in and of itself (Salem Witch Trials and the Inquisitions immediately come to mind), so please step down from your high horses. And with all the talk about the way that Islam is attempting to impose its laws on non-Muslim Westerners, remember that Christians do the same exact thing in America (anti-gay marriage laws, attempts at institutionalizing the teachings of creationism via the intelligent design agenda).
And before you get your fingers all fired up - no, I'm not a multiculturalist, I'm only trying to put things into perspective. I completely support the Danes and I'm definitely on your side (although I don't hate Muslims in general).
I'm an atheist and personally I think all religion is irrational, although perhaps some religions are more irrational than others.
Cheers,
Nate
at February 10, 2006 5:18 AM
The actions of the founder of Islam speak louder than his words. His fruits include allowing his disciples to rape, enslave, mutilate and kill--and call that justice and legitimate. His followers today continue his example of death and destruction.
The Person who angels fall prostrate to is Jesus, who alone by word and example was loving, kind, forgiving, compassion and perfect in every way. Jesus healed a blind man...Mohammad ordered one killed. Jesus healed an older woman with a fever. Mohammad had an older woman tied between camels and tore her apart. Jesus blessed the little children. Mohammad had sex with one. Jesus restored a man's hand...and as you say, Mohammad ordered a woman's hand to be cut off and for other people's limbs to be severed. Jesus never raped a woman. Mohammad took a women whose husband was killed by his war and then raped her the same day her husband was murdered, and he told his men they could rape women who were taken in battle and make them pregnant..forcing them to carry the children of their rapists...the followers of Mohammad. Jesus raised people from the dead and never killed anyone. Mohammad killed and had people killed.
It is truly amazing to hear all these Muslims committing acts of violence yelling that the founder of Islam needs their blood and their lives to redeem him. But, Jesus used His own blood to redeem us. And there is nothing I have to work around or explain about or apologize about Jesus my King, because He is the truly noble One unlike the founder of Islam. It is too late for Mohammad to be redeemed, but it is not too late for you, Fedder.
Posted by: Abby
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