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In "What would Muhammad do?: History suggests the prophet was more pragmatic than followers rioting in his name," in the LA Times (thanks to James), Jamil Momand, a professor of biochemistry at Cal State Los Angeles, says that the cartoon ragers should follow Muhammad's example:
Some Muslims may say that public opinion does not matter when it comes to Islam. Yet if one examines the life of the prophet Muhammad, one would conclude that he carefully considered public opinion. When he negotiated a treaty with Arabs who were at war with him, he did not insist that his title as "prophet" be placed in the document (this act horrified his companions, to the point where they thought it was sacrilege). Instead, he had his name written as simply Muhammad, the son of Abdulla. This placated his enemy and was essential to successfully concluding the treaty, which gave the Muslims an extended period of peace that allowed them to publicize Islam. In fact, the opportunity the treaty created may be responsible for Islam's existence.Yes, the prophet cared deeply about public opinion. Now if only Muslims would follow his lead.
The problem is, the cartoon ragers may believe that they are already following Muhammad's lead.
Momand thus joins Amir Taheri in suggesting that today's violent cartoon ragers would have displeased the founder of Islam himself. Taheri asserted in the Opinion Journal yesterday that "The truth is that Islam has always had a sense of humor and has never called for chopping heads as the answer to satirists. Muhammad himself pardoned a famous Meccan poet who had lampooned him for more than a decade." Both Momand and Taheri are only looking at part of the evidence about Muhammad, and generalizing without warrant.
In fact, the prophet asked his followers to assassinate poets who had insulted him -- Abu 'Afak and 'Asma bint Marwan -- and rejoiced at their deaths. When the killer of 'Asma reported his deed to Muhammad, Muhammad replied: "You have helped Allah and His Apostle, O Umayr!" (The Sira of Ibn Ishaq, 995-996).
What was Abu 'Afak's offense? He composed a poem praising some of Muhammad's opponents, and lamenting their defeat by the Muslims: "A rider who came to them split them in two, saying 'Permitted,' 'Forbidden,' all sorts of things" -- which was a small jab at the legalism of Islam. Muhammad accordingly asked for his death. When 'Asma bint Marwan heard he was dead, she was angry, and her poem calls in turn for the death of Muhammad after Abu 'Afak was murdered: "Is there no man of pride who would attack [Muhammad] by surprise and cut off the hopes of those who expect aught from him?" But as a woman in 7th century Arabia, she was in little position to make good on this call or influence anyone else to do so. Muhammad had no reason to treat her as a serious threat. Nonetheless he called for -- and received -- her death also.
On another occasion Muhammad was at prayer when his enemies provoked him with a vile deed: “Narrated ‘Abdullah: While the Prophet was in the state of prostration, surrounded by a group of people from [the] Mushrikun [unbelievers] of the Quraish, ‘Uqba bin Abi Mu’ait came and brought the intestines of a camel and threw them on the back of the Prophet.”
The prophet found in this undeniable humiliation no occasion for mercy: “The Prophet did not raise his head from prostration till Fatima (i.e. his daughter) came and removed those intestines from his back, and invoked evil on whoever had done (that evil deed). The Prophet said, ‘O Allah! Destroy the chiefs of Quraish, O Allah! Destroy Abu Jahl bin Hisham, ‘Utba bin Rabi’a, Shaiba bin Rabi’a, ‘Uqba bin Abi Mu’ait, ‘Umaiya bin Khalaf (or Ubai bin Kalaf).’ Later on I saw all of them killed during the battle of Badr and their bodies were thrown into a well except the body of Umaiya or Ubai, because he was a fat man, and when he was pulled, the parts of his body got separated before he was thrown into the well.” (Bukhari, vol. 4, book 58, no. 3185 -- print edition numbering)
In sum, there is ample evidence that this was not a man who thought a soft answer turned away wrath, or who was interested in turning the other cheek and reacting with gentleness when insulted or humiliated. The cartoon ragers may well see in him not only one whose honor they must avenge, but whose example in the face of insults they must follow.
Posted by Robert at February 9, 2006 4:01 PM
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mohammed executed poets.
Posted by: Founding Forefather![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at February 9, 2006 4:41 PM
No duplication, character or otherwise. No replication in ANY FORM.
How many people to you know with the name Muhammad? This is sacrilidge.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 9, 2006 4:42 PM
This sounds like a university course that would get many applications.
Posted by: moz_art at February 9, 2006 4:45 PM
Most likely he would do exactly what he had been doing all along throughout his sorry adult life as a career criminal and mass murderer: he would tell the uneducated Arab masses the Jews were to blame and then use these enflamed minions to attack masses of Jews with the intent to kill thousands of them (and at least partly succeed).
Posted by: pythagoras at February 9, 2006 4:46 PM
It's strategic necessity that made him "non-violent" when he was weak. The same cunning a criminal uses to get a lighter sentence, while buying him time to start plotting payback.
Once the power shifted in Mohammad's favor, the sword came down.
Islam feels that the power has shifted in their favor.
So the mask can come off.
The p.c. somnambulists in the West are surprised at this apparent change.
Had they read the Koran (and Hadiths) they could have simply said, with Claude Rains in "Casablanca": (when being told by a Nazi that "there is gambling going on in this place"... [as he collects his winnings from the night before]) "I'm shocked, shocked!".
With a wry smile.
However, I am against journalists giving tactical advice to our enemies.
I want more cartoon riots. More threats. More irrationality. More mayhem. More embassy burnings.
Otherwise the West may doze back off into the Religion of Peace delusion.
Let the pax mask STAY OFF.
Keep the heat on Islam.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 9, 2006 4:51 PM
The idea that islam is basically the same as christianity or judaism is nothing short of an insult to the intelligence of anybody who does even a cursory bit of research. Christ preached peace -- Mohammed preached jihad. There ain't no turn the other cheek in islam.
islam sucks.
fight it.
at February 9, 2006 4:51 PM
I have nothing good to say about Muhammad, so I'll just not say a damn thing.
at February 9, 2006 4:54 PM
Most people know know about his sex with a 9 year old girl. But how many know about his cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of men and boys after the siege of Medina? He watched throughout the day as small groups of men and boys were led to a newly dug trench, hands tied, and then beheaded.
Let's get that little fact out about him.
Murder and paedophilia. What a wonderful combination.
Posted by: Celsius at February 9, 2006 5:01 PM
What would mo do?
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 9, 2006 5:02 PM
What would Mohammed do? Well, "not necessarily" Mohammed reporting live in Toon Trouble courtesy of satirist Mark Fiore in the San Francisco Chronicle. (Shockwave Flash plugin required to view.)
Posted by: Lisa at February 9, 2006 5:20 PM
What would Mohammed do? Depending on the situation, he would do whatever would best suit his the moment to press his advantage. He wouldn't hesitate to call for a truce in order to gain strength in order to rage at a later date. Thus, today's Muslims, whether peaceful or ragers, are two sides of the same coin...
Posted by: epg at February 9, 2006 5:23 PM
Virgins???
Where are all the young virgins????
at February 9, 2006 6:16 PM
If you want an idea of what Mohammed would do, we can look at the long-term history, starting with his life. The history of Islam from it's first breaths is incredibly violent.
As a professor of Western Civilization, I have no doubts about Islam's global intentions.
They were only stopped in the 17th century because of the economic take-off of Europe which left most of the Islamic world as a stagnant backwater. We agree with Hillaire Belloc, the Moslems have not attacked the West lately only because they could not, out of political, economic, and cultural impotence.
Now oil has change all of that.
Glance at the slimmed-down chronology over at The Dumb Ox
or the direct link,
http://thomistic.blogspot.com/2006/02/religion-of-peace.html
All the best,
D. Ox
at February 9, 2006 7:07 PM
Reading that stuff gives me a vision of some bizarre synthesis of the "Flintstones" and "Klingons".
'Cept the Klingons were cool.
Virtual-reality- bah...
Posted by: kentim at February 9, 2006 7:25 PM
Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR, posted a "What would Muhammed do" on their web site. He isn't exactly honest about what Muhammed did do. The woman who harassed him was his uncle's wife. Both he (Lahab) and his wife are the subject of Sura CXI. The last verse says that she will have a twisted rope of palm-leaf fiber put around her neck. He says nothing about the poetess, Asma bint Marwan who was killed in her bed while she was nursing her baby, and of course there is no mention of one of his scribes who quit after he was permitted to change the wording of a revelation that Muhammed had recited to him. He fled to Mecca and his life was spared only at the intervention of Uthman.So perhaps the violent protestor aren't as out of line as the more moderates would have you believe.
woodrock
Posted by: woodrock at February 9, 2006 7:35 PM
Lowell Ponte on FrontPage mag also has a
similarly ignorant WWMD article. I guess
anyone with a soapbox is a !@#$ing expert, and can
prat on and on about topics they know nothing about.
at February 9, 2006 7:49 PM
Amir Taheri, mentioned above, is another representative not only of the moderate Muslim, but of one who is practically a "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslim. A gentleman of the old Iranian school, where classmates have such last names as Hoveyda and Tabatabai, and everyone names his children Cyrus and Darius, or possibly Kaveh, but never Mohammed, Taheri gets many things right. He is a truth-teller, up to a point, of the kind we are all so familiar with -- Fouad Ajami and Kanan Makiya come to mind. They despise Edward Said, despise the vulgarity of Arab political life and its despots. But they just can't bring themselves to the point of adequately describing, truthfully describing, Islam. They have their own "dream palace" which is of a benign Islam, compounded of those memories of elderly pious relatives (a grandmother will do), and the smells of the Iftar dinner, and the quiet piety of Muslims they had known growing up, and of course, of collective memories of some fabulously wonderful, the stuff of coffee-table books, a hodgepodge of mostly Ottoman visual memories, Sinanesque mosques, and Iznik tiles, and turbans on wise old scholars at the House of Philosophers (one Muslim, one Christian, one Jew), and they are not about to let little things like the real history of the treatment of non-Muslims under Muslim rule, that led to many Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists to convert, not through the immediate forcible converstion, but through the slow stillicide of the many legal, financial, political, and social disabilities, whose sum was that state of humiliation, degradation, and permanent physical insecurity (for failure to pay the Jizyah or to obey all the rules laid down could cause an entire community of non-Muslims to suffer) that was their lot as dhimmis under Muslim rule.
Taheri's version of Muhammad simply does not accord with that of Tor Andrae, of Maxine Rodinson, of Sir William Muir, of Arthur Jeffery. They, of course, are all non-Muslims. But his version does not accord, either, with the most authoritative Muslim versions of the Sira, either. What leads him to write, in the pages of the Wall Street Journal, that Muhammad took criticism gracefully, and had a good sense of humor about it all, when his attitude was mmuch more akin to that of Stalin, in those late night sessions in the Kremlin with his terrified cronies, ordering the assassination of this or that enemy of the state, and of Stalin.
Taheri writes most often for My Weekly Standard. He is not quite the worshipper of Islam that the sufferer from Weiss-Schwartz Syndrome is, nor is he quite so enamored of al-Sistani and the wonderful Shi'a as Reuel Gerecht has, waveringly, been. But he's a Good Iranian, a worldly, Iranian-in-Paris kind of testifier to Islam, and so it is even more deceptive when he writes the kind of thing that is delicately disassembled above.
What makes Taheri do it? He knows perfectly well what Muhammad is like. Can't stand to tell others? Afraid to tell others? Just can't bring himself to face up to it?
What is it?
We all want to know.
Posted by: Hugh at February 9, 2006 7:52 PM
What I wonder is why the old (2002) Doug Marlette editorial cartoon (just remembered it, thinking of this article's headline) 'WHAT WOULD MOHAMMED DRIVE?" never got the reaction that the 12 Danish cartoons did?
Mo is tooling along in a Ryder van with a nuke in the back. Far more 'inflammatory' than ANYTHING the Danes dared do. A nuclear terrorist! Mohammad! How dare that infidel dog show such a defamatory image of the pedophile "prophet"!!
Were the Muslims less willing to piss people off so soon after 9/11? And were just biding their time till the dhimmis got lazier and weaker?
Still visible here:
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 9, 2006 8:15 PM
Epg: “What would Mohammed do? Depending on the situation, he would do whatever would best suit his the moment to press his advantage. He wouldn't hesitate to call for a truce in order to gain strength in order to rage at a later date. Thus, today's Muslims, whether peaceful or ragers, are two sides of the same coin...”
Notice that's exactly what this writer does. He says, "Yet if one examines the life of the prophet Muhammad, one would conclude that he carefully considered public opinion…..
This placated his enemy and was essential to successfully concluding the treaty, which gave the Muslims an extended period of peace that allowed them to publicize Islam."
So Muhammad was a taqiyyah master. As is this writer, whether he consciously realizes it or not. What he betrays in this piece is his singular focus on spreading Islam. I don't recall either Jesus or the Buddah giving a hoot about something so base as "public opinion". They were too focused on Truth, and trying to rescue human beings from suffering, to give a damn about public opinion.
Something I have noticed about Muslims describing their prophet - they have a great tendency to focus on the superficial externals. How Muhammad walked and how Muhammad carried himself and even how Muhammad smelled. How he could sit so calmly and unperturbably, even while ordering murder. Perhaps Muslims understand very little about the personalities and characters of consummate psychopaths. They seem to have such great admiration for Muhammad's calm, controlled exterior but are completely lacking in any understanding that the most successful malignant narcissists and psychopaths in history HAVE BEEN incredibly controlled and disciplined.
Muslims are utter and complete slaves of the EXTERNAL manifestation of things and utterly mistake external appearances for reality. For example, they mistake external appearances of "piousness" - the very public and external show (almost theater) of prayer and dress and diet - for actual piety and spirituality, when it's obviously anything BUT spirituality.
But who cares how well Hitler carried himself? Who cares that he was disciplined enough to be a vegetarian? Maybe he even smelled good for all I know. Maybe he rose at 5am every single day and did his ritual exercises. Lots of psychopaths are incredibly disciplined.
Muslims - Forget the externals! Forget the cartoons. Forget about what happens to every single Koran - whether it winds up in a gutter or gets accidentally soiled. And forget about Muhammad's impressive external appearance.
It's what's INSIDE that counts. And Muhammad killed and stole and lied. Anything to spread Islam. That's a fact! The whole rest of the world - some 4 billion people (since you're so very fond of citing statistics) GETS THAT. Why don't you?
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 8:22 PM
Anyone who seen or read "the godfather" knows that it's main appeal lies in the revelation of the Cult of HONOR that permeated the early Sicilian mafia and it's American siblings.
And i believe even the word "mafia" derives from the arabic- a left over from Sicily's Islamic past ?
In this cult of honor, respect is of paramount importance. indeed lack of respect (or its perception) represents shaming and its response must be swift and violent. Hence the advent of the vendetta.
interestingly enough i have concluded that this has a deep paralel with islam and coincidentally "Respect" is also the name of Galloway's hideous political party.
So the response of muslims to percived grievances must be based on "Honour" and the teaching of respect to the infidel.
When thousands upon thousands of Muslims rejoice in the tragedy of 911 , it is a mistake to believe that the source of rejoicing is the death of thousands of American innocents, The primary source of enjoyment is actually the RESTORATION OF THE HONOR OF ISLAM caused by the percieved infidels lack of respect.
This cult of Honor within islam is so strong that it negates any feelings of guilt in much of the muslim population. And indeed any traces of such guilt are displaced promptly onto the americans or the Jews and so vanish.
A dilligent Blogger whose site i forget has chronicled over 4000 islamic terror attacks since 911.
Most would agree that few muslims bear any guilt for these outrages.
Why do they feel no guilt. are they not after all human beings like the rest of us?
It is because they see them as avenging the honor of Islam and like the mafiosi of "the godfather" there is no guilt in the avenging of dishohour
Those Arabs at the top of the heap must continually invent new outrages against islam to keep the fire of the cult of honour burning.
And so we have the "cartoon outrages"-deliberate manoevres to keep outrage in the minds of the hordes of "useful islamic idiots ", whose main purpose will be to conquer the west, in the same way the the palestinians have been used for sixty years to eliminate Israel.
So on the one hand we have a cult of honour and on the other we have in the west what i call a cult of Guilt.
The cult of guilt is a relatively new phenomenon which has gained strength since the end of WW2.
it has led to unfettered multiculturism, a state of mind which excuses even the most horrific outrages brought against us and placed the blame squarely on our own shoulders.
For years so many of us have been taught to be ashamed of our culture of imperialism and colonialism and to look to other cultures for "enlightenment". Those chickens are now roosting.
Fortunately this cult is limited to the educationalists,the media, and certain political party activists. It is precisely the reason why Islam has managed to gain such huge victories within our midst.
we need to replace our culture of guilt not by a culture of honor but by a culture of self belief of love and real understnding for our democratic achievements. We need to accept understand and forgive the excesses of our own governments and realise the millions have died before us, to enable us to enjoy the freedoms we have today.
at February 9, 2006 9:06 PM
I don't recall either Jesus or the Buddah giving a hoot about something so base as "public opinion" ... Something I have noticed about Muslims describing their prophet - they have a great tendency to focus on the superficial externals - posted by Caroline
Fantastic post.
And yet, like so many other religious movements that cropped up after Christianity came on the scene, Islam still tries to appropriate Jesus to shore up its "legitimacy" (like holding an old Chevette together with duct tape) and siphon off followers.
Islam wins where Christians are weak in their faith, either personally, or through institutionalized spinelessness in their churches.
Then, "oh, we revere Jesus, too" is enough to divert followers into Mohammed's trap. But unlike the Old/New Testaments in the Bible, Muslims don't get to read what came before their Koran to see how thoroughly incompatible the teachings of Jesus are with those of Muhammad.
Christian religious education need to follow the lead of other faiths in the area of doing a better job of arming its students against those who would try to proselytize them, as politically incorrect as it may be.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 9:10 PM
Now, then... when will the WWMD ("What Would Mohammed Do?" bracelets hit the scene?
Hehheh. WMD. But they could get around that with W.W.M.P.B.U.H.D.?
Catchy!
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 9, 2006 9:14 PM
it is quiet clear that most of you just have new idea whats so ever about the last messanger from god muhummed , most of what u guys say bad about prophet muhummed peace on him is repeated by those who has a n agenda against islam with out knowledge of what his message is , he came with the same message that prophets befor him came with to belive and worship one almighty god ... moses in the bible ( detueronmy 6.4 ) says o .isreal THE LORD OUR LORD IS ONE LORD ..and jesus peace on him sais the first of all commandement is HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD ..MARK 12.29 and then muhummed peace on him came with the same message after 600 years after jesus peace on him .the message of prophet muhummed is AND YOUR GOD IS ONE GOD,THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE ..QURAN 2.163 . he and his followers went through hardshiphis, his campanions were slaughtred , his relatives boycotted him , his followers traveled to africa to escape from the killing in mecca because of their only beleive in one almighty god , no one equals to him ,and he does not begot and he is not begoten , his wealthy famaily that worship idols offered to him all the money and to be the king of mecca and he refused ,and he told them that if u put the moon in my right hand and the sun in my left to leave preaching for one almighty god ,i will not .. he was boycotted and his campanions for three years ,the ate the leaves of the trees from hunger and they stood up to their belife ,he had to migrate with the belivers from his town for his belife .. then when he got stronger he came back to mecca peacfully , no sigle blood been shattered , he forgave all those who were against him ,... he came as a messanger from god , a mercy from god to warn all humanity that there is only one god to worship since adam time ,and there is a life after and there will be a day of judgement for every thing u did in this life , so a man like him after all he did for us ,u want us to sit and watch ,, no way we will ... but all the violence we are against
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 9:19 PM
chevalier de st george - Absolutely. There can be no doubt about what you are describing. Islam basically amounts to a "protection racket". The intimidation we're seeing with the cartoons - you do what we say and we won't kill you - appears to be part of the same phenomenon. Doesn't the Islamic jizya strike one as the very model of the mafiosa? You get to live as long as you pay us off?
"And i believe even the word "mafia" derives from the arabic- a left over from Sicily's Islamic past ?"
Excellent question/issue to raise. Historians out there - can you answer that question? What is the historical connection of the mafia to islam? Inquiring minds want to know.
at February 9, 2006 9:37 PM
I am new to commenting, but I have read this and the Dhimmiwatch site for some time.
There is no other major world religion whose faithful will riot violently in the streets all over the world at the publication of cartoons, books or films which defame their religion. Remember the Dutch filmmaker Van Gogh, who was murdered last year, because he shot a film showing the violence against women in the Muslim world? (Even though women, ARE, in fact, treated like crap throughout most of the Muslim world)
Of the major armed conflicts in the world, nearly every one one of them invlove a Muslim power on one side.
I am not anti-Muslim. I am anti-fundamentalism.
I am just as opposed to Christian, Sikh, Jewish, etc. extremists performing acts of violence in the name of their God or Gods. It is simply that right now, Muslims are paracticing this violence in the largest numbers, and on a worldwide scale. No good can come of the arrogance of religious fervor.
Religious fundamentalism is the enemy of everything that makes it so wonderful to be a human being, and blocks progress, intellectual curiousity, and original thought.
at February 9, 2006 9:38 PM
musa,
It is clear that you are either a liar, or
you know nothing at all about the life of the
pedophile prophet you worship, as described in
your own canonical texts. Why don't you learn
just who it is we mean when we say Abu Afak,
or Asma bint Marwan? As it is, you have nothing
to contribute but bland statements about how
your death cult is a religion of peace.
Now, who should I believe, you, or my
lying eyes?
at February 9, 2006 10:02 PM
Shinoliite: "Islam still tries to appropriate Jesus to shore up its "legitimacy""
Look at an example from this very article of what you're describing:
“I know the intellectual, religious and legal arguments used to defend the position that such cartoons should never be published: Muslims respect the figures from the Abrahamic faiths, including Moses, Jesus and Mary. Why can't others reciprocate?”
Muslims respect the figures of Moses , Jesus and Mary? Who the hell is this guy kidding? No they don't. Maybe Muslims refrain from DEPICTING them graphically but what the hell does THAT have to do with respect? Muslims DESPISE Jews and Christians. Do they seriously think that refraining from something as superficial and external and silly as DRAWING the sacred figures of other religions, while at the same time assuming the god-given right to KILL the followers of said prophets somehow equates to RESPECT?
Muslims are downright stupid or they are liars - one.
Posted by: Caroline
at February 9, 2006 10:17 PM
this is the truth to the whole world that prophet muhummed peace on him came with the same message as all prophets from god since adam time preached for to believe in the only one almighty god that nothing equals to him and he does not begot and he is not begotten ... i showed u evidenes , i stand firmly by what i write
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 10:18 PM
Musa,
Muhammad did in fact call people to worship this one God (who threatens everyone with hell who does not obey, with the slightest doubt, "the messenger" and all his decrees) but that does not mean what is written in the Quran is not in contradiction with the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said love your enemies and bless those who curse you. Jesus revoked the laws later picked up by Islam such as stoning adulterers and eye for an eye. He gave the example of the Good Samaritan who helped a complete stranger. He told of people who are blessed, not those who are cursed.
It is well-documented that the prophet of Islam murdered his enemies,prayed to God to curse them, stoned adulterers, and had nine wives.
Most of the sickening barbarity of the Old Testament was a thing of the past until Islam decided it was to be implemented once more.
There is value in the teachings of Jesus, but I fail to see what is so noble about the mission of calling to "the one true God." Especially that cruel and inhumane God portrayed in the Old Testament and the Quran.
And when people ask "What Would Jesus Do?" they are often looking for the most original and correct way of reacting to a given situation. A perfect example is when Jesus is asked by priests whether the stoning of the adulterer is permitted. Jesus reacted in an original and correct way by sparing the "sinner" and confounding those who were scrutinizing him.
The same cannot be asked or said of Muhhammad
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 9, 2006 10:30 PM
I am glad that blind poetess Asma Bint Marwan
is being remembered. There needs to be a memorial
for the blind poetess who had extra ordinary courage to stand up for truth. She
was a true hero. People need to know.
at February 9, 2006 10:33 PM
The real story of the Poets
The Makkans were preparing themselves against the Muslims for a greater battle. The adversaries of Islam in Madinah set out to malign the Muslims at the same time through satire carried out by poets. The Arabs satiric poetry was worse to bear than a sword cut or spear wound. One such Medinite poet was Ka’b bin Al Ashraf, who went to Makkah, stayed there four months and after instigating the Makkans against the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) returned to Madinah. On his return he used to recite his venomous poetry at public places of Madinah. He also incited other people to recite aloud his verses after him.
A woman Asma Bint Marwan was also among such poets. Her satiric verses were against the Muslims, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), the Holy Qur’an, Jibril and Allah. Those verses greatly irritated Muslims. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was also quite discomforted by her poetry. He was an extremely tolerant and a patient person, therefore he did not take action against her. In Surah Al-Asr is mentioned:
1.
By (the Token of)
Time (through the Ages),
2.
Verily Man, Is in loss,
3.
Except such as have Faith,
And do righteous deeds,
And (join together)
In the mutual teaching
Of Truth, and of
Patience and Constancy.
(Surah Al’Asr)
In the Holy Qur’an, patience and fortitude have been mentioned several times and each time Allah has instructed people not to let fortitude and patience be lost. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) himself was a glorious example of patience. However, the ordinary Muslims could not hear such poetry directed against their Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and their religion. They were greatly hurt since they were witnessing these poets openly blaspheming and airing lampoonery against their Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and Allah. The Muslims could have tolerated such attacks against themselves but it was too trying to bear such insulting remarks against the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) and Allah. One day, a blind Muslim (Umain bin Awf) entered the house of Asma Bint Marwan and stabbed her to death.
The next day the people were greatly surprised to know that she has been stabbed by Umair bin Awf as the task appeared impossible for a blind man. He was among her near relations and had lived there for years. He was well familiar with every nook and corner of her house, her habits and the place where she slept.
The news quickly spread in Madinah. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) heard the news in the Mosque. When that blind man came to the Mosque, the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) inquired, "Is it you who has killed her?"
He replied, "Yes! O Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) of Allah! I have killed her last night and I am not least ashamed of it".
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was saddened as he hated bloodshed. He was also pained to know that anti-Islamic elements were taking undue advantage of the patience of the Muslims. They were instigating them to take measures against their will. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was helpless to interfere in matters regarding Asma’s murder: as according to the pact of Madinah, each tribe was autonomous in its internal affairs. When the murderer and the murdered belonged to the same tribe, intrusion by another person was undesirable. The punishment could only be imposed by their tribe.
Ka’b bin Ashraf was killed by a Muslim named Abu Naila and again the murdered and the murderer belonged to the same tribe. Another such poet Abu A’fk was also killed by a Muslim (Salim bin Umair) of his tribe.
In some historic books, these men have been mentioned as: Umair bin Au’f who killed Asma Bint Marwan, Sa’lim bin Umair, who killed Abu A’fk and Abu Naila, who killed Ka’b bin Ashraf.
In spite of these killings, satiric poetry continued. However, this time, the Jews also joined hands with these poets.
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) advised the Jews to abstain from vexation and reminded them of their bondage by Madinah pact, which required them not to ally with the enemies of the Muslims. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) held a meeting with the chieftain of "Zargar" tribe to improve the ties between the Muslims and the Jews.
The Jews were separated by three occupations. One took to agriculture, the other to goldsmithry and the third lived by tanning of hides.
In Islamic history, they have also been named as: Banu Qareedah, Banu Nazir and Banu Qaneqah. Banu Qareedah was the most powerful and the richest. Most of its people earned through goldsmithry. It was in the knowledge of the chieftain of Jews that an army of many thousand was going to ravage the Muslims. He met the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) with indifference. He was among those who had contrived against the Muslims in case of their invasion by the Makkans. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) reminded him about the pact and said that observance of law was the same for everyone. He also pointed out that the Muslims had not violated the pact, yet the Jews had been very active against them through their sarcastic poetry. The Muslim tolerance was being taken for cowardice; although that was not the case. The Muslims had proved in the battle of Badr that they were not afraid of anyone. They did not want to strain the relations between the Muslims and the Jews by any vengeful measures. It was desirable that the Jews stopped teasing the Muslims and abide by the terms of "Methaq-e-Madinah".
The chieftain rudely replied, "O Abul Qasim! Battle of Badr had made you and your people arrogant and they have started believing you will be victorious in every battle! You are unaware that you fought with your kind and have not fought with the Jews. You do not know how valiant the Jews are".
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) replied with great forbearance, "We do not want to fight with you, rather we want to maintain good ties with you. I know about the approaching army, therefore you do not want to side with us but the least you can do is to stay neutral". The Jews had so many expectations from the Kufar of Makkah that their chieftain did not even promise to stay neutral. He said that it depended upon the conduct of the Muslims. If their attitude was satisfactory, they would remain neutral.
While the Muslims were observing an amiable and tolerant attitude, an ugly incident occurred. One day when a Muslim girl was passing through the market of goldsmiths, some Jewish boys encircled and started to tease her. They later tried to dis-honour her. A Jew stepped out of a nearby shop and tied the edge of her dress to a post. When she tried to run away, the edge of her dress was torn and some part of her body became exposed.
A Muslim was passing by. He saw this happening. He was quite infuriated by this insult. He hit the Jew on the head. The other Jews pounced upon him and killed him. The Muslims demanded blood-money from the Qaneqah tribe, but they refused. Such refusal meant declaration of battle. All the Jewish tribesmen including seven hundred warriors entrenched themselves in their fortress like houses. They were not afraid of the Muslims as they were comforted by the approaching army led by Abu Sufyan.
The Muslims surrounded the colony of the goldsmiths for two weeks. Meanwhile no-one from the Muslims or the Jews was injured. After two weeks, the Jews received the news that the Makkan army had not even moved out of Makkah, let alone reach Madinah. Hence they had to surrender. The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) always showed clemency towards the subdued, therefore he took nothing except weapons from them and left it to their will either to come into Faith or to leave Madinah forever.
The Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) also allowed them to take with them whatever they liked. The Jews took everything with them, sparing not even doors and windows of their houses. On leaving Madinah, they were divided in two groups. One left southwards to join the army of the Kufar to annihilate the Muslims. The other group set off towards one of the Jewish cities of Arabia.
Although the expulsion of Jews from Madinah had lessened the number of anti-Islamic elements still the remaining number of the Jews was quite great. The Quraysh of Makkah also suffered loss by this Jewish exile, as they were deprived of those seven hundred Jewish warriors who could have joined them for the attack on Madinah.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 10:37 PM
The religion of anarchy.
Mo's followers do this:
http://www.fomi.nu/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
Posted by: Borg at February 9, 2006 10:38 PM
u are not implemeting the teaching of jesus peace on him where he says the first of all commanemet . MARK 12.29 hear o isreal the lord our god is one lord ..where do u stand from that ... on 325 the dotrine of trinity was created ,it was never preached by any single prophet since adam time including jeasus peace on him ... trinity was man made ..300 bishops got together and issued this doctrine ... so god sent muhummed as the last messanger from god as a mercy to all humanity to correct this man made doctrine and others who worship idols ,and to preach as all prophets preached for including moses and jesus peace on all of them to belive in one only almnighty god that no one equals to him and god is not begottn and does not begot
Posted by: musa at February 9, 2006 10:47 PM
Peace to everyone,
My name is Malik and this is my first time on this blog. I posted the complete story about the poets, Ka’b bin Al Ashraf and Asma Bint Marwan.
If you read the story then I'm sure you have noticed the irony that parallels what's happening today.
The artist and newspaper were well aware that making such a drawing would cause an uproar in the Islamic community. Unfortunately, some muslims have choosen to over-react. In my opinion they are not completely to blame.
Iran has choosen to print hurtful cartoons about the jewish holocust and that is sure to stir up pain in the jewish community. I don't agree with this strategy, however, I understand the reasoning behind it.
Its very simple... if each of us respects the beliefs of the other than we would find more commonality and less irrationality.
I don't post this as an apology nor as a justification it is merely my own personal observation.
-Malik
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 10:55 PM
Musa and Malik - Oh for Pete's sake. Grow the hell up. Why don't you give yourselves a break and stop trying to do the impossible bending your heads around the obvious fact that your prophet was a mass murderer? And even if you could seriously manage explaining that away - you'd still need to bend yourselves into pretzels trying to come up with some good explanation of why your prophet robbed folks, lied, took slaves, married a 6 year old girl etc etc. Give it up guys. Seriously. The rest of the human race is quite willing to welcome you with open arms once you get past your primitive and barbaric "Us" vs "Them" stupidity.
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 10:56 PM
Caroline~ some Must try. Please give them a chance.
Posted by: Gary at February 9, 2006 10:59 PM
Caroline,
Can you please give me an example of the Prophet commiting "Mass Murder". If you are correct I will acknowledge it.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:06 PM
uh oh folks, looks like I did it again....
Mr. Parvez Ahmad,
In reading your Op-Ed titled: Respect, Restraint answer to cartoon flap, I have a few questions.
You wrote: "At the core of the reactions in the Muslim world are fears about Western motives, bolstered by lack of redress of ongoing grievances."
1. What "fear about Western motives" are you talking about? Specifically?
2. What "lack of redress of ongoing grievances" are you referring to, specifically?
I have a guess for the answer to question #2. It is because of the Israelis isn't it. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the source of all Islamic discord.
I have an ongoing grievance that hasn't been address properly either. I believe the Jewish people have a right to the entire 2nd temple grounds and if they so choose, could either rebuild the temple again or make a museum of it. The Dome of the Rock was built in a direct, shameless provocation of Jewish people and Jewish faith. That is a specific and direct grievance that has never been redressed. That "mosque" was built by Caliph 'Umar 6 years after the death of Muhammad.
The Dome of the Rock should either be dismantled or moved off of the Temple grounds.
at February 9, 2006 11:06 PM
Malik - you tell me first - how many people in YOUR mind, would Muhammad have to kill or order killed, in order to for you to have some doubt about his character and thus whether he was who he claimed to be? One? Two? Three? 10? 50? How many people would someone have to kill by your definition to qualify as as a "mass murderer"? I'm curious.
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 11:15 PM
Caroline
Muslims are utter and complete slaves of Islam true. Like ants that have reached an evolutionary impasse they willingly forfiet their free will for enslavement that controls almost every aspect of their day.
This leads to belief that there is no absolute truth only the truthes dicated by their religion.
Thus they are ready to accept willy nilly all the absurdities preached to them by their Mullahs.
But even the dhimmies and slaves that lived within dar al islam were afflicted by this contagiousness.
Most willingly accepted their status of Half humans and some believed that resistance was futile since it would be met by unspeakable barbarity. Others perhaps taking the view that it is better to remain alive with a degree of protection through one's superior "protectors" status than suffer the anxiety of not knowing from one day or the other if one would be beaten or killed.
And again here we should note the relatinship between what i call the culture of honour and slavery.
The culture of Honour of the Mafiosi of Sicily demanded the enslavement of the local peasants who had to pay money and respect to the Local DON to receive eg, supplies of precious water.
Others received the Protection of the Mafia in return for the jizya and the expected respectfl adulations.
This in effect meant that a significant proportion of the population were in fact "dhimmies" to the Mafia who would regard them as "protected individuals" within their jurisdiction.
The parallels with Arabic islamic rule are very interesting i think.
at February 9, 2006 11:16 PM
Caroline,
You are the accuser and the burdon of proof resides with you. I don't believe the Holy Prophet was a mass murderer and you do. I'm asking you for your evidence of this so that I can be better informed.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:20 PM
chevalier de st george,
I'm sure you are quite proud of your post and are probably sitting there waiting for accolades. No doubt that somewhere in the vast cloud of the internet there is a resident in the back hills of Kentucky who found your post quite intelligent.
I'm convinced you enjoy hearing yourself speak.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:26 PM
Malik - for starters, did you bother to read Spencer's post at the start of this thread? Besides individual assassinations, I would call beheading 700 or so Jews, "mass murder". But, as you're a Muslim, maybe you don't consider killing Jews murder?
Have you ever personally ordered someone killed? Even one human being? Or watched literally hundreds of people have their heads cut off on your personal orders? No, I doubt it.
Have YOUR friends ever come back and told you how they murdered someone you didn't like and you said - hey. terrific. so be it. he deserved it? I doubt it. Which makes you a better human being than your own prophet.
Or are you suffering from a complete lack of imagination, not to mention basic human empathy, let alone the capacity for deductive logic?
Posted by: Caroline at February 9, 2006 11:43 PM
Salam Malik
Listen brother, dont bother with these people. Most of them are beyond help. They cant help but see the world through the ugly lenses of their stained stereotype glasses. Attacking and ridiculing Islam, that is rooting for a war that will never come, gives them a purpose and a indetity, however misguided.For the first time they feel themselves part of something, by definiton that is nowadays being western. How else to become something then by defining your enemies? Why should we talk to people, the so called westerners on this site, who consider our lives worthless, talking to us like monekys? It is not worth our times and our effort and it is ceartainly not worth getting our Prophet and religion insulted by half-literates. May God bless you anway for your efforts. Take care.
p.s
that jerk Robert Spencer canceled my first indentity, talk about freedom of speech. What a
hypocrite
at February 9, 2006 11:45 PM
Caroline,
Sure I read Spencer's post... and I have also read books from historians and scholars regarding Islam and the Holy Prophet. Spencer's post regarding the poets was incomplete and if you read my post you would have found the gaps closed. The Prophet did not order the death of those poets.
Can you please give me a reference to the 700 jews whose heads were cut off by the prophet?
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:50 PM
Wa Alaykum As-Salam Musa,
I appreciate your warning dear brother. I don't believe these people are unintelligent. I believe they are deeply passionate about their beliefs. We all are. Alhamdulillah. I also believe that many of them have not had the opportunity to speak rationally with a muslim but rather derive their knowledge of Islam from the nightly news or Spencer's post.
I hope that I can balance the information so that its not so one sided. I also hope that Spencer will not find my presence as threatening and cancel my privileges.
Jazakallah kul khairun akhi...
Posted by: Malik2day at February 9, 2006 11:56 PM
Malik,
When you are thinking of "Mass Murdering" you are most likely thinking on the grand scale of modern times. Maybe you would better understand this statement if you understood "in cold blood" and "without conscience"
The mass murdering and brutality is not only practiced and mentioned in your own holy sources, but still continues to this day, and mass murderers (the nearly 4,000 in the WTC were a mass were they not?) are inspired by the the teachings of this so-often called holy-man. Confucius, the Buddha, Lord Krishna, and Jesus (whom you call your own) cast a HUGE shadow over your prophet in words and deed.
I'm convinced you think you are scoring points in heaven in your own miniature form of Jihad...the second holiest Muslim cause. The fact you are asking for evidence only betrays the fact you are ignorant of your religion's texts, and thus easily manipulated.
And the back-hills of Kentucky are a million times better then the deserts of Saudi Arabia...home of the true lovers of the prophet.
at February 10, 2006 12:03 AM
Malik
your ad hominem attacks are indeed an indication of your intelligence.
perhaps on the subject of acceptance of GUILT you would be willing to divulge whether you feel any sense of guilt at the 4000+ islamic terrorism attacks throughout the world since 911.
or are you entrenched in your culture of Honor so deeply that you reject any accusations of terrorism by those of your religious beliefs?
at February 10, 2006 12:04 AM
Well, brother if I see it from that point of view it is ceartainly an honor that he canceled my identity. I believe there is a difference between passion and hate. Passion arises out of love, hate out of fear. If tomorrow a law in the senate was passed permitting average citizens to personally harm any Muslim or Arab they encounter then I would urge you to go into hiding.These dogs here dont just bark. They have got their knives sharpened. Most of them are ceartainly not from the good Christians described in the Koran, more from the vile bunch. As much as I deplore Muslim idioacrcy, like foolishly burning Embassies, I have never ecountered such hate. It has come to a point
where I believe only the law hold them back.
Salam
p.s
I am not Musa,
I am Karim
at February 10, 2006 12:09 AM
I swear, 99% of the postings by Muslims I read on this site give me the creeps. Something in their impenetrable, mindless, earnest, tortured prose just creeps me out. They're droids, pod people, satan's puppets -- some evil djinni has stolen their souls, and now they haunt the world like vampires, their dead eyes looking to drink the blood of the living. Yechh.
it is quiet clear that most of you just have new idea whats so ever about the last messanger from god muhummed , most of what u guys say bad about prophet muhummed peace on him is repeated by those who has a n agenda against islam with out knowledge of what his message is , he came with the same message that prophets befor him came with to belive and worship one almighty god ... moses in the bible ( detueronmy 6.4 ) says o .isreal THE LORD OUR LORD IS ONE LORD ..and jesus peace on him sais the first of all commandement is HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD ..MARK 12.29 and then muhummed peace on him came with the same message after 600 years after jesus peace on him .the message of prophet muhummed is AND YOUR GOD IS ONE GOD,THERE IS NO GOD BUT HE ..QURAN 2.163 . he and his followers went through hardshiphis, his campanions were slaughtred , his relatives boycotted him , his followers traveled to africa to escape from the killing in mecca because of their only beleive in one almighty god , no one equals to him ,and he does not begot and he is not begoten , his wealthy famaily that worship idols offered to him all the money and to be the king of mecca and he refused ,and he told them that if u put the moon in my right hand and the sun in my left to leave preaching for one almighty god ,i will not .. he was boycotted and his campanions for three years ,the ate the leaves of the trees from hunger and they stood up to their belife ,he had to migrate with the belivers from his town for his belife .. then when he got stronger he came back to mecca peacfully , no sigle blood been shattered , he forgave all those who were against him ,... he came as a messanger from god , a mercy from god to warn all humanity that there is only one god to worship since adam time ,and there is a life after and there will be a day of judgement for every thing u did in this life , so a man like him after all he did for us ,u want us to sit and watch ,, no way we will ... but all the violence we are againstPosted by: Zeno
at February 10, 2006 12:13 AM
ChinCheck,
I understand fully what "mass murder" means. I am asking you to give me one example of a person murdered by the Prophet.
Here's how I see this. In our great country, the U.S.A. our system of justice demands that the accuser provide evidence when accusing. Remember each is INNOCENT until proven guilty. I am simply following the justice of this great nation and applying our very own standards to ourselves.
That's it. So if you truly believe in the American way... you will supply evidence to support your conclusions, otherwise we are safe to assume your accusations are simply rhetoric. Which in turn deserves the same level of credibility as those who are rioting and reacting irrationally. Yo Comprende?
As for the 9/11 reference. Don't you think that the 2,500 innocent lives (may Allah's Mercy be with them) have been vindicated by the 100,000 plus lives (May Allah's Mercy be with them) lost in the Iraq "Shock & Awe"?
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:13 AM
Malik - you are as capable of googling "Banu Quarayzah" as I am. Why don't you ask me to prove that the Holocaust actually happened while you're at it?
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 12:14 AM
"I have never ecountered such hate. It has come to a point where I believe only the law hold them back".
Then I suggest you fly to Pakistan, Saudi, muslim majority country of your choice, announce you are a Christian, and rip up a copy of the Koran in full public view!
Can't you feel the LOVE already, Karim?????
Come on, I double dog dare ya!
Posted by: treehugger at February 10, 2006 12:18 AM
chevalier de st george,
Please explain to me why I would feel the slightest bit of guilt regarding 9/11? That's like telling every Catholic to feel guilty about Hitler's actions towards Jews.
I am strongly opposed to any violent action that causes the death of innocent people.
I don't bare the burdon of anyone's crimes.
Do you carry any guilt regarding the innocent lives lost in Afghanistan or Iraq by the "Coalition of the Willing". We are still waiting for those WMD to turn up.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:19 AM
Caroline
Malik proves my point.
his honor for Islam will disable him for feeling any shame for the endless lists of murders of his co religionists.
he will use every islamic ploy to deflect facts or truthes to maintain his stance that Islam cannot be faulted, especially by an infidel.
And were he facing a flock of guilt ridden infidels they would cede and admit that in fact it is all the fault of the west and its corrupt way of life.
The flushing down of Korans is to the westerners far more shameful to us than the beheading of a hundred christian schoolgirls by mahdi warriors surely is to him.
at February 10, 2006 12:19 AM
Zeno,
That's funny because I was thinking the exact same thing about you.
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:20 AM
Caroline,
Please share with me what you know about Banu Quarayzah.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:22 AM
What's the point in dialogue anyway?
We have two opposing civilizations, values, customs, beliefs.
Stay separate, stay happy.
at February 10, 2006 12:22 AM
Karim,
Your absurdity knows no bounds. YOU are the one acting a fool. We never called you worthless. We called your religious ideology worthless, which is so intertwined with your identity you do not know the difference.
Nothing will convince you or the people posting here of changing their stance. Concessions, possibly..but still doubtful.
No understanding will take place. You read the Quran and sunnah and found nothing wrong or against your conscience. Its a judgement call...if you find peace, fine. But submission does not blow over well in these parts.
We believe we are endowed with certain rights and so do you. No one is calling or hoping for war, but if a people are under attack, and their values mean anything, they must be defended..
"Give me liberty or give me death" means nothing to you because you are are servile slave who does not know what the Enlightenment brought.
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 10, 2006 12:23 AM
My point is simple,
Many of you claim to be civilized and compassionate, yet you have attacked me without even knowing me. That is hypocritical.
I'm curious how many of you are christians. You know I'm a muslim so don't be afraid to state your religious affiliation.
Especially you chevalier de st george.
Thank you!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:25 AM
Ok, but first I go to Texas or somewhere in the Bible
Belt and I will rip up a copy of the bible infront on
a congregation( probably including you)just ranting about what soulless monkeys Muslism are and to put one on top of it I will scream Allah at the top of my lungs .Would you dare me? I have lived in Saudi Arabia for fifteen years and I have seen those Americans and Europeans complaining about the ever so nice topic of how miserable Islam is,while happily rubbing their swollen satiated belly, fat on Arab and Muslim generosity and comfortable living. Who can compare the salary of a Muslim National with that of an American in Saudi Arabia? On another note, what kind of sick Fantasies do you have, wanting to go to Pakistan and rip up a Koran?
at February 10, 2006 12:28 AM
No Caroline, you have never called me worthless. I have only been called a pig, subhuman, infidel, soulless, trash, borg, feces and Mohammedan scum. That is all. And from all the Christian posters not one objected. Not one.
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:32 AM
Malik: "Don't you think that the 2,500 innocent lives (may Allah's Mercy be with them) have been vindicated by the 100,000 plus lives (May Allah's Mercy be with them) lost in the Iraq "Shock & Awe"?"
Malik - What 100,000 plus lives lost in Iraq's "shock and awe"? Don't bother to cite that by now now well debunked Lancet article. Prove that coalition troops have directly caused any more than 5,000 "innocent" Iraqi deaths.
And take careful note of that term "innocent" while you go about it...
at February 10, 2006 12:36 AM
Karim: "No Caroline, you have never called me worthless. I have only been called a pig, subhuman, infidel, soulless, trash, borg, feces and Mohammedan scum. That is all. And from all the Christian posters not one objected. Not one."
Why are you addressing that to me?
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 12:37 AM
These dogs here dont just bark. They have got their knives sharpened. - posted by Karim.
Yer darned right I've got my knife sharpened. It's a cheese knife. And it's about to subject some Arla havarti to the will of Shinoliite.
Insh'inoliite (Shinoliite willing).
Seriously, though. The only battle being waged here is an ideological one, because without once the jihadist ideology is debunked, there will be no need for violence in its name.
Muslims such as the many embroiled in cartoon rage react to criticism as if an act of violence has been perpetrated against them, but respond with the real thing. All the more reason the likes of Iran should never have nukes-- what would they consider as having been struck first?
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 10, 2006 12:38 AM
Caroline,
Do you believe the lives lost in Iraq are innocent lives? Or do you believe everyone in the Middle East is a "terrorist"?
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:38 AM
Waleikum Salam. They will never understand a basic thing. They really believe that we are under some kind of hypnosis, utterly without a conscience, like machines. Thats what a thousandth years brainwashing did to them. Most Muslim I have met object to the 11 September, all important Muslim clerics codemned it.
What is their excuse in not condeming their own crimes? I think I will go to sleep now. I have an exam in History tomorrow, Slavery in Antiquity.
Make a prayer for me.
Tasbach ala kheir achi
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:40 AM
Karim/etc.-
Haven't you guys/gals read the Koran and Hadiths?
Mohammad was a pedophile. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved to theft. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved of terrorizing people into accepting his "faith" at the point of the sword. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad approved of deceit to gain power. Is that a guy you want to follow?
He thought it was okay to force captive and slave women into "marrying" the murderers of their husbands, fathers and brothers. Is that a guy you want to follow?
Mohammad rewrote the Koran's verses*, himself. Is that a guy you want to trust in and follow?
(*The notoriously abrogated "Satanic Verses" which Mohammad gave out, first, to allow profitable polytheism in Mecca, but then "Allah" changed his mind, and said, through "Gibreel": "No, all other images of lesser 'Gods' and 'Goddesses' must go.", so Mohammad had a new 'revelation', a dubious change of mind that makes all of his other suras suspect.
I mean, if one sura can be "wrong", then the messenger himself is a bad vessel for the voice of "Allah" (or whatever it was he thought he was hearing).
Would you follow someone, nowadays, who came up to you and said what Mohammad claimed? A guy in your neighborhood who insisted that an angel was talking to him from God, and that you had to believe him, or die. (Or at least live in second-class serfdom, and pay a ransom to him to be spared death.)
If I now say:
"The angel Michael just spoke to me, and said that Mohammad got every verse in the Koran wrong BUT the 'Satanic Verse', and that EVERYTHING in the Qu'ran was a COMPLETE deception EXCEPT the allowance of polytheism, would you believe me?
Why not?
If you are gullible enough to believe the poorly-documented words (never written down by him, with some lost, or even eaten by a "domestic animal" before they got into the collected-after-his-death Koran) of an illiterate guy (who has been dead for over 1,000 years and who knew nothing of psychology, physics, human history, comparative religion, biology, philosophy or mythology), why not believe me?
I've got a better temperament, sense of humor, grasp of the conscious and unconscious mind , and won't kill you if you disagree with me.
You accept things too easily, too credulously, and lack the leaven of a little skepticism about the worth of dead men's words.
Just because it was passed down for a long time doesn't mean it has any more value than the theory of witches, spontaneous generation from rotting meat, or Mohammed's own 'science' that 'stars are for use as missiles to hit devils with'.
Grow a frontal lobe, and snap your fingrs in front of a mirror. It might break the theocratic hypnosis.
The world may be frightening without a cosmic crutch, but at least you strengthen the one thing worth having: a freed mind.
Posted by: profitsbeard at February 10, 2006 12:43 AM
I am sorry Caroline, that was ChinCheck.
Posted by: karim at February 10, 2006 12:44 AM
Many of you claim to be civilized and compassionate, yet you have attacked me without even knowing me. - posted by Malik
The Mideast sense of proportionality is in full display, as I started to discuss in my previous post. We have a saying in the West: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me [unless it's a fatwa]."
I'm all for civility; I think the cause is too urgent to give into the desire to take a cheap shot at someone, no matter how creative or inspired you feel at the moment. ;)
So you're right. No one should be attacking you ad hominem. But your ideology is a threat to us, and therefore fair game to be dissected and disputed.
And while you're asking people about their religion, I'm Catholic. And I'd be happy to tell you all that my faith means to me.
Posted by: Shinoliite at February 10, 2006 12:47 AM
You may be right profitsbeard, he was just man and now he is dead. But that is all he ever claimed to be. But the one miracle he left is the Koran. I suppose you never heard the rescitation of the Koran to know how hauntigly beautifull that is?
Good night
p.s
Please dont start with the mysterious
"kill all infidels" verse.Generations of
Christians have searched.
at February 10, 2006 12:50 AM
To all here:
As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice.
There is NO God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger and Servant, Fear the day of Recompense when every soul shall taste what he has earned.
Oh Allah bear witness that I have conveyed your message, if it is Your Will they will listen and be saved. I pray that You will make their children and their children's children muslim. Ameen!!!
Posted by: Malik2day at February 10, 2006 12:50 AM
Karim:
Your point on how you've been described in various unpleasant terms is well taken, but is also instructive on another level. You are evidently aware enough to put Christians to shame for uncharitable behavior and to point out that their behavior is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus. Very good. Then it is a good thing for Christians to act like Christians, yes?
Now please tell us (Malik2day and Musa, you can help as well), if our standards are to be as high as those set be Jesus, who cared for the truth and not for public opinion, Why should Christians pay any attention or honor to Mohammed, who cared for public opinion, the acquisition of wealth and women?
The Bible and Qur'an were each from their beginnings very different books, just as Jesus and Mohammed had fundamentally different, antithetical messages. "By their fruits shall you know them."
Posted by: Chatillon at February 10, 2006 12:55 AM
Malik: "Do you believe the lives lost in Iraq are innocent lives?"
Yes, I think the bulk of iraqis killed have been innocent. But for what it's worth to you, I think Muslims have killed BY FAR more Iraqis than the coalition troops have. But apparently Muslims couldn't give a goddamn how many Muslims other Muslims kill. You couldn't care less. Muslims are the ones egging on other Muslims to kill fellow Muslims in the name of "resistance". It's quite obvious that Muslims ONLY feel outrage when "infidels" cause the death of Muslims.
Do you believe that the Banu Quarayzah were innocent?
And whatever your answer to that, you're an idiot if you are incapable of discerning that noone remotely imagines that George Bush is the final prophet of God - very very far from it - the very idea is a joke - while you think Muhammad was. Big effing difference wouldn't you say?
I have yet to see one Muslim on this forum ADMIT that Muhammad had people killed (even you insist on playing your ridiculous games) and then EXPLAIN how they could consider a murderer the most perfect man and the final prophet of God's word.
at February 10, 2006 1:00 AM
Karim: "As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice."
And as human beings our obligation is to tell the truth about your prophet and your religion, even if it personally hurts your feelings. We have an obligation to inform infidels in order to protect their lives and the lives of their children from your incredibly dangerous delusions.
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 1:06 AM
The natives are restless tonight. The Night of the Trolls. Sounds like a good title for a horror movie. Dont feed the trolls after midnight. Actually watching trolls paint themselves into a corner and try to wiggle out is quite entertaining.
Malik, Karim and Musa. I'm pretty sure Karim is Larry, and Musa's got to be Curly. I'm not so sure about Malik...he could be Shemp, but he could just as easilly be Harpo Marx.
at February 10, 2006 1:14 AM
Malik,
We are not in a courtroom and nothing is on trial. And let's not speak of American standards of justice, let's speak of Islamic standards of justice..where hands are cut off, adulterers stoned, and apostates killed all because your holy man so ordained. I hate all things cruel and inhumane..and if Islam falls in the category then so be it.
I mean, Islamic justice is what counts in the long run right? They practice Sharia in Saudi Arabia, perhaps you'd like to spend some time over there with your brothers in faith.
Posted by: ChinCheck at February 10, 2006 1:40 AM
Hi Guys,
I am from India orginally and we have suffered a lot because of Islamic terrorism for last 3 decades. Its good that the west is waking up to these fanatics. I live in west and value the culture traditions and values here. I truly think that west is a true secular democracy which these muslims can never witness in their own countries. If they dont like western values, freedom of speech, I dont think so that any western went to invite them to come to their country. They came by choice and can leave by choice. If they think that ALLAH is so fragile that it can be insulted by a cartoon, Muslims, please adopt Jewism, Christianity or Hinduism. You might learn to be tolerant. If god wanted us to pray for him 5 times a day, why did he do the effort of sending us on earth, he should have preserved us there to pray 5 times a day.
Jokes apart, Muslims please grow up stop being assholes. The problem with you guys is that 90% plus of Muslims support terrorism or allied activities on name of religion. You hve lost rationality. A Muslim killing 100 muslim is ok, one non muslim fighting that muslim to save next 100, would be fought by the same 100 muslims on the name of God. You guys are drunk from the day one you come into existence.
Well, you talk about discrimination in western countries, haha tell me one true muslim democracy.. I will be surprised if it works for long. There are terror training camps and Madrasas(school of religion, which only teahes quran till kids are 18) in pakistan and afganistan. These guys are trained to hate any other religion.
Question for Muslims, which religion you dont have a problem with?
Christianity... you have
Jew....... you have
Hindu..... you have
Budhism.... you have
well you have problem within yourselves... shia and suni ..dont you. You are aggressive and the only thing you know is to fight.
Work and make something better of your lives and stop being jealous.
Final lesson for everyone else in the world, leave Muslims alone.... they are not worth wasting the time...
Posted by: Aman at February 10, 2006 1:51 AM
karim-
I've heard the Koran recited. It is melodious.
But then so is Dante's "Inferno" in the original Italian.
And so is a lot of glossolalia.
Just because something pleases the ear doesn't mean it isn't squalid nonsense.
"Beware the jabberwock, my son,
The jaws that bite the claws that catch,
Beware the jub-jub tree, and shun
The frumniuous bandersnatch."
That rhymes, too.
Sense requires a little more than mellifluous mermerism.
Belief, a HELL of a lot more.
I'll take a clumsier sounding line like:
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Over:
"Waal aadiYAATI DAB-han
faal mooriYAATI KAD-han
faal mogheeRAATI SUB-han
fa atharna beehee NAK-an
fa wasatna beehee JAM-an!"
Hell, I'll take:
"Gnothi seaton." (Know thyself) over the whole ululating Koran.
(And I'll throw in a "Panta Rhea" for free.)
at February 10, 2006 3:02 AM
I am baffled by the stupidity on display by the Mohammedan posters above. A 'Malik' engages in Da'wa, like OBL's call to Islam: "
"As a muslim my obligation is to spread the message... that's it. Accept it or not it is your choice...." (or else...!)
A lot of red herrings, like:.."The Prophet did not order the death of those poets.Can you please give me a reference to the 700 jews whose heads were cut off by the prophet?"
Now we know for a fact, that 70 % of Mohammedans in this world are illiterate, stupid and poor. One homo Islamicus above claims that the infidel posters here are 'illiterate' but he wants to see 'proof' that the 'prophet' who never propecied anything whatsoever, killed and tortured and raped, as if he never read the Koran. Perhaps he is another one of those who memorized it in Arabic and doesn't know the meaning of the 164 Jihad verses...
Then, (is it the same poster or another one?), claims we are using 'stereotypes' and 'how could we possibly judge him since we don't know him...', well, we have seen the same claptrap here many times before by other trolls, trying to defend the indefensible:
How can you, Mr. homo Islamicus, follow a 7th century bandit, arsonist, slave-trader, rapist and child molester, how can you believe that an arch-criminal is uswa-hasana, al insan al kamil?
Posted by: sheik yer'mami
at February 10, 2006 3:58 AM
sheik is right. With a few exceptions, most of the posters here who present themselves as Muslims have followed the same tired arguments, issued the same insults against us, and have engaged in the same tactics of evasion and obfuscation.
Not one Muslim has ever provided any evidence that Mohammad was a prophet of God. Why do they believe he was a prophet? They say "We know because Mohammad said so," or "Over a billion people believe it," or "We have the Qur'an as "proof"."
*Quran is not proof of anything, but it falsifies itself (e.g., Allah says sperm originates in a man's back) http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
*Over a billion people believe in Santa Claus or some other mythical character. So what? Argument from popularity is a fallacy. Muslims use this to try and impress people, because they don't have legitimate arguments.
*Mohammad said all kinds of crazy things, many of which no sane, rational person would believe. He also said terribly offensive things, like this:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
-------------------------------------------------
From Aman: "Final lesson for everyone else in the world, leave Muslims alone.... they are not worth wasting the time..."
Muslims with their endless childish tantrums and endless concerns about their self-image, unfortunately, won't leave us alone. This entire controversy over the cartoons is due to a huge number of Muslims having a coordinated narcissistic hissy fit. If anyone hurts their ego-pride, they'll kill for it and claim they are defending their "honour." They are trying to impose their 7th century imperialism and supremacism, following the example of Mohammad. That cannot stand it that non-Muslims exist. They cannot stand it that non-Muslims do not follow Islamic law.
No one in the world today is safe to criticize Islam freely without receiving death threats. This is the same as during Mohammad's reign of terror.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
Anyone who wants to see how Mohammad dealt with critics, go to these links...see
http://www.answering-islam.org/Muhammad/Enemies/index.html ,
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/free_speech.htm ,
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/dead_poets.htm .
Anyone who wants to see how Mohammad mass-murdered Jews, go to these links
Mohammad’s jihad attacks/massacres against Jewish Tribes:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/jews.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_qaynuqa.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_nadir.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_quraiza.htm
at February 10, 2006 4:50 AM
I must say most of people here are blinded with hate...and its sad.
well going back to the topic "What would Mohammad do"
"It was by the mercy of Allah that you were gentle with them (O, Mohammad) for if you had been harsh and hard of heart they would of dispersed from around you. So pardon them and pray forgiveness for them and consult with them in the affair" (Quran 3:159).
This verse from the Holy Quran indicates that Prophet Mohammad's (sas) attitude was a factor in attracting people to Islam. Any leader who wants to summon people to God should also be gentle and lenient in his personal attitude.
The importance of this verse is that one should be lenient as an individual, but not in principles.
The Holy Prophet (sas) was very firm when it came to principles and showed no flexibility or softness. If some one insulted him, he would forgive them kindly, because that was something related to himself. But if anyone violated Islamic laws and rulings, the Holy Prophet would treat them with severity and justice.
Once someone stopped the Holy Prophet (sas) and claimed that the prophet owed him some money and that he would not let him go unless he received the amount immediately. The Holy Prophet said: "I don't owe anything, but even if I do, let me go home to get you your money". The man said that he would not let the Prophet take another step. Ignoring how gently the Prophet (sas) had
behaved, the man acted fiercely and rudely, to the point that he took the Holy Prophets gown off and wrapped it around his neck and pulled it, until it became bruised.
The Holy Prophet (sas) had been on his way to the Mosque and when people noticed that he was late, they went in search of him and found a Jew obstructing in the way. At that point the Muslims wanted to slap and punish this rude fellow, but the Holy Prophet (sas) said: "No, you people don't interfere, I know what to do with my friend". Observing this humble attitude and leniency, the Jew embraced Islam right there and said: "You are so powerful yet you are so lenient, and this is not possible for an ordinary man. I bear witness there is no God except Allah and that you Mohammad are the messenger of Allah."
When the Holy Prophet (sas) entered Mecca after the city had been conquered, a woman from amongst the wealthy Quraish aristocrats had stolen something important and and according to Islamic rules, her hand had to be cut off. The women was a popular influential figure of Quraish, and her relatives tried to save her by persuading the Prophet not to go ahead with the ruling because the
women was the daughter of such a wealthy and upperclass family and if her hand was to be cut off the whole family would be disgraced.
The Prophet said: "Impossible, I cannot suspend the ruling. If this women was not a member of the aristocracy (rich & famous) you would all agree that she must be punished, but now you say she should not be punished because she would be disgraced. How can I forgive her? Never. The laws of Allah will never be suspended and no excuses will be accepted".
From the two incidents we see that the Holy Prophet (sas) never compromised in matters regarding principles, but when his own interests were in question, he was extremely lenient and generous. Some of the reasons behind the progress of Islam were because of his excellent conduct, attitude and characteristics displayed by the Prophet (sas) and the way he lived.
His great role as a Prophet, Messenger, guide, leader and all the great characteristics of different personalities combined into one man excelled him over all other men in history, and also because of the Holy Quran, which was a miracle given to the Holy Prophet (sas) from Allah. The unique beauty, depth, elegance and attraction of the Holy Quran left a great impact in the spread of Islam.
This is why Allah mentions in the Holy Quran in regards to the greatness of the Holy Prophet.
(Quran 68:4) "And surely you are of an exalted character".
Thus a man who talks or preaches from his heart, will win the hearts of others, and whoever talks and preaches from his mouth, his words will not penetrate hearts. In the messages delivered by men of God, this point is clearly observed but not in the messages of other leaders of the world.
The Holy Prophet Mohammad (sas) transformed the world from it's ignorance and idol worship to that of monotheism and salvation. He carried out the most remarkable tasks under unbelievable hardships but always maintained his kindness, generosity and forgiveness, which truly characterises the messenger of God. In him the highest perfections were assembled. He was in reality that
perfect infallible man before whom the angels were ordered to prostrate. That is why Allah and his angels praise and bless him and those who are faithful are commanded to also praise and bless him and are required to learn, follow and benefit from the life and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad.
Posted by: Fedder at February 10, 2006 4:58 AM
...and I also recommend another site run by ex-Muslims. It is an excellent site.
Main site: http://www.islam-watch.org/
Article on Mohammad, and why he is not worthy of respect.
http://www.islam-watch.org/MA_Khan/ProphetCartoons.htm
That's right, I say to Muslims: Respect must be earned. Nobody respects a child who throws temper tantrums and then cries for sympathy. And nobody should respect the killer, rapist, slave-owner, terrorist, hate-monger Mohammad.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 10, 2006 5:05 AM
Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), who was sent to mankind to teach them good moral conduct, learned to control his anger toward the Unbelievers and teach them appropriate expressions. He used to speak against being angry. We think that we have it tough, when one of his days was probably tougher than the whole of our lifetimes! When we look at his life, our own difficulties seem so pathetic in comparison. Imagine spending 13 years completely devoting his life spreading the word of Islam and suffering hardship. This was a man who had the burden of the whole of mankind's future on his shoulder. Yet he had the tolerance and self-discipline to be able to forgive those around him who were themselves so ignorant.
The best example of this was when the Prophet (saw) went to a place called Ta'if. This was at the time when the followers of Islam were at their weakest and the Prophet himself had suffered the loss of both his wife Khadijah (May Allah be pleased with her) and his uncle Abu Talib. He went to this town in the hope that they would listen to what he had to say. Instead he was insulted and chased out of the town by the children who threw stones at him till (it was described) the blood flowed from his body to his feet making his sandals sticky with his own blood. The Prophet was so depressed that he prayed to Allah, who then sent down the Angel of the mountains who asked for the Prophet's permission to fold the mountains together and crush to death all those that lived there. But what was the prophet's reply? "Yes, kill them all as they did not listen to me"? No, off course not! His answer was "No, I hope Allah will bring from them people who will worship Allah alone, associating none with Him."
This was the example of the Prophet, even though he felt bitterness and was very angry with them, he had the discipline and control to not let his emotions control his actions and he forgave them realizing that they were merely misguided.
One companion asked him, Give me some advice by virtue of which I hope for good in the life hereafter, and he said, "Don't be angry." Another person asked, what will save me from the wrath of God, and he said, "Do not express your anger." A third person asked three times, 0 Messenger of Allah, give me an order to do a short good deed, and he said, "Don't be angry." Once he asked a question of his companion, "Who among you do you consider a strong man?" They said, the one who can defeat so-and-so wrestler in a fight, and he said, that is not so. The one who is strong is the one who can control himself at the time of anger. He also said that anger is like fire, which destroys you from within, and it can also lead you to the fire of hell by your own expressions of anger unjustly.
Posted by: Fedder at February 10, 2006 5:12 AM
Why the hell are the majority of you so xenophobic? You're acting like we in the West have to kill all the Muslims before we can live in peace (maybe no one explicated this specifically but that seems to be the pervasive if unspoken sentiment). You can't just massacre 1.3+ billion people you morons!
Regardless of whether Mohammad was a murdering tyrant or not, if a large portion of his followers are peaceful, than we should have no problems with them. Obviously there's also a large portion of his followers that are fascists and/or murderers (or harbor murderous intentions), and they are at whom you should be pointing your crosshairs.
Despite your claims to the contrary, some of the Muslims on this board are acting far more rational than a majority of you. So try to tone down the mob psychology and the xenophobia...seriously, you're starting to sound like the radical Clerics. And please remember, Christianity (as I understand is the religion of several of the more radical posters here) has quite a bloody history in and of itself (Salem Witch Trials and the Inquisitions immediately come to mind), so please step down from your high horses. And with all the talk about the way that Islam is attempting to impose its laws on non-Muslim Westerners, remember that Christians do the same exact thing in America (anti-gay marriage laws, attempts at institutionalizing the teachings of creationism via the intelligent design agenda).
And before you get your fingers all fired up - no, I'm not a multiculturalist, I'm only trying to put things into perspective. I completely support the Danes and I'm definitely on your side (although I don't hate Muslims in general).
I'm an atheist and personally I think all religion is irrational, although perhaps some religions are more irrational than others.
Cheers,
Nate
at February 10, 2006 5:18 AM
The actions of the founder of Islam speak louder than his words. His fruits include allowing his disciples to rape, enslave, mutilate and kill--and call that justice and legitimate. His followers today continue his example of death and destruction.
The Person who angels fall prostrate to is Jesus, who alone by word and example was loving, kind, forgiving, compassion and perfect in every way. Jesus healed a blind man...Mohammad ordered one killed. Jesus healed an older woman with a fever. Mohammad had an older woman tied between camels and tore her apart. Jesus blessed the little children. Mohammad had sex with one. Jesus restored a man's hand...and as you say, Mohammad ordered a woman's hand to be cut off and for other people's limbs to be severed. Jesus never raped a woman. Mohammad took a women whose husband was killed by his war and then raped her the same day her husband was murdered, and he told his men they could rape women who were taken in battle and make them pregnant..forcing them to carry the children of their rapists...the followers of Mohammad. Jesus raised people from the dead and never killed anyone. Mohammad killed and had people killed.
It is truly amazing to hear all these Muslims committing acts of violence yelling that the founder of Islam needs their blood and their lives to redeem him. But, Jesus used His own blood to redeem us. And there is nothing I have to work around or explain about or apologize about Jesus my King, because He is the truly noble One unlike the founder of Islam. It is too late for Mohammad to be redeemed, but it is not too late for you, Fedder.
Posted by: Abby at February 10, 2006 5:41 AM
Isn't it amazing that millions of lemmings come unglued over the insulting of the prophet of a Satanic "god" while they prove to us everyday that what we understand about their so called religion makes us correct? What is heartbreaking to me is that these same people would kill, maim, torture, threaten, steal, lie, terrorize and rape to defend the honor of their Satanic "god", while the True God of peace and love is left by the wayside, cast aside and forgotten.
Let's compare and contrast. Jesus Christ was born into poverty. He was submissive and obedient to his earthly parents, even though He is and always was, God. He honored His mother and performed His first miracle at the wedding at Cana because she asked him to. Over and over again during the three short years of his public life he healed lame beggars, caused the blind to see, raised several people from the dead, including His good friend Lazarus, forgave Mary Magdalene of her adultery and said that he who had no sin should cast the first stone against her, before he let her go and admonished her to sin no more. Jesus taught the people how to really live, how they could thrive by loving their neighbor, turning the other cheek, feeding and clothing those less fortunate, visiting the sick and the imprisoned and basically loving ones neighbor as one self. When we think of Jesus the words, forgiveness, mercy, compassion, charity and love all come to mind. Not that Jesus couldn't get mad. He rightfully threw the money changers out of the place of worship, told the Pharisees and Sadducees that they were a bunch of vipers and told Peter to get thee behind me, Satan, when St. Peter tried to stand in the way of Christ's work.
Jesus never did anything that wasn't pro-survival and he gave us the most important gift of all, freewill to decide for ourselves how we want to live. We can choose any path we'd like and indeed, there are rewards and consequences for each. But the gift is the choice.
In contrast we see and hear the consequences of Islam and they have been weighed in the scales of justice and found wanting.
Islam coerces, and Islam lies. Islam says there is no coercion regarding religion, but then it demands that apostates from Islam be killed. Huh?
Islam demands "purity" and "chastity" among it's members, even going so far as to stone to death women who commit adultery and murdering, in the name of honor, women who've been raped. But then it gets around adultery, prostitution and rape with very convenient conventions. If a Muslim man wants to have sex with another woman, he just marries her and adds to the family, with no regard for the first, true wife's feelings. And if she doesn't like it he can starve her to death if she pitches a fit. If a Muslim man is away on business or going to school or, I guess, if he just feels like it he can temporarily "marry" (screw) any other woman he chooses and he gives her money for it. (In America we call that "prostitution".) And rape is one of Islams most useful tools in demoralizing conquered peoples.
Islam uses terror to get it's point across, which is, become Muslim or die.
http://www.persecutionblog.com/2005/11/more_beheading.html
Need I say more?
While Islam appears to have unlimited power because it is fueled by an angry anti-god that can't get over how little it matters, Jesus Christ is the One with the real power. He was powerful enough to raise himself from the dead, but then, God can do anything. We can't even imagine all the things He can do.
What did Mohammad do? He convinced a bunch of backward people, who were oppressed by their boring and poverty stricken lives and ripe to become oppressors, that they could take over other peoples lands and have as much sex as they wanted if they were willing to terrorize and annihilate people to force them to join them. Maybe Mohammad was really just channeling Al Capone
I believe Islam is the wake up call to all Christians, atheists and whoever that have decided to go there own way and not pay any respect to the God who made us.
We live in a world that has a spiritual side to it. There can be no vacuum. If we reject any reference or reverence to God, what will fill that void and take it's place. Islam? God forbid.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 10, 2006 6:04 AM
Nate,
"Why the hell are the majority of you so xenophobic? You're acting like we in the West have to kill all the Muslims before we can live in peace (maybe no one explicated this specifically but that seems to be the pervasive if unspoken sentiment)."
Not stated, but you'll assume it won't you? There are some bellicose remarks here, from some posters. However, you appear to be assuming that any criticism of Islam equals an attack on Muslims personally. Not so. Not everyone observes precise language, but most are criticizing Islamists, not all 100% of Muslims. I can't speak for everyone here, but most of us are concerned about the beliefs and behaviours of Muslims, especially the Islamists. Beliefs and behaviours can be challenged in a free society. A huge number of Muslims are acting like spoiled brats, and we should not indulge this behaviour further through self-censorship. I will not submit to Islamic blasphemy law just because Muslims threaten my life and that of my family. Christians aren't threatening to kill people who caricature Jesus. Nor will I submit to the politically-correct, who think that we should "respect" Muslims' imperialistic supremacist behaviour under the guise of "sensitivity." You want Muslim sensitivity? Here it is, here's what the learned Muslim-Islamist spokesmen are hiding when they tell us to be more sensitive:
The Koran says that disbelievers (non-Muslims): are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (Christians and/or Jews are) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); (idolaters are) unclean (9:28); “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45, 2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); they have no good in them (8:23); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah (25:55); “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); disgraced lives (22:9); hypocrites (4:61); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); have no sense (5:103); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60); liars/they lie (2:10, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11) “losers” (7:179); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19), in false pride and schism (38:2), the lowest of the low (95:4-6)
This refers to all non-Muslims, for all time, as long as they are non-Muslims. In contrast the cartoons, for example, were about Islamists who make the association between Mohammad and terrorism, misogyny, and the harsh restrictions on free expression.
"You can't just massacre 1.3+ billion people you morons!"
Who says that? Cite the poster who said it and report him to Robert using the comments window on the main page.
We need more, not less, criticism of Islam and Islamists. Christianity and Judaism have for the most part gone through this process of secularization. Islam has not. Muslims must be held legally and morally responsible for their behaviours, just like everyone else is. No special immunities from criticism--which is what the Islamists are demanding. We need to stop making excuses for them. They should not be given untouchable status--a status which no one else has.
Your assumption that most Muslims are inherently peaceful adopts the assumption of the moderate Muslim. This has been discussed many times at this site. I do not deny that they exist, but this is a very problematic concept. How does one define "moderate"? Moderate with respect to what? World-wide cartoon rage?
Posted by: Archimedes at February 10, 2006 6:05 AM
Oops! Try this:
http://www.persecutionblog.com/2005/11/more_beheading_.html
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 10, 2006 6:08 AM
Nate Prophet writes: Regardless of whether Mohammad was a murdering tyrant or not, if a large portion of his followers are peaceful, than we should have no problems with them. Obviously there's also a large portion of his followers that are fascists and/or murderers (or harbor murderous intentions), and they are at whom you should be pointing your crosshairs.
The problem I see is that the large portion of his (i.e. Mohammad's) followers who are supposedly peaceful seem to get worked up to murderous rage by even the slightest slight to Islam (such as the cartoons) and yet are completely unmoved by their own fellow jehadists who murder, kill and maim almost on a daily basis.
Posted by: Razdan at February 10, 2006 6:11 AM
Hello all Assama-laikum to one & all.
As an Ahmadi I tend to focus more on Muhammed's delivery of earlier (more peaceful Surahs). Why they were somewhat "superceded" later on particularly when most Mericful Allah (swt) showered the gifts and glories of success on Muhd (pbuh) is something that I am not clear on.
What I am clear on is that SOME aspects of the message I am not happy with (like the promise of 72 virgins after Shahadda). Seems like clever monuevering on somebody's part.
I also am not happy with Muhd(pbuh) consummating marriage with Aiesha at the age of 9. This particular aspect I have great difficulty with ....but it is there in the Hadith.
Could this act *really* have been ordained by Allah....I mean she wouldn't have even been developed properly yet, being a woman this is very hard for me.
Having said that what bothers me even more is how we muslims don't want to discuss it....and therfore the infidel wins handsdown...they call us ignorant of our own religion.
"It was Allah ordained, she was 14 not 9, girls developed quicker at that time...Allah T'alah knows best (a catch-all statement when there are no logical answers), etc" is what I am told....but I am unclear on this.
It is this lack of drive on clearing things up on our part...to question (little bits only) that have held us muslims back for millenia.
I AM muslim...there are still enough aspects of Islam and Muhd's message that I agree with, together with the discipline and focus of his message. I enjoy praying and hearing the Koran being read...it automatically sets me tooing and frowing.
Do we have to believe every aspect of message, mimic every behaviour to be a muslim....definitely not in my opinion.
The cartoon depicition was a dispicable act...(perhaps there is something in the Qoaran about the country of Denmark) but it has happened now....the question is "is the muslim strong enough in *character* to come to terms with it?
Sure we can lash out...but IMHO this is not character building...instead it reinforces the message hidden within the cartoons (perhaps that's why we get so annoyed).
The message is from Allah (swt), it is Allah's message NOT Muhammed's. If you believe that (like I do.. for most of it) what's the problem.
Lets move on, there are things to be done, muslims to be educated...and it is this...."you don't have to believe everything stated by the scholars. There is enough message there for muslims to still believe".
I mean you can't mess with that power...It is Allah talking to you...all will be cleared with the appearance with the Caliphate...perhaps he will help clear things that I have started to doubt.
Muhd was a genius....way ahead of his time....his message has been rendered time immorial, all will be disciples of Allah within 100 years.
at February 10, 2006 6:49 AM
What we need is one or two links to brief articles summmarizing the usual Muslim and PC attacks against us. That way there is no need to go through the same arguments every time. We just need to post the link, because all of the important debates have already been sufficiently solved in our favour.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 10, 2006 6:52 AM
Re: Archimedes
Trust me, you don't need to convince me that there is a problem with Islam. Notice in my post I didn't even say that most Muslims are peaceful. I said that there is a large portion of peaceful Muslims, whom I think deserve consideration (but not any special entitlement to protection from critique).
"You can't just massacre 1.3+ billion people you morons!"
In hindsight, this was probably a stupid accusation. However, it was in response to the idea that all Muslims are to blame for terrorism, and that they should all repent...If this is true, like the Anti-Muslim extremists are implying, then all Muslims are our enemies, and we must either fight them or deconvert them. Not only does this extremism reek of irony, but it's just as genocidal as the extremism of the likes of Ahmadinejad and his cohorts, and I think we should be very careful not to become like them. We're supposed to be civilized, remember?
That being said, I will repeat myself:
"I completely support the Danes and I'm definitely on your side."
I do not think that all Muslims are inherently peaceful by any means.
You seem to be much more reserved and rational than the majority of the frequenters on this forum, and I want to say that my comments were definitely not directed at you.
Re: Razdan
I agree that there is a huge problem here. But we must still consider the tempered response of many of the Muslims in America and abroad. Maybe if the cartoons had been posted by major publications here then we would be seeing more protests, but I'm not so sure. The majority of the Muslims who are protesting are in countries that have not published the cartoons. And from that we can assume that these protesters do not represent all or even of the Muslims in the West, in whose countries the cartoons were published, and we didn't see the violent protests. We are also hearing condemnations of the violence by some Muslim Clerics, and while they should be condemning the irrationality of the general Muslim response, it is still an indication that they do not want to be associated with the extremists.
On another note, I'm a bit worried about the upcoming mass protest in London. Even if it turns out to be completely peaceful, it still might pressure certain morons to legislate some sort of imbecilic imposition on press freedoms. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
I've gotta pass out now though. Keep fighting the good fight, I'm glad to see that there's many people around the globe who are as annoyed and outraged by these anti-Western tantrums as I am.
Cheers,
Nate
at February 10, 2006 7:02 AM
Jesus Christ overcame the world and Allah (Satan) when He rose from the dead on the third day. Now that's power. Allah (Satan) was completely vanquished by Him.
Please refer to Mel Gibson's "The Passion of The Christ". There is a great scene at the end where Allah (Satan) screams in anguish as the camera does a clever pull back, aerial view, after he realizes that Jesus' death and resurrection have vanquised him.
All Muslims will be disciples of Jesus within 100 years.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 10, 2006 7:12 AM
jesus peace on him is innocent from your acts and belives ,jesus peace on him never claimed that he was a god , jesus peace on him said the first of all commandments . HEAR OH ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD..MARK 12.29 .. u christians are missguided , the trinity u worship never been taught by jesus peace on him , it was man made in year 325.. ANY BODY HOME ..this means this trinity doctrine was man made after 325 years of jesus peace on him was raised to heaven .... the quran puts this straight .... WE WITTNESS THAT MUHUMMED IS THE LAST PROPHET OF GOD AND GOD OUR LORD IS ONE GOD AND JESUS IS THE WORD AND PROPHET OF GOD
Posted by: musa at February 10, 2006 7:34 AM
"...Why the hell are the majority of you so xenophobic? You're acting like we in the West have to kill all the Muslims before we can live in peace (maybe no one explicated this specifically but that seems to be the pervasive if unspoken sentiment). You can't just massacre 1.3+ billion people you morons!
Regardless of whether Mohammad was a murdering tyrant or not, if a large portion of his followers are peaceful, than we should have no problems with them..."
From a homo islamicus above, pretending to be an 'atheist:'
We don't need to sort them out, 'Allah' can do that!
We don't need to 'massacre 1.3 billions you morons',
we just need to intern and to deport 25 million infil-traitors from Europe, 3 million in the US and 320 000 from Australia. A question of resolve and determination, thats all. It can be done!
The rest is logistics.
at February 10, 2006 7:44 AM
Musa what are you talking about?Hear oh Israel(not Isreal altough its real for sure)THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD ,those sacred words have nothing to do with Islam or Mohammad.Copying other religion words and make it your own is a Muslim practice!!2000 years before Mohammad those words was carved in stone,nothing to do with your Allah (a fake make belive "GOD" or anything else.Anyway some facts about your beloved sex and killing hungry "Prophet".
1.The Arabs claim to be Ishmael offsprings by him beeing their forefather.Abraham had 2 sons Itchak by Sara his LEGITIMATE wife and Ishmael by his slave woman .
2.By those day standards Hagar whored with Abraham and Ishmael was a ILEGITIMATE son(a bastard)or son of a whore!!!
Now cause all the arabs claim being from Ishmael they are bastards by birth and thats including Muhammad!!Nothing new under the sun!!!
Muhammad was a good merchant,and a clever manipulator,he married Hadija a welty but old woman,he was after her money nothing else,so he was a gold digger.When he started to invent the new faith the first thing he promised to muslimms was 4 wifes and countless concubines,but for himself out of mercy he married 9:::)))
He spent 25 year dreaming in the cave and claim Allah send him the qouran with Gabriel,in his dreams:::))So he waked up and dictated it to his companions,he was ILITERATE ,and those companions where jews and christians.So the entire Qouran is on the foundation of the Old and New Testament,the rest is garbage invented .
Mohammad dreamed one nigth that he flyed to Jerusalem on a winged horse AL Buraq and now the Muslims claim Jerusale is holy for them and belongs to them.Another story concocted by a Pshycophat and his beliwers.
80 years after his death a converted Jew Ibn Itchak wrote the first copy of the Qouran:::)))The Qouran by a Jew not a muslim,because most of them are Ilitarate to this days.And Fanatics.
You and the Muslims have nothing to be proud of,only shame
And Israel means he who strugled with God.
Posted by: Thomas at February 10, 2006 8:35 AM
Caroline~ my apologies,I thought you were talking to someone else who posted. Now that I see what these Idiots are saying...
And isn't it funny? The more we gain the world's attention, the more the nuts come out of the woodwork. They have realized they once again stepped well over the line of their plans, and now must make every effort to convince the hundreds of thousands of silent readers here, that they are Not what they daily prove themselves to be...
Posted by: Gary at February 10, 2006 8:40 AM
Musa: WE WITTNESS THAT MUHUMMED IS THE LAST PROPHET OF GOD AND GOD OUR LORD IS ONE GOD AND JESUS IS THE WORD AND PROPHET OF GOD.
Explain 'Jesus is the Word...'
Posted by: duh_swami at February 10, 2006 9:06 AM
A good article about the Muslim dilemma.
The confounding and conflicting reports surrounding the Muhammad 'toons are still pouring in. The fast breaking news – cartoon authenticity, religious blasphemy, riots and deaths – is providing a window into the soul of the Muslim community. This time, however, the events can't be pinned on a few Islamic fanatics. The magnitude and scope of Muslim reaction is revealing the hostile mindset of the broad Muslim world. It ought to evoke both pity and caution.
Muslims worship the god Allah; I worship God Who became Man, Jesus Christ. I would choose to die rather than deny Christ is God. Millions of other Christians share the same conviction. When we see images of Jesus submerged in urine, depictions of Him as a sodomite, or movies portraying Him as an adulterer, we're insulted, grieved and angered – but we don't set out to kill the culprits responsible. At least not en masse.
But provoked Muslims are a different story. The demeaning Danish cartoons have ignited mass rage in the Islamic world. We've bewilderedly witnessed the demand for blood, the burning of buildings, threatenings and death. If one compares the Christian community's restrained response to the defamation of Christ with the murderous Muslim outrage over denigrating cartoons, a clear truth emerges – Christians and Muslims are different from one another. Our differences are rooted in our vastly divergent beliefs about God.
As a Bible believing Christian, I know myself to be created in God's image, marred by sin, and loved by God. Jesus Christ died for me, and when I put my faith in Him, God forgave all my sins, and accepted me into His family. I can now talk to God, and know Him personally. I've been promised eternity in Heaven with Him. Not so with the Muslim.
A Muslim worships Allah, but Allah is completely incomprehensible to him. Muslim scholars call this "The Difference." There is nothing about Allah that is comparable to man. To compare Allah to man or to man's thoughts is forbidden. When Allah describes himself in the Quran as "merciful" or "compassionate," he is not to be understood in terms of human mercy and compassion. Such a comparison is considered blasphemous. What does Allah mean then, when he so describes himself? No one knows. No one can know Allah, or be sure of his ways. That's "The Difference."
I've dialogued with a number of Muslims over the years, and they're usually offended at my assurance concerning Heaven. They have no such assurance, for Islam offers no personal relationship with Allah. The relational basis for my relationship with God is that I'm created in His image and likeness. Muslims regard the biblical teaching that man is created in the image of God as perverse.
Islamic theology decrees that man is not made in the image of Allah, cannot comprehend Allah, nor have a direct relationship with Allah. Because Allah is under no obligation to any man, he may cast the most devout Muslim into hell, should he choose to do so. Of course, blowing ones' self up in jihad for Allah will likely tip the balance in one's favor – a strong motive for Islamic martyrdom.
The bottom line is that Allah's complete incomprehensibility and total "otherness" leaves a huge void in the heart of the Muslim. Because man is driven to worship something he can relate to, the vacuum created by the incomprehensible Allah is often filled by Muhammad. Although worship of the prophet of Islam is forbidden, the practice is revealed in the constant reverencing of his name. The problem is, Muhammad makes for a very vulnerable god.
Insult is inflammatory when it strikes a note of truth (like a cartoon can do), and Muhammad's dubious legacy and integrity are defended furiously. The recent Islamic uproar reminds me of the old joke about the preacher who was writing out his sermon notes. Toward the end, he jotted to himself in the margin "Weak point – pound fist, speak loudly." Likewise, in the Muslim rioting and burning, we're seeing evidence of vulnerable weakness, not zealous conviction. I despise public denigration of Jesus Christ, but He needs my defense about as much as a lion needs help from a duck.
I have a sense of pity for these rioting, Muslim crowds. In defending Muhammad (and previously, the flushed Quran), there's a desperate attempt to show some fealty to Allah, the unrelatable one. There's also reason for caution in these events. We're not watching the actions of a few, fundamentalist radicals. These are the actions of a huge, violent and deadly dysfunctional religious family now living in our midst.
at February 10, 2006 9:29 AM
Hi Musa:
You have raised a number of interesting questions. But for a start, if you are genuinely curious about why Christians think so highly of Jesus, you can open your Bible to the book of Matthew 28:18-20 to see what Jesus told His apostles, and by Whom's authority. Then go to Matthew 16: 13-20. Read these, then we can talk sensibly.
If you're curious why Christians don't honor Mohammed, you certainly have many examples on this posting thread of Mohammed's behavior that were counter to the behavior of Jesus. If you wish to learn Jesus' warnings about those coming after Him, claiming to preach in His name, read Matthew, Chapter 24, all of it. It certainly has a resonance with the events of today.
Also, while you're at it, open your Bible to the book of Genesis 16:9-12 to learn about the birth of Ishmael and the angel's words concerning Ishmael's future.
By the way, most Christians are aware of the Council of Nicaea. This is not news. There were many freelancer philosophers and religions at that time, some of which made their way down to the Arabian peninsula and were likely picked up by Mohammed while he was taking care of his Boss', later wife's, business. The Council separated the freelance inventions from canonical scripture.
Consider these matters with an open heart. Good luck.
Posted by: Chatillon at February 10, 2006 9:40 AM
Khomeini's speech on the day of celebration of the birth of Muhammad: 1981
"Why do you only read the Quranic verses of mercy and do not read the verses of killing? Quran says; kill, imprison! Why are you only clinging to the part that talks about mercy? Mercy is against God. The prophet has [had] sword to kill people. Our [Holy] Imams were quite military men. All of them were warriors. They used to wield swords; they used to kill people. We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people. In the same way that he massacred the Jews of Bani Qurayza (4) because they were a bunch of discontent people. If the Prophet used to order to burn a house or exterminate a tribe that was justice."
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 10:32 AM
I am agnostic, so I do not have any antagonism toward Islam from a religious perspective. My antagonism stems from the incompatibility of Islamic philosophy & Western philosophy.
If a Jehovah's Witness comes to my door to proselytize, I can say, "No thank you. Goodbye," & he will leave. I am not expected or obligated to follow rules & regulations of Judaism, or Catholicism, or Buddism, or the freakin' Southern Baptists. That's Western philosophy. I am obligated to follow civil rule of law, but my religious following is up to me.
It is the Muslim belief that their "superiority" gives them a right to impose their "religion" on the rest of the world, that really f-ing pisses me off. They will not take, "No thank you. Goodbye," and walk away.
This is what I want from Islam: Leave me alone. Believe whatever the hell you want, about whoever & whatever you want. Throw rocks, beat yourselves, wear bedsheets... I don't give a damn. But don't demand that I partake in your crap.
Leave my laws, my country, my philosophy, my person ALONE.
Posted by: finnschick at February 10, 2006 10:57 AM
Are the muslim posters on this tread (and others areound here) trolls?
I mean, if they really wanted to convince unbelievers of the goodness of their fate, they could come up with something better than this mind-numbing nonsense?
(Shaking head)
Posted by: Derukugi at February 10, 2006 11:04 AM
"WE WITTNESS THAT MUHUMMED IS THE LAST PROPHET OF GOD..."
Tell that to the mormons who claim to have a living prophet right now.
finnschick, good post. I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly.
archimedes, excellent, as usual. We have some really great posters and I wish all of you well. I just wish the muslims would leave our websit alone. It's not as if they are going to change our minds. That is why I don't post on muslim websites.
Posted by: dms at February 10, 2006 11:26 AM
To Malik, musa, fedder, Naseem:
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20936
"These are just some of the facts that Muslims have been keeping secret, but they are enough to make any reasonable person doubt the validity of Islam. Muhammad was guilty of countless murders and of torturing his victims. He robbed caravans and participated in the slave-trade. His persecution of the Jews bordered on genocide. His polygamy went beyond that which even his own revelations permitted (though he did receive a revelation saying that this was okay for him). One of his wives was a nine-year-old girl, whose earliest duties in Muhammad's house included the constant task of washing the semen stains off his clothes. At times he believed he was demon-possessed or under the effect of magic. He was known to be suicidal. He admittedly received a message from Satan and delivered it to the people as if it were from God. He declared that women have half the intellectual ability that men have, that it is okay for men to beat their wives, that most of the inhabitants of hell are women, and that, even if a woman somehow makes it to heaven, her eternity will consist of standing in a corner, waiting for men to sexually enjoy her.[21]
These details about Muhammad raise a very important question: What does a prophet have to do before Muslims will be willing to question whether he is truly the greatest moral example in history? Normally, when we say that someone is a moral person, we mean that he doesn't commit acts such as robbery and murder. Yet Muhammad did all these things and much more. It appears, then, that Muslims are using the term "moral" in a very unique way. In this uniquely Muslim sense of the term, the word "moral" is defined as "whatever Muhammad does." Thus, if Muhammad were to chop off the heads of hundreds of people (which he did), this act would still be defined as a moral act, since Muhammad did it, and anything Muhammad does is, by definition, moral.
But this raises another important question. If God's greatest prophet is free to take part in murder, robbery, genocide, and slave-trading, can we really point a finger at people like Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and say that they are evil? They killed many innocents, but so did Muhammad. Saddam tortured countless people, but so did Muhammad. In fact, one could make a case that Osama bin Laden is morally superior to Muhammad, for, while bin Laden killed thousands of people, he didn't sell their wives and children into slavery, or have sex with a little girl, or marry more than a dozen women.
The truth about Muhammad has been one of the world's best-kept secrets. For centuries, it has been virtually impossible to raise objections about the character of Muhammad in Muslim countries, for anyone who raised such objections would (following the example set by Muhammad himself) immediately be killed. Outside the Muslim world, there has been little interest in Islam, and those who have been interested have typically relied on modern Muslim reports about Muhammad, such as the above passage from Mawdudi. But things have changed. Now many people are interested in Islam, and Muslims aren't able to silence everyone. Moreover, with the advent of the Internet, it is now impossible to keep Muhammad's life a secret. The facts about the founder of Islam are spreading very rapidly, and Muslims are frantically scurrying to defend their faith. But the information superhighway is paving over the ignorance that has for centuries been the stronghold of Islamic dogma. In the end, Islam will fall, for the entire structure is built upon the belief that Muhammad was the greatest moral example in history, and this belief is demonstrably false."
at February 10, 2006 11:51 AM
Naseem,
As to your posting above. Whoever you are (and I believe the contention that
there are actually multiple people posting under your identity), I thank you for
your frankness and honesty. Perhaps you should try to spread this attitude far
and wide? This is a much more reasonable stance to take, and one which holds the
promise of co-existance. I disagree that the world will be islamic in 100 years
but I'm willing to disagree on this if we can co-exist. When islam can take
it's place alongside the other major religions of the world and stop the totalitarian
mindset, we will have come a long way.
Nate,
I agree that sometimes this place takes on the feel of a religious/philosophical
food fight. The rhetoric gets heated and sometimes goes a bit overboard. At least
it remains talk. We do need the input of people from all of the political
and social spectrum, from the left, right and everywhere else. Don't
get discouraged, or judge us all by a few. This confrontation needs to be
broadly based or it will do nothing but struggle.
at February 10, 2006 12:03 PM
Well written, Caroline. What was that about fooling all the people all of the time? I find it amazing that Islam has survived as long as it has. It's end is coming!
Posted by: Razdan at February 10, 2006 12:03 PM
Hey Karim,
First off, Your so called Muslim brothers defined us in the West as infidel dogs, pigs, and monkeys. We never defined Muslim at all. I, personally, have never stereotyped anyone Muslim. Muslims did that themselves.
It's you Muslims that call us monkeys, dogs, and pigs. It's you Muslims that attack unarmed Christians and burn down our churches. Answer this Karim, When was the last time that a mosque was burned to the ground in the United States and the West? When was the last time a Muslim was attack on the street and shot to death by a Christian? When was the last time a Muslim was kidnapped and beheaded in the west?
You Muslims never miss a oportunity to rake Christians and our beliefs over the coals. but say something truthful about Islam that you Muslims don't like, JIHAD!!!
I'd have to assume, from your diction, that you're a member of the Nation of Islam headed by Louis Farrakhan, and I'm giving this man's name a pass on how I really feel about him. Farrakhan is that biggest hypocrit of them all. In 1995, after his Million man March, he travelled to African nations to speak. Only problem was that he, Farrakhan, vowed never to speak in countries that allowed slavery. Mauritania, the Sudan, Tanzania, all allow slavery. but yet Farrakhan visited them!!! Thus why I call him FarraConman.
Karim, you complain about us "westerners" that post on this site. You say to Malik that it's a waste of time. and that we can't help but see the world through an ugly lenses of streotype glasses.
You Muslims made those glasses for the world to see you through! You Muslims try to push your beliefs on people that want nothing to do with Islam. If I want to eat a pork chop sandwich, it should be my right. But you Muslims try to force your rules on a free society. I had a Muslim that tried to physically take food from me because I had a pork byproduct on MY plate. He claimed that he was "saving my life!" Thing is, I never asked him! And what I eat is MY business!
That's the problem that us "westerners' have with you Muslims. We don't stereotype you as much as you try to force your religion on us.
And for the matter, Why wouldn't we want to feel like we're a part of something? I'm sure that when you picked up Islam, it made you feel like you belonged, be it the first time or not.
What you Muslims don't like is that a lot of us did our homework as far as Islam is concerned, and may know more about it than you do. The one thing that I've noticed about you Muslims is that you think that you're above scrutiny, but everyone else are prime targets for your insults and assults. There are some very knowledgable people on this website and you know it. That's why Muslims like Naseem and yourself keep coming back to this site. You're learning! Oh, you maybe kicking and screaming, but you're learning. I have to admit, I've learned a lot that I didn't know or thought that I knew. That's why I keep coming back.
Muslims have tried to label this website as a "hate Islam" website. This was started by, MUSLIMS!!! The truth about Islam is getting out and there is nothing that you can do about it. You Muslims are doing more to expose Islam than us westenrner ever could!!! Muslims and Islam aren't stereotyped by the west. we in the west are just calling it like we see it. On television, it's Muslims protesting cartoons. But yet Muslims in the Middle East are more offensive towards Jews, Christian, and other non Muslims with the cartoons that they draw. On television, we see Muslims burning buildings, flying planes into skyscrapers, raping and killing people.
No, we don't have to stereotype Muslims. You guys have got that job well covered.
at February 10, 2006 12:22 PM
I'll soon be announcing my new web site where you can buy a WWMD bracelet complete with a razor sharp short sword perfect for hacking off the heads of those who offend you for only 29.95. A free WWMD prayer mat for the first 100 customers.
Posted by: Jihad Fodder at February 10, 2006 12:41 PM
Oh my Razdan - I certainly can't take credit for David Wood's prose! :-)
Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2006 12:50 PM
My beloveds (Malik and Musa)
May the Creator of the heavens and the earth reward your valiant strivings in the den of inequity of the shaytin.
One ponders the question: Of all the professed religions of the world... WHY has Islam become the chief and sole obsession of so many Americans? Is it purely because of the events of September 11, or are there other reasons? What motivates so many people that are not Muslim to spend countless hours researching Islam if they want nothing to do with it?
Be sure, this is a dedicated, well-orchestrated, totally planned campaign being waged to disuade as many people as possible from their chosen religion (funny, they are not interested in converting the atheists, wiccans or satanists), and turn back as many Muslims as they can from their religion. If this were not so, you would be able to engage in intelligent dialogue with these people and discuss and compare religion respectfully without trading insults.
The tendency to apply today's standards to acts that occurred more than 1,400 years ago is also suspect, given the fact that Muslims are accused of living in the past and following a religion that is archaic and obsolete. The bible, revered by millions as irrefutable truth from God, is never put under similar scrutiny.
For example, Prophet Lot is reported to have slept with his two daughters after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah at their urging, fearing that the world needed to be repopulated and they were the only survivors as seen in these direct quotes from the bible, NIV:
"Lot and His Daughters" NIV, Genesis 19:30-36
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [h] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.
Should we question the morals of Prophet Lot and his daughters for engaging in this obvious act of incest?
Still more distressing passages of immorality can be found in Genesis 38:13-18. I challenge anyone anywhere to find a single passage that says Muhammad slept with his daughters, committed adultery, or fornicated even once outside of marriage:
13 When Tamar was told, "Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep," 14 she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.
15 When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16 Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, "Come now, let me sleep with you." "And what will you give me to sleep with you?" she asked.
17 "I'll send you a young goat from my flock," he said. "Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?" she asked.
18 He said, "What pledge should I give you?"
"Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand," she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19 After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow's clothes again.
And in the following passages, David lies with Bathshebah, a black hittite woman, the wife of Uriah, plots for him to be killed in battle, and earns the wrath of God. Notice that the prophets of the bible did not shy away from killing and warfare. Also notice that in 2 Samuel 11:4, Bathshebah lay with David after ritually "purifying" herself from "uncleanness". Why was she considered "unclean"?:
2 Samuel 11:1-26 (NIV)
David and Bathsheba
1 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king's men and the whole Israelite army. They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.
2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then [a] she went back home. 5 The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant."
6 So David sent this word to Joab: "Send me Uriah the Hittite." And Joab sent him to David. 7 When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. 8 Then David said to Uriah, "Go down to your house and wash your feet." So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. 9 But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master's servants and did not go down to his house.
10 When David was told, "Uriah did not go home," he asked him, "Haven't you just come from a distance? Why didn't you go home?"
11 Uriah said to David, "The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents, and my master Joab and my lord's men are camped in the open fields. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and lie with my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!"
12 Then David said to him, "Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back." So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13 At David's invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master's servants; he did not go home.
14 In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. 15 In it he wrote, "Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."
16 So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. 17 When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David's army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.
18 Joab sent David a full account of the battle. 19 He instructed the messenger: "When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, 20 the king's anger may flare up, and he may ask you, 'Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn't you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? 21 Who killed Abimelech son of Jerub-Besheth [b] ? Didn't a woman throw an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?' If he asks you this, then say to him, 'Also, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.' "
22 The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. 23 The messenger said to David, "The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance to the city gate. 24 Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king's men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead."
25 David told the messenger, "Say this to Joab: 'Don't let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.' Say this to encourage Joab."
26 When Uriah's wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. 27 After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the LORD.
Should the bible as a result be viewed as a manual of incest and debauchery because of these passages? What do these passages tell us about the lowly status of women during these times?
And what sense shall we make of the following biblical passages about the sons of Prophet Noah? It has been a long-standing dispute that these passages infer that the black-skinned peoples of Africa are the descendents of Ham, the Canaanites, cursed by Noah to be the eternal "slaves" of their brothers (see Genesis 9:24-27). If this is not true, why haven't these passages been stricken from the bible, as they would have Muslims strike offensive passages from the qur'an? Note also that Noah is reported to have lived 950 YEARS, when the average life expectancy of a human today is about 75 years. I don't hear anyone challenging the validity of this claim.
The Sons of Noah (NIV) Genesis 9:18-28
18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
"Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers."
26 He also said,
"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem. [b]
27 May God extend the territory of Japheth [c] ;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be his [d] slave."
28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died.
My beloveds, I give these few passages to you as an example of the deception, dishonesty, and twisted purpose of those who attack you here, who spend all of their energies and exhaust their knowledge and resources attacking Muslims and what we believe, without looking at what they claim to believe themselves.
May God the Creator grant you peace and mercy and forgiveness of your sins. Salutations of peace to Muhammad and all the prophets and companions of heaven.
Posted by: hatshepsut at February 10, 2006 12:56 PM
Sorry, Musa:
The god of Islam (al-lah) is NOT the god of Judeo-Christianity (Yahweh). Allah is NOT Yahweh and never will be!!!!!
Get your facts straight, pal.
Yahweh's message has NOTHING whatever to do with the Qur'an or Muhammed.
Allah is the being that has legitimized and legalized murder, slavery, theft, rape, torture, dismemberment, pedophilia, religious persecution, genocide and many other horrors humanity has been forced to deal with. Allah has gone under the names of ba-al, sin,the moon-god, and Marduk. Allah had 3 daughters. None of this remotely appears in Judeo-Christianity.
Quit while you are ahead. Islam's al-taqiyya won't cut it with us. We aren't morons encase you haven't noticed.
Posted by: pythagoras at February 10, 2006 1:04 PM
The man who hung crucified on the cross at Calvary called God, 'Eli', in the aramaic tongue
Some call God Yahweh
Others call him Jehovah
Muslims call God 'Allah', the creator, Lord of all the worlds, with 99 of the most beautiful names and attributes
Muslims call the rejected satan caste down from his place to the nether regions and whose proper name among jin was 'Iblis', 'Shaitan'.
Have a nice day.
Posted by: hatshepsut at February 10, 2006 1:20 PM
Allat, the moon goddess of the pagan arabs, existed in pre-islamic arabia. As the chief idol, her statue was struck down and destroyed by none other than Prophet Abraham in what we now know today as the Holy Kab'ah in Mecca, KSA.
Ishtar, the chief goddess of Babylon in the valley of the two great rivers of the fertile crescent and cradle of world civilization, was worshipped in the valley of the samurians of what is present-day Iraq.
Eve, wife of Adam, is credited for bringing sin into the world for listening to satan in the Garden of Eden. As a result, christianity teaches that all womankind are cursed with the sin of menses and must bear children in pain.
Perhaps this is today why misogynistic religions have caste women as spiritually impure, evil and unclean beings. Ponder and think before casting stones of judgement.
Many of the worlds occult religions owe their origins to ancient eastern mysticism. Mysticism, satanism, and occultism have ancient, eastern origins, such as the cult of Mithra, which today is enjoying great revival in western countries.
at February 10, 2006 1:30 PM
Nate--
More power to you. I'm with you 100 percent. I'm grateful for Robert's site, even if I don't always agree with the spin he puts on things. I'm deeply opposed to Islamofacism and am supicious of Islam in general but that doesn't mean I see this conflict in Manichean terms. As for your comments on the posters, you're right. There are definitely some people with foam-flecked lips out there. Even when a point is worth making, too many people get caught up in dog-piling--bad form in my book. But it can get worse than that. There is a definite lynch-mob vibe emanating from some streams. It's a pity really because more critical thinkers need to be drawn to this site. Unfortunately, some posters make it easier for critics to label this as a hate-site.
Raynor
Posted by: Raynor at February 10, 2006 1:35 PM
Hatsheput--
Thanks for your post. Jews and Christians who point out dubious passages in the Qur'an and Hadith as justifications for hating Islam are unquestionably hypocrites. They need look no further than their own holy texts, particularly the Old Testament/Torah, for such passages.
That said, as an agnostic who cherishes the civil liberties and the openess of Western culture, I find no other religion more threatening to the values I love than Islam. Yes, there are some scary Christians and Jews out there. One thinks of those who avidly read the LEFT BEHIND series or settlers who pray at the tomb of Baruch Goldstein. Nevertheless, Islamofacism and the many moderate Muslims who sympathize with its aims, are far bigger threats in my book.
Thanks again.
Raynor
at February 10, 2006 1:59 PM
Hathsheput:
If you read the text you have pasted above and reflect on it, you will see the development of God's plan and law. David's sin, the arranged death of Uriah and the adultery with Bathsheba, is in fact used as an example of sincere contrition and forgiveness. Christians and Jews know this. Now you should too.
If you care to sincerely read the Bible, you will see in the Gospel further exposition of God's plan. The life of Jesus is for Christians the example to follow. Mohammed has no status in Chrsitianity, not because scripture was changed, but because Jesus said all that needed to be said to complete God's revelation. As I suggested to another poster, you might want to review Matthew Chapter 24 for Jesus' comments concerning prophets who were to follow.
Everybody here is free to discuss these matters, to believe or not. Jesus made no threats against those who did not follow His words and example, aside from their loss of God's Kingdom. One thing I've noted while reading through my copy of the Qur'an is how often followers of your Allah are referred to as slaves. Biblical references to Believers are as to servants. I just wonder if this is due to the translation or whether it yet another example of how your religion differs from that revelaed by Jesus. A slave is compelled to give his service, a servant chooses to serve. A slave cannot leave his master. A servant remains free to stay or to go.
It is my observation that there is no tolerance of Free Will in Islam. It is absolute submission. Allah apparently prefers slaves. My God, while warning of the outcome of evil, permits the individual to choose, good or evil. Compulsion in religion is no great witness to the strength of any "prophet's" words. So why are ex-Moslems threatened with death? Why do Moslems threaten death to non_Moslems so liberally?
I would like to think of you as a sincere person, but somehow your words of long-suffering forebearance in the face of abuse and insutls ring hollow. We at this site don't need your Da'wa. We need you to exercise your God-given ability to sincerely reflect and to choose, and respect the right of others to also do so, without threats of death and destruction. Go in peace.
Posted by: Chatillon at February 10, 2006 2:05 PM
Hatshepsut--
My apologies for mispelling your name in my post above.
Raynor
Posted by: Raynor at February 10, 2006 2:19 PM
Jeez... Haven't Ji-had enough? Don't Mecca such a fuss! And, remember... All religions breed insanity. So you're not THAT special after all!
Posted by: clear_thinking_atheist at February 10, 2006 2:26 PM
Nate, I now have a better idea of your views...sounds reasonable to me...thanks.
Posted by: Archimedes at February 10, 2006 3:49 PM
Hats,
You've got it wrong again. Eve did not bring sin into the world, Adam did. Yes, Eve did listen to the serpent in the garden. But Adam knew what was going on the whole time. You see Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. Adam had the attributes of God scaled down. The mind of the Lord God. Adam could see all that was going on in the garden of Eden.
Eve was Adam's guinea pig.
In Genesis 2:16,17
"And the Lord God commanded the MAN, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
After this warning, Lord God then created Eve.
You see, Adam failed in his job of being the steward over what Lord God had given him charge. Adam could have stopped the serpent. But he didn't want to!!! He didn't step in to stop Eve because he wanted to see if what Lord God said was true. God had instructed Adam about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not Eve. That was Adam's job. Adam knew. He was the one that taught Eve about the tree!!! Why do you think the serpent didn't try to tempt Adam? Eve was the "weaker vessel." And Adam was selfish. Adam was to protect Eve. He let his selfishness be the death of all mankind. He sacrificed Eve.
It was only after Eve ate that Adam ate. When he saw that Eve didn't fall over dead, Adam thought it was alright. It was then that after he ate that the world came into this hell that we now live in. It wasn't Eve's sin that caused the fall of man. It was Adam's sin. Adam got the word from Lord God Himself and disobeyed. Note that nothing happened when Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Only when Adam ate.
And for the record, the Bible was written 600 years before the koran. I see nowhere in the Bible where one of the names of God the Father being Jehovah Allah. If the koran is the word of God the Father, it should read the same as the Bible. Refer to the Bible. The Bible tells us that, "God is not the author of confusion." But yet the Bible and koran don't compliment each other in the least.
I wonder why?
at February 10, 2006 4:26 PM
Islam Means Peace.
May Allah (swt) open your hearts and remove the hatred.
Some verses from the Quran:
Chapter 36 (Ya-Sin --O Mankind)
Verses 77-83
77: Does man not see that it is Allah who created him from a sperm? Yet see! He makes himself an open enemy!
78: And he draws comparisons for Us, And forgets his own true origin of Creation and he says "What can give life to dry and rotted bones?"
79: Say "He (Allah) will give them (the bones) life
The One who created them for the first time! Because He is full of knowledge for Every kind of creation
80. "The same Allah who created fire out of the green tree, For you, who see! You may start a fire wity it.
81: "Can He who created the heavens and the earth not create another like it?" Yes indeed, he can. Because He is Supreme Creator, with skill and knowledge (wihtout limits)
82: Surely, when He wants anything His command to it is, "Be" and it is!
83: So Glory to Him in Whose hands is the Kingdom of all things And to Him all of you will be brought back.
at February 10, 2006 4:43 PM
"And for the record, the Bible was written 600 years before the koran. I see nowhere in the Bible where one of the names of God the Father being Jehovah Allah. If the koran is the word of God the Father, it should read the same as the Bible. Refer to the Bible. The Bible tells us that, "God is not the author of confusion." But yet the Bible and koran don't compliment each other in the least.
I wonder why?"
Allah is the Arabic form of the Hebrew Ela or Elaha.
What did Jesus say on the cross," Eli Eli, lema sabahtani? Actually in Aramaic the word for god is Alaha.
at February 10, 2006 4:51 PM
The beauty and miracle of the Quran is that it is the exact words of Allah (God); unfortunately, man corrupted and changed the Bible. Jesus (peace be upon him) NEVER stated that he is the son of God. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), the last prophet is the seal (last)of the prophets.
Chapter 2, verse 285:
The Propeht believes in what was revealed to him from His Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one believes in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers. They say "we make no distinction between one and another of His messengers." And they say, "we hear, and we obey: we seek Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the end of all journeys."
at February 10, 2006 5:02 PM
islam means submission
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
at February 10, 2006 6:41 PM
Luke 10
21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 10, 2006 6:47 PM
More
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at February 10, 2006 6:53 PM
: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Now who do you suppose that would be? Hmmmmmm
at February 10, 2006 6:54 PM
dear hatshepsut ..thank u .
i expected such things would exist in the bible since we know that it is been forged and faked , but how can kids be taught such stories , a prophet getting drunk and sleeping with his daughtrs , really sick people who made up these stories in the bible , and those who belive that these sick stories is from god is really misguided ... jesus peace on him never claimed to be god and preached for the belive and worship of one almighty god .. thus they made him god.. jesud peace on him did not differ from all prophets came befor him,teaching the oness of god ..... so many deleting and adding occurred to the bible after jesus ... the trinity was created by a doctine 325...MAN MADE years after jesus peace on him ..sure jesus peace with him is innocent from their acts
Posted by: musa at February 10, 2006 7:31 PM
dear hatshepsut ..thank u .
i expected such things would exist in the bible since we know that it is been forged and faked , but how can kids be taught such stories , a prophet getting drunk and sleeping with his daughtrs , really sick people who made up these stories in the bible ,
This from worshippers of mohammad who "married" a 6 year old girl.
at February 10, 2006 9:25 PM
Hi Musa:
Some of your questions and assertions were answered in earlier posts. Perhaps you should read them before reasserting your earlier mistakes. The other posters will not think you are seriously engaging in discussion otherwise.
Do not be afraid to learn.
Hi Islam is Peace:
You made a few boo-boos in your earlier posts. First, your logon name "Islam is Peace" is incorrect. As Carolyn2 pointed out, Islam is submission. This is already widely known and to pretend otherwise makes you look like you are trying to deceive people, which of course we know you are not trying to do at all. Also, perhaps you've noticed, people who post on this site have serious misgivings about Islam having any parctical connection to peace, at least peace and tolerance. Maybe you've adopted the logon name to help reassure the rest of us. If so, you are very kind.
Another issue is that of the Bible being changed by humans. Is this similar to the Satanic Verses in the Qur'an which made their appearance and then were taken out? Or is this similar to Sura 2 verse 106 in the Qur'an "Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring in place one better or the like thereof." Frankly, I would like to know which verses of the Bible need to be repaired. I know exactly how well-intentioned you are.
As I mentioned to Musa, there are earlier references that can answer some of your questions(i.e. Matthew 28:18-20 to see what Jesus told His apostles, and by Whose authority. Then go to Matthew 16: 13-20). Carolyn2's references are good as well. Go. Read them honestly. Then we can talk honestly. YOu shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
Posted by: Chatillon at February 10, 2006 9:59 PM
Malik2day
Just read "The Politically Incorrect Guide To Islam" by Robert Spencer, if you dare.
Even your own muslim clerics acknowledge Muhammad
killed many people.
As far as "What Would Muhammad Do?"
F==K Muhammad as he started this mess. In all seriousness, Muhammand was illiterate, just as God works thru people, Satan works thru people and Satan worked thru Muhammad to create an evil cult. The Islamic obsession with hating Jews is very Biblical just as Satan hates the Jews and Chritians.
Life is a spiritual journey and a battle for man's soul. Satan is referenced in the Bible many times as the Great Deceiver. And he has deceived billions and they are called Muslims, probably cause most are illiterate themselves.
Posted by: learjet0450 at February 10, 2006 10:29 PM
yes married , and they loved eash others , , not like in your fake bible adultery stories , and father having sex with his daugtors , and much much worst .. come on .give me a brake pls .. would jesus as a mighty prophet teach such things , and would god almighty the only one who forbids adultry , accept such acts from his messanges ... pls for god sake study islam more with open mind and u will find all the questions u have answered ...may god almighty guide all of us to the true path ...AMEN
Posted by: musa at February 10, 2006 10:40 PM
"We are still waiting for those WMD to turn up."
Such an intellectually dumb statement.
Even the UN Inspectors said that it is reasonably
certain that WMD were moved to Syria (with the help of Russia).
WMD will never be "found" since the Democrats and the MSM hate Pres Bush.
I could write pages about WMD but will just say this and let you do YOUR own research > TUWAITHA COMPLEX located 20 miles north of Baghdad.
at February 10, 2006 10:40 PM
Any honest intellectual comparison of the Bible with the Koran will show that the Koran was plagerized from the Bible.
The Koran is nothing more than a series of "statements' or "sayings", totally devoid of context or chronology.
To understand the Bible one has to understand the context and it's historical message.
Posted by: learjet0450 at February 10, 2006 10:59 PM
This site has been invaded by trolls. Numbers of them...break out the troll spray.
Musa...I asked but you never explained what you meant when you said 'Jesus is the word'. Cat got your tounge?
Hat...what is the point in all that preaching...you a frustrated Imam or something?
Not thirty cents worth of gray matter in the whole bunch. Proof that Islam stunts mental growth. You are all possessed by Mohammads demon, Allah...the Lord of Matter. All evil happens in matter and look who is in charge. Allah/Satan. One is the mirror image of the other. You guys worship that, and call IT God???
No wonder you are so screwed up...
at February 11, 2006 1:16 AM
Musa:
You said:
"...would jesus as a mighty prophet teach such things , and would god almighty the only one who forbids adultry , accept such acts from his messanges"
It is evident that you haven't read the Gospels. If you think that Jesus taught adultery, you don't know what Jesus said. So why do you try to convince Christians that they are wrong? It appears that you have taken the "Ahmed Deedat Course in Da'wa." Ahmed was like the little child who reads without understanding, raises questions without listening to the answers, who wants to appear wise by simply attempting to make other people look foolish. Ahmed is dead now and has gone on to his judgement. Why don't you read the Gospel yourself and make up your own mind? It won't hurt you to know the simple truth of what it says. Then you can speak from an informed position.
Posted by: Chatillon at February 11, 2006 8:25 AM
Hello all. Salam aleikum brothers. I'm glad to see fellow Muslims on this site, as I have been practically alone so far...
I haven't read all the posts but let me say you do a pretty damn job :)
Now that Spencer's lie has been exposed enough, I thought, since our dear bible thumpers friends have said such lovely things about Islam and our dear prophet (pbuh), that I would post some of the not so well known parts of the bible, so we can make an informed comparison. Here it goes:
Muhammad had ordered slaughters? Well, lets see what the Christian god himself ordered!
Numbers 25:4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the HEADS of the people, and HANG them up before THE LORD, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
Judges 1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they SLEW TEN THOUSAND MEN.
Ezek. 9:5 And the Lord said, "Go through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN.
[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. Moses said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. (which means every virgin female, including little girls)
[Josh 6:16] Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city of the Canaanites.. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD.
[Judg. 21:10] The congregation of Benjamin sent twelve thousand of their bravest men, and commanded them, "Go and smite the inhabitants of Ja'-besh-gil'ead with the edge of the sword; also the women and the little ones. Every male and every woman that has lain with a male YOU SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY.
Their “bravest” men… that’s rich.
[Deut. 20:10] When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it SHALL BE FORCED LABOUR FOR YOU AND SHALL SERVE YOU.
But if it makes no peace with you, then you shall besiege it, .. YOU SHALL PUT ALL ITS MALES TO THE SWORD, BUT THE WOMEN AND THE LITTLE ONES, the cattle and every thing else in the city all its spoil, YOU SHALL TAKE AS BOOTY FOR YOURSELVES; AND YOU SHALL ENJOY THE SPOIL OF YOUR ENEMIES.
Deuteronomy 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, YOU SHALL LEAVE ALIVE NOTHING THAT BREATHES.
Deuteronomy 20:17 BUT YOU SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY THEM: the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord your God HAS COMMANDED YOU.
Don’t miss that:
(…) so you wont imitate the detestable things they do.
Precious!
Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and TOTALLY DESTROY EVERYTHING THAT BELONGS TO THEM. DO NOT SPARE THEM; PUT TO DEATH MEN AND WOMEN, CHILDREN AND INFANTS, CATTLE AND SHEEP, CAMELS AND DONKEYS.
Ezekiel 9:6 SLAUGHTER OLD MEN, YOUG MEN, AND MAIDENS, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)A day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, WOMEN RAPED; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Slay “infants and sucklings”:
[Samuel 15:2-4] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but SLAY BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, INFANTS AND SUCKLINGS, OX AND SHEEP, CAMEL AND ASS.
The happiness of dashing sucklings on the rocks:
[Psalm 137:8-9] O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us. O THE HAPPINESS OF HIM WHO SEIZE, AND HAS DASHED YOUR SUCKLINGS ON THE ROCK!
Ripping pregnant women open:
[Hosea 13:16] The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, THEIR PREGNANT WOMEN RIPPED OPEN BY SWORDS.
Muhammad forgave children who threw stones at him. What did the prophet Elisha to children who merely mocked him?
[Kings 2:23-24] From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. THEN TWO BEARS CAME OUT OF THE WOODS, AND MAULED FORTY-TWO OF THE YOUTHS.
To those who say how Muslims must “sacrifice” for their god:
[Numbers 31:35-40] [From the captives of war]
32,000 women who had never slept with a man
OF WHICH THE TRIBUTE FOR THE LORD WAS 32.
Numbers 31:31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was
675,000 sheep,
72,000 cattle,
61,000 donkeys
and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep,
of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.
[Samuel 4:10-12] a man told me, 'Saul is dead,' and thought he was bringing good news, I seized him and put him to death in Ziklag. That was the reward I gave him for his news! So David gave an order to his men, and they killed them. THEY CUT OFF THEIR HANDS AND FEETS AND HUNG THE BODIES BY THE POOL IN HEBRON. But they took the head of Ish-Bosheth and buried it in Abner's tomb at Hebron.
Moses obscure past:
[Exodus 2:13-14] The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"
The man said, "Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses was afraid and thought, "What I did must have become known."(doh!)
Muhammad let go the Jewish tribe who had attacked the Muslims; let's see how the Israelites treated the Midianites for merely deceiving them:
[Numbers 25:17-18] Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
[Kings 21:20-21] Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!" "I have found you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the Lord. I am going to bring disaster on you. I WILL CONSUME YOUR DESCENDANTS AND CUT OFF FROM AHAB EVERY MALE IN ISRAEL, SLAVE OR FREE.
Cutting the hands of women who help their husbands:
[Deuteronomy 25:11-12] If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts (!!??), YOU SHALL CUT OFF HER HAND. SHOW HER NO PITY.
[Ezequiel 23:25] I will direct my jealous anger against you, and they will deal with you in fury. THEY WILL CUT OFF YOUR NOSES AND YOUR EARS, AND THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE LEFT WILL FALL BY THE SWORD. THEY WILL TAKE AWAY YOUS SONS AND DAUGHTERS, and THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE LEFT WILL BE CONSUMED BY FIRE.
Killing both the righteous and the wicked:
[Ezekiel 21:3-4] …and say to her: 'This is what the LORD says: I am against you. I WILL DRAW MY SWORD FROM ITS SCABBARD AND CUT FROM YOU BOTH THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north.
Here is a good one:
[Deuteronomy 22-28] If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, HE SHALL PAY THE FATHER FIFTY SHEKELS OF SILVER. HE MUST MARRY THE GIRL, FOR HE HAS VIOLATED HER. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
PAUL AND RACISM
[Gal. 2:15] Paul said, "We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners."
[Gal. 4:22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave, and by a free women. BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? "CAST OUT THE SLAVE AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF SLAVE SHALL NOT INHERIT WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN" SO, BRETHREN WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE SLAVE BUT OF THE FREE WOMAN."
SLAVERY
And they found among the inhabitants four hundred YOUNG VIRGINS who had not known a man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp of Shiloh, which is the land of Canaan. And Benjamin returned at that time, and they gave them the women whom they had saved alive of the women of Ja'besh-gil'ead, BUT THEY DID NOT SUFFICE FOR THEM.
"Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. " - Genesis 9.25,27.
[Josh. 16:10] So the Canaanites have dwelt in the midst of E'phraim to this day, but become slaves to do forced labour. (see also Joshua 17:13 and Judg. 1:30)
[Timothy 6:1] All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them.
[Peter 2:18] "18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
THE BIBLE MISREPRESENTS GOD’S MERCY
[Heb. 12:29] OUR GOD IS DESTROYING FIRE.
[Psalm. 94:1] O LORD, YOU GOD OF VENGEANCE.
[Ezek. 11:8] God said, "You have feared the sword, the sword I will bring upon you."
[Amos 9:1] I will slay that left of them with the sword, not one of them shall flee away.. I WILL COMMAND THE SWORD, AND IT SHALL SLAY THEM.
[Jer.49:37] I will send the sword after them, until i have consumed them (Let those who say Islam is the religion of the sword know that the word "sword" is never mentioned in the Quran while the Bible mentions it many times, in the way that you see here).
[Ezek. 12:14] I will unsheathe the sword after them. I will let a few of them escape from the sword, from famine and pestilence.
Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'
EATING SONS AND DAUGHTERS
[Jer. 19:7] The Lord said, "T WILL MAKE THEM EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbour.
[Levi.26:14] If you will not hearken to me.. I will bring a sword upon you.. YOU SHALL EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS, AND DAUGHTERS.
[Lam. 2:20] LOOK O LORD, AND SEE! WITH WHOM YOU HAVE DONE THAT: SHOULD WOMEN EAT THEIR FRUIT AND CHILDREN OF A SPAN LONG?
[Lam. 4:4] The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children. They became their food.
TREATMENT OF CHILDREN:
[Deuteronomy 21:18-21] If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then ALL THE MEN OF HIS TOWN SHALL STONE HIM TO DEATH. YOU MUST PURGE THE EVIL FROM AMONG YOU. All Israel will hear of it and shall KNOW FEAR.
That is what I would call strict discipline!
SELLING DAUGHTERS AS SLAVES:
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)When a man sells his daughter as a slave (...)
Said Jesus!
[Math. 10:34] "Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING PEACE, BUT A SWORD. "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother."
[Luke. 12:49] 'I CAME TO CAST FIRE UPON THE EARTH, AND WOULD THAT IT WERE ALREADY KINDLED.. DO YOU THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO GIVE PEACE ON EARTH? NO, I TELL YOU, BUT RATHER DIVISION; for from henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father, mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother.
[Luke. 14:26] If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters yes and even his own life: he cannot be my disciple.
[Revelation 2:18-22] So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I WILL STRIKE HER CHILDREN DEAD. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds
[John 15:1-12] I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away an withers; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE, AND BURNED.
[Matthew 5:32] But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery
WOMEN
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all" (Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).
No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).
GENTILES IN THE BIBLE
[Isia. 49:22] Thus the Lord said, "Behold I will lift up my hand to the gentiles, and raise up my signal to the people, and they shall bring your sons in their bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. WITH THEIR FACES TO THE GROUND THEY SHALL BOW DOWN TO YOU, AND LICK THE DUST OF YOUR FEET.
[Isia. 60:4] Lift up your eyes round about, and see, they all gather together, they come to you. THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS SHALL COME UNTO YOU and the sons of the foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister unto you... MEN MAY BRING UNTO YOU THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS
The nations and kingdoms that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste. YOU SHALL SUCK THE MILK OF THE NATIONS, YOU SHALL SUCK THE BREAST OF KINGS.
[Isia. 61:5] And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedresses. BUT YOU SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD. Men shall call you the ministers of God. YOU SHALL EAT THE RICHES OF THE NATIONS AND IN THEIR GLORY SHALL YOU BOAST YOURSELVES.
EX 22:20 Anyone who sacrifices to other gods must be destroyed.
LE 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death.
NU 3:10 An unauthorized person who acts as a priest must be put to death.
DT 13:6-10 A man is required to slay his friends and members of his own family who are guilty of worshipping another god.
DT 17:12 A man who shows contempt for a judge or priest must be put to death.
DT 18:20-22, EZ 14:9 If a prophet's words do not come true, he is a false prophet and must be put to death. This is true even if he has been deceived by God himself.
DT 22:23-24 A betrothed virgin who is seduced in the city is to be put to death unless she cries for help.
MK 10:2-12, LK 16:18 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery.
LE 20:10-12, DT 22:22 Adulterers (in some cases) must be put to death.
PR 13:24, 22:15, 23:13 Children are to be disciplined with the rod-- if beaten with a rod, they will not die. (Note: Many Christian parents have inadvertently beaten a child to death following this precept.)
MT 5:29-30, 18:8-9, MK 9:43-47 If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
Muhammad took more wives than allowed for the rest of the muslims? Hell, David the son of God took a married wife!
King David is God’s begotten son: "I (David) will declare the decree: the LORD had said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. In this verse, we clearly see how God loved King David so much, that he chose him to be his begotten Son.
Knowing this, let’s examine a revelating episode of David’s life.
[Samuel 11:2-4] One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, 'Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?' Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her.
So what happened to "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)"????
WELL A BIT OF A DOUBLE STANDARD HERE, NO????
God prohibiting brothers from marrying their biological sisters after he initially allowed it for Abraham and Sarah:
[Genesis 20:12] And yet indeed she is my sister; SHE IS THE DAUGHTER OF MY FATHER, but not the daughter of my mother; AND SHE BECAME MY WIFE.
Cursed be he that lies with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:22)"
X-RATED CONTENT: THE GOSPELS OF PORN
[Song of Songs 8:1-3] "If only you were to me like a brother, who was nursed at my mother's breasts! Then, if I found you outside, I would kiss you, and no one would despise me. (Does that mean that brothers and sisters kissed each other at biblical times?) I would lead you and bring you to my mother's house-- she who has taught me. I WOULD GIVE YOU SPICED WINE TO DRINK, THE NECTAR OF MY POMEGRANATES.
[Song of Songs 8:8-10] "We have a young sister, and her breasts are not yet grown. What shall we do for our sister for the day she is spoken for (…) I am a wall, and MY BREASTS ARE LIKE TOWERS. Thus I have become in his eyes like one bringing contentment.
YOUR TWO BREASTS ARE LIKE TWO FAWNS, like twin fawns of a gazelle that browse among the lilies."
My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts
[Song of Songs 7:1-4] How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands. YOUR NAVEL IS A ROUNDED GOBLET THAT NEVER LACKS BLENDED WINE.
[23:19-22] Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. THERE SHE LUSTED AFTER HER LOVERS, WHOSE GENITALS WERE LIKE THOSE OF DONKEYS AND WHOSE EMISSION WAS LIKE THAT OF HORSES.
Not surprising that so many Christians convert to Islam. With its so said incoherency and violence, it is still better than this grotesque pile of trash.
Posted by: Ispanan at February 11, 2006 1:36 PM
Islamspam, why do you bother?
Why are you literate if you concern yourself only with things you don't understand, with nonsense and failing attempts at Da'wa?
What good is knowledge if it comes without understanding? You are like a guy who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing!
If you want to engage in bible studies why don't you find like minded people? You won't find them here.
This website is about Islamic Jihad and how civilized countries can rid themselves of infiltration by Mohammedans.
Your posts are OT and if I were the host you would have been banned long ago...
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at February 11, 2006 2:56 PM
Ispanan, you have twisted Scripture in order to lie about Christianity. First of all, there is no Song of Solomon 23:19-22 - it only goes to 8 chapters. Where does that filth come from about genitals of donkeys? It must be your own book - it doesn't come from the Bible. And Abraham and Sarah were not brother and sister. You can look it up yourself in Genesis 20. You are flat out lying.
Regarding the rest of your rant, I want to tell you that you are confused. The Bible is not a book that idealizes mankind. Unlike your book, the Bible shows us men and women who are real, who have made mistakes, who turn to God in those mistakes and learn to be faithful to Him. Yes, God forgave David, he wasn't perfect. We don't expect our people to be perfect. But we can learn from their mistakes. We learn that God is forgiving, and so we must also be forgiving.
We don't expect to take norms in a culture that is 3000-4000 years old and try to apply them to our culture today. Unlike Islam, the Bible never pretends to be a civil law for Christians. We have a historical record of how a society was run (ie Israel) and we glean facts and perspective from it, but we do not try to apply these rules to today.
You know, Islam would be wise to follow our example.
Posted by: Kay at February 11, 2006 3:00 PM
salam ispanan ...thats the kind of stuff i like to see , to show them how misguided they are .. pls show us these and more of these often so the misguided to be enlightened and saved from the mess they are in
Posted by: musa at February 11, 2006 8:15 PM
Hi Ispanan, Musa and other Moslems:
It's nice to see that you've read so much of Scripture. By now, you must be almost as great a Biblical scholar as Ahmed Deedat! Like Ahmed, you have cut down many branches but you still don't have a picture of the forest yet. Would you seriously like these passages explained to you, or do you prefer your forest?
But speaking of branches, it is very interesting that John[15:1-12] caught your eye. I can't encourage you enough to reflect on this passage. In fact, read the Gospels generally in order to get a sense of what Jesus would do in any given situation, such as dealing with sinners, personal insult or blasphemy. Compare it to Mohammed's example.
(For your information, the Gospels are the written records of Christ's actions and deeds, as recounted by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John).
You show a little confusion in some of your interpretations of Scripture, but keep trying and keep reading with an open heart. Good Luck.
Posted by: Chatillon at February 13, 2006 9:49 AM
Karim,
You can try that with someone that dosen't know. Arabic wasn't even spoken in the Holyland back then. The ruling languages were Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Thus why the Bible was written in and translated from these languages.
Your quote,
"Allah is the Arabic form of the Hebrew Ela or Elaha."
If Jesus was speaking Aramic, your statement would stand. But He wasn't!!! He was using the dialect of His people. Hebrew. Now to be honest, I could be wrong on the language that Jesus spoke. But I am sure as you're born positive Jesus did NOT speak Aramic.
Now in Matthew Jesus cried,
"Eli, Eli, lama sabach thani,"
In the Gospel of Mark Jesus cried,
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabach thani."
Now if you search the Holy Scriptures you find other titles for God the Father, Jehovah Jireh, Jehovah Nissi, and even Jehovah Eliohim. All of these names are before The first line of Aramic was even written. Over 1000 years before the koran!!!
In otherwords the Hebrew langauge came long before the Aramic langauge. If anything, the Quraysh tribe, the ruling tribe that the false prophet Muhammad belonged to, translated the Hebrew langauge into Aramic and did a piss poor job of it.
No matter how you Muslims try, there is no way that the koran is the "true" word of God. Once again they would compliment each other!!! God is not the author of confusion. Now the pedophile false prophet Muhammad?, That's a whole other matter. It was once said that the illegitamte son of Abram by Hagar, was the "father of Islam" and that the name "Islam" is derived from his name, Ishmael. But upon further research nothing could be further from the truth. Because the God that Ishmael served was the same God that his father Abram served. Thus, if Ishmael is the father of Islam, then the Bible would be the Holy book of Muslims as well. Not the koran. Muslims are rumored to be "the children of Ishmael! And Ishmael's father was Abram come Abraham, the father of many nations! Who's God was Jehovah Jireh!!! Not Jehovah Allah.
Back to the Jesus thing, In the koran, dosen't it say that Judas, not Jesus, was crucified? According to the koran, Jesus and Judas were identical. And according to the koran, Judas was mistaken for Jesus, which caused Judas to be crucified!!! This is in the koran. I've read it myself!!! Thus further raising the question of continuity of the koran with the Bible.
That bright light is the truth shining down on the koran. Besides, you Muslims don't even believe in the diety of Jesus!!!
Exposing the fraud that is Islam.
at February 14, 2006 4:33 PM
Ironman Hondo:
You are confusing Aramaic, which Jesus did speak, and arabic, which he did not.
BTW, I LOVE your posts - you are one of my favorite posters. You just got it confused on this one.
Posted by: CGW at February 15, 2006 8:56 AM
Thanks for the info, CGW. I wasn't too sure.
But like I said Karim, Jesus did not speak Arabic!!!
at February 15, 2006 12:58 PM
CGW, Question,
Why is it that the Muslims on this website never respond to the truth of Islam when it is exposed to them and the world? Especially when they try to attack the Bible and Chritianity? I'm just curious. I only respond with the truth about Islam, but can never get a clear rebuttal from the Muslims that post on this website.
Why is that?
Explain, please.
at February 15, 2006 1:05 PM
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