So, how long did the riots last after the phoney flushed koran story came out?

Posted by: Christine at February 18, 2006 5:36 PM

http://volokh.com/posts/1140247993.shtml

Chief Mufti of Russia Urges Violence Against
Gays:

The Independent (U.K.) reports on the cancellation of Russia's first planned gay pride parade; the city government refused to allow the parade, and the Independent cites outraged reactions from religious leaders as a major reason. The Russian Orthodox religious leaders are quoted as harshly condemning homosexuality, but the chief Muslim mufti goes further:

Earlier this week Chief Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin warned that Russia's Muslims would stage violent protests if the march went ahead. "If they come out on to the streets anyway they should be flogged. Any normal person would do that -- Muslims and Orthodox Christians alike ... [The protests] might be even more intense than protests abroad against those controversial cartoons."

Posted by: scribe10 at February 18, 2006 5:46 PM

All these people cannot be dying because of cartoons. Perhaps the final battle has begun.

Posted by: 1630r at February 18, 2006 5:48 PM

God how moronic can people be, as if the native christians have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with the cartoons in Denmark.The only thing to do such a mob is let the clubs do the talking.

Posted by: karimguy at February 18, 2006 5:55 PM

Early days so far as it's just starting to get warm. Well over half of these reports on this site are not even getting a mention on news broadcasts.

Posted by: stranger at February 18, 2006 5:59 PM

EXPAT: "At least theyre only killing their own so far. Maybe if they could be persuaded to step it up a little, this could work out to our advantage.
15 fewer religious nutcases to worry about. 1.3 billion to go."

From LittleGreenfootballs:

“Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters,” Ezeoke said. Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed."

Posted by: Cornelius at February 18, 2006 6:04 PM

12 cartoons equals about 36 fewer religious fanatics in the world to trouble anyone.

We'll have to print about 339,999,988 more cartoons, at this rate of return, to send them all to apoplectic paradise.

But a free press is a strong press.

And its ink is based on soy oil, not petroleum.

So, let's get the cartoons rolling off the printers.

And give a new meaning to "Let's Roll!"

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 18, 2006 6:05 PM

ExpatriateDK,

You applauded "15 fewer religious nutcases to worry about" after the headlines of 15 Christian Church's burned. I'm going to assume you are not claiming that "religious nutcases" equals Islam. I'm about sick and tired of the simple minded claiming "religious fanaticism" is the problem and not Islam.

In the past 30+ years (since the passage of Roe v. Wade), only 6 abortion doctors have been killed by "fanatic" Christians. However, simpleton Liberals will equate "Abortion killing evangelicals" with the violence in radical Islam. Ditto with many other comparisons of "religion" and radical Islam.

A hyper-religious born again Christian may bother some people with his witnessing. However, born again Christians are not a threat of physical violence to others. Quite the opposite. If anything, those new to Christianity and taking it seriously become much more loving and less violent. They take the commands of "love (even) your enemy" and "forgive" and "turn the other cheek" seriously. All the prescriptive commands in Christianity are clear about not taking up the sword for God. The Old Testament violence is descriptive not prescriptive for future conduct.

On the other hand, Muslims who take the religion too seriously are dangerous. Mohammed taught "slay the unbeliever wherever you find him" and other such prescriptive violence.

As a new, serious Christian feels obligated to tell others about the Gospel (yet, "wipe the dust from his sandles" if they reject it), a serious Muslim feels obligated to hate and kill infidels. The less serious Muslims have adapted to worldwide social norms.

Let's quit the "religious fanatic" rhetoric. This is like calling the rape victim a conspirator in "sexual violence". "Fanatic" Buddhists aren't slaughtering Muslims because of the giant ancient statues destroyed in Afganistan. "Fanatic" Christians aren't rampaging about Jesus' birthplace was ransacked by Muslims. Most non-Muslim religions fall in this boat. Christian "fanatics" are not going to kill guys that demean their religion, like Dan Brown and the painter of "Piss Christ" and "Dung Virgin". Let's recognize this fact and give credit where due.

We must fight the idea that we are fighting a "war on fanaticism" or "a war on religious fanaticism". We are fighting a War on Radical Islam or "A War on Islam (as a violent political ideology)". Don't help the weak-minded liberals equate all religions with Islam. Getting rid of religions like Christianity will do nothing to help this conflict. In fact, I would argue that Christianity is the best friend we all have.

Posted by: hello123 at February 18, 2006 6:09 PM

I created a digital art piece that shows the true intent of the deceivers of Islam.

Check it out:

http://www.deviantart.com/view/29251256/

A Religion of Peace? Yeah, right

They won't be happy until they've cut all of our throats in the name of Satan. Ooops, I mean 'Allah'

Burn in hell, fother muckers

Posted by: Burneweb at February 18, 2006 6:13 PM

How nice those peace loving muzzies take another opportunity to slaughter xians who had nothing what so ever to do with the cartoons.

How much longer is this cartoon crap going to go on? Do they think the longer they keep it up the more scared we're going to be? What's to be afraid of? Sure they're violent drooling idiots but BIG deal they aren't bullet proof.

Posted by: fireangel at February 18, 2006 6:16 PM

Ok, they claim to number 1,3 billion. Let's think about how many have died in conflicts around the world. Even with new births the numbers are going down not up. Let the idiots kill themselves off. Everytime they riot a nice islamic policeman kills a few more. Quicky draw more cartoons and drop them everywhere. We can end this in a week.

Ronin

Posted by: Ronin at February 18, 2006 6:23 PM

Yeah extpatriate please re-read the story and consider history and ideology if your mind is capable. I'd also like to add this, people think that we have a free press as others have eluded to above the so called free press has been dead for years, its only Denmark that grew balls recently, the yanks, the poms, and most of europe have bent the knee to these barabarians that they are afraid of them ... why? who knows.. A cartoon with mohammed with a bomb on his head is nothing... and a little radiculous... I ask our "Free" speech/media outlets to grow balls and criticise and condemn every Koranic scripture that is inciting their hatred and paranoia (Traits of the psychotic mohammed)upon all mankind. For example "seek out the infidel.. and put them to the sword"... there are multitutdes of Koranic doctrine that is absolutely about war and intolerence in the most perverse ways.... Come ON Press of West, start getting free its only just started. Our press has only picked on Christians because their not likely to kill you for it.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 18, 2006 6:46 PM

The BBC news website still hasn't mentioned this. It reported on people being killed in Libya but not this. Maybe this is because the people killed in Libya were Lunatic Muslims who were shot by the police. This is Lunatic Muslims killing innocent Christians. The second story continues to show that Muslims will happily kill anyone who isn't a Muslim. This shows Muslims in a bad light so the BBC won't report it until it can't be ignored any longer. We must only show Muslims as victims, not as perpetrators. The BBC is, however, reporting on the 10,000 nice, peaceful Muslims protesting in London for the third weekend running. WHY? WHY? WHY? The cartoons haven't even been Published in Britain. What are they protesting about? Maybe they think that if they keep protesting peacefully over and over again, we'll forget about the original protests which showed what Muslims really believe.

Posted by: calum at February 18, 2006 6:57 PM

The Muslims went on a murder spree a few years ago in Nigeria when someone suggested Mohammed might have wanted to marry a Miss World contestant. Kind of ironic, when it's more likely he would have been trawling orphanages looking for girls under 10 playing with dolls.

Posted by: Celsius at February 18, 2006 7:01 PM

All these cartoon rages going on around the world lead me to conclude that:

ISLAM IS THE LAST REMAINING DODO BIRD IN THE MIDST OF IT'S DYING THROES.

We just have to ensure it doesn't take us with it.

Posted by: William The Crusader at February 18, 2006 7:04 PM

The full article...FYI most of the dead were Christians including children:

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters," Ezeoke said. Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed."

The sooner all Muslims are expelled from non-Muslim countries the better.

---------------------

Cartoon Protests Leave 15 Dead in Nigeria By NJADVARA MUSA, Associated Press Writer
24 minutes ago

MAIDUGURI, Nigeria - Nigerian Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches on Saturday, killing at least 15 people in the deadliest confrontation yet in the whirlwind of Muslim anger over the drawings.

It was the first major protest to erupt over the issue in Africa's most populous nation. An Associated Press reporter saw mobs of Muslim protesters swarm through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods. One group threw a tire around a man, poured gas on him and set him ablaze.

In Libya, the parliament suspended the interior minister after at least 11 people died when his security forces attacked rioters who torched the Italian consulate in Benghazi.

Right-wing Italian Reforms Minister Roberto Calderoli resigned under pressure, accused of fueling the fury in Benghazi by wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with one of the offending cartoons, first published nearly five months ago in a Danish newspaper.

Danish church officials met with a top Muslim cleric in Cairo, meanwhile, but made no significant headway in defusing the conflict.

And in what has become a daily event, tens of thousands of Muslims protested — this time in Britain, Pakistan and Austria — to denounce the perceived insult.

But it was in Nigeria, where mutual suspicions between Christians and Muslims have led to thousands of deaths in recent years, that tensions boiled over into sectarian violence.

Thousands of rioters burned 15 churches in Maiduguri in a three-hour rampage before troops and police reinforcements restored order, Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi said. Iwendi said security forces arrested dozens of people in the city about 1,000 miles northeast of the capital, Lagos.

Chima Ezeoke, a Christian Maiduguri resident, said protesters attacked and looted shops owned by minority Christians, most of them with origins in the country's south.

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters," Ezeoke said. Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed.

Nigeria, with a population of more than 130 million, is roughly divided between a predominantly Muslim north and a mainly Christian south.

Thousands of people have died in this West African country since 2000 in religious violence fueled by the adoption of the strict Islamic legal code by a dozen states in the north, seen by most Christians as a move to impose religious hegemony on non-Muslims.

The Danish cartoons, including one showing Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban with an ignited fuse, have set off sometimes violent protests around the world.

After the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten printed the caricatures in September, other Western newspapers, mostly in Europe, followed suit, asserting their news value and the right to freedom of expression.

But Nigeria has been spared much of the violence seen elsewhere in the world, though lawmakers in the heavily Muslim state of Kano burned Danish and Norwegian flags and barred Danish companies from bidding on a major construction project. Kano lawmakers also called on the state's 5 million people to boycott Danish goods.

With Saturday's deaths, at least 45 people have been killed in protests across the Muslim world, according to a count by The Associated Press.

In the violence in Libya, Seif el-Islam Gadhafi, the son of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, said four of the 11 dead were believed to have been Egyptians or Palestinians.

"Setting the consulate on fire was a mistake, but using excessive force was the most tragic response," the younger Gadhafi said, explaining the suspension of Interior Minister Nasr al-Mabrouk.

Gadhafi expressed pride, however, that the demonstrators were behind Calderoli's resignation when "other Arab states refused or lagged behind in taking revenge for insults to their religion."

Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi blamed the riots in Libya, Italy's former colony, on "thoughtless action by our minister," the Italian news agency ANSA quoted him as saying.

Calderoli said he wore the shirt to show "solidarity to all those who were hit by the blind violence of religious fanaticism." He said he did not intend "to offend the Muslim religion nor to be the pretext for yesterday's violence."

In Cairo, Bishop Karsten Nissen, of Denmark's Evangelical Lutheran Church, met with Grand Imam Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi of al-Azhar University, the world's highest Sunni Muslim seat of learning.

Tantawi said the Danish prime minister must apologize for the drawings and further demanded that the world's religious leaders, including him and Pope Benedict XVI, should meet to write a law that "condemns insulting any religion, including the Holy Scriptures and the prophets." He said the United Nations should then impose the law on all countries.

In response, Nissen did not address the issue of a global law but said it was impossible for Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to apologize for what a newspaper had published.

"I have brought to his excellency (Tantawi) the apology of the newspaper, but our prime minister did not draw these cartoons. Our prime minister is not the editor of this newspaper. He cannot apologize for something he did not do," Nissen said.

So far the West and Islamic nations remain at loggerheads over fundamental, but conflicting cultural imperatives — the Western democratic assertion of a right to free speech and press freedom, versus the Islamic dictum against any representation of the Prophet Muhammad. Muslims say such depictions could encourage idolatry.

Posted by: Abby at February 18, 2006 7:20 PM

If our free press doesnt show the full story dont buy the paper, pressure our press people we can no longer bend the knee to the intolerant and try to cover up their barbarianism for them...
heres some links that shows you the depth of discrimination, the goaL global domination, psychological tortutres (moslems to their own wives and children)which in turn must create a neurotic body of people.

www.eretzyisroel.org/ ~jkatz/bosnia.html
www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/womenchildabuse/
www.persecution.org/ concern/2001/09/p1.html

Persecutions, executions, humiliations. Spread the word share the links this is a concern to the future of humanity as a whole all religions and cultures and groups must condemn Islam and help/urge the people to give up the religion. Because I am afraid that its true, fundamentalists who are more Koranically devout than the pseudowestern moslem we ARE AT WAR WITH.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 18, 2006 7:21 PM

Been hitting this site daily and finally logged in. More comment to follow but as for now.....
Get ready for the coming war with the "region of peace."
Lock and load.
Best regards to all.
ibrahim

Posted by: ibrahim224 at February 18, 2006 7:32 PM

Everyone laughs at clowns.
Apart from their viscious streak, I find all muslims rather funny, the way they dress, the stuff they beleive in, the way they carry on in public.
They belong in a circus.....I hope they're not all wiped out, I'd like to see some preserved for the amusement of future generations of christians.

Posted by: Buddy at February 18, 2006 7:38 PM

"One group threw a tire around a man, poured gas on him and set him ablaze."

"By their fruits ye shall know them" indeed...

Posted by: Caroline at February 18, 2006 7:44 PM

Here is an interesting cartoon published on the U of Toronto student paper website "The Strand"

http://media.www.thestrand.ca/media/paper404/news/2006/02/16/Editorial/To.Print.Or.Not.To.Print-1614362.shtml?sourcedomain=www.thestrand.ca&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

Canuck

"your grandchildren will be cartoonists"

Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at February 18, 2006 8:39 PM

Buddy
It's way past circus and fun. Now it's dead serious.
Read more. Get a grip.

Posted by: ovidius_naso at February 18, 2006 8:47 PM

The second story continues to show that Muslims will happily kill anyone who isn't a Muslim.

Calum hit it the nail.

It is all so clear that Muslims will use any excuse / cover to butcher any non-Muslim entity. muslims can;t help attacking non-Muslim entity as remember, thanks to Islam, Muslims have nothing to live for. Muslims have only to kill and die for Islam.

Any surprise some cartoons send Muslims on a blood-thirsty, murderous rampage?

By the way, 'Religion of Peace' is a smoke-screen to kill the gullible.

Posted by: Alert at February 18, 2006 9:10 PM

MAIDUGURI, Nigeria - Nigerian Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches on Saturday, killing at least 15 people in the deadliest confrontation yet in the whirlwind of Muslim anger over the drawings.

This is what Islam is planning on doing to America.

We have to awaken our federal government to the absolute threat that Islam is to the very survival of America and the civilized world and wage all out war with Islam across the globe.

Email your congressmen and senators.

The war with Islam is inevitable and it is fastly approaching.

Prepar, be armed be ready.

The Texican

Freedom. The only choice at any price.

Posted by: Texican at February 18, 2006 9:14 PM

Sheik canuck - I checked out your link. The Strand evidently thinks this looks like two prophets making out, and imagines it to be controversial on that score. But that's not what I see at all. From the tilt of the Muslim's head, it looks to me like Jesus is kissing him on the cheek. Huh - love your enemy - now THERE's a radical message if there ever was one! :-)

Posted by: Caroline at February 18, 2006 9:17 PM

This is why I'm glad that gay liberation happened when it did.

Can you imagine what would happen if gays began their fight for freedom for the first time NOW?

They wouldn't stand a chance, not just from christians but from muslims.

Posted by: Voltaire at February 18, 2006 9:17 PM

Voltaire: "They wouldn't stand a chance, not just from christians but from muslims."

I don't think "Queers for Palestine" has gotten the message yet.

Posted by: Caroline at February 18, 2006 9:30 PM

Every time I hear about a bunch of looney toon muslims dying - simply because they are acting nuts - I have to smile. A few less of these idiots we have to worry about.

Posted by: Cerebulon at February 18, 2006 9:56 PM

Gays dont need liberation they need to revisit their sexually abused pasts (mental and/or physical)and get some psychological healing. Its not just religion that is opposed to it, its also science, love does not equal sex, man can love a man , woman can love a woman , and live with and couple but sexually, no, the anus aint made for penetration (it doesnt lubricate the vagina does)and women doing sexually perverse things (as seen in your nearest porn)are not healthy for these things go against the natural order.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 18, 2006 10:06 PM

Im sure i'll attract a host of scorn , no offense intended to anyone, people make mistakes and do things to satisfy sexual urges that are perverted , even straight people... the issue is healing and forgiveness.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 18, 2006 10:09 PM

Im sure i'll attract a host of scorn , no offense intended to anyone, people make mistakes and do things to satisfy sexual urges that are perverted , even straight people... the issue is healing and forgiveness.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 18, 2006 10:10 PM

Cerebulon: "Every time I hear about a bunch of looney toon muslims dying - simply because they are acting nuts - I have to smile."

What part of

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters,"

don't you understand?

Posted by: Caroline at February 18, 2006 10:28 PM

Dear Robert and Readers,

I put this story in some perspective, along with coverage of the two main stories in Europe this weekend, the spreading bird flu menace and the firing of the Italian government official who dared to wear a Mohammed cartoon t-shirt.

There's also a statement from the cartoonist of the Bomb-Turban...

http://thomistic.blogspot.com/

All the best,
D. Ox

Posted by: Dumb Ox at February 18, 2006 10:52 PM

Some of the murdered were children. What must it be like to live one's life so utterly in thrall to passion?

"There is no fire like passion, there is no shark like hatred, there is no snare like folly, there is no torrent like greed."
-- Buddha

Posted by: surly at February 18, 2006 11:23 PM

With these additional riots of the Muslim masses, it proves that their religion or cult of death is the root cause of these actions. More people will realize thats its islam!

Posted by: Lulu at February 19, 2006 12:50 AM

Archimedes,
Good points, especially you seem to have a direction, which is not often found even on this site.
Yet, the subject is very complicated and some of your statements could be questioned.

I could not find that “the overall massage” in the bible is compassion and fairness “TO ALL PEOPLE”. Salvation is only through Christ and the rest is dammed.

I agree that political component is weak in the west, but it is a relatively new phenomenon. Even now, it is difficult to imaging a self proclaimed atheist, being elected president of US. “God bless America” is thrown everywhere and usually in poor taste.

I can not put Buddhism and Taoism on one side and Islam on the other. They are too different. To compare them one would need at least a few common points, essential to the doctrine. I could not find any. I even have a problem to call Buddhism a religion in a sense we understand the word “religion”. Would it be better, if Muslims become Buddhists? No doubt.
In the same time, there is a lot in common between Judaism, Christianity and Islam. That is to me a reason that criticism of Islam is often made from Jewish or Christian point of view. Without common ground, such criticism could not be possible.
From studding all three religions, I’ve got an impression that Islam is the logical extension of the first two. Without Judaism and Christianity Islam would not come to life.
As for the “modus operendy”, different from and more aggressive than J and C, it is easy to understand (though not to excuse by any means).
Judaism was a local religion of a small group. It was never intended to be a world religion until the coming of the messiah.
Christianity continued at first with the same attitude and Jesus forbade his disciples to preach to non Jews. Paul could see an opportunity to make Christianity a dominant religion in Rome and as a result the known world. Christianity did not have to be violent. There was no competition. Rome became Christian and the rest followed.
Islam, on the other hand, had a serious competition. By the time Islam was established, the Middle East was already Christian. The time for a peaceful prophet had gone. To spread or even to survive, Islam had to be violent.

Posted by: pong at February 19, 2006 1:27 AM

Hope is not lost yet,for Europe....
An extremely interesting article at
http://www.michaelsavage.com,the last one on the page.
The day the muslim barbarian hordes will be expelled from Europe,is fast approaching!

Posted by: adela at February 19, 2006 1:30 AM

The title of the article:
"Muslim immigrants will be expelled from Europe ,unless they reverse the perception of them as a social threath"
http://www.michaelsavage.com

Posted by: adela at February 19, 2006 1:32 AM

I could not find that “the overall massage” in the bible - posted by Pong, emphasis added

Wrong book: Not the "happy ending" we're working toward.

G'nite, folks! ;)

Posted by: Shinoliite at February 19, 2006 1:33 AM

The whole problem with muslims is their leadership
why does the west send money to these people? why dont the saudis take care of their own people and the
palestinians? It has gone too far!!
It must be the water or too much exposure to the sun.
If all the muslims stopped being crybabies and suicide bombers tomorrow would they go out and get jobs??
may pigs blood be transfused into your vanes you stinking muslim parasites

Posted by: general pershing at February 19, 2006 4:57 AM

hello 123

Terrific post.

Abby posted :

The sooner all Muslims are expelled from non-Muslim countries the better.

Mass expulsion or deportation is ethnic cleansing and is not justifiable by our moral standards. Besides it will lead to the immediate slaughter of all Christians in muslim countries, as this massacre in Nigeria clearly illustrates. That is why, over the last 4 years atleast, I have advocated an exchange of populations. It is also a UN accepted policy i.e., legal by international standards, when two or more polities are unable to live in peace. It needs hardly reminding that Islam, by its own admission, cannot live with anyone in peace.

Hard policy options but this is the most benign of them all and will avoid a civil global civil war.

Posted by: DP111 at February 19, 2006 6:49 AM

dear pong i honestly have no idea how you get the impression that Christ taught that the gospel should not be taught to the non-jewish, this is one of the key corner stones of the divison. "First to the jew (through the promise given through the seed of King David) then to the gentile" His message is for all people. That he died for the sins of all who believe in him. Islam rejects the notion of Christ being Saviour as do the Jews who hold more firmly to the promised land covenant,(with the exception of the messianic jews who affirm both of these two main covenants). These have not been 'natural' progression but divisons. Lets not forget in contrast to Christ, Mohammeds bread and butter came from being a general of war.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 19, 2006 7:26 AM

Futhermore pong, on the topic of non-Christian = damnation. It is dictated by Christ to those who believe in Him (Christians) "Do not judge lest you be judged" (in terms of damnation and hell fire, i interpret this to mean). So although you are well versed lets not make sweeping statements about peoples actions eg. a 'christian' telling you that you are going to hell for this is in contrast to this teaching. Christ even said to His followers 'there are people who honour me more than some of you' and i interpret this also as a reference to the humble heart of love that can dwell within many even those who do not know the Christ of scripture. As another of His teachings warns that there will be many who pretend to be Him or speak for Him when they infact do not.

Just a different perspective i hope you will appreciate.

Peace

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 19, 2006 7:38 AM

Pong,

You are absolutely full of it, and do not understand the Bible vs. Koran beyond an extremely superficial level. Nowhere did Jesus tell His followers not to spread the message to non-Jews. In fact, the Great commission (to spread the Gospel) is at the end of each Gospel. Despite the Liberal rhetoric to the contrary, Paul did not make up a new Christianity to take beyond the Jews. In Fact, Peter had the vision which ended the Kosher laws and in II Peter he calls Paul's letters "scripture". Sorry, but the message from Paul is seen in the Gospels for those who take the tiniest bit of time to read (vs. reading Liberal commentary)

Additionally, Islam is not a natural extension of Judaism and Christianity. The Christian Old Testament is the Hebrew Scripture. Nothing was changed when the Council of Nicea Canonized the Scripture. The Koran claims the Hebrew and Christian scripture are "true" (Surah 5:45-47 and 3:7), however, it distorts everything. The Koran is the ultimate contradiction: The Bible is true and Mohammed is the final revelation, yet Mohammed's accounts are completely different about everything.

In the Bible, the violence is descriptive: a certain people, place, time, and reason. Jesus Christ's commands, which are all about non-violence/forgiveness/redemption/love/etc. are the prescriptive commands for future actions. Yes, at times in history Christians have distorted the teachings. However, any rational person taking the time to read Jesus Christ cannot claim Christianity is violent or oppressive. For the first 300 years of Christianity, Christians died by the thousands yet would not take up the sword for God. There is not one prescriptive violent verse from Jesus Christ. When He said "I came to bring a sword" he clearly meant division in families (Luke uses the word division). Jesus then said, "for I have come to set a son at variance with his father

The Koran has 109 "prescriptive" violent verses like "slay the unbeliever wherever you find him". Unlike the Bible, the violent verses abrogate the few peaceful verses. Jesus' teachings are to be interpreted in the light of the later revelations of Mohammed. The first 1000 years of Islam was all about Jihad. You cannot say it was under threat from the beginning as an excuse. Christianity was a handful of followers under persecution from all quarters, yet would not use the sword for God.

Pong, take the time to "read" the actual Bible. You have not. Take the time to "read" the Koran and Hadiths. You have not. Reading commentaries, particularly biased commentaries, will not give you the proper knowledge. You must dig in to the scripture.

All religions are not the same. Religious "fanaticism" is not the problem. Islam is the problem. Get that through your head. It is a tough truth to accept, but it is the truth.

Posted by: hello123 at February 19, 2006 7:43 AM

hello 123
I just got one problem with your statement but on some grounds i do reject that a notion you may or may not be suggesting. If Christians did not take up the sword (for love) and defend against Islam during the Crusades and Ottomans reign, the world would look very different already today. Europe would not be a 'free west' let alone any post-Christian (notice the term) country. I sincerely believe or hope that people will realise the failings of the secular states and in the moment of deep trouble which will probably come upon us people will return to the faith on mass, (the trouble i refer to is prophesised in the book of Revelations (Amaggedon the war of East v's West). Which seems to be the direction the world is headed.

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 19, 2006 7:59 AM

"I sincerely believe or hope that people will realise the failings of the secular states and in the moment of deep trouble which will probably come upon us people will return to the faith on mass"

Perhaps this will happen CrusadoRob but things will get awful bad before they do.

I watched a show on TV tonight about the defence of Vienna in 1683.
When the Polish cavalry put in their charge and swept the Turks from the field it was great :)
Good on the Poles.

I found an interesting website containing many, many prophecies regarding a future war.

http://www.rexresearch.com/prophist/phf3eu~1.htm

Check out the prophecy of St. Francisco de Paola...there has been much talk about the love and compassion in Chrisianity but his prophecy is very much about God's vengeance being in store for the Mohammedans.

And the symbol of the victorous Christian army that will sweep the Mohammedans from Europe will be the Crucifix.
It seems the future will be just like Vienna 1683...when all seems lost, then a mraculous series of victories.

Also, many prophecies there point to the future saviour of Europe in the form of a devout Christian General who will restore the Fleur-de-lis, arising from the the most unlikely nation of....France!

Posted by: Mike_W at February 19, 2006 9:34 AM

Trading Muslims for Christians and other infidels in Muslim countries.
Hard policy options but this is the most benign of them all and will avoid a civil global civil war.
Posted by: DP111

This will not stop the inevitable war with Islam, but will allow America and other civilized nations to rid our countries of Muslims and take in Christinas and infidels from Muslim countries potentially improving the chance to save their lives in the coming war with Islam.

Prepare, be armed, be ready.

The Texican

Freedom. The only choice at any cost.

Posted by: Texican at February 19, 2006 11:37 AM

Some of the rhetoric on this site (thankfully just from a small minority of posters in the comments threads) is unbelievable, and almost dissuades me from even coming here in the first place despite the quality of the site as a whole.

"And the symbol of the victorous Christian army that will sweep the Mohammedans from Europe will be the Crucifix."

"The war with Islam is inevitable and it is fastly approaching. Prepar, be armed be ready."

I mean, do you people what irony is? Get a grip.

Posted by: elbowsunique at February 19, 2006 3:13 PM

Islam is terrorism.
Islam is Nazism
Islam is fascisism.
Islam Fucking Sucks.
We are beyong talking.

Posted by: templar at February 19, 2006 3:14 PM

Crusaderbob,

First, just a bit of background: I have served for over 15 years as an Infantry Officer with three hard tours of duty in the Middle East. I'm Ranger qualified and all that good stuff.

I do not believe Jesus' message was anti-military. He commanded "give unto (State Sovereign) that which is the (State Sovereign's)". Paul elaborated on this in the command (from God) to submit to secular authorities, including the power of the sword. The power of the sword to protect the state and enforce order in society (police power). Christ's point was that His followers should not take personal revenge or have personal hatred. The key is prevention of roots of bitterness and unforgiveness in individuals.

The power of the sword in the hands of the state is to defend the state from agression. Jesus, however, taught that the sword is not to be used in God's name. God is powerful enough to take care of eternal justice. He doesn't need our help in this area. The Christian teaching is that we are to spread the Gospel, but allow freedom for individuals to accept the Gospel. God is loving, and those who choose to reject him will be separated from Him after death. God sent His Son to die for the sins of those who would believe in Him. If one chooses to reject Christ as Lord, they will face God without atonement. Therefore, Christians are to love even their enemies (even while serving in the military to protect the state, as I have). This does not mean being cowardly and pacifistic. Quite the opposite. The most courageous men in Western history have also been faithful Christians and loving men.

In Islam, Allah needs his followers to get his revenge. Hatred, revenge, etc. are not only prohibited (as in Christianity), but are a duty against unbelievers. This is why the society is a failure. It is all about the past: Hate, guilt, unforgiveness, etc. Christianity is all about the future: forgiveness, no hate, etc.

Whether or not one is a Christian, if they are unbiased they can see the major difference between Christianiy and Islam. One makes one a loving, forward looking person. The other makes one a guilt-ridden (reason why men will become suicide murderers to "earn" paradise), hateful, and backward looking.

Random thoughts.

Posted by: hello123 at February 19, 2006 3:51 PM

elbowsunique,

I am simply pointing out what St. Francisco de Paola prophecied.
Given the deteriorating situation regarding Islam in Europe I found his prophecy striking.
In the face of rampant, militant Islam I sometimes wonder if the West has any politically acceptable viable options.
In the future, if Islam lives up to it's promise, drastic times might well call for drastic action.

Yes, I am aware of the meaning of irony and if St. Francisco de Paola's prophecy is true then it is indeed ironic that violent Islam will end that way....ie violently.

Posted by: Mike_W at February 19, 2006 4:03 PM

The Texican posted: Prepare, be armed, be ready.

Texican, I would like to be, but in Britain the law abiding have been completely disarmed. Only outlaws are fully armed - latest stuff as well.

Posted by: DP111 at February 19, 2006 5:52 PM

elbowsunique

You need to expand a bit more on your points. It is not enough to write "Get a grip". You will find that you will get a fair hearing.

Look forward to your posts.

Posted by: DP111 at February 19, 2006 5:59 PM

hello 123: I think you misread my message, i think on many points we are in agreement, except your faith in secularism is about all we disagree on. Oh and you forgot the word ceasar from your openning quote...some people might not know what your talking about...)on the point of giving to the state i believe it is more of taxes but yeah thats open to interpretation, for here is an example, just imagine your state in 50years due to abortion v's moslem birth rate plus add in other factors like the growth and 'coolness' of homosexuality, at this point your democratic state becomes Moslem majority, and you are expected to fight jihad in the states army against infidels or die would that be an honourable and loving service to the fellowship? (I also refer here to the vienna doco which was awesome Mike_W's post) Christians under the conquered Ottomans were expected to do just that!

elbowsunique: you sound like you may be in denial, this comes from a feeling of being threatenned, i believe that there are many people on this site who have good hearts are frustrated about sitting on their thumbs while they hear about the jihadist atrocities that grow daily, well the non-censored ones that make it through to us anyway, thanks to sites like this, (due to the fact our media and governments tails are stuck firmly between their secular legs.)

sincerely

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 19, 2006 6:02 PM

Oh texican, on the issue of population swapping muslims for the non-muslims, the greeks did this early last century when they had the war with turkey, it actually worked out very good for both sides. And i can guarantee you the non-moslems in Sudan/Palestine/Nigeria/Saudi Arabia + Iran +Pakistan (If there are any non-moslems left there, and just to name but a couple of example nations) i am sure they would just love to get out...poor souls. Say a prayer for these people if you are that way inclined.
peace

Posted by: CrusadoRob at February 19, 2006 6:13 PM

The Texican posted: Prepare, be armed, be ready.
Texican, I would like to be, but in Britain the law abiding have been completely disarmed. Only outlaws are fully armed - latest stuff as well.
Posted by: DP111

DP111, one of the great patriots once stated “When laws prevent freedom, then you have to break those laws to have freedom.”.

You can bank on it that the Muslims in England have weapons.

If the choice is freedom or not being able to defend yourself, even law abiding people can be forced into becoming armed outlaws.

If you become an outlaw, first acquire a pair of 12 gauge automatic shotguns. Shorten the barrel on one so it covers a larger area when fired. You do not have to be a good shoot to cause lots of damage with a shotgun.

God and America is with you and England.

The Texican.

Prepare, be armed be ready.

Freedom. The only choice at any cost.

Posted by: Texican at February 19, 2006 7:21 PM

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm

Posted by: patriot at February 19, 2006 11:27 PM