No comments on David Irvings case?

What you all think, was the sentence justified ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm

Posted by: Eurobuddy at February 21, 2006 7:51 AM

Eurobuddy:

Last night CBC (Canadian public) Radio interviewed Dr. Deborah Lipsett on Irving's conviction and sentence. Lipsett (I may have the surname wrong) is the American professor who successfully defended herself in a UK court against a libel action launched by Irving vis a vis his "scholarship" on the Holocaust by proving that he had completely manipulated evidence.

While Lipsett said she is not in favour of laws against Holocaust denial or the significant sentence, she did allow that the Austrian courts have two things to deal with -- Austria's participation in the Holocaust and fears of resurgent anti-Semitism, and also that Irving did two things -- deliberately dare the Austrian authorities to charge him and secondly, the phony and insincere "recanting" of his beliefs that he offered in defence.

If you are interested in exactly what she had to say, I suggest you check the CBC's website for any transcript of last night's "As It Happens".

Posted by: waterdragon52 at February 21, 2006 8:15 AM

I've already complained to both BBC & Sky for suggesting a double-standard in prosecuting David Irving, but not Jyllands Posten. Idiots.

Irving was specifically charged for comments made in a speech to Austrian neonazis.

The issue from an Austrian point of view was one of national dignity and responsibility unique to that corner of Europe. We can afford to be more 'tolerant' of Nazis in say, Britain, as we don't share quite the same historical culpability or associated danger of resurgence.

Posted by: Animus Fox at February 21, 2006 8:18 AM

Amahdi no-nads seems to be in denial of huge tracts of history. I'd like to see him taken to task by anyone even mildly more conversant in ME studies...

Posted by: Animus Fox at February 21, 2006 8:21 AM

“Don’t worry about economic problems, because God’s treasures are endless and if you work for Him, He will meet your needs from where you had not foreseen”
-- from the article above

I agree. The "Palestinians" -- the local Arabs, that is, who are to be carefully distinguished from the other local Arabs, those within Israel as temporarily defined by the 1949 armistice lines (the Arab states refused to recognize those armistice lines as permanent borders -- so why should Israel be asked to do so at this point?), who are called "Israeli Arabs" -- should put their faith in "God's treasures."

But what are "God's treasures"? For Muslims, the entire world belongs to Islam. The Infidels have no permanent claim to possession of anything -- not land, not goods, not "their women." If they happen to possess a life estate -- well, lives can be shortened. Infidels can be robbed and looted by Muslims, for what Infidels call "robbery" and "looting" is merely helping yourself, in lands that do not yet have the Shari'a, to the "jizyah" that is properly due (see, in Bruce Bawer's "While Europe Slept," the Norwegian imam who preaches this quite logical Gospel According to Islam). Perhaps what Ahmadinejad meant was that "God's treasures" include the money that Israel, and the Europeans, and the Americans, should all be forking over -- for the Jizyah can be seen as one of "God's treasures" to which Muslims have a right. And how maddening it is to see Infidels dare to suggest that they have no duty to supply the Jizyah of continued foreign aid. And the Israelis, who seem to think they do not have a duty to supply those who have declared their intention to destroy Israel with money, and employment, and free medical care (my god -- Western reporters should just once report on the crowds Arabs filling the charity wards at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem, and in other hospitals all over Israel).

There is yet another interporetation of "God's treasures." It is that of the oil money. For as soon as the OPEC revenues quadrupled, the Saudis and other Muslim beneficiaries of this accident of geology, discovered by Infidels, produced for years by Infidels, and for which a use had been found only in the Infidel lands, began to see that oil wealth as a direct gift from Allah to the Muslims and especially to the Arabs, "the best of people." A politico-theological interpretation was given to this manna from heaven to be found underground. So perhaps Ahmadinejad is referring to the oil wealth which, as good Muslims, I am sure he is quite ready to share with the "Palestinian" Arabs.

Or is he?

Posted by: Hugh at February 21, 2006 9:09 AM

I am quite sure Ahmadinejad will share a token amount of oil wealth with the Palestinians, much as Hugo Chavez distributed oil to liberal cities in the US. This means nothing and everything at once: nothing in that the net will be negligible, everything in that Ahmadinejad will shore up support for his unpopular regime by stoking xenophobic fires.

Unpopular? you may ask. Wasn't it just three years ago that many people bristled at Iran being lumped in the "Axis of Evil"? It was a democratizing nation under Khatami on its way to throwing off the theocracy. Or so the belief went. I must confess, I still share that belief, and think Ahmadinejad is a puppet of the theocracy, which is playing an end game to hold onto power as long as possible. I believe reform will come in Iran, especially if Iraq begins to reform.

Optimistic then? Not really. Nukes and end games are a poor combination :-(

Posted by: alaric7 at February 21, 2006 10:22 AM

SORRY ABOUT LENGTH BUT WHEN I READ THIS I HAD TO CUT AND PASTE IT. SHOULD BE SHOWN TO ALL WHO APPEASE.

'Whoever insults the one true Church deserves to be killed.' (News report)
David Aaronovitch

“EUROPE MUST LEARN to live in and with the world, not to dominate it, nor to assume it is superior or more virtuous. Any continent that has inflicted such brutality on the world over a period of 200 years has not too much to be proud of, and much to be modest and humble about.” Martin Jacques, The Guardian, on the cartoons row.
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe . . .

From a Reuters report, Rome, some time around now

The Vatican has protested in “the strongest possible terms” against the publication in paperback of Dan Brown’s bestselling novel, The Da Vinci Code. Cardinal Loopi, of the Office of the Defence of the Faith, condemned the book for defaming Catholicism and, in its suggestion that Jesus Christ was married, of heresy. “We demand that the book be destroyed and that the author be punished,” said Loopi, “otherwise we cannot be held responsible for how Catholics throughout the world may react.”

Excerpt from a speech by Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor

Merkel: “The affront to the honour of the one true Church is in fact an affront to the worship of God, and to the seeking of truth and justice, and an affront to all the prophets of God. Obviously, all those who harm the honour of the one true Church . . .”

Crowd: “Death to Dan Brown.

Death to Dan Brown.

Death to Dan Brown.

Death to Dan Brown.”

From the Paris correspondent of al-Jazeera

A Lyons priest today offered half a million euros and a top-of-the-line Toyota as a reward to anyone who killed Dan Brown or any executive of the Da Vinci Code publishers, Jonathan Cape. Speaking to a 1,000-strong crowd gathered after Mass outside the church of St Marie-la-Vierge, Fr Jules Monbiot announced that the offer was “a unanimous decision by all bishops that whoever insults the one true Church deserves to be killed, and whoever will take this insulting man to his end will get this prize”.

News stories in al-Ahram (Cairo)

Bookseller shot dead in Poland, by teenager shouting: “For God, and the Pope!”

Ten killed in Lisbon Dan Brown riots, when police opened fire on mob ransacking the Canadian Embassy. “We thought he was Canadian,” says riot leader.

Violence in northwest London as Jews go on rampage against Holocaust denial in Muslim countries. Kebab restaurants and curry houses ablaze from the Finchley Road to Edgware.

Iranian and Syrian embassies and consulates attacked in 20 cities worldwide. Iranian Embassy destroyed in Canberra. Australian Government describes violence as “regrettable, but understandable”.

Speech by Angela Merkel, about the convening of an international conference in Berlin to “investigate” Islam

“We propose the following to the Muslims: if you are not lying, allow a group of neutral, honest researchers to come to Mecca, and to talk to people, examine documents and let people know the findings of their research about the Muhammad myth. You have even prevented your own scholars from researching this issue. They are allowed to study anything except for the Muhammad myth. Are these not medieval methods?”

Reuters report from Berlin

“German Chancellor Angela Merkel today caused alarm in diplomatic circles when she called for the Netherlands to be ‘wiped from the face of the earth’.” She went on, “The establishment of the Dutch regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Catholic world.”

Summary of an article in French government newspaper, Le Monde

The Netherlands may have created the avian flu virus in order to damage the economies of Europe, and cleverly planted it first in the Far East to divert attention away from the real plan.

Angela Merkel on German attempts to produce a nuclear weapon

“Those who oppose us should be grateful that our people has acted nobly towards you so far, and has been patient. We want to remain patient. Don’t make us lose our patience. The peoples have awakened. The world of Christendom has awakened. Do not make us reconsider our policies.”

Reuters reports from Munich

Fr Rudiger Schlitz, the assistant to the head of the Catholic Church in Germany, has said that it is doctrinally permissible for nuclear weapons to be used. “When the entire world is armed with nuclear weapons, it is permissible to use these weapons as a counter-measure. According to church law, only the goal is important . . .”

Al-Jazeera News. Mark Seddon reporting . . .

These are the pictures of Our Lady’s Church in Shoreham, following the explosion in which 31 parishioners died, along with the suicide bomber, who is believed to belong to the majority Anglican community. This is the fourth such bomb attack on a Catholic church in the last two years.

Statement from Human Rights Watch . . .

Calling on the Italian authorities to order an immediate, independent investigation into the violent suppression of an apparently peaceful demonstration by Seventh Day Adventists in Naples on February 13, 2005. Hundreds of demonstrators, including women and children, were injured when police and armed militia from the Catholic Enforcement League broke up the protest, apparently using excessive force, and as many as 1,200 protesters are believed to have been arrested. A year later 200 of those detained are still being held without trial.

Report from al Quds-al-Arabi

Finland. Mr X, a local celebrity and Muslim, was exhumed after his funeral and given a Christian burial, despite his widow’s objection that he had not been to Church since he was a child, and had converted to Islam at the age of 15. A church court had considered the case following a complaint from a local Lutheran preacher, and ruled that Mr X should be treated as a Christian.

Excerpts from Amnesty International Report for 2006

In Newcastle, England, a special court sentenced a Gateshead woman to be burnt to death for witchcraft. Betty Spencer, 53, was immolated in front of a crowd that had gathered in the Newcastle United football stadium. It was the sixth such execution since the year 2000.

In Idaho a teacher was killed and three of his pupils badly injured when militia members of the “Party of Christ”, who object to girls being educated on the same premises as boys, fired into a packed schoolroom.

And finally, the good news . . .

From hiding, somewhere in Pakistan, Dan Brown apologises to the Judaeo-Christian world for the publication of The Da Vinci Code, promises to donate the proceeds from all his books to any charity nominated for the purpose by Opus Dei and undertakes to become a monk in a silent order at a monastery atop a high mountain in the Apennines.

Posted by: Truth4u at February 21, 2006 10:23 AM

I think Ahmadinejad just means he'd like to turn the entire area into a nature reserve, Chernobyl style.

---

As to those who do not understand the holocaust denial laws -- Iran is a perfect example as to why we have them.

They are there because it is an admission that some people are simply too stupid to be trusted to work out that fascism is dangerous. Irving's writing has not only netted him a lot of money (which he lost in the libel case...) but also, it provided endless ammunition for the brainless brigade, wanting old Adolf back. And I think unless you're German, Austrian or Swiss, it is a bit hard to understand why this is such a problem.

Then again, you all understand why Hamza is a problem for a modern society, so, perhaps the similiarities help. Our indigenous, genuine nazis(tm) are somewhat more sinister and serious than the British and American wanna-be jokers, think 'jihadi' with brain, education and survival instinct, and you're getting close.

So yeah, gagging them is not the best result, but, short of shooting them when they appear in public to spout their nonsense, this is the next best thing.

If anyone has a better solution that is workable, let me know.

Imli

Ps.: I'm wondering why it is that people assume that anything can ever be perfect. Any philosophical system has weak points that need 'hacks' in order to make them work, but, they do not invalidate the overall system itself.

Compare:
In 1931 Kurt Gödel (or `Goedel' but not `Godel') used elementary arithmetics to build a universal programming language for encoding arbitrary proofs, given an arbitrary enumerable set of axioms. He went on to construct self-referential formal statements that claim their own unprovability, to demonstrate that formal systems such as traditional mathematics are either flawed in a certain sense or contain unprovable but true statements
Source: http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/goedel.html

Posted by: Imli at February 21, 2006 10:49 AM

Ahmadinejad is a dangerous maniac to be sure, but it is actually good news when we hear him saying Allah will provide. It means no one is providing. This proves that the aid cutoff from America, and the suicide money Israel has lately stopped providing, has made a difference. The more Jihadis are expecting Allah to fill in the blanks, the more blanks there will be. If God exists, we can safely assume the likes of Ahmadinejad and Hamas are currying no favor.

Quijybo

Posted by: Quijybo at February 21, 2006 11:06 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/nigeria_sectarian_violence

LAGOS, Nigeria - Christian mobs rampaged through a southern Nigerian city Tuesday, burning
mosques and killing several people in an outbreak of anti-Muslim violence that followed deadly protests against caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad over the weekend.

Residents and witnesses in the southern, predominantly Christian city of Onitsha said several Muslims with origins in the north were beaten to death by mobs which also burned two mosques there.

"The mosque at the main market has been burnt and I've counted at least six dead bodies on the
streets," Izzy Uzor, an Onitsha resident and businessman, told The Associated Press by
telephone. "The whole town is in a frenzy and people are running in all directions."

===I'm sure the xians in north Nigeria will be grateful for their efforts....sarcasm off.

Posted by: fireangel at February 21, 2006 11:11 AM

If Mahmoud visits Austria, can they jail him for Holocaust denial?

Now, I've always taken the position that the Nazis showed us their intentions, and that anyone professing this cult again should simply be shot.

But, without a death penalty, life imprisonment, to sequester potentially dangerous and avowed lunatics, seems reasonable, in Europe at least.

Why let them regroup once you got the message?

"Suicide may be painless" as the song went, but its too messy when it comes to something the size of Civilization.

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 21, 2006 11:25 AM

FireAngel

I think the "backlash" is starting. I think you will be reading more articles like this in the next few weeks.

Posted by: ShortBoard Surfer at February 21, 2006 1:14 PM

Surfer, I'm sure you're right and oh how I wish you weren't. I doubt the back lash will confine itself to Nigeria.

+++“Don’t worry about economic problems, because God’s treasures are endless and if you work for Him, He will meet your needs from where you had not foreseen”, Ahmadinejad told the Hamas delegation led by the group’s political bureau chief Khalid Mash’al.

I think the thug in chief has been taking bullshit lessons from Benny Hinn.

Posted by: fireangel at February 21, 2006 2:00 PM

Nothing elegant what I am about to write, but
it is fitting.....as each week goes by it seems
Ahmadinejad is begging to get his ass nuked!!!

Posted by: learjet0450 at February 21, 2006 7:04 PM

Now the elegant part: The Gog-Magog War was Prophesized in the Bible. Persia and Russia invade Israel. Want to know the outcome? It was
also Prophesized but you can research it with
"Google"

Posted by: learjet0450 at February 21, 2006 7:05 PM