"Some Shiites lashed out at the United States as partly to blame."

Well, actually, the Shiites are totally right this time. The war in Iraq has been one big mistake. The idea you can bring democracy in a Muslim country (even by force) is folly. Islam and democracy don't mix, since they are two opposite political systems. And that is exactly why it is a lethal mistake of the Bush administration to think they could succeed in mixing those two systems.

Posted by: Nordthiad at February 23, 2006 3:32 AM

Hugh's prescription to promote this internicine fighting as a way of diverting their attention away from infidels now has a fighting chance, in a manner of speaking, despite the best efforts of the Administration to prevent exactly that. Now that we've figured that nothing pisses them off more, can some enterprizing Sunnite do similar stuff to the sites at Najaf and Karbala?

And then let all the Shittes hit the fan.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 23, 2006 3:56 AM

Also, from the same geniuses who thought that a Shia Iraq would be an inspiration for the Sunni Arab world, came the inspiration that Khalilzad, who could pull off what he pulled off in Afghanistan being a (Sunni) Pashtoon, would therefore be able to pull off the same thing in (Shia) Iraq, despite being neither Arab nor Kurd nor Shia.

Hint, hint. It's one thing for him to threaten fellow Afghans, and get Ismail Khan removed from Amir ul Herat. It's another thing for him to threaten Arab Shias, of which he is neither.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at February 23, 2006 4:01 AM

Is civil war in Iraq such a bad thing strategically?

It frees our armies for dealing with Iran if we can pull them out now.

Ok, there is the argument that it'll get real anarchistic, but eh, it already is, so what is the difference.

And whilst they are busy killing each other, perhaps the rest of the world gets a respite.

Another thing is that muslims themselves will eventually get an aversion against jihad and bombs of all kinds when they happen close to home -- see Jordan, not many supporters of jihad there anymore.

Posted by: Imli at February 23, 2006 4:24 AM

Not too long ago, I read an article at A Daily Briefing on Iran, on a meeting of some sort in Iran, that included statements that essentially said, a number of incidents would/will take place before something major happens. The cartoon incident was looked at as one of them.

Does anybody else here remember this article? I will continue to look for it, but I can't find it at the moment.

I would not be surprised if Iran had their grimy hands on this and that it was a part of their plan.

Posted by: Christine at February 23, 2006 4:47 AM

Christine,

You just said a mouthful. The hair on the back of my neck is standing up.

This goes to show that no matter who gets killed, no matter what is lost, these people are coming and they won't stop unless we stop them.

Let's stop them. I like Hugh's idea from another thread last night to go after the Middle Eastern tax evaders in our respective countries that use our laws to make their money and not pay their fair share like the rest of us. We all need to become Elliot Ness and go after the very real Al Capones in our midst. I'm going to start this week by changing gas stations to the good old boy Americans three miles away rather than the Muslim's station right down the street.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at February 23, 2006 5:53 AM

Isabella;

You have it right. Vote/fight with your wallet.

A friend of mine had a problem with his car and couldn't get a signal on his cell phone. He went into a convenience store and the clerk, who was minimally cordial when he thought my friend was there to spend, got surly, loud, and nasty when he asked to use his phone, screaming, yes screaming, "Did I cause your problem?"

I explained to my friend the concept of Dar al Harb, the prohibitions against aiding or befriending infidels, etc.

In another instance, my same friend went into a Dunkin Donuts shop, the one on Willow Grove Rd. in Stony Point, NY, and found the staff giggling over beheading videos on a laptop. They slammed thge laptop shut but he saw enough to launch a blistering tirade. He can be very inappropriate when he needs to.

Needless to say, these 2 places are added to our list of no-go zones.

Additionally, my friend is coming around nicely. He now gets 15 minute info-bursts from me when we do our weekly hikes.

Posted by: t-ham at February 23, 2006 6:33 AM

The American people should pull their troops out and let these guys kill one another. Why should any more innocent American soldiers pay for this nonsense?

PJ

Posted by: PJ at February 23, 2006 7:00 AM

I always wondered "Why should I care how many muslims Saddam kills"? Obviously the muslims themselves did not care how many. They still don't. They only care about how many infidels, other muslims, etc they can kill.

Posted by: JanuaryMan at February 23, 2006 7:49 AM

Finally something useful is coming out of the Iraq war. Muslims should be encouraged, as much as possible, to keep themselves busy fighting other Muslims.

Remember how peaceful the rest of the world was when Iran and Iraq were at war?

Posted by: restitutor orbis at February 23, 2006 7:54 AM

How many monuments in the West need to be restored? How many non-Muslim monuments in the East need to be restored? Have the US and Britain pledged any money to the reconstruction of the Bamyan Budhas?

Why is it that whenever the spoiled child of islam makes a scene and breaks a toy, she gets a new one (usually paid for by America and the EU)?

There is HUNGER in America and there is HUNGER in the EU. There are people that would starve to death without food stamps and help from charities, and yet the idiots than run our fates seem keen to waste money in stupidities like this one that Robert Spencer addressed.

America: do you want to "waste" money? Build a monument (but a real monument, one that everyone that arrives in NY will notice) to remember the 3000 that were butchered on the day that changed the world.

Britain, how about you?

It is at times like these that I THANK GOD that my country is poor. We have medieval castles and monasteries falling apart because there's no money. Any idiot that would even suggest to donate money to repair a mosque ceiling half a world away, would be ridiculed ad nauseam.

Simple reasoning: does your country have poor people and buildings that need funding? If so, no money to pamper pro-terrorist scum that presently wants you dead and that will insult you after receiving your tribute payment.

I'm with Hugh on this one: NO MORE JYZIA!

Posted by: cruzado at February 23, 2006 8:35 AM

Hell, Robert, the Iranians won't even rebuild the homes of their own earthquake-victim citizens in Bam and blame it on the failure of the West to make good on pledges.

The only external causes the Iranians will finance are jihad-related, like supporting Hezbullah, but then who knows that Iran won't see it in their interest to engratiate themselves with as many Shia Iraqis as possible by helping to rebuild the Shrine.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at February 23, 2006 8:48 AM

Is there any way that we can help the violence to spread to iran and syria?

Posted by: restitutor orbis at February 23, 2006 9:10 AM

Hello all,

So Hugh...time to pop the champagne cork..or perhaps the tuborg is more appropriate.

Is some Infidel gonna draw some cartoon about how funny this incident is ....or are you gonna wait until tomorrow's friday prayers and the inevitable bloodbath afterwards.

Answers on a post card please!

Posted by: Naseem at February 23, 2006 9:23 AM

I fear our boys will be caught in the middle trying to stop this madness with not enough troops. Do you really think Bush will order them home, and let the country descend into chaos?

And BTW Naseem, it's up to the Muslims (who are in charge of Iraq) whether or not there is a bloodbath. Remember, it's THEIR country, with a duly elected government. Self restraint will keep them their country, indulging in a frenzy of violence will lose it.

Of course, I know that goes against the established order that nothing is a Muslim's fault or responsibility, ever.

Posted by: treehugger at February 23, 2006 9:51 AM

PJ

I am in total agreement with you.

I was and remain convinced it was a good move to get rid of Sadman. Both from a national security (of many free nations)and humanitarian viewpoint.

I was never really convinced about the wisdom of what Hugh refers to as the light unto the muslim nations project.

However, in some ways I admire the administration for being optimistic (yes, some may say stupid) enough to give it a try. It was always going to be a difficult and bloody job for the magnificent service men and women of the U.S. armed forces.

But enough is enough. No more young U.S. men and women should die for these pieces of shit.

And yes, while it may be an easy thing for me to say sitting in my lounge room thousands of miles away in safety, but if the islamic sheep that live in Iraq do not care enough to realise that U.S. forces are trying to help them, and that they themselves ought actually get off their asses and try to help themselves, then stuff them. Leave them all to their own devices.

At what cost American lives, when is it worth it?

To remove the maniac Sadman? In my opinion yes.

To try to bring democracy, even a feeble islamic form of it to Iraq? I honestly don't know.

To be involved in a civil war in Iraq. In my opinion no.

Posted by: Anthony at February 23, 2006 9:58 AM

Anthony, I appreciate what you are saying because you are obviously a decent and civilized person who would like to see nothing more than dictatorships toppled and people freed under a democracy, however the fact remains that once you topple a madman like Sadaam, thousands more will rise up to take his place.

If one looks at the last 50 years of Iraqi history, one after another took the position of leader of Iraq and they were either killed or chased out. They are an ungovernable people and usually in a situation like that, a dictator will take that place and be brutal, knowing that if he is intimidating, then most people will think twice before killing him off or putting him out of office, and that's just what Sadaam was doing and why he was so brutal.

PJ

Posted by: PJ at February 23, 2006 10:11 AM

PJ,

Yes, I suppose you are right. It is not possible to help everybody all the time, and sometimes even trying can make things worse.

With some notable exceptions - including the American revolution - most revolutions spawn tyranny far worse than that they were designed to end.

Perhaps I am being as gullible and stupid as those whom I despise.

Posted by: Anthony at February 23, 2006 10:25 AM

Naseem, unlike the Muslims who threw candy to children and danced in the streets on 9-11 when America was attacked, nobody in America (to my knowledge) celebrated the destruction of that mosque and the death of the innocent in it. YOu need to realize the distinction between making fun of public figures, even religious ones, and celebrating death. Even in WWII, the US did not celebrate the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the firebombing of Tokyo. We celebrated the end of the war.

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at February 23, 2006 11:47 AM

The more I see of Naseem's postings, the more I have to wonder WHO is posting- Naseem, or her husband?

She made/had a lot more sense up until about a month ago.

Posted by: Gary at February 23, 2006 11:52 AM

Treehugger,

I know what you are saying but the "it's their country with elected government" is really up in the air for the moment.

I would like to make a point though.

As an Ahmadi I am no real fan of the sunni or shia...I've said as much before. But I DO think that it is a crying shame that a 1100 year old monument is destroyed by crass muslim thugs themselves. It is the decent humane thing to do to leave it alone...and in this instance it is the infidel who has left it untouched (despite all the bombing they did)...so here's

a hat-tip to the infidel.

All muslims should hold their head in shame to once again let the infidel have the upper hand and to leave the infidel to wonder at the depravity and depth of vile and disgusting characteristics of some f**king sub human beings who have the sole temerity to associate and align themselves with the name of Islam.

They say that do it in the name of Islam...no those f*cking terrorists... Don't...period.

Dipping these fu*kers in deep *white* hot pig fat in deepest hell with christians reading extracts from the Bible is not good enough for them.

THIS TIME I felt that I have been let down by Allah (no SWT for him this time!!!!!!!!!).

Posted by: Naseem at February 23, 2006 12:14 PM

Naseem,

You're absolutely right about the Christians reading from the bible as a form of torture for Muslims. Hearing items like the Beatitudes preached by the "blessed prophet Issa" (sarc)must be extremely painful (particularly numbers five and seven)!

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall possess the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Posted by: treehugger at February 23, 2006 12:27 PM

Isabellathecrusader, yes! fight with your wallet, I now buy many Danish products and boycott all the Muslim stores in New York.

I will try to get my neighbors to do the same.

Posted by: El Cid at February 23, 2006 1:52 PM

Naseem, I'm an "infidel" by Muslim standards, but I agree it's a shame an 1100 year old monument and all those lives were destroyed for nothing. The building can be rebuilt, the lives cannot. I guess that now you know how we felt when those Buddahs in Afghanistan were destroyed. Sensless loss. Nobody really wins a war.
Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

And HJohn 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Posted by: Bohemond_1069 at February 23, 2006 1:55 PM

Now will you neanderthals hand over Zaquari? He blew up your mosque...The Coalition protected it and Muslims blew it up. The blame game dies on the spot. But I thought Islam was a peaceful religion that held prayer locations sacred??
Guess that notion is down the perverbial crapper now.

Posted by: Siciliano at February 23, 2006 1:58 PM

These morons STILL haven't figured out it makes little real difference WHO ends up in charge in Iraq (or anywhere else in Islamia). Everybody loses with Islam anyway. The Shia and Sunni will STILL be killing each other. One form of homicidal rule over Iraq will receive the Islamic 'Seal of Approval' over all the others. And people will STILL be slaughtered like chickens and cows. OH HAPPY DAY!!!!!!! (Whoever "wins" this war).

Posted by: pythagoras at February 23, 2006 2:32 PM

Placing their religious faith in a mere building?

Isn't that the dreaded lure toward graven images? The thing that Islamic iconclasm is supposed to remedy? And that led to the rioting worldwide against the Danish cartoonists for showing them an image of Mohammad (which they might, irrationally, have been tried to "worship")?

Muslims should be happy that a temptation to idolatry was removed.

A gold dome is a pagan thing.

A structure (like the "prophet's house" in Saudi Arabia that was bulldozed in the 1970's) is a mere man-made spiderweb to ensnare the faithful and keep them from the stark and imageless purity of the true faith of Islam.

Mosques should all be destroyed to prevent this religion's followers from falling into such a Venus flytraps of idolatry.

And Korans, as mere representations of the illiterate "prophets" spoken words, should go next. The Koran should be memorized and passed on that way, and no other way.

Books are infidel inventions used to rot the pristine spark of the Muslim memory.

Then clothes should go, since they interfere with Allah's weather.

Let's get serious, Islam.

You should be flat on your backs, endlessly repeating the "Recitation" to one another, with you mouths open, waiting for Allah to drop rain and an errant berry into the perfectly submissive orifices.

Anything else says that Allah will not provide.

Away with every impediment to Allah's will.

Inshallah!

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 23, 2006 2:38 PM

For Naseem-

Their long-term strategy is apparent from the opening communiqué of the Islam in Africa Organization, (IAO) founded at a conference in Abuja in northern Nigeria in November 1989... It pledged:

"To eradicate in all its forms and ramifications all non-Moslem religions in member nations (such religions shall include Christianity, Ahmadiyya and other tribal modes of worship unacceptable to Moslems)".

Watch your back Naseem, us infidels may be your last, best hope.

Posted by: treehugger at February 23, 2006 2:42 PM

Oh, alright. Take up your complaints with the U.S. Marines.

Posted by: 00Buck at February 23, 2006 2:45 PM

Naseem,

Be careful. You start dropping the "SWT" and next thing you know you'll be doodling stick figures.

;)

Posted by: Beagle at February 23, 2006 4:48 PM

Naseem your most logical step would to be to dump the cult of death "islam" and come and join the world of the enlightened that is non-muslim. Be free to think what you like and not fear! that is what is truly being free is like....

Posted by: Lulu at February 23, 2006 6:44 PM

I bet there were some offensive cartoons in that shrine

Posted by: dococ at February 23, 2006 7:15 PM

If you really want to get the war started in the Middle East, just send a missle from inside Iran and destroy Mecca and see the Shiite hit the fan.

The Texican.

Freedom. THe only choice at any cost.

Posted by: Texican at February 23, 2006 7:40 PM

Shi'ite vs. Sunni violence. Who would have thought such a thing was possible: two groups from the Religion of Peace, that Noble Religion, using violence against each other? If only someone, say a Hugh Fitzgerald, had had the foresight to predict such a thing, we infidels could have prevented this tragedy. We have failed the Muslims once again! Mea culpa! Mea culpa!

Posted by: special_guest at February 23, 2006 8:25 PM

Naseem,

You've been let down by allah? There is no allah. Test the hypothesis further it you need to. For example, you failed to use the (swt) after writing allah's name and what happened? Nothing. Take your Koran and give it a few wacks with the bottom of your shoe. What happens? Nothing. Draw a cartoon of Mohammed and watch what happens. Again, nothing happens. Time to rid yourself of the burden of worshipping a non-entity. Time to let the healing process begin.

The only bad thing that you're going to have to concern yourself about afterwards is reprisals from the mind-numbed sub-humans who will try to kill you in the name of nothingness to avenge your refusal to also believe in nothing at all.

Posted by: Mahdi Al-Dajjal at February 24, 2006 10:04 AM

Time to release Sadam Hussein so he can restore order.

Posted by: Timbo at February 25, 2006 9:45 AM