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Jihad Watch Board Vice President Hugh Fitzgerald offers some suggestions about how to counter the spread of Islam -- and jihadist sentiments -- in Western prisons:
Prisons are brimful of the economically and psychically marginal -- those most likely to find solace, and a reason for being, in the pre-fabricated and consoling "Community of Believers." Money should be spent -- large sums -- to counteract Da'wa in prisons. Christian groups engaged in prison ministries are to be encouraged, and funded by private sources. The Muslim Da'wa, funded by foreigners, needs to have that foreign funding cut off. And every effort should be made to be as clever in the delivery of the Christian message as those conducting Da'wa, with such sinister success in the prisons all over the Lands of the Infidels (look at France, Holland, Belgium, England) -- so that the latter may be stymied in their well-funded, and relentless efforts. For they are not engaged in saving souls. Not at all. They are engaged in recruiting soldiers for the Army of Islam within the Lands of the Infidels. That is one good reason (there are, of course, many others) why non-Christians, including atheists, should be eager to support Christian ministries in prisons and elsewhere.Several other things could also be done in prisons.
The first is to carefully segregate the Muslim prisoners so that they are less able to conduct Da'wa, and can talk only to each other. If it is clear that they are intimidating non-Muslims (as has been suggested goes on in French prisons, where those who convert or "revert" among the 30% of the prisoners who are not Muslim do so in order to fit in, to get along, to not be subject to Muslim harassment and worse), then the state owes those non-Muslim prisoners protection. It also should be working to limit the number of conversions. On what grounds? On the grounds that the jihad that Islam preaches, and which is preached especially inside prison walls, is itself inimical to the interests of Infidels, as Infidels define that interest -- and that therefore the freedom to propagandize for Islam should be regarded in the same way that one would have regarded, in 1942, those making the case in the Western world for Nazism and the Aryan Herrenvolk.
The second is to include, as part of the work of missionaries, audience-specific information about Islam. Do not simply present Christianity as the alternative, the other white meat. Rather, let prisoners know, in detail, of the forbidding of so many things in Islam. For those who are trying to convert them to Islam are careful not to tell them everything right away. For example, only later does the fact that music is banned for True Believers become apparent. One wonders what would happen if Christian ministers in the prisons played a few different selections from popular music of the period 1930-20005, and after some heartrending or foot-stomping examples, stopped the music, let the silence reign, and then proceeded to explain, with quotes from Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, that music -- like so much else -- is forbidden in Islam. Outline historical Muslim opposition to music: mention what the Taliban did to wedding-singers, or how it destroyed radios. Mention the killing of Rai singers in Algeria by the most immoderate of Muslims.Then turn to the Bamiyan Buddhas, and ask "why were they destroyed?" Quote chapter and verse from Qaradawi on statues (and his quotation from Muhammad, on not entering a house that contained either dogs or statues). Go from there to depictions in paint.
Another good topic for Christian ministries in the prisons to focus on is the immutable role of slavery in Islam, sanctioned in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira -- and then a quick discussion of its permanence, as revealed even today. The message should fit the audience. To counter the Muslim targeting of black prisoners in England and France and America, offer the details of the Arab slave trade. Explain how it began earlier and ended later than the Western trade, and show that where it did end, it did so only under Western pressure. Explain that since slavery itself is permanently recognized by the Qur'an, it is therefore permanently part of Islam. For the example of Muhammad, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, is a Model for man -- and Muhammad not only owned slaves, but in his military conquests seized others. He set out by his example rules not for abolishing slavery, but for regulating the institution.
If the Pentagon, or the other agencies of the American government, cannot figure out how to recognize, and name, Da'wa (the Call to Islam) as a threat to Infidels, that is because they have, by insisting on this misleading phrase "war on terror," limited their response. It is not a "war on terror" but a war to defend the entire non-Muslim world from the Jihad that some -- not all, although there is no effort by those who do not to separate themselves from those who do -- Muslims believe in. It is a Jihad to spread Islam despite the laws, customs, and beliefs of others who do not wish to have it imposed on them. If it is properly described, then the instrument of Islamic supremacism known as Da'wa will be seen in a new light. Only then can appropriate measures be taken.
Meanwhile, watch for signs of psychological disarray, and that which encorages it. And for alienation born out of economic frustration, an alienation that now has, where Marxism once beckoned, the favored vehicle of Islam. For such mental disarray, and economic dismay, are the kinds of things that lead to susceptibility to the siren-song of Muslim missionaries. In prison, and without.
Posted by Robert at March 4, 2006 8:19 AM
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Hugh likes to bury critical information.
For those who are trying to convert them to Islam don’t tell them everything right away.
One thing they tend to overlook for those restless truth-seekers in our religion-shopping culture is the penalty for apostasy being death. That becoming an apostate is as easy as saying something conditionally in the future is not prominently featured either.
Posted by: Beagle![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at March 4, 2006 8:44 AM
Another excellent analysis and proposal from Hugh.
I would also abolish the Arabic classes offered in many federal prisoners,and limit Muslim chaplains to those who openly disavow jihad and salifist ideas. Because of US court rulings, the federal prisons have to provide Muslim chaplains, but that doesn't mean they can't be closely monitored.
Perhaps an agreement could be made with the Aga Khan to provide only Ismaili chaplains for Muslim prisoners and wean them away from 7th century Islam toward this pacifist "Islamic" sect.
Also, while there is no parole in the federal system, parole is a big issue in state prisons. Parole boards should made to take into account the violent nature of Islamic ideology and deny parole to any prisoner who becomes Muslim. That will effectively discourage da'wa in state prisons because inmates will know that they lose their chance of early release by becoming Muslim.
at March 4, 2006 9:08 AM
Hugh,
I agree with you in principle. But in practice I don't think it's viable. Consider the following.
Assume that you are an inmate sitting in your cell doing 25-to-life for multiple murders, rapes, and armed robberies. You are one bad-ass dude! One day two things happen.
The local prison chaplain visits you in your cell and tells you to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness with all your heart and weep and repent and never ever do anything like that again! If you thereafter love everybody and show no ill-will towards your fellow man and keep turning the other cheek then, in the end, you stand a good chance of being forgiven by god.
Afterwards, the local imam shows up at your cell. He says that allah is all merciful! If you convert to islam then allah will automatically forgive you for everything you ever did. And the best part is that whatever other murders, rapes, beatings, eye-gougings, stabbings, beheadings, and the like, you commit from this point forward in your life against any non-muslims (or apostates) inside or outside of prison, not only don't you have to ever feel any guilt about having committed such acts, but you will be rewarded by allah in heaven for having done so!
Now.. which fastest growing 'religion' in the prison population would you chose?
at March 4, 2006 10:04 AM
People in jail are often in need of something to "cling to", often there are feelings of anger at authorities and society. It's a ripe enviroment for conversions of any type.
I often hear that there is a large problem in Australia with high numbers of Australian Aboriginals convertign to islam.. Aussie Aboriginals are one of the underprivlaged communitys here, often havign problems with substance abuse and poverty.
http://www.ifew.com/insight/v12i01/dawaprop.html
"A Proposal:
Development of
Da'wah Efforts in Australia
Daud Batchelor 1997
I wish to point out that
(i) Australia does not yet have a functioning national da'wah organisation, and
(ii) Australia is not a developing country so that the Malaysian concepts presented cannot necessarily be applied directly (without modification) to Australian conditions - except in the case of the Aboriginal Community which is a "developing" community."
Posted by: meredith
at March 4, 2006 10:17 AM
Mahdi Al-Dajjal
Yup islam appeals to the general anger of inmates who are not in a happy place.
Hughs suggestions seem more about pointing out what islam has done to us make us angry, not what it can do to make you feel better.
In the councelling dept of the prisons as well, to encourage giving up the "victim" thinking, so prevelent in angry people may be very helpful, once again victimhood can be shown as a desructive islamic trait... ie any genuine victim now can't be heard due to the over use of the racial victem card by islam etc
let alone that victimism is a no go as far as getting a life thats just basic psychology.
Posted by: meredith at March 4, 2006 10:26 AM
Legally define the Koran as a organized crime manual, which, after all, it actually is, and then we have a debate about whther to supply prisoners with a fresh copies of Mein Kampf, or How to Operate an Organized Crime Gang, or the Koran, you know, literary classics like that.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 4, 2006 10:35 AM
Al-Dajjal is 100% correct.
It has always been interesting to me, the parallels between Islam and Prison Gangs. I don't believe that they are accidental.
Both are propagated through violence and intimidation.
Both have greatest appeal to those who are already violent and anti-social.
Both rely upon disinformation and obscurantism to fool others into becoming part of the group.
Both enforce the death penalty for trying to leave.
Islam is not a "religion" at all. It is the largest prison-gang in the history of the world. As such, it should be regulated just as every other prison gang behind bars.
We as a society really need to get past this whole business about trating Islam as a "religion." and come down hard on it. It is poison and we are allowing it to spread unchecked.
Posted by: Martel360 at March 4, 2006 10:56 AM
70 % of French criminals are Muslims. The French government is happy to keep these criminals Muslim. They are allowing the message of Islam to spread throughout their prisons.
Read here:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-05/04/article04.shtml
In the U.S., the percentage of criminals who are Muslim is much smaller than France's prison population. As in the case of France, Muslim chaplains in the U.S. are allowed to share Islamic teachings to the prison population.
One shouldn't be surprise to discover that Whabbi Sunni money from Saudi Arabia is flowing to U.S. prisons to promote religious conversions to Islam.
What is the result?
Today, more Muslim converts appear to have stepped out of Muslim terrorist training camps when they are released from a U.S. prisons.
This is alarming news.
Senator Charles Schummer of N.Y. is not happy about this development. To his credit, he has attempted to place some restrictions on the kind of Islamic teachings that are promulagated throughout the U.S prison system.
Read here:
http://schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR01459.html
at March 4, 2006 11:46 AM
Excellent suggestions. It should be obvious that islam is the worst kind of garbage that could be taught to inmates in prison. Our prisons allow imams to teach jihad to people that are already violent, alienated, and angry? Is that crazy? I can only think of Richard Reed, the shoebomber, a Jamacian convert in a British prison.
Ban Islam outright from prisons, lets not pussyfoot around. Let Muslims take their objections all the way to the Supreme court. The government lawyers could make the msulim plaintifs try and explain all of the objectionable quotes from the Koran. It would be quite an educational experience for the public, even if the case were lost. Go for it.
Posted by: GFB at March 4, 2006 12:14 PM
With all due respect Hugh, this is by far the most ridiculous piece I have ever read of yours. I generally find something of worth in your writing, whether I agree or not, but this time, you are way off.
You seem to indicate that, in the choice of "meats" in prison (pun intended), one must choose between Christianity and Islam. Nonsense. I am also offended that my tax dollars are going to fund any religion in prison. Deists find themselves in a bind since it is they who seek to reintroduce/inject religion into the society at every corner. They cry foul when a different religion uses the same rules to their advantage. These same deists are alarmed that they not only have to define religion, but that they cannot play favorites. Few constitution rights exist in prison, but where they do exist, laws must be content neutral. If you choose to treat one religion entirely differently, you will be held to a very high standard (strict scruntiny); one it certainly cannot stand up against.
Moreover, if you are going to put out a like, "warning, this religion can be dangerous to your health, please consider the other religion" label on Islam. I DEMAND one for Christianist dawa too, with perhaps a warning to those considering Christianity to isntead consider non-belief or a Vedic religion, since Christianity has been just as destructive as Islam historically.
No prisoner needs religion. What they need is an unpleasant prison stay coupled with backbreaking work, which should be used to pay for their stay. It's about punishment, not rehabilitation. Wasn't the Republican mantra of the 80s: punishment for prisoners, not rehabilitation? I agree with those Republicans. And if it is about punishment, why do you insist on Christian or Islamic dawa?
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 4, 2006 12:16 PM
Kafir Nonbeliever: " Christianity has been as destructive as Islam historically."
Excuse me!
But this is not true.
Where did you learn history?
Read this nonbeliever:
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/mustdefeatprint.htm
at March 4, 2006 12:29 PM
The real solution, here, is to outlaw islam. It is not a religion, it is just an ideology that is hostile to our own. Quite simply, islam is dangerous to the West. (Apologies to GWB)
There is precedent for such treatment. At one time, membership in the communist party or associated organizations was sufficient ground to deny one entry into the US or admission into the US military. It should be so for the adherents of islam.
Yes, islam, itself, should be outlawed. It is no more than a terrorist screed. Religion? Sorry, but no - we will decide what qualifies as religion.
Imagine 1.2 billion alcoholics organizing around their devotion to strong spirits - and calling their devotion, "Religion". What if they had a Holy Book, perhaps The Bartender's Bible? Is it religion? No. We decide.
We must reserve the right to decide what qualifies for treatment as religion - islam does not make the grade.
Posted by: 00Buck at March 4, 2006 1:31 PM
Christianity has been just as destructive as Islam historically.
I love the smell of ignorant moral equivalence in the afternoon.
Christianity wasn't spread by the sword and scorched earth tactics, for one thing. With over a thousand year head start, if Christianity had been as destructive it would still be half as destructive. Finally, I'd love to see you try to prove that statement.
at March 4, 2006 2:07 PM
Yes, islam, itself, should be outlawed. It is no more than a terrorist screed. Religion? Sorry, but no - we will decide what qualifies as religion. - 00Buck.
And here is why:
Islam is designed to lure/force/imprison it's members, like any other cult. Lure with a benign front of 'Religion of Peace', conveniently masking the violent Quranic verses like 2.191, 9.5 etc. Force those who resist, by Jihad. Once an individual enters Islam, that individual is imprisoned for life as remember, leaving Islam means death. Such is the design if 'Relition of Peace'.
That is why, Islam, itself should be outlawaed.
Posted by: Alert at March 4, 2006 2:09 PM
Our dear USA could mount a far more vigorous effort against those who promise to destroy us but we do not. What stops us? We are confused by appeals to the ideas of multiculturalism (all cultures are nice - please dont be mean) and a *mindless* application of our civl liberties laws... I despair of ever getting out from under...its Politcal Correctness that stops us from cleaning the prison system of jihadi conspiracies to murder - and how in the world do we diminish the power if Political Correctness...
I despir, I really do....
Edwin
at March 4, 2006 2:44 PM
can yo u imagine trying to get islam criminalized, trying to push the legislation through parliment?
i want it to happen faster, but in someways its a slow process... also alot of it is up to us. Small steps in all areas.
Aside from our personal opinions on the worth of any religion, fact is it's around, it's almost part of human nature. even Athiest (which i am) is a beleif system.
We should encorage religion to our own end. I.e. use it to disencourage islam in prisons. Also we should flaunt the wonderful freedoms of Modernity in muslims faces, encourage them to shaiten or what ever they call the devil.
Just getting them out of our homelands isn't enough (we can't anyway to many are to entrenched legally). Then we'd just have a huge mass of mad muslims festering and rebuilding for next jihad call, while we blissfully forget, it's taken us 20 years to wake the West up. It'd take 2 years for it to relax again.
To really beat islam we have to disintergrate the religion not the people.
at March 4, 2006 2:57 PM
Islam is attempting to take our world by storm, much like the gay agenda. The problem with us trying to use religious beliefs in an attempt to quelch the storm, our politically correct society will cry fowl play. They want us to keep all our religious beliefs out of the picture when it comes to establishing laws for all to follow.
In that case, we need to stand up for our concern for human life and freedom of conscience from a purely humanistic view point. The government is concerned with that which is for human life, protecting human life, punishing those who take someone else's life.
Islam punishes and kills innocent people every day just because of their so called religious beliefs. The should not be allowed in America or in any democratic nation of the world. If criminals convert to Islam, they will find justification for their murderous ways, although there is no justification for it. For this reason Muslim Chaplains should not be allowed to teach in prisons.
Islam is not a religion of peace for all the world. It is not even peaceful for those living in fear all day long under Islamic law. Since it is a dictatorship run under the guise of religion, it should not even be taught in our public schools, or in the so called places of worship in America.
We need to get serious about this and not try to argue it from a religious standpoint or we will get no where in our politically correct society.
Posted by: Joe61 at March 4, 2006 4:19 PM
In New Zealand i saw an article last year about a Maori Muslim who was going around the prisions talking to inmates he stated that we had them on there knees we got them at the right time,which means when they are lost in life and there for the taking and you have the best chance of poisening there minds with Islam.
Posted by: stevenz at March 4, 2006 4:31 PM
Our dear USA could mount a far more vigorous effort against those who promise to destroy us but we do not. What stops us?
Dear Sonnyboy
the American Establishment is pro-Islamic. Not the average people, but the Bush's, the Clinton's the Rockefeller's, Hollywood, the MSM.
We must fight and win, but it helps to know how many "Quislings" we're up against.
at March 4, 2006 5:38 PM
"Islam is attempting to take our world by storm, much like the gay agenda."
-posted above
Ah yes, I can see it all now. The conspiracy theory, number 101_a784/gay/muslim/link/agenda all makes sense to me now. Because males have homosexual sex in prison, and because there is Islamic dawa in prison, a great mind leaps forward to conclude: gays are somehow linked to "radical" Moslems! The next philosopher then concludes: gays are really Moslems in disguise! The last great thinker adds to the mix: send seditious/terrorist gays to Guantanamo to save the US!
/sarcasm
at March 4, 2006 6:33 PM
Money should be spent -- large sums -- to counteract Da'wa in prisons. Christian groups engaged in prison ministries are to be encouraged, and funded by private sources.
This ministry does a great job, a trustworthy organization.
http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?
at March 4, 2006 6:48 PM
"The local prison chaplain visits you in your cell and tells you to get down on your knees and beg forgiveness with all your heart and weep and repent and never ever do anything like that again! If you thereafter love everybody and show no ill-will towards your fellow man and keep turning the other cheek then, in the end, you stand a good chance of being forgiven by god.
Afterwards, the local imam shows up at your cell. He says that allah is all merciful! If you convert to Islam then allah will automatically forgive you for everything you ever did. And the best part is that whatever other murders, rapes, beatings, eye-gougings, stabbings, beheadings, and the like, you commit from this point forward in your life against any non-muslims (or apostates) inside or outside of prison, not only don't you have to ever feel any guilt about having committed such acts, but you will be rewarded by allah in heaven for having done so! "
-posted above
Both theories of forgiveness are rubbish and maddeningly similar to non-believers as well as to Vedic religion believers. A murderer is no less so after having taken the idiotic shahada declaration. Nor are sins washed when ones accepts the "blood of the lamb" (baaaaah). After both rituals, one remains what one was before. A killer remains a killer. A criminal is still a criminal. What changes is inside of the mind of someone. That person is being unjustifiably "released" and exculpated from guilt that he should feel for what he did. After all, we punish citizens regardless of their stupid religion.
It's also funny how morons seek religion after committing the most heinous of acts. I challenge you deist parents out there to allow a convicted child molester who had his sins “washed away” by the lamb, to watch your kids. Go ahead now, have at it. He’s a changed man you know.
at March 4, 2006 7:03 PM
Kafir, Christian ministries in prison are completely privately funded. No tax dollars.
I agree though that there should be punishment but most of those felons get out after awhile. I would rather they get out as Christians than as Muslims. Christianity can do the most to end recidivism over other rehab programs and just punishment alone.
As far as you comment about Christianity being just as destructive as Islam, well that's just plain ignorant. No offense intended to you personally, but really you should try to read a little more about the good things brought on by Christianity. Great art, great music, all of which is not allowed in a strict Islamic state, the first orphanages, the first hospitals and yes scientific discoveries too. Imagine that.
at March 4, 2006 7:22 PM
Joe - homosexuality is no threat to the world. Don't worry, you won't be forced to be gay (LOL, I once told a homophobe 'don't worry, I'm sure a gay man wouldn't find you in the least attractive' and he actually did a double take and agreed and calmed down).
Probably the post
"Yes, islam, itself, should be outlawed. It is no more than a terrorist screed. Religion? Sorry, but no - we will decide what qualifies as religion." sees the best solution.
Muslim communities should be encouraged to formulate a 'Modern Islam' that rids itself of the sexist, homophobic, jihadist, expansionist, slavery-promoting etc. aspects. They need to find a new name for that religion.
But Islam as it stands now and as you only have to check out AskImam to understand, is more an anti-democratic political movement than a religion, and should be seen as such.
SteveNZ, I'm from NZ too and didn't know about Maori conversions. I'm sure the concept of utu would fit in nicely, as would some of the sexist aspects. Can we talk about forming an NZ movement about this? How can we contact each other without revealing our details to the world?
Posted by: Lilith at March 4, 2006 7:40 PM
Kafir as a nonbeliever for most of my life I had some of the same thoughts about religious "morons" too. That all changed on the day I said I believe, I won't go into the cause for that belief, but I was not a prisoner and my life was going relatively well. The freedom one experiences from faith in Christ is based on yes, knowing that your sins are washed away. This only refers to the way we are seen by God, not by how men see us or react to us. The punishment of our sins still happens while we are here living life with everyone else. A prisoner still does his time or gets the death penalty or gets looked down upon by society. No freedom from the earthly consequence of sin. Just like someone sleeping around may get a disease that kills him, he can be forgiven from sin but he will still die as a consequence of that sin.
The Muslim never really knows if he is forgiven of sin and must endlessly bow and pray facing mecca repeating those same words over and over again, do the haj and the rest of the five pillars.
So, he learns to do things that earn him favor in the eyes of Allah. Like martyrdom in jihad, killing infidels etc..
So, I believe that converting prisoners to Christianity vs Islam is a great step towards ending Da'wa and creating citizens that may act more resposibly in a civil society. What can an atheist say to a prisoner about changing his life?
What do you have to offer, material things no more punishment, well they get material things from crime and well it seems that the punishment they get in prison just teaches them to be better criminals when they get out of jail.
Anyway, remember Christians on this site are on the same side as you against Islamic facism.
at March 4, 2006 7:41 PM
Kafir Nonbeliever wrote "Deists find themselves in a bind since it is they who seek to reintroduce/inject religion into the society at every corner" and
"I challenge you deist parents out there to allow a convicted child molester who had his sins “washed away” by the lamb, to watch your kids."
I've seen very few Deists on this site. Deism is defined in the Miriam-Webster's Dictionary as:
"a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe"
and in the Wikipedia as:
"Historical and modern deism is defined by the view that reason, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God. Deists reject both organized and revealed religion and maintain that reason is the essential element in all knowledge. For a "rational basis for religion" they refer to the cosmological argument (first cause argument), the teleological argument (argument from design), and other aspects of what was called natural religion. Deism has become identified with the classical belief that God created but does not intervene in the world, though this is not a necessary component of deism."
Thus a Deist is about as far from a practicing Christian, Jew, or Hindu as possible. Deism is actually the religious philosophy most similar to secular humanism and almost all religious believers (i.e. "Theists") would reject being labelled as Deists, but... who needs correct labels when dealing with all of us ignorant believers?
Posted by: Provoslavni at March 4, 2006 7:54 PM
“Kafir, Christian ministries in prison are completely privately funded.”
Wrong.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week640/cover.html
http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5122&abbr=pr&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1282
Get ready to start rollin' the dough to Moslems Bushies. They are a noble religion too.
at March 4, 2006 8:04 PM
"What can an atheist say to a prisoner about changing his life?"
You ask it as though a deist can change the life of a prisoner. Show me your recidivism rates. An ordinary atheist might not be a good counselor since we have no religion with which to fill him with love. But a non-religious counselor, atheist or otherwise, could help the prisoner understand:
That he must turn his life around by bettering himself through trade skills or education, by being encouraged to find dignity inside of oneself through self respect, education, respect for his family (if he has one), community and nation; by seeking a job once he is out (and inside the penitentiary); by making an honest living (and feeling the dignity that can bring); by learning patience; by ceasing to be a destructive force; by learning techniques to assist in the controlling of anger management if such is needed; that if he cannot do those things, he will be unable to live a normal life (and is likely to return to prison).
The counselor could couple this with a stern warning that if he returns to prison, it will be no picnic and likely would lead to an enhanced sentence. Add to this a policy of encouraging employers to give a prisoner a second chance, depending on the crime, and maybe you are on to something.
There is no perfect way as it were. We are dealing with human beings and human behavior.
at March 4, 2006 8:24 PM
"I've seen very few Deists on this site."
Ok then, Christianists.
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 4, 2006 8:25 PM
"Muslim communities should be encouraged to formulate a 'Modern Islam' that rids itself of the sexist, homophobic, jihadist, expansionist, slavery-promoting etc. aspects. They need to find a new name for that religion."
-Lilith
Yes, but we know they are not likely to do that. The constraints of the Islamic faith, the religiosity of the believers, the ignorance of most of their peoples make for the occurrence of such an event to be unlikely. Moreover, how long did it take Christians before such movements even began (ever so recently)? And if it did happen, it would likely occur in Europe. Such an Islamic reform might not even be accepted in the lands of the Moslems.
All things considered, I admit that if I had to choose between Christians and Moslems, I far prefer Christians. The truly reformed ones can be a joy and even the most fundamentalist around at least would allow me to keep my head - nice of them eh? I guess I need to be more grateful!
What the Christians seldom understand that is that many unbelievers are “cultural Christians” due to our upbringing. We don’t believe in the religion, but are generally highly tolerant of it as it occupies a place in the society and in our families. Of course we detest Islamic dawa (and Christian witnessing for that matter), but we have to laugh a little when Christians have to taste their own bitter medicine: the syrup of ipecac of “dawa”.
at March 4, 2006 8:40 PM
As I said before, if you took all the bad verses out of the Koran, all you're left with is a pamphlet.
I read that Schumer press release about islam 'extremism' in the pen. This line is classic (caps are mine)..."So I am befuddled as to why the State is allowing the SAME KIND OF ISLAM that led to the World Trade Center tragedy to be taught to the most violent members of our society... Go ahead, roll your eyes. I did.
Posted by: John Sobieski at March 4, 2006 9:05 PM
Kafir Nonbeliever-- I make the following observation with all the respect due one regular JihadWatch reader to another.
You seem to have a heightened sensitivity to anything related to the issue of homosexuality lately, say, in the past week. Accompanying this is a very large axe to grind with Christianity.
It's not just you, of course, in the latter case--it seems like an unusual number of threads over the past few days have degenerated into Christianity-vs.-Secularism sniping that distracts from the common cause that brings us all here. And, once it gets going, it's admittedly hard to resist putting one's own two cents in-- I know I have given into that temptation here and there. To the extent that I've been involved, I pledge unilateral disengagement.
What inevitably happens in the midst of the kind of sniping that has taken is the implicit grouping of one's opponent as not being part of the solution, and therefore part of the problem (enabling the spread of militant Islam). Highly counterproductive.
One inconvenient fact that gets lost in all of this is that solving the problem of global jihad will not solve all the world's problems (just a whole lot of them) or put an end to all debate. It's one issue, but one whose true gravity is evident in that it is a threat to us all, over and above our differences-- religious, secular, gay, straight, Republican, Democrat, Trekkie, Jedi, etc.
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 4, 2006 9:38 PM
I just read in the antijihad.forum, that muslims are terrified of doing time in Southern Italy, since the mafia think that muslims stir up too much trouble and bring about police scrutiny that the mafia would rather not have. The word is out that any muslims who go to a jail cell in Southern Italy will only be leaving in a body bag.
Posted by: Voltaire at March 4, 2006 10:13 PM
"It's one issue, but one whose true gravity is evident in that it is a threat to us all, over and above our differences-- religious, secular, gay, straight, Republican, Democrat, Trekkie, Jedi, etc."
Bravo Shinoliite. I've posted elsewhere that this is actually the strength of this site, if we can just acknowledge but not focus on our differences: this will show new site-finders that they are welcome here as anti-islamists, whatever their other beliefs.
Posted by: Lilith at March 4, 2006 10:13 PM
RE: With all due respect Hugh, this is by far the most ridiculous piece I have ever read of yours. I generally find something of worth in your writing, whether I agree or not, but this time, you are way off.
I am in complete agreement but not for the same reasons. Try implementing this "program" and the liberals and ACLU will scream.
Posted by: learjet0450 at March 4, 2006 10:45 PM
By "ridiculous" I assume you mean unrealistic. Is it unrealistic to suggest that others than devout Christians have a stake in Christian ministries in prisons, and can support such efforts? Is it unrealistic to suggest that those who have been identified as ripe for Da'wa should be made aware of aspects of Islam, including slavery which is part of Islam, recognized by Islam, practiced by Muhammad, and never given up -- there is no Muslim Willliam Wilberforce -- as an idea or an institution, except under Infidel pressure.
What is unrealistic about offering suggestions for how to pitch an appeal -- including that business of playing songs, and then noting that not a single one could have been produced within Islam, or would be acceptable to strict Muslims? If it is then suggested that, after all, there is music in the Islamic world (after all, 2 million people in Egypt turned out for the funeral of Umm Kulthum) one can respond that music is, nonetheless, present, where it is present, not because of Islam but in spite of it, and there is no mosque-music equivalent to gospel music or to hymns; there is no place for music in Muslim worship.
As for deeming the suggestion about segregating Muslim prisoners to be unrealistic, my reply is that when segregation is required for the safety of a prison population, it can be undertaken. If there is found to be a pattern of intimidation and harassment, as has been found in French prisons, of non-Muslims by Muslims (this is much less likely in the United States, where the number of Muslims is much smaller than in France), then the requests by non-Muslims to be separated from Muslim prisoners should be given a sympathetic hearing, and their evidence, or that of others, adduced.
There was nothing I wrote that was ridiculous. If some of it appears "unrealistic" to you, it is perhaps because you cannot imagine how these ideas could be usefully taken up, and promoted. But they can. And some of them will be, especially about the kind of pitch to be made in campaigns of counter-Da'wa, which must be fashioned to meet the needs of the particular targets of that campaign of Da'wa.
Posted by: Hugh at March 4, 2006 11:28 PM
"You seem to have a heightened sensitivity to anything related to the issue of homosexuality lately, say, in the past week. Accompanying this is a very large axe to grind with Christianity."
-Shinoliite
Exactly. On at least two threads recently I've felt the need to remind some posters that this is not a gay rights/LGBT forum or Christian bashing site. Some are getting to remind me of little growling dogs, their teeth gripping our collective pants-cuffs, making it difficult to look up, move forward, and maintain focus. You wanna complain about gay rights, there are plenty of sites for that. Take a crap on Christianity/the Bible? Lots of Mohammedan sites that will be happy to listen to your tripe.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 4, 2006 11:44 PM
Since it will be a clash between the dominant forces, Christianity has to win out over the gang-enabling Islamic creed.
Give me humility and the Sermon on the Mount over triumphalism and the Sewer of the Mo anyday.
Although I might prefer Taoists and Zen Buddhists getting into the act, their numbers in the U.S. and Europe are too slight to matter.
"Knowing others is clever;
Knowing yourself is wise.
Mastering others is strength;
Mastering yourself is power."
-Lao Tzu; "Book of the Way".
"We do not learn by experience, but our capacity for experience."
-Siddhartha Guatama, the "Buddha".
"If you cannot gain the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?"
=Dogen, zen teacher.
"No tree of knowledge exists,
There is no mirror in the mind;
Since all is empty from the origin
What dust or reflection can you find?"
-Hui Neng, Ch'an teacher.
The point is not to give answers, but to teach questioning.
Islam's fatal failing.
Posted by: profitsbeard at March 4, 2006 11:56 PM
agreed Eisenhund,
as the Danes say, we are all Danes now... It's the world against, islam and its leftist bum cleaners.
Sort out the those shocking Christian and Buddists witch burning gangs terrorizing Sydney later.
Posted by: meredith at March 5, 2006 12:02 AM
Abu Hamza has one of those!
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 5, 2006 12:11 AM
"On at least two threads recently I've felt the need to remind some posters that this is not a gay rights/LGBT forum or Christian bashing site."
Eisenhund
Alright, and then I'll remind people again that this site should represent the whole political spectrum, and if people post anti-gay and fundamentalist christian comments some of us will post pro-gay and atheist ones to ensure that newcomers realise that they aren't in a site with only one perspective (not that I even did on this thread).
Being compared to little dogs is rather insulting, but could equally apply to anybody introducing their personal belief system into the topic of Islam.
If you feel that this site should only represent one world view, perhaps Robert needs to decide on that and warn posters of it.
Posted by: Lilith at March 5, 2006 12:14 AM
Alright, and then I'll remind people again that this site should represent the whole political spectrum, and if people post anti-gay and fundamentalist christian comments some of us will post pro-gay and atheist ones to ensure that newcomers realise that they aren't in a site with only one perspective - Lilith
That's pretty much what's been going on, and getting us off-message. Better idea: Agree to disagree on what we disagree on, and agree on what we agree on, assuming the latter is why we're here.
Respectfully,
Shinoliite
at March 5, 2006 12:20 AM
Eisenhund, I've read your other post on this point now and understand your perspective better :)
Posted by: Lilith at March 5, 2006 12:26 AM
Good thing I previewed my post and scrolled down, Lilith. Looks like I can delete what I was gonna write. Too bad, it had a coupla nice metaphors.;-)
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 5, 2006 12:35 AM
Kafir, try reading the positive side of the coin.
http://www.demossnewspond.com/pf/presskit/ifikitrls042103.htm
I agree in that I certainly think funding Islam with any government money is like funding a potentially seditious group.
If all religious groups can partake than proof of low recidivism should be the determining factor, if they get funding or not.As well as strict scrutiny of what is being taught. One of the links you offered and the one I posted give a reflection of recidivism rates. You will also see that the typical prison sytem just doesn't do much at all to keep cons from making it back into the criminal world and ultimately prison.
Like you said though we are all just human beings, it's just that some just don't value human life much.
at March 5, 2006 12:41 AM
Kafir nonbeliever,
One key difference is: When we Christians get bashed, we try to change minds and hearts. We even do really wicked things like praying for our persecutors.
When Muslims feel offended they often change one's mind by cutting off his head.
Yes, shamefully, there are murderous exceptions among so-called Christians and Jews like Timothy McVey or Baruch Goldstein, but these are very rare and are condemned by the vast majority of believers. In Islam this type of murderous fanatic seems to be quite common and have the approval of the majority.
And please don't try to tell me that athiests and secularists are immune from murderous fanaticism. Look at the millions of innocent Catholics, Orthodox, and Buddhists who were murdered for their beliefs by athiestic Communists or the tens of thousands of Catholics murdered by the fanatical secularists during the terror of the French Revolution. Fortunately, Communist regimes usually collapse under the weight of their own contradictions, while almost all the religious, ideological, or philosophical murders today are inspired by Islam.
That's why Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, and Non-believers like yourself can now stand united against this common threat to us all.
Posted by: Provoslavni at March 5, 2006 1:09 AM
Lilith:
"Muslim communities should be encouraged to formulate a 'Modern Islam' that rids itself of the sexist, homophobic, jihadist, expansionist, slavery-promoting etc. aspects. They need to find a new name for that religion."
I agree.
Kafir:
"Moreover, how long did it take Christians before such movements even began (ever so recently)?"
So Kafir, please tell me exactly where in Christian history or in the Bible that jihadist, expansionist, slavery PROMOTING(except white southerners pre-civil war) homophobism, or sexism is supported or sponsored.
The early Christian church was known for its support and love for each other as well as taking in unwanted children and widows discarded by the Roman empire.
For many centuries the Roman (Catholic) church kept "christians" ignorant of there scriptures until reformers like Luther and others came along. So, yes there was a dark ages in Christianity and like you said people are imperfect. However there is no support for these things you mention in Christian scriptures. UNLIKE the Koran of course as WE ALL know on here.
Kafir:
"Of course we detest Islamic dawa (and Christian witnessing for that matter"
Again you are making a moral equivalency statement. A Christian witnessing to someone will NEVER lead to that person becoming a suicide bomber or Jihadist for the sake of Jesus, please.
So, please remember who your enemy is.
So, lets try to inform the uninformed about the danger of Islam expanding and not the oh so non problem of more prisoners becoming Christians.
By the way, you may keep you head.
at March 5, 2006 1:26 AM
Well put, Provo. People often forget the well over 50 million killed by self-described 'atheistic' Communists. Not to picking on Kafir, but there are too many glass houses in this neighborhood to be starting rock fights. Fools worry about fleas when caged with a starving wolf.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 5, 2006 1:32 AM
this is not the dark ages and you no longer have to become an irrational religious slave to a non-existent being simply because someone told you it's real.
Posted by: stranger at March 5, 2006 3:31 AM
Stranger:
"this is not the dark ages and you no longer have to become an irrational religious slave to a non-existent being simply because someone told you it's real."
Wow thanks so much for clarifying everything, now I can sleep better.
Many would say that it is irrational to believe that the universe and all things within it created itself. The big bang, do you believe in that theory? Was the banger personal or impersonal? What was there before the bang?
Oh, this website has to do with us confronting the menace of Islam, are your tirades directed at all irrational religious people or just the ones that like to maim and kill in the name of their non-existent being?
at March 5, 2006 3:45 AM
disciple
I just believe in one fewer god than you do..when you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours. Do you expect a story about a talking snake introducing temptation and then humanity being condemned to be accepted by any thinking person as a "real" description of reality?
at March 5, 2006 6:06 AM
Very few of the postings above have anything to do with Islam. This is regrettable.
Posted by: Hugh at March 5, 2006 7:38 AM
It would also be useful to lend support to this man - Bo Lozoff - who has written a book called "We Are All Doing Time", which has had quite a positive impact in our prisons.
http://www2.lifeonpurpose.com/Project%20Purpose/the_kindness_cure.html
"Spreading this idea--that prison time can be an opportunity for spiritual growth, that the cell can be an "ashram," and that a prisoner can be a "prison monk" working to transform and improve himself--has been the mainstay of Bo and Sita's work. But even as the letters, as many as 50 a day, continue to pour in to the Prison-Ashram Project, the couple is now moving their work in a new direction. Supported by a $120,000 grant from a millionaire benefactor and helped by the $10,000 they received as the 1994 recipients of the Institute of Noetic Sciences' Temple Award for Creative Altruism, the couple last year purchased this thirteen-acre North Carolina property to build Kindness House, a transitional housing facility for newly released offenders."
Posted by: Caroline at March 5, 2006 9:10 AM
"There was nothing I wrote that was ridiculous. If some of it appears "unrealistic" to you, it is perhaps because you cannot imagine how these ideas could be usefully taken up, and promoted."
-Hugh
Hugh, by ridiculous, I meant to say unworkable and 100% unconstitutional (at least here in the US). Such a policy clearly violates the establishment clause for starters. I attempted to (perhaps in a poor fashion) point out some legal (and ethical) problems with your idea. Those problems make the solution utterly impossible in the US unless you want to scrap the consitution. I don't. I did not mean to diminish in any way from the severity of the problem of Islamic dawa in prison, which is akin to giving a serial killer pcp; a powerful opiate to the most vulnerable.
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 5, 2006 9:16 AM
There is nothing unconstitutional about Christian groups, and others who may have no interest in religion but every interest in preventing the spread of Islam (for a simple conversion can make a former Infidel into a member of the army of Islam), pouring money into prison efforts. There is nothing unconstitutional about offering arguments that point out what Islam means, and that includes the place of slavery (slaves of all kinds, the slave-eunuchs of black Africa, the slave-warriors on horseback, the slaves who continue to exist in Mali, Mauretania, and the Sudan) in Islam and how slavery, where it was extinguished, was ended not by Muslim efforts but by Western pressure, on the limitations on art (no sculpture, no depiction of living beings), on music (by reminding would-be converts of what would be banned under Islam), and in general, in addition to the arguments for Christianity, offering the truth about Islam so as to limit its carefully-calculated appeal.
I find nothiing unconstitutional in either of these suggestions. The only one that might be more difficult to bring about would be the segregation of Muslim prisoners. If there are enough protests from non-Muslims about the pressure put on them (the kind of pressure observed in French prisons), then such segregation, in order to prevent potential problems or violence, might be considered a state interest that could survive strict scrutiny. Until a case is brought, one does not know how the court will rule. And no case will be brought, until laws are passed and put into effect, and then a concrete case, with parties possessing standing, bringing their challenge to that law.
Posted by: Hugh at March 5, 2006 1:44 PM
They are engaged in recruiting soldiers for the Army of Islam within the Lands of the Infidels. That is one good reason (there are, of course, many others) why non-Christians, including atheists, should be eager to support Christian ministries in prisons and elsewhere.Prison Fellowship
Founded in 1976 by Chuck Colson, Prison Fellowship partners with local churches across the country to minister to a group that society often scorns and neglects: prisoners, ex-prisoners, and their families and welcoming the children of prisoners.
http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?
Posted by: Bar at March 5, 2006 1:46 PM
"On at least two threads recently I've felt the need to remind some posters that this is not a gay rights/LGBT forum or Christian bashing site."
-posted above
I am reminded by some that this is not a LGBT site, as if the primary focus of my writing on this site were not Islam. I cannot change that immutable characteristic, nor do I want to. I will also not make apologies for being a homosexual. Additionally, I am an atheist and am proud of that fact as well. While both those facts are less important to me than you might think, they are nonetheless omnipresent. Furthermore, I cannot, and will not, hide either of those facets of my being should they be relevant to any discussion or I feel compelled to bring them up. If you don’t like those two aspects of my persona, that is your problem which will you will have to find a means of coping.
Some say that “controversial” issues ought to be saved for a later time; they can be “solved” when the “war” with Islam is over. Such a statement is both is disingenuous (as the issues exist now – not just in the future) and are merely a means of gaining the blind allegiance of progressives who would then later be duped into trusting the ambitions of Christianists. This is simply the 1979 Khomeni style actII. We are not in a war per se. We are in involved in relatively small military operations. We are in a struggle over demographics.
If you – or anyone else for that matter –think I should be silent about the necessity or fighting the US Christianists who are attempting to erode my rights at every turn here in the US and not be vigilant and demand the justice that I deserve, you are smoking something funny. One JD/Dwer even quipped, in true Goebbels’ style, that we gays are responsible for the population drop in the Western world, and thus, are assisting the Moslems! Why did you not condemn that poster? Why did JD/DW not erase that posting?
I will not be an ally of convenience against Islam, whose worth to Christinists is nil after the Christianists regain their religious throne and destroy us and Western civilization along with it. They, like Islamists, wish to bury me. It those same Christianists who are waging a nasty battle with gays in the US while using the “war” on terror as (religious) justification for attempting to take my rights away. They tell us to trust them; they can’t “yet” take a position. I did not attack the Christianists. Frankly, I couldn’t care less about their religion. Nonetheless, the Christianists have a broad agenda, like the Islamists. They choose to attack me and impose their beliefs on me. I won’t sit quietly and hope for your crumbs they would give me after the “holy war” is over. Attempting to silence us by using Islam as an excuse the fight the greater “war on terror/Islam” is merely an attempt enlist our help in destroying Islam and supplant it with Christianity.
Christianists, take you attack dogs off of me and all progressive thinking people in the West (and the US especially); stop likening me or others to Moslems. Tell your dogs to go after Moslems, not law abiding gay people. I do not make the Moslem beasts you fear, other heterosexuals create them.
Even when we agree with you on the Islamists’ threats, a person like me, a fairly conservative person at that, still has to listen to nothing but vitriolic garbage from all (90%) Christianists on this site. That should be a lesson to any other gays reading these threads. Christians can never be trusted unless they are reformed. Who among you are reformed? Few I bet.
I make no apologies for justifiably (and in a timely fashion) raising the question of gay intolerance in light of the Pim Fortuyn memorial (a gay man in Holland) after taking into consideration some of the comments made by one person who runs this site. On the one hand you would attempt to enlist the assistance of people like gays. With your other hand, you seek to take away all the rights that gays now enjoy in the US. Since you seem happy to have as Christian soldiers, do you suppose it might be ok to ask your position of things?
You Christians bemoan the “Western values” that Moslems don’t have, but most of you don’t possess them either. I shall not “put on hold” important issues of the day, as if doing so simply makes them go away.
So - all of you - stop invoking the name of Bruce Bawer, Pim Fortuyn, Irshad Manji and Hirsi Ali when you do not share any of their views. You think people like Bruce Bawer won’t see these comments too? We must remember Iran in 1979 and not trust Christianists until they prove they are not like Islamists.
at March 5, 2006 1:58 PM
"Christianity wasn't spread by the sword and scorched earth tactics, for one thing. With over a thousand year head start, if Christianity had been as destructive it would still be half as destructive. Finally, I'd love to see you try to prove that statement. "
That is one of the most ridiculous statements I ever had in my life. It's ironic that a religion that spawns the notion of "Absolute Love" can spawn so much unmitigated hatred and violence in it's history.Christianity has one of the most hate filled, bloodiest histories than any other religion. I would rather convert to Islam than to Christianity. I mean what can beat the subjugation and colonialism of Africa under the guise of Christianity, hundreds of years of brutal anti-semitism against the Jewish people, the slaughter of Protestants in France in the middle ages, the horrendous slaughter of Muslims and Jews during the Crusades, the system of rascist segregation in South Africa under the guise of Christianity, the absolute idiocy of the Inquisition and for God's sake the Catholic Church was still debating in the 1600's if women had a soul.
at March 5, 2006 2:04 PM
"I would rather convert to Islam than to Christianity."
-above
I would tend to prefer even the most cretinous Christian to a dangerous Islamist, wouldn't you? Admittedly, there is not too much difference, except in the violence department. I sort of have an attachment to my head.
at March 5, 2006 2:15 PM
"It's ironic that a religion that spawns the notion of "Absolute Love" can spawn so much unmitigated hatred and violence in it's history."
-Freethinker
Ah yes, Christianity repackaged to the modernly ignorant in the 21st century as the "Real Religion Of Peace" (trademarked of course), as opposed to the Religion Of Peace (Islam) TM. Who would win the patent war?
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 5, 2006 2:19 PM
I'm just sick of all these Christian evangelists trying to covert you to Christianity. It's sickening and I really don't think any other religion would force their beliefs on you like that. All in all I think that Christianity has been more violent than Islam but these hate filled jihadists are giving them a run for their money.
Posted by: freethinker1 at March 5, 2006 2:20 PM
"If there are enough protests from non-Muslims about the pressure put on them (the kind of pressure observed in French prisons), then such segregation, in order to prevent potential problems or violence, might be considered a state interest that could survive strict scrutiny."
In fact, I highly doubt the constitutionality and practicability of any of the proposals you made.
Though I expected you to, you did not bring up the issue of some sort of wartime type exigency/exception. Since the "war" we are in is hardly traditional and does not generally involve imminent threats, that exception is also highly unlikely to succeed.
at March 5, 2006 2:35 PM
Freethinker,
A good number of them are reformed at least - at long last. The Christians who are reformed can be pleasant. However, the Christianists among them are nearly (emphasis on nearly) as pitiful as Islamists. I put my hope in the reformers as they are civilization's only hope. However, Islam cannot boast of any such reformation because it has not been subjected to hundreds of years of attacks. And where are Islam's reformers anyway? Scattered in Europe and North America where they carry no chance of affecting their home nations'populations?
So let the savage intellectual attack on Islam begin in earnest all over the 'net and blogosphere and in the media. And while doing so, let us never cease to remind the Christians why they were unrelentlessly attacked for the last few hundred years in the first place, lest they forget their own religion's problems and secretly desire to fill the void that Islam leaves behind.
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 5, 2006 2:49 PM
Wow, I hope everyone feels better now that they have vented their rage at the people that are trying to destroy the west, those awful Christians. Oh, I meant Islamic fascists.
Okay, so let me say this, the article called for helping imates to see the dark side of Islam by supporting Christian ministries. Than all hell broke loose on this post.
Yes people acting on what they believed to be true attacked people and maybe even subjugated them cloaking themselves in Christianity. Bottom line when you really study ALL of the Bible you will not find these actions justified as you do in the Koran. This has been mentioned more than one time on this site. There are people gay, "christian", democrats, republicans, etc.. that do and say very radical things. We are here to prevent any of us from being forced into a dimmi status and hopefully inform others of the dangers of the islamic expansion.
So, if a Christian comments using scripture to show a great difference between the two "religions" that is justifiable as it pertains directly to what is going on with Islam in the world today.
I'm done.
Oh, Stranger the bible contains some metaphor and allegory. Every line is not meant to be literal. The snake is a reference to Satan.
Now I'm done.
at March 5, 2006 3:51 PM
Freethinker wrote: "and for God's sake the Catholic Church was still debating in the 1600's if women had a soul."
This is an absurd slander. No Catholic (or Orthodox Christian) has ever debated that anywhere at any time. In the most ancient and beloved prayer of the Catholic Church, the Magnificat of the Blessed Virgin, she proclaims "My SOUL doth magnify the Lord and my Spirit exults in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:46).
There has never been any question of women's souls in Christianity or Judaism since both hold that all of us, male and female, are made in the image of God "In the image of God, He created him, male and female He created them" (Genesis 1:27). If women were thought not to have a soul how could they be baptized, receive the Eucharist, or be venerated as martyrs and saints in heaven?
A few anti-Catholic gnostic heretics such as Valentius did teach this absurdity, as did a few puritan oriented Protestants such as the Socinians, one of the numerous Antitrinitarian sects to which the Reformation gave birth. But all these were determined enemies of Catholicism.
at March 5, 2006 5:38 PM
The only one that might be more difficult to bring about would be the segregation of Muslim prisoners. ~ Posted above
In the past few weeks a prison located in a Los Angeles suburb has experienced daily violence between African American inmates and Hispanic inmates, today and for the foreseeable future they are segregated by race as a protective measure.
Posted by: Bar at March 5, 2006 5:39 PM
Bar, you are correct. The US courts have held that prisoners may be segregated for "any legitimate reason" provided such action is necessary to maintain prison order and safety.
Since the Muslim prisoners demand separate dress, and eating accomodations, it would be justified to segregate them completely. If a prisoner did not want to be in the Muslim segregated cell block, he could opt out, but would have to give up Islamic dress, halal food, time exemptions for salat, and any other accomodations available in the Muslim block.
Posted by: Provoslavni at March 5, 2006 6:05 PM
It isn't just the non-Muslims in French prisons who are having a hard time. This was a recent report about the "Muslim Boys" terrorizing prisoners in Britain:
Posted by: Caroline at March 5, 2006 7:17 PM
-Kafir and others
I point out that this is not an LGBT/gay rights or Christian bashing forum for a reason. Your peevish bleating on these topics grow tiresome and distract from the real focus of this site. Whether or not your grievances are a subject for discussion now or later is immaterial. This is not the place for it. Go on a gay rights/Mohammedan site and rant all you like. Make your own, call it 'CrusadeWatch' or something. But by all means, put down your copy of "A Handmaids Tale" and knock off the "Christianist" paranoia rhetoric. Not everyone who disagrees with you or doesn't like your lifestyle is a Bible-bashing militant. You want to toss out leftist perjoratives and call yourself "progressive", well then bully for you. Do it somewhere else. The topic here is Islam and its textually and theocratically mandated jihad against all that is not Islam. Whining, bitching, and name-calling is not going to help. You want to sit around and complain that your feelings are hurt? Fine. Go in a corner and do it. If you're not going to help, get out of the way. This is also not a therapy session. Time is up for snivels and sniffles. Warriors are progressive, they move forward. If you don't like that, keep the lights on and the beer cold. We'll be thirsty when we get back to you.
And no, I'm not one of these "Christianists" (to use your favorite word) you're always frothing about. My ancestors had Morrigan, and she didn't turn the other cheek.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 5, 2006 9:08 PM
"Go in a corner and do it."
Let's see. The connection to Islam in your post is...? No it is only a personal attack whereas mine is focused on Islam (see infra).
I shall try an EU type apology: I’m sorry Mr. Eisenhund, I won't publish the Christian cartoon ever again. Please don’t be offended that I blasphemed your prophet. It’s this nasty freedom of speech thing we have in the West.
With respect, your intellectual abilities underwhelm me. You tell me to sit in a corner as if we were in grade school and you have "punished" me. You fail to defeat me intellectually so you instead imagine (in your mind) a physical world; a world in which you could force me to submit to your physical commands. What a Freudian slip on your part! So is that would you really meant: forcible submission? Does that also indicate you want to harm me physically if I fail to sit obediently at your command, and because I am gay? This would be behavior just like Moslems’, and not behavior I would expect from a "civilized" Christian like you. Certainly your previous posts indicate such a strong and irrational enmity towards homosexuals that one has to wonder if you would not resort to violence like so many other Christianists have been doing lately in the US against gays. By the way, studies have recently determined that who exhibit that strongest irrational hatred of gays are men who are frequently conflicted with such issues.
My point was, and is, that those who claim to be supporters of Bruce Bawer, Pim Fortuyn, Irshad Manji and Hirsi Ali in the struggle against Islamic oppression need to not try to deceive others about their true intentions. Add also to that list, Theo Van Gogh. All of these are important names in Europe at the moment, but you seem to forget that. These gay people, or friends of gays, are simply expendable pawns to be used to prepare for the return of the “king”. No. The truth is these are Westerners (one deceased) who are on the front lines battling Islam in various ways. Clearly, your irrational animus towards gays shows you do not posses their Western credentials. Those are the people I seek to join in fighting Islam, not Christians. Islam can only be combated with reason (immigration changed and sometimes covert/overt war), not more religion.
Cheers,
Kafir
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at March 5, 2006 10:55 PM
And while doing so, let us never cease to remind the Christians why they were unrelentlessly attacked for the last few hundred years in the first place, lest they forget their own religion's problems and secretly desire to fill the void that Islam leaves behind. ~ Posted by Kafir Nonbeliever
Kafir Nonbeliever
Would you appreciate people mistreating you for things that John Wayne Gacy or
Roy Marcus Cohn did. Perhaps I should recall a few atheist dictators in history past like Stalin or Lenin and for their atrociousness you and your elk should be attacked and reminded of your violent past and problems?
That is what you advocate for others, and it certainly doesn’t sound like the moral high ground, it is very bigoted and intolerant so in that respect you could not be liberal by any stretch of the imagination.
Posted by: Bar at March 5, 2006 11:00 PM
-Kafir
You certainly are a cherry-picker aren't you. I specifically pointed out that I am not one of those "Christianists" that you're constantly moaning about. In fact I've never said that I'm a Christian. Morrigan was a pre-Christian, Celtic, war goddess. Nor have I ever expressed "that strongest irrational hatred of gays". I have simply stated on more than one occasion that this is not the forum for that topic. People like you seem to have a problem grasping simple concepts like that, being so blinded by your rabid anti-Christian paranoia that you see people swinging Bibles at you from around every corner. As to my intellectual capabilities "underwhelming" you, well I can't really say much to that as the amount of concern that I have for impressing you can only be measured on the quantum level. But by all means keep up the smug, holier-than-thou, I'm-smarter-than-you-are b.s. for which "progressives" are famous. I admit, your condescending petulant rants are sometimes good for a laugh. Here's a tissue, go cry about it. Meanwhile, the rest of us have a jihad to deal with.
Posted by: Eisenhund at March 6, 2006 12:00 AM
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