Robert, can you please provide a link to this website? This is a serious issue that needs to be investigated.

Posted by: jehana at March 8, 2006 1:07 PM

Let us bear in mind that the Hamas and the Palestinian Authority in general are protected diplomatically by the European Union and other Quartet members. They have paid billions of dollars to support the PA and one must assume that if they didn't like what they were getting, they would stop funding it. If someone thinks that they fund the PA for "humanitarian" reasons, as the EU itself claims, then he would be extremely naive. The EU ought to be aware of the mass murder going in the Sudan, both in the South over the last fifty years and more recently in Dar Fur. The EU never intervened for the sake of humanity to stop the murders in the Sudan. Only a fool could attribute humanitarianism to the EU, or the UN for that matter.

Posted by: Eliyahu at March 8, 2006 1:13 PM

Is this website a new and distinct one from the one we read about a month or more ago that featured a story about "Al Andaluse", seemingly preparing the future Shahids for the next fight (once they've eradicated Israel)?

For bloggers who don't also check out frontpagemag.com or WorldNetNews, off-topic, but here's a WNW piece on the demographic fraud employed by the PA to "maximize" aid receipts that potentially runs into the $US billions:

Palestinians bilked U.S. taxpayers out of millions?
Congress hears study contending PA population numbers massively inflated
By Aaron Klein
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

Congress today will be presented with a new study that documents the Palestinians have inflated their population numbers by over 50 percent and that almost $3 billion in United States taxpayer funds may have been provided as aid to the Palestinians in part based on fr@udulent data.

"American tax dollars and other international humanitarian aid have been based on inflated population numbers which have been accepted without question by governments and aid agencies. Our researchers pointed out that money has been spent to help Palestinians who were double-counted, never born or not present in the West Bank and Gaza," Bennet Zimmerman, head of the new study, titled "Arab Population in the West Bank and Gaza," told WND.

Zimmerman led a team of researchers who found Palestinians have inflated their population by close to 1.5 million, in some cases counting people in some cities twice. He was invited to testify today at a House International Relations Subcommittee on the Middle East chaired by Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., probing U.S. assistance to the Palestinian Authority.

Since 1994, the United States has reportedly given nearly $1.8 billion in direct aid to the PA and nongovernmental organizations operating in the Palestinian territories, usually delineated through the U.S. Agency for International Development. America has also provided more than $1.1 billion to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, which oversees Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza, according to State Department records.

U.S. assistance to the Palestinians last year alone reportedly totaled $282 million.

American aid to the PA and Palestinian-related agencies, especially to refugee organizations, is devised largely based on Palestinian population figures, a State Department spokesperson said.

Both the U.S. and Israel have based their information regarding the Palestinian population on numbers provided by the PA's Central Bureau of Statistics, which claims a total population in the West Bank and Gaza of 3.8 million.

But the new study, led by Zimmerman and researchers Roberta Seid and Michael Wise, puts the current Palestinian-Arab population of the West Bank at 1.4 million and Gaza 1.1 million, for a total of 2.4 million.

The study compared the accepted PA data to Palestinian voting records, birth and de@th records published annually by the PA's Health Ministry, immigration and emigration data from Israel's Border Control, internal migration of Palestinians from the territories into Israel recorded by the Israeli Interior Ministry and others, Israeli Civil Administration population studies, U.N. population surveys, and surveys conducted by the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics and the World Bank.

Zimmerman's team found extreme faults in the methods used by the PA to determine its population, including counting the 230,000 Arab residents of Jerusalem twice and retroactively raising growth and birth rates, which the study contends have been declining.

The PA claims a natural growth rate of 4 to 5 percent per year, among the highest in the world, but Palestinian Ministry of Health records published annually since 1996 contradict the PA's own claims by stating growth rates averaging around 3 percent.

Zimmerman's study documents the PA tampered with its own data, retroactively raising its growth numbers in 2002. The new study shows a steady pattern of growth decline leading to a natural growth rate in 2003 of just 2.6 percent.

The PA has documented rises in Palestinian fertility rates - the number of children per woman - but Zimmerman's study found a dramatic decrease from 7.4 in 1997 to 3.89 in 2003. Palestinian women in the West Bank averaged 4.1 children in 1999 and 3.4 in 2003, and women in Gaza averaged 5 children each in 1999 and 4.7 in 2003.

The PA also projected a net population increase of 1.5 percent per year as a result of immigration from surrounding countries. But Zimmerman's researchers found that except for 1994, when the bulk of the Palestinian leadership and their families entered the territories from Tunis, Palestinian emigration from the area has outweighed immigration by a net negative of about 10,000 per year.

"The U.S. and Europeans have for years accepted entirely exaggerated data," Zimmerman said. "Now Congress has some very tough questions to ask, including how its own State Department and the CIA could have been duped and what do to regarding future aid."

Ros-Lehtinen recently drafted legislation along with Tom Lantos, D-Calif., calling for a halt to U.S. assistance to the PA following Hamas' victory in January's Palestinian elections.

The United States and Israel have been leading an international push to politically and financially isolate the new Hamas government.

The PA has for years depended on U.S. and European aid to pay salaries for its nearly 150,000 employees, totaling about $90 million per month.

While most European countries have expressed support for isolating Hamas, Israeli officials fear substantial cracks in a united international front, particularly following the terror group's visit to Russia last week.

In response to international attempts to isolate his government, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar claimed last month his terror group doesn't need "s@tanic" American money.

"Those who built their structure on the basis of the Quran ... cannot budge because of promises from America or a dollar from Europe. I wish America would cut off its aid. We do not need this s@tanic money," al-Zahar said at a news conference in Cairo.

But al-Zahar took quite a different tone in a WND interview just prior to the Palestinian elections in which he outright lobbied for U.S. money.

"Without any condition we are accepting any money and we are ready to put these figures in the proper way and in a purified manner. Anybody can follow this money, can observe and account, do anything to be sure that we are running our system without c0rruption," al-Zahar said in response to a question about whether he would accept American aid.

Al-Zahar, whose group has openly funded and carried out over 60 suic!de bombings and hundreds of rocket and shooting attacks against Israelis, said he would use American money to build "factories, agriculture and [other] real investments in the Palestinian people."

Interesting to think that part of the "Nakba Industry" has been built on claims that the extent of the Holocaust has been grossly exagerated to extort money and political support for Israel. There's nothing new, though, about the "pro-Palestinians" fudging numbers of "Arab refugees". Al Gore's dad served on a senate subcommittee back in the early 1950s investigating the UN's practices and found evidence of triple-dipping, and, of course, counting virtually any Arab/Muslim claimant as a refugee.

Another thought also crosses my mind: what proportion of the "refugee camp dwellers" is Muslim vs Christian. (I'd hazard a guess that they are virtually all Muslims.)

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 8, 2006 1:16 PM

The previous Hamas site aimed at kids appears to be defunct, but is described here:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=2953

The new site sounds like more of the same.

Posted by: Shinoliite at March 8, 2006 1:35 PM

Much more multimedia in this category at Palestinian Media Watch, including "Teaching Hatred Via Music Videos and Culture," and "Teaching Children to Aspire to Death for Allah."

http://www.pmw.org.il/

Sick.

Posted by: Shinoliite at March 8, 2006 1:42 PM

Please, can somebody find this website?
I need it for another article, Thanks!

Posted by: jehana at March 8, 2006 2:19 PM

Eliyahu wrote:

If someone thinks that they fund the PA for "humanitarian" reasons, as the EU itself claims, then he would be extremely naive.

So why do you think they do it?

It's a question, not a challenge. My country is in the EU, but I despise the organization - I've no time for it at all.

Posted by: Yojimbo at March 8, 2006 2:25 PM

It just shows how vile and sick the "Palis"
really are but remember....Islam is a peaceful religion. The whole Islam thing makes me want to puke.

Posted by: Siciliano at March 8, 2006 3:33 PM

Now now Robert, don't you understand the roots of this?
We Jews, and you non jews caused this to happen.

Jews were here first and yet didn't see how to become saintly as an entirety, and so.... ahem,
so... those muslims must learn the path of perfect Jihad, to immolate those who did not find perfection in their lives, by homiciding them... all, in the name of the messenger of that perfect perfection.

Now, They'ver got that there match and that there can of gasoline- and don't you understand- the Jews made them _have to do this_
because they existed, and then then came Christians and by allah, they had to annihilate them, and it's a conspiracy to keep that match from the can of gas. Yes. They made them do it, and they are keeping them from doing it. What a travesty we nonmuslems bring to the table.

It's your fault.... you just don't see that, do you :^)

Mark

Posted by: mgoldberg at March 8, 2006 4:14 PM

waterdragon52 posted a WNW article titled

Palestinians bilked U.S. taxpayers out of millions?
Congress hears study contending PA population numbers massively inflated

I'm not as interested in the 50% inflated population figures (though that is interesting) as much as, why were/are we sending any money whatsovever to the "Palestinians"? With the election of Hamas, this should be ending, but we all know that it will continue through NGO's and third-party-nations etc. to hide the payments from us.

Without any condition we are accepting any money and we are ready to put these figures in the proper way and in a purified manner. Anybody can follow this money, can observe and account, do anything to be sure that we are running our system without corruption.

This is not an accounting error. This is pure insanity for us to be sending them even a dime.

Posted by: special_guest at March 8, 2006 4:34 PM

Truth4u said

One of them described to me how in the future they will all kill the unbeleivers and that if ever they came to kill me then to say a certain phrase and it will identify me as muslim.

If they ever come to kill me, I will say a certain phrase that will identify me as an infidel: "Don't move or I'll shoot".

Posted by: special_guest at March 8, 2006 4:41 PM

So does the programming for the "tweens" have middle eastern Britney Spears-types telling them about the good times they'll have in Paradise? At what age do they start selling the 24/7 sex with the 72 virgins?

Posted by: 3812Michelle at March 8, 2006 4:53 PM

I wonder if CAIR or any other Muslim group will object to these cartoons, if there will be any Cartoon Rage. Just wondering...

Posted by: Frank at March 8, 2006 4:59 PM

At what age do they start selling the 24/7 sex with the 72 virgins?

Not sure - but indoctrination in "martyrdom" starts early:

LGF search: palestinian child abuse.

Posted by: Yojimbo at March 8, 2006 5:04 PM

Special guest..
Why even say that? Just shoot!

Posted by: Siciliano at March 8, 2006 5:06 PM

Whats to be expected from the Palistinian terro state.Its Radical, Exteme, Suicidal, Murderous, Genacidal etc..And for the most part this brave new world we live in is unwilling to check it.And change course.Were just to moraly weak to turn back the tide.The sighns have been clear to all.Despite the handshakes of the peace of the brave etc..at the end of the present course is sure appacaliptic warfare.This is whats clear to everyones senses.And was trying to be avoided with one peace plan after another.Only there are complicated natraral laws in effect.Obvious outcomes to events.Good intentiouns or not.The global communiety has been bent on muting the imutable.And a palistenian terro state is just one result of these new world planners.Some laws are beyond our ablity to overrule and change.We can notice them.But vialate them to our parrel.This is what the Hamas web postings make clear.So again what did we expect.A blossum of Mideast Peace.only the naieve could trust such foolishness.Becouse nothing ive heard sounds like peace is in reach a nogateatioun away etc..

Posted by: Rench at March 8, 2006 5:14 PM

I'm struggling to find the right words, because despicable and unthinkable don't even come close!

I've seen similar shocking material on other websites that would lead you to believe that we're sharing this planet with aliens, because it isn't human to teach a "child" these abominable methods of murder - it goes beyond description.

This isn't standard warfare they want - and this isn't standard warfare we're facing. No. This is something otherworldly!

Posted by: champ at March 8, 2006 5:36 PM

OT

William Lind on the ports deal: Unholy Alliance.

Posted by: Yojimbo at March 8, 2006 5:38 PM

What better proof of the death cult's perversity is there than this?

Posted by: DesertDawgN29 at March 8, 2006 5:39 PM

when a culture choses death for its children, there is no future for them. the west needs to stop payment until the PA is accountable for all their actions. Liberal just want good intentions, and no proof that their way works. there has to be a grass roots push for payment to stop now! contact your local MP, Senator, etc!

Posted by: Lulu at March 8, 2006 6:04 PM

Jimmy "Peanuthead" Carter supports the Palis...
He's the start of the collapse of intelligence in this country. Send that jackass's $$$ over to the peaceful Hamas. Go help build habitats for Hamas Jimmy.

Posted by: Siciliano at March 8, 2006 6:14 PM

How nice!

Dreadful.

Posted by: DaveyFreak at March 8, 2006 6:31 PM

"The site features animated figures and stories that young children could easily relate to."

Wait, I thought that the Quran forbid artistic depictions of anyone or anyTHING.

What is it with these Muslims? Is it that they obey their teaching only when it suits them? Is disobeying the "holy quran" acceptible if it means there will be more tottlers recruited to be bomb-carriers?

Has it occurred to anyone that there's nothing too vile and disgusting to a Muslim, as long as it advances the aims of Islam?

Posted by: yohannbiimu at March 8, 2006 7:05 PM

“"The Victor," glorifies death and suicide for God.”

The intent for these children’s future is to murder unbelievers. This is murder for God. Murder, not suicide. Suicide is just the method of murder.

Posted by: butterfly at March 8, 2006 7:46 PM

"The PA has documented rises in Palestinian fertility rates - the number of children per woman - but Zimmerman's study found a dramatic decrease from 7.4 in 1997 to 3.89 in 2003. Palestinian women in the West Bank averaged 4.1 children in 1999 and 3.4 in 2003, and women in Gaza averaged 5 children each in 1999 and 4.7 in 2003. "

Best news I've heard in ages - hope the trend continues downward!

THe fact that the original site has disappeared reminds me of a thought I had recently: we should be keeping a record of some of these sites in case they are removed for taqiyya purposes. I've decided to take a copy of some of the outrageous answers AskImam gives.

Posted by: Lili at March 8, 2006 7:58 PM

The site is:

www.al-fateh.net

I think it is overloaded now, I can't get it to load completely.

For more info about Hamas websites, look here:

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/eng_n/internet_m05e.htm

Posted by: libbysmom at March 8, 2006 8:11 PM

I clicked post before I intended to. Here are more links.

'Teach kids peace' gives a good description of the al-fateh site:

http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1011.php

Also, an article from the Spain-Herald in January of 2006 reports that al-fateh included a demand for the return of Seville:

http://www.spainherald.com/2414.html

Quote from article:

"The web magazine, whose name means "conqueror," includes an article in which the city of Seville itself is the narrator, saying, "I beg you, my loved ones, to call me to return along with the other cities of the lost paradise to Muslim hands so that happiness may reign in my lands. Dress me, for I am the bride of the land of Al Andalus."

Posted by: libbysmom at March 8, 2006 8:23 PM

My oft-pinheaded coworker would be so quick to say that there must be a "mistranslation" ... that it really doesn't "mean" what it "says" ... or that it's just a "small minority".

Posted by: Jim The Kafir at March 8, 2006 9:27 PM

Al-Fateh.net has been around since 2002 (see the WND link in my earlier post); today's YNet article makes it sound like this is something new. Still, the translations of "Victor" and "Conqueror" can overlap in Arabic (at least according to systransoft.com), though the former has a slightly more triumphalist connotation, so it's hard to tell for sure without another URL surfacing.

I've been checking Memri and Internet Haganah periodically to see if they've come up with anything.

I get the following error message when attempting to load the Al-Fateh site; it appears to be the wrong character set, but is that much more fun to try and read aloud:

"Àêêàóíò âðåìåííî íåäîñòóïåí!"

Posted by: Shinoliite at March 8, 2006 9:33 PM

Sick Bastards!

Posted by: disciple at March 8, 2006 10:53 PM

At the Dumb Ox we have a regular feature, "I'm a Toys Hamas Kid." We're working on the full lyrics, so please stay tuned.

http://thomistic.blogspot.com/2006/03/im-toys-hamas-kid-cont.html

All the best,
D. Ox
http://thomistic.blogspot.com

Posted by: Dumb Ox at March 8, 2006 11:06 PM

I have just seen there is going to be a demo for free speach infront of the Danish Embassy this Friday March 10th in San Francisco.

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=19935

Any JWers in the bay area going to go?

Posted by: km at March 8, 2006 11:23 PM

Hello - where are you guys? You know - the folks who defend 'peaceful' Islam. I haven't read a single post concerning this topic from a one-of-ya (wonder why).

Posted by: champ at March 9, 2006 12:14 AM

"...but is that much more fun to try and read aloud:

'Àêêàóíò âðåìåííî íåäîñòóïåí!'"
-Shinoliite, March 8, 2006 09:33 PM

LOL! Yell it loud enough, firing a Kalashnikov in the air (who cares about the whole 'what goes up, must come down' thing), the Pali's would think you were one of them.

Posted by: Eisenhund at March 9, 2006 12:58 AM

Fox news ran a peice about this, and as the discussion was ongoing, pictures of kids were displayed on the screen. Holding the koran and carring a gun, looking through the scope of a M-15.

Some were dressed in military gear.

The west's people worry about who is around the kids, but there you must watch out for the kids.

Speachless..

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at March 9, 2006 1:47 AM

If they ever come to kill me, I will say a certain phrase that will identify me as an infidel: "Don't move or I'll shoot".
Posted by: special_guest

You're doing it all wrong. First, you pull the trigger, then yell "don't move or I'll shoot"

Posted by: Mullahmasher at March 9, 2006 5:22 AM

"Yasin is right. Islamic thought has for centuries distinguished between the greater jihad, which does indeed refer to the individual's spiritual battle to bring his life into conformity with Allah's commands, from the lesser jihad, which Yasin refers to as the "struggle for social justice." In published reports about his speech, it's not clear whether he mentions that Islam has always allowed for this struggle to take a violent turn. Islamic Fun! is an indication of this violent element at Islam's heart. "

well, just to make this very clear " if you witness a 'monkar' change it with your hands, if you couldn't, then you shall change it with your tongue, and if you couldn't , then change it with your heart ( as in pray for it to change' "

the hadeeth didn't even mentointhe word jihad , and yet, it incourages muslims to change what they believe is wrong with their HANDS as a first option, the rest just descends from their inability. so for example, if a muslim state gets nuclear weapon, the first thing it should do is bomb a counry it doesn't agree with. i mean the word monkar is too general and there is an indifinite number to the things muslims consider wrong.

who said muslims don't acknowledge violence as a way to change what's wrong and do the right thing? they're not against the word violance, they're just against the word terrorism 'cause it might bring war upon them. if it came to me, i don't give a sh*** what they do in their lands, as long as that doesn't get to lands outside their borders. otherwise, which is what we witness nowadays, they should be stopped.

Posted by: night_side_eclipse at March 9, 2006 5:22 AM

dear islamabadger:

Since you and your ilk appear to have silenced the voices of each and every follower of Islam aside from myself on this forum, I will take it upon myself as the token Muslim to answer your request:

***
"WHEREAS:
As a Muslim, I am deeply ashamed of the actions of Hamas in launching this despicable website, despite not being able to confirm that the above-mentioned website exists. I apologize for this sites existence. It is all my fault because I am a Muslim, and I did not do everything within, between, and beyond my power to stop Hamas from displaying hate-filled statements where they can reach the eyes of children everywheres;

and WHEREAS:
As a Muslim, I am deeply ashamed of the actions of Muslims in using Islam to enact acts of violence. I apologize for all acts of violence that have been, are being, and will be committed by Muslims in the name of Islam, in whatever place such violence occurs. It is all my fault because I am a Muslim, and I did not do everything within, between, and beyond my power to stop it.

and FURTHERMORE:
and a Human, I am deeply ashamed of the actions of all Humans in using any reason or emotion or organizational system whatsoever to enact acts of violence on Mankind. I apologize for all acts of violence that have been, are being, and will be committed by Humans, in whatever place such violence occurs. It is all my fault because I am a Human, and I did not do everything within, between, and beyond my power to stop it.

***
pc enough for ya?

now can somebody PLEASE send a *working* link to that website? I need it for an article.

Posted by: jehana at March 9, 2006 6:48 AM

If there really was a god out there I think it's about time for some thunderbolts.
Where's Thor when you need him

Posted by: marilyn at March 9, 2006 7:56 AM

jehana:

Whether you are a student or a journalist doing research, try learning how to search the net yourself.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at March 9, 2006 9:08 AM

Jehena -- such obviously devoid and insincere apologies just don't cut it from Muslims. Not any more, and certainly not here.

I especially like that the perfect little graphic you employed... that clever little "***"... the toggle on and off for your dripping sarcasm and overdone umbrage and falseness -- SOOO quintessentiallyy Muslim -- Thanks for illustrating what you do mentally so easily every day in the land of war... the facile turning on and turning off of your ad hoc tu qoque Taqiya -- that purely insincere purely Muslim purely poisonous disengenuousness taught to you from birth -- And thank you for the especially bitter flavor of the post, and the especially twisted Muslim way you appear to do one thing while you're really doing another -- in this case appearing to apologize while deftly concocting a fairytale about your victimology at the unfair hands of posters here --

It's all transparent to me, though. Putrid Muslim filth posted by a well oiled practitioner.

Oh -- And that truculent little flare at the end -- that snotty demand for "somebody" to "PLEASE send a *working* link to that website? I need it for an article." Sweet touch! Perfect!

A spoiled Muslim brat who, you say elsewhere, is accustomed to getting others to do things for her.... Don't tell me -- a Saudi? Or just feigning to be one...? A Wahhabi Wannabe? How sweet!

Thanks for this splendid subtle and exquisite tour of your considerable Islamic crafts...

Posted by: jsla at March 9, 2006 5:43 PM

jsla:

you are welcome to express your opinions if they make you feel better. i'll do my best to keep on topic in the future.

Posted by: jehana at March 10, 2006 12:57 AM

and i reiterate my apology for the actions of Hamas. Violent jihad is spreading like a cancer within Islam, and i do feel i should commit myself to doing all that i can to stop it.

From my perspective the solely military response advocated by some on this site is a poor solution, because it will increase cohesion in the Islamist community and win further adherents to the Arab cycle of rage which you yourself brought up and made some excellent points on. You seem to be entering such a cycle of rage yourself in the last post.
Why so emotional? That energy would be much better expressed by using your mind to figure out real solutions to the very real problem of violent jihad.

Posted by: jehana at March 10, 2006 1:56 AM

and i reiterate my apology for the actions of Hamas. Violent jihad is spreading like a cancer within Islam, and i do feel i should commit myself to doing all that i can to stop it.
Posted by: jehana at March 10, 2006 01:56 AM

If you feel that way and are not just here spouting taqiya, why don’t you do all you can by leaving Islam and taking all those who will listen with you. Accept that the teachings are fundamentally corrupt, move on and find something else. Only by people rejecting the teachings as being morally bankrupt will you kill this cancer.

Your failure to do this just highlights your intellectual dishonesty and thus your credibility.

Posted by: km at March 10, 2006 2:42 AM

jehana;

The emotion of jsla may come from knowledge of Islam. The practice of deception in Islam makes for the rejection of anything stated from a muslum.

Surely you can understand this. And you may be honest and a good person, how are we to know?

Your words are good, and I agree with them.

"You claim to follow the faith, this is probally very true...

Just a matter of others point of view."

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at March 10, 2006 2:49 AM

&
- -
`
v

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at March 10, 2006 2:57 AM

You may believe that all practicioners of Islam believe lying is ok. That is your opinion. I was raised to believe in the value of honesty. That is my opinion.

Judge my words as you will, there still is no way to tell if someone is lying about their opinions on the internet.

Please note that if we stick to rational discussion based on verifiable facts, this becomes a non-issue.

Which brings us back to the purpose of this site. Robert works hard to put out articles which are factually based to raise the awareness of the general public about the dangers of jihad. What are we doing in the comments section to help him enhance the credibility of this site with the world at large?

Posted by: jehana at March 10, 2006 11:50 AM

"Judge my words as you will, there still is no way to tell if someone is lying about their opinions on the internet."

Indeed -- and I did judge your words... Only that. I judged your sarcastic false apology above, and I challenged the classic Muslim ploy of depicting youself as some kind of victim at this site. You were not apologizing in that post, nor are you a victim at this site.

But leaving aside such dissimulation -- I always wonder what Muslims imagine they are accomplishing by posting at sites such as this? Why come here? If, as you seem to acknowlege, there are SERIOUS problems among your fellow Muslims, then why come here to try and convince us of anything. Why not take your cause to those "misunderstanders" of your "religion"?

I propose the following challenge for you: If you are an example of a "moderate Muslim", and if you wish for your religion to be better understood, and if you agree that the heinous barbarity we see from immoderate Muslims across the globe emerges from their mangling of your "religion", then why do you spend your time trying to make US understand your religion better rather than those immoderate Muslims? It seems the problem resides with them!

That is, unless you also subscribe to the idea that OUR misunderstanding of Islam has something to do with the barbarism and heinousness of those "immoderate Muslims."

See the problem? You shouldn't be trying to convince us of anything --- we aren't the ones going around kidnapping, deliberately killing innocents for the sake of our "religion", or getting a bad rap because we so deeply misunderstand the underpinnings of our own ideologies... That's a MUSLIM problem. As such, you, and all the others like you, all the other supposedly "moderate" Muslims need to go out into the world, and explain to the violent misunderstanders exactly what they misunderstand, why they misunderstand, and why it's important to stop misunderstanding Islam until they stop their ever spiraling ever more heinous atrocities.

If THAT can be accomplished, my fine feathered friend, then I assure you, sites like this and all the "infidel" agnst you see would vanish in an instant like a bad dream -- and we could go merrily along --- tra la la la la...

Posted by: jsla at March 10, 2006 12:25 PM

Judge my words as you will, there still is no way to tell if someone is lying about their opinions on the internet.
Posted by: jehana at March 10, 2006 11:50 AM

Maybe it is difficult to tell if someone is lying but it is possible to some extent to determine how rational someone is. I believe as most people do here that Islamic teachings at their very core are totalitarian. Where Islam becomes the dominant cultural practice, human beings, freedom and progress all become limited. All this is a consequence of believing the words in the Koran to be the incorruptible word of God. You have no theological room for maneuver.

Which brings us back to the point where although there maybe nice people who think that Islam is a harmless religion to practice, many are still capable of taking the same book and using the words within it to justify supremacism, expansion of the ideology through force, misogyny and acts of barbarism disguised as justice. If you accept that there is a problem within Islam you need to accept that the problem is Islam it’s self.

Here is your great struggle; if Allah truly exists do you think he would want you today to practice Islam in its current form, not just the cuddly bits but the nasty bits to. Why don’t you make the ultimate sacrifice for your greater Jihad (the inner jihad) accept that the teachings are untenable as a solution to life in this plane or the next and reject them as a way to show other Muslims that the path to God is not through the Koran but through self examination of the morals and schemas which we live our life by and rejection of those which through their enactment cause harm and repression to others.

Posted by: km at March 10, 2006 12:55 PM

But her Koran and her "religion" has made the severest provisions against exactly what you propose -- she's stuck like a specimen lanced with a pin... Go to a online Koran, one which you can search such as:

www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

Put in a word like "astray" and see that there are 68 lines referring to being lead astray in some fashion or another. The Muslim, if he/she follows that execrable book, has no recourse whatsoever to follow his/her personal conscience, or his/her personal rationality. The book REJECTS these faculties repeatedly, and severly threatens "believers" over and over and over again. It is a harsh unforgiving document, despite the mindless repetition that "Allah is forgiving". There are few examples of forgiveness in their execrable book, but it is replete with threats and menace. In fact, it is so replete with punishments for apostacy, and severe warnings not to go "astray", that any practitioner of this "religion" is pinnioned -- relentlessly -- mercilessly -- by the Will of Allah himself -- the "revealed" word of their so-called "god" is altogether immutable. Any Muslim who disagrees is a liar and an apostate by Allah's creed, not just by the "interpretation" of those who are thought to be "misunderstanders" or "extremists". If they are "misunderstanders" or "extremists", then Islam's god Allah is the worst of the bunch!

Since I deplore quoting from their execrable book here,I leave it to the reader to go to sites such as the one mentioned above and find out more... Put in the word "astray" and read -- read the chapters -- read the "context" those Muslims always complain about -- see for yourselves what these people believe, and why they are the way they are. It's altogether jawdropping, eye opening head splitting fun...

Posted by: jsla at March 10, 2006 1:26 PM

Maybe it is difficult to tell if someone is lying but it is possible to some extent to determine how rational someone is. I believe as most people do here that Islamic teachings at their very core are totalitarian. Where Islam becomes the dominant cultural practice, human beings, freedom and progress all become limited. All this is a consequence of believing the words in the Koran to be the incorruptible word of God. You have no theological room for maneuver.

Posted by: km at March 10, 2006 12:55 PM

man, could you please give me a break? ALL RELEGIONS tend to want to dominate. if the west never managed to seperate religion from state, we would have still b een living cursades. the problem with Islam is, it's adherents can't manage to isolate their states from any religious effect, quite the contrary, the more the world develops, the deeper their societies sink in religious dark backword dreams , on their way back to the anceint ages. Jihad is in the core of the muslim religion, just like strife is in every other religion. what different does it make if green banners, or crosses were carried during a war? it's war after all and it's disgusting. but all we see nowadays is green banners, which is the problem. i don't care who wants to dominate, as long as these just remain as wild dreams. but muslims force us all to live their dreams, while other religions don't. Jehana, please, you know it's bullshi** would u please cut it and just quit that religion if u know it's wrong?

Posted by: night_side_eclipse at March 10, 2006 2:36 PM