If Russia falls to this so called religion,you better get ready. And watch the pres elect for America, will want to disarm all of the United States. Just to get along. Were all of one faith you know.

Posted by: AMartinez at March 16, 2006 8:57 PM

One thing Islam can never and will never do is conform to norms coming from non-Muslims. It just isn't going to happen; Muslims in fact usually maintain that allah won't allow it to happen. And by the same token neither is a reformation of Islam coming. An Islamic reformation likewise amounts to a compromise of directives from allah per the Holy Kuran.

It's not in the cards. That's what this guy is tipping us off about.

Posted by: pythagoras at March 16, 2006 9:00 PM

Where in America has anyone seen this "American Islam"? This Yezhova person is manufacturing a straw horse (and it better not be a straw hobby horse, I reckon --kidding :) ) to attack. If this "American Islam" actually existed in America, wouldn't it be obvious? Wouldn't we be seeing and hearing American muslims emphasize a distinction between church and state (so-to-speak)? There was that guy Ishak, and the other man from New Zealand, and Irshad Manji, and a scattering of individuals without islamic leadership credentials or followings.

Yezhova is in a fantasiya. Or, she is more likely interested in forestalling any such ideas in Russia.

The easy and rapid worldwide dissemination of such anti-reform rhetoric is here again aided by modern global technology: the downside of the internet.

Posted by: del at March 16, 2006 9:15 PM

I slam you slam we all slam for Islam!

Posted by: jsla at March 16, 2006 9:22 PM

LOL, a western woman telling muslims what to think? Good luck to her!

Posted by: Lili at March 16, 2006 10:27 PM

Such a reduced Sunday-school kind of faith, she continues, is based on the proposition that its followers "in general should not relate their understandings about justice, the nation, governance or war" with the provisions of Islam. Instead, they should see the religion as simply "a collection of ritual practices" rather than a set of vital ideas.

On islamic websites where I have debated, this is often the criticism of levelled at Chritians, Jews and others. The moslem proudly proclaims for us our religion of islam is a while you (any other group) regard religion as something you go to for one hour a week and do not think of yourreligion at any other time.

My response is that the moslem confuses total way of life with total regulation of life. For me, as a Roman Catholic, religion is not about going to church every Sunday morning, saying a few ritualistic prayers, receiving Communion then going out to breakfast for pancakes and eggs. My religion is also not about trying to impose a political agenda on anyone else.

For my, my religion is a total way of life, one that guides my morals and ethics in my daily encounters with family, friends, co-workers, business associates and adversaries, and obnoxious drivers and bus passengers. In other words, I endeavor, although not always satisfactorily, to apply the morals and ethics of Christianity to my daily routine. For me, secularism is a system of laws that has evolved over time that allow me and those fo other faiths freedom to practice our respective religions, and use them as our moral beacon.

It is not any coincidence that supposedly normal people, witness the Iranian student at UNC and the earlier suicide bomber in a Cairo bazaar among others, who have later decide to become religious and more knowledgeable of their islamic faith, are the ones, having become immersed in this total regulation of life are the ones who commit criminal and anti-human attrocities. Regulation does not provide a moral beacon for the religious moslem by which to make a value judgment, the judgment has been made for the moslem, all as recorded in one tiny book for all time.

The more religious the moslem, the more he begins to resemble bin Laden & Co. If one were to live out their Christian teachings to the fullest, I suppose they would begin to resemble Mother Teresa.

Posted by: Lisa at March 16, 2006 10:30 PM

There is no definite agreement on what it means to be a Muslim.

I interact with a number of Muslims, and they all stress that Islam is a "direct personal relationship with God."

However, it is funny that a white Western Muslim revert would have the audacity to blast "American Islam" which is gaining a following and even notoriety on Al Jazeera where the likes of Asra Nomani have talked about mixed prayer jumaahs held in New York even despite violence, death threats, and protests from other Muslims.

White Western Muslim reverts annoy me for the most part, they always have the audacity to tell cultural Muslims the deficiencies in their observance.

If "American Islam" is becoming more noted in the Muslim world, this is a good development, even if the Reformation is marginal, its existence has proven that some Muslims can break away from a medieval "Medinan Model."

Posted by: pikachu at March 16, 2006 10:39 PM

Muslim imams have no credentials, there is no priesthood and no central body of authority, the Sunnah and Hadith guide Muslim theology, but not all Muslims agree that all Hadith are valid and authentic. A Muslim can reject one school of thought in preference for another, a Muslim can easily ignore one imam and his khutba for that of another that is more to their liking.

Posted by: pikachu at March 16, 2006 10:43 PM

"I interact with a number of Muslims, and they all stress that Islam is a "direct personal relationship with God."
-- from a posting above

Of course they do. With you. What else would you expect them to do? Why would they talk of anything else? Why would they go near the subject of the correct relation between Believer and Infidel, Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam? Why would they talk about the less savory aspects of Muhammad's life, a life that they are taught must be the Model of the Perfect Man?

Posted by: Hugh at March 16, 2006 11:04 PM

Ouch! One bad html tag and a whole paragraph goes chei kuck. First paragraph should read:

On islamic websites where I have debated, this is often the criticism levelled at Christians, Jews and others. The moslem proudly proclaims our religion of islam is a total way of life while you (any other group) regard religion as something you go to for one hour a week and do not think of your religion at any other time.

pikachu,

you must watch out for the way moslems use common words and phrases to mean something different from the normal understanding. Think martyr and peace, among others.

A "direct personal relationship with God" for me means keeping the teachings of God in my heart to find a moral beacon.

For a moslem this personal relationship is one of total submission, requiring one to be regulated like a brain dead zombie. The ideal moslem state of consciousness is to be a slave of allah. The moderately appearing moslem may use this phrase, and the meaning may then appear to be more of a relationship, but the moderate has not totally submitted.

We should not try find the elusive moderate moslem, but endeavor to find the secular moslem. The moderate still believes that the non-moslem must be subjected and submissive to islam, the moderate just doesn't get violent about it. The securalist believes islam is just another belief system in the mix of multifaith and nonfaith society.

Posted by: Lisa at March 16, 2006 11:13 PM

"We should not try find the elusive moderate moslem, but endeavor to find the secular moslem."

Well put, Lisa. I'm interested in the Free Muslims Coalition, who seem to represent secular muslims. Have you checked out their site? This type of muslim might be our only hope from within Islam.

Posted by: Lili at March 16, 2006 11:28 PM

Here is an offensive cartoon for muslims everywhere....
http://www.zipperfish.net/free/yaafm12.php

Posted by: Carolyn2 at March 16, 2006 11:35 PM

I read the article concerning this woman's pronouncements and I just don't get it. She speaks of the need to adhere rigorously to sharia, as if this were the solution to all problems. Has she no eyes to see? Does she hold Saudi Arabia up as a lamp unto the nations? Puhleeze!

I have little understanding of why anyone, in full psychological and moral health would convert to Islam. But why particularly would any non-Moslem woman do so, when their life would be so dominated by men? Why aren't there more Western women reaching out to Moslem immigrant women, to offer them some understanding that there is a another possibility for them, to plant seeds of a better way, for their children, themselves and eventually even their husbands. Not Sharia, but the Golden Rule.

Posted by: Chatillon at March 16, 2006 11:50 PM

Pythagoras says:-
"One thing Islam can never and will never do is conform to norms coming from non-Muslims. It just isn't going to happen".

Absolutely.There is nothing called "secular islam".It is as non existent as *piping hot icecream*.It is no religion.Just a diabolical death cult.

When they need time and resources to consolidate and fortify themselves,would indulge in such inane pretentious rethink,period.Just the right stimulus presented would metamorphose all 'seculars or moderates' into rabid killers.As they are inherently ,potentially desensitized and ruthless.

Posted by: CrowsandCows at March 17, 2006 12:48 AM

Re: Chatillon's thought: "I have little understanding of why anyone, in full psychological and moral health would convert to Islam." Here are my thoughts.

First, the Islamic world has been getting ever more powerful over the last 100 years because of oil and population growth. And people are attracted to power and domination. If they are convinced history is on Islam's side, they might tend toward it for that reason alone. Second, the relative youth of the Muslim world--the so-called Youth Bulge--gives Islam a kind of "coolness" that attracts other young people. Third, many people don't like or don't benefit from globalized Western-style capitalism and Islam, like Communism before it, looks like a useful counterforce. That fact that Islam, like Communism before it, is an even more oppressive system doesn't bother them because they expect to come out on top. George Bush's policies in the name of freedom--his America-only "preemptive attack" doctrine, the unprovoked invasion of Iraq, presidential suspension of American and international law and torture--and his overall incompetence have been of great value to Islamists in the war of ideas. Fourth, people are herd animals and will often join in because other people are doing it. That's the only reason kids start smoking. Fifth, women converts in liberal democracies can gain all these "benefits" without losing their rights under secular law. So long as these countries remain predominantly non-Muslim and apostasy is officially protected, they will have an escape hatch. Sixth, some people feel burdened by freedom (like deciding among Baskin Robbins' 31 flavors) and Islam offers a demanding regimen that will relieve them of that burden. Seventh, Islam is easy to propagate as a simple faith: one god, one prophet, one umma (as in "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer") whereas Christianity is well-known for its complications, such as the Trinity. Finally, Islam has a smaller (or no) gap between theory and practice. Christians preach love but kill their enemies. Muslims preach killing their enemies and, by gosh, they really do what they say. And they really stop everything to pray five times a day. And they really go to Mecca. How many Christians fast, go on pilgrimage, give all they have to the poor or avoid temptation?

Posted by: sceptico at March 17, 2006 12:52 AM

The cartoon is very funny. Muslims however are not. I am amazed at their collective lack of a sense humor. Must be all that shame and repression....Oh well, if Big Brother is reading or keeping tabs on any of us......forward an 8th grade version of the world of shit we are in to the White House please.

Posted by: WIDEAWAKE at March 17, 2006 12:53 AM

Has she got some sort of quota system? Have not the US muslims produced enough hate filled thugs? Have not the US muslims generated enough home grown subversives? What ever happened to the old Yankee can-do spirit? Or is our melting pot turned too high?

Posted by: JaimeZepeda at March 17, 2006 12:54 AM

Caroline, I the link was hilarious but also a little over the top in terms of being offensive.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 12:55 AM

Wow, that link is pretty over the top. I was a little offended.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 1:00 AM

Crows, I know one US servicemember in Korea right now who is about take his shahada this coming April when he returns to the States.

He is very patriotic, I've even encountered prior military Veterans who are Muslims now.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 1:03 AM

I work with youth, and many have converted to Islam despite their family's Christian upbringing and disapproval.

For many of these youth, they feel a spiritual void and well Islam feels that void, but they are also attracted to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. I see that their myspace pages are filled with pictures which glorify mujahideen and now with the emergence of Islamic hip hop from Soldiers of Allah to Native Deen, and the anger I see them express to me, I notice their is a generational divide between a more "moderate" older generation who were more culturally inclined Muslims than their children, who even have issues with how their parents view Islam.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 1:07 AM

From MEMRI, a video about a suicide bomber...note he is smiling and happy. And these people live among us...why..

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1037wmv&ak=null

Posted by: Abby at March 17, 2006 1:10 AM

I work with at-risk youth, and being Buddhist they these young budding jihadis try to convert me. Funny thing is, many of them are white, blonde hair, blue eyes, freckles, etc.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 1:12 AM

Carolyn2 that was a very funny cartoon. I am I guess one of those annoying Christians. But I definetly don't carry big sticks or dirty bombs.
I can see that if you can't laugh at yourself then don't watch that cartoon.

Anway, Islam cannot reform because it has nothing good within it to reform to.
You simply make it a watered down version of itself which makes it not really Islam.

Posted by: disciple at March 17, 2006 2:09 AM

Abby, how pathetic is that video especially the end. The poor sap was filled with all kinds of propaganda and sent on a suicide mission. The whole time he is being filmed and the filmers are saying Allah Akbar, God Is Great. How sad and pathetic that this what they think God would want them to do.

Posted by: disciple at March 17, 2006 2:18 AM

pikachu

Apart from what Hugh said, use a little common sense.

Let's say you were someone who believed that everybody should be forcibly converted into Buddhism. Let's say that you believed that Buddhism should be the only religion lawfully practiced anywhere. Let's say that you thought that it is okay for non-Buddhists to convert to Buddhism, and even to be forced into it, but that if a Buddhist were to convert out of it, (s)he deserves to be killed - executed, if (s)he lived in a Buddhist country, or murdered by his/her relatives if (s)he lived in a non Buddhist country. Oh, and in this thought experiment, let's say that instead of the noble 8-fold path, what Siddhartha believed paralleled the beliefs of Chengiz Khan.

Now, say you were having a conversation with a non-Buddhist, who heard about all these practices that Buddhists supposedly follow.

Would you tell him about everything mentioned above?

Posted by: Infidel Pride at March 17, 2006 3:31 AM

I am agree with Lisa, very well put.

Posted by: Franze at March 17, 2006 3:55 AM

Viele Dank, Franze

Posted by: Lisa at March 17, 2006 4:03 AM

which connotes power, subordination and devotion

Perhaps Anastasia is nostalgic for the good old days of Comrade Stalin. Obviously, Islam is just the ticket for someone who thinks in terms of domination and subordination rather than in Kantian terms of "respect for persons".

I can't think many Russians will find such a conversion appealing, however.

Posted by: Yojimbo at March 17, 2006 4:07 AM

BTW - dhimmitude at the University of California, Los Angeles.

Can you imagine a page of information on the Silk Road that hardly mentions Buddhism? And look what it says about you-know-what:

In the 7th century, a new influence began to dominate the area of Central Asia-the Islam religion. This new religion, which was based on the life experiences of the Prophet Muhammad, quickly spread throughout the Middle East and Central Asia. The conquests of the Muslim Empire unified the area from Arabia in the west to Kashgar China in the east. With the safety brought by unity, the Muslim merchants traveled freely throughout these regions, trading their wares and spreading their beliefs.

http://www.isop.ucla.edu/eas/sum-inst/links/silkunit.htm

No mention that under the T'ang the city of Ch'ang-an was a place where Nestorians, Manicheans, Zoroastrians, Hindus and Jews were permitted to freely build and freely worship. Hardly the merest hint that Islam "quickly spread" by fire and the sword. The word "conquest" eventually makes a shy appearance - but that, it seems, was all right because it meant "unity". No whisper of a suggestion that, together with the drying-up of streams, Islam was one of the reasons for the death of the oasis towns of the Taklamakan.

Here's (Peter Hopkirk: Foreign Devils on the Silk Road).

But the ultimate reasons for the disappearance of the Buddhist civilization from the Silk Road were the decline and eventual collapse of the T'ang Dynasty, the victories of the Arabs to the west and the final conversion of the whole Taklamakan region to Islam. The advance of this new religion along the Silk road spelled the death of figurative art ... for this was anathema to Moslems. Many statues and wall-paintings were damaged or destroyed by these iconoclasts, while temples and stupas were left to crumble and vanish beneath the sand.

The British Library avoids the issue with euphemisms - spread and decline:

http://idp.bl.uk/education/buddhism/background/history.html

But I think UCLA takes the biscuit. Shame on them.

While we're on the topic of Buddhism, many people know that large collections of Ancient Indian Buddhist scriptures were taken from Tibet to India to save them from being destroyed by the Communists. But do many people think to ask why so many Indian texts were in Tibet in the first place - it's not the first time these texts have faced destruction.

Posted by: Yojimbo at March 17, 2006 4:33 AM

India is the homeland of the Buddha, Buddhism suffered persecution in the hands of Muslims and Hindus, especially from the Brahmin priesthood who despised Buddhism, since we reject the Vedas and the Vedic tradition of India.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 8:31 AM

Carolyn2 that was a very funny cartoon. I am I guess one of those annoying Christians. But I definetly don't carry big sticks or dirty bombs.
I can see that if you can't laugh at yourself then don't watch that cartoon.
Exactly disciple, I am a Christian too. I laugh at the cartoons that claim Christians are a danger because it is so improbable. And yes, the cartoon is rather vile...but we have heard all the words used in it, words don't hurt me...that is the difference between us and islam.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at March 17, 2006 12:09 PM

jsla: You mean the "I slam Islam" club?? Lots of us slam Islam!

Posted by: pythagoras at March 17, 2006 1:46 PM

I attended UCLA, that is my alma mater as an undergraduate.

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 1:53 PM

a big problem for the "American Muslims" is that they lack organization when compared to the Islamists. Just as the West is currently lacking in organization when compared to the Islamists.

not organized = getting muscled out by more organized people who disagree with your beliefs.

Jsla, slam away! i love your "oily, slanderous, taquiya" catcalls, they're hilarious......

Posted by: jehana at March 17, 2006 5:38 PM

a big problem for the "American Muslims" is that they lack organization when compared to the Islamists. Just as the West is currently lacking in organization when compared to the Islamists.

not organized = getting muscled out by more organized people who disagree with your beliefs.

Jsla, slam away! i love your "oily, decrepit, Muslim, taquiya" catcalls, they're hilarious......

Posted by: jehana at March 17, 2006 5:39 PM

"To-morrow in the battle think on me,
And fall thy edgeless sword: despair, and die!"

In that order, exactly.

Posted by: jsla at March 17, 2006 5:56 PM

(Wasn't your first post stilted enough already?)

Posted by: jsla at March 17, 2006 5:59 PM

You guys should realize that American Islam is something we should promote, many Buddhists I know have reverted to Islam but they retain their meditations.

These people are the future of Islam that I think we should encourage, I know British deejays in the Sufi trance/groove scene who are producing some excellent dervish dub music.

Islam will be softened in the West, as more educated people embrace Islam, they will have an impact on showing a different face of Islam. Perhaps this is bidah (innovation) and straying from the "Medinan Model," but wouldn't we rather want to see this form of Islam become the vogue in the Muslim world?

Posted by: pikachu at March 17, 2006 9:33 PM

"Islam will be softened in the West, as more educated people embrace Islam, they will have an impact on showing a different face of Islam. Perhaps this is bidah (innovation) and straying from the "Medinan Model," but wouldn't we rather want to see this form of Islam become the vogue in the Muslim world?"
-- from a posting above

A false and dangerous hope. How will Islam be "softened in the West"? Will the contents of the Sira change? Will the Hadith change? Will the Qur'an change? Do we have evidence that the children of the first generation of Muslims in Europe are "softer" in their beliefs, or much more extreme, than their often lax or unobservant parents?

We can't take the spread of Islam, for there is no guarantee, no way to assure, that "moderate" Muslims will not morph, for some reasons we can predict and for others that we cannot possibly predict, into "immoderate" Muslims. Their presence is itself a danger to the laws, customs, manners, understandings of Infidels.

The large-scale presence of Muslims in the Lands of the Infidels has already led, and will only worsen, a situation of much greater unpleasantness, expense, and physical insecurity for all Infidels, both the indigenous population and other non-Muslim immigrants (Chinese, Hindus, etc.). There is no reason why the Infidels should be expected to endure this. On what theory? That it simply must be, that there is nothing to be done?

Nonsense.

Posted by: Hugh at March 18, 2006 12:58 AM

Hugh,

You just acknowledged an intergenerational difference between the parental Muslim, less radicalized generation and the Muslim youth generation which is more radicalized.

So though JIHAD is seen as a religious duty in its seven distinct manifestations, something has went fowl with contemporary Islam.

Well now we are getting pass the stereotypes and over-generalizations which were once stated about Irish and German Catholics being subversive and loyal to the Vatican or Jews who were out to dominate the world.

Posted by: pikachu at March 18, 2006 6:31 PM