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Kabul Bloodlust Update: "Mood hardens against Afghan convert," from BBC News, with thanks to Null:
...Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.
Please, BBC, give us another interpretation. All the schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree on this issue.
"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge."Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website....
And Islam is so peaceful, tolerant, and kind that we will murder him very sweetly if he doesn't.
Tiny Minority of Extremists Alert:
But the bigger problem confronting the president is that an overwhelming number of ordinary Afghans appear to believe Mr Rahman has erred and deserves to be executed.
If the death penalty for apostasy were not mainstream Islamic law, would this be the case?
At Friday prayers in mosques across the Afghan capital, the case of Abdul Rahman and the consequent international outcry is the hot topic of discussion and the centrepiece of sermons."We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.
"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."...
"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.
Well, Abdul, for starters, the fact that people like you will want to kill someone who does convert.
"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."Few were willing to listen to the growing condemnation in the West.
"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.
US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.
That cuts no ice with Mr Qadir.
"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."
Posted by Robert at March 24, 2006 11:38 AM
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Listen to these words from "the religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity":
- should be killed
- deserves to be executed
- must be punished
- should be put to death
Are Muslims mad? Or are we the ones who are mad because we continually look for that grain of logic in their contradictory utterances?
Posted by: Jen![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at March 24, 2006 12:00 PM
It looks like some sort of asylum is the only compromise that might work. This would create an interesting precedent. I am not sure if it would be good; plenty of Muslims could just pretend they are leaving Islam, and get refugee status. Those that are sincere would no doubt make great citizens where ever they end up. Those that are not could cause, well, the same kind of trouble that sincere Muslims cause everywhere they go.
America represents hope to so many people around the world. If we become an escape hatch to the tyranny of Islam, we might end up with a flood, one we could not possibly accomodate. There would still be a backlog of apostates who would queue up in the Dar al Islam, waiting to either be murdered of flee.
In the end, it would be a pathetically comic situation. And as we all know, the devil can't stand to be mocked. I for one would welcome Rahman.
Quijybo
Posted by: Quijybo at March 24, 2006 12:02 PM
"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad"
So... what's been going on up 'til now, the Ice Capades?
Posted by: Shinoliite at March 24, 2006 12:05 PM
Now would be a good time for Moslems in the West to repudiate such treatment of apostates from Islam, universally, now and henceforward.
Let Western Moslems stand together with their fellow citizens of the West, raising their voices for freedom of conscience.
Or will the world be treated to more deafening silence from Western Moslems or to the mealy-mouthed double-talk "We are sympathetic to Mr. Rahman's circumstances, but...?"
Cartoons elicited more outrage from the Western Moslem community than does this situation. Shame on them! Hypocrites all!
Posted by: Chatillon at March 24, 2006 12:08 PM
"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. "
Where did I hear this before?
The more a silly statement is mention, the more it is proven to be false. As it was said in the above commetary, " that cuts no ice ".
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at March 24, 2006 12:13 PM
The press and politicians, although they can no longer ignore the fact that Islam is not a 'religion of peace', haven't quite come to grips with the true extent of this problem.
Assuming that Condi and Hamid are able to manipulate a 'good outcome' for this man, how will they handle the next attempt to punish an apostate, and the one after that, and all those that will follow.
The Afghan constitution won't be changed in our lifetimes, that nation will remain an Islamic state operating under Islamic law, and these incidents will continue.
The best thing about this whole affair is that it is getting worldwide attention.
Posted by: PRCS at March 24, 2006 12:13 PM
Martyr this Christian and the whole West will wake up as if from a deep sleep. We are all beginning to see that these are people who don't share the most fundamental sense of what 'goodness' means.
Rahman and others are ready to show them a real martyr is not some demented teenager blowing up an ice cream parlor full of kids so he can go to the Great Whorehouse in the Sky.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at March 24, 2006 12:15 PM
I just love the way the BBC, AFP, Reuters, and The Economist respectfully refer to bloodthirsty Islamists in Afghanistan or Iran as "religious conservatives" while members of the Likud party in Israel and anti-immigration parties in Europe are always "far-right extremists".
Posted by: Charles Martel at March 24, 2006 12:16 PM
[sarcasm mode on] The cry of outrage from 'moderate muslims' on this latest outrage from their jehadi brothers is deafening! [sarcasm mode off]
Posted by: Razdan at March 24, 2006 12:16 PM
what do muslims have to do before public opinion regards them as wicked and backward. We know that a majority in many muslim nations support the murder of americans, we know that they treat women like slaves, we know that moslems are currently perpetrating a holocaust against blacks in Sudan....and now they are executing someone for converting to christianity... Why aren't people in the streets shouting " ISLAM IS AN EVIL FORCE!" "ISLAM IS TERROR!"
Well, I shout it online- "ISLAM IS AN EVIL FORCE!"
at March 24, 2006 12:22 PM
"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."
--Mohammed Qadir, [islamic] worshipper
"The persecution of Christians . . . targets innocent civilians . . . . This persecution is jihad — the same jihad that is being fought today by terrorists worldwide. Wishful thinking has gone far enough, and ultimately will get us nowhere."
--Robert Spencer
"Welcome to Jihad Watch," October 28, 2003
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/000001.php
Seems to me we already have jihad in Afghanistan, according to Robert Spencer's definition of this practice which is central to the ideology known as Islam.
The [Muslim] worshipper's threat is tautological.
Posted by: unicorns62000 at March 24, 2006 12:23 PM
I would like to burn the Koran in a public place but I don't want to die just yet.Is it illegal to burn any book in public? Any other suggestions? Graffiti maybe? Some kind of publicly visible campaign rejecting this demented collective brain death is necessary,to show these maniacs there is a resistance to deal with.
Posted by: samson at March 24, 2006 12:32 PM
poetcomic1:
Martyr this Christian and the whole West will wake up as if from a deep sleep.I wish I could share your optimism, but many will continue to attribute it to a lack of education, to U.S. foreign policy -- to anything except the following, and more:
Bukhari V4 B52 N260:
The Prophet said, "If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him."
Ishaq 551:
The Messenger ordered Miqyas' assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam.
Bukhari V9, B83, N17:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
at March 24, 2006 12:34 PM
I'm sorry, that didn't read well. I didn't mean to link optimism to the event that this man is killed. I meant the awakening.
Posted by: Null at March 24, 2006 12:35 PM
"This is a Muslim country. The state is Muslim, people are Muslim 99%," says Judge Ansarullah.
Well, let’s do the math.
Afghanistan’s population is approximately 3 million people, which leaves 300 thousand apostates just ripe for prosecution and eventual public executions.
Condi and Hamid will have their hands full.
at March 24, 2006 12:42 PM
I publicly take back anything good I ever said about islam, they really are hopeless.
Posted by: Ronin at March 24, 2006 12:44 PM
For your perusal: the world's largest death squad (in this case operating in Kabul, Afghanistan) at work yet again in.....the Twilight Zone!
Posted by: pythagoras at March 24, 2006 12:44 PM
It seems pretty obvious to me that Islam is contrary to the fundamental beliefs of our country. Shouldn't the Congress limit the immigration of people who do not believe in our basic tenets and actually hate our way of life? In the old days of quotas and other restrictions, criminals and prostitutes couldn't immigrate to the U.S. Why should we continue to let people come here who believe in a religion which is counter to our national beliefs?
Maybe it should be determined that Islam is a theocratic organization whose primary activity is not religion. As an institution it behaves differently than what is commonly thought of as a religion. Let's define what Islam is by what it does in the real world. If it quacks like a duck...
We believe in the freedom of religion and should let all people who believe in that freedom enter. This includes people who change religions. The freedom is the key. Islam denies that freedom (among others) and I don't think we need any more of them entering the U.S.
Posted by: Traverse at March 24, 2006 12:46 PM
Make that 30 million people.
As an aside, MSNBC is conducting a poll about this, and they've asked if the US should become involved in this situation.
Only 36 percent of respondents feel that we should.
One respondent, named Pachek (probably not Irish) stated that US law is not the law around the world, and that we should not become involved.
More from the brain dead, booger eating moron crowd.
Posted by: PRCS at March 24, 2006 12:46 PM
Mr. Rahman’s trial and the controversy surrounding it is good news. Better yet, it is GREAT NEWS! Not because Mr. Rahman is actually guilty of a real crime (such as stealing, murdering, child molesting, rape and what have you…wait a minute…weren’t those the actual deeds of Mohammad, Islam’s great prophet?) and deserves to die.
It is great news because Mr. Rahman’s plight reveals, without any ambiguity, Islam’s true and ugly face. The real Islam, the same one which has been around for over 1300 years and murdered millions of people just like Mr. Rahman (Christians, Jews, Hindus and many, many more belonging to other religious groups). Not the Islam presented to us by Mr. Bush (religion of peace advocate), CAIR, Middle Eastern scholars, and many other lunatics who should know better just by studying history.
Islam’s apologists can dance around the French Muslim riots and call them “riots by disenfranchised French youths”.
They can dance around the orchestrated cartoon riots because “Muslims were rightly outraged by the way the West depicted their beloved prophet”.
But how can they dance around a possible death sentence handed down in Islam’s name, by a court upholding the Islamic law to a man who chose another religion over Islam? How can they dance around the calls for his death by thousands of Islamic clerics and followers during the weekly sermons around the world?
Mr. Rahman’s life might be spared because of all the international pressure. However, Mr. Rahman will not be the last person to be on trial for his beliefs. Other cases will follow wherever Sharia law is practiced because Islam, unlike wine, does not get better with time. Islam will continue to do what is does best: murder people in Allah’s name.
A true Christian says: “I will die for what I believe”. And a true Muslim’s reply is: “You will die for what I believe”. That’s all there is to it.
Posted by: petegood at March 24, 2006 12:55 PM
null -
Of course his martyrdom will not wake up everybody - wake up those with anything left to wake up.
As for burning Korans - I thought about this - do you realize doing this publicly and carefully with a phalanx of free speech lawyers to back you.... the planet earth would hit the fan. I would suggest you get a rabies shot first.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at March 24, 2006 12:57 PM
US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.
Maybe George should take a peek inside that copy of the Noble Koran that he so scandalously added to the Presidential Library.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 1:00 PM
This is just another instance of one law for muslims and another for Infidels.
1. Muslims reserve the right to criticise all other religions but DO NOT allow any criticism of islam.
Now this maybe OK in their own lands but by rioting and threats of murder, they have for all practical purposes, imposed this in the West as well.(Cartoon affair and the so called Freedom march)
2. Muslims demand that no impediment be placed on Infidels to convert to islam, or else it is sufficient reason to declare Jihad. However no such freedom exists for muslims to leave islam, whether in muslim countries or here in the West.
Historians will look on this cowardice of the 21st century and wonder what on earth was going on in the minds of the politicians.
I wonder for how long our leadership, seeped in the mire of PC, continue to accept this state of affairs.
Posted by: DP111 at March 24, 2006 1:03 PM
petegood posted: Not because Mr. Rahman is actually guilty of a real crime (such as stealing, murdering, child molesting, rape and what have you…wait a minute…weren’t those the actual deeds of Mohammad, Islam’s great prophet?) and deserves to die.
If Mr Rahman was actually guilty of crimes such as stealing, murdering, child molesting etc, while remaining muslim, he would not be guilty of any crime at all but become an exalted imam or similar.
Posted by: DP111 at March 24, 2006 1:11 PM
I am afraid this poor man is history. You know how bad humiliation is in islam.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at March 24, 2006 1:14 PM
This event has changed my whole perception of what we in the west are actually trying to do in Afghanistan and Iraq - what is the point of us implementing 'regieme change' when we put back in place the very people and ideology that we were trying to remove in the first place.
I feel so sorry for Abdul, but so proud that this man has the courage and strength to stand up to a whole country - a whole ideology - and face his death. Amen brother.
Posted by: mazztr at March 24, 2006 1:20 PM
Just an idea, why don't we trade two prisoners from Guantanamo for each Christian. (The Gitmo boys can be shot in the eye socket next time they trouble our troops, no more prisoners)
Posted by: Carolyn2 at March 24, 2006 1:31 PM
Unfortunately, Carolyn 2 may be right!
Suffering humiliation is a 'big one' in Islam as it is a shame based society - not freedom based. And they don't recognize human rights, only the tenents of hatred and death. They are truly out-of-control!
Posted by: champ at March 24, 2006 1:42 PM
Be careful people of Afghanistan, the gallows you build, might be your own.
RICK (in a dark corner of a humus joint, somewhere in Afghanistan)
Yes, that's very pretty. I heard a
story once. As a matter of fact, I've heard a lot of stories in my time. They went along with the sound of a tinny piano playing in the parlor downstairs, "Mister, If they execute Abdul Rahman it fuels the Anti-War (Anti-American) crowd," it'd always begin.
"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."
Well, well, well ... I guess we're damned if they execute Rahman, and we're damned if they don't!
That's how it goes with islamics "heads" they win; "tails" you lose.
Quick George! How do you spell "COW" in Arabic?
I hope Rahman gets off -- and I imagine he could only so these (expletive deleted) clerics can make some (expletive deleted) claims about islamic mercy or some such nonesense.
However, my bet is that they will sentence him to death before the trial (hey, that's democracy right -- and is that not what we are spending our tax dollars in the "war" to establish?) and delay it until the Americans and the West, forget the whole matter.
That memory lapse in America will take a total of two-and-a-half weeks (by that time America's attention will begin to focus on more important matters such as baseball and Spring training); then Rahman gets the axe.
In the end, the islamics manage to pull the wool over the eyes of the west -- again (Americans at least won't know the difference anyway) -- and manage to enhance the force of shariah law with a major contemporary precedent by establishing unequivocally, the penalty of converting from the nefarious ideology that is islam.
Hope I'm proven wrong and Rahman lives peacefully to a ripe old age, but unfortuantely history is on my side.
Posted by: witness at March 24, 2006 1:49 PM
petegood asks: But how can they dance around a possible death sentence handed down in Islam’s name, by a court upholding the Islamic law to a man who chose another religion over Islam? How can they dance around the calls for his death by thousands of Islamic clerics and followers during the weekly sermons around the world?
I asked myself the same questions, and then while listening to CSPAN during my lunch break I found out the shocking answers. The loony left is saying why should we bother about this one man when Pres. Bush has killed thousands of innocent Iraqis by his actions of going into Iraq. Others claim that this is a sovereign matter and that we should not interfere in another country's laws just as we wouldn't want others to interfere with our laws. Some said that Mr. Rahman knew full-well the consequences of his stance and, therefore, should happily die a Christian martyr. I was just left shaking my head in disbelief as I heard one person after the other opine why we should wash our hands off this whole affair. I heard only one person point out that this latest incident proved beyond doubt that Islam is not a peaceful religion but a dangerous cult which should not be tolerated in the 21st century just because it has over a billion adherents. No doubt, this sane man will be drubbed as a bigot by the general public.
Posted by: Razdan at March 24, 2006 1:53 PM
Alarmed Pig Farmer wrote
"Maybe George should take a peek inside that copy of the Noble Koran that he so scandalously added to the Presidential Library."
Yeah, he needs Mr. Spencer to walk him through it though...
Posted by: Jihad Watcher at March 24, 2006 1:56 PM
I see it in a slightly different light. In general, when they meet united opposition or even a strong response from one or a few Western governments, muslim governments fold like tents; let alone one like Karzai's, that depends on Western armies and Western money for its immediate survival. And in this case, the noise in the West is getting loud. Karzai will find a way to get this man out of Afghanistan. Then, as the moron said, "there will be jihad" - and the West will have another opportunity to prove its immense military superiority. There will be a great deal of deaths, and the Karzai government may survive, but looking even less popular than it does now. The final result will be to involve Western countries even deeper in the military occupation and effective re-colonization of the Muslim world - including countries such as Canada and Norway, which had nothing to do with Iraq, but have men in Afghanistan. I think the long drift of events - and I think I said this before - is towards a re-colonization, direct or indirect, of much of the Muslim world, and especially of the Arab, Persian and Central Asian area.
Posted by: Paolo at March 24, 2006 2:06 PM
I don't think the koran has corrupted George. But I can imagine the flack he'd get claiming how rotten islam is. Not just from muslims, but the dems. They'd tear him apart.
Posted by: freewoman at March 24, 2006 2:06 PM
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq punish us cruelly because of our morality, our religious beliefs, and our Constitution. Yes, we are back to the situation depicted in the movie "Apocalypse Now." However, this time, the situation is worse because our allies practice the same Barbarism as our enemies. I am speaking of the cartoon controversy, the Rahman ruling, and, in general, the non-existence of moderate Muslims. I'll be damned before I will support a government that does not recognize freedom of conscience in religious matters. In the Rahman case, I will be satisfied by nothing less than the doctrine promulgated by Teddy Roosevelt, "Talk softly and carry a big stick." I would make clear to the leaders of Afghanistan that Rahman must be released and that no other person be charged under Sharia Law. The only alternative is that we will remove them from power. No more of this pussy-footing around and begging for some show of respect for American values.
at March 24, 2006 2:07 PM
Muslims are muslims, they don't respect the West in any form. All muslims from all Western countries should be sent back to the desert from whence they came and build a big fence around it.
And hope for rain.
Posted by: freewoman at March 24, 2006 2:10 PM
In Spain during the "Golden Age of tolerance" the Almohads massacred thousands of Jews and Christians in old Andalus. Many more feigned acceptance of "the religion of peace." One of the families that fled to Morocco was the Maimon family. The eldest son, Moshe ben Maimon, came to be known to the world as Maimonides, the great physician, philosopher and jurist.
Maimonides wrote that, in order to save his life, a Jew may say the "shaheda" or profession of faith in Allah and Mo as His prophet because such a profession does not involve ascribing credibility to an idol. Many Jews were thus able to save their lives until they fleeing to more tolerant and safer environments. Witch hunts were conducted against recent converts; rabbis and community leaders were murdered. Those Jews who were unable to flee such cities as Fez were eventually assimilated to a degree into the surrounding Arab population. To this day, the "Fazi" marry amongst themselves and are counted among the cream of Moroccan economic, political, and cultural society.
Christians in Morroco refused to accept Islam under the Almohad persecutions and were exterminated to the last soul.
Posted by: DesertDawgN29 at March 24, 2006 2:18 PM
samson posted: I would like to burn the Koran in a public place.
From what we know thus far, it takes very little to offend the Muslims. You don’t have to actually burn a Koran to make your point. Just burn some papers, take a photo of the ashes, send it to Al-Jazeera (copies to several MSM outfits such as NY Times), and say it was the Koran. That will get them hot, offended and ready to set the world on fire.
For more visual effects take a picture of the Koran and label it “before” and label the photo showing the ashes as “after”. You could embellish the story by declaring yourself a Muslim who just converted to Christianity because of something your read in the Koran (an actual quote from the book would be a plus).
You can get as creative as you want as long as you take the necessary precautions: make sure you use a public internet access place such a cyber café (you don’t want to have your IP traced), don’t show your face in the picture or use a ski mask just like the “peace loving freedom fighters” aka terrorists do.
Posted by: petegood at March 24, 2006 2:20 PM
This is just another instance of one law for muslims and another for Infidels.
This is a good opportunity to refresh ourselves on such matters, DP111:
* In America, it is a felony crime to remove a girl's clitoris, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to have more than one wife, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to speak or act seditiously, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to be participate in an organized crime ring (RICO), unless you're a Moslem
* In America, equal protection and due process are constitutionally required, unless you're a Moslem
WHERE ARE MY ADDITIONAL MOSLEMS AMERICA MUST HAVE MO MOSLEMS NOW
In America, it is time to demand why Sgt. Hasan hasn't been dragged before a firing squad of fellow 101st Airborne infantry men and shot though the chest. Oh, I forgot, Sgt. Hasan is a Moslem.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 2:22 PM
AFP,
You forgot one.
* In America, it is a felony crime to own slaves, unless you're a Moslem.
Posted by: igor at March 24, 2006 2:24 PM
Are Muslims mad?
Not really, they are just wrong. Given that they accept that the Koran is the word of God and that Mohamed is perfect, then if they call for the killing of apostates they are being completely logical. The muddled ones are the moderates, who wrestle with their conscience. Many of them win, and Islam overrides all finer feelings.
There is a surprising degree of method in their madness. Perhaps they should be methodists - it would make a change to the old joke if nothing else.
Posted by: Interested at March 24, 2006 2:27 PM
This is just another instance of one law for muslims and another for Infidels.
This is a good opportunity to refresh ourselves on such matters, DP111:
* In America, it is a felony crime to remove a girl's clitoris, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to have more than one wife, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to speak or act seditiously, unless you're a Moslem
* In America, it is a felony crime to be participate in an organized crime ring (RICO), unless you're a Moslem
* In America, equal protection and due process are constitutionally required, unless you're a Moslem
WHERE ARE MY ADDITIONAL MOSLEMS AMERICA MUST HAVE MO MOSLEMS NOW
In America, it is time to demand why Sgt. Hasan hasn't been dragged before a firing squad of fellow 101st Airborne infantry men and shot though the chest. Oh, I forgot, Sgt. Hasan is a Moslem. How undue and inequal of me.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 2:34 PM
OT...Anyone know more about this:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/24/la.bomb.ap/index.html
Cops stop speeding car, find bomb
Friday, March 24, 2006; Posted: 12:08 p.m. EST (17:08 GMT)
Los Angeles (California)
SOUTH EL MONTE, California (AP) -- Explosives experts defused a homemade bomb found in the backseat of a car early Friday after the driver was stopped for speeding in this eastern Los Angeles suburb, authorities said.
The bomb was defused safely, but several industrial businesses in the area were evacuated and a main boulevard was closed for more than three hours.
After the driver was pulled over around 5 a.m., deputies "observed a package in the rear of the vehicle with wires coming out of it," Los Angeles County Sheriff's Sgt. Don Manumaleuna said.
The sheriff's arson-explosives detail described the package as an "improvised explosive device," Manumaleuna said.
The driver, whose identity was not immediately released, was being held for questioning.
Posted by: Abby at March 24, 2006 2:35 PM
Sorry for the double post, TypeKey is at it again.
I DEMAND MO MOSLEMS NOW I DEMAND MO MOSLEMS NOW I DEMAND MO MOSLEMS NOW
In America, it is a felony crime to own slaves, unless you're a Moslem.
Wait a minute, you're not saying that Moslem Man is owning slaves right here in the good old U.S. of A, are you. I mean, I understand about the Moslem wife thing, but technically they're not slaves. Are you saying real slaves?
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 2:42 PM
PRCS said
Afghanistan’s population is approximately 3 million people, which leaves 300 thousand apostates just ripe for prosecution and eventual public executions.
Condi and Hamid will have their hands full.
Yeah, everyone is focused on this one poor man. If some deal is reached to save him, then everyone will go away feeling proud and happy. But there are so many people being killed by Islam every week. We really need to look at the bigger picture. The only good side of this sick story is that it is bringing more mainstream attention to the reality of Islam, as you said PRCS.
As an aside, MSNBC is conducting a poll about this, and they've asked if the US should become involved in this situation.Only 36 percent of respondents feel that we should.
One respondent, named Pachek (probably not Irish) stated that US law is not the law around the world, and that we should not become involved.
More from the brain dead, booger eating moron crowd.
What does "becoming involved" mean? Does this mean diplomatic pressure, like Condi is already doing? Or does it mean using military force to overturn their legal system and save his life?
If it is the latter, then I would have to disagree with you. If the U.S. is going to go to every country and save every Christian or Jew that is being persecuted anywhere in the world, that's going to keep our troops busy for a few hundred years. Maybe the Afghans couldn't stop us, but are we going to shoot our way into some jail in China where Christian converts are being held?
Do you really want to enforce our values (freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, separation of church/mosque and state, etc.) everywhere in the world, at the point of a gun? Do we have enough troops to do that, even if we wanted to? Man, I'd just be happy if we could enforce them here at home. Look at the self-censorship that is already happening in our own media (eg. not publishing Mohammad cartoons, not naming the religion or ethnicity of terrorists, ignoring the riots in France for the first 5-6 days, etc.). If charity begins at home, so does freedom. Let the rest of the world build their own cultures: they can share our values and enjoy the fruits, or live in whatever hell-hole Mad Max society they come up with.
Posted by: special_guest at March 24, 2006 2:53 PM
I think we should use the principle of reciprocity to protect democracy. The system the way it is now is wide open to misuse by people who don't believe in democracy, equality or secularism. If they succeed then democracy and secularism ceases to exist. Only those who belive and agree to the principle of a democratic system should be allowed to benefit from it. If you do not believe in it you should be benefit from it. So muslims in western countries should publicly disown sharia states or leave democratic systems. You cannot enjoy the privileges of modern democratic countries while secretly nurturing a desire to live by sharia and impose it to oppress non-muslims when you have the numbers and power.
Posted by: raulb at March 24, 2006 2:58 PM
BREAKING NEWS
---- Mr Rahman threatened with execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity is expected "to be released in the coming days," an official says.
Posted by: Mackie at March 24, 2006 2:59 PM
About the Qur'an burning thing, it may not be illegal to burn any book, but it may be illegal to burn any thing. What I mean is, they might be able to arrest/ticket you for starting a fire without a burning permit.
I've been thinking about this too. We see artists pushing the limits for Christians all the time, like with "Piss Christ" and the like. How about doing demonstrations that push the limits for Muslims? If burning a Qur'an or drawing of Mohammad is a fire hazard, how about spraying them with pig's blood, etc.? To really throw off the PC crowd, you could insult the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an equally.
Posted by: special_guest at March 24, 2006 3:00 PM
To add to my earlier post, not only disown sharia states, but the concept of sharia as a viable political system in modern, tolerant and secular civilization with mixed populations, and the literal translation of the koran. I think this is what separates the extremists from the moderates. Now lets hear it from the moderates.
Posted by: raulb at March 24, 2006 3:10 PM
Mackie - where did you get that? Of course, just releasing him in Kabul would be tantamount to extrajudicial execution. They need to guarantee his protection, and then quell whatever consequences that brings.
Posted by: Null at March 24, 2006 3:11 PM
I wonder what would happen were the United States to enact a statute mandating that all Blacks wear bee keeper outfits. The cry raised against such a discriminatory law would deafen the world; and justly so.
In contrast look at what happens when people are murdered for breaking with their ancestral faith, and when women are put in the psychic equivelant of a bee keeper outfit. When done in the name of "religion," the worst injustices suddenly acquire the fine patina glaze of approval and otherwise well-intentioned people tolerate them.
Posted by: DesertDawgN29 at March 24, 2006 3:12 PM
Where are the demonstrations?
I am in Southern Califoria, I will attend one!
Posted by: Kay at March 24, 2006 3:12 PM
Who is America? America is who helped liberate these ingrates. See, no matter what you do for Muslims, they will, in the end, turn on you.
Best policy: Do no more for them.
Posted by: DCWatson at March 24, 2006 3:18 PM
OK, it's coming through on the wires now. New Straits Times, for example:
Afghanistan's Supreme Court said Thursday it was trying to find a "good solution" to the case, the first of its kind here, including persuading Rahman to revert to Islam.John Howard said it right. Physically sickening.
at March 24, 2006 3:20 PM
Who is America?
This is becoming the billion dollar question lately.
I wonder if one day the question will be:
"What was America? What was the United States?"
_ _ _ _ Jihad.
Anyone else ready for war like I am?
Posted by: Foehammer at March 24, 2006 3:21 PM
warning...unhinged rant...warning
look at how the story is being spun. karzai is a u.s. ally. therefore this is bush's fault somehow. has any outside media been able to talk to this guy? he could be just a fruitloop with a deathwish. if he's legitimate, and sane, i say the army gives him a job in charge of food distibution for the entire country. make the muslims come and kiss his hand if they want to eat.
john
http://www.attackcartoons.com
one afghan converted to christianity. seven million to go.
Posted by: attackcartoons at March 24, 2006 3:28 PM
"Pat Tillman died for this?"
-from a posting a day ago
President Bush must now see that through this trial his great foreign policy venture threatens to turn into the most absurd possible error in the most pointed and visible way.
This war has been a test of the Bush democracy doctrine, and this trial is shaping up to be the test within the test.
In fact this trial is threatening to become the punchline of the terribly long and unfunny shaggy-dog story of our presence for the last several years in Iraq and Afghanistan.
When Robert Spencer in his recent Frontpagemag.com article suggested Bush should work for the removal of the Shariah provisions in the Afghan constitution, I could only applaud.
During these war years President Bush has perhaps been inferring that
...many things, having full reference To one consent, may work contrariously:As many arrows, loosed several ways,
Come to one mark; as many ways meet in one town;
As many fresh streams meet in one salt sea;
As many lines close in the dial's centre;
So may a thousand actions, once afoot.
End in one purpose, and be all well borne
Without defeat.
Except this trial defeats all and makes farce of 2600 wonderful soldiers' ultimate sacrifice.
I hope President Bush is upending every piece of furniture in his foreign policy world and busting the tails of those who advised him a bit of Shariah in a constitution is ok. I hope he won't settle for the status quo he set up.
But more likely what we are seeing here is the now-irreversible tragic-farcical climax of the policy of trying to liberate Afghanistan and Iraq while compromising with Shariah.
Posted by: www.islamquest.blogspot.com at March 24, 2006 3:36 PM
***ACTION ALERT***
I found this information on another website; encouraging people to call or write the Afghan Embassy in Washington, D.C.
"Voice your protest of the possible exectuion of Mr. Abdul Rahman. Also demand that President Hamid Karzai use his constitutional powers to spare the life of Mr. Rahman if found guilty of violating the 'sacred religion of Islam'."
Write to:
Ambassador Said T. Jawad
Embassy of Afghanistan
2341 Wyoming Ave, NW
Washington, D.C. 20005-2008
Or call:
202-483-6410
202-483-6488 (fax)
info@embassyofafghanistan.org
Please call or write today, and spread the word!
Posted by: champ at March 24, 2006 3:43 PM
As I've said several times over the last few years at LGF, and sometimes here, there should be Former Muslim Protection Programs (FMPP's) at the state and federal level.
The only legal template for this sort of behavior is organized crime.
Posted by: Beagle at March 24, 2006 4:18 PM
If afganistan do kill Mr Rahman, then they truly have just signed thier own death warrant.
I think the majority of Americans, particularly Christians, dont know whats going on with Islam. If you piss off those people, dont be surprised if public reaction getting extremely messy.
Of course, the Afgans know it. But America is a sleeping giant, wake it up and it'll be bad for everybody.
Posted by: chu - doc at March 24, 2006 4:18 PM
If you lie down with dogs, expect to get up with fleas.
(I'm a dog lover, so I mean no disrespect).
What else would you expect from this criminal regime?
We were right to go into Afghanistan; we should have simply sought out and killed all the Taliban we found, and then left.
If you read about the French experience in Egypt under Napoleon, you'll find the same thing, repeated again and again.
There's nothing to be done with Moslems apart from walling them off or killing them. The farther they are from the civilized world, the better.
Posted by: Seymour Paine at March 24, 2006 4:32 PM
Anyone else ready for war like I am?
No such luck. You've gotta fight Moslems on their terms, in other words, you gotta fight the Jihad form of war. Sporadic action. Sustained program. Hegemonic territory expansion via immigration and then the fast-breed. Fake history. Fake language. Welfare mooch. Osequious infidel school teachers instructing lies. Vacuous reporters. Fraud-peddling professors. Craven politicians. This is our battlefield now. So who you gonna shoot?
DAMMIT I'M TIRED I DEMAND 3,000,000 MO MOSLEMS RIGHT NOW RIGHT HERE
At night I sleep face down, pillow over my head, weeping cuz in my mind I hear a million Moslem beds creaking. Hump. Pump. Thump the rump. Hey little doggie. Makes me a grump.
Like flies.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 4:41 PM
Robert,
Just a question, and completely off topic... Was wondering if you've been hounded and/or are being hounded by CAIR. And to everyone we should find some way to investigate CAIR, use their own words against them, for they discredit themselves!! Hopefully we can shut them down!!
-Erik
Posted by: Erik at March 24, 2006 4:45 PM
It looks like some sort of asylum is the only compromise that might work. This would create an interesting precedent. I am not sure if it would be good; plenty of Muslims could just pretend they are leaving Islam, and get refugee status
This is my exact fear and while most are really here to escape the tyranny over there I am skeptical about all of them coming for peaceful reasons.
I even wrote a letter to my Senator McMorris and stated it is foolish to bring in immigrants from third world Muslim nations- look at Paris.
The more they grow in population the more they will grow in political power. I say slam the border shut to them and let their good Muslim bothers help them, it won't happen. If they do not like our way of life, constitution and being equal with other religions then they are not welcomed here. If they are willing to embrace our culture (not all of it but the basic tenants of freedom) then I have no problem but the example I am seeing forming in Europe tells a different story. NO more Muslim refugees. The ones that are here are welcome to stay as long as they respect the dominant culture and our constitution. If these people from CAIR want Islamic law then why don't they go back to that way of life??????? They will not force it on us without a fight- comprende CAIR????
at March 24, 2006 4:55 PM
Robert,
Just a question, and completely off topic... Was wondering if you've been hounded and/or are being hounded by CAIR. And to everyone we should find some way to investigate CAIR, use their own words against them, for they discredit themselves!! Hopefully we can shut them down!!
This is a great idea- let's do it!!!
What is their web site?????
There is anticair but the web site is not very active or last I looked.
Posted by: eaglecap at March 24, 2006 4:59 PM
havoc
Fat chance. There's already an army of Saudi students preparing to invade our schools:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48899
Posted by: ovidius_naso at March 24, 2006 5:03 PM
"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."
----------------
Afghans were just freed from the oppression of the Taliban.
Yet even after being freed, Afghans show absolutely no tolerance for any other religions.
There is no reasoning with Islam or Muslims when it comes to the Quran and thier forsaken religion.
We need to tell them how wrong they are with bombs and missiles.
It is war with Islam.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at March 24, 2006 5:42 PM
If this man is liberated, he needs to be flown to the US and be awarded a Hero's welcome.
Corwds must gather in Times square to welcome him to his new home.
This will undo the damage done by the MSM in the cartoon crusades and show clearly American resolve to stand up to Muslim persecution and intimidation.
at March 24, 2006 5:48 PM
I agree with those who have said that the politicians will wash their hands of it the moment some 'compromise' is found, such as calling the man mad and finding him asylum somewhere.
This is no real solution for any of us, including Abdul, who clearly has a huge commitment to religious freedom, not to his own safety.
We need to keep pushing these crazy, contradictory words back in our politicians' faces, as they demonstrate Islamist word-twisting so clearly. And we need to keep demanding that only truly secular-minded muslims, or those leaving the faith, be allowed to immigrate:
“"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge. Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website.”
at March 24, 2006 5:53 PM
I guess this puts the nail in the coffin for the myth that the taliban were islamic extremists and that there is such a thing a moderate muslims. I think Ann coulter had the right idea "we should invade their countries kill their leaders and convert them to christianity." That would solve teh problem if possible.
Posted by: pissedoffcanadian at March 24, 2006 6:00 PM
APF and Igor
Good God, I didnt realise that the list extended that far. Come to think of it, the same applies in the UK as well. In the UK
It is a high crime, nay treason of high order to threaten the realm of Her Majesty, except if you are muslim.
It is high treason to setup any authority that even indirectly challenges the supremacy of parliament, unless ofcourse one sets up a muslim parliament.
Polygamy is a crime unless you are muslim.
Election fraud is a high crime as it subverts the democratic process, unless ofcourse you are muslim.
And so on. This has to stop!
Posted by: DP111
at March 24, 2006 6:39 PM
Asia Times has published a story that acknowledges (way down towards the bottom) that all major branches of Islam require the execution of apostates. There are remarks by a "renowned Muslim intellectual" defending the indefensible in garbled terms. See:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HC25Df02.html
I'd like to see the media discuss how apostates would be treated in other Muslim countries. And, for "balance", how Christian countries treat converts to Islam.
at March 24, 2006 6:41 PM
DP111
Do you mean those exceptions are somehow sanctioned by law, or just by lax enforcement?
Posted by: Lili at March 24, 2006 6:45 PM
DP111
Do you mean those exceptions are somehow sanctioned by law, or just by lax enforcement?
Posted by: Lili at March 24, 2006 6:45 PM
A quote from the renowned Muslim intellectual in the Asia Times article (pertaining to Pope Urban):
"Because somebody evolved in his mind a philosophy of truth and then reckoned Islam as false and then thought it a threat to spirituality and the universe, so they decided to eliminate it. On the contrary, there is not a single instance in Muslim history in which people were forced to change their religion, and even if there were an isolated incident, it would never be endorsed by Islam or by unified Muslim opinion."
I forget, was this because Islam was spread by joyful, peace-loving, flower-wielding followers, and they all looked so happy that everyone wanted to join? Talk about revisionist history.
at March 24, 2006 6:59 PM
"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest."
So...killing a Christian "apostate" is one of their "religious practices," eh? Sort of like when I take communion?
Then, if this is indeed a "religious practice," then does that not mean that Islam requires human sacrifices? I've read more than one instance where the Koran tells its "faithful" to kill non-muslims, regardless of their "apostasy." Can it not be said that killing non-muslims, even in jihad is sacrificing human beings to their god? (Except, of course, they would apply the label "pig," "rat," "worm," or some other non-human title to those who they are about to slaughter.)
Posted by: yohannbiimu at March 24, 2006 7:01 PM
From the AsiaTimes article:
"On the contrary, there is not a single instance in Muslim history in which people were forced to change their religion, and even if there were an isolated incident, it would never be endorsed by Islam or by unified Muslim opinion."
This is the bottom line problem with Islam.
Why can't anyone, including the author of this article, see the absolute hypocrisy of this statement?
Not a single instance? How about the case of Mr. Rahman? Is not facing execution 'force'?
It is inconceivable that anyone can't see the inherent logical fallacy in this statement!
at March 24, 2006 7:01 PM
Turkey killed 1.5 millions Christian Armenians and there was enthusiastic support for the slaughter by Turkey's so called religious leaders.
The point here is that while it is apparently intolerable for Islam to accept conversion to another religion it is equally offensive to be of another religion period.
Many Copts regularly face similar treatment today in Egypt.
The US government has never censured any of these governments over their maltreatment of Christians.
Posted by: Charlie at March 24, 2006 7:20 PM
The muslims humiliated themselves when they had their worldwide mohammed cartoon jihad and called for the death of the cartoonists.
The muslims nce again have humiliated themselves by calling for the death of the Christian convert.
I think there may be a clue to how this will turn out in the BBC article above.
The "muslim judge" says that "if he (Rahman) regrets what he did, then we will forgive him".
The judge will announce Rahman confessed to regret. Rahman will be released under tight security to US troops and taken out of the country. The afghanis will think they have saved face. The truth will be that Rahman never recanted or confessed to regreting his conversion.
Posted by: omvi at March 24, 2006 7:22 PM
Kay,
On the contrary, there is not a single instance in Muslim history in which people were forced to change their religion, and even if there were an isolated incident, it would never be endorsed by Islam or by unified Muslim opinion.
To a Muslim that statement is an absolute truth. In Islamic theory, we are all Muslims, whether we like it or not. Abraham and Isaac were Muslims, the Koran did not come into existence in the 7th century, but was Allah's word for all time.
But along the way, Allah's word was corrupted and people became ignorant of the truth and called themselves Jews, Christians, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Bhuddists and even Rastafarians. But according to this theory these are not true religions, they are false religions, they are not the religions of Allah, for there can be only one true religion and that truth is Islam.
So in Islamic theory you can not be forced, even if a samatar is held to your neck, to convert from one religion into Islam, since in Islam the false religion is not a religion but ignorance. You are only reverting into Islam which was your orginal religion before you became ignorant of the truth.
See how that works?
Posted by: Lisa at March 24, 2006 7:23 PM
Kay wrote:
"Why can't anyone, including the author of this article, see the absolute hypocrisy of this statement?"
Because a non-American made it. Because a non-American ally made it. Because someone who hates freedom and liberty made it.
Had they said "Our religion requires that we kill those who leave our religion, and our laws give you the choice to join us, accept slavery, or die," nothing would have been made of it, because the universal idea of it is their "religious right." They can claim the right to do the most abominable acts imaginable, under the cloak of "religion," and the world will look the other way.
On the contrary, if anyone suggests that their acts committed under "religion" are what they would otherwise be called "crimes," then those accusations are called "Islamophobia." Indeed, to even say that they are hypocrits or liars is enough to label someone as such.
at March 24, 2006 7:25 PM
Just OT but didn't see the stroy about the trucking school in MO but seams the FBI raded this school because they were teaching somili mulsums at an alarming rate??
http://www.ky3.com/news/2312071.html
Most test takers at trucking school have Middle Eastern names
by Laurie Patton, KY3 News
WEST PLAINS, Mo. -- Most of the people who’ve been tested to drive big rigs at a trucking school here have names that sound as if they are Middle Eastern in origin. The FBI has been scrutinizing the South Central Career Center’s Truck Training Program since at least early this month.
KY3 News obtained the names of the test takers through Missouri’s Open Records law. The names on the list first caught the eye of the director of this school, who later tipped off the FBI.
West Plains School District Superintendent Karla Eslinger says the director of her district’s truck driving school started noticing something odd in the spring of 2003.
“Middle Eastern-origin type of names,” she said.
For example, the list of people who took the commercial drivers license exam in May 2004 shows that 26 out of 30 people appear to have names of Middle Eastern descent. Seventy percent of those tested from May 2004 until December 2005, as shown in billing records, have Middle Eastern names.
READ THE WHOLE THING??
Now they could just want the great job of moving things in the USA or there could be something else afoot??
Part of the American Tribe
Squirrel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THM STRENGTH, WISDOM, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTRY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO SUPPORT THEM LET NOT THE WORLD BE DECEIVED BY THEM AMEN
at March 24, 2006 7:29 PM
eaglecap,
ANTI-CAIR has been very active and CAIR has been discredited. CAIR sued ANTI-CAIR for defamation, and CAIR has now dismissed the suit. All statements made by ANTI-CAIR against CAIR, including that its seeks to overthrow the U.S. Constitution, are free to be made without threat of suit.
Statement By Anti-CAIR’s Andrew Whitehead Regarding Dismissal of CAIR Libel Suit
As you know, the Council on American-Islamic Relations filed a $1.35 million libel suit against me because I made the following statements:Posted by: Lisa
- “Let there be no doubt that CAIR is a terrorist supporting front organization that is partially funded by terrorists, and that CAIR wishes nothing more than the implementation of Sharia law in America.”
- CAIR is an “organization founded by Hamas supporters which seeks to overthrow Constitutional
government in the United States and replace it with an Islamist theocracy using our own Constitution as protection.”- “ACAIR reminds our readers that CAIR was started by Hamas members and is supported by terrorist supporting individuals, groups and countries.”
- “Why oppose CAIR? CAIR has proven links to, and was founded by, Islamic terrorists. CAIR is not in the United States to promote the civil rights of Muslims. CAIR is here to make radical Islam the dominant religion in the United States and convert our country into an Islamic theocracy along the lines of Iran. In addition, CAIR has managed, through the adroit manipulation of the popular media, to present itself as the ‘moderate' face of Islam in the United States. CAIR succeeded to the point that the majority of its members are not aware that CAIR actively supports terrorists and terrorist supporting groups and nations. In addition, CAIR receives direct funding from Islamic terrorists supporting countries.”
- “CAIR is a fundamentalist organization dedicated to the overthrow of the United States Constitution and the installation of an Islamic theocracy in America.”
at March 24, 2006 7:32 PM
Do you mean those exceptions are somehow sanctioned by law, or just by lax enforcement?
Almost always the latter. Although I do look to the Islamic Republic of Sweden for leadership on how to go about actually codifying Moslem supremacy.
In my city, the firemen and cops and EMTs saw clit-snip debacles weekly. One cop was actually multiculturally insensitive enough to arrrest a scissors-wielding Moslem, and was severely reprimanded. Word was put out through the various first responder commands to look the other way. A detente was eventually negotiated whereby medical doctors in the local county trauma center do the dirty deed, under antiseptic conditions and all that. Never forget that medical schools are on college campuses (hate farms, all). So now doctors suck the brains out of unborn babies and remove the sexual organs from 11-year old girls. And we pay for all this action through the welfare. Would it be too pat for me to mumble something about the Hippocratic Oath being morphed into the Hypocritic Oath?
Equal protection. Due process. A half-assed law, an unenforced law, is is no law at all. I turn to the U.S.-Mexican border to offer you the proof of that.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at March 24, 2006 7:35 PM
Let's face in folks, the "death for apostasy" law is extremely necessary for Islam. Muhammed certainly saw that before he died. Had the ruling not been put in place, instead of being the fastest growing religion in the world, it would be the fastest dying. Chaces are, that it would no longer be in existance today. If the booty had been taken away in 632, Islam would probably never had gotten outside the Arabian borders. And if it were not for this penalty of death for leaving, it would never have survived.
Consider also the fact that according to the Koran, you are not allowed to ask difficult questions concerning Islam. See Koran V:101. Also,you cannot indulge in commentary about the Koran or the sunna or express opinion. According to Ibn Kathir (D. 1373)citing a chain going back to Ibn Abbas, reported that Muhammed said "Who ever explains the Qu'ran with his opinion or with what he has no knowledge of, then let him assume his seat in the fire." So do you think anyone is going to question these rulings? This is not Lutheran Sunday School folks, there is no grace.
Then take the posting by CAIR on their web site concerning this situation. Itlooks very good until you consider their references. Except for the last one, they are all from Mecca surahs when Muhammad was trying to intice the Jews and Christians to come on over. Naturally he is not going to say you will be killed if you change your mind. The only reference from a Medina Surrah is 2:256, which was later abbrogated. Notice specifically that they do not mention 2-217.
woodrock
Posted by: woodrock at March 24, 2006 7:40 PM
"On the contrary, there is not a single instance in Muslim history in which people were forced to change their religion, and even if there were an isolated incident, it would never be endorsed by Islam or by unified Muslim opinion." (from the Asia Times article)
It's hard to even know where to start with that statement. But when an infidel's options are to convert, or pay the tax, and refusing those 2 options, be murdered - how can one possibly claim that forcing people to change their religion "would never be endorsed by Islam or by unified Muslim opinion". Oh yes. It's quite clear that forcing people to change their religion to Islam is clearly endorsed by both Islam and by unified Muslim opinion. THAT IS THE CENTRAL PROBLEM WITH ISLAM! If it weren't for THAT, infidels couldn't give a damn about Islam, frankly. Why the hell else would we care about Muslims' deluded beliefs if they didn't affect us?
And to claim that there are "isolated" incidents of forced conversion is ludicrous. What about the large number of Coptic Christians in Egypt being kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam, just to note a recent example that gives the lie to that statement?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16274
That's a link to a previous article by our host, in which he noted,
"Wafaa Constantine Messiha, wife of a Coptic priest in Egypt, was abducted by jihadist Muslims and forced to convert to Islam. The Mubarak regime has done nothing. This is no isolated incident: Wilfred Wong of the Jubilee Campaign, a Christian human rights group, notes that “the attempts to force Christians to convert to Islam in Egypt are on the increase and the methods are getting increasingly varied and well organized. Some of these forced conversions are carried out by Muslim individuals, with the help of their friends, while others are being conducted by well funded groups.”
The situation has gotten so bad for Copts in Egypt that Pope Shenouda III, the leader of the Coptic Church, recently spoke out boldly about one common method of abduction and forced conversion: “I have received so many letters about what’s happening to the Christian girls who go to supermarket stores to shop. At the store they tell them that they have won and have to go upstairs to receive their award or prize. After that we don’t know what’s happening to these girls upstairs. There is a lot of talking going on about this matter, and I see that what’s happening will create a religious clash in the country. I’m urging the police to take a serious action against what’s happening.”....
Actions against Christians not only in Egypt, but all over the Middle East, are usually ascribed these days to anti-U.S. sentiment in the wake of the invasion of Iraq — when they’re reported at all. But such incidents are far older than the U.S. presence in Iraq; they have been going on for decades, even centuries. According to the Jubilee Campaign, in the late 1990s Coptic Christians uncovered evidence of houses in which “different teams of Muslims were working to pressure or force Christians to convert to Islam.” They found “a very organized and systematic approach by these Muslims to waylaying and forcing Egyptian Christians to convert to Islam.”"
In short, "renowned Muslim intellectual Shahnawaz Farooqui" is a bald-faced liar.
Posted by: Caroline
at March 24, 2006 7:42 PM
Kay,
"Where are the demonstrations?" Well there are demonstrations in So. California. Unfortunately they are demonstrations by illegal (i.e. lawbreakers) aliens protesting the slight possiblity that America might start to protect its border security.
There are no counter demonstrations. So if Americans won't even rally in support of their own survival, why would anyone expect them to demonstrate to protect one courageous dissenter on the other side of the world?
Posted by: RBLA at March 24, 2006 7:50 PM
Muslim barbarians take over the library of the university of Sorbonne and destroy 10 centuries worth of cultural heritage.
http://www.english-france-echos.blogspot.com
at March 24, 2006 7:54 PM
You can check out any time you like... but you can NEVER leave.
Welcome to the Hotel islam o'yeah
at March 24, 2006 8:05 PM
Lili posted: Do you mean those exceptions are somehow sanctioned by law, or just by lax enforcement?
I have no idea. I dont think they are sanctioned by law, but as the law turns a blind eye, they are sanctioned unofficially.
-------------------------------------
I wonder if trhis has been posted.
Remember the tame Yale Taleban. Well apparantly he was the same
"Taliban official Rehmatullah Hashmi, an official from the Taliban's foreign ministry, shows a book confiscated from the International Assistance Mission, IAM. Eight foreign aid workers have been arrested and are on trial on charges of preaching Christianity."
http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/ClintonTaylor/2006/03/23/190918.html
I suppose the penalty would have been death then as now.
Posted by: DP111 at March 24, 2006 8:06 PM
P.S. There are more closet converts from Islam to other religions and/or Atheism than we could ever imagine.
If I were a muslim woman trapped by islam in any land... be it the USA, Britain, France, Russia, China, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Somalia (insert muslim country name here), I'd go with the flow so to speak... As a WOMAN I'd have to protect my children. So, if I were a muslim WOMAN, I'd have to say and do what I am told to protect myself and my children. If I'm told to wear a veil or risk being beaten in front of my innocent children, I would wear the veil. For the sake of my children. If I'm told to spread my legs or be beaten in front of my children, I would spread my legs. For the sake of my children. If I'm told not to speak out of turn or be beaten in front of my children, I will choose not to speak out of turn. For the sake of my children.
When we manage to liberate the women of islam, and when the women of islam stand up and throw off the yoke of the cult that envelopes them, we will see change. Otherwise, it's the same old same old same old song. Liberate and empower the women, and islamic society will change.
Posted by: Just_Linda at March 24, 2006 8:16 PM
Just_Linda: "Welcome to the Hotel islam o'yeah"
Linda - I was thinking the same thing about how apropos the Eagles' lyrics are:
"Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave..."
"You can check out any time you like", when juxtaposed with "But you can never leave",
pretty much sums up Muslim doublespeak in claiming that there is no compulsion in Islam.
at March 24, 2006 8:16 PM
adela: from the lnk you provided, another interesting link
Action against the great mosque of Colle Val d'Elsa
http://www.coranix.com/action/collevaldelsa/index_en.html
Posted by: DP111 at March 24, 2006 8:18 PM
If the U.S. is going to go to every country and save every Christian or Jew that is being persecuted anywhere in the world, that's going to keep our troops busy for a few hundred years.
Posted by: special_guestat March 24, 2006 02:53PM
-----------
And there would be a lot less bad people across the world.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at March 24, 2006 8:19 PM
Anyone else ready for war like I am?
Posted by: Foehammer at March 24, 2006 03:21 PM
-----------
Among millions and millions of others.
Prepared, armed and ready.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at March 24, 2006 8:23 PM
For about the past 30-40 years, Liberal (therefore academic and media) brainwashing has convinced many that Western "imperialism" is the true source of all evil. Whatever Christianity and Western colonialism touched went from utopia to misery. The "noble savage" crap has caused most Western elite universities to focus much academic effort on denigrating the West. While showing the absolute perfection of everything non-Western. Any true true, unbiased Western history is deemed unsophisticated jingoism. To get ahead in history at most top Western Universities, non-Western studies is the way to go.
In the context of Islamic Studies, this mindset has brought us to the current state of affairs. Holding up Islam as the pre-Western colonialism utopian "good", while denigrating the "crusading" West. Islam was in perfection until stained by Western ideals. All warts of the West: crusades, inquisition, slavery etc. etc. are magnified beyond historic accuracy. The good of the West and Christianity (Think of the legal systems, medical advances, human rights, political development, etc. exported during Western expansion) are ignored or shown as unwanted "imperialism". If all cultures could just go back to the "good old days" before Western explorers ventured forth.
All the true, dark history of Islam has been downplayed for decades. It goes against the elite, "sophisticated" Liberal ideal discussed above. Political Correctness has become the new McArthyism.
Now, all those who bought into this PC garbage are in utter confusion. We are seeing that the West and Christianity are not the utimate source of all evil in the world. That the "noble savage" crap does not fit to the Islamic World. That Islam is not the true "religion of peace" that can teach Christianity how to behave.
Those who have grown up with this Liberal Worldview being shaken to their core. They have bought into a bag of lies. They have invested so much of their lives in garbage ideology.
Additionally, most Americans believe they should trust the opinion from the "experts" at places like Harvard, Yale, Georgetown, etc. Shouldn't we trust the opinions of those deemed the best of the best in their field????? Shouldn't the top people in the top universities be telling the truth when they tell us "Islam is about peace and toleration". What are they getting paid to do??? Americans just can't seem to face that their elite institutions have failed them. Islam is a dark, coersive, threatening ideology. Our academics elites cannot tell the truth or they will by marginalized or fired by the "group think" cowardice in academia.
We are the source of truth, and must continue our campaign. It will take time, but eventually even the hardliners must come around.
Posted by: hello123 at March 24, 2006 8:29 PM
Caroline, I'm a long time fan of your posts.
I still think that upon the announcement of complete amnesty from apostacy granted to the WOMEN of islam (cult) that they would flock in great numbers together with their children... it would then be our duty to protect, shelter and strenghten them. I hate to sound like some feminist prick, but reality is what it is.. The liberation of the true slaves of islam (women) will lead to the liberation of all nations from the threat of terrorist muslim men.
I would open my door and my home to any female muslim apostate and her children. My heart is closed due to lack of trust of muslims in general, but the door to the dwelling is open, there are clean quarters, good food and good opportunity for the muslim female to lead her own flock sans the muslim beast husband.
at March 24, 2006 8:31 PM
Texican... I have an issue with you.
As you so carefully point out the speck in your brothers' eye, you ignore the plank in your own eye.
Can't you see that the muslims see themselves as Abraham's rightful seed? If you read the bible you know that mohammed is from the tribe of Ishmael. Although the masses are mislead, what are YOU doing to ensure the salvation of your fellow man? Are you bearing fruit by your posts? Or are your caustic remarks making those that might see light, see darkness instead?
Don't answer me. Answer yourself.
Posted by: Just_Linda at March 24, 2006 8:39 PM
Contrary to much leftist rhetoric, I believe that the Bush administration was sincerely interested in not only overthrowing the tyrant Sadaam Hussein, but also in building democracy in Iraq. However, there was a serious misunderstanding about democracy. It is inextricably bound up with ideas that developed over millenia in the West. There's a culture connected with these political institutions. Never in history has democracy been imposed top down through military might. The culture in Iraq, unfortunately, is an Islamic one - which, by definition is incompatible with the idea of human rights. Yes, they may prattle on about "human rights", but all one needs to do is check out the Cairo Declaration of "Human Rights" to understand that these words mean something very different when used by Muslims.
So, as Lenin said (LOL), "What is to be done?" Those of us who are Christians need to brainstorm together about how to evangegelize Muslims. There are many golden opportunities in this country. However, the duties of Western states are quite different. Islam today (as always) is a MILITARY threat to Western countries and it is the duty of Western governments to protect free societies. But this must be done (as we generally do) within the context of the moral limits set by centuries of Western reflection (the just war theory), which means no direct attacks on non-combatants, no torture, etc. Of course, we will be tempted to abandon some of these moral imperatives, but, if we do, we will resemble our enemies and give ammunition to the moral idiocy which sees moral equivalency between the sins of the West and Islamdom.
We have a narrow path to trod, and I'm convinced that everyone has a role to play, including secularists with a passion for justice and decency (like Oriana Fallaci). While I'm a Christian, I believe, in God's Providence, atheists and agnostics in the West help to purify Christian theory and practice so it doesn't degenerate into ideology.
As for Abdul Rahman and others who are persecuted for their allegiance to the Lordship of Jesus, their witness (martyrdom) will be the seed of new growth for the Church. It's high time that the world learned what true martyrdom is about. It's about love, not hate. It's about self-sacrifice, not the search for unending sexual gratification in a Paradise invented by the unchaste. It's about a kind and degree of fortitude that our fighting men in their best moments wish to emulate. Finally, it's about Truth. Abdul is saying that the center of history is not the hegira, but the cross where the broken heart of God recreates the world.
Posted by: Tom at March 24, 2006 8:50 PM
Just_Linda I have said many times, the women will free us from islam. They have the most to gain and at the rate the men kill themselves or get themselves killed the women will soon be the majority. I went into several villages in Bosnia that had no or maybe one old man left. That said, we can’t take them all in, too many and it would cost too much. They will have to stay in place to win. We should help but not by moving them to safety. The biggest reason muslims are so hard on the women in their lives is they are terrified of giving them any power. The muslim warrior is a myth, they are a weak people. Just today in the news, dozens captured, what happened to fight to the death for allah? Why are so many in Gitmo and the other prisons? They are cowards, mob rule is all they know, one on one they are weak.
Posted by: Ronin at March 24, 2006 8:52 PM
If it were the other way around, if a Western nation was about to execute a man for converting from Christianity to Islam..............
Muslims would burn down embassies, play the victim card, riot through the streets, issue fatwas, kidnap foreigners, commit terrorist acts, and behead the night away! (You know, like they do everyday anyways)
Jesse Jackson, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton would rush to the Western nation as a U.N./NATO emergency peacemaking envoy, and Abdul Rahman would be brought to America, given political asylum and become a Muslim hero. Instead, the U.N., N.A.T.O., and radical left wing is quiet as a mouse and the former spokesman for the F*CKING TALIBAN is enrolled at prestigious Yale University!
The mainstream media would cover the "Abdul Rahman Death Watch" 24-hours non-stop, elevating him to Ghandi-like status, then he would be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. Instead, the mainstream media has largely ignored this story, while last year they gushed over Crips founder and convicted quadruple-murderer "Tookie" Williams and elevated him to Rosa Parks-like status, oh, and he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. You know, like the one won by Yassir Arafat!
Affluent, suburban, sandal-wearing, trust-funded, pseudo-hippie, bleeding-heart liberal college students would hold candlelight vigils and walk-outs to support Rahman in his struggle against the evil Western fascist zionists! Meanwhile, vile, treasonous, elite academia like Noam Chomsky and Ward Churchill would justify any and all Islamo-facist attacks against the West, especially America and Israel, by arguing it's just a "natural reaction" and "price we must pay" for centuries of tyranny and genocide!
And finally, the A.C.L.U. would fly right over to defend Rahman's right to religious freedom and save him from death by hanging on grounds of "cruel and unsual punishment." Instead, they are silent. Perhaps if Abdul Rahman were a member of NAMBLA, or a convicted sex-offender who wants to live next to a school, then the A.C.L.U. would step in!
This hypocrisy is just more proof of the love that dare not speak it's name, between jihadists and the hate-america liberals who love them!
Posted by: embrace_zionism at March 24, 2006 8:52 PM
Just_Linda:
How easily you swallow the lies that Muhammad sowed in order to establish the grand cult of Islam upon the world. You should not be so quick to judge others in the name of a farce.
Posted by: Foehammer at March 24, 2006 8:57 PM
embrace_zionism,
Our enemies are many and our friends few, with defenders like me and you, we have the advantage to see this fight through. Lol, sorry but I’m supporting Denmark with a few brews.
Posted by: Ronin at March 24, 2006 9:00 PM
Just_Linda - I tried every search equation I could just to find this one article that I saw posted at LGF somewhere lost in the comments section today. I can't find the exact article I had seen (if anyone else recalls it I would appreciate it if you would provide a link here). But the gist of it was that Christian radio has made huge inroads into Muslim territory and is having quite an impact. The article I read (and I do hate to ask anyone to rely on my account of this rather than being able to link to the article itself)- cited a poll which indicated that 40% of Algerian Muslims would abandon Islam if they could. 40%! The article also went on to describe that several million Egyptians listened to late-night Christian gospel programs on the radio. The article seemed to be pointing out that as much as the Islamic world tries to suppress all other forms of information, they are facing a losing battle against radio. I did find it interesting that the article indicated that these largely illiterate Muslims were quite turned off by direct attacks on Islam and Muhammad. It implied that this made them more defensive. But the gist was that those who felt rather hopeless, responded positively to the hopeful message communicated by the Christian New Testament. Again, if anyone recognizes my description of this article and can provide a link, it would be appreciated.
Posted by: Caroline at March 24, 2006 9:00 PM
Reply from Afghan Embassy (info@embassyofafghanistan.org):
"The Embassy of Afghanistan greatly appreciates public concern about Mr. Abdul Rahman.
We have received a significant number of inquiries about his case, which initially
involved a civil lawsuit in child custody filed by his family.
Please note that the Government of Afghanistan is fully aware of and pursuing the
best ways to resolve his case judicially. It is too early to draw any conclusion
about the punishment, and we appreciate public understanding of the sensitivity
of religious issues.
The Afghan judicial system is currently evaluating questions raised about the mental
fitness of Mr. Rahman, the results of which may end the proceedings. Hence we kindly
request that the judicial process be given time to resolve Mr. Rahman case.
The Constitution of Afghanistan provides protection for freedom of religion. The
Government of Afghanistan will ensure that the constitutional rights of its citizens,
international principles, and the due judicial process are respected and implemented."
------
I guess they should specify what religion they are protecting the freedoms of...
Posted by: Foehammer at March 24, 2006 9:07 PM
Ronin,
My experiences with Arab-Muslim soldiers have left me with a similar view. I was shocked by the lack of discipline in the various Arab-Muslim units I have trained with (Kuwaiti, Saudi, UAE, Egyptian, Jordanian, among others). The officers were spoiled, rich, fat, weaklings. They were in their leadership position based on anything but merit: Family connections, etc. Anyone with rank/power abuse it against those beneath. The professionalism is always non-existent. Everything is "if God be willing", which means they will never be on time or do what they promise.
Suicide-murder operations require no courage or skill. Pregnant women can commit these type of operations. If you are going to commit suicide, you are not facing your enemy like a man. You are not taking a risk of life or death. True courage is taking some kind of risk and having a life worth living. Weak individuals commit suicide out of cowardice. We don't praise them in the West. They are cowards. Muslims cannot fight like men. Frankly, they are the worst cowards, and yet scare so many because of their ruthlessness against civilians.
In some ways, these weak, skinny Muslim men are the most insecure humans on the face of the Earth. Their inferiority complex makes suicide-murder the perfect escape. They can have loser lives, and yet find some way to gain praise within Islam.
I would love to have some of these "tough guy" Al Quaeda go hand-to-hand with any American Ranger. They will not. They will blow themselves up out of weakness and cowardice. They will cut the heads off helpless prisoners. However, they will not face us man to man.
Don't forget this aspect of our enemy. When it comes to a true fight, they don't have a chance.
Posted by: hello123 at March 24, 2006 9:12 PM
Can't you see that the muslims see themselves as Abraham's rightful seed? Are you bearing fruit by your posts? Or are your caustic remarks making those that might see light, see darkness instead?
Posted by: Just_Linda at March 24, 2006 08:39 PM
----------------
Just-Linda,
wake up and smell the dead innocent non-muslims across the world who were murdered by Muslims.
If you believe that you can make peace and convert the muslims to permanent peaceful ways, move to the Middle East and try.
Your high morals and ideals will get you killed in dealing with Muslims. Muslims have no peace or empathy for the rest of the world or for you.
Islam started this war and it will not end until there is only one victor and that is going to be the civilized nations of the world.
I intend on seeing this to the end.
Prepared, armed and ready.
The Texican.
Freedom, the only choice at any cost.
at March 24, 2006 9:21 PM
Hello123, the first muslim warrior I ever met was surrendering, crying holding a leaflet and screaming "George Bush, George Bush". No fight to the death in that guy. I remember vividly muslim pow’s curling into balls and crying when aircraft flew over them. They had no concept we owned the aircraft and they were out of the fight. I have met too many to count since and some we even called allies but my opinion of them, their armies, soldiers and people has only gone down. Controlled from birth by that evil book, I am not sure any of them are capable of independent thought.
Posted by: Ronin at March 24, 2006 9:22 PM
Well
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